Bow Sim Mark's approach to Yu Hai's Mantis Form (a must see)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Though it is "standardized wushu" Bow Sim Mark performs the form with an explosive internal flavor, i.e., a rippling internal connectedness, that I have never seen before with other people that I have seen doing this form: not even by its creator, Yu Hai.

Found on Youtube.

Enjoy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsfTDCxwEo

[Steeeve]

Bow sim mark


Learned from sifu Fu Wing Fei......the son of GM Fu cheng Son....in the Wudang Chuan (Taiji,Pak kua ,xing yi) .....nothing to do with Mantis:)

Steeve

[mickey]

Hi Steeeve,

I agree with you. I never called it traditional mantis. I wouldn't DARE think to do so. It is the internal expression that I am looking at.


mickey

[Three Harmonies]

A very nice dance. Nothing less. Nothing more.
Jake :cool:

[doug maverick]

very nice form. i see the internal your talking about, alot of whipping power and fa jing in her movements. good ****, imagine having a mom like that growing up and you step out of line.

[mantid1]

All forms from any style are dances.

[B.Tunks]

good ****, imagine having a mom like that growing up and you step out of line.

Ask Donnie Yen what it would be like.

bt

[doug maverick]

thats why i asked that question in the first place. cause thats donnies mom

[18elders]

do you know who posted the clip?
that is off old 8mm film that she record all of her forms on.

[doug maverick]

who knows but that form looked top shelf.

[mickey]

18elders,

I do not know the person who posted the form. I do believe it is from 8mm. Bow Sim Mark used to sell those films, so I don't think it was pilfered nor "top secret." She had a large (for the time) repertoire of forms on 8mm available for purchase. Some were quite advanced.


mickey

[SifuAbel]

Greetings,

Though it is "standardized wushu" Bow Sim Mark performs the form with an explosive internal flavor, i.e., a rippling internal connectedness, that I have never seen before with other people that I have seen doing this form: not even by its creator, Yu Hai.

Found on Youtube.

Enjoy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsfTDCxwEo
It was a good performance. But I don't agree that it was better than the creator of the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K2Ox2-Z5kQ

[mickey]

SifuAbel,

I am refering to the internal component that she expresses. Yu Hai does not have this.

mickey

[SifuAbel]

of course. :rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

I went to See Bow Sim mark several years ago.
Of course I asked her about her Mantis as I had seen her perform just about her entire system on video.

I asked her about her Mantis and this is what she said.

The style of mantis was condensed into the best series of movements and a single form was created (talking about the Yu Hai form).

Kevin

www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

[Satori Science]

SifuAbel,

I am refering to the internal component that she expresses. Yu Hai does not have this.

mickey

I beg to disagree, Yu Hai is the "God of Mantis" for a reason, when he moves it is harder to catch but Bo SIm mark is moving a lot slower and emphasising on making the jing more visable. Just my impression as a practioner of this form who has no other interest in wushu *(aside from my practice as a teenager).

[SifuAbel]

It really makes me wonder what people actually think they are seeing when the word "internal" comes into play.

Not to knock BSM , BTW. The lady is awesome and has been for years.

[Three Harmonies]

98% of the people out there do not even know what "internal" means bro! Good point! Is'nt is a contradictory term to say you "see" something "internal" anyways?
Jake :cool:

[Satori Science]

98% of the people out there do not even know what "internal" means bro! Good point! Is'nt is a contradictory term to say you "see" something "internal" anyways?
Jake :cool:

Well said,

[mickey]

Greetings,

Re: Internal.

Are you guys looking for a good ........ conversation? :)


mickey

[Satori Science]

Greetings,

Re: Internal.

