for the love of god wtf is wrong with ppl?

[BruceSteveRoy]

this makes me sick to my stomach. these ppl are so awful.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b46/hanagumori/heath.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

this makes me sick to my stomach. these ppl are so awful.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b46/hanagumori/heath.jpg

I thought christians were all about love....I know God is, that's why he created this:

[diego]

this makes me sick to my stomach. these ppl are so awful.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b46/hanagumori/heath.jpg

ALLAH IS MIGHTY....****ing terrorists:D

[BruceSteveRoy]

i worry about your photos for some reason. i never know if they are SFW and i don't think you would warn me if they weren't. i'll have to look at them at home.

[lkfmdc]

this makes me sick to my stomach. these ppl are so awful.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b46/hanagumori/heath.jpg

as much as I've seen some absolutely strange things in the name of religion, I'd still like a verification that this isn't just some photoshop, the language is just a little "off" for an official church release, even from the nutjob wing of the religion.

That being said, "Lev" also tells us that if we eat shrimp we will also burn in hell.... you can't take part of the bible as the "word of G'd" and not all of it can you? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

i worry about your photos for some reason. i never know if they are SFW and i don't think you would warn me if they weren't. i'll have to look at them at home.

Of course I would warn you, none of them are nude pics.
They above is a cleavage shot with a little hint of panties.
:D

[the Preacher]

Gal. 5 (http://jesusthecomforter.com/)


" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"


:D


AKT (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0183790/)

A Knights Tale (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0183790/trailers-screenplay-E15134-310)

[BruceSteveRoy]

as much as I've seen some absolutely strange things in the name of religion, I'd still like a verification that this isn't just some photoshop, the language is just a little "off" for an official church release, even from the nutjob wing of the religion.

That being said, "Lev" also tells us that if we eat shrimp we will also burn in hell.... you can't take part of the bible as the "word of G'd" and not all of it can you? :rolleyes:

i think this is the church that is often on news shows for protesting at funerals of aids victims, h0m0sexuals, and anyone they percieve to have anything to do with gayity. they are constantly speaking out against the gay agenda or whatever. there are a lot of pictures of the old man that runs the church picketing and dressing his kids up in clothes that say "god hates f@gs". these ppl are complete nut jobs.

but what i find the most troubling is that i havent yet seen any other church stand up and say that these guys are wrong for their actions. while everyone is entitled to their beliefs some actions are just reprehensible. i mean heath ledger was an actor playing the role of a gay person in "brokeback mountain" so in their minds he was gay. i have never heard any report that he was a H0m0sexual. unless you count "10 things i hate about you" as an admission to H0m0sexuality.

[jow yeroc]

Yeah that "church" disgusts me. Foolin' with and berating folks in mourning and
dishonoring the dead would prolly amuse the devil before a righteous "God"
would see favor in it.
Off with their friggin heads!!
And if i were a family member i would absolutely have on some shetkickers and
after i paid respects i would promptly go outside and without a single utterance
begin whirlwind sow choys and dropkicks on any douche in reach.
These psuedo religious focks wanna play games, I can play too. Take me to
jail, i'll eat a charge to hurt someone so disrespectful.
I'm all in favor of religious freedoms which may include your own particular
level of zealotry, but once the line is crossed--punishment due!!

[lkfmdc]

I heard this was once this guy, a rabbi actually, who healed people no matter what, even on sabbath days, and he preached love thy neighbor and acceptance, I wonder whatever happened to that guy?

[BruceSteveRoy]

ppl got sick of his do-gooder nonsense and nailed him to a bit of wood.

apparently he was like that smart kid in math class that everyone hates for throwing the curve. he was too good at his job and was making them look bad. or something.

[lkfmdc]

Well, the worst part was, after they nailed him, a guy who had never met him came along and used his name to sell his own theories, despite the original guy's OWN BROTHER saying that wasn't the way. But then some other guys put a "hit" on his brother and that's all she wrote ;)

[cjurakpt]

and that's all she wrote ;)
no, actually "she" (meaning the original guys close disciple / wife) supposedly wrote a fair amount about him, but unfortunately her version didn't make the final cut into the "definitive" biography compiled a few hundred years later by a bunch of guys who got together and decided that the most authentic versions of the original guy's life and practice were to be found in the accounts written by four other guys, the earliest one no less than ~ 60 years after the original guy's death, including one version that ends with a bit that reads like a really bad acid trip...

[jow yeroc]

"...ends like a really bad acid trip", or a really really good one.:eek:

[diego]

as much as I've seen some absolutely strange things in the name of religion, I'd still like a verification that this isn't just some photoshop, the language is just a little "off" for an official church release, even from the nutjob wing of the religion.

That being said, "Lev" also tells us that if we eat shrimp we will also burn in hell.... you can't take part of the bible as the "word of G'd" and not all of it can you? :rolleyes:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5nTw0WbjqRU

lmao, 100 ****s in the church and 80 of them are the ****s fam:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, the worst part was, after they nailed him, a guy who had never met him came along and used his name to sell his own theories, despite the original guy's OWN BROTHER saying that wasn't the way. But then some other guys put a "hit" on his brother and that's all she wrote ;)

Not to take this out of the humour it is in, but what is that about?
Link please?

[MasterKiller]

Not to take this out of the humour it is in, but what is that about?
Link please?
Jesus f@cking Christ....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jesus f@cking Christ....

That is too easy to make a play on so I will do this instead:

[MasterKiller]

That is too easy to make a play on so I will do this instead:

No, really. Jesus f@cking Christ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, really. Jesus f@cking Christ.

LOL, I know who its about, I wanted to know WHAT David was referring to.

[lkfmdc]

I'm a trained historian who also happens to be half jewish/half catholic... and I've developed a personal interest in the history of religion and how religions "evolve" ("devolve") generations after they are established.

If you read any of the works of the "historical Jesus project" and especially anything on James (Jesus' brother and first leader of the Church in Israel) how a religion started by a Jew, practiced by Jews, with a distinctly Jewish context and distinctly Jewish message gave birth to one of the most anti-semitic movements in the world? The answer is Paul, not so much an anti-semite really, but a man who we now clearly can see took the religion in a very different dirrection, DESPITE the objections of James and the original disciples (and remember that Paul NEVER MET JESUS, much less learned his direct teachings).

That's not even touching what Chris was talking about, ie the complete revision of Mary's role in the original movement and her subsequent "downgrades" by a series of misogynistic Church leaders who exhibited some strange tendencies....

Now, back to something funny

[MasterKiller]

Now, back to something funny
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kPCHN0ZQl2Y

[lkfmdc]

this one is good

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8oUoLFVXaTU&feature=related

[jow yeroc]

:D:D "Let he who is without sin, kick the first ass!!" i love it, thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm a trained historian who also happens to be half jewish/half catholic... and I've developed a personal interest in the history of religion and how religions "evolve" ("devolve") generations after they are established.

If you read any of the works of the "historical Jesus project" and especially anything on James (Jesus' brother and first leader of the Church in Israel) how a religion started by a Jew, practiced by Jews, with a distinctly Jewish context and distinctly Jewish message gave birth to one of the most anti-semitic movements in the world? The answer is Paul, not so much an anti-semite really, but a man who we now clearly can see took the religion in a very different dirrection, DESPITE the objections of James and the original disciples (and remember that Paul NEVER MET JESUS, much less learned his direct teachings).

That's not even touching what Chris was talking about, ie the complete revision of Mary's role in the original movement and her subsequent "downgrades" by a series of misogynistic Church leaders who exhibited some strange tendencies....

Now, back to something funny

I knew about the Paul thing, but I will look into the "historical jesus project".

[lkfmdc]

"The Brother of Jesus" by Jeffrey j Butz is a good place to start IMHO

[sanjuro_ronin]

"The Brother of Jesus" by Jeffrey j Butz is a good place to start IMHO

Grazie.
I will look it up.

[jow yeroc]

You guys are really pressing your luck. Any minute now a ultra right wing
fundamentalist evangelical troll is gonna turn this into a futile argument on
"faith" and religion. When that happens i'm outta this thread. You just can't
debate with "religious" folk who refuse to do any kind of research that may be
contrary to what they think is the end all be all. Even when given historical
FACTS they will argue tooth and nail. Nobody wins.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys are really pressing your luck. Any minute now a ultra right wing
fundamentalist evangelical troll is gonna turn this into a futile argument on
"faith" and religion. When that happens i'm outta this thread. You just can't
debate with "religious" folk who refuse to do any kind of research that may be
contrary to what they think is the end all be all. Even when given historical
FACTS they will argue tooth and nail. Nobody wins.

Yeah, what's with those closed minded, I am right you are wrong and mine is the only truth, kind of people ? :rolleyes:

[Drake]

god is not real.

there, I started the fire.

[the Preacher]

Like this!
The Righteous (http://jesusthecomforter.com/Righteous.htm)


And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:

but ye know him;
for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4835552)

[BruceSteveRoy]

god is not real.

there, I started the fire.

yes i am

more words so my post will post

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes i am

more words so my post will post

My Post can post too, and can do a lot of other stuff too and I can use it to hang clothes to dry even.
I like my post and so do quite a few women I know...:D

[lkfmdc]

Ignorance (which has nothing to do with being stupid btw) is the constant obstacle to the advancement of mankind. It is no coincidence that extremism in all forms relies upon those who are undereducated and who have limited access to critical analysis.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ignorance (which has nothing to do with being stupid btw) is the constant obstacle to the advancement of mankind. It is no coincidence that extremism in all forms relies upon those who are undereducated and who have limited access to critical analysis.

Never understood why people think there is only own way to do something...
Never understood why some people take the view of others as "gospel" and don't try to find out the "truth" for themselves...

[BruceSteveRoy]

bc its a shortcut to thinking. makes life easier just to take someones word on something.

[Drake]

We have planted the seeds to beat the Bush Fam. thread.

[the Preacher]

“The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal which, with our weak powers, we can reach only very inadequately, but which gives a sure foundation to our aspirations and valuations.”

Albert Einstein (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm)

[sanjuro_ronin]

“The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal which, with our weak powers, we can reach only very inadequately, but which gives a sure foundation to our aspirations and valuations.”

Albert Einstein (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm)

Well, **** me in the mouth !

[Becca]

Even when given historical
FACTS they will argue tooth and nail. Nobody wins.
Dunno. I've always found it amusing to listen to that kind of debate. Kind of like listening to a 3-year-old explain why they should have a toy that costs alot.:D

[Drake]

“The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal which, with our weak powers, we can reach only very inadequately, but which gives a sure foundation to our aspirations and valuations.”

Albert Einstein (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm)


And all this time I thought Einstein was Hindu...

[SouthernTiger]

I'm a trained historian who also happens to be half jewish/half catholic... and I've developed a personal interest in the history of religion and how religions "evolve" ("devolve") generations after they are established.

If you read any of the works of the "historical Jesus project" and especially anything on James (Jesus' brother and first leader of the Church in Israel) how a religion started by a Jew, practiced by Jews, with a distinctly Jewish context and distinctly Jewish message gave birth to one of the most anti-semitic movements in the world? The answer is Paul, not so much an anti-semite really, but a man who we now clearly can see took the religion in a very different dirrection, DESPITE the objections of James and the original disciples (and remember that Paul NEVER MET JESUS, much less learned his direct teachings).

That's not even touching what Chris was talking about, ie the complete revision of Mary's role in the original movement and her subsequent "downgrades" by a series of misogynistic Church leaders who exhibited some strange tendencies....

Now, back to something funny

Interesting that you felt the need to pre-empt your personal opinionof the "facts" with the "trained historian" statement. Was this to add more credibility to what you say in case people with differing opinions disagree with you?? -seems likely

The historical jesus project was hardly the bottom line in the debate of the "historical jesus". Just as many researchers disagree with your premise.

Regardless, you seem to have arrived at a personal conclusion based on what you believe. Better to say such statements as opinions instead of pretending to represent the facts and THE truth.

Ultimately, everyone chooses what they want to believe. Don't spread your propaganda as a facade for truth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting that you felt the need to pre-empt your personal opinionof the "facts" with the "trained historian" statement. Was this to add more credibility to what you say in case people with differing opinions disagree with you?? -seems likely

The historical jesus project was hardly the bottom line in the debate of the "historical jesus". Just as many researchers disagree with your premise.

Regardless, you seem to have arrived at a personal conclusion based on what you believe. Better to say such statements as opinions instead of pretending to represent the facts and THE truth.

Ultimately, everyone chooses what they want to believe. Don't spread your propaganda as a facade for truth.

I, for one, took what Dave said as an opinion and nothing more, as I do with anyone's religious views/statements.
To me, any religion must be scrutinized and debated and viewed with a critical mind and in good faith.

[diego]

Never understood why people think there is only own way to do something...
Never understood why some people take the view of others as "gospel" and don't try to find out the "truth" for themselves...

rascism and the class system creates closedminded individuals...i got black cousins and in elementary i had friends of every race...i'm white

go to hardev's house and we having hindu dinner, go to tom's house and they giving me red envelopes for chinese new year..go to hasan's...you get the picture.

even tho i was closedminded as an ignorant whiteboy running with the bugged out capilano natives...when i grew up i had culture cuz i wasn't rascist and was to aggressive to care about a class system..you either made me not bored growing up or I victemized you in some sort or another...i had no respect but i wasn't rascist and a bigot just ignorant...got some self knowledge which led to respect when i stopped being a punk kid and caught the idea to study every culture.

i know many closed minded white kids born in the same year as me...they didn't have black cousins and another outlook to make them not get beat up by the natives...:)

people can talk all they want but until rascism and the class system disappears we always gonna have poverty and gang violence.

it sucks, cuz basically evolution is the only thing gonna change it...crackas have to die

[BruceSteveRoy]

:confused:

tangential?

[sanjuro_ronin]

:confused:

tangential?

Tangerine flavoured genitals

[lkfmdc]

Interesting that you felt the need to pre-empt your personal opinionof the "facts" with the "trained historian" statement. Was this to add more credibility to what you say in case people with differing opinions disagree with you?? -seems likely

The historical jesus project was hardly the bottom line in the debate of the "historical jesus". Just as many researchers disagree with your premise.

Regardless, you seem to have arrived at a personal conclusion based on what you believe. Better to say such statements as opinions instead of pretending to represent the facts and THE truth.

Ultimately, everyone chooses what they want to believe. Don't spread your propaganda as a facade for truth.

Yes, I am a trained historian. I taught history at the college level. That means I was trained to evaluate both sources and arguments of a historical nature.

"Propaganda"? Really? Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish? Or that his brother James didn't lead the first Church? Since Paul is the earliest written record we have of the Church, you'd have to explain away Paul's own accounts of James before you could argue otherwise.

Are you saying Jesus message wasn't Jewish, in a Jewish context? He was talking about the temple, G'd, the prophecies of all nations coming under it, etc... His church claims he was the messiah, which was a Jewish concept. Outside of Judaism it has no other meaning.

Are you arguing that Paul was a direct disciple? He never said he was. His own words are testement to the fact he was converted after the crucifixtion. Furthremore, his own words testify to his disagreemetns with James and the Israel Church. Which, by the way, all centerd on interpretation of JEWISH law

Sort of sounds like facts to me? Why not tell us what you think and WHY you think that, then rather than getting your underwear in a knot we could discuss it

[the Preacher]

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And declared to be the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Paul, His story (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5015363)


And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the *****s.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Saul/Paul (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4911806)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And declared to be the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Paul, His story (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5015363)

Paul has a great name, matter of fact, everyone named Paul is Uber_cool !!
:D

[the Preacher]

Paul has a great name, matter of fact, everyone named Paul is Uber_cool !!
:D

:D....



.

[SouthernTiger]

Yes, I am a trained historian. I taught history at the college level. That means I was trained to evaluate both sources and arguments of a historical nature.

"Propaganda"? Really? Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish? Or that his brother James didn't lead the first Church? Since Paul is the earliest written record we have of the Church, you'd have to explain away Paul's own accounts of James before you could argue otherwise.

Are you saying Jesus message wasn't Jewish, in a Jewish context? He was talking about the temple, G'd, the prophecies of all nations coming under it, etc... His church claims he was the messiah, which was a Jewish concept. Outside of Judaism it has no other meaning.

Are you arguing that Paul was a direct disciple? He never said he was. His own words are testement to the fact he was converted after the crucifixtion. Furthremore, his own words testify to his disagreemetns with James and the Israel Church. Which, by the way, all centerd on interpretation of JEWISH law

Sort of sounds like facts to me? Why not tell us what you think and WHY you think that, then rather than getting your underwear in a knot we could discuss it

Of course,

You said, "how a religion started by a Jew, practiced by Jews, with a distinctly Jewish context and distinctly Jewish message gave birth to one of the most anti-semitic movements in the world?"
First off, excellent intermingling of factual and normative statements.
Was Jesus Jewish? Yes.
Were his first followers Jewish? Mostly.
Was the message Jewish? Yes and No.
My contention is this: Jesus' message was first to the jew, then to the gentile. Jewish prophets foretold this. But then you launch into a wild accusation of "one of the most anti-semitic movements of the world" It is obvious that you have an extreme bias here so why dont you mention that instead? Gross generalizations are reminiscent of propaganda, hence my labeling so...

And what of Mary's role in the early church? How is that even important to the central message of Jesus?? Ironically, those "series of misogynistic Church leaders who exhibited some strange tendencies" are part of your heritage as a self proclaimed "half jewish/half catholic"....whatever that means.

I could go on, but Im tired of typing.

-Blake

[lkfmdc]

part of your heritage as a self proclaimed "half jewish/half catholic"....whatever that means.



My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it :rolleyes:





you launch into a wild accusation of "one of the most anti-semitic movements of the world"



How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation, which mis-characterized historical fact to lay blame upon an entire population, which instigated, supported and rationalized inquisitions, pograms and holocausts? Are you denying the "blood libel" that was a focus of church doctrine for centuries?

The Catholic church has some very dirty and bloody hands, which even they acknowldge, ever heard of Vatican 2? Projects such as the historical Jesus mvt and MANY OTHERS are driven precisly by this realization that somewhere along the road, the message got "off track"....

Similarly, are you going to deny the misogynistic tendencies of past Church leaders? Or their other major "issues"?

According to Paul, most if not ALL of the apostles were married or had a female companion. For a significant period of Church history priests could and did marry. The justifications for thier attitudes on this subject are shaky at best, ludicrous to many.

The obsession with virginity? Jerome later tried to insist that Joseph was a virgin as well! Thus, the ridiculous attempts to explain away Jesus brothers and sisters who are so clearly discussed and named in the gospels.....

Do you really think Joseph and Mary remained virgins their entire life? Who do you think James and the other people whom Paul and gospels name as Jesus' brothers and sisters were?

[Anthony]

"Ignorance (which has nothing to do with being stupid btw) is the constant obstacle to the advancement of mankind. " -D.Ross

Really?

I tend to think that humans know da.mn well what the problems of this world are and how to solve them. I think lack of morality is the true obstacle. Humans are intelligent enough to achieve great things (and we have) but now we should get our overall morality to the same level as our knowledge. I think that would truly make the world better and advance us (I mean we've already been to the fri.gging moon!) But, being good isn't profitable. And collecting knowledge fuels one's ego....I'm smarter than you type of thing. I know this "fact" I know that one, look how cool I can sound at a party, etc.

Case in point, this discussion. Anyone out there who's trying to be a good person could care less about historical "facts" that always seem to be debatable. The debate will go on and on and get where? The same place it always does. Six pages of debate and of no answers and everyone's tired.

I don't think Jesus had brothers and sisters....and so what? It's a subject of debate and will continue to be. And if it's true then so what? I don't care if he was a member of the friggin' Brady Bunch. Doesn't get me into heaven. It's about the message itself and my own actions.

When this thread is over I'll see you all next Easter when it surfaces again.

[Water Dragon]

If you want to find the 'facts' on this issue, look into the Council of Nycia in 325. Here's just a real quick overview of what happened. After Christ's death, the disciples went out and preached the Word. That is something that everyone pretty much agrees on. I'm not sure what happened during the first 300 years, but by the time Nycea came around, there were various 'versions' of Christianity that preached some very different things. Some groups claimed Christ as Divine, some as human, some claimed he was born as a man but the Christ entered into him at the beginning of the Ministry and left during the middle of the crucifixtion which is why Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, we have you left me behind?". The Paulines believed Christ was both man and God at the same time, which is the belief that survived Nycea.

I think that Coach Ross has a things for the James versions. He IS a trained Historian, I'm sure he knows the story I'm telliong better than I do. He's telling the truth here, but he's not telling the whole truth. Here's an interesting aside; Some early Christians believed that Christ had another brother, a TWIN brother in fact.

Here's another interesting fact. The followers of Thomas believed in a spiritual resurrection, while the followers of Paul believed in a physical as well as spiritual resurrection. Many believed the story of the Doubting Thomas was in fact a political slam by the Paulines.

Oh, back to the story. Anyway, the followers of Paul were the dominant political sect in Rom during the 300's. In the end, they used their power and their numbers to ensure that THEIR beliefs regarding Christianity were to survive and everything else was declared Heresy. The result of Nycia is what became the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. From the Catholic Church sprung the Protestant religions, until we have the face of Christianity today. All we have ever seen is the result of Pauline doctrine.

[lkfmdc]

There are a lot of traditions and variations, etc

The key, if you want to be taken seriously, is to apply the same standards all historical research is subjected to to the sources. IE a lot of the variants can not be dated back close enough to Jesus' actual time on earth.

This is why Paul's writings are so important, and of course the 4 gospels. Paul was as close as we can get. The 4 gospels are within 60 years or so, and some thin they are all based on an older source (s) closer than that

To what end would Paul create brothers and sisters? James is mentioned as a brother of Jesus by Paul in Epistle to the Galatians 1:19.

The gospels name even more brothers and sisters! James as well as Jude, Simon and Joses are mentioned in Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3, and siblings are referred to in Acts 12:17

Then of course there is an independent historical source. According to a passage in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"

All these sources pre-date Nycia... this leaves obvious questsions

[the Preacher]

My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it :rolleyes:


how can you be half and half :confused:



then could you explain this quote for me?
Rom 11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5051792)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.





with all that education......... do you actually believe in anything?
......... in any "one" thing.




Rev 3-16 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5387613)
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a lot of traditions and variations, etc

The key, if you want to be taken seriously, is to apply the same standards all historical research is subjected to to the sources. IE a lot of the variants can not be dated back close enough to Jesus' actual time on earth.

This is why Paul's writings are so important, and of course the 4 gospels. Paul was as close as we can get. The 4 gospels are within 60 years or so, and some thin they are all based on an older source (s) closer than that

To what end would Paul create brothers and sisters? James is mentioned as a brother of Jesus by Paul in Epistle to the Galatians 1:19.

The gospels name even more brothers and sisters! James as well as Jude, Simon and Joses are mentioned in Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3, and siblings are referred to in Acts 12:17

Then of course there is an independent historical source. According to a passage in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"

All these sources pre-date Nycia... this leaves obvious questsions

Some say that brother could have been use din the hebrew context of "cousin".
I don't think that is the case, but it could be argued so.
Personally I would like to think that Mary and Joe got jiggy with it and had a bunch of kids, I mean, why wouldn't they?
As for the diferent traditions, such is the "curse" of interpretation.
Look at infant baptisim, some say it stared with Paul ( and whole households were baptized), some say it was the "equivelent" of the jewish cirumsission, while others are adamant that only adults should be baptized.

Personally I like variety, spice of life and all that, and in my "clan" we have Jews, RC, JW, Muslims, Protestant and Me, the "reform-christian-protestant-islamic-jew with agnostic tendencies".

:D

[SouthernTiger]

My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it :rolleyes:




How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation, which mis-characterized historical fact to lay blame upon an entire population, which instigated, supported and rationalized inquisitions, pograms and holocausts? Are you denying the "blood libel" that was a focus of church doctrine for centuries?

The Catholic church has some very dirty and bloody hands, which even they acknowldge, ever heard of Vatican 2? Projects such as the historical Jesus mvt and MANY OTHERS are driven precisly by this realization that somewhere along the road, the message got "off track"....

Similarly, are you going to deny the misogynistic tendencies of past Church leaders? Or their other major "issues"?

According to Paul, most if not ALL of the apostles were married or had a female companion. For a significant period of Church history priests could and did marry. The justifications for thier attitudes on this subject are shaky at best, ludicrous to many.

The obsession with virginity? Jerome later tried to insist that Joseph was a virgin as well! Thus, the ridiculous attempts to explain away Jesus brothers and sisters who are so clearly discussed and named in the gospels.....

Do you really think Joseph and Mary remained virgins their entire life? Who do you think James and the other people whom Paul and gospels name as Jesus' brothers and sisters were?

Actually Mr Ross, I am impressed with your retort. You do seem well researched on this subject, and are actually posting interesting points. However, My main contention is in how you in passing represented your opinions ( on the evil on the catholic church?) as fact in a grossly over-generalized manner.

"How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation"

-Im sorry are you talking about Islam??? This is NOT a part of Christianity. It MAY have been a part of Catholicism in the past. However, DONT equate catholicism with Christianity. This is akin to mistaking the signpost for That which is signposted (OR as Bruce Lee^TM so eloquently said mistaking the pointing finger with the heavenly glory of the moon...)

"My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic"

-This is funny but I am afraid you are confused. If your father was of Jewish heritage and your mother catholic (which is NOT heritage, but an organized religion) thats makes you Jewish not half/half. Or are you saying you are a Messianic Jew (which are Jewish descendants beleiving Jesus is the Messiah)

Sooo, let me clarify my position. I am discussing and debating (?) with you from a Christian viewpoint, NOT a Catholic viewpoint.

Take Care

-Blake

[SouthernTiger]

how can you be half and half :confused:



then could you explain this quote for me?
Rom 11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5051792)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.





with all that education......... do you actually believe in anything?
......... in any "one" thing.




Rev 3-16 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5387613)
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Excellent point preacher,

It is said, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up"

Too much knowledge is only intellectual masturb*tion.

So, Mr Ross, are you a believer or an intellectual masturb*ter??

[lkfmdc]

My main contention is in how you in passing represented your opinions ( on the evil on the catholic church?) as fact in a grossly over-generalized manner.

-Im sorry are you talking about Islam??? This is NOT a part of Christianity. It MAY have been a part of Catholicism in the past. However, DONT equate catholicism with Christianity.



The original discussion was how the message of Jesus has gotten "off track". As unpopular as this discussion is among protestants of all variants, all protestants trace their faith in a straight line THROUGH the Catholic church back to Jesus.

IE, regardless of the protestant variant (and of course there are many), they are all "filtered" if you will through 1000 years of Catholic Church history, theology, development and controversy.

Furthermore, the "sins" (if you'll pardon the pun) of the Catholic Church are also very present in protestant lines. Martin Luther was an infamous anti-semite. ETC




-This is funny but I am afraid you are confused. If your father was of Jewish heritage and your mother catholic (which is NOT heritage, but an organized religion) thats makes you Jewish not half/half. Or are you saying you are a Messianic Jew (which are Jewish descendants beleiving Jesus is the Messiah)



Unfortunately, you are the confused one :D Or just not up on the history of Rabbinic law.

Through much of the first century CE, Jews understood that the father's religion was the deciding factor. However, about half way through the first century CE (actually, some time after the burning of the temple in 70) Rabbinic law decided the Mother was the determining factor. The relevant text is in the Mishinah, which is Rabbinic law, not actually in the 5 books, which of course begs the question of saying is it truly correct? Since it is not spelled out in the actual old testement, it is a matter of interpretation.

As for "Jewish Christians", ALL of Jesus' followers before Paul were "Jewish Christians" and many Jewish sects of Christians continued to exist well into the Third Century CE. Only the "unification" of the Catholic Church (from which all protestant lines thus descended) after Nycia resulted in their beliefs being labelled "heresy". Another one of the not so gentle moments in CHRISITIAN history

Finally, even if you want to discuss this as a Christian as opposed to a Catholic (completely understandable), you'd still have a good discussion on how the Protestant message(s) have deviated in many respects from the original Jewish context that Jesus preached within

[Lucas]

lol
these are not the words you are looking for.

[BruceSteveRoy]

lol
these are not the words you are looking for.

lucas you are my hero for the hidden comment. i bow to your mastery of postfu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread needs some discipline !

[the Preacher]

That being said, "Lev" also tells us that if we eat shrimp we will also burn in hell.... you can't take part of the bible as the "word of G'd" and not all of it can you? :rolleyes:


lev 11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=451105)

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

just a diet plan



it seems teachers like you are the ones who distort the truth!


and what is it that you believe in?





...............
Are you arguing that Paul was a direct disciple? He never said he was. His own words are testement to the fact he was converted after the crucifixtion.




Paul was converted by a blinding light on the road to Damascus,?




:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

lev 11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=451105)

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

just a diet plan



it seems teachers like you are the ones who distort the truth!


and what is it that you believe in?









Paul was converted by a blinding light on the road to Damascus,?




:D

Most people get run over by blinding lights on the road.

[BruceSteveRoy]

lmao. too true.

but here is a real question? how did this topic get so off track? it was about the phelps guy's crazy shenanigans and protesting at heath ledger's funeral. wasn't it? sometimes when i start a thread and it turns into something like this i feel a bit like dr. frankenstein.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lmao. too true.

but here is a real question? how did this topic get so off track? it was about the phelps guy's crazy shenanigans and protesting at heath ledger's funeral. wasn't it? sometimes when i start a thread and it turns into something like this i feel a bit like dr. frankenstein.

It was a christian organization, in this case a church, doing/saying something very unchristian like.

[the Preacher]

lucas you are my hero for the hidden comment. i bow to your mastery of postfu!

I:DI . I:DI

[lkfmdc]

a lot of deer apparently get converted this way as well

[Lucas]

lucas you are my hero for the hidden comment. i bow to your mastery of postfu!

You threaten my PostFu SECRETS!?!?!?!