What do you think of 8 Step Preying Mantis?

[Syre]

I started studying 8 Step Preying Mantis a couple of months ago.

The classes are mainly taught by 3 very senior students (who are not yet Sifu level), and the Sifu shows up about 1/2 the time.

Everyone's really friendly and relaxed. They seem to have lots of knowledge. They charge only by the lesson ($10), and give lessons twice a week.

But I've read some articles about "finding a good Kung Fu School", etc. and 8 Step Preying Mantis has a couple of the "warning signs":

- they have different sash levels (yellow sash, etc.)
- the head Sifu is known as the "Grand Master"

Any considered opinions about 8 Step Preying Mantis out there (and please, not people who heard a rumor or something!).

Thanks!

[Water Dragon]

Give it a shot, if it's the real deal, you will find out. People outside your school/organization will recognize the skill.

If you are not getting the real deal, you will find out. Your stuff just won't stack up against the competition. If this is the case, right now you are "paying your dues"

If you train hard and keep an eye out for what other people are doing, you'll be OK

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Syre]

I don't think "you will know" is such a foregone conclusion.

I don't have any friends who practice other martial arts, and I don't spar with people from here and there, so I am not likely to find out on my own in any short order.

Any other suggestions? :)

[MaFuYee]

i find 12 step programs to be more effective.

Why would you say that I am insane? I wouldn't say that I've lost my mind simply because I've heard the voices and seen the godless things moving in the woods. If anything, I think more clearly now than ever before. - Ash

[Water Dragon]

I didn't find out for about 5 years. It may not happen right away. That's why I said you may be paying your dues now.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Nutt'nhunny]

I did 8 step for a while and a buddy of mine still does it. Who is your Sifu by the way?

Its my understanding that the sashes are very recent and made to copy the structure of karate.

8 step is the only kung fu system to win in the octagon and in other NHB events. Thats something to think about. My experiences there were good. both the school I went to and the school my buddy goes to were very profesional and structured, which is something you don't normally get in kung fu.

The only downside is that there is a "public" program or watered down kung fu, "for your own pace" and then the indoor program where you really learn kung fu and actually learn how to fight. Of course the real stuff costs more and takes a big commitment. I got laid off and I'm looking for a new job in an area with either a 8step teacher or a bagua/hsing I teacher. If I find an 8step teacher, I'll do the indoor program. But it seems pretty hardcore, I saw some of the indoor students practicing and it looked painfull. Maybe I should stick with the internals for now.

[Syre]

This is the kind of stuff I need to know.

What do you mean by an "indoor" program, etc. Are you saying that once you get past a certain level, suddenly it costs a lot to learn the "real" stuff, or what?

Please tell me more.

Thanks.

[EARTH DRAGON]

where are you? the reason I ask this is becuase I am a sifu of 8 step and we have a federation that requires schools to be part of it to ensure that unqualified people do not open schools and teach their version of 8 step and give it a bad name.
If the grandmaster is not chinese than you are not paying for real 8 step we have no non chinese masters much less grand masters. check the lineage make sure it matches ours on our website. www.kungfuusa.net (http://www.kungfuusa.net)
the sash program is legit, it allows people to learn at diffrent levels this is the way the program is structured. please get back to me and let me know the name of the school city or sifu and I will set you straight, PS confidentially of coarse.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

so there will never be a non chinese master? My buddy is studying under another 8 step sifu and he tells me that it is possible with enough training and time to became a master yourself. Maybe it changed.

Ok heres the low down with 8 step.

the sash program coordinates you and gives you a foundation. You learn all the fist, hand, elbow, blocks, kicking blocks, low kicks high kicks etc. This is your ground work. Personally I don't see why you can't just learn this is silver mantis, but I suppose its to break it down into clear attainable goals (rolleyes)

Then there is silver mantis. You learn a simplified version of gold mantis. IE no joint locks or throws, still cool, you can learn to defend yourself. I assume that this is like seven star with slightly less joint locks. Ironically this can take one to two years, about the same time as jumping into the sifu program.

gold mantis- If you simply advance, you will never advance past 5th gold. No possiblity of becomeing a sifu and learning more info. Your cut off at 5! To become a sifu you have to learn the tai chi, massage, iron body etc.

sifu training program-Sifu invites you into this. About 4,000-8,000 dollars depending on whose teaching from anywhere to 2-10 years depending on the person. You are forced to learn all the tai chi even if you don't want to. You learn throws joint locks, endure hardcore training and come out of it a fighting machine. He likes it even though he has no real social life anymore. The up side is that he learned massage from his sifu and now gets chicks while he puts in his hours for certification.