Are you guys looking for a good ........ conversation? :)


mickey

always,

Personally I practice "internal" and "external" Chinese arts and see little difference, just execution and emphasis. The expression of power in Bo Sim Mark's performance is (to me) also clearly present in YU Hai's except that it is inside his body, what you see is his expression of power not him generating power. I learned the form from my Chen Taji teacher who trainined the form in Shandong, even met Yu Hia's son while learning it. I play it with Bo Sim Marks flavour, the reeling silk character but see those as inherent components of the form coming from Yu hai, But I also play it much faster and thought she was over emphasising a bit and going to slow (BTW not an actuall criticsm as this form has tons of fun small circle reeling in it and I oftern practice it slow but for a performance it wasn't to my taste)

I am planning to compete with this form in March, maybe I will put a practice tape up next month or my performance after the tournament. \

love the good conversation, :D

[SifuAbel]

To me the emphasis between internal v external is really only casually connected with its movement dynamics. An internal style is given its moniker of internal because of its practice in cultivating internal energy and/or affecting your internal systems by manipulating breathing, circulation, etc.

The body dynamic in movemet is present in both forms. Doing it slower and emphasizing a particular stepping does not make something "internal".

Saying one has more 'internal" than the other is really non sequitur.

[spiralstair]

Bo Sim Mark

Around 30 years ago in Boston Wah Lum was one of the only schools that held large performances that attracted attention outside of the CMA community. I remember Master Chan would sit backstage, off to the side with the other masters, some local Boston masters like Gin Soon Chu, Bo Sim Mark, some invited like Wai Hong, Mok Poi On, Brendan Lai, Chan Tai San.
The masters often wouldn’t even look up during their own school's performances, they would be chatting back on the side….then Bo Sim Mark would get up to perform, and boom…they’d all be over at the curtain watching.

Now 30 years later we’ve got guys calling her stuff from that time “a dance, nothing less, nothing more”

Has Martial knowledge really moved on that far, or has the internet spawned a generation of know-it-all ‘Junior Masters’ who have more to say than to accomplish.

Martial heritage as ‘Reality Television’. Don’t like someone? Vote em off,

like you could do better….

[SifuAbel]

Now 30 years later we’ve got guys calling her stuff from that time “a dance, nothing less, nothing more”

Has Martial knowledge really moved on that far, or has the internet spawned a generation of know-it-all ‘Junior Masters’ who have more to say than to accomplish.

Martial heritage as ‘Reality Television’. Don’t like someone? Vote em off,

like you could do better….

Thats a whole other thread. Her skill is unquestionable. I agree however that there are too many little generals out there brewing beer from the little red cookbook.

[bakxierboxer]

Has Martial knowledge really moved on that far, or has the internet spawned a generation of know-it-all ‘Junior Masters’.....

Perhaps you'd get more/better use of the title I came up with: "Half-Masters"
(or is it too "descriptive"?)

[Satori Science]

Bo Sim Mark

Now 30 years later we’ve got guys calling her stuff from that time “a dance, nothing less, nothing more”

like you could do better….


Who said that, perhaps I need to reread the thread?

Okay re-read it, see what you mean.
No question of her talent, power or skill. Just watch her Fu syle Bagua some time, or her taiji, one legged standing split kicks held at full extension.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Some people tend to read too much into things. The intention of this thread was to get you to take a look at this Master's kung fu. To be more exact, what she is bringing to the form. I never said that Yu Hai's performance sucked. I like both performances. This thread was not to slight anyone.

When Shaolin temple came out, I sat through the movie twice just to see Yu Hai's temple performance (I still believe that they cut down the fight scene with him and Yu Chenghui). I did the same thing in Nan Bei Shaolin, where Yu Hai's character played the mantis form to push out his cold.

If you take the time to read my first post, you might read something a little different.

mickey

[Satori Science]

Greetings,

Though it is "standardized wushu" Bow Sim Mark performs the form with an explosive internal flavor, i.e., a rippling internal connectedness, that I have never seen before with other people that I have seen doing this form: not even by its creator, Yu Hai.

Found on Youtube.

Enjoy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsfTDCxwEo

I re-read it, if you are referring to her emphasis in performance, the "rippling internal connection" then yes I agree, she is exceptional and I was glad to see the vid.

My "dispute" with your point about Yu Hai was that my chen Taiji teacher plays the form with the same kind of rippling, circular power. But he always praises Yu Hai for being the source of that jing in the form, . Now clearly the flavor is very different between the two masters but when I see Yu Hai's form I see the explosive demonstration of his power, his fa-jing. A nice conversation regardless, perhaps just two different opinions. But from your last post I feel like you may have the same love of Yu Hai we have in our Taiji circle. :D

[mickey]

Satori Science,

If you Sifu learned it that way from Yu Hai, then it is entirely possible that Bow sim Mark learned it that way. I have to take into consideration that Yu Hai has had a back injury.

