Martial Arts & Religion

[Lucas]

being a minion is pretty good gig. great benefit package

[Scott R. Brown]

being a minion is pretty good gig. great benefit package

Lots of blood to drink, huh?

[rett]

I can't tell you how many times I have seen "critical thinkers" ripped to pieces in in a basic philosophy class, much less a theology one.
Critical thinkers are great, except that they tend to NOT apply that very thinking to their own views.

At least they actually tried, and put their ideas out there for discussion.

Unlike someone who just says "critical thinkers would rip you guyz to to shreds" and then posts a cartoon guy having an assburger.

[rett]

Lao Tzu recognized this when he stated, "The Tao that can be defined is not the 'True/Eternal' Tao."


That's a good definition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not entirely, this view presumes a few things that many people accept without question.

Namely "God knows all things". One must define God first and what knowing is and just what "all" things are. If you have a too narrow of a perspective on all of these then you will come to an erroneous conclusion.

For example: If God truly knows everything, and is omnipotent, then he both knows everything and doesn't know anything at all. Because if he didn't also know nothing at all he couldn't be omnipotent.

The problem then is not with the logic, but with our presumed definitions of god, knowing and "things" which are inadequate to the task of making a determination at all under these circumstances!

The whole Omnipotent and Omniscient thing is one of the great debates in Theology BUT most are comfortable with:
God knows all he CHOOSES to know
God can do all he chooses to do that doesn't go against God's nature.

[sanjuro_ronin]

At least they actually tried, and put their ideas out there for discussion.

Unlike someone who just says "critical thinkers would rip to to shreds" and then posts a cartoon guy having an assburger.

Ciritical thinking is one of the first things taught in Theology.
You are taught and exposed to every ( or close to every) form of critique of every doctrine, why they are, how they came to be and what are the orthodox and unorthodox responses to them.
It is up to the individual to decide which, if any, fits there "mindset".

[Lucas]

Lots of blood to drink, huh?

I'm telling you, you havn't lived until you have danced out of control, drunk on the blood of your fallen enemies.

[Scott R. Brown]

That's a good definition.

Shhh!! Don't tell anyone! It'll be our little secret!!!

No one is watching us, right?


At least they actually tried, and put their ideas out there for discussion.

Unlike someone who just says "critical thinkers would rip you guyz to to shreds" and then posts a cartoon guy having an assburger.

Ass burgers are comfort foods for the insecure!


The whole Omnipotent and Omniscient thing is one of the great debates in Theology BUT most are comfortable with:
God knows all he CHOOSES to know
God can do all he chooses to do that doesn't go against God's nature.

I prefer, "God does whatever he wants!" If he wants to go against his nature, he will, if he doesn't he wont't!:eek:


I'm telling you, you havn't lived until you have danced out of control, drunk on the blood of your fallen enemies.

Don't forget the nubile naked virgins, who want ONLY YOU, that you get to dance with, THAT is the BEST part!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I prefer, "God does whatever he wants!" If he wants to go against his nature, he will, if he doesn't he wont't!:eek:




Well, if God goes against his nature then he isn't God, is he?

[Lucas]

if god is real, and god is the creator of all, then wouldnt it be god that set for what we see as 'reality based limitations'. if that is the case, then it is only our perception of reality and its scientific boundaries that we experience, not necessarily the true limits of what can be. who is to say, with our truly limited ability to percieve the cosmos' that what is the make up of our reality, is the same across the galaxies? who is to say the elements in which we interact are the only elements across the universe?

this reality is an illusion. simply a construct of what is necessary for things to be exactly as they are.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, if God goes against his nature then he isn't God, is he?

It is our own limitation that imposes a definable nature to God. God cannot have a definable nature, so when I say he may go against his nature, it isn't truly his nature, but against our limited impression of what we "THINK" his nature is!

In essence God has no definable nature, so in a sense he has no nature at all. These are all terms we use to try to discuss something that cannot be discussed, to understand something that cannot be understood and to know something that cannot be known!;)

[Lucas]

know something that cannot be known!;)

i know right!!??!

[sanjuro_ronin]

if god is real, and god is the creator of all, then wouldnt it be god that set for what we see as 'reality based limitations'. if that is the case, then it is only our perception of reality and its scientific boundaries that we experience, not necessarily the true limits of what can be. who is to say, with our truly limited ability to percieve the cosmos' that what is the make up of our reality, is the same across the galaxies? who is to say the elements in which we interact are the only elements across the universe?

this reality is an illusion. simply a construct of what is necessary for things to be exactly as they are.

We do NOT know the creative process that God used ( If God created the universe) and I for one have no problem with evolution being that creative force ( if not in the exact for we believe it to be currently).
I don't think God sets limits to how we perceive reality or in what way we can exert our free will.
We have a limited way to UNDERSTAND reality but we can "imagine" it far beyond our perception and that may be the key to what reality may yet be proven to be.

[Scott R. Brown]

if god is real, and god is the creator of all, then wouldnt it be god that set for what we see as 'reality based limitations'. if that is the case, then it is only our perception of reality and its scientific boundaries that we experience, not necessarily the true limits of what can be. who is to say, with our truly limited ability to percieve the cosmos' that what is the make up of our reality, is the same across the galaxies? who is to say the elements in which we interact are the only elements across the universe?

this reality is an illusion. simply a construct of what is necessary for things to be exactly as they are.

There must be rules and limits to every game. All science really does is inform us of the rules as they are able, which, of course is limited according to the artificially constructed rules of science! Break the artificial rules of science and you learn something else about reality, but even that system of knowledge has rules that limit it as well.

We can't win no matter what we do!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is our own limitation that imposes a definable nature to God. God cannot have a definable nature, so when I say he may go against his nature, it isn't truly his nature, but against our limited impression of what we "THINK" his nature is!

In essence God has no definable nature, so in a sense he has no nature at all. These are all terms we use to try to discuss something that cannot be discussed, to understand something that cannot be understood and to know something that cannot be known!;)

*golf clap*
Correct sir.
Although one can argue that If God exists AND wants Us to know Him( a big if I grant you) then he must be able to be known by Us.
As such, God can have a "defined" nature that we can understand.

[Scott R. Brown]

i know right!!??!

But do you know left?

[Scott R. Brown]

*golf clap*
Correct sir.
Although one can argue that If God exists AND wants Us to know Him( a big if I grant you) then he must be able to be known by Us.
As such, God can have a "defined" nature that we can understand.

If this is true than we will be able to know him according to the rules by which he allows us to know him, but that still will be a relative knowing and not a true knowing, unless he allows us a true knowing, which I am not prepared to say is impossible either!

[Scott R. Brown]

BTW:

It is my impression that all individual minds are nothing more than God, knowing himself through play!

[Lucas]

But do you know left?

only on tuesdays, and since today is thursday, i wont know left until i go right to tuesday. as long as i dont go directly to jail, dont pass go, and dont collect my $200.00 i'll make it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if this is true than we will be able to know him according to the rules by which he allows us to know him, but that still will be a relative knowing and not a true knowing, unless he allows us a true knowing, which i am not prepared to say is impossible either!

i know !!!!

[Lucas]

so when you guys say 'allows' does this not leave room for conscious decision to know? for instance, if i decided to know, would that be withheld if i wasnt allowed? have i been 86ed?

[Scott R. Brown]

only on tuesdays, and since today is thursday, i wont know left until i go right to tuesday. as long as i dont go directly to jail, dont pass go, and dont collect my $200.00 i'll make it.

I have confidence you will make it!:D


i know !!!!

I thought you might!;)

[Scott R. Brown]

so when you guys say 'allows' does this not leave room for conscious decision to know? for instance, if i decided to know, would that be withheld if i wasnt allowed? have i been 86ed?

We would never know would we, because we wouldn't be allowed!!

Doesn't sound fair does it?. But this is mere intellectual play really. I am not prepared to say we cannot know God completely, except that we still create our own limitations by defining knowing and completely and God, Etc.

As long as we impose a definition, we are limiting, and thus creating our own boundaries to knowing, whatever that is!

[Lucas]

is anyone else as excited to die as i am? i'm in no hurry or rush to get there but i think its going to be quite the experience. if i simply cease to exist thats fine, because 'i' wont be around anymore to know. but if i dont, its going to be one hell of a ride.

[Scott R. Brown]

is anyone else as excited to die as i am? i'm in no hurry or rush to get there but i think its going to be quite the experience. if i simply cease to exist thats fine, because 'i' wont be around anymore to know. but if i dont, its going to be one hell of a ride.

Very nearly my own thoughts. I too am in no hurry, but it is a journey into the great unknown, and that is exciting!

Either way we have nothing to lose!

[sanjuro_ronin]

is anyone else as excited to die as i am? i'm in no hurry or rush to get there but i think its going to be quite the experience. if i simply cease to exist thats fine, because 'i' wont be around anymore to know. but if i dont, its going to be one hell of a ride.

In a hurry? No.
Afraid of what comes? Absolutely not.
Death is simply the final stage of THIS physical world.
As a Christian, much like another Paul, I am at odds with "staying here" and wanting to return to My Lord and be at home, finally.
As a "scientific soul", for lack of a better world, I am looking forward to what the universe holds.

[Lucas]

Either way we have nothing to lose!

and no choice!

[Lucas]

In a hurry? No.
Afraid of what comes? Absolutely not.
Death is simply the final stage of THIS physical world.
As a Christian, much like another Paul, I am at odds with "staying here" and wanting to return to My Lord and be at home, finally.
As a "scientific soul", for lack of a better world, I am looking forward to what the universe holds.

Save me a spot! :D

[RenDaHai]

@Ronin and Scott,

I've lost my place now but
I agree with both your last responses to me.


Dao Ke Dao, Fei Chang Dao, Ming Ke Ming, Fei Chang Ming!

Kind of like the Uncertainty Principle... When you measure it you change it.

Perhaps the Probability Wave can never be probed.

[Drake]

At least they actually tried, and put their ideas out there for discussion.

Unlike someone who just says "critical thinkers would rip you guyz to to shreds" and then posts a cartoon guy having an assburger.

I don't have time for it, is why. If you haven't noticed, things went to **** down here.

AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POST THE OBVIOUS. :mad:

For ****'s sake, look it up yourself. And stop acting like some emo kid in high school making up philosophical rules and basically role-playing like some AD&D player (nothing wrong with AD&D players, because they know it's fantasy).

If you don't get it, which you don't, then no amount of posting on a kung fu website is going to change anything. Now, if you'll excuse me... I have **** to do.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't have time for it, is why. If you haven't noticed, things went to **** down here.

AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POST THE OBVIOUS. :mad:

For ****'s sake, look it up yourself. And stop acting like some emo kid in high school making up philosophical rules and basically role-playing like some AD&D player (nothing wrong with AD&D players, because they know it's fantasy).

If you don't get it, which you don't, then no amount of posting on a kung fu website is going to change anything. Now, if you'll excuse me... I have **** to do.

Hey Dude! I thank you with all my heart for your service to our country! You have all respect possible from me!

I understand you have a world of pressure right now! Try to keep in mind this.is just a pastime.

Relax.and let it go.for a bit if you have too much on your plate right now. If it isn't fun at the moment, come on back.when you are less pressured. we'll understand!

thanks again for all your hard work and sacrafice for those of us here living the easy life!;)

[rett]

I don't have time for it, is why. If you haven't noticed, things went to **** down here.

AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POST THE OBVIOUS. :mad:

For ****'s sake, look it up yourself. And stop acting like some emo kid in high school making up philosophical rules and basically role-playing like some AD&D player (nothing wrong with AD&D players, because they know it's fantasy).

If you don't get it, which you don't, then no amount of posting on a kung fu website is going to change anything. Now, if you'll excuse me... I have **** to do.

I'm chiming in with Scott. I appreciate the things you're doing and can't imagine the pressure you guys must be facing.

That said, careful of the possible headlines: GI snaps, goes awol, and intellectually massacres forum denizens.

We'll be calling for your head.;)

(sorry if it's too soon to joke about that)

But if you DO find some time... what I meant was it would be fun if you did try your hand at picking apart some arguments... you might be surprised at what we can sling back.

Look WHAT up myself? Get what? sheesh....

[rett]

Ciritical thinking is one of the first things taught in Theology.
You are taught and exposed to every ( or close to every) form of critique of every doctrine, why they are, how they came to be and what are the orthodox and unorthodox responses to them.
It is up to the individual to decide which, if any, fits there "mindset".

Emo's a word that didn't exist in my day, but here goes...

I never studied theology but I did take a bunch of philosophy courses with good profs who ran us through the arguments and the whole back-and-forth. Pre-socratics and plato, the rationalists, the empiricists, formal logic, advanced logic... some other stuff, I forget. An interesting part of it was how many assertions arose just because they were logically needed to uphold a cherished assumption.

So I totally agree with you about mindset coming first. You even see this in physics or cosmology with the stereotyped-but-true Indian cosmologist – fully trained in physics – looking for evidence of cyclic universes, and the Christian cosmologists looking for a single big bang point of creation. Working backwards from a mindset.

My mindset, as far back as I remember, has chimed with Buddhist ideas, while Christianity scared me. It was like a haunted house. I went to sunday school but I thought Church was creepy, the hymns were sad, the organ sounded depressing, the wafers and wine thing was just plain weird. Wrong mindset I guess.

Interdependent origination. Constant change. No inherent self or essence. This cluster of ideas is what was missing from most of the philosophers we studied. A few glimpses here and there mocked by Plato as the "runny nose" view of the universe. This always seemed the direction of light and goodness.

And so I take my place in this thread: a runny nose seeking a hanky.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Emo's a word that didn't exist in my day, but here goes...

I never studied theology but I did take a bunch of philosophy courses with good profs who ran us through the arguments and the whole back-and-forth. Pre-socratics and plato, the rationalists, the empiricists, formal logic, advanced logic... some other stuff, I forget. An interesting part of it was how many assertions arose just because they were logically needed to uphold a cherished assumption.

So I totally agree with you about mindset coming first. You even see this in physics or cosmology with the stereotyped-but-true Indian cosmologist – fully trained in physics – looking for evidence of cyclic universes, and the Christian cosmologists looking for a single big bang point of creation. Working backwards from a mindset.

My mindset, as far back as I remember, has chimed with Buddhist ideas, while Christianity scared me. It was like a haunted house. I went to sunday school but I thought Church was creepy, the hymns were sad, the organ sounded depressing, the wafers and wine thing was just plain weird. Wrong mindset I guess.

Interdependent origination. Constant change. No inherent self or essence. This cluster of ideas is what was missing from most of the philosophers we studied. A few glimpses here and there mocked by Plato as the "runny nose" view of the universe. This always seemed the direction of light and goodness.

And so I take my place in this thread: a runny nose seeking a hanky.

Mindset is what creates our preconceived notions and we all have them.
When I used to go to church because I had to, I hated it.
When I used to go to a mosque or syngouge I used to think how strange and wrong their customs were.
As my eyes opened to God, I see His Hand everywhere and I see the enormous potential we have as humans is we just live truly in "His Image".
There are many paths to God and they exist because of our cultural trappings and the preconceived notions that they created.
From what I have studied about naturalism, it doesn't seem to have the answers to the questions that its answers create,
Of course the same can be said about religion.
The first thing we have to do is admit that we do NOT know the answers and be open to that, since we don't know, we can't rule something out because it doesn't "fit" into our preconceived notion of what we THINK something should be.

[TaichiMantis]

In a hurry? No.
Afraid of what comes? Absolutely not.
Death is simply the final stage of THIS physical world.
As a Christian, much like another Paul, I am at odds with "staying here" and wanting to return to My Lord and be at home, finally.
As a "scientific soul", for lack of a better world, I am looking forward to what the universe holds.

Who knew? Another Christian...;)

[Syn7]

Good stuff.

And for those who want proof the double slit single electron experiment is worth having a look at.


When we interpret Quantum Mechanics it is common to hold the Copenhagen View or the Many Worlds view (personally I like the former).

The Copenhagen as you observed above considers the object existing as a Probability Wave until this wave is forced to collapse by measurement. Once it collapses the other probabilities cease to exist and the object takes a definite position.

The many Worlds interpretation considers that every possibility along the wave becomes manifest in a separate universe. Personally I don't like this one for several physical reasons, but more importantly (for me) from intuition.

The lesser Known 'Many Minds' interpretation may be of interest here as part of this topic. This proposes that the many worlds are split inside the mind of the observer as opposed to being physical universes.

This is the part of Physics that I feel starts to occupy a similar space with spirituality.

The Probability wave itself, when it collapses does it choose a place on the wave by some kind of quantum of free will, or is it genuinely random? Is anything genuinely random? Developments of Quantum Theory will change the way we view the world, physically, philosophically and spiritually.

Yup... We can be friends!

The many worlds theory is interesting but I dunno. I got right into it when I was reading Edward Wittens work. M-Theory is fun to think about. It's just so freakin subjective, u know!
Possibility=actuality is a hard one to swallow.


I don't really distinguish the diff between theoretical physics and philosophy since they are both technically the same thing.



Thomas Young was the man, by the way.

Most people look at me funny when I talk about the duality. Most folks are only aware of three states of matter. Are they even teaching the 4th state in HS yet? Not when I was there. I got in trouble for bringing it up. I was a disruption. My teacher was a GuideBook teacher. Everything she knew was from the teachers guide. I think she was just mad that she couldn't answer a 15 year olds physics question.

[Syn7]

Why would a being OUTSIDE our known reality have to conform to anything inside what we CURRENTLY perceive as our reality?

How can something real be outside reality? If it's outside reality it isn't real.:o

[Syn7]

Naw, I am somewhat of a genius myself, I figured it out on my own.

I am one of those guys that is both, dumb as a door and too smart for my own good!!

Did I mention I am a narcist too?:eek::D

Don't fall in then!!! The lake is simply looking at itself in your eyes!

[Scott R. Brown]

Who knew? Another Christian...;)

You don't know any other Christians?


Don't fall in then!!! The lake is simply looking at itself in your eyes!

When I am busy gazing at myself, all I see is ME. I don't even notice the lake!:eek:

[rett]

Mindset is what creates our preconceived notions and we all have them.
When I used to go to church because I had to, I hated it.
When I used to go to a mosque or syngouge I used to think how strange and wrong their customs were.
As my eyes opened to God, I see His Hand everywhere and I see the enormous potential we have as humans is we just live truly in "His Image".
There are many paths to God and they exist because of our cultural trappings and the preconceived notions that they created.
From what I have studied about naturalism, it doesn't seem to have the answers to the questions that its answers create,
Of course the same can be said about religion.
The first thing we have to do is admit that we do NOT know the answers and be open to that, since we don't know, we can't rule something out because it doesn't "fit" into our preconceived notion of what we THINK something should be.


I totally agree about the importance of acknowledging that at the most important level we just don't know. Driven by perplexity perhaps we can get to where we are at ease with uncertainty.

Where you see God's hand everywhere maybe someone else sees the workings of Dharma (nature) everywhere.

Physical science is, by definition, physical. It can help us dispell the illusion of a separate self by helping us see our bodies as temporary formations of elements intimately linked to the entire cosmos.

Where religions go further is that they write the ethical and mental dimension into reality. As the constituents of our bodies are linked to suns and physical forces on a cosmic scale, so the components of our personalities are linked together in time and space in a great web. But here it's not observable and testable in the same way as physical theories. It's no longer scientific thinking.

Arguments happen between religion and science because they use the same words "truth" "believe" "is" but the words actually mean different things in the different domains. Activistic creationists are a warning example of the intellectual and moral trainwreck of mixing up these concepts.

If we relate to bad things that happen to us as the fruition of karma, or as trials to bring us closer to God, that changes us in a valuable way.

This kind of thinking can coexist in the same person as scientific thinking. There are plenty of great scientists who were also religious.

Sorry if this is all just emo posturing and "not getting it and never will" or whatever. I'm all too happy to have the critical thinkers rip it to shreds.

But it's the direction I've decided to walk.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can something real be outside reality? If it's outside reality it isn't real.:o

Who's reality ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where you see God's hand everywhere maybe someone else sees the workings of Dharma (nature) everywhere.


Bu God I mean the "name" we give to the creative force, not the judeo-christian God ( though of course I personally believe them to be the same).


Physical science is, by definition, physical. It can help us dispell the illusion of a separate self by helping us see our bodies as temporary formations of elements intimately linked to the entire cosmos.

It CAN do many things but is limited to OUR ability to preceive reality in our limited way.


Where religions go further is that they write the ethical and mental dimension into reality. As the constituents of our bodies are linked to suns and physical forces on a cosmic scale, so the components of our personalities are linked together in time and space in a great web. But here it's not observable and testable in the same way as physical theories. It's no longer scientific thinking.

Science tries to answer HOW, Religion, why.


Arguments happen between religion and science because they use the same words "truth" "believe" "is" but the words actually mean different things in the different domains. Activistic creationists are a warning example of the intellectual and moral trainwreck of mixing up these concepts.

Sure.


If we relate to bad things that happen to us as the fruition of karma, or as trials to bring us closer to God, that changes us in a valuable way.

Agreed.


This kind of thinking can coexist in the same person as scientific thinking. There are plenty of great scientists who were also religious.

Always have been and always will be probably.



Sorry if this is all just emo posturing and "not getting it and never will" or whatever. I'm all too happy to have the critical thinkers rip it to shreds.

But it's the direction I've decided to walk.

We each must find our own path and I wouldn't worry too much about "critical thinkers", far too many like the sound of their own voices and are under the impression that they are stating "something new".

[Syn7]

Who's reality ?

Mine, of course. it's the only perspective I have!


Actually, I was just joking before. Talkin' sh1t. Honestly I haven't ruled on whether reality is subjective, objective or some weird incomprehensible mix of the two. Really, I dunno. I could argue any of those points honestly and effectively. I don't tho, I'm far more interested in thinking it through on my own and hearing what others have to say about it.


Again, like the god proof argument, without clear definitions everything being said is rather pointless as far as achieving any sort of reasonable consensus is concerned.


If the point is to blurt out ideas for the sake of ideas, then that's something else altogether. There will be no communal growth tho.

You guys are sure pigeon holing critical thinking. Like anything it's susceptible to the process and the more honest the thinker the better the results. When the idea is to eliminate assumptions I find many assumptions get left behind and are taken for granted despite the mandate to do otherwise. Not everyone who calls themselves a critical thinker is the same, they don't get the same results and they are just as open to being diluted with ego as any scientist or creationist. But that doesn't discount them any more than it does the others. REAL peer review and subjection to scrutiny is still and always will be the best way to achieve reasonable consensus.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Bu God I mean the "name" we give to the creative force, not the judeo-christian God ( though of course I personally believe them to be the same).

