crane or stork?

[jdhowland]

Dear Comrades-at-arms.

I've decided to create a new science called "ornithophilology." ;) By combining Linnaean taxonomy, ornithology, hoplology and linguistic anthropology I hope, with the help of my esteemed colleagues of this forum, to answer the age-old question: What is meant by the term "white crane"?

Why should this be a source of confusion? Simply this: the word "he" (Mand.) or "hok" (Cant.) meaning "crane" is not particularly ambiguous. When you prefix the word for white ("pai," "baahk") the compound means "stork" or "heron." I was taught that the Fukkien white crane systems were actually "stork" gung fu. I have no problem with that. The problem is that the so-called "Tibetan" white crane actually refers to a white-colored crane and not a stork.

Chinese art further confuses the matter by frequently showing cranes (most commonly black necked cranes) flying with necks bent like herons. Cranes do bend their necks when they "dance" but never when they fly.

There are only a few white colored species of crane in the world including the American white crane or whooping crane, the black necked crane and the Siberian white crane. The two latter-mentioned species can be found in Tibet and western China where the "Tibetan" system originated. But Fukkien and "Siu Lam" stork styles have adopted the image of the crane as their emblem.

So, is Fukkien white crane really white stork?

I'd appreciate input from anyone interested, especially native Chinese speakers.

[Mr Punch]

Strangely enough, I've often wondered the same thing. I can't help with the Chinese, but my musings come from Japan, where the 'tsuru' (some kind of white crane - haven't found out which yet), famed for luck and stuff seems to be so rare that I've barely come across anyone who's seen one in the wild, whereas 'shira-sagi' (white heron) and 'goi-sagi' (grey heron - but pretty white themselves) are ubiquitous.

Of course, the reverence for the crane and the heron is neither here nor there: in Japanese native animistic religion (Shinto) all animals are part of the 'kami' (spirits/gods), and it's widely known that the reverence for the crane itself is imported, supposedly from Korea more than China.

I wonder if they have either in Okinawa where the crane-based styles were morphed into karate...?

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;835844]Strangely enough, I've often wondered the same thing. I can't help with the Chinese, but my musings come from Japan, where the 'tsuru' (some kind of white crane - haven't found out which yet), famed for luck and stuff seems to be so rare that I've barely come across anyone who's seen one in the wild, whereas 'shira-sagi' (white heron) and 'goi-sagi' (grey heron - but pretty white themselves) are ubiquitous.(QUOTE)

I believe the Japanese tsuru is the same critter as the Manchurian black necked crane.

Of course, the reverence for the crane and the heron is neither here nor there: in Japanese native animistic religion (Shinto) all animals are part of the 'kami' (spirits/gods), and it's widely known that the reverence for the crane itself is imported, supposedly from Korea more than China.

Right you are. And traditional art imitates mainland Asian traditions such as the image of the tsuru associated with pine trees and turtles for longevity, in pairs to show fidelity and flying with bent necks as if they were more familiar with storks and ibises.

I wonder if they have either in Okinawa where the crane-based styles were morphed into karate...?

I think I've heard of cranes in southern Kyushu. But the white crane gung fu in Okinawa appears to be a latecomer. A Chinese tea merchant, supposed to have been influential in "te" circles around 1900, brought "shiratsuru" to the islands. Presumably related Fukkien styles have been known in the Ryukyus for at least a couple of centuries.

Thanks for your input! I can't expect too much feedback with this one. Most people don't have a lot of interest in symbolism or etymology.
JD

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;835844]Strangely enough, I've often wondered the same thing. I can't help with the Chinese, but my musings come from Japan, where the 'tsuru' (some kind of white crane - haven't found out which yet), famed for luck and stuff seems to be so rare that I've barely come across anyone who's seen one in the wild, whereas 'shira-sagi' (white heron) and 'goi-sagi' (grey heron - but pretty white themselves) are ubiquitous.(QUOTE)

I believe the Japanese tsuru is the same critter as the Manchurian black necked crane.

Of course, the reverence for the crane and the heron is neither here nor there: in Japanese native animistic religion (Shinto) all animals are part of the 'kami' (spirits/gods), and it's widely known that the reverence for the crane itself is imported, supposedly from Korea more than China.

Right you are. And traditional art imitates mainland Asian traditions such as the image of the tsuru associated with pine trees and turtles for longevity, in pairs to show fidelity and flying with bent necks as if they were more familiar with storks and ibises.

I wonder if they have either in Okinawa where the crane-based styles were morphed into karate...?

I think I've heard of cranes in southern Kyushu. But the white crane gung fu in Okinawa appears to be a latecomer. A Chinese tea merchant, supposed to have been influential in "te" circles around 1900, brought "shiratsuru" to the islands. Presumably related Fukkien styles have been known in the Ryukyus for at least a couple of centuries.

Thanks for your input! I can't expect too much feedback with this one. Most people don't have a lot of interest in symbolism or etymology.
JD

Hi jdhowland,

I share your same interest, however I'm not too sure I fully understand your point as the interpretation of the crane in Chinese paintings with bent neck might be more symbolic then a pure imitation of nature and its behaviour.

As you rightfully pointed out, the Crane in the Chinese tradition reppresent longevity, and I was told (can't say true or not) that the system we share was named after the Crane not because of the mythological battle that allegedly originated it but rather because of the longevity symbol

Apologies for not being able to contribute with something more substential

Regards

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;835892]

...I'm not too sure I fully understand your point as the interpretation of the crane in Chinese paintings with bent neck might be more symbolic then a pure imitation of nature and its behaviour.

Actually, that is my point. The crane is more symbolic for its attributes than it is imitated for its movements. And chinese symbolic thought is free to blend species in a way that Nature cannot. That is called "art."

As you rightfully pointed out, the Crane in the Chinese tradition represent longevity, and I was told (can't say true or not) that the system we share was named after the Crane not because of the mythological battle that allegedly originated it but rather because of the longevity symbol

That's interesting. Entirely plausible since both Wong Lum Hoi and Ng Siu Jung were medical men and the crane would have been a good symbol for their health care practices.

The extended kicks and arm swings of lama style gung fu may have suggested crane-type movements to Cantonese practitioners of the art. The story of Ho-Da- To and the fight between monkey and crane could be only a few generations old.

[HOKPAIWES]

Hello,

I to enjoy this type of topic. I clealy see the physcical and symbolism uses of the animal titles, the moves look like cranes wings and beaks and for examle the crane being an Asian symbol for logevity and regalness etc.. . The article on this subject from the large Lions Roar site ( http://lionsroar.name/the_ape_and_crane_divisions.htm ) has an interesting read. One part I liked and have clearly see it evolve in my sparring progression is this section-

"Very powerful instincts and emotions collect around the imago (the image-product) of the Ape and Crane totem animals. This providesthe conditions for reaction between the Catalytic animal forms, and the fuel of instinct and emotion. The first emotion generated isinvariably an 'Ape Rage State' - wild aggression and pure rage, and this often arouses a compensatory fear reaction in the practitioner -suddenly they are aware of immense destructive potential deep within their very being. The Tantric transmission from the Root Guruensures that this rage-state is safely harnessed and utilized, and that the aspirant moves on to being able to encounter the equallypowerful mind-state (Citta) of the Crane. Here again, the initial state is one that seems 'negative' in that it arouses the capacity for great cruelty and even spitefulness in inflicting 'destruction' on opponents."


I find this statement to be pretty true. When in pressured fighting in the pyscical crane mode rather than the other one can find crulety and spite in their intentions.I wonder if the title comes from the reasons listed in the post above but as well as the attitude that the art brings to the surface in combat.

[Mr Punch]

Right you are. And traditional art imitates mainland Asian traditions such as the image of the tsuru associated with pine trees and turtles for longevity, in pairs to show fidelity and flying with bent necks as if they were more familiar with storks and ibises.Actually part of my point, which may help you unravel the mystery (though I've no idea how!) is that the Japanese seem to think they got the crane respect tradition from Korea, not from China (or a generic Asian tradition). They are usually very specific and accurate about these kinds of origins.

Of course, it would then be easy to imagine Korea got it from China, but I wonder if the tradition didn't start or wasn't at least pretty strong in Korea first...?

Rambling further of course...

[jdhowland]

Of course, it would then be easy to imagine Korea got it from China, but I wonder if the tradition didn't start or wasn't at least pretty strong in Korea first...


Much of Japanese culture came through Korea first. Hm. I like this train of thought. If the crane as totemic animal cannot be limited to Korea it is at least possible that it is a phenomenon of northern cultures in general like the eagle, wolf and raven across subarctic Eurasia and North America. The crane is a marshland bird and would more often be seen by northerners such as Koreans, Manchurians, Mongolians and Tibetans.

Thanks, Mr. Punch.

[LoneTiger108]

So, is Fukkien white crane really white stork?

I'd appreciate input from anyone interested, especially native Chinese speakers.

A difficult one to ponder, as I feel that what we have here is a 'hierachy' debate! Obviously, to those who have studied any form of Buddhism or even Chinese History, the regal white crane was linked to royalty and religion. The white stork/heron seems to be more 'common' therefore of a lower place of purpose in the religious canons.

The Fukien White Crane Temple, which I believe still exists, is and was a settling place for the White Crane and used as an observatory by earlier Buddhist Monks. It's funny that someone mentioned their 'longevity' symbolism, but this is not to be confused with age and immortalism only! FACT: A Pair of White Cranes (Male/Female) will stay with eachother for life! A truly loyal husband/wife team!

This imho is why the animal was used in early Southern Chinese Arts, as it was also meant to remind students that they only need one teacher. One way. Maybe even a way that was 'formed' by a husband and wife team? Hmmm. Sounds familiar!

Apart from other interpretaions, you should look at the way the Crane breathes during extremely long flights, and no matter how many are together in the air, their wings beat in perfect harmony. Minimum effort and all that...

[jdhowland]

A difficult one to ponder, as I feel that what we have here is a 'hierachy' debate! Obviously, to those who have studied any form of Buddhism or even Chinese History, the regal white crane was linked to royalty and religion. The white stork/heron seems to be more 'common' therefore of a lower place of purpose in the religious canons.


Apart from other interpretaions, you should look at the way the Crane breathes during extremely long flights, and no matter how many are together in the air, their wings beat in perfect harmony. Minimum effort and all that...

I agree. In Egypt as well as Asian traditions the crane was a messenger to the gods. The only bird that flies higher is a wild goose. A five foot tall bird with a seven to eight foot wing span that can literally disappear into the heavens is an awesome image. The crane was on the badge of rank for one of the Chinese civil service degrees.

We have a lot of cranes around here. I've never seen them beat their wings in unison, but "in harmony," sure...two beats to the second, faster on the upflip than the downstroke.

Ten Tigers brought up a good point that (to paraphrase) the prefix for white may indicate a special sacred or liminal condition. Consider the white clothing used in Chinese funeral rites and Shinto ceremony.

So it may be that what I was told (by a white CRANE teacher) about Siu Lam and Fukkien styles being "stork" systems was a value judgement, a "put down."

Does anyone know whether the styles known as "feeding crane," "shaking crane," etc., were previously known as simply "hok" styles as their names suggest? Or did they originate from an original "white crane=stork" system?

[diego]

A difficult one to ponder, as I feel that what we have here is a 'hierachy' debate! Obviously, to those who have studied any form of Buddhism or even Chinese History, the regal white crane was linked to royalty and religion. The white stork/heron seems to be more 'common' therefore of a lower place of purpose in the religious canons.

The Fukien White Crane Temple, which I believe still exists, is and was a settling place for the White Crane and used as an observatory by earlier Buddhist Monks. It's funny that someone mentioned their 'longevity' symbolism, but this is not to be confused with age and immortalism only! FACT: A Pair of White Cranes (Male/Female) will stay with eachother for life! A truly loyal husband/wife team!

This imho is why the animal was used in early Southern Chinese Arts, as it was also meant to remind students that they only need one teacher. One way. Maybe even a way that was 'formed' by a husband and wife team? Hmmm. Sounds familiar!

Apart from other interpretaions, you should look at the way the Crane breathes during extremely long flights, and no matter how many are together in the air, their wings beat in perfect harmony. Minimum effort and all that...

:) Um how do we check out a crane's breathing for really long flights...da mo had sattellite cameras?:)

[jdhowland]

Since there have recently been postings regarding Fukien White Crane i thought i might ressurect this old thread in order to get a few more voices to join in Then i will let it die.

So how about it? Any opinions on whether the original Fukien WC community intended to have the stork as their totem, rather than the crane?

[TenTigers]

Crane.
Stork sounds too dippy.
I keep envisioning the Vlassic Pickle Stork.

[jdhowland]

Right. Or the Warner Bros. baby-carrying cartoon stork.

The speculations about FWC being related somehow to northern antecedents make me think that the southern cranes were always cranes all along whether specifically "white" or not, if for no other reason than that i don't find storks much in Chinese art.

jd

[mantis108]

1) Crane and stork has very different medicinal value.

2) There is an account that the white crane (Bai He) in the Fujian White Crane refers to a legendary leader of rebellion during the late Ming and early Qing dynasty. His name was Chen Haonan and he has an alias of Bai He Dao Ren in which Dao Ren is a term referring to a venerable person not necessarily a Daoist. So Chen Haonan is also known as the venerabel white crane.

3) Crane is one of the tree sacred animals to the Daoists. Crane symbolizes Shen (spirit); while, turtle symbolizes Qi (vital energy) and deer symbolizes Jing (essence). When combining the deer and crane together not only do you get a symbolism of Jing Shen (well being or health) but also their pronunciation of deer (Lu) and crane (He) together forms a pun for Liuhe (six hormonies) or the 3 dimensional world.

So crane can not be confused with stork.

Mantis108

[jdhowland]

There is an account that the white crane (Bai He) in the Fujian White Crane refers to a legendary leader of rebellion during the late Ming and early Qing dynasty. His name was Chen Haonan and he has an alias of Bai He Dao Ren in which Dao Ren is a term referring to a venerable person not necessarily a Daoist. So Chen Haonan is also known as the venerabel white crane.


Thanks, Mantis108. Your reply is erudite and informative as always. This leads to another possibility: that the FWC wasn't named for a bird at all. Are there any tales or novels written about Chen Haonan?

jd

[mantis108]

Hi jdhowland

You are most welcome. There is at least one modern era martial novel that I know of have Chen Jinnan (it should be Jin instead of Hou. Sorry I miss quoted the name). Some believe that he's the same person as Chen Yonghua, a native of Quanzhou of Fujian, who was instrumental in establishing Ming loyalists' base in Taiwan. He is believed to have used the alias Chen Jinnan and Bai He Dao Ren as the head of the Tiandihui (Heaven and Earth society) which is a spin off group from the Hong Men.

Warm regards

Mantis108