If I learned anything from your last post, it is that Yu Hai is a really good teacher.


By the way, the people I paid attention to in Shaolin temple were Yu Hai, Yu Cheng Hui, and Ji Chun Hua; especially, Ji Chun Hua.


mickey

[Qixing Tanglang]

Nice performance.

I always get a little uneasy though considering this form was made for modern wushu taolu competition.


The whole discussion about internal versus external on this thread is crap. Sorry.

Cheers,
N

[Three Harmonies]

She does wush guys! Very nice wushu, but it has NO MARTIAL APPLICABILITY!! You cannot say she has amazing power by watching her doa form. Half of those movements are not even in the Mantis repetoire! They are performance based, not combative based.
As for the internal vs. external BS......internal has nothing to do with Qi gong, and breathing etc. it is simply a set of structural alignments that allow proper power and force to be issued with maximum effectiveness. Not about magic guys.

Jake :cool:

[spiralstair]

So as you watch her perform you see no:
"set of structural alignments that allow proper power and force to be issued with maximum effectiveness"
It's just "wush" in your learned mind, must have "NO MARTIAL APPLICABILITY" because you say so, because it has nothing of your own trendy definition of internal as quoted above.

Guess those Masters that used to watch her didn't know what we know now.
Thank God for the Internet.
Everything's Free, nothing's learned, nothing's developed, everybody's a critic.

[Three Harmonies]

If you say so bro.
Thanks for reminding me why I do not post here that often anymore:rolleyes:

[spiralstair]

Don't worry about it.
You'll forget soon enough.:(

[Satori Science]

Guess those Masters that used to watch her didn't know what we know now.
Thank God for the Internet.
Everything's Free, nothing's learned, nothing's developed, everybody's a critic.

That made me soooo happy, :eek:

[Qixing Tanglang]

Martial power can only realistically be demonstrated in application. You guys should know better - forms just dont cut it.

Jake you should also know better too. Act your age around here.

Nate

[Redfish]

I guess it's not nice to point this out as so many people do Modern Wushu these days. But it is a gymnastic sport that resembles kung fu. I know plenty of dancers who are ripped, flexible and have explosive moves - but they're not doing kung fu and they can't use the moves for fighting.

It's also not enough to reverse engineer a few apps into the forms either.

Anyway, the Yu Hai Wushu Mantis form is not useful for a discussion on Kung Fu. Except to lament the damage done to the scene by Modern Wushu in general.

[Three Harmonies]

Nate-
Bugger off.

Redfish-
Jesus, I think the day has come.......hell is officially frozen!!! :eek::eek: I actually agree with what you say 100%!!:eek:

Jake ;)

[mantis108]

I guess it's not nice to point this out as so many people do Modern Wushu these days. But it is a gymnastic sport that resembles kung fu. I know plenty of dancers who are ripped, flexible and have explosive moves - but they're not doing kung fu and they can't use the moves for fighting.

It's also not enough to reverse engineer a few apps into the forms either.

Anyway, the Yu Hai Wushu Mantis form is not useful for a discussion on Kung Fu. Except to lament the damage done to the scene by Modern Wushu in general.

Given it's - 50 c with the windchill outside and I agreed with Jake that Hell is frozen officially (plus global warming is such a myth) that I agreed with you 100% also. :D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[yu shan]

Are you saying it is 50 below zero? :eek: And we think 10 above is bad!

My Shifu talks about his trip to see you Robert. One thing he told me, it was very cold and the local woman still dressed like it was summer. ;) I have to keep this "G" rated.

Back in the old days here in the states there wernt too many Masters to look up to, at least in my area. I was always inspired to see Bow Sim Mark perform and Chan Pui for that matter. Now a days we are rich with teachers and quality kung fu. JMO

[Steeeve]

http://fustyle.org/images/gal_yu_4.jpg

http://fustyle.org/images/gal_yu_5.jpg

:D

[mickey]

Greetings everyone,

I never thought that this thread would take such a tangent.