Since the beginning of my exploration of organized religion, I've always thought of God, Allah, and Buddha as essentially the same being, speaking to various cultures differently. I really don't see their base teachings as that different...in practice yes, in dogma somewhat, in ritual they are different. I read this great book called the Jew and the Lotus, it showed how compatible Jewish Mysticism and Buddhist thought were...very enlightening.

[Syn7]

If there were a god it would be none of the above and all of the above. As far as I'm concerned most religious schools of thought are saying the same thing but from their own cultural perspective. Human beings have traditionally been hard put to accept other cultural perspectives. The more alien the more it's pushed away. That is the cause of all the debate between the 'majors', not actual differences in morals and ethics, for the most part. These things get politicized and they lose their whole purpose. Now it's just a clusterfukc of b1tching and whining. Most of the 'real' work is done by these peoples 'lessers'.

[wenshu]

57. Refutation of Bishop Berkeley
After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

http://www.samueljohnson.com/refutati.html

Scott you should just make this your avatar.

http://www.wisdomsupreme.com/im/george-berkeley.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

If there were a god it would be none of the above and all of the above. As far as I'm concerned most religious schools of thought are saying the same thing but from their own cultural perspective. Human beings have traditionally been hard put to accept other cultural perspectives. The more alien the more it's pushed away. That is the cause of all the debate between the 'majors', not actual differences in morals and ethics, for the most part. These things get politicized and they lose their whole purpose. Now it's just a clusterfukc of b1tching and whining. Most of the 'real' work is done by these peoples 'lessers'.

I agree, the exceptions being those religions that quite obviously advocate things that are, well..."controversial".
Things that one can quite obviously understand to be detrimental to society in both the short term and long term ( things like refusing medical treatment, isolationism, advocating violence against others, etc).
Of course this is subjective because what one culture may view as "wrong" another my view as quite "correct".
Still, the are some(possible) universal truisms, one that comes to mind is that almost every culture would agree that bad things happening to THEM is wrong ( though some my view it as deserving) and this goes to the individual level as well.

[Scott R. Brown]

57. Refutation of Bishop Berkeley
After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

Scott you should just make this your avatar.

http://www.wisdomsupreme.com/im/george-berkeley.jpg

I have been patiently waiting for someone to bring this up!:D:p

Unfortunately it is NOT a refutation!:D:p

Kicking a stone and feeling pain is not a proof, it is a function of a sensory system that communicates with a mind. Sever any nerve along the path of the sensory system and pain does not exist. Condition the mind properly through meditation and pain does not exist either.

A tree falling in the forest does NOT make a sound. Sound is a function of a sensory input being transferred to a mind that interprets that sensation as a sound.

The vibrations of the tree falling stimulates the atmosphere creating waves that strike a tympanic membrane. This stimulation is transported the brain using a nervous system. If there is no receptive system (nervous system) and interpretative system (a mind), there is no sound, regardless of the transport of the v!bratory (yes v!bratory will get you *******) waves through the atmosphere.

It is the same with any sensation, including pain.

If one chooses to argue that it is not the pain that demonstrates the stone to be real, but the fact it stops the foots motion, it must be remembered, that the same thing occurs in a computer game and a cartoon. It is merely a rule of the artificially constructed system and does not demonstrate it is "non-ideal" in substance, only that there is an inherent conformation of form within an artificially constructed system to the rules of the system within which it is constructed.

At any rate, if there is no mind available to experience the foot bouncing off a rock, there is no foot to bounce off a rock. It requires a mind to recognize the foot is a foot, the rock is a rock, the foot striking the rock and the foot bouncing off the rock.

It even requires a mind to separate inherently holistic phenomena into separate entities that interact with one and other. But the mind may also perceive phenomena holistically without any separation of event and entities into separate and distinct parts. Buddhist philosophy would say this is the inherent function of mind and is lost when mind is trained to separate entities from one and other in the first place, which results in the artificially constructed world in which most of us believe we live.

And have forgotten is an artificially constructed world!

[David Jamieson]

...and then, Scott blinked out of existence somehow.

sound logic, borders on nihilism... :p

[Scott R. Brown]

...and then, Scott blinked out of existence somehow.

sound logic, borders on nihilism... :p

I have use of a mind, therefore something exists that, apparently, cannot blink out of existence. In order to blink out of existence, it would require an absence of mind!!

If this occurred, the part of mind I call ME, would not notice any loss!:p:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ever notice how the vagina is shaped like a taco?
Coincidence?
I think not.

[Scott R. Brown]

Ever notice how the vagina is shaped like a taco?
Coincidence?
I think not.

Not trying to be a jerk or argumentative here, buuuuuUUUUUUuuuutttt........:D

you are referring to the "vulva" not the vagina.......:eek::p

Just saying!

Don't hit me! I am fragile!:o:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not trying to be a jerk or argumentative here, buuuuuUUUUUUuuuutttt........:D

you are referring to the "vulva" not the vagina.......:eek::p

Just saying!

Don't hit me! I am fragile!:o:(

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-SlDmdfomckZ8IR0ScIE48Cw821nxCVLteNw3iagxmnFUQ3EO

[David Jamieson]

How did we get here?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How did we get here?

We never left....:D

[Scott R. Brown]

How did we get here?

In the world of men, pu$$y reigns queen!

[Lucas]

whats kind of funny is if you listen to steven hawking he says: “One of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect. Perfection simply doesn't exist.....Without imperfection, neither you nor I would exist”

yet he also said, in regards to the big bang creation theory on his special about the development of the universe, that for that to have actually happened, it required the exact perfect elements to be in place at the moment of the big bang....he hinted that that one solitary instance of perfection could indeed lead to scientific question of are there other powers at play.

just kind of interesting.

“So Einstein was wrong when he said, "God does not play dice." Consideration of black holes suggests, not only that God does play dice, but that he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen.”

“God abhors a naked singularity.”

“Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention. (The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible.”

“I believe the simplest explanation is, there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization that there probably is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


this one is funny:

“I don't know what my IQ is. People who gloat about their IQ's are losers”
― Stephen Hawking

[Scott R. Brown]

whats kind of funny is if you listen to steven hawking he says: “One of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect. Perfection simply doesn't exist.....Without imperfection, neither you nor I would exist”― Stephen Hawking

This is why I have never been impressed with Hawking!

If he is so smart, why can he not see that "perfection" is an artificial construct and is inherently a man made idea that does not exist separate from man's creation of it.

Just so, if one of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect, then the universe is supposed to be imperfect. Which means it is perfectly imperfect.

He may not gloat about his IQ, but he gloats none the less, and makes comments about subjects he knows nothing about, and apparently cannot percieve the simplest flaws in his own comments!

Please pardon me now while I go gloat....

I am a narcist after all!!!:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

whats kind of funny is if you listen to steven hawking he says: “One of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect. Perfection simply doesn't exist.....Without imperfection, neither you nor I would exist”

Perfection is relative and so is imperfection. :p


yet he also said, in regards to the big bang creation theory on his special about the development of the universe, that for that to have actually happened, it required the exact perfect elements to be in place at the moment of the big bang....he hinted that that one solitary instance of perfection could indeed lead to scientific question of are there other powers at play.

The "fine tuning" of the universe.


just kind of interesting.

Understate much?



“So Einstein was wrong when he said, "God does not play dice." Consideration of black holes suggests, not only that God does play dice, but that he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen.”

Einstein is quite correct, just because we don't see the "reason" for something in the universe doesn't mean there isn't one.
Of all people Hawkins should know that.


“God abhors a naked singularity.”

Things are the way they are because they could be no other way.


“Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention. (The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible.”


Augustine of Hippo postulated as much 1600 years ago.


“I believe the simplest explanation is, there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization that there probably is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


So the simplest explanation is that things simply are this way because that is the way they are?

Jeez, where did I hear that before ?

[Lucas]

http://meowcheese.com/files/lolpics/2008/04/im-batman-.jpg

[wenshu]

I have been patiently waiting for someone to bring this up!:D:p

Unfortunately it is NOT a refutation!:D:p

Kicking a stone and feeling pain is not a proof, it is a function of a sensory system that communicates with a mind. Sever any nerve along the path of the sensory system and pain does not exist. Condition the mind properly through meditation and pain does not exist either.

A tree falling in the forest does NOT make a sound. Sound is a function of a sensory input being transferred to a mind that interprets that sensation as a sound.

The vibrations of the tree falling stimulates the atmosphere creating waves that strike a tympanic membrane. This stimulation is transported the brain using a nervous system. If there is no receptive system (nervous system) and interpretative system (a mind), there is no sound, regardless of the transport of the v!bratory (yes v!bratory will get you *******) waves through the atmosphere.

It is the same with any sensation, including pain.

If one chooses to argue that it is not the pain that demonstrates the stone to be real, but the fact it stops the foots motion, it must be remembered, that the same thing occurs in a computer game and a cartoon. It is merely a rule of the artificially constructed system and does not demonstrate it is "non-ideal" in substance, only that there is an inherent conformation of form within an artificially constructed system to the rules of the system within which it is constructed.

At any rate, if there is no mind available to experience the foot bouncing off a rock, there is no foot to bounce off a rock. It requires a mind to recognize the foot is a foot, the rock is a rock, the foot striking the rock and the foot bouncing off the rock.

It even requires a mind to separate inherently holistic phenomena into separate entities that interact with one and other. But the mind may also perceive phenomena holistically without any separation of event and entities into separate and distinct parts. Buddhist philosophy would say this is the inherent function of mind and is lost when mind is trained to separate entities from one and other in the first place, which results in the artificially constructed world in which most of us believe we live.

And have forgotten is an artificially constructed world!

Whatever you say George.

[SoCo KungFu]

So the simplest explanation is that things simply are this way because that is the way they are?

Jeez, where did I hear that before ?

Saying that X isn't the case is not the same as saying, just because. That's the greatest hang up I see with creationists.

[SoCo KungFu]

It CAN do many things but is limited to OUR ability to preceive reality in our limited way.


Reality, by definition, is reality, regardless of what you perceive.



Science tries to answer HOW, Religion, why.


Science on a regular basis answers both of those questions to a multitude of topics. Evolution itself is both a how and a why

[Syn7]

I agree, the exceptions being those religions that quite obviously advocate things that are, well..."controversial".
Things that one can quite obviously understand to be detrimental to society in both the short term and long term ( things like refusing medical treatment, isolationism, advocating violence against others, etc).
Of course this is subjective because what one culture may view as "wrong" another my view as quite "correct".
Still, the are some(possible) universal truisms, one that comes to mind is that almost every culture would agree that bad things happening to THEM is wrong ( though some my view it as deserving) and this goes to the individual level as well.

Maybe 200 years from now we will look back at North Americans in our era and be disgusted at how enslaved and fraudulent we were. Some folks sure feel free right now though......

maybe maybe maybe.................


All religions have multiple interpretations. It would be unfair to brush all Christians with one stroke. Just like it would be wrong to do that with those who follow the Koran. There are many who interpret the same verses differently.

Russia just tried to ban a Hindu text because they felt it was intolerant to other religions. Of course Russia is leaving the dark ages and the people spoke and it got knocked down (conveniently right before Putin visits India, nice timing:rolleyes:). Because they are mostly Christian, Jewish and Muslim they didn't have any issue trashing Hinduism. As far as I know the new and old testament as well as the Koran are ALL outright hostile to other beliefs in some parts. Some sections preach tolerance and some preach intolerance. They are all very conflicted within themselves.

[Syn7]

Ever notice how the vagina is shaped like a taco?
Coincidence?
I think not.

Is that really how you eat a taco, SON!:eek:

[Syn7]

Not trying to be a jerk or argumentative here, buuuuuUUUUUUuuuutttt........:D

you are referring to the "vulva" not the vagina.......:eek::p

Just saying!

Don't hit me! I am fragile!:o:(

Either way, it clearly proves the Jesus Christ is the one and only true God.

[Syn7]

I have been patiently waiting for someone to bring this up!:D:p

Unfortunately it is NOT a refutation!:D:p

Kicking a stone and feeling pain is not a proof, it is a function of a sensory system that communicates with a mind. Sever any nerve along the path of the sensory system and pain does not exist. Condition the mind properly through meditation and pain does not exist either.

No amount of mental conditioning can make the pain cease to exist. You can overcome the pain, but it's still there. Anyone who has ever actually put this in to practice knows this to be true. You can shut it up in a closet and lock the door, but you can't make it not exist.

Of course severing nerves is something else all together.

Oh, and the world does go 'round without you.

[Syn7]

whats kind of funny is if you listen to steven hawking he says: “One of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect. Perfection simply doesn't exist.....Without imperfection, neither you nor I would exist”

yet he also said, in regards to the big bang creation theory on his special about the development of the universe, that for that to have actually happened, it required the exact perfect elements to be in place at the moment of the big bang....he hinted that that one solitary instance of perfection could indeed lead to scientific question of are there other powers at play.

just kind of interesting.

“So Einstein was wrong when he said, "God does not play dice." Consideration of black holes suggests, not only that God does play dice, but that he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen.”

“God abhors a naked singularity.”

“Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention. (The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible.”

“I believe the simplest explanation is, there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization that there probably is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


this one is funny:

“I don't know what my IQ is. People who gloat about their IQ's are losers”
― Stephen Hawking

You should read Paul J. Steinhardt, Director of the Princeton Center for Theoretical Science who wrote a great paper on the case AGAINST inflation. You may enjoy it.

At the University of Oxford Roger Penrose did some great work too. He showed that the likelyhood of a flat uniform universe is mathematically unlikely with or without inflation but it turns out to be significantly less unlikely without inflation. He showed that without inflation the likelyhood was 10 to the googol power more likely than with inflation. That's an insane huge number. And it doesn't help the inflation theory out very much.

[GeneChing]

Maybe I'll split this off into a separate thread if they get the funding and actually make it.


FIGHT CHURCH (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1607935891/fight-church-documentary-about-christianity-and-mm)
A Documentary project in Los Angeles, CA by Daniel Junge & Bryan Storkel · send message



May 22, 2012
'Fight Church': Where religion meets mixed martial arts (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/popcandy/post/2012/05/fight-church-where-religion-meets-mixed-martial-arts/1#.T70jxdW6_q8)
By Whitney Matheson, USA TODAY
Updated 5h 44m ago

Finally, someone is making a movie that answers an important question:

"Can you love your neighbor as yourself and at the same time knee him in the face as hard as you can?"

That's a direct quote from Paul Burress, a pastor in Rochester, N.Y., who believes mixed martial arts can help bring people together. He and fellow fighters are profiled in Fight Church, a doc from directors Daniel Junge and Bryan Storkel.

Storkel tells me he has started a Kickstarter campaign to finish the film; he has raised almost $8,000 of his $30,000 goal and is offering incentives like DVDs and a credit in the movie to supporters.

The trailer was just posted. It's both compelling and horrifying to watch these guys -- some of the fighters are kids -- get bloody noses in the name of Jesus.

Says one fighter: "As I progress in my Christian life, I start to see a conflict. Is this having a positive impact on my Christianity?" Hmm, I wonder ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Christian pacificism ( or lack there of) has always been something quite facinating.
Jesus' lesson on "turn the other cheek" is NOT to be take out of context with the other lessons of which it was a part of.
All of Matthew Chapter 5 is a lesson in humilty and understanding of who and what God views as righteous, as correct and a lesson on who is blessed in the eyes of God.
Much of it is hard to understand, it was hard THEN and even harder NOW.
But in regards to the dealing of violence and those that wish to do as harm:
Personal Relationships

21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23“Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

31“It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; 32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40“If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Lucas]

im glad u ttt i forgot about this thread and had not seen all these responses!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is a lesson on how one breaks the circle of violence and hate and anger and the lesson is love.
Over the centuries some took the lesson of non-violence literally while others as only a "polite suggestion".
It was neither.
It was giving us understanding of how to stop violence and hate.
We all know the violence begets violence BUT we also know that there are times when we have NO CHOICE but to fight.
That is a far cry from going out of your way to actually FIGHT.
So, no, Christianity and fighting are NOT compatible.
Christ is the answer to fighting, not a REASON to fight nor a reason to hurt another at all.
Does Christianity have the potential to make a fighter less violent and perhaps a "better" person? to curtail the "killer" in a fighter? Yes it does BUT that does NOT involve CONTINUING to fight and hurt others.

[Lucas]

i always wondered why rape wasnt a commandment. its pretty bad stuff. id say worse than stealing by far.

[Lucas]

It is a lesson on how one breaks the circle of violence and hate and anger and the lesson is love.
Over the centuries some took the lesson of non-violence literally while others as only a "polite suggestion".
It was neither.
It was giving us understanding of how to stop violence and hate.
We all know the violence begets violence BUT we also know that there are times when we have NO CHOICE but to fight.
That is a far cry from going out of your way to actually FIGHT.
So, no, Christianity and fighting are NOT compatible.
Christ is the answer to fighting, not a REASON to fight nor a reason to hurt another at all.
Does Christianity have the potential to make a fighter less violent and perhaps a "better" person? to curtail the "killer" in a fighter? Yes it does BUT that does NOT involve CONTINUING to fight and hurt others.

what about entertainment fighting? like boxing or mma?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i always wondered why rape wasnt a commandment. its pretty bad stuff. id say worse than stealing by far.

Maybe you need to reword that, LOL !
Rape is prohibit under that "thou shall not covert anything of they neighbour".
Yes the OT levitcal laws make a provision in the case of rape but that is NOT condoning it, no more than our current laws that put a rapist in jail are condoning rape by rewarding the rapist with free room and board for as long as he is in jail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what about entertainment fighting? like boxing or mma?

A Christian has to make a personal conscience decision on those matters ( watching AND partaking of course).
But any christian must ask himself, would Christ be ok with me beating the crap out of one of my brothers for money?

[Lucas]

Maybe you need to reword that, LOL !
Rape is prohibit under that "thou shall not covert anything of they neighbour".
Yes the OT levitcal laws make a provision in the case of rape but that is NOT condoning it, no more than our current laws that put a rapist in jail are condoning rape by rewarding the rapist with free room and board for as long as he is in jail.

so then in this case is the word 'neighbor' more metaphorical in that meaning ANYONE at all? i mean in the past some pretty horrible things have been done to women throughout the ages in the christian nations.

[Lucas]

A Christian has to make a personal conscience decision on those matters ( watching AND partaking of course).
But any christian must ask himself, would Christ be ok with me beating the crap out of one of my brothers for money?

i would think jesus would be fine with it since both men are wanting to fight each other and not basing that around hate or melicious intentions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so then in this case is the word 'neighbor' more metaphorical in that meaning ANYONE at all? i mean in the past some pretty horrible things have been done to women throughout the ages in the christian nations.

Well, the Hebrews tended to view that law as applicable to themselves but yes the law was applied to others that were "neighbours" too.
Don't ever judge a religion or ideology by what people do that is AGAINST its core teachings.
Where in the verse I quote from Matthew would you get the impression that ANY type of violence or hate against ANYONE is acceptable?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i would think jesus would be fine with it since both men are wanting to fight each other and not basing that around hate or melicious intentions.

Accepting and being fine are two different things.
As CS Lewis said:
Eventually it comes down to two things - We say to God Thy will be done or God says to Us thy will be done.

[Lucas]

Well, the Hebrews tended to view that law as applicable to themselves but yes the law was applied to others that were "neighbours" too.
Don't ever judge a religion or ideology by what people do that is AGAINST its core teachings.
Where in the verse I quote from Matthew would you get the impression that ANY type of violence or hate against ANYONE is acceptable?

ya i getcha....that part about divorce is crazy. so basically if you get divorced as a woman and EVER meet another person, you've commited adultry? likewise if you marry a divorced woman you are also commiting adultry?


furthermore i must chastise you for making all of us here adulterers by posting those lusty women!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya i getcha....that part about divorce is crazy. so basically if you get divorced as a woman and EVER meet another person, you've commited adultry? likewise if you marry a divorced woman you are also commiting adultry?


furthermore i must chastise you for making all of us here adulterers by posting those lusty women!!!!

Well, you need to understand Jesus' INTENT behind that.
AT the time some law interpreters were allowing a man to divorce a woman for ANY reason whatsoever.
Jesus wanted to make VERY CLEAR the seriousness of marriage and how it was INTENDED to be.
You don't get married "just because", you don't get married with the understanding that if you don't "like it" you can get out.
No, that is NOT how it works, you must be of the correct mind and spirit and understand that it is for life.
So if you don't think you can do that with THAT person, don't get freaking married !
Now, Jesus made it clear that the ONLY justification for divorce was adultery and I think we all can agree that is THE reason, far more than any other.
Of course IF a man was violent with his wife there were penalties for that also and divorce would be acceptable under those terms also.
No one was excpeted to live under a cloud of hate and violence.
The point Jesus was making was NOT so much you can only divorce under such, but how very serious marriage is.

And yes, I am aware that "any man that lusts has committed adultery in his heart".

[David Jamieson]

Eventually it comes down to two things - We say to God Thy will be done or God says to Us thy will be done.

This only applies if you believe there is a god at all.

One cannot say, I believe there is a god and whether you do or not is irrelevant.

The entire conversation is castrated with bias at that point.

That's the thing with a belief. It's a belief. It's not a known. Not even to the believer. Hence faith and matters of faith and articles of faith which are in fact non-factual and non-applicable to anything outside the construct of faith.

If one requires a system external to themselves to find their peace, to make their solace and to come to terms with their heart and minds and if they do that through organized religion and the chosen dogma and doctrine of that religion then that is great!!!

What is important in my eyes is that harm is not carried out upon others and minimized as much as possible where it can be until the pathway to unconditional positive regard for all things (love) is achieved.

We'll get there. Look how far we've come already! Really far! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This only applies if you believe there is a god at all.

One cannot say, I believe there is a god and whether you do or not is irrelevant.

The entire conversation is castrated with bias at that point.

That's the thing with a belief. It's a belief. It's not a known. Not even to the believer. Hence faith and matters of faith and articles of faith which are in fact non-factual and non-applicable to anything outside the construct of faith.

If one requires a system external to themselves to find their peace, to make their solace and to come to terms with their heart and minds and if they do that through organized religion and the chosen dogma and doctrine of that religion then that is great!!!

What is important in my eyes is that harm is not carried out upon others and minimized as much as possible where it can be until the pathway to unconditional positive regard for all things (love) is achieved.

We'll get there. Look how far we've come already! Really far! :)
Very true.
Evidence is not proof and faith is not evidence.
Being a Christian, to me of course, the path is Christ BUT I openly accept and understand that there are many paths to love.
I can speak of myself and of my views and my experiences and why I believe and so forth, but that doesn't mean anything to anyone other than to me.
In the end, it is ALL a very personal issue and regardless of religion or faith or ideology it always amounts to just that -personal decision.
Of course, that said, one then arrives at the realm of where MY personal decision and yours or his or hers "meet" and what happens there.
And that, as always, is the issue.
In regards to the subject at hand (MA and religion) and the topic in particular ( Christianity and MMA), there are concret notions and core doctrines one must subscribe to call him/herself a Christian and the first is to believe that JC is their Lord and Saviour, BUT after that one is to "imitate" Christ in all we do ( to the best of our ability and to the best of circumstances in the world we live).
Choosing to do violence on another when there is choice NOT to, is not "very christian".

[GeneChing]

Which makes me wonder...who are all you people and what have you done with our regular posters? :p

[Lucas]

You know, Sanjuro, you're my favorite type of Christian. You 'get it'

[Hebrew Hammer]

All this talk of Christianity is making me hungry...


Well, you need to understand Jesus' INTENT behind that.
AT the time some law interpreters were allowing a man to divorce a woman for ANY reason whatsoever.
Jesus wanted to make VERY CLEAR the seriousness of marriage and how it was INTENDED to be.
You don't get married "just because", you don't get married with the understanding that if you don't "like it" you can get out.
No, that is NOT how it works, you must be of the correct mind and spirit and understand that it is for life.
So if you don't think you can do that with THAT person, don't get freaking married !
Now, Jesus made it clear that the ONLY justification for divorce was adultery and I think we all can agree that is THE reason, far more than any other.
Of course IF a man was violent with his wife there were penalties for that also and divorce would be acceptable under those terms also.
No one was excpeted to live under a cloud of hate and violence.
The point Jesus was making was NOT so much you can only divorce under such, but how very serious marriage is.

And yes, I am aware that "any man that lusts has committed adultery in his heart".

That's a very modern interpretation SJ, you assume most people freely chose their partners out of love, much like we can now...but most marriages were arranged, for tribal, economic and political reasons. There was no Samurai Divorce Court. The power of Rabbis, lawyers, and the Priest hood comes much later.


Well, the Hebrews tended to view that law as applicable to themselves but yes the law was applied to others that were "neighbours" too.
Don't ever judge a religion or ideology by what people do that is AGAINST its core teachings.
Where in the verse I quote from Matthew would you get the impression that ANY type of violence or hate against ANYONE is acceptable?

Careful Grasshopper, you can NEVER and I mean Never group the collective Hebrew view...believe you me, you should have seen the debates over one passage of the Torah in my Judaic studies groups. In fact there is a faction of Jews called the Re-constructionists and all they do is argue and redefine what's God's word was. Violence is very Old Testament....God struck down many a man.


i would think jesus would be fine with it since both men are wanting to fight each other and not basing that around hate or melicious intentions.

Lucas see above, Jesus was Jewish and I can promise you he would have more than just one opinion about this...he would be of several minds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a very modern interpretation SJ, you assume most people freely chose their partners out of love, much like we can now...but most marriages were arranged, for tribal, economic and political reasons. There was no Samurai Divorce Court. The power of Rabbis, lawyers, and the Priest hood comes much later.


Indeed, hence his warning that any man that divorces a woman (outside of adultery) makes her an adulteress AND all the penalties that go with that (stoning for one).
It was a warning NOT only for the couple BUT all those involved, it was a huge sin to cause ANOTHER to sin.
It was also a comment that marriage was NOT suppoose to be the way they were doing it.



Careful Grasshopper, you can NEVER and I mean Never group the collective Hebrew view...believe you me, you should have seen the debates over one passage of the Torah in my Judaic studies groups. In fact there is a faction of Jews called the Re-constructionists and all they do is argue and redefine what's God's word was. Violence is very Old Testament....God struck down many a man.


In Jesus' time there were 4 principle groups: Pharisee, Saudacee, Zelots and Essences ( and I am sure a few more smaller groups too).
And what made them different was their interpretation of the Torah AND how to apply it.
Nothing has really changed.



Lucas see above, Jesus was Jewish and I can promise you he would have more than just one opinion about this...he would be of several minds.


Jesus was Jewish by birth and by choice BUT he was hardly a "typical" Jew and he was VERY clear in regards to certain things.
The use of violence was one.
He most certainly would have frowned upon the use of violence for entertainment AND for sport AND for anything other than self-protection ( and yes there is even some debate as to if he would have advocated violence even for self-protection).

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, Sanjuro, you're my favorite type of Christian. You 'get it'

Thanks, I appreciate that.
When a Christian is a Christian by choice and because they have been humbled by God's love, they tend to not be the overly "militant" type and quite honestly the vast majority are like that.
The extremists as always, get the most press.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its funny, I tend to have more debates with other Christians then I do with people of other religions or atheists.
There is a element of " I am right you are wrong" in every ideology but in a religion like Christianity that makes it clear that we are NOT to judge others it amazes me how judgmental some are.
In a religion that advocates LOVE above all else, it amazes me how unloving some are.
In a religion what warns that we will be very surprised as to who will be saved, it amazes me why people think THEY KNOW who will be and who won't.
Augustine was right, the church is a "hospital for sick people(sinners) not a museum of saints.
In short, people suck !

[David Jamieson]

Which makes me wonder...who are all you people and what have you done with our regular posters? :p

How soon you forget my good man, we've just spent the better part of the last half year or so weeding out the folks who would spiral a discussion such as this down deep into the depths of wee jokes, shouting and the inevitable, hateful, my god is better than your god remarks. :p

You now have civil, thoughtful, insightful and meaningful posts happening everywhere and more people of that inclination showing up to participate.

Anyway, I keep my sword sharp, you keep your hammer heavy and it will all be rainbows, lollipops and conversations that are relevant!

I hope....:)

[Scott R. Brown]

How soon you forget my good man, we've just spent the better part of the last half year or so weeding out the folks who would spiral a discussion such as this down deep into the depths of wee jokes, shouting and the inevitable, hateful, my god is better than your god remarks. :p

You now have civil, thoughtful, insightful and meaningful posts happening everywhere and more people of that inclination showing up to participate.

Anyway, I keep my sword sharp, you keep your hammer heavy and it will all be rainbows, lollipops and conversations that are relevant!

I hope....:)

No, what you have now is milk-toast discussions devoid of passionate argument! :p:(

[Scott R. Brown]

Its funny, I tend to have more debates with other Christians then I do with people of other religions or atheists.
There is a element of " I am right you are wrong" in every ideology but in a religion like Christianity that makes it clear that we are NOT to judge others it amazes me how judgmental some are.
In a religion that advocates LOVE above all else, it amazes me how unloving some are.
In a religion what warns that we will be very surprised as to who will be saved, it amazes me why people think THEY KNOW who will be and who won't.
Augustine was right, the church is a "hospital for sick people(sinners) not a museum of saints.
In short, people suck !

I think the problem is the terms used. Any time we choose one thing over another we are making a judgment. Making judgments is a necessary part of life. What is meant is do not devalue another's inherent worth as an individual, not "do not make a judgment".

[David Jamieson]

No, what you have now is milk-toast discussions devoid of passionate argument! :p:(

I disagree, we still can have passionate arguments, what's missing is miscreants with overblown egos, distraction tactics, trolling, belligerence etc.

Besides, it's "milquetoast", passionate that! :D

Like how you complained for days on end and sent private requests to have me hunted down and killed etc for being a moderator here.

Which in light of your advise to be non-judgmental is somewhat humourous. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the problem is the terms used. Any time we choose one thing over another we are making a judgment. Making judgments is a necessary part of life. What is meant is do not devalue another's inherent worth as an individual, not "do not make a judgment".

Well put, yes we always make a judgment, we just shouldn't judge OTHERS.
Someone asked me once if I ever judge and I said of course I do.
BUT what I try to do, because that is who I understand what Christ taught, is to judge the SIN but not the sinner ( for lack of a better way of putting it).
yes there are things we can and should judge as wrong and when Jesus said to "not judge" he was NOT referring to the acts that are wrong but to the judgment of PEOPLE ( even more so since no one is qualified to judge anyone else because we all suck).
The adultress episode is perhaps the best illustration of this (whether it happened or not is irrelevant), Jesus judge her sin BUT said to those that were judging HER -let he without sin cast the first stone.
Truly words to live by.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I disagree, we still can have passionate arguments, what's missing is miscreants with overblown egos, distraction tactics, trolling, belligerence etc.

Besides, it's "milquetoast", passionate that! :D

Like how you complained for days on end and sent private requests to have me hunted down and killed etc for being a moderator here.

Which in light of your advise to be non-judgmental is somewhat humourous. :p

In all fairness to Scott, his requests involved sodomizing bears and NOT any homicide what so ever.

[Scott R. Brown]

....what's missing is miscreants with overblown egos, distraction tactics, trolling, belligerence etc.

Not as long as you remain on the forum it isn't, as demonstrated by this post of yours!


Besides, it's "milquetoast", passionate that! :D

OOPS!!!:o


Like how you complained for days on end and sent private requests to have me hunted down and killed etc for being a moderator here.

Being a little over dramatic again are we?

And who is posting with an overblown ego now?:rolleyes:

As usual you do not apply the same principles to yourself, you so heartily expect of others.

And you are a miserable moderator! You over did your censoring, and it was obvious to many people as demonstrated by the thread allowed to remain AFTER you censored/deleted mine AND I complained about it!

Yet you presumed to ONLY censor the thread I started which sought to address your excesses, while allowing the other to continue.

You have squeezed the life out the main forum! It is a droll place now!


Which in light of your advise to be non-judgmental is somewhat humourous. :p

Your reading comprehension is a bit lacking. I was the one saying it is necessary and acceptable to be judgmental.

But you have a pattern of redefining history to fit your own delusions!:p

[David Jamieson]

In all fairness to Scott, his requests involved sodomizing bears and NOT any homicide what so ever.

Oh, well, I take it all back.

There's nothing in the bible about bear sodomy is there? :p

wait...

[David Jamieson]

Not as long as you remain on the forum it isn't, as demonstrated by this post of yours!



OOPS!!!:o



Being a little over dramatic again are we?

And who is posting with an overblown ego now?:rolleyes:

As usual you do not apply the same principles to yourself, you so heartily expect of others.

And you are a miserable moderator! You over did your censoring, and it was obvious to many people as demonstrated by the thread allowed to remain AFTER you censored/deleted mine AND I complained about it!

Yet you presumed to ONLY censor the thread I started which sought to address your excesses, while allowing the other to continue.

You have squeezed the life out the main forum! It is a droll place now!



Your reading comprehension is a bit lacking. I was the one saying it is necessary and acceptable to be judgmental.

But you have a pattern of redefining history to fit your own delusions!:p

Don't ever stop being the freaking weirdo you are Scott. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Well put, yes we always make a judgment, we just shouldn't judge OTHERS.
Someone asked me once if I ever judge and I said of course I do.
BUT what I try to do, because that is who I understand what Christ taught, is to judge the SIN but not the sinner ( for lack of a better way of putting it).
yes there are things we can and should judge as wrong and when Jesus said to "not judge" he was NOT referring to the acts that are wrong but to the judgment of PEOPLE ( even more so since no one is qualified to judge anyone else because we all suck).
The adultress episode is perhaps the best illustration of this (whether it happened or not is irrelevant), Jesus judge her sin BUT said to those that were judging HER -let he without sin cast the first stone.
Truly words to live by.

The way I tend to look at is by realizing that all behaviors have reasons, and if we understand the reasons behind the another's behaviors we are more likely to be understanding of those behaviors. Then when addressing a particular behavior with another it is more productive to address the reason/cause of the behavior than the behavior itself. Address the cause and the behavior resolves of itself!

[Scott R. Brown]

Don't ever stop being the freaking weirdo you are Scott. :p

Don't intend to you hypocritical narcissist!!:p:p;):D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The way I tend to look at is by realizing that all behaviors have reasons, and if we understand the reasons behind the another's behaviors we are more likely to be understanding of those behaviors. Then when addressing a particular behavior with another it is more productive to address the reason/cause of the behavior than the behavior itself. Address the cause and the behavior resolves of itself!

As much as I agree, that is a tricky situation.

[wenshu]

http://cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/398720_218075794953404_100002529541419_483310_2113 942464_n.jpeg

[sanjuro_ronin]

One sometimes wonders what is going through the head of the Big Guy upstairs when He sees the crap we do to ourselves.
The history of marriage is a perfect example of MAN going out of his way to **** himself in the ass, LOL !

[Scott R. Brown]

Marriage relationships are culturally determined.

[David Jamieson]

They are and the overlying values of the greater culture are what becomes rule of law.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Marriage relationships are culturally determined.

Indeed, and all the good and bad that goes with it.

[bawang]

mongolian marriage customs involves kidnapping a woman and raping her.

[Hebrew Hammer]

http://cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/398720_218075794953404_100002529541419_483310_2113 942464_n.jpeg

If you notice this all OLD Testament stuff...the Jews had it correct! Its such an interesting contrast between the Old Testament and the New, it makes you wonder if was indeed inspired by the same God. Jesus, a man of peace and forgiveness...the father, God, warlike, wrathful, and unforgiving.

[bawang]

wat u talking about? YHWH forgave the jews like 500 times in the old testament.

[Hebrew Hammer]

mongolian marriage customs involves kidnapping a woman and raping her.

It's also still practiced in the Southern United States but only if she's a relative.

I believe that kidnapping and raping your bride was part of many cultures through out the dark and middle ages.

I'm pretty sure your father maybe Borat.

[Hebrew Hammer]

wat u talking about? YHWH forgave the jews like 500 times in the old testament.

The Jews, perhaps, but not their enemies.

[bawang]

my mother told me she dreamed that a black dog was chasing her, then she became pregnant. thats why she can never love me.


The Jews, perhaps, but not their enemies.

nineveh bro nineveh

and nabuchadnezzar

c i smrat i know many tings

[Scott R. Brown]

mongolian marriage customs involves kidnapping a woman and raping her.

That occurred back in the time of Genghis Khan. His mother was kidnapped and made a wife of his father. When his father died, his mother, being a minor wife from another tribe was abandoned by the tribe along with all of her children. Genghis Khan never forgave them.

While he did not kidnap his primary wife, she was kidnapped from him by another, stronger, tribe. He joined forces with another tribe, organized a raiding party and kidnapped her back.

This wife-napping is not unusual for small tribal groups. It introduces fresh DNA into the tribe in order to dilute inbreeding.

The Greeks did the same thing. Helen of Troy was kidnapped by the Trojans from Agamemnon's brother Menelaus.

The falling out between Agamemnon and Achilles occurred over two kidnapped women!

The Roman founding was sustained by the kidnapping of the Sabine women in order to become the wives of the Roman Founders.

Some American Indian Tribes also kidnapped wives from other tribes!


If you notice this all OLD Testament stuff...the Jews had it correct! Its such an interesting contrast between the Old Testament and the New, it makes you wonder if was indeed inspired by the same God. Jesus, a man of peace and forgiveness...the father, God, warlike, wrathful, and unforgiving.

That is why the New Testament/Covenant/Agreement is as NEW Agreement, as opposed to the Old Testament/Covenant/Agreement, which was the OLD Agreement!

Different Theology/Agreement/Covenant for a new time.

Think of it this way: the rules you expect your 5 year old to follow are different than the rules you expect your 15 year old to follow, which are different than the rules you expect your 21 year old to follow.

Different rules for different levels of maturity.

Read The Book of Romans.;)

[Hebrew Hammer]

my mother told me she dreamed that a black dog was chasing her, then she became pregnant. thats why she can never love me.



nineveh bro nineveh

and nabuchadnezzar

c i smrat i know many tings

What did you just call me???!

[Scott R. Brown]

my mother told me she dreamed that a black dog was chasing her, then she became pregnant. thats why she can never love me.



nineveh bro nineveh

and nabuchadnezzar

c i smrat i know many tings

God used the enemies of Israel in order to become object lessons for the Hebrews. He did not forgive them per se; he used them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forgiveness was always open to those that repented.
Of course repentance was/is not as easy as it may seem because with it comes full acceptance of all that one has done wrong AND the burden of living with that with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the pain one has caused.
Most would rather NOT repent under those circumstances.

[GeneChing]

I must confess that I like the name "King's Sword School of Martial Arts".

Christian values in martial arts (http://www.sunstar.com.ph/davao/feature/2014/01/03/christian-values-martial-arts-321447)
By Reuel John F. Lumawag
Friday, January 3, 2014

BEING a predominantly Christian nation, various denominations and institutions have found different ways to teach Christian values to their fellowmen. Be it through big acts in philanthropy by Christian businessmen or by simply through voluteerism by the youth of the church.

Martial artist and founder of the King's Sword School of Martial Arts and Values Roberto Nell Jone M. Astudillo III has discovered a unique way teaching Christian values, through martial arts.

He said it is a two-fold organization of martial arts and ministry. The school stands for the Word of God from Ephesians 6:17. The purpose is to reach the youth who do not have work, to teach them quality martial arts, train them to be champions in martial arts and in life, share the gospel with them, disciple them and teach them how to earn through teaching martial arts and how to use it to bring people to Jesus.

"We go to churches, schools, villages and youth gatherings to do demonstrations and share the gospel. We see many youth coming to Jesus and try to get them involved in a church," Astudillo said in his testimony.

He said in the classes he have the students memorize warrior scriptures and teach biblical principles and values.

"We teach the greatest self defense is knowing the Word of God. It will not only save you physically but also for eternity," Astudillo said.

Aside from the King's Sword School of Martial Arts and Values, he also established American Bushido Kai Association (Abka) Philippines in the same year.

He said he caught interest with Abka after the group, which originated from the United States of America, visited their church in late 2007.

"They are black belters in karate but their goal is to share the Gospel through martial arts. I asked if I could be a part of their group and they said the only requirement was to love Christ and want to be used by Him," he recalled in his testimony.

Astudillo said that he saw Abka's potential to be part of his ministry to reach out to the children and to teach them Christian values since its teachings were biblical based.

"My purpose in life now is so much more than martial arts. Martial arts is no longer my god but simply a tool God has restored to me to be used by the Lord to tell people about Jesus. I want to be like the apostle Paul who said, 'For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.' Philippians 1:21," Astudillo said.

Presently, he is planning for the activities of Abka and King's Sword this year. In February and March he will be having US-based martial artists to instruct and also an international tournament for February. He is currently the chief instructor for Abka-Philippines and King's Sword School of Martial Arts and King's Sword Demo Team. He is also a group fitness instructor, Powercycling instructor, and personal trainer at the MetroLifestyle Fitness Center & Spa.

He is married to Catherine Nabayra-Astudillo and they have one daughter Tashea Mae Nabayra. Just recently he went with his family together with his home church VCF Davao to Tacloban for relief operations.

He finished his elementary and secondary levels at Notre Dame of Kidapawan and finished his bachelor’s degree at MATS College of Technology in 1998 in BS in Aircraft Technology, with honors.

Published in the Sun.Star Davao newspaper on January 04, 2014.

Whereas the name "Monster X Camp" reminds me of one of those 80s slasher films


Man in Ministry Uses Martial Arts Techniques, Feats of Strength, and His Tragic Story to Break Into the Hearts of Many (http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/man-in-ministry-uses-martial-arts-techniques-feats-of-strength-and-his-tragic-story-to-break-into-the-hearts-of-many-424062.htm)

Grapevine, TX -- (SBWIRE) -- 01/02/2014 -- Inspiring people can immediately leave an impression upon stepping in a room or the stage. Coach Larry Clay of Monster X Camp aces every possible way in keeping people’s attention to him.

More than just Feats of Strength

Coach Larry is power and strength personified. Standing 6’8 and weighing more than 300 pounds, the Monster X Camp coach immediately attracts attention upon getting in front to start his inspirational messages. This attention stays once he showed off his strength. Bending steel bars or crumpling skillets with his bare hands becomes an attraction during his talks. Nevertheless, what makes him more inspirational is his personal story.

The Story that Tears Everyone’s Heart

Mostly, Larry Clay keynote messages in the All Works for Good Ministry include telling about his story. His story is extremely tragic and probably every bad event experienced by one person. According to Coach Larry, “My story is something that everyone may have experienced at one point in their lives. I’ve been abused physically and verbally, raped, fed drugs, neglected and starved. Beating the hell crap out of me in different ways possible is like living daily torture in hell.”

Listeners can’t keep themselves from crying or being surprised after hearing his history. They can’t believe that the over achiever coach had a rough time. Watch Coach Larry during one of his talks at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2b2PRLoBlA.

All Things Work for Good

“People think that my past is enough to mess me up,” he continues. “They know that I’ve made it in the athletics, martial arts field, music and business, so they are struck with disbelief after hearing my story. However, I want everyone to understand that our past doesn’t decide our fate.”

The motivational speaker emphasizes this point all the time in his talks. This also inspired Coach Larry to establish the All Things Work for Good Ministry, a group that urges everyone to go on walking the right path despite the heartaches, the bad decisions, and the wrong individuals who drag them back to the pits of darkness. “We encourage everyone to move on by thinking about the people who keep praying for them and survive to see their enemies’ heads roll after they get back on their feet. These enemies will always be there to derange them, but it’s important to remember that everything works for the good,” says Coach Larry.

Transparency is King

He continues, “People say that some stories are meant to hide inside our closets. However, I’m not ashamed of my story and I want it to serve as inspiration for everyone worrying about their future after experiencing such devastating issues. And I really love it when listeners come to me and say how much my transparency let them see how God has worked in their lives.”

To learn more about the ministry and find inspiration in meeting daily challenges, visit its website at http://www.allworksforgood.com/.

About Monster X Camp
Spearheaded by Coach Larry Clay, Monster X Camp is a martial arts school established in Grapevine, Texas. It devotes itself in promoting the holistic benefits of martial arts for people within its community. Every instructor shares the same passion in teaching everyone about self-defense while fostering an enjoyable learning environment for students.

Contact:
Office Address:
445 E. Northwest Hwy,
Grapevine, TX 76051
Email: coach@monsterxcamp.com
Website: http://www.monsterxcamp.com

[GeneChing]

..but amusing nonetheless.


KNIGHT: National Cathedral goes off the deep end with tai chi and yoga in the nave (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/17/national-cathedral-goes-off-the-deep-end/?page=all)
Would Jesus have made a church into a gym for alternative religions or debate site on gay equality and gun control?
By Robert Knight Friday, January 17, 2014

http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2013/08/04/8_4_2013_national-cathedral-vandalis8201_s640x420.jpg?403b8bb6a069ae5b9232734b 03a5f529d08a0108

The Washington National Cathedral was vandalized last week when paint was splattered inside two chapels. D.C. police charged Jia M. Tian with defacing of property. (Associated Press)

The Episcopal Church-run National Cathedral in Northwest Washington, D.C., has hosted many events in its storied history, from Martin Luther King’s final Sunday sermon before his assassination, to U.S. presidents’ state funerals.

Last week, it was the site of “Seeing Deeper,” a five-day exploration of “expansiveness, immediacy and insight.” Before we get into that, here’s a brief history.

In 1791, Pierre Charles L'Enfant, who laid out the capital city, included space for a “a great church for national purposes.” The original site now houses the National Portrait Gallery.

A century later, on Jan. 6, 1893, Congress granted a charter signed by President Benjamin Harrison for the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation of the District of Columbia. The foundation stone was laid on Sept. 29, 1907, during a ceremony attended by President Theodore Roosevelt, and it took 83 years to complete the world’s sixth-largest cathedral.

In 1990, master sculptor Frederick Hart also completed his 20-year work on the Creation Sculptures, which adorn the main facade. The magnificent series includes Ex Nihilo (out of nothing), The Creation of Day, The Creation of Night, Adam, St. Peter and St. Paul.

Like the rest of the liberalized Episcopal Church, the cathedral is bleeding parishioners and donors, so it is now resorting to charging $10 for tours.

Less spiritually uplifting than the Creation Sculptures, but eerily appropriate, is the gargoyle in the shape of Darth Vader on the northwest tower. You can get a Darth Vader T-shirt in the online gift shop, which at one time was selling Darth Vader bobbleheads. Seriously.

Last week, the cathedral, which has already celebrated same-sex “weddings,” jumped the shark.

“You see a cathedral, but you don’t see anything being done with it. I’m trying to get this place back to its roots.”

So said the Very Rev. Gary Hall, dean of the cathedral, who is quickly turning the place for the nation’s most solemn occasions into Flip Wilson's Church of What’s Happening Now.

Don’t believe me? Try this snippet from The Washington Post:

“‘I want to skateboard down it — or have a paper-airplane contest,’ Mr. Hall, a tall, white-haired priest, said Monday as he watched about 100 people practice tai chi in the football-field-long, rectangular nave.”

That’s right. The nave — the heart of the church leading to the altar. They took out the seats to stage activities including yoga sessions during five days of “Seeing Deeper.” I wonder if they have given thought to renaming the nave as the “navel,” as in contemplating one’s own?

The cathedral’s website promised that “written prayers, yoga mats, zafu meditation cushions, poetry, and mandalas to draw and color” would be “available as reflection tools.”

For those unfamiliar with Eastern religions, you use a zafu during a zazen (sitting) meditation session. Mandalas are geometric patterns representing the cosmos, and are used in Hinduism, which has thousands of gods, or in Buddhism, which is godless.

I’ve been searching the New Testament for support of Mr. Hall’s assertion that the cathedral’s transformation into a multipurpose center with mandalas would fit into Jesus’ ministry, but so far, no luck.

Many great cathedrals now house heretics, but the physical majesty of these buildings at least preserves a sense of holy ground, where people can contemplate the awesomeness of God and the condition of their souls. Now, even that’s been compromised.

Of course, real ministry is found in the heart, not in particular structures. Jesus warned us not to confuse showy religious practices with true repentance and love for God. Although Jesus might feel more at home in humbler environs than a cathedral, He preached at times in the grandest building of His 33 years on Earth — the Temple in Jerusalem.

But can you envision Jesus of Nazareth converting a cathedral into a handy gym for alternative religions and “public-policy debates on topics including gay equality and gun control?”

Mr. Hall seems able to do so: “If I get people together and say, ‘Let’s talk about God,’ we’ll get an argument. But if I say, ‘Let’s all pray together and experience the divine together in our own way,’ people can enter that in a much more creative and less-judgmental way.”

Translation: Don’t let Jesus and the Bible get in the way. In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” That doesn’t leave much room for the kind of spiritual smorgasbord we’re seeing now in Western nations, especially across the pond.

As The Washington Post informs us, “Long ago, many European cathedrals removed their chairs and now commonly use their spaces for events ranging from corporate parties and arts-awards ceremonies to events that can attract youths, such as ‘rave masses,’ where drugs are forbidden, but loud music, dancing in bikinis, and light shows are encouraged.”

Please don’t bring this up at the National Cathedral’s next vestry meeting.

Robert Knight is senior fellow for the American Civil Rights Union and a columnist for The Washington Times.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's quite the fascinating thing to watch the very gradual but obvious decline of orthodoxy in N.America.
To bend over backwards so much for either a "quick buck" or under the disguise of "liberal Christianity".
Sad too.
While I am very much against the ultra-conservative "pharisee" Christianity of some places in the US, the overly liberal isn't much better.

[David Jamieson]

Come on, it's the Nave. Not like they are changing babies on the altar or something. Besides, a church is supposed to be a communal gathering place and a place for questions and conversations, fellowship etc. Jesus was more concerned about it (the temple) being turned into a mall for commerce.

A church is only a building with doors. It is nothing without it's people. that's the bottom line and it is communal and should be used for all the normal doings of day to day life and as a place of worship. I have no problem with moms stretching out, kids reading books, tea and biscuit time. That's what a communal gathering place is for. A church should be a familiar and happy place to go and these activities support that.

Just my point of view. :)

[PalmStriker]

my mother told me she dreamed that a black dog was chasing her, then she became pregnant. thats why she can never love me.



nineveh bro nineveh

and nabuchadnezzar

c i smrat i know many tings :D If you would start barking she may have a change of heart.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Come on, it's the Nave. Not like they are changing babies on the altar or something. Besides, a church is supposed to be a communal gathering place and a place for questions and conversations, fellowship etc. Jesus was more concerned about it (the temple) being turned into a mall for commerce.

A church is only a building with doors. It is nothing without it's people. that's the bottom line and it is communal and should be used for all the normal doings of day to day life and as a place of worship. I have no problem with moms stretching out, kids reading books, tea and biscuit time. That's what a communal gathering place is for. A church should be a familiar and happy place to go and these activities support that.

Just my point of view. :)

The church being a communal place and a sanctuary is all fine and quote correct, it should even be a sanctuary for ALL, regardless of religion.
BUT it should NOT be a place where other religions are preached.
It should not be a place where POV that are contrary to the religion of that church are condoned.

[David Jamieson]

The church being a communal place and a sanctuary is all fine and quote correct, it should even be a sanctuary for ALL, regardless of religion.
BUT it should NOT be a place where other religions are preached.
It should not be a place where POV that are contrary to the religion of that church are condoned.

It's a building with doors. When the Wiccans use the Nave, they pay their rent and there aren't anyone there but the wiccans, so what does it matter?
religion is words and ideas. Application of those is the work in my opinion. I can hear buddhist lectures, christian lectures, taoist, wiccan, neo-pagan etc. It all has something to take away.

What you are saying is akin to not teaching history in the science lab. It's a building.
When I use a toilet, is it no longer suitable to be used by someone else?
My personal opinion is that the real church, temple, is in the heart. Not in a pile of stones. If you look for it in the pile of stones, in my opinion, it will never be found.
We are each a temple. Some, empty with no services or spirit and others active and full of intention. Just my opinion.

[Kellen Bassette]

When I use a toilet, is it no longer suitable to be used by someone else?

I don't know, you tell me. :eek:

Interesting choice of analogy though.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a building with doors. When the Wiccans use the Nave, they pay their rent and there aren't anyone there but the wiccans, so what does it matter?
religion is words and ideas. Application of those is the work in my opinion. I can hear buddhist lectures, christian lectures, taoist, wiccan, neo-pagan etc. It all has something to take away.

What you are saying is akin to not teaching history in the science lab. It's a building.
When I use a toilet, is it no longer suitable to be used by someone else?
My personal opinion is that the real church, temple, is in the heart. Not in a pile of stones. If you look for it in the pile of stones, in my opinion, it will never be found.
We are each a temple. Some, empty with no services or spirit and others active and full of intention. Just my opinion.

So you are ok with someone preaching Islam in a synagogue?
Since it's only a building, we are ok with people proclaiming that the holocaust never happened at the Jewish Research Center?
What I am saying is not "akin to not teaching history in the science lab", since both are school subjects taught in a school.
It is akin to teaching creationism in a evolutionary biology class.

[David Jamieson]

So you are ok with someone preaching Islam in a synagogue?
Yes.

Since it's only a building, we are ok with people proclaiming that the holocaust never happened at the Jewish Research Center? Straw man, come on man, you are above that. :) the holocaust happened, not only for jews, but for gypsies, gays, socially undesirable people and several holocausts have happened. the nazis didn't corner the market on wanton destruction of an ethnic group in order to steal their stuff. Crikey, you, me and everyone of European ancestry is guilty of causing the holocaust here when our people wiped out millions of native folk and pressed them down. For pete's sake, Native folk in Canada weren't even allowed the vote until 1961! Those are facts, not beliefs. And see how quickly we can move on from them with knowing. religion? This is not true in the least. It depends entirely on you deciding to believe it or not.

What I am saying is not "akin to not teaching history in the science lab", since both are school subjects taught in a school.
It is akin to teaching creationism in a evolutionary biology class. No it's not. We are talking about religion after all which is faith based and virtually all of it cannot be qualified or quantified in any real way. hence "faith" creationism can be disproved with scientific evidence, though, it has not be shown that we were not created, or the universe wasn't created. We theorize. The framework of "creationism" is fundamentally deficient of facts and void of reason and is handed out as biblical literalism. In essence, it is a lie. It can be shown to be a lie outright.

No religion is a lie though, nor are they "true". It is either accepted or not accepted. It has never been and never will be factually valid.
And yes, 100 million years from now, it will be rubble. A building. A room with doors is what a building is. The temple is and always has been the person.
In Christian terms: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)



In fact, I can find that sentiment in any religion and quite a few philosophies.

So yes, a building is just that. A room with doors.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes.
Straw man, come on man, you are above that. :) the holocaust happened, not only for jews, but for gypsies, gays, socially undesirable people and several holocausts have happened. the nazis didn't corner the market on wanton destruction of an ethnic group in order to steal their stuff. Crikey, you, me and everyone of European ancestry is guilty of causing the holocaust here when our people wiped out millions of native folk and pressed them down. For pete's sake, Native folk in Canada weren't even allowed the vote until 1961! Those are facts, not beliefs. And see how quickly we can move on from them with knowing. religion? This is not true in the least. It depends entirely on you deciding to believe it or not.
No it's not. We are talking about religion after all which is faith based and virtually all of it cannot be qualified or quantified in any real way. hence "faith" creationism can be disproved with scientific evidence, though, it has not be shown that we were not created, or the universe wasn't created. We theorize. The framework of "creationism" is fundamentally deficient of facts and void of reason and is handed out as biblical literalism. In essence, it is a lie. It can be shown to be a lie outright.

No religion is a lie though, nor are they "true". It is either accepted or not accepted. It has never been and never will be factually valid.
And yes, 100 million years from now, it will be rubble. A building. A room with doors is what a building is. The temple is and always has been the person.
In Christian terms: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)



In fact, I can find that sentiment in any religion and quite a few philosophies.

So yes, a building is just that. A room with doors.

You seem to be confusing ORGANIZED religion (which is what we are talking about) and "spiritual" religion.
There was a reason that Jesus took the whip to the money lenders in the Temple...

Fact is that a church/synagogue/mosque, etc is not JUST a building to those that frequent it, regardless of how those that do NOT frequent it feel.
To engage in an activity that is against the core of what that building stands for IN that building is, quite simply, wrong.
You are of course free to disagree.

[David Jamieson]

You seem to be confusing ORGANIZED religion (which is what we are talking about) and "spiritual" religion.
There was a reason that Jesus took the whip to the money lenders in the Temple...

Fact is that a church/synagogue/mosque, etc is not JUST a building to those that frequent it, regardless of how those that do NOT frequent it feel.
To engage in an activity that is against the core of what that building stands for IN that building is, quite simply, wrong.
You are of course free to disagree.

I do disagree. :)
If you're focus is on the external, then you simply are not practicing your faith really.
Your worshiping a false idol. In this case a building.

In your example of teaching Islam in a Synagogue, the fact that only Muslims are receiving the teaching means that the building is used as a mosque, which then gets turned back to a synagogue as soon as the Torah is brought out again.

It's not the building man. It's what is in your heart and mind and not the geographical place where you kneel with others. And if what's in your heart and mind is hatred towards one construct in favour of another, then in reality, that's "your" religion. I see nothing at all in Christianity that raises a building above service to god in the actions of yourself. For that matter, I don't see that in any religion, organized or otherwise. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do disagree. :)
If you're focus is on the external, then you simply are not practicing your faith really.
Your worshiping a false idol. In this case a building.

In your example of teaching Islam in a Synagogue, the fact that only Muslims are receiving the teaching means that the building is used as a mosque, which then gets turned back to a synagogue as soon as the Torah is brought out again.

It's not the building man. It's what is in your heart and mind and not the geographical place where you kneel with others. And if what's in your heart and mind is hatred towards one construct in favour of another, then in reality, that's "your" religion. I see nothing at all in Christianity that raises a building above service to god in the actions of yourself. For that matter, I don't see that in any religion, organized or otherwise. :)

It is not about raising a building or anything above one's faith, it is quite simply about respecting what an institution has says it stands for.
Try opening an rub-n-tug in a university and lets see how that goes for you.

If a church stands for A, B and C and is against D, E and F, then D, E and F have no place in a church, it is just that simple.

[GeneChing]

When I use a toilet, is it no longer suitable to be used by someone else?

You know, Madonna gets a new toilet seat installed in every venue she plays. It's in her rider. And Madonna, well, that's a religious name.

Just sayin...

[David Jamieson]

You know, Madonna gets a new toilet seat installed in every venue she plays. It's in her rider. And Madonna, well, that's a religious name.

Just sayin...

Famous people. Meh, what are they gonna do. I am of the hoi polloi.

SR- The "institution" is the seat of division. That is the real issue. That an institution would think for one minute it is superior or inferior based on the usage of a structure is simply bizarre.

My church is the world. My temple is my heart. To seek my god is akin to a fish looking for water. Hence my inability to understand the investment into superficial structures. For instance, as a Mason, a lodge can be held anywhere. It is only dependent on members participating in the work and not on a building. Lodges are built on consecrated ground. In the case of no building, the temple is consecrated in each of us as that is where the spirit of god resides.

[GeneChing]

Life News: Health Life: Health & Fitness Life: Religion (http://newsok.com/mighty-ministry-oklahoma-city-preacher-combines-bible-study-martial-arts/article/5381151)
Mighty ministry: Oklahoma City preacher combines Bible study, martial arts
The Rev. Tom Lyda’s taekwondo class at New Covenant Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Oklahoma City combines Bible study with martial arts.
by Carla Hinton Modified: January 3, 2015 at 9:00 pm • Published: January 3, 2015

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/w620-38a890b882979c1151b10c8402b7c9fe.jpg
photo - The Rev. Tom Lyda, dressed in a black taekwondo uniform, conducts a Bible study before leading his taekwondo class at New Covenant Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), 12000 N Rockwell, where he is senior pastor. Photo by Carla Hinton, The Oklahoman The Rev. Tom Lyda, dressed in a black taekwondo uniform, conducts a Bible study before leading his taekwondo class at New Covenant Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), 12000 N Rockwell, where he is senior pastor. Photo by Carla Hinton, The Oklahoman

Ministry and martial arts go hand-in-hand at one northwest Oklahoma City church.

At 5:30 a.m. each weekday, the Rev. Tom Lyda dons his martial arts uniform to teach a taekwondo class at New Covenant Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), 12000 N Rockwell Ave.

By Sunday, he’s in the pulpit delivering sermons as the church’s senior pastor.

Lyda, a taekwondo black belt, is one preacher who packs a powerful punch.

“This is soul, body and mind — it’s the whole thing,” he said of his martial arts class.

Lyda said he started the free taekwondo class about two years ago.

The men who currently participate said the early morning class time was the only time they could all get together. Lyda said the class has proven to be popular despite its start time.

Lyda said the class is affiliated with Team Chip Tae Kwon Do centers, based in Abilene, Texas, where he was taught. The school’s co-owners, Chip and Glyn Ann Townsend, visit the Oklahoma City group every couple of months to certify and test the participants, Lyda said.

The group begins each class with prayer and Bible study using the “Jesus Calling” devotional series. Then, Lyda leads participants through stretches before they begin practicing taekwondo techniques such as defensive one-steps.

The preacher said they also do some cross training, and the goals of the class are to learn personal safety while becoming physically fit.

“It’s wonderful because we pray for one another and that support bonds us,” Lyda said. “We start with a spiritual connection, then in class through taekwondo, we are connecting physically and pushing each other to be a better person.”

Friendship and fitness

About six men are taking the class, and they have different reasons for participating.

Nick Nicoll, 63, said he was fascinated by martial arts when he was a child but never got the opportunity to try it.

He said the class is beneficial in more ways than one.

“It gives you pride in learning new things. My goal is to get my black belt by the time I’m 65,” Nicoll said.

Ethan Allen, 60, said the class has helped him maintain his physical fitness.

“The camaraderie and the physical exercise is great,” he said. “I dropped 30 pounds, and everyone else has too.”

Brad Swartout, 59, said he ran track at the University of Oklahoma and likes to work out, so the martial arts class is one more way to keep himself in shape.

“It’s a challenge for me,” Swartout said.

Faith connections

Lyda said the congregation considers the martial arts class an important outreach ministry. Not only does it bring men together for Bible study and physical fitness, it also brings them together to support a church ministry called Widow’s Walk.

Lyda said taekwondo class participants gather on a regular basis to perform needed tasks for the women in the widows’ group. They also gather for other service projects including painting the church and serving at a pancake breakfast.

Lyda said women in the congregation wanted to learn taekwondo, so he started an evening class for them. Now, men from the early morning class take turns teaching the women’s class, and the church is considering beginning classes for youths soon.

“Respect for one another, self control — there are a lot of connections to our faith here,” Lyda said.
There are more pix and a vid if you follow the link.

[GeneChing]

Is this the new trend of 2015? I doubt it. I just wrote that because I need some characters outside the quote to make the post stick. :rolleyes:


New Fort Mill church brings Bible and martial arts classes (http://www.lakewyliepilot.com/2015/01/04/2744107/new-fort-mill-church-brings-bible.html)

By Kelly Lessard

news@fortmilltimes.com January 4, 2015 Updated 37 minutes ago

http://media.lakewyliepilot.com/smedia/2014/12/31/14/08/q1Suq.AuSt.115.jpeg
Pastor Kendall Walker helped relocate his church, Fort Mill Community Bible Church, in the fall from Pineville, N.C. KELLY LESSARD — news@fortmilltimes.com

Fort Mill Community Bible Church, 125 E. Elliott St., Fort Mill, holds Sunday worship service at 10:45 a.m. Sunday school starts at 9:15 a.m. Wednesday night meal begins at 6 p.m. followed by Bible study at 7 p.m. Call 803-389-5970.

FORT MILL — If you spend any time with Pastor Kendall Walker of Fort Mill Community Bible Church, you will hear the phrase “God is good” pass from his lips more than once.

While he’s only been with the small church a few months, he has spent more than a quarter of a century leading churches all over the country. He said he is driven by a passion to help Christians articulate what they believe and why.

“The average Christian out there is ill-prepared in our faith,” Walker said. “If I asked, ‘What are the essentials of the Christian faith?’ Most people couldn’t tell me.”

“They need to know their faith and know it well,” Walker said.

The church, which moved from Pineville, N.C., to Fort Mill in the fall, will host a “How to Study the Bible” class open to the community. In addition, Walker will lead his members in Bible study on Wednesday nights, teaching basic doctrines.

Church members plan to go door-to-door this month conducting 30-second surveys created by Walker. The surveys gauge “the pulse of the community” to find out where people stand in their view of God, religion and the Bible.

Walker said since moving to the South, he has noticed “the tragedy of pastors in it for the money,” citing the notorious PTL Club of the now defunct Heritage USA in Fort Mill.

“PTL ministries have caused a lot of damage,” Walker said. “I’m trying to undue some of that damage.”

Prior to coming to Fort Mill, Walker spent time as a ministry consultant, training church leadership teams and helping churches grow membership. The veteran pastor holds three seminary degrees and has ministered in Massachusetts, California, Texas and now the Carolinas. Walker is an online professor with Liberty University, the largest Christian university in the world, boasting more than 100,000 residential and online students.

Although he has church-growth expertise, Walker said he is not looking to build a “mega-church” in Fort Mill.

“Some of them are really good,” Walker said. “The only problem is oftentimes it’s hard to connect.”

Walker, who has been married to wife Jennette for 24 years – the couple have two grown daughters – said he would be happy to see his church grow from its current 30 members to 250. He would also like to see more youth involved, he said. Church leaders are brainstorming event ideas for next year, including karaoke and movie nights.

But the program that really has Walker excited is the new martial arts class to begin Jan. 8. Walker, who holds three black belts, will be teaching the class. Walker has always taught martial arts to his church members who wanted to learn, he said, but this is the first time he is offering free classes to the public.

In addition to helping adults, the martial arts program will be “a safe haven for kids and an opportunity for them to learn discipline and focus,” Walker said.

His ultimate goal in offering the class is “kids would turn around and give their lives to Christ.”

Walker has been on a personal journey in 2014 finding a strengthened faith in God following his cancer diagnosis, and the loss of his father and brother, he said. Walker underwent prostate cancer surgery in August and said the prognosis is good.

“If something happens to me, I’ll be in the presence of Christ,” Walker said. “Nothing is beyond His control.”

[GeneChing]

Luv this photo. :cool:


Meet the Priest, Who is Also an Expert at Packing a Punch or Two (http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/Meet-the-Priest-Who-is-Also-an-Expert-at-Packing-a-Punch-or-Two/2015/01/22/article2630131.ece)
By Archita Suryanarayanan
Published: 22nd January 2015 06:00 AM
Last Updated: 21st January 2015 11:07 PM

http://media.newindianexpress.com/Meet-the-Priest.jpg/2015/01/21/article2630129.ece/alternates/w620/Meet-the-Priest.jpg
PHOTO: MARTIN LOUIS

CHENNAI: He first reveres Goddess Ashtalakshmi, a close second is Bruce Lee. His daily routine involves running on the beach for an hour from 4 am, an hour of karate practice, his daily duties at the temple, purohitham rounds for house warming and naming ceremonies, ending his day with another hour of karate. K Sheshadri (54), a priest at the Ashtalakshmi Temple, has the unusual distinction of probably being the only such priest with a black belt.

“As a son of a Brahmin temple priest, I was supposed to be non-violent and give all my attention to religion. But I wanted to learn self-defence and was fascinated by Karate movies that I watched as a boy — Return of the Dragon and The Shaolin Drunk Monkey,” he says, sitting at his house with a veshti-angavastram and a naamam on his forehead.

Sheshadri would secretly learn Karate tips from a Nepali watchman without his father’s knowledge. After his marriage in 1991, he decided he didn’t want to let go of his Karate dream. But he could not learn in Chennai as his father still disapproved. So, he would travel to an uncle’s house in Mayavaram, four or five times a month, and spend the whole day at an academy there. “It was hard work, I was past 30 then; we had to climb bridges holding sacks and practise punches,” he recalls. He did this for eight years, and after some media attention, his father got to know about his pursuit. “But by that time, he was happy and proud. He is everything to me,” says Shesadri, looking down at his mobile phone, which has the picture of his aged father as the wallpaper.

Taking part in numerous karate competitions, he even got an opportunity to go abroad. “But accordingly to our religious texts, I cannot cross the seas. If I do, I cannot be a temple priest again,” he says. He has never even eaten out in his life.

“But we get food from out for my children,” he says with a smile. His son pursued Karate till the brown belt, and his 14-year daughter pursues yoga in a big way. “I taught them karate from their childhood,” he says. Besides Karate, he also knows kick-boxing and silambam.

He also conducted classes for some time, but gave up because of lack of time. “But my retirement age is nearing. After that, I will definitely conduct classes. I will never use karate for earning money, I would do it for free,” he says. He adds that money doesn’t come easily, especially when there are house rents and other expenses, and not much of a pension.

With four levels of black belt certification cleared, he wishes to go even further.

“I have a lot more to do. We have a long way to go to get as good as the Japanese,” he adds.

[GeneChing]

Pastor using martial arts to teach biblical principles (http://www.macon.com/2015/02/18/3591421/pastor-using-martial-arts-to-teach.html)
By MICHAEL W. PANNELL
Sun News correspondent February 18, 2015

http://media.macon.com/smedia/2015/02/17/19/20/xPGf.AuSt.71.jpeg
Jim Scott presents Cody Turner, a 10th-grader at Northside High School, with an orange belt. It’s Taekwondo’s second-level belt and represents a sunrise.

Victory Taekwondo

Address: 901 Gunn Road, Warner Robins
Phone: 478-953-9518
Leadership: Jim Scott
Worship: Monday, Wednesday and Friday 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Website: www.victory4himtkd.com

WARNER ROBINS -- When Jim Scott teaches strikes, punches, roundhouse kicks and other taekwondo moves, he’s got more in mind than the stereotypes people get from martial arts movies.

Scott said he’s thinking fitness, character development and yes, self-defense.

He said he’s also thinking biblical principles and the opportunity to share Jesus Christ with others.

Victory Taekwondo is more than a taekwondo school. It’s a ministry of Shady Grove Baptist Church, where Scott has served as pastor since 2012.

“It’s an outreach ministry we started in January that teaches biblical principles through practical application,” Scott said. “We teach perseverance, self-control, confidence, respect, humility and other virtues to all ages, demographics and races. It’s a way to share the Gospel and God’s word through a fitness program a lot like they do with Upward basketball.”

Scott said like Upward, the school charges fees, but it is a nonprofit outreach serving Christians and non-Christians. He hopes one day it will pay its own way at its facility on the corner of Gunn Road and U.S. 41 -- just a mile or two down the road from Shady Grove’s church campus -- but for now the church foots the bill.

“We’re associated with the American Taekwondo Association,” Scott said. “ATA has two ways of approaching their schools. One is to be attached to an organization such as the YMCA, a fitness center or a church. When the Lord laid this on our hearts that was the obvious choice.”

Scott said he first got involved with taekwondo in his 20s as a young man in the Air Force looking for something positive to do with his spare time. He even dreamed of becoming an instructor.

But he said those dreams, and his involvement with taekwondo, faded as career, family and other demands increased.

“But I got involved again last year,” he said. “My youngest son was taking lessons at Perry taekwondo, and I was just another one of the parents sitting on the sideline watching. But I got up and got back at it.”

That was in June, and Scott said he wasn’t sure where it would lead.

“I had these thoughts that God might use it, but I wasn’t sure,” he said. “I decided to compete in ATA’s world event that July, but since I’d been out of the sport for 25 years I was skeptical about how I’d do. But I did well. I placed third in my 40-49 age group classification among second and third degree black belts. I was dumbfounded and started feeling God really was calling me back into it.”

Scott began working toward ATA instructor qualifications, and the church started talking about using taekwondo as an outreach.

But using eastern martial arts? A potentially violent sport for outreach?

Scott said he sees no contradictions.

“ATA is a pretty Americanized form of taekwondo,” he said. “The martial arts were developed by farmers to defend themselves from aggression, not to be aggressors. Quite honestly, because of my role in the military I’ve dealt with some of these issues before and seen how Scripture promotes the idea of national defense and of people defending the poor and oppressed. The Bible points out that God is ultimately our defender. We teach true meekness, power under control with humility. Plus, what we’re really doing day-to-day is simply strengthening our mind and body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. It’s not an offensive art. We’re a family oriented martial arts school that believes in biblical values re-enforced through taekwondo. Aggression is not tolerated.”

Plus, he said, it’s a lot of fun.

The church’s vision is that Victory Taekwondo grow to become a community center of sorts offering various opportunities for young and old. Scott said that’s already taking shape as Ron Shively, a longtime instructor with Karate for Christ, also is using the facility. Shively offers classes including a rape awareness class and a free tai chi class for seniors.

Scott, who is a chief master sergeant serving with the Air Force Reserve Command at Robins Air Force Base and who will retire at the end of this year, said he never expected to end up doing what he’s doing now.

“I became a Christian as a youngster, but I never expected I would be a pastor,” he said. “I never expected to get back into taekwondo or that God would bring an opportunity to teach. I believe he’s doing it all for his glory -- and I wouldn’t have it any other way.”

Contact Michael W. Pannell at mwpannell@gmail.com.
I wonder how it would be to train there if you weren't Christian.

[curenado]

Would some of these discrepancies harmonize if we have more than one basis?
To G-d, the man is right, because the place where the spirit dwells is not made with hands.
To man, the man is right. Who expects to offend a man I his essential dignity and gloss it over with empty words?

Of course many, most or all people are going to be offended. Muslims kill non-muslims approaching certain areas, let alone a shabbat meeting ever be held in a mosque. I am sure there's a lot of double standards, bs and hypocrisy involved - it's about people and since it's a hot issue, even those who can't get there honestly are trying to get there "by hook or by crook", so we must also consider, it seems, the theoretical possibilities and also what the "bone heads" perception will be.

I think your arguments would could pretty close if you made distinctions not only about religion and the differences, but also religious people (the building won't attack anyone in it - we think) and the differences in them, even in the same congregation.

There are more things surely where I take human offense than offense for G-d the giant. Funny thing, I seem more intense/resolute over man things than G-d ones too.
Like I somehow think "there's nothing you can do to G-d and why would he care? But I on the other hand don't like that and got a sword" - when you go to offend a temple, is it G-d standing there highly peed off or his employees acting on general orders and personal conviction.

Neither argument is so stupid, they're just prevented from interpretation by distinctions that affect the arguments but aren't being made.
If that makes any sense or helpful

[GeneChing]

Former Monterey pastor connects mind, body, spirit through tai chi (http://www.montereyherald.com/seniors/20150702/former-monterey-pastor-connects-mind-body-spirit-through-tai-chi)

http://www.montereyherald.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/NF/20150702/NEWS/150709940/AR/0/AR-150709940.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667
Hei Takarabe, left, master trainer of tai chi, works on a move translated as “moving your hand in clouds” with Phil Sakakihara while leading a class at Oldemeyer Center in Seaside on Thursday. (David Royal - Monterey Herald)

By Dennis Taylor, Monterey Herald

Posted: 07/02/15, 5:46 PM PDT | Updated: 1 day ago

http://www.montereyherald.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/NF/20150702/NEWS/150709940/EP/1/1/EP-150709940.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667
Hei Takarabe, master trainer of tai chi, leads a class at Oldemeyer Center in Seaside on Thursday. (David Royal - Monterey Herald)

SEASIDE >> As a young immigrant from Japan, Hei Takarabe originally had aspirations to become a healer — possibly a medical missionary — a path he pursued during his college years at Pasadena City College, then at UCLA, where he majored in chemistry as a pre-med student.

He became a spiritual healer instead, serving 38 years as a minister, including 21 as pastor of Monterey’s El Estero Presbyterian Church. Along the way, he discovered tai chi, a Chinese martial art developed by Taoists, who believe we are all part of a universal life force — an energy (chi) that can be harnessed for health.

Takarabe, never a “morning person,” rises these days at 4:30 a.m., meditates for 30 minutes, then heads to a local health club to practice tai chi for 90 minutes. Tuesdays and Thursdays, he teaches the art form at the Oldemeyer Center in Seaside.

“Tai chi works on your energy, so you relax your body, and your mind and body connection is established,” he explains. “You move your hands very slowly and allow your mind to get into your body. Once you get connected, the mind goes to where it needs to be energized and heal.”

Much of Takarabe’s adult life has been a quest to understand people and the meaning of life. His earliest years were spent in uncertainty in post-World War II Manchuria, where his father, who worked for the puppet government, was devoted to helping peasant farmers.

When the war ended, his family became refugees, at the mercy, he said, of Russian soldiers and Chinese gangsters, moving with help from the United Nations from Manchuria to Japan, where life was difficult.

“I was 7 then and didn’t understand much of the oppression. The hunger and suffering came when we got to Japan,” he remembers.

“We settled in Kagoshima, where my grandmother was, and had some money, but there was nothing in the city to buy, unless it was too expensive,” Takarabe says. “So, my mother and I would take the earliest train into the countryside and knock on the doors of the farmers, asking them to sell us some vegetables, or anything else they had to eat. What we were doing was illegal, but the police wouldn’t arrest us, because they would have had to arrest almost everybody.”

The first-grade education he had received in Manchuria was of no use — most school days there had been spent drilling on how to run to the underground shelter, he says — so he was catching up in Japanese schools until he was a fourth-grader.

By high school, he was attending a Presbyterian church in Japan, where he met missionaries who sparked his interest in coming to America.

A year after his graduation, his family found sponsorship in Pasadena, and Takarabe began his college years and worked as a houseboy for $35 a month.

“I had studied English for seven years, but discovered when I got to the United States that what I had learned was almost totally useless,” he says. “I could read, but not very well. I had difficulty understanding people in my classes. I was learning from the ground up.”

The strategy he adopted to accelerate his English education was to shut the Japanese language out of his life for four years.

By that time he was achieving mostly A’s as a chemistry student at UCLA, earning a degree and applying for medical school. But he changed direction after he became interested in attending a Presbyterian seminary.

“I enjoyed seminary because they taught psychology, history and theology,” he says. “It gave me time to really think about why I am here, and what is the purpose of life.”

Takarabe spent two summers as an intern, preaching at a church in the small California town of Strathmore, where he met and married Gloria Ishida, a farmer’s daughter who had become a registered nurse.

After graduating seminary and becoming ordained, he was invited to pastor Parkview Presbyterian Church in Sacramento, where he spent 17 years ministering to a congregation of mostly Japanese-Americans. He preached his sermons in both Japanese and English.

To better understand his flock, Takarabe began to interview his parishioners about their lives and philosophies, creating an oral history that would become part of the archives at CSU Sacramento.

“That really taught me a lot about their lives, their hardships,” he says. “It was best for me because I regained so much respect for them and their struggles. We interviewed, we translated, and we edited it in such a way that it was understandable to people who never had any background or understanding of the history of Japanese-Americans.”

Hei and Gloria relocated with their two children to Monterey in 1982, when he was invited to become pastor of El Estero Presbyterian, a pulpit he held until he retired in 2003 at age 65.

“We came back here and saw that huge, awesome body of water again, and it was fantastic. We went to watch the sunset almost every night,” he says. “And we’d have guests who would visit us from Sacramento, and we loved to take them to see the sunset.”

Takarabe’s first exposure to tai chi came as he observed a friend performing the art during a Presbyterian retreat at Asilomar in 1985.

After 10 years of practicing on his own, he sought out a master teacher, Dr. Paul Lam, paying $650 for a six-day workshop at Asilomar that, he says, changed his life.

“It was one of the best things I could have done for myself,” says Takarabe, who then found Dr. Stephanie Taylor, a Carmel physician who became his mentor in the art. He’s been training with her locally, and helping with her classes, ever since.

Takarabe, a grandfather, feels more at peace with his world today than ever before.

Also relevant in today's news: Dana White is GODLESS (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?47174-Dana-White&p=1284980#post1284980). :eek:

[GeneChing]

Remember Jew Jitsu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49824-Martial-Arts-amp-Religion)?


Safety Training Offered To Orthodox Jews In Brooklyn As Self-Defense Against Anti-Semitism (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/07/21/martial-arts-orthodox-jews-self-defense-against-anti-semetism/)
July 21, 2015 6:50 PM

Related Tags: anti-semetism, Brighton Beach, Orthodox Jews, Scott Rapoport, Shima Juijitsu, steve isaak

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — A new version of martial arts is being taught to and practiced by Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn.

CBS2’s Scott Rapoport talked to a man who has been called the “most dangerous Jew in NYC” — Although you wouldn’t know it by looking at him.

Former NYC probation officers and Washington Heights native Steve Isaak, 67, has developed a personalized style of martial arts called
Shima Juijitsu.

He’s been teaching it for more than 40 years to a devoted following of the city’s most observant, Orthodox Jews, in a Brighton Beach studio. Part of his mission is for it to be self-defense from anti-Semitism.

“Everyone need self-defense but they need it more than most, based on the history of Jewish people,” Isaak said.

His students come in all shapes, sizes, ages and sexes.

There are women, too, who want to learn to defend themselves — like Chavi Charlap.

And what does she get from the class?

“I get confidence,” Charlap replied.

Because they are Orthodox, the women train separately from the men. And though touching is traditionally verboten, some of his female students permit it during training, saying Isaak’s classes are conducted with respect to their Orthodox values.

“If I’m in a life threatening situation and because of this I can save my life and other lives then it’s definitely worth it,” Charlap said.

Isaak turned to martial arts as a young, 12-year-old boy after he says he was beaten up by two older kids.

By the time he got to college, he was teaching self-defense. He opened his own martial arts school shortly after that.

Isaak says the secret and power of Shima Juijitsu is that you don’t have to be athletic or powerful. That it is based on efficiency, not strength, Rapoport reported.

The cerebral Sensai says he teaches his students a series of moves that can deflect and derail an attacker.

His student Rabbi David Goldshyn with the Jewish Center Of Brighton Beach says it’s effective and necessary.

“You don’t want to get into a fight every two seconds,” Goldshyn said. “But you also want to have the confidence that if something happens you can protect yourself.”

Through the years, Isaak says he’s taught Shima Juijitsu to cops, prosecutors, judges and even some in Israel’s defense forces.

Isaak says he now lives in Myrtle Beach, but comes back to Brighton Beach every two weeks for 5 days at a time to teach his Orthodox students. He says his students demand it.

There's a vid too, but I didn't watch it....

[GeneChing]

This is a fine story. There's a vid here too if you follow the link.


Arab and Israeli Martial Artists Join Together to Fight for Peace (http://magazine.good.is/articles/israel-jordan-arab-jew-martial-arts-peace)
by Rafi Schwartz

http://assets.goodstatic.com/s3/magazine/assets/548199/original/33463128_bb2f732687_o.jpg=s1600x1900
image via (cc) flickr user emptyhighway

As anyone who actually practices martial arts can tell you, learning how to punch, kick, and chop effectively is less about becoming an excellent fighter than it is about developing a sense of self-discipline and control. Like the oft-repeated adage about jazz, karate isn’t so much about the punches you throw, as it is about the ones you don’t. It’s this duality—the tension between violence, and inner calm—that makes the study of martial arts so compelling. But can karate do more than simply bring peace to those who study it? Can it bring peace to an entire region?

That was the goal of a recent martial arts seminar held on the beaches of the small Israeli town of Herzilya, just north of Tel Aviv. There, karate practitioners from across Israel joined with martial artists from nearby Jordan to both learn from one of the leading martial artists in the Middle East: Imad Khalil, head of the Jordanian Karate Association. The beachfront seminar, attended by Jews, Christians, Druze, and Bedouins, was more than just a chance to learn with a teacher at the top of his field, it was a chance to build bridges between communities often separated by suspicion and tension.

Said Khalil to PBS News Hour: “It’s help for peace. If you have a neighbor. And never you see him, and they see you. How you going to have relation with him? Friendship?”

The event was the brainchild of Danny Hakim, founder of Budo For Peace, the Israel-based martial arts organization that invited Khalil to teach. Per its website, Budo For Peace aims to

[E]ducate and instill in youth the behavioral values of tolerance, mutual respect and harmony both within themselves as well as with their neighbors and surroundings by means of traditional martial arts training and by internalizing the inherent ideals of Budo.”

To that end, the organization has affiliate chapters throughout Ethiopia, France, Turkey, and Jordan, each promoting a sense of camaraderie and, yes, peace, across cultures and borders, all through the equalizing power of athletic competition. This latest event follows a 2012 trip to Jordan by Hakim and a number of his students. There the group learned from sensei Nayel Owaimer of the Jordanian National Karate Team.

While Budo For Peace may be working to bring people together through a mutual love of martial arts, sometimes the larger world gets in the way: Three fourths of Khalil’s group of Jordanian martial artists were reportedly held back from entering Israel for the beachfront session. That doesn’t seem to worry Hakim, though. Bolstered by this round of Jordanian-Israeli martial arts cooperation, he’s already planning to expand upon the program’s success, telling PBS News Hour:

“You know, as a karate person, you know, it’s just one obstacle. Next time we’ll definitely get them to come.”

[via PBS]

[David Jamieson]

Is the spirit of Caligula recruiting Karateka now? ;)

[GeneChing]

I almost put this on our Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52601-Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts) thread because this thread is fat enough, but I didn't obviously...



Brothers promote faith and martial arts (http://www.journalscene.com/article/20150725/SJ11/150729821/1041)
Roger Lee rlee@journalscene.com @LeeDodger

Saturday, July 25, 2015

http://jsweb.epp.dc.publicus.com/storyimage/JS/20150725/SJ11/150729821/AR/0/AR-150729821.jpg&MaxW=840&q=90
Grandmaster Dr. Rodney E. Graham earned seven medals at the U.S. AAU National Karate Championship Tournament this summer. PHOTOS PROVIDED
Photos

Mixing faith with martial arts has proven to be a good formula for the Graham brothers.

Grandmaster Rodney E. Graham, who is the minister of music at Tall Pines Baptist Church, has made it a mission to demonstrate one can be both a serious Christian and a serious competitor.

“Incorporating faith into martial arts allows me to use martial arts as a witnessing tool to bring people to Jesus Christ,” Graham said. “It helps me reach people who haven’t been touched. I also want to change the way people view Christian martial arts organizations. Just because you are a Christian it doesn’t mean you can’t be a very competitive martial artist.”

That is a point he tries to make at every competition he attends. If his track record is any indication, his mission has been a success.

Graham has earned considerable awards and accolades in the martial arts world. This summer, he earned seven medals at the United States AAU National Karate Championship Tournament. He brought home two gold medals, four bronze and one participation medal after competing in Sparring, Forms, Short Weapons and Long Weapons. He also represented the North Carolina Home Team comprised of athletes from throughout the Carolinas in team events and helped set a new Guinness Book World Record.

Graham and more than 1,000 other karate practitioners succeeded in breaking a record for The Largest Group of Karate Practitioners to Perform a Karate Kata at the Same Time. The old record was set in India in 2013 when just more than 800 people performed at the same time.

“Competing at nationals has been a goal for me for a long time,” Graham said. “I really wanted to do well there to help give our organization credibility. Some people don’t take us seriously so hopefully I helped show them we are legitimate. Being part of setting a record was pretty cool. It was quite a process. We all had a wrist band we had to show to a camera before we stepped on the mat so that officials could review the tap and verify how many participated.”

Graham was inducted into USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame in 2009. At this year’s hall of fame induction ceremony scheduled for September, he will receive the Karate Competitor of the Year award. He is also due to test for his 10th Degree Wado-Ryu (Japanese) Karate Black Belt, which would earn him the title of “Soke,” the highest rank in all of Japanese Martial Arts.

His accomplishments include earning championship karate medals at the Coastal Carolina Championships, the NC/SC State Championships and the 5-State Regional Championships (AL, GA, NC, SC, TN).

He is employed as an instructor with PRO Martial Arts-Wescott, where he serves as the Armor Anti-Bullying and Anti-Predator Instructor, teaching students how to avoid and deal with uncomfortable and/or hazardous situations. He said he was bullied as a child so the cause is one he embraces wholeheartedly.

“I realize what some kids go through,” he said. “I’m very happy to try to help them tackle those challenges. I try to help kids who are in a shell open up and share their concerns and promote awareness. I give them and their parents safety tips.”

He has a Master’s Degree in Education and two Doctoral Degrees in the field of Martial Arts Studies and holds an Executive Certificate in Principles of Business from Notre Dame.

He is also an accomplished drummer. He has been a compensated percussionist in almost 50 Broadway-type musicals in the various theaters in Charleston and performed in the Piccolo Spoleto Festival four different years.

He is coached and trained by his older brother, Grandmaster Dr. Robert G. Graham, who is also a ninth degree black belt and member of the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame. Robert owns and operates the World Martial Arts and Fitness Center located in the Summerville area and is a manager with Republic Services. He is also very involved at Summerbrook Church.

USA Martial Arts presented Robert with the “Lifetime Golden Achievement” award for his contributions to the martial arts. Like his brother, Robert holds a PhD in Martial Arts Philosophy and a DSc in Martial Arts Science. The degrees were awarded through the University of Asian Martial Arts Studies, a US Government-accredited institution in Centerville, Ind.

The brothers, who are both Summerville High School graduates, founded the Christian Martial Arts Association, a fellowship of Christian believers who share an interest in the martial arts. Robert serves as president and Rodney serves as vice president.

After experiencing his own success in martial arts competitions, Robert gave up competing due to medical concerns. Later this year, he will be accept the Non-Profit Organization of the Year award on behalf of the Christian Martial Arts Association.

The brothers are the sons of the late Thomas G. and Della I. Graham.

Caligula...:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

I almost put this on our Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52601-Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts) thread because this thread is fat enough, but I didn't obviously...



