Question for teachers about apps practice

[andyhaas]

I've been thinking of teaching baguazhang but I can't get around the fact that the techniques my last teacher Zhang Jie dumped on me aren't kickboxing, and the forms aren't pretty wushu or karate.

I'm trying to figure out how to teach the apps he taught me safely. How do people teach throat grabs / eye rakes / throws / etc., and what age range do you think would be best? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it from a liability standpoint.

I'm thinking I'd have to require students to be at least 16+ years old, but I'm still worried of people over-extending themselves and messing themselves up or over as the case may be, simply because it's so hard practicing right without getting hurt.

[cjurakpt]

...that IS the question (and nicely worded) - pretty much goes to the heart of the dilemma facing TCMA these days in light of the rise of the MMA environment

and to add to the dilemma, how does one do it in the proper context, that is, pressure-tested against a non-compliant / resisting, skilled opponent?

so indeed, how does one appropriately practice so-called "deadly" techniques? and also, how does one actually find out if said techniques are worth practicing (e.g. - are they high-percentage when done in the above described context?); I mean, in theory, the only way to really know that is to actually see the effect when you go full tilt...

this is a potentially excellent discussion - so please no one troll onto this...

[B-Rad]

How were you taught and what live experience do you have with the techniques?

[Shaolin]

It doesn't sound like you have been formally instructed on how to teach, which means you shouldn't. Each student is different and each student should be treated as a precious gem. Some students that will come to you have special needs and have to be handled delicately and with compassion. Being an instructor can be a powerful postition, students will trust you, look up to you, believe in you. There are some instructors who abuse this power.

Before you begin instructing honestly ask yourself if you feel qualified to teach, because it's more than just showing some fancy techniques. Any child can point out anothers mistakes, but a true teacher inspires.

[diego]

I've been thinking of teaching baguazhang but I can't get around the fact that the techniques my last teacher Zhang Jie dumped on me aren't kickboxing, and the forms aren't pretty wushu or karate.

I'm trying to figure out how to teach the apps he taught me safely. How do people teach throat grabs / eye rakes / throws / etc., and what age range do you think would be best? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it from a liability standpoint.

I'm thinking I'd have to require students to be at least 16+ years old, but I'm still worried of people over-extending themselves and messing themselves up or over as the case may be, simply because it's so hard practicing right without getting hurt.

well if you know you can use lethal techniques on the street, then you just need to work you cardio and strength and teach your students the forms and drills and grab the gloves and box...wrestling is fun if you don't know grappling.

if you can tap a guys chin with your jab and put him to bed with your cross raking and gouging is not that big a deal...the throat and eyes are softer than the jaw.:)

[cjurakpt]

It doesn't sound like you have been formally instructed on how to teach, which means you shouldn't. Each student is different and each student should be treated as a precious gem. Some students that will come to you have special needs and have to be handled delicately and with compassion. Being an instructor can be a powerful postition, students will trust you, look up to you, believe in you. There are some instructors who abuse this power.

Before you being instructing honestly ask yourself if you feel qualified to teach, because it's more than just showing some fancy techniques. Any child can point out anothers mistakes, but a true teacher inspires.

sounds like you are in a real hurry to do just that yourself...:rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just do it the way the Olden time masters did....get your alive training on