Three Harmonies,

I write this because of what you believe internal is. I agree with your statement about structural alignments, etc. But that is not all there is. I have seen in my youth guys with remarkable fighting abilities fade away rapidly in their late twenties and early thirties just because they were missing the chi component in their training. Believe me, they had the alignments, the structure, and the strength. It was disheartening to behold. I learned about the importance of having balance in one's martial practice from a seminar conducted by a very controversial figure: Kwan Sai Hung. It was the first time in my training that I experienced it and it felt good. Another person who has posted on this very thread touched on it in his magnum opus, "Defining Cross Training." That article is a fantastic read and I think it would benefit someone like yourself. It is not preachy at all. It simply asks, "Are you fully addressing your needs in your practice?" I hope he puts that article back up again. A lot of people can really benefit from reading it. I did.


mickey

[mantid1]

Can someone explain how performing a traditional mantis set will make you a better fighter than performing a wushu set?

I am aware of the lack of fighting history in wushu....no need to go there.

But, does practicing a traditional set with no opponent really make you that much better at fighting?

[Redfish]

You don't see how forms - as part of a complete training program - help?

What do you study?

[mantid1]

Sure I know how forms as a part of a complete training programs can help.

That was not the question.

I was wondering how different people think practicing a traditional solo set will make you a better fighter than doing a wushu set.

just curious.

[Three Harmonies]

Mickey
I am not once again going to get into this, you can search old threads for my opinions and the reasoning behind them.
Qi is important to fighting only in the context that if you have none, you are dead. When you are dead you cannot fight very well. Other than that qi has nothing to do with fighting. I will happily admit my wrong opinion when it is proven to me. So far with all the great teachers I have met, not one has proven to me that qi has anything to do with fighting and combatives. Period. I have yet to see anything that cannot be explained scientifically regarding physiology and anatomy.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I actually will openly admit that I welcome it.
Thanks
Jake :cool:

[mickey]

Three Harmonies,

I totally agree with your last post. I never said anything to the contrary in this thread. If so, find the quote and post it up. You will not be able to find it.


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Can someone explain how performing a traditional mantis set will make you a better fighter than performing a wushu set?



Great question. I am glad you asked it.
I think it gets to the heart of the matter.

I don't have much experience in new wushu, but I don't think that is a major problem in answering this question.

In Mantis as I was taught and teach, the solo moves are very similar to how I train the applications on a partner.

So when I train the solo form, there is that imagination component. Over the years I have noticed that it helps to have that component.

For someone who does not know the apps of their forms or maybe knows them, but doesn't apply them, then there may be little difference between training new wushu forms and and old forms of whatever style.

The wushu forms have a martial application, it just depends on if you know what it is.

My shifu knew it and told us the good and bad points.

His student, Li Junhuai, was a full contact champ in Taiwan at a young age.

He qualified for the Asian olympics and was a profesioonal student in the forms division.

My shifu was selected in a National Martial Art examination as the coach of new wush nan quan.

He coached my brother to get the bronze, silver and finally Gold before retiring.

They believed that it kept the body fit, but to fight you must train fighting.

The goal of the new wushu forms is asthetics.

The old forms have a differnt goal.
-To pass on the techniques of the style.
-To train the body physically.
-A dictionary of combinations and applicaitons.

Kevin

www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

[Three Harmonies]

Mickey
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment that started with "But....." then. My bad.
Jake :cool:

[mickey]

Defining Cross Training

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=80




mickey

[mantis108]

Defining Cross Training

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=80




mickey

Hi Mickey,

A blast from the past. :D

Thank you for posting the link. I couldn't believe it's still on the cyberkwoon. I haven't visited that site for a long time. I am glad that you bring this up as I am rewriting my wooden dummy article into a book which will include a revised version of this old article as one of the chapters.

Warm regards

Robert

[mantid1]

Thanks Kevin

Great post.

[Redfish]

At the risk of agreeing with certain people again - I'd like to forward an example in favour of the Qi is not magic side.

When you first learn any new sports you have to expend a lot of energy to make the movements, which are wild and uncontrolled.