Another thing to consider. There are testing fees that go up gradually. Don't ask me why, but they do. Its actually cheaper to do the hardcore training.

BTW who is your sifu? You might be at the same school as my friend.

[Syre]

Hmm... sounds strange.

I'm not sure I got all that.

So what exactly do you not learn if you don't enter a sifu program and do all the iron body, etc?

I don't understand the silver/gold, etc.

Can you elaborate a little more?

Thanks.

[EARTH DRAGON]

if you look at our levels you will see that the sash level is the basic foundation of the system the body coodinations, the 8's, the kicks and the sets.
the silver level is applications to the above.
the gold level is the applications to the above with throws and jointlocks.
above that is the sifu level of applications for tai chi, herbology, bone setting, and accupuncture. again please tell me where you are and the name of the school and sifu so I can help you.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Syre]

Thanks for the info.... what do you have to say about what Nutt'nhunny said... that you can only go so far without joining the sifu program?

From what he was saying, it looked to me as if it wasn't just the tai chi and medical info that was only taught at that level, but that if you wanted some of the more advanced info about the preying mantis style, you were forced to do the other stuff too, whether you wanted to or not.

Or am I getting it wrong?

BTW, I would rather not say who the sifu I'm studying with is. It is someone who is to be found on the 8step.com web site, however, so it is someone within that organization.

Again, I have no complaints with what I've been taught so far, just looking for feedback on the style, the organization, etc.

Thanks again!

[Nutt'nhunny]

I don't know all the details. I talked to my friend, I'll try to clear this up again.

1. You can earn your way up to gold 5. After that, your done.

2.If you start learning Tai Chi along with the mantis by at least the start of gold mantis, you can still take the national sifu testing, but only if you learn the business side and learn to teach, and get apprentice teaching hours.

So yes, you also learn tai chi.

My buddy loves it and can beat me up, which is why I want to get into it, cuz before he had no chance against me. We have a bit of a kung fu brother friendly rivalry. So I want to learn it too.

:D

[Syre]

I guess the question is:

What is there after gold #5 which you don't get to learn unless you're selected for the sifu program?

In other words, is there knowledge that is held back or kept secret except to sifus or other 'inner door' students?

[Nutt'nhunny]

yes about 20 years of information left. As to what? I have no idea. My friend isn't even a sifu yet, so he doesn't know. All I know is that he is pretty far along and knows allot of the same stuff as his Sifu, not to mention that he is in a lot better shape, but his sifu can do little things to him that reverse whatever he does. We asked him to do it again, but he refused. I'm looking for a job in computor programming, but everyone these days is a computor programmer and the economy is bad. If I can relocate to a town with eight step, I'll join up for the long run, my Hsing I teacher is in bad with the master, so my training with him can only go so far.

I did train in 8step out in buffalo, but I hurt my knees jumping off a balcony, so I stopped, then moved away with my job. I'm hoping that I can go back there or to another one of the schools. **** my stupidity. Oh well.

[EARTH DRAGON]

the original reason that master sun began teaching non chinese and anyone who wished to learn was to spread the art to the masses. the reason was that he saw many systems of kung fu die with old masters who never passd on their knowledge, or if they did just a little which eventually would have to be mixed with other martial arts to fill in the gaps. He did not want to see 8 step sacome to this so he moved to san fransico and started teaching, all he asked was that if he taught you he wanted you to teach others to spread the art. After 1000's of would be sifu's he started to realize that people wanted to learn just for themselfs and not to teach others like he asked. Over the years this tarnished his outlook on lazy american people and he started to hold information back to protect the sytem. If you were willing to make a commitment to him and become a sifu, open a school and do as he asked you were then privledged to learn the complete system, however if you were learning to simply better yourself, get in shape or just learn something new then you were only taught so much I hope this explains some things.

nut n hunny you used to live in buffalo? were you my student? how are you? just curious

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Syre]

I mentioned this to a friend, and she was actually very approving of the idea that you should be forced to learn Tai Chi and traditional medicine to really be accepted into inner knowledge.

She said that the idea that a system would insist on passing down a complete set of knowledge made her feel it was genuine.

That is starting to make sense to me... except for the iron body stuff, which I really never want to do.

[Syre]

I still want to know what kinds of things are held back.

If they are things which would benefit many people, I still think they should be more openly taught.

And what if someone wants to learn the complete system but doesn't want to be a professional kung fu teacher, but wants to only pass it on to his children or a few others? I think that should be allowed too.

[KFO Admin]

Thought I'd wade in briefly with my perspective. Eight Step Praying Mantis is an authentic, traditional system of Kung Fu. Anyone priviledged enough to have a qualified instructor near them owes it to themselves to check this system out. Grandmaster Sun has done much to bring this system to the West. You mention colored belts/sashes as a "warning sign," but this is actually an update to the system to make it more "rewarding" for Americans who seem to need affirmation for every little achievement.

Eight Step uses a "Sash Program" followed by a Silver Mantis ranking level and a Gold Mantis ranking level. The Sash Program is perfect for most people who want to learn traditional Kung Fu, but can only train one or two days a week and/or have a life outside of the training hall.

Yes, there is lots of things that are "held back," but you'd never have time to train and learn them anyway. Don't worry about it.

If you're goal is to learn an entire traditional system, then you've probably already made your mind up to devote your life to the style. You're going to be spending almost all your free time on the training floor anyway, so you're long-range goal is to open your own school one day. If you're ready to make this kind of commitment, the "Sifu Program" will teach you the entire and complete authentic Praying Mantis Kung Fu system.

However, if you're "hard core" and want to learn the whole system, but aren't interested in being a Sifu, you're pretty much out of luck. That's the nature of the system. As with any large organization, there has been in-fighting in the Eight Step Federation with several Sifus complaining that they don't have the entire system after decades of training and running schools for the Federation. Probably the biggest sticking point has been the "Ground Fighting Level," which is known to only a handful of dedicated Sifus.

Is Eight Step Mantis "Authentic?"
Absolutely.

Of course, "authentic" has it's pros and cons. The PRO side is that you get to learn all of the arts of Kung Fu, including Taiji, Qigong and Healing. The CON side is you get stuck with a lot of the traditional "baggage," including stuff that can get you seriously hurt or worse in a real fight.

Is Eight Step Mantis Effective?
Absolutely.

If my "can get your seriously hurt" line got your attention, note that the vast majority of Mantis is a combat-proven martial art that is relentless and devastating. My personal favorite is the joint locking and throws that are based on the system of Shuai Chiao. As a whole, you will learn to be an effective fighter in the "Ba Bu Tang Lang" system.

Is Eight Step Mantis for Everyone?
Of course not.

If you're goal is to learn an Authentic Art of Kung Fu, you won't go wrong with Eight Step. If your goal is Combat/LEO/Military or personal self-defense training, it is of much ore limited value. The "basics" of Eight Step are the same basics you'd learn in any good system of Kung Fu, and are applicable to most any self-defense situtation. At higher levels, though, you have to begin making distinctions between "Art" and "Science," and this is something no Sifu is likely to tell you.

This is liable to get some folks upset, so I won't go into detail about this. Suffice to say that at some point, people who are interested in no-nonsense self-defence or combat science will stop Mantis training to avoid picking up habits that will get them hurt on the street. If you are ever on the training floor and are told, "We practice it THIS way so no one gets hurt, but if you ever have to use this for real you do it THIS OTHER way," then you've reached the breaking point between ART and SCIENCE.

This is not a slam against Eight Step, which I highly respect and admire. There is simply good points and bad for "tradition."

Syre, you're situation sounds very familiar. I hope this was helpful. If there's anything I can help with, Email me at "webmaster@kungfuonline.com".

[chyisan]

Where? When? Where can I get footage of this? And who's the fighter?

Mindlessness is the enemy...

[KFO Admin]

This was a number of years ago, but I believe it was Joel Sutton from NY that competed in the Octagon. There was only a brief clip in one of the UFC tapes, and I'm not aware of full footage of his UFC fights.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I couldnt have said it better myself! I lived at the HQ school in san fransico and learned a lot about masters sun's (my sifu's) goals. They are simple yet complicated, and as you said the long road is not for everyone but if you decide to put in your time and take the long road the rewards are waiting for you.

Syre, if you work for a large company and the boss knows you wont stay for very long or dont plan to retire from your job , how much inside information do you think you will get? that maybe a bad example but I think you get my point.
As for 8 step in the octagon it is UFC #6 in buffalo NY joel sutton the bloodiest match in UFC history it shows the whole match.

UFC # 7 he also fought and won but it did not make the final edit of the taped fights but highlights were shown

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[pain_junkie]

Everything's already been explained in excellent detail, but I thought i'd throw in 2 cents from a fellow beginner.

I started studying 8 step last january (or was it Feb? It was some cold, snowy month anyways). class situation was pretty much the same as you described (almost makes me wonder if we take from the same school). Progress is going way slower than I'd like. Not long after I joined up I caught something really nasty that was going around the dorms and in my family that put me out for almost 2 months. Then i got back and started building back up. Sometime this summer i took my first testing and earned my yellow sash. then I ran into some money trouble and had to take a leave of absense while I get things straightened out.

I'm not sure what martial arts background you have, but I studied taekwando for 4 years when i was younger and I can honestly say I learned more in the way of combat effective technique my first night at 8 step than I did in 4 years of TKD. My tkd class sucked, and i don't hold anything against the style. What I can say though is that I've had nothing but positive experiences with 8 step. It increased my flexibility, dropped 20 lbs, gained some muscle, learned a little bit about how to fight, and I've had a great time along the way. Like others have said, it's not for everyone but it's definitely taking a serious look at.

And about the sash system: In my closet I've got every TKD belt from white to one belt before black.. At the 8 step school I have (or should have..couldn't make it back to class not long after testing) a yellow sash waiting for me. That sash means more to me than all the TKD belts in the world, because I know that I EARNED it. Sifu didn't let me slide by like the teachers in TKD did. I had to meet certain physical requirements, have a knowledge of certain material, and be able to demonstrate it. There were standards and i had to meet them. Sashes and belts are just glorified pieces of twine to hold your pants up with, but at least I know I had to bust some serious a$$ for this piece of twine. =)

[EARTH DRAGON]

who is your sifu? how long have you been studying? I am glad you like the system, I was a black belt in goju ryu when I went to masters shyuns semminar in clarence in 1991, I fell in love with it immediatly, it was everything I was looking for, I was amazed at the effortless techniques in which master shyun would use to throw me and began learning 8 step from sifu dean until he and I moved to san fransico to live at the school, I obtained my sifu status moved back to buffalo and opened my own school and have been teaching ever since. good luck with your training I hope you stick with it!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[pain_junkie]

I take 8 step in Vermillion under sifu Loftus.

How long I've been training is a tricky question. =) I started in either mid-late January or early Febuary 2001. I was at class for a couple weeks and caught something nasty going around the dorms and at home. Came back in march or april I think. Tested in July, and haven't been back since. So I've been a member of the school for 9 months, but I've only gotten in about 4 months of actual training. It makes me mad, but I know it's just temporary, and the time off has also made me realize how much I love Fu. With anything else I've ever done in my life, if I had to leave for 2 months or 3 months at a time, I never would've come back. But there's no doubt in my mind I'll get back to Fu when all this blows over. A good night at Fu makes me feel better than anything else I've ever done in my life (except helping my friends), and I can't imagine not doing it even though I haven't been there in like 3 months...

[Syre]

Hey, I wrote to you twice and haven't heard back... are you going to reply to me?

Tnanks!