Caligula...:rolleyes:

Hey come on, it's not that big of a stretch.
For instance:
Caligula was a god according to the religion of Rome at the time. And, in a rage, he attacked the Mediterranean and had his soldiers stab at the water in a war with Neptune. Which is highly likely to be one more myth about Rome's emperors, but when you posted the karatekas punching towards the sea, it was the myth that surfaced in my mind first.

Can't a guy be pretentious and over educated around here anymore? :confused: :D

[SteveLau]

What do you think about mixing these together?

Do you think it's OK to make students practice or least observe Buddhism in order to study at a particular school?

Want to hear your comments.........



I have no problem with that. Practise or observer Buddhism as part of the training should be well awared by new student. No imposing. Forcing people to learn this and that does not work well.

Back to the topic of this thread, some martial arts are religion or philisophical based. So is it your cup of tea ? The choice is yours.




Regards.

KC
Hong Kong

[David Jamieson]

I have no problem with that. Practise or observer Buddhism as part of the training should be well awared by new student. No imposing. Forcing people to learn this and that does not work well.

Back to the topic of this thread, some martial arts are religion or philisophical based. So is it your cup of tea ? The choice is yours.




Regards.

KC
Hong Kong

There are philosophical aspects of buddhism that fit with defending oneself or others. But that would be the end of it. Religious Buddhism is something that is not necessary to study of martial arts.
I would think Confucianism would be more ingrained to TCMA study. Filial systems, reasons to use force etc.

Also, ~G, that Rodney dude is dodgy as it gets. lol "DR" of what?
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/dr-rodney-e-graham-10th-degree/50/7a9/64a

[GeneChing]

http://thelink.harding.edu/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/bag_5111.jpg?itok=FD38jrEx
Sop****re Matthew Wilcox, Dr. Kevin Youngblood and sop****re Graeme Gastineau practice Kung fu for Impact 360 at Complete in Christ Church. Impact 360 is a Kung fu class on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. Photo By Brittney Garringer

Bible teachers and Kung fu (http://thelink.harding.edu/the-bison/bible-teachers-and-kung-fu)
Thu, 10/08/2015 - 6:05pm -- Sara Denney

Bible department professors Dr. Scott Crenshaw and Dr. Kevin Youngblood teach classes during the day and instruct Kung fu on Tuesday and Thursday evenings through Impact 360 in Searcy.

Youngblood said he strives to combine Biblical principles with Kung fu in his classes.

“It’s the greatest combo in the world,” sop****re Graeme Gastineau, attendee of Youngblood’s Kung fu class, said about the combination of Kung fu and the Bible.

Youngblood said he hopes to teach students to defend the weak and to take a hit without retaliation.

“I know how to respond to an attack in a way that is appropriate from a Christian perspective,” Youngblood said.

Youngblood said his martial arts training began at nine years old when he started Judo. He switched to Kung fu at age 10.

Not only has Youngblood been learning and practicing Kung fu from a young age, but he has also taught it since he was 15 years old, he said.

When Crenshaw approached Youngblood about teaching a Kung fu class at Impact 360, it provided an excellent way to contribute to the community, according to Youngblood.

“I like what it does for students,” Youngblood said. “I like the discipline that it instills in students and the self-control that it gives to them.”

Youngblood recruited Gastineau to be a part of the class at a Bible majors’ cookout at the end of the 2014 spring semester, Gastineau said.

According to Gastineau, he was twirling a stick and Youngblood approached him and said “you’re doing it wrong.” Youngblood proceeded to show Gastineau how to properly use the large stick as a weapon, all while holding his baby son in the other arm.

Gastineau is not the first in his family to learn the art of Kung fu. Gastineau’s father learned Kung fu from Youngblood while they attended school together at Lipscomb University. Gastineau said “he is living through that legacy.”

Gastineau soon became involved in Kung fu, and said he benefits from it in more ways than just the exercise.

“As Christians we discipline ourselves in different Christian practices so that in times of crisis, those practices will become second nature,” Gastineau said.“Likewise we learn Kung fu to discipline others, to fight just enough to protect yourself and protect others.”

Youngblood teaches a beginner-level Kung fu class on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. More information can be found at impact360online.com.


'to take a hit without retaliation' I suppose that's the iron body way. We all know how that goes (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57515-Shaolin-fighter-Yi-Long&p=1241904#post1241904). ;)

[David Jamieson]

'to take a hit without retaliation' I suppose that's the iron body way. We all know how that goes (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57515-Shaolin-fighter-Yi-Long&p=1241904#post1241904). ;)

9639

Back off Romans!!

[GeneChing]

Fellowship of Christian Swordsmen teaches sword fighting, love of Christ (http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-News+Local/233073/fellowship-of-christian-swordsmen-teaches-sword-fighting-love-of-christ)
Published on Monday, 21 March 2016 17:00 - Written by Augusta Robinson, augustarobinson@tylerpaper.com

http://www.focusinon.me/photos/i-g3XXbt9/0/M/i-g3XXbt9-M.jpg
Olivia Oney, 12, of Tyler, and Georgi Dumas, 15, of Henderson, practice staging a theatrical fight during a sword fighting class Thursday March 17, 2016 with the Fellowship of Christian Swordsmen at Pollard Park in Tyler. (Sarah A. Miller/Tyler Morning Telegraph)

As he wields his rebated steel sword against a fellow class member’s sword, Dawson Bodenhamer’s endurance and training are put to the test in a theatrical sword fighting class held by the Fellowship of Christian Swordsman.

Beginners in the class use shinais, bamboo practice swords, but Bodenhamer and others who are experience sword fighters can perform many tricks on command - such as flipping their swords around and catching them with one hand.

Bodenhamer said he joined the class about five years ago, after he was in a play that involved swordfighting. Since then, he has learned many things and enjoyed the experience.

“I wanted to learn to do all those moves,” Bodenhamer said. “There really is no limit to the amount of moves you can learn.”


While he added that getting to practice with fellow Christians has made the experience even better.

“It’s kind of fun and you get a community like this, good Christian friends,” he said.

Chris and Alison Chadwick founded the Fellowship of Christian Swordsman about 13 years ago, after each gaining years of jousting and sword fighting experience. Mr. Chadwick said that after years of working and hanging out in bad environments, he stopped sword fighting after he received salvation from the Lord.

However, after being asked to do a sword fighting demonstration at church, others began to request his services and he and his wife began offering the classes.

Mr. and Mrs. Chadwick said that since they started they have taught over a thousand kids, some who now teach others about sword fighting.

Mr. Chandwick said the class has many benefits.

“It’s just a physical, fun activity and we keep it safe,” Mr. Chadwick said. “It builds confidence and usually iron sharpens iron, it says in the Bible.”

The class takes place at Pollard Park and each of the moves are designed to look realistic without causing injury.

“Theatrical sword fighting is what you see in movies and plays and so forth,” Mr. Chadwick said. “Basically it’s for film and stage where you theatrically fight without killing each other, just like in ‘Lord of the Rings.’”

Each student in the class starts out using a shinai until they gain about 60 weeks of experience, Mr. Chandwick said. He also said classes include a prayer and devotional. He encourages those who would like to learn more information to go to the group’s Facebook page.

While Mr. Chadwick said sword fighting could be physically rewarding, he hopes that those who leave the class also feel spiritually uplifted.

“I love oozing Christ on people,” Mr. Chadwick said. “To me it’s just an opportunity to come together and love each other.”

Twitter:@TMT_Augusta



Sort of like a Jedi Academy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?65368-Jedi-Academies) for Jesus?

[GeneChing]

Actually the previous post would have been more apropos to today (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?60419-It-s-Star-Wars-Day!&p=1293422#post1293422). ;)



Should Christians practice martial arts? (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/should.christians.practice.martial.arts/85322.htm)
Patrick Mabilog 04 May 2016

http://d2.christiantoday.com/en/full/46550/karate.jpg?w=700&h=467&l=50&t=40
Pixabay

A long-standing debate that has existed for quite a while now is whether Christians can practice martial arts. The discussion has broken groups into a few factions and camps, of which these are some of the most popular:

Some argue that martial arts, at it's very core, are a practice of an occultic oriental ritual that focuses on spiritual release. Still others argue that Christians can practice martial arts as a purely physical exercise and a self-defense discipline without the chants and meditations. Others will say that the meditation and exercise are both practicable and that they no longer have an effect on one's spirit.

While the urge is there, I don't want to have to make this post about choosing which perspective is right, but rather present Biblical truths and leaving the deciding to you.

The best place to start is to have a proper understanding of how God created the soul. Our soul is made up of the mind, heart and will, the three being intertwined. What we believe in our head can often become a conviction of the heart which then will lead to the actions of the will.

Paul teaches us in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." God is in the business of renewing minds and taking every captive thought so that we may focus on that which glorifies God.

But it is important to note that martial arts are a good exercise, and that God also values proper health and stewardship of the body. While there are other options for proper exercise, there are those who find some martial arts to be the best for them. And it can be dangerous to expose the mind and heart to the philosophies that govern the spiritual aspect of martial arts.

However, come to think of it, many of the things we use and do on a daily basis have some form of paeanistic background. Our weekly calendar is based on paeanistic practices, wedding rings were once a pagan practice, the cross was once a Roman form of punishment, and even some of our sacerdotal vestments are some that we share with other religions. So should we also let go of all of these things?

At the end of the day, Paul leaves us with the thought that most things are permissible, but not everything is constructive and beneficial (1 Corinthians 10:23). It all boils down to a personal conviction that you hold, and it depends on God's grace and mercy to give you the wisdom to discern such things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree.
As a Christian one must decide for ONESELF their path.
See, Christianity is and always has been a expression of choice. It isn't a religion ( organized) per say because we truly follow ONE man and not really a set of rules and doctrines ( though there are many of those too).
The gospel is quite simple: Believe in Christ and you will be saved.
Everything else is an add on to the gospel.
No, it isn't that simple since believing in another and what th4y have done for you when you didn't deserve it one of the hardest things for people to do.
People PREFER rules and a "laundry list" of things to do.
People have a hard time grasping the concept of trusting ( faith) what someone else has done for them.

In regards to MA, the OT is clear that God does indeed prepare us for battle, so the physical part of MA is not a problem and never has been.
The mental part is only problem when training makes one violent and instills in one a desire, a want, to hurt others.

The spiritual is, of course, the easiest to address:
As a Christian you have committed you mind, body and spirit/soul to Christ, so it is for HIM that our spirit yearns.

As a Christian it is impossible for me to be spiritual outside of Christ, it is impossible for me to meditate and not be with Christ.
It simply does not work that way ( to meditate and be unchristian) for a person that has the HS in them.
UNLESS they actively CHOOSE to do so.

[Cataphract]

The battle cry of the first crusade was: Deus vult!

Pacifism hasn't been a top priority of Christianity for 2000 years now.

[David Jamieson]

The battle cry of the first crusade was: Deus vult!

Pacifism hasn't been a top priority of Christianity for 2000 years now.

It never was.


Luke 22:35-38

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The battle cry of the first crusade was: Deus vult!

Pacifism hasn't been a top priority of Christianity for 2000 years now.


Pacifism doesn't really play a part in any religion or ideology that subscribes to a moral code or the belief in a moral absolute.

In short, violence CAN be justified.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It never was.

That quote may not mean what you think it means.
It is not an advocation or call to arms.
That said, as I stated above, pacifism is not something that any religion that is guided by a moral code can subscribe to.

[Cataphract]

Yeah. But this is forever strangely out of sync with the Sermon of the Mount.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah. But this is forever strangely out of sync with the Sermon of the Mount.

What part?

[Cataphract]

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
and probably some more. But this is a good example, I think.

[David Jamieson]

That quote may not mean what you think it means.
It is not an advocation or call to arms.
That said, as I stated above, pacifism is not something that any religion that is guided by a moral code can subscribe to.

It is what it is.

People can interpret the crap out of what someone else is supposed to have said in order to fit their own ideology or understanding.
You say it's not, but there it is, written.

[David Jamieson]

and probably some more. But this is a good example, I think.

Believe it or not, colloquialisms get lost on future generations as well.

"Turning the other cheek" is akin to giving the finger. It's an act of defiance, not bending the will.
That was the usage of the term in the Messianic period in Judea under the Romans.
Jesus, being of the lineage of David, in the right order was in fact the King of the Jews.
he disliked Roman occupation and he disliked the client king Herod, a Persian who the Romans installed in order to maintain control and drain wealth from the region.

Mind you, it's easy to think of it in mystical terms when it is so far in the past that it is impossible to get the facts straight.

[Cataphract]

"Turning the other cheek" is akin to giving the finger. It's an act of defiance, not bending the will.

Understood, but nonviolence is often the direct opposite of cowardice and weakness. Think of Gandhi's campaign based on ahimsa.



he disliked Roman occupation and he disliked the client king Herod

That doesn't make him a proponent of violence.



Mind you, it's easy to think of it in mystical terms when it is so far in the past that it is impossible to get the facts straight.
I don't think about Jesus of Nazareth in mystical terms at all. I just read and interpret what he said according to the evangelists.
Either he used irony bordering on double speak, or "turn the other cheek" is one of his parables that contrasts directly with "an eye for an eye".

Consider also: "Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword." and "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
If he endorsed acts of violence, this is a strange way to get that point across.

[David Jamieson]

Understood, but nonviolence is often the direct opposite of cowardice and weakness. Think of Gandhi's campaign based on ahimsa.


That doesn't make him a proponent of violence.


I don't think about Jesus of Nazareth in mystical terms at all. I just read and interpret what he said according to the evangelists.
Either he used irony bordering on double speak, or "turn the other cheek" is one of his parables that contrasts directly with "an eye for an eye".

Consider also: "Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword." and "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
If he endorsed acts of violence, this is a strange way to get that point across.

yeah, it's an interesting story to say the least and it is rife with many contradictions.
The principle message is the same as all religions IE: Be good to each other and avoid being a jerk.

But still, he wrecked the place when he got mad at the money changers on the temple grounds. I mean geez, they weren't in the sanctum sanctorum or anything and it's commonplace for churches and what not to collect as much money as they can these days. the new evangelicals of course with their mega churches being huge collectors of silver and gold...

Anyway.

[Cataphract]

We don't even have a single piece of historical evidence for his very existence. It's hard to tell what exactly happened and what he really thought. But you're right. The general message is: Be good to each other and avoid being a jerk.

PS. The Messiah was originally supposed to kick the Roman occupants out of Palestine. Jesus loosing it and flipping some tables in the temple is still quite civil by comparison.

[David Jamieson]

We don't even have a single piece of historical evidence for his very existence. It's hard to tell what exactly happened and what he really thought.

It is pretty much universally accepted by scholars that Jesus has true historicity.
Granted there are some scholars in Europe who feel it is still open for debate, but Islam recognizes his existence and even Judaism does.
If they ever come up with Pilates orders in some roman judicial records treasure trove one day, I imagine that will seal the deal.

there are 4 texts outside of scripture that make mention of him as well. Not the least of which being Tacitus and Josephus. Josephus was a Jewish rendering and they don't use Roman history as part of their writings and so, it really becomes apparent.

Anyway, the same can be said of Socrates. He is only know to us through Plato and Aristotle and others who came after. But Socrates never wrote anything himself like his protege Plato did or Plato's protege Aristotle.

there are ideas that do align with the physical existence of Jesus. The question is, was he the one and only son of god? Because I remember quite clearly that Jesus himself stated outright that we were all Children of God, including himself. This is a very similar idea to what the Buddha had posited 500 years before Jesus. That we all possessed the divine within us, which was drawn from Hinduism, which of course was far more ancient than the Buddha as well.

Anyway, this is why I believe the divine is universal. There is no one way. We all have purpose, even the evil ones and that even the evil ones are children of god and have purpose, if nothing more than to give meaning to goodness because without evil, we would not know or understand what goodness is.

The lessons is that we are binary creatures in a 3d understanding of the universe and we do not transcend that fact until we are no longer part of it.

But I digress...:D

[Cataphract]

It is pretty much universally accepted by scholars that Jesus has true historicity.
Do you seriously expect theologians to say: "Hey, there possibly never was a Jesus and we just hogged faculty rooms for two millenia. Sorry."



Granted there are some scholars in Europe who feel it is still open for debate, but Islam recognizes his existence and even Judaism does.

Islam and Judaism clearly trump Europeans. ;)



If they ever come up with Pilates orders in some roman judicial records treasure trove one day, I imagine that will seal the deal.

Yes. But until that the historical existence of Jesus is - an opinion. Or subject to spiritual insight or something. The the historical references on him are scant and have probably been edited and reedited by Christian scribes.

Don't get me wrong. I think it rather probable that a former follower of John the Baptist by the name of Jesus preached, healed and traveled the Levant. And don't get me started on Socrates. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is what it is.

People can interpret the crap out of what someone else is supposed to have said in order to fit their own ideology or understanding.
You say it's not, but there it is, written.

Ah dude, if it was ever so simple...
Note how Jesus is recorded saying "That's enough..."

Just saying that His disciples were notorious for hearing one message and understanding another, how many times did He get frustrated with them?
Jesus was most certainly not a pacifist as we know the term, BUT He did warn that violence begets violence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The principle message of Jesus was the one He said over and over, " The Kingdom of God is Here..."

The historicity of Jesus the person is beyond doubt.
He is attested by more documents than any other historical figure of that time.
Here is Bart Ehrman responding to those that believe Jesus never existed ( most people will know who Bart Ehrman is):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.html


One thing I learned very quickly when I was studying for my degree in Theological studies is that the lay person ( which I was, even though I already knew far more than the average lay person) has very little idea about Christianity, the bible and Jesus.
Most of it is based on what they are told, movies and Milton, LOL !

[Cataphract]

The historicity of Jesus the person is beyond doubt.

How can anything be beyond doubt, when there is no proof?



He is attested by more documents than any other historical figure of that time.

He isn't attested. That's the point. Augustus is attested. The sheer number of documents written about something is no proof for or against its existence.



Here is Bart Ehrman responding to those that believe Jesus never existed ( most people will know who Bart Ehrman is):

He resorts to ad hominem attacks and a number of other logical fallacies. Jesus existed because he (Ehrman) wrote a book about it. Everything else is smoke screen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can anything be beyond doubt, when there is no proof?


He isn't attested. That's the point. Augustus is attested. The sheer number of documents written about something is no proof for or against its existence.


He resorts to ad hominem attacks and a number of other logical fallacies. Jesus existed because he (Ehrman) wrote a book about it. Everything else is smoke screen.

You need to be better research.
You can START here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
In the cited sources.
That is, IF you really want to know.

[Cataphract]

You need to be better research.
You can START here:

I knew the article, but thanks.
Why do I need to do research? That's what we have theologians and historians for, after all. If there was some conclusive evidence, I'm certain somebody would be more than happy to put it in that article you linked to. As I see it, there are mainly three independent sources - Tacitus, Josephus and the Talmud. All three are murky at best.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I knew the article, but thanks.
Why do I need to do research? That's what we have theologians and historians for, after all. If there was some conclusive evidence, I'm certain somebody would be more than happy to put it in that article you linked to. As I see it, there are mainly three independent sources - Tacitus, Josephus and the Talmud. All three are murky at best.

Considering we are talking about a 1st century Jewish peasant that was executed like so many others, it is remarkable that we have what we do have.
If you don't care enough to do the research, which is fine, at least give the benefit of the doubt to those that have.
I have yet to meet anyone, skeptics included that have done the research and believe that Jesus never existed.
Taken into the context of the times and who Jesus was, it is remarkable that we have as much info as we do.

[Cataphract]

Considering we are talking about a 1st century Jewish peasant that was executed like so many others, it is remarkable that we have what we do have.
If you don't care enough to do the research, which is fine, at least give the benefit of the doubt to those that have.
I have yet to meet anyone, skeptics included that have done the research and believe that Jesus never existed.
Taken into the context of the times and who Jesus was, it is remarkable that we have as much info as we do.

Whose research to what end? It would be helpful if we could stop beating around the bush and start naming names.
We weren't talking about beliefs (I do believe there is a historical core) but about proofs for that theory.

[David Jamieson]

Whose research to what end? It would be helpful if we could stop beating around the bush and start naming names.
We weren't talking about beliefs (I do believe there is a historical core) but about proofs for that theory.

More writings from thallus would help, but there are references outside of Christian writers. there are also non-canon books etc that strongly point to his physical existence. I think one of the issues is that only Christians believe he was a living embodiment of a single god. That is part and parcel to their faith.

the non Christian writers in no particular order are:

Thallus (54AD) (see Julius of Africa)

Julius of Africa (who references Thallus) wrote:
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Josephus (1st Century AD) (Jewish scribe and historian) wrote:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared. (some of this text is admittedly considered to have been altered later by christian apologists in teh 3rd or 4th century, but even with the omission of what may have been altered, and as Josephus did not use roman records for his jewish histories, it is a good indication of the reality of Jesus as a man.

Tacitus(64AD) (Roman General) wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome.(There was no "bible" per se in the time of Tacitus. No uniform gospel etc. No Christianity as official Roman religion until centuries after him.)

Pliny the younger (112 AD)wrote:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Babylonian Talmud (about 70AD it was compiled) and had within it:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."


Not surprisingly, there are more references to Jesus and in particular, to his followers who were in fact still Jews although Gnostic up until about the time the Romans adopted the religion as official and they were no longer welcome in the Jewish temples due to the disruptive nature of their belief and faith in context to Judaism.

It's safe to say that when first century writers are talking about him in the same context as what we read in Paul or the gospels and hundreds of years before any sort of canon bible is formed, and written by mostly pagans, then...well, It looks like I did your homework for you. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whose research to what end? It would be helpful if we could stop beating around the bush and start naming names.
We weren't talking about beliefs (I do believe there is a historical core) but about proofs for that theory.

A good introduction:
Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Studying the Historical Jesus) Kindle Edition
by Robert E. Van Voorst (Author)

[Cataphract]

I'll have a look on Van Voorst's book. Thank you.



It's safe to say that when first century writers are talking about him in the same context as what we read in Paul or the gospels and hundreds of years before any sort of canon bible is formed, and written by mostly pagans, then...well, It looks like I did your homework for you. :)

- Thallus & Julius of Africa: interesting, but off topic
- Josephus: talks about twenty different men called Jesus, two short passages, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence
- Tacitus: late, arguably hearsay from Christians, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence
- Pliny the Younger: late, off topic
- Talmud: heavily censored and redacted during the middle ages, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence

This goes into more detail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

Interesting for sure, but hardly convincing. But is this really such a big deal? There's no proof that Jesus did not exist, either.

[David Jamieson]

I'll have a look on Van Voorst's book. Thank you.



- Thallus & Julius of Africa: interesting, but off topic
- Josephus: talks about twenty different men called Jesus, two short passages, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence
- Tacitus: late, arguably hearsay from Christians, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence
- Pliny the Younger: late, off topic
- Talmud: heavily censored and redacted during the middle ages, dubious authenticity, weak circumstantial evidence

This goes into more detail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

Interesting for sure, but hardly convincing. But is this really such a big deal? There's no proof that Jesus did not exist, either.

You say "late" but late compared to what? All of these were long before Christianity had any sort of a major foothold and centuries before any bible was produced. That is kind of jumping the gun to say "late".

If you are looking for eyewitnesses, well, I don't even think you could find some of those for even bigger names in history that we accept as real people easily.

I personally am of the opinion that the record is deliberately muddy because of the requirement of the church to recognize Jesus as the one and only son of god. Really, I think the message was to be better people. there is not a lot of difference between the inferences about Jesus being the son of god and the Buddha saying he was the father of all men and that all humans are his children.

If the history of him was to be made utterly clear, it would cause some problems in the faith whatever it's sect.

People worship celebrities now, imagine the requirements 2000 years ago to achieve that kind of status. Mighty to say the least.
I personally believe that Jesus was the actual King of the Jews in that he was the one who should have had the throne of Judea and not Herod the client king of the Romans. Of course, Tiberius being the twisted and corrupted man that he was didn't want insurrection of any kind across his empire and so, like many other rebels, he (yeshua ben joseph) was put to death. His followers kept the faith though and carried on. Eventually, that movement grew very strong. Jewish people are tenacious and tough. That's the big message and calling a man a god in that time was not terribly uncommon.

As an aside, the concept of "proof of non existence" is somewhat absurd.

[Cataphract]

You say "late" but late compared to what? All of these were long before Christianity had any sort of a major foothold and centuries before any bible was produced. That is kind of jumping the gun to say "late".
Ok, true. But Tacitus was born approximately 25years after Jesus death. He was recounting stories that came the early church itself, which got its dogma from Paul.



As an aside, the concept of "proof of non existence" is somewhat absurd.
Why is that? A lot of fictional persons can be proven to be non-existent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should realize that anything written within 30-50 years of a person's death is considered extremely close in regards to ancient history.
Example:
All we have of Alexander the Great, the great King and conqueror of Macedonia, were written 100's years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_Alexander_the_Great


The five main sources[edit]
Arrian[edit]
Anabasis Alexandri (The Campaigns of Alexander in Greek) by the Greek historian Arrian of Nicomedia, writing in the 2nd century AD, and based largely on Ptolemy and, to a lesser extent, Aristobulus and Nearchus. It is generally considered one of the best sources on the campaigns of Alexander as well as one of the founders of a primarily military-based focus on history. Arrian cites his source by name and he often criticizes them. He is not interested in the King's private life, overlooking his errors . That Alexander should have committed errors in conduct from impetuosity or from wrath, and that he should have been induced to comport himself like the Persian monarchs to an immoderate degree, I do not think remarkable if we fairly consider both his youth and his uninterrupted career of good fortune. I do not think that even his tracing his origin to a god was a great error on Alexander's part, if it was not perhaps merely a device to induce his subjects to show him reverence. (Arrian 7b 29)
In****
Plutarch[edit]
Life of Alexander (see Parallel Lives) and two orations On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander the Great (see Moralia), by the Greek historian and biographer Plutarch of Chaeronea in the second century, based largely on Aristobulus and especially Cleitarchus. Plutarch devotes a great deal of space to Alexander's drive and desire, and strives to determine how much of it was presaged in his youth. He also draws extensively on the work of Lysippus, Alexander's favourite sculptor, to provide what is probably the fullest and most accurate description of the conqueror's physical appearance.
Diodorus[edit]
Bibliotheca historica (Library of world history), written in Greek by the Sicilian historian Diodorus Siculus, from which Book 17 relates the conquests of Alexander, based almost entirely on Cleitarchus and Hieronymus of Cardia. It is the oldest surviving Greek source (1st century BC). Diodorus regarded Alexander like Caesar as a key historical figure and chronological marker.
Curtius[edit]
Historiae Alexandri Magni, a biography of Alexander in ten books, of which the last eight survive, by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus, written in the 1st century AD, and based largely on Cleitarchus through the mediation of Timagenes, with some material probably from Ptolemy. His work is fluidly written, but reveals ignorance of geography, chronology and technical military knowledge, focusing instead on character. According to Jona Lendering: ..the real subject was not Alexander, but the tyranny of Tiberius and Caligula. (It can be shown that Curtius Rufus' description of the trial of Philotas is based on an incident during the reign of Tiberius)...Curtius copies Cleitarchus' mistakes, although he is not an uncritical imitator.[3]
Justin[edit]
The Epitome of the Philippic History of Pompeius Trogus by Justin, is highly compressed version of an earlier history by Trogus, with the selections governed by Justin's desire to make moralistic points, rather than with an eye for the history itself.[1]

Point being that because something was written a few decades after a persons death, is no reason to not take it as historically accurate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can only speak for myself, but when I started doing serious research into Jesus I was agnostic at best and, I begrudgingly admit, I was hoping to nail that coffin shut.

The reality is that when I saw the evidence and read the books and looked at it from a historical perspective I could not deny the evidence that Jesus existed.

[David Jamieson]

I can only speak for myself, but when I started doing serious research into Jesus I was agnostic at best and, I begrudgingly admit, I was hoping to nail that coffin shut.

The reality is that when I saw the evidence and read the books and looked at it from a historical perspective I could not deny the evidence that Jesus existed.

If presented with new data, it's no shame to change ones view. :)

[Cataphract]

You should realize that anything written within 30-50 years of a person's death is considered extremely close in regards to ancient history.

I would agree, had Tacitus tried to write a biography like the authors in your example. He was in fact reporting on a bunch of Roman slaves who caused trouble. We don't know how much background checking he did, if any. Also, there are other issues with Tacitus comment. His remarks are of great interest for those interested in early church history though.

[GeneChing]

There's a vid of the human interest local news story that this is based on, if you follow the link.



A Martial Arts Ministry in the Poconos (http://www.pahomepage.com/news/a-martial-arts-ministry-in-the-poconos)
By Brianna Strunk | bstrunk@pahomepage.com
Published 07/07 2016 05:54PM Updated 07/07 2016 06:38PM

TANNERSVILLE, MONROE COUNTY (WBRE/WYOU) - We all have talents and hobbies outside of our 9 to 5 jobs. But you may be surprised by what one Pastor in the Poconos can do.

Pastor Thomas Richards leads St. Paul Lutheran Church in Tannersville. Church goers have come to know him over the last 36 years.

"He is supportive, he's always available to bounce ideas off of. He offers encouragement, both to me and the groups. Those are qualities that are tough to find," says Matthew Bradley, Director of Music at St. Paul Lutheran Church.

Richards grew up around his local church. At a young age, he got involved in his youth group and church choir.

"It was really the center of my life," says Pastor Richards.

He went to Lutheran college and became a minister. St. Paul's has become more than a Church, it's Pastor Richard's home.

Richards says, "the people are very, very devoted to serving Christ."

After Sunday service, Pastor Richard's takes off his collar and puts on his black belt.

"I have what I'd call old warrior bones!" jokes Richards.

The 67-year-old trades "Pastor Richards" for "Master Richards" several times a week. He goes from teaching about God to teaching Tang Soo Do, a Korean martial art.

Richards says, "one of the things about this is there is always something new to learn."

Richards holds class in the same building as Sunday service. His first run-in with martial arts started in the '60s when little Thomas Richards picked up a karate book and was fascinated.

"This book was really really something. I said wow, if I ever get a chance I'm going to study martial arts. And all my friends said 'get out of here with that karate stuff, what are you kidding me?'" he adds.

The thought settled into the back of his mind. Until years later, when he served as a psychiatric Chaplin.

Richards explains, "and I was doing an intake interview one day and the perspective patient came across the desk and tried to attack me!"

The Pastor joined a karate school and was hooked.

He laughs, "as one of my students said to me, 'boy back in the day you must have been something'".

Over time he earned rank after rank.

"I just kept at it. And here 38 years later, still practicing," Richards says.

Hundreds of students have come through his classes over the years from ages 4 to 75.

He's climbed the ranks to a sixth degree black belt International Master.

"I'm pleased with what I've been able to accomplish," Richards comments.

But he says his greatest accomplishment is his students.

"I've watched many younger kids come up through the ranks. I've seen a whole bunch of them reach black belt, it's been pretty amazing," says Amanda Cole, student.

Inside St. Paul's, his students practice board breaking, sparring and stretching.

"You know sometimes if I catch people slacking off... I get on them!" jokes Richards.

Tang Soo Do is a defensive art.. That's why 7-year-old Jayden Batoon joined the class.

"What if a bad guy comes into your house and he breaks in? How can you defend yourself without doing karate?!" says Batoon.

But tang Soo Do isn't like it's portrayed in the movies.

"We teach martial arts not to go out and hurt people but so we can defend ourselves and become better citizens of the world," says Cole.

Pastor Richards says it's about character building, humility, respect, and integrity.

"It's really exciting to see them learn Tang Soo Do but also get those values and go out and excel in various parts of life and that is a really neat thing," says Richards.

Richard's roles as Master and Pastor aren't all that different after all.

Bradley adds, "he gives all he can to this congregation then also through the karate he gives to the community."

Pastor Richards says he practices his Tang Soo Do every morning, six days a week. He takes Sunday's off since it's the day of rest and you'll find him in Church.

[GeneChing]

Christian Fighter Does Mixed Martial Arts Bouts to Help Congo People (http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-fighter-does-mixed-martial-arts-bouts-to-help-congo-people-186688/)
BY MICHAEL GRYBOSKI , CHRISTIAN POST REPORTER
Jun 6, 2017 | 4:06 PM

A Mixed Martial Arts fighter who became a Christian about six years ago is using his skills as a professional fighter to help an impoverished Congo-based tribe.

http://d.christianpost.com/full/111146/590-517/fight-for-the-forgotten.png
(Photo: Facebook/Fight for the Forgotten) Christian MMA fighter Justin Wren pictured with members of the Mbuti Pygmy people of the Congo.

Justin Wren, an MMA fighter whose record currently stands at 13 wins and 2 losses, explained at the 2017 Parenting Teens Summit on Tuesday that he uses his bouts to help fund and spread awareness for charity, specifically those benefitting the Pygmy people of Congo.

Wren emphasized that unlike the bouts he fought before becoming a Christian, now that he uses his earnings to help better the lives of others in the Congo, there is greater meaning to the sport he has always enjoyed.

"When I win, I get to give the win money, the bonus to drill more wells. And if I don't win, then I don't get that. So there is a lot more pressure," said Wren.

"How cool would that be to be able to give? To fight and win, and say, I didn't just win a fight, but I actually won for them. I won so we could drill wells."

Wren went on to detail some of the harsh treatment that the Congo Pygmy people face, as many consider them subhuman and often deny them basic humane services.

The MMA fighter spoke about a disturbing practice by some local guerilla groups to eat Pygmies in order to gain strength, echoing the findings of a United Nations investigation in 2003.

Wren's charity, Fight for the Forgotten, centers on helping to develop sustainable living for the Mbuti Pygmy people.

There has been much debate about how compatible Christianity and professional fighting are. Adam Groza of Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary wrote a column for Baptist Press expressing his strong opinion against Christians partaking in MMA.

"UFC and MMA amounts to violence porn, a term which has been applied to movies with wanton violence such as 'SAW,' where violence is not part of the plot, it is the attraction," wrote Groza.

"Violence for violence's sake, as opposed to instrumental or redeeming violence, desensitizes the viewer to the graphic horror of watching two people pummel each other for the sake of entertainment. UFC and MMA offer exactly the kind of violence condemned in Psalm 11:5. Ezekiel 7:23 decries, 'the city is full of violence.' Why are Christians supporting violence in the city?"

By contrast, Dave Hatfield of Victory Christian Fellowship, a ministry that does MMA outreach, told The Christian Post in a 2011 interview that it can be used as an evangelism tool for young men.

"I believe God has given each one of us a divine desire to conquer and overcome ... that's why I believe guys are so into sports like football and MMA," reasoned Hatfield.

"We use our MMA outreaches to tap into guys' natural desire to conquer and compete and point them to their Creator and the fact He has plans for them to become not only beloved sons, but also warriors for Him."

Wren explained that he believed the MMA environment was a good place to be a witness, or as he put it, "be a light."

"There can be some really cool things that happen in this sport and for people that won't ever step foot into a church. They won't step foot there, but we get to go there kind of have camouflage on and just encourage them," he said.

Wren's comments were part of an online conference called the Parenting Teens Summit, which is being hosted by Axis Virtual and the Colson Center for Christian Worldview until June 15.

"Faithful Christian authors & thought leaders will provide practical talks to help you parent your teens. Know their culture, develop their hearts, and connect the generations to build lifelong faith," noted the Summit's website.

In addition to Wren, other notable speakers include Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission President Russell Moore, apologist Ravi Zacharias, and best-selling author and theologian Timothy Keller.

Interesting read. I like the Biblical citations.

[GeneChing]

I find the Christian takes on martial arts fascinating, especially because I've lost Christian students and classmates because of the ancestral altar at my first Kung Fu school.



Spreading the Gospel through Martial Arts (http://www.menastar.com/news/article_934e7ed8-f70e-11e7-8596-8353d5dfdeb7.html)
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Zach Buck

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/menastar.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/1f/a1f0270c-f70e-11e7-9fe6-97a12c9c86b8/5a57ca1b9def1.image.jpg?resize=300%2C415

The Ouachita Society of Martial Arts, also known as the Budokan Dojo has a slightly different take on the Eastern disciplines of martial arts.

Owners William and Wendy Scott believe their religion should be reflected in all aspects of their lives, including their doJo. A point made evident by the cross hanging atop the main wall. Directly under the cross are pictures of Grand Masters and Masters alike, in descending order of respect levels. Included in the photos was ninth degree black-belt Grand Master and original founder of the school, Douglas Fay.

One thing that makes is particular dojo stand out is the unusual cross of eastern and western philosophies. The Kancho or ‘Master Teacher’ William Scott said his beliefs and the martial arts instruction have the same basic principles of peace, self- discipline and love of the fellow man,which he derives from Christianity. Included in the tests for achieving each belt the students are required to memorize certain passages of scripture. The class closes every practice or training session with a group prayer, led by Scott himself.

Another facet that sets the OSMA apart from other ‘traditional’ dojos is the multi-discipline training they do including, kung fu, Karate and ju jitsu. They offer a total of five different forms of marshal arts training, some of which are offered individually. They also offer women’s self-defense classes and even have them free of charge for anyone who can’t afford it.

“I opened this dojo to help the community and the people in it. I truly believe that martial arts can make a difference, a person can learn to defend themselves but they also learn respect and self-discipline that makes them a better member of the community,” said Scott. He also mentioned that his classes were also offered free of charge to all police officers. “I respect what they do and they should definitely know how to defend themselves.”

The training at OSMA is driven by real world application, as opposed to competition style which is very rule based. This may have something to do with the reason Kancho Scott got his start in martial arts.

Growing up in the south side of Chicago he used to walk through three or four gang territories to get to school. “That’s where I learned the best form of self-defense is running”. said Scott with a chuckle.

“I’d get beat up, get my lunch and lunch money taken from me. Then my godfather took me to see a double feature, Bruce Lee and Billy Jack. I mentioned to him I wanted to do that and he took me to my first class. I was hooked instantly.”

From the start all of his training was intended for real life application.

Not found in the OSMA helmets and pads. The only protection from the strikes and floor, which they are repeatedly thrown to, is their gees and paper-thin training mats.

Scott said a strong bond that has been created between himself and his students. During the recent cold snap one of the members of the society's pipes froze, and burst and the OSMA family responded.

“He sent out a text to his family (the members of the dojo), and within 20 minutes ten people were there to help him out. We are all a family here, we show up to each other kids birthday parties and life events,” said Scott about the dedication his students have to each other. Further proving the point of their family orientation, there are three cribs among the heavy bags and training mats and children are welcome to accompany their parents to class.

Overall the school offers more than training in self-defense and how to throw your opponent to the ground. While these are two very key components in what OSMA does, that is not their main focus.

Their motto is "building modern samurai through iron discipline." Scott said the code of the samurai was to serve and that's exactly the sort of characteristics and behavior he attempts to instill in his students.

Dojo rules are also applied to the rest of the students' ives, including no public drunkenness and respecting law enforcement officers.

"We are here to serve the community," said Scott "I expect my students to carry themselves accordingly, which they do," he said glowing with pride.


thread: Martial Arts & Religion (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49824-Martial-Arts-amp-Religion)
thread: Any Christian Martial Arts Schools? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44645-Any-Christian-Martial-Arts-Schools)

[GeneChing]

I'm bummed that the photo link is broken.


Pastor teaches martial arts discipline (https://keysnews.com/article/story/pastor-teaches-martial-arts-discipline/)
By Theresa Java Free Press Staff
September 5, 2018
Theresa Java/Free Press

Theresa Java/Free Press Randy Rapozo Jr. takes takes his turn kicking the shield.

KEY LARGO — Pastor Eric Fisher directed about a half dozen children last Thursday to do hamstring stretches before they took turns delivering roundhouse kicks to a padded strike shield.

The Lighthouse on the Rock Assemblies of God Church transforms into a pocket-size dojang three times a week for both kids and adults interested in learning self-defense with a focus on Tang Soo Do, a Korean martial art that borrows fighting principles from karate and teaches respect. Fisher, the church’s lead pastor, easily transitions into sonsaeng, the Korean equivalent of sensei.

The Tang So Do tradition might best be recognized in the work of well-known martial artist and actor Chuck Norris, who showcased his master skills in “Walker, Texas Ranger,” a TV series that ran through the 1990s.

Students need not be a part of the church congregation to attend the classes, and most aren’t, according to Fisher.

“This is for the whole community,” he said. “It’s a way for people to practice courage, honor and perseverance. It’s based on principles that teach kids to be accountable, to do what they say they’re going to do — to help out mom and dad a little more. Martial arts gives people self-confidence.”

Fisher said his classes also incorporate taekwondo, boxing, grappling and arnis, the Filipino martial arts using a baton.

The little church has an arsenal of wood boards, a life-size grappling dummy to spar and wrestle with, a kickboxing bag, batons, bow staffs and more to be used for student practice.

Last week, the rapt students tiptoed their way through target circles on the mat before blocking Fisher’s sparring pool noodle and dropkicking a shield held by Fisher’s son, Zach.

“There’s varying levels of student attention spans,” Fisher said. “Some have short-bursts here and there but this is a Crock-Pot approach rather than cooking with a microwave. Some kids will come and go, but the true way takes perseverance.”

The classes are offered to ages 6 and up, but Fisher said that it is determined on a case-by-case basis. Younger ones attending with older siblings are often invited to participate.

“It’s funny to see when the younger sibling pays more attention,” said Fisher’s wife, Janeen. “They come and stand in the back and they’re as young as 3 to 4 years old, and they pay attention and are really good at it.”

Fisher learned the art about six years ago the same way he teaches his students now.

“It’s a tiered discipline or system. Everything is earned, belt-by-belt,” he said.

The adult classes run in six- or eight-week sessions, focusing on a different skill each session. Anyone can join at any time and be able to jump in, according to Janeen.

The group will do exercises in being alert to surroundings then go on to cover quick deflective sequences.

“People need to first be comfortable saying something when their personal space is being invaded and then defend themselves,” Fisher said. “We have exercises where I’ll block the exit and approach them. They have to find a way out and that may be with body language and by using hand gestures that appear defenseless but aren’t.”

“Teaching self-defense is a pressure test to help people identify situations that they’re not comfortable with and how to respond to them.”

Enrolling students should wear comfortable clothing, and set short- and longterm discipline goals

Lighthouse on the Rock offers its classes based on donations. Its youth martial arts classes are 5:30 p.m. Monday and Thursday, and at 11 a.m. Saturday, following a 10:15 a.m. adult self-defense class for ages 13 and up. The church is located at 99.3, oceanside. For more information, call Fisher at 305-451-6212 or visit lighthousekeylargo.com.

tjava@keysnews.com

THREADS
Martial Arts & Religion (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49824-Martial-Arts-amp-Religion)
Any Christian Martial Arts Schools? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44645-Any-Christian-Martial-Arts-Schools)

[GeneChing]

There's a news vid behind the link. Anyone ever see this group before?


Ministry uses martial arts to appeal to audiences (https://www.fourstateshomepage.com/news/ministry-uses-martial-arts-to-appeal-to-audiences/1727526317)
By: Adam Sherwinski
Posted: Jan 25, 2019 10:36 PM CST
Updated: Jan 25, 2019 10:36 PM CST

An organization uses martial arts to reach out to their audience tonight in Carterville.

The Combat Team is a ministry that travels across the globe breaking bricks and performing karate skills. When breaking a board, the martial artist must look beyond the object and use it as an analogy on how we can look beyond our problems in our lives with help from God.

Members of the group also tie in their testimonies on how God has help them in their lives. The founder of The Combat Team says that he enjoys entertaining the crowd while spreading their message about Jesus.

"We get to come out here. And we get to do some karate. And then we get to love on the people. You know, after we are done, we see them, give them high fives, hugs. It's about just sharing God's word and then loving on people,” says Brian Bryan, CEO of the Combat Team.

The Combat Team will be performing again tomorrow night at 7 at the Carterville Community Center.

[GeneChing]

Fort Walton Beach church offers faith-based taekwondo (https://www.nwfdailynews.com/entertainmentlife/20190830/fort-walton-beach-church-offers-faith-based-taekwondo)

url("https://www.nwfdailynews.com/storyimage/DA/20190830/ENTERTAINMENTLIFE/190839926/AR/0/AR-190839926.jpg?Q=75&maxW=1920&maxH=1920")

By SAVANNAH EVANOFF

Posted at 9:21 AM
Updated at 10:40 AM

Fort Walton Beach First United Methodist Church offers a Martial Arts Ministry with biweekly taekwondo classes for children and adults.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHS27GE9I0

Dennis Barebo loves seeing the look on students’ faces when he changes the color of their belts.

He loves watching their confidence grow when they break a board with their bare hand, lead a class or memorize a form, a movement pattern. Barebo, a sixth-degree master in taekwondo, started the Martial Arts Ministry at Fort Walton Beach First United Methodist Church in April 2008 so he could teach children and adults the true purpose of the sport.

“Everybody thinks martial arts is all about punching and kicking,” Barebo said. “It’s not. Yes, it involves punching and kicking, but most of it is what’s behind the scenes — teaching people how to stand still, how to respect others, have self-discipline. That’s what it’s all about.”

After 24 years as the church’s business administrator, Barebo was allowed to retire in May, but only under one condition: He had to continue his martial arts ministry. It continues to thrive more than 10 years later.

Going to the mat

When Barebo had the idea, he took it to the mat.

He spent 2007 pitching the Martial Arts Ministry to church committees. The class started with 20 students in a small, carpeted classroom that couldn’t hold more than 15.

Carpet wasn’t ideal.

“By the end of the day, your feet would be killing you,” Barebo said. “We kept growing. People kept calling, and I never advertised. I had a waiting list of about two years.”


MARTIAL ARTS MINISTRY INFO

WHEN

MONDAY/THURSDAY

11 a.m. - Adults

4:30 p.m. - Mighty Tigers (ages 4-6)

5 p.m. - Youth Black Belt Club (ages 7-11 of white, yellow and orange belts)

5:45 p.m. - Youth Master Club (Ages 7-11 of green through black belts)

WHERE

Fort Walton Beach First United Methodist Church, 103 First St. SE, Fort Walton Beach

CONTACT

For pricing and other information, contact Dennis Barebo at 850-585-8209 or onesamurai@cox.net.

The ministry expanded into two classrooms at the back of the church, but it needed more. The church offered a larger space, but with one problem: concrete floors.

Again, not ideal.

In 2015, Barebo wrote a grant proposal to The Ware Foundation that earned enough money to take his idea to the mat — a giant blue one, to be exact. Now more than 120 students and 15 volunteer instructors shuffle across that mat every week.

The ministry serves all ages, starting with the Mighty Tigers group of ages 4 to 6 and ending with adults as old as in their 80s. It even has its own newsletter, the Kick’n Times, to keep people up to date on taekwondo news, facts and events.

When Barebo started taekwondo in the 1980s through the American Taekwondo Association, he never thought this is where he would be.

“When I was coming up through my taekwondo training, I told my instructor, ‘I don’t want to deal with little kids,’” Barebo said. ”‘They drive me crazy.’ It turns out, the 3-, 4- and 5-year-olds are great because they love the fact that you sit down and talk to them and have an adult conversation with them about their day.”

Some parents are apprehensive when they first see their children in martial arts.

“The parents are like, ‘Oh, my gosh, my kids will never sit still,’” Barebo said. “Give ’em time. Watch the kids who have done it for five or six years. You watch a kid who starts at age 4, and by the time they’re 10, they’ve been doing martial arts for half their life. It’s ingrained in them. Those are the kids you see who stand and go, ‘Yes, ma’am.’ ‘Yes, sir.’ They’re very polite. They change. That’s what’s exciting — to watch the positive changes martial arts has on people.”

‘God’s always watching’

Sports are expensive.

Martial arts are especially financially demanding because athletes train 12 months a year, Barebo said.

“There’s a lot of families that can’t afford it,” Barebo said. “We started this ministry so that anybody who wants to be part of a martial arts program can do it.”

Barebo intentionally made the class affordable. Dues go toward paying for belts and student events, such as bowling and pizza nights. The students are a mixture of church members and non-church members.

“A lot of parents like it because it’s hosted by a church, so they feel like it’s a safer environment,” Barebo said. “They like the fact that it’s a Christian-based program.”

The students learn taekwondo, self-defense and character traits. Being hosted in a church gives the class a different atmosphere, Barebo said.

While not every class incorporates Scripture, Barebo will use it as a foundation during “mat chats.” In a recent one, he used Colossians 3:20, which refers to children obeying their parents.

“I said, ‘If you respect your mom and she says, “Don’t eat the cookies,” and she bakes all these cookies and you decide to take one, what happens when you take it?’” Barebo said. “I said, ‘Who’s gonna see it?’ God’s always watching. You might pull one over on mom, but you’re not going to pull one over on God.”

Pastor Dave Barkalow thinks the ministry teaches important lessons, citing a phrase Barebo says at every belt test.

“He says, ‘Actually, a black belt is a white belt who didn’t give up,’” Barkalow said. “I think that’s such a great lesson for our students to push through adversity.”

If there’s one thing the class isn’t about, it’s violence. He teaches students to fight so they never have to, Barebo said.

“Come to a class,” Barkalow said. “You will see pretty quickly this is not about beating people up. This is about being mentally fit, physically fit and caring and having good character, common sense.”

‘One-stop shop’

Taekwondo was supposed to be for Pamela Moyer’s son, Ty.

When the Destin resident enrolled him during preschool, she admits it turned into something for her. Moyer has gone for 10 years and is now an instructor.

“It definitely surprised me,” Moyer said. “It’s cathartic. If you ever have a problem, you talk about it with your colleagues, other people there, as you’re still learning and getting exercise. It’s a one-stop shop.”

Taekwondo taught her she was capable of so much more than she thought.

“It helps you explore that, that you can do more than you think you can achieve — whether it’s breaking a board or memorizing a form,” Moyer said. “You can reach your best potential among friends, because it’s such an encouraging environment.”

Three of Barkalow’s children are in the Martial Arts Ministry: Rosie, 8, Michael, 6, and Xavier, 5. Taekwondo has had the greatest effect on Rosie, who Barkalow said is the shy and reserved one.

“She’s tried other sports, but she never found her thing,” Barkalow said. “When she found taekwondo – it’s her thing. She’s at home practicing her forms, working on her push-ups. She has me here for the special practices.”

Two months ago, Barebo named Rosie one of the junior instructors to help lead the preschool students.

“It’s been the highlight of her year,” Barkalow said. “It’s been so good for her self-esteem, her confidence, her activity level.”

Barebo won’t take credit for the ministry’s impact. He points to a photo of the other instructors, and attributes it to their volunteer work.

He is the rock, though, Moyer said.

“He has been so generous with his time, energy and giving — that to me is a great leader slash instructor,” Moyer said. “Having such a strong instructor has carried me through all these years and makes me want to keep coming back.”

Taekwondo (https://www.martialartsmart.com/tae-kwon-do.html) + Nunchuks (https://www.martialartsmart.com/nunchuck-nunchakus.html). :)

[GeneChing]

I admire his trash recycling.


Kings Mountain pastor turns martial arts skills into ministry (https://www.shelbystar.com/story/news/2020/12/28/pastor-turns-martial-arts-skills-into-ministry/3989631001/)
A hurt, angry little boy Walking in their shoes
Dustin George
The Shelby Star
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/12/22/NSHS/006de4d3-499e-4fc0-8029-d9cff787065d-Eng.jpg?width=600&height=920&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
Robert Eng III serves as the lead pastor at New Life Family Worship Center in Kings Mountain.
Robert Eng III has a way with trash. More aptly, he has a knack for turning someone else's trash into his own brand of treasure.

Lead pastor at New Life Family Worship Center in Kings Mountain, Eng has over the last 20 years built a church out of scraps wherever he could find them.

"This building was in the weeds in Chester, South Carolina. A church had bought it and didn't put it up. Weeds and vines and everything had grown up, and we had to get chainsaws to get it out," said Eng.

The canopy over the church entrance? That came from a service station in Kings Mountain, set atop a pair of handmade stone columns. The doors to the church sanctuary were salvaged from a nearby hospital going through a renovation several years ago, as was most of the fluorescent lighting now used inside the building.

Nearly every appliance, most of the furniture, pieces of tile and even doorknobs of New Life Family Worship Center are salvaged goods.

Turning things or people no one else could or would otherwise want into something with purpose is Eng's thing. Probably, he says, because he knows what it feels like to be broken and unwanted himself.

A hurt, angry little boy

The son of a teenaged single mother, Eng was raised in an old sharecropper's house in the Bethlehem area. At around the age of 5, he started taking karate, and he excelled.

"I was this hurt, angry little boy. Anybody that got in my way -- I wasn't a bully -- but I wanted to hurt them," said Eng.

As he got older his skills led him to the Army, where he continued to train and eventually started organizing and participating in tough man contests -- letting people hit him or kick him as hard as they could for extra money.

Eng's skills carried him back into civilian life and he opened a number of martial arts training schools, where he trained championship-winning athletes.

"That testosterone macho John Wayne or Rambo mentality, only the strong survive and that sort of thing, that was my forte," Eng said. "I've been there, I've done it and I've seen it. I laid it all out on the bed, and there was still a hole. I had to ask myself, what is it for?"

So Eng decided to take things in a different direction. He resolved to take the skills he'd learned over a lifetime of fighting and hurting himself and others and put it to some good.

Walking in their shoes

Eventually, he did. And in 1998, he began work to plant New Life Family Worship in Kings Mountain, where he could go on to help others like him.

"I was angry. I was bitter, and I had an authority problem," he said. "And a lot of people are the same way. They have been discarded, and they feel that same way."

Since starting New Life Family Worship, Eng has made a point to look for people other churches won't take and reaching out to them as ministry.

"I'll take a group of child molesters to IHOP, and I'll just talk to them," he said. "Many of them want to come and do right, but no one will give them a job, no churches want them. It's hard. I tell them I am willing to give you that chance, but we are going to watch you, and you have to communicate with us."

Over the last 20 years Eng has built a roster of associate pastors for his church, many of whom were once like him, angry, hurting and just in need of some love. Thanks to the skills he spent a lifetime learning, he says he's found ways to connect with them and help them turn around into someone able to benefit their community.

"If you've walked in those shoes then you have a story. (The Bible) says, 'They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony,' he said. "Everybody has a testimony in their life and God wants to use where you've been and what you've done to communicate and to benefit what you've done."

Dustin George can be reached at Dustin.George@ShelbyStar.com. FInd him on Twitter @DustinLGeorge.

Want to go?

New Life Family Worship Center

428 Oak Grove Road, Kings Mountain

704-739-9371

Service times

Sunday: 10:30 a.m. Worship service

6:30 p.m. Worship service

Tuesday: 6:30 p.m. Bible study

Wednesday: 6:30 p.m. Adult service, Youth service and Children service

*Nursery is available for Sunday and Wednesday services

[GeneChing]

Faith: Classes at Endwell Church of Christ mix martial arts with Bible lessons (https://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/connections/faith/2021/11/16/martial-arts-mixed-bible-lessons-endwell-churchs-classes/6391419001/)
Connie McKinneySpecial to Binghamton Press & Sun-Bulletin

Students punched the air, kicked and blocked punches as they practiced martial arts in an Endwell basement recently.

They could have been part of any martial arts class — with some exceptions, such as students starting class with prayer.

Welcome to Curry’s Progressive Martial Arts, held twice a week in the basement of the Endwell Church of Christ. Tamika Curry, a fourth-degree blackbelt who is married to the church’s pastor, David Curry, teaches the classes, which incorporate several martial arts, including Aikido, Judo and Jujitsu.

Classes are open to students 4 years old and up, including adults. This is her fifth year teaching at the Endwell church, although she’s been practicing and teaching martial arts for 28 years.

“Most martial arts teach philosophy,” including self-control, patience and discipline, said Curry, known as Miss Tamika to students. Martial arts are similar to Christianity.

“Christianity makes our martial arts better,” she said. “Martial arts makes our Christianity better. They blend into each other.”

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/11/11/PBIN/971ac6d7-1bb1-40b9-9d7b-911b4e82ad58-COVER_TOPkarate2.jpg?width=660&height=495&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
From left, J.D. Wojnar, Jared Hartwig and his older brother, Caleb Hartwig practice punches during Curry’s Progressive Martial Arts at the Endwell Church of Christ. The program blends the traditional practice of martial arts with prayer, a lesson about the Bible and the memorization of Bible verses.
Each class features a “mat chat” where students pause, sit in a circle and learn about a moral from the Bible. During a recent class, Curry compared jigsaw puzzles with the many elements that make up Christians.

“As Christians, we should love God and love our neighbors,” she said. “We should be reading our Bibles. We should be praying. We should be helping others. If you’re missing some of those things, does that make you not a Christian? No. But you’re missing some things.”

Just like all martial arts classes, students work on earning different colored belts by performing martial arts skills. But to earn a belt at the church program, students also must memorize and explain Bible verses, Curry said.

Each belt level has a character trait based on the fruit of the Spirit, she said. For example, a white belt is based on the fruit of love, and the accompanying Bible verse is John 3:16.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/11/11/PBIN/290bbf2d-bef5-45c3-9dd9-14e58a196aac-165554908karate3.jpg?width=660&height=495&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
J.D. Wojnar, left, practices a karate move with Kaelyn Hartwig as her brother, Caleb Hartwig, looks on. The students take classes at Curry’s Progressive Martial Arts at the Endwell Church of Christ.
J.D. Wojnar, 15, who takes the class with his sister, Josie; and mother, Julie; said he’s learned a lot from the classes.

“I am learning how to respect my parents and be more diligent in my work,” he said. “Since I have joined, I have been more diligent in helping around the house and keeping it cleaner.”

His mother, Julie, is currently the only adult in the class.

“It’s challenging at times,” she said. “I have to work a little harder than the kids."

Jared Hartwig, 14, who takes classes with his older brother, Caleb; and younger sister, Kaelyn; said he was drawn to the classes because he likes sports.

“It’s definitely good physical exercise,” he said. “But we are given things to think about. We are learning morals, too.”

In August, the class celebrated its first black belt: Seth Whitbeck, 18. He is away at SUNY Morrisville, where he is a freshman and was unavailable for an interview. But his mother, Michelle Whitbeck, said the program benefitted him in many ways.

“Learning control of body and mind helped him growing up,” she said. “It gave him focus.”

Seth keeps the black belt on a desk in his dorm room, his mother said. The belt inspires him and reminds him of what he’s learned from the classes, including perseverance, focus and being a good Christian.

Endwell Church of Christ

The Rev. David Curry serves as pastor of the church, at 3600 Country Club Road in Endwell. Sunday services are held at 10:30 a.m. For more information about the church, go to its website at https://endwellchurchofchrist.com/ or find the church on Facebook. I guess we get one or two of these per year now...

[GeneChing]

With martial arts, priest helps students make body, mind, soul connection (https://www.catholicnews.com/with-martial-arts-priest-helps-students-make-body-mind-soul-connection/)
https://www.catholicnews.com/wp-content/uploads/custom/20220419T1641-INDIANA-TAE-KWON-DO-1524903-1536x1096.jpg
Father Guy Roberts instructs Atlas Jackson, a student at St. Barnabas School in Indianapolis, in taekwondo March 9, 2022. Father Roberts, a black belt in taekwondo, is pastor of St. Barnabas Parish. (CNS photo/John Shaughnessy, The Criterion)

By: John Shaughnessy

Date: April 21, 2022

INDIANAPOLIS (CNS) — Watching Father Guy Roberts lead children in a martial arts class with a distinctly Catholic emphasis, it’s hard to decide what to focus on first.

There’s the sight of the 54-year-old priest, a black belt in taekwondo, spinning and unleashing a whirlwind kick of controlled power that leaves the suddenly wide-eyed boys and girls in awe.

There’s the angelic smile of 11-year-old Elroy Jackson, one of the 35 grade school students who train with Father Roberts, as he shared the news that he has broken wooden boards in half.

And there was the look of pure joy on the face of Claire Jackson — mother of five, including Elroy, a black belt herself and an assistant instructor — as she explained one of the special reasons she loves having her children participate in taekwondo.

“They stay active, and it wears them out,” she said with a wide grin. “They go to bed at night and fall asleep, instead of laying there asking me questions.” Her smile grew even wider as she added, “It’s beautiful.”

The impact of the Monday and Wednesday afterschool sessions also is powerful for the participating students at St. Barnabas School in Indianapolis, including the way it has deepened their connection with Father Roberts, their pastor.

“One of the reasons I like doing this is because it helps the children to see me as a priest outside of just liturgical celebration,” Father Roberts told The Criterion, newspaper of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. “There’s much more of a familiarity with me. When they see me out on campus, they’ll say hello to me. And they’ll come up to me after Mass and say hello.”

Fifth-grader Elroy offers a more succinct view of the bond between Father Roberts and his young taekwondo students. Asked what he thinks of the priest, Elroy flashed another smile and said, “He’s awesome!”

Father Roberts hopes the martial arts lessons also will help the children grow personally in certain qualities and even be a way to deepen their faith and their relationship with God. He had all those goals in mind when he started his own taekwondo school called Taijido Kwan.

The priest’s approach to his classes includes an emphasis on taekwondo’s precepts — integrity, self-control, indomitable spirit, perseverance and courtesy. There’s also the foundation of the Catholic faith, tying in the Ten Commandments to the lessons.

“Sometimes, I’ll ask them, ‘What do you think the First Commandment is all about — having no other gods?’ Then they have to reflect on it,” he said. “I want their taekwondo practice to be more than just kicking and punching. It’s about how they conduct themselves in life.

“So, we talk about things like, ‘You shall not kill’ and ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ I just like to get the feedback from them, what do they think these things mean. I ask them, ‘How do we live these things out?’ It’s interesting the answers I get.”

Barefoot and wearing a white martial arts uniform, just as the children do, Father Roberts starts each lesson with a prayer. Then he moves the children into a warm-up routine that includes 25 jumping jacks, pushups, stretches and rotations of the hips, knees and neck. During stretches, he touches his palms on the floor without bending his knees.

In doing pushups, he finishes a set of 20 with the children by clapping his hands on the way up between each of the last few pushups.

Together, instructors and students focus on doing the standard movements of taekwondo, followed by working on the proper forms for kicks and flips, and later learning the best way to defend yourself against two opponents.

Father Roberts is at the heart of it all, working up a sweat, his face turning ruddier as the class progresses. And he offers constant praise and encouragement.

“I want to build confidence, self-respect, discipline, respect for others, the ability to know that if they apply themselves, they can accomplish practically anything in life,” he said.

“Recently, we’ve been doing a lot of running jumps, and the children are amazed that they can actually accomplish some of these things,” he said. “I always tell them their biggest opponent in life is themselves. If they can overcome themselves, they can overcome about anything.”

This is his first year as pastor at St. Barnabas Parish. Previously, he taught taekwondo to schoolchildren during his 15 years as pastor of St. Joan of Arc Parish in Indianapolis.

There he saw how the lessons helped increase the respect, self-discipline and even the grades of many children in the program. In some cases, it changed lives even more dramatically.

“There’s one boy who’s now in the Navy running the nuclear reactor on a submarine,” Father Roberts said. “He was very, very shy and quiet. Taekwondo was about the only sport he did. He stayed with it all the way until he went into the Navy.

“I’ve seen it help them achieve some things that maybe they wouldn’t have had the confidence to achieve if they hadn’t challenged themselves through taekwondo.”

It also changed the priest’s life when he was 7.

As a kid, he first became involved in taekwondo because of a 1970s television show called “Kung Fu.” From watching the show, his parents looked at their reserved son and thought it would be good exercise for him and increase his confidence.

A self-described “spiritual kid,” he also saw something spiritual in martial arts. Yet a year after he started the sport, he was seriously injured as a passenger in a pickup truck that was struck by a train near his family’s home in Brownsburg, Indiana.

Both his legs and ankles were broken in the crash, and it was more than a year before he could run and play again.

He drifted away from martial arts, but his interest in developing his spirituality continued to grow through the years. Even though he was raised a Baptist, he started thinking about becoming a Catholic priest when he was a freshman at Butler University in Indianapolis. He has been a priest in the archdiocese since 2005.

He also developed a renewed interest in taekwondo as an adult.

When he was in his mid-40s, a doctor told him that considering the extent of the damage he suffered to his legs as a child, Father Roberts should have been relying on a cane to walk by that point in his life. Instead, he continues jumping and unleashing whirlwind kicks.

“This has been a blessing for me,” he said about the strength, balance and flexibility he has gained from practicing taekwondo. “It’s kept me young.”

For adults in the parish, he leads a class in tai chi on Saturday mornings at St. Barnabas.

People need to work to take care of the body that God has given them, as well as strive to develop the mind and “having that proper spirit,” Father Roberts said.

“There’s something about this kind of cultivation through martial arts that helps us have an appreciation for that which is larger than ourselves,” he said. “In our case as Catholics, we understand that to be God.

“Much of the martial arts world is either Buddhist or Taoist, coming from Asia, but we have that whole Christian connection with Jesus Christ. Who is in better shape than Jesus Christ? He knew how to take care of his body, his mental health, his spiritual health.”

Father Roberts flashed a smile and added, “Maybe if Jesus were at St. Barnabas, maybe he’d do taekwondo and tai chi with us.”

– – –

Shaughnessy is assistant editor at The Criterion, newspaper of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis.

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[GeneChing]

Florida pastor, who’s also a mixed martial arts master, arrested for alleged sex abuse of teens (https://nypost.com/2022/09/22/florida-pastor-mixed-martial-arts-master-arrested-for-alleged-sex-abuse-of-teens/)
By Selim Algar
September 22, 2022 7:48pm Updated

A Florida pastor was arrested this week for allegedly having sex with two teen girls he met through his church and kung fu dojo, according to a police report.

Roberson Douge, 42, was booked into Brevard County jail Thursday after the alleged victims contacted police this week and accused him of predatory sexual behavior.

Douge serves as a pastor at Apostolic Church of Christ, and also owns the Tiger Claw Kung Fu Academy in Palm Bay, according to police papers.

Cops said one of the girls told her friend she was troubled by her relations with Douge, prompting the other to recount a similar experience with him.

Neither victim has been named because they are both under 18, but one victim told investigators she first met Douge after her family moved to Palm Bay and joined his church in 2019.

The teen, whose age was not specified, told police she often spent time with Douge’s family and he would engage in sexual activity with her while driving her back to home.

The second victim said she volunteered at his martial arts studio and they had relations in various places inside the location.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/09/Roberson-Douge.jpg?quality=75&strip=all
Florida pastor and martial artist Roberson Douge was arrested for allegedly having sex with two teenagers he met through his church and kung fu dojo.
Brevard County Sheriff's Office
One of the teens told police that she confided to her boyfriend about the relationship and that he urged her to contact police.

Both teens eventually called cops, who set up a controlled call with Douge between week with one of them.

The pastor begged the girl not to tell anyone about his misconduct and apologized repeatedly.

Douge now faces 10 counts each of sexual battery on a victim between the ages of 12 and 16 and sexual battery on a victim between the ages of 16 and 17 by an offender older than 24.

The Tiger Claw Kung Fu Academy in Palm Bay is not connected to our Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php)

Busted-MMA-fighters-and-fights (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52219-Busted-MMA-fighters-and-fights)
Martial-Arts-amp-Religion (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49824-Martial-Arts-amp-Religion)

[GeneChing]

This is the Way…of the Dao (https://ymaa.com/articles/2023/09/way%E2%80%A6-dao)by Gene Ching

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