The more you practise them the more economical - or tight and clean - the moves become. Also your fitness and strength improves.

You now need to expend less energy to make the movements.

Eventualy, you have tight, clean coordinated moves. You no longer need to throw so much energy in - and hence you now have leftover energy that you can add in, if you wish. You are in cotnrol of your body and now able to use power, rather than extra strength through over exertion.

You can say the same of tennis.

Of course, some people I've seen here like to cultivate their Qi by rubbing an old tree and then go round talking about striking with no contact. I'm more worried about people who hit the gym and train every day.

[Buddy]

I studied with Mark Sifu for seven years in my youth. Jake has the right of it. Look, I have nothing but respect and admiration for mark Sifu, She calls her studio Performance Arts. That school is gone but my picture was up there somewhere.

[Three Harmonies]

Careful! You agree with me and the whole board will hate you;):rolleyes::D:cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

so like is this turning into a wushu vs traditional debate again? all those first gen guys form the shaolin temple era could fight. i went to china with one of the stars of shaolin temple, shaolin kids, and north and south. Hu Jianqang. not only was his modern stuff good, his traditional was good too.

but i agree modern stuff is nothing more than (shu) art with no (wu) martial in it.
but then again it looks like a lot of traditional systems have become that too. but then again the emphasis has changed in the past 100 years.

BSM only teachs an hour and a half or so from my house, but I never visited her. I have been told she is awesome, but thats about it. There are a couple good Kung Fu Teachers in boston i know of. her, a calvin chin, and winchow woo (sp?).

[Three Harmonies]

There is no debate. Two totally different focuses. Wushu is NOT a martial art. Period. By definition if you are not engaging in combatives then it is not martial. Wushu is a very beautiful, difficult, acrobatic dance form based off of martial arts.
I am very sure BSM is talented....... AT WUSHU!
Thank the internet for allowing any body to get on and argue non stop about things that are irrelavent. I don't see how one can argue "wush vs. traditional martial arts" when one is not even in the same category as the other!
But what do I know!?
Jake :cool:

[mantis108]

I think that it should be clear that Wushu basic is not designed to train Mantis specifically. Wushu training is ignorant of traditional value in Kung Fu let alone what mantis stands for.

Wushu people like to interpret other styles simply because they feel they can. But that interpretation is devoided of value other than that it appears to be visually more pleasing than the original.

Personally, I find that most of the time we are still treading the same ground with the traditional mantis. For at least the past 8 years or so not only are we not able to bring the message across that Mantis is combative in nature, in which case Wushu training isn't the substitute for proper traditional mantis training, but also that more and more people believe it's perfectly okay to do Wushu to "enhance" their mantis training. This to me is a disturbing trend.

Why is it so? Because in reality it is still a form dominated market for Kung Fu. It is as though most if not all thinks that we are aiming to better our Kung Fu through showmanship not combative. When's the last time someone ask how to do a drill properly, now to perfect an application, what principle is important, etc. I simply can't remember that being on here anymore. However, I see people asking who's form performance is better or who's interpertation of forms is authentic etc. Have we become that sallow?

Does this mean that the KFM mantis forum has reached it's maximum capacity or has it lost it direction altogether? Can we have inspiring and intelligent conversation like we used to? Is there no one interested in the core of real Tanglang Kung Fu anymore but we have to compare ourselves with Wushu the sport?

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Great post Robert.
I think your assesment is too narrow.... ALL of Chinese Martial Arts suffer from this virus! Look at Taiji, Xing Yi and Bagua! This is not solely in the Mantis realm.
My personal take on KFO is simple.....no one is really policing the idiots that get on here and troll. Hence you end up with this result. Other forums I am part of (you too) are very strict in who they allow to post, and the manner in which people are allowed to do so.
The reasons shared here are prime examples of why the CMA are suffering, and will continue to suffer unless people start to change their attitudes in training, teaching, and sharing knowledge. Instead of resisting the MMA/BJJ boom, we should all be learning what we can from them, as they have set the bar in many respects that the CMA are not even remotely reaching!
But again, what do I know.
Cheers
Jake :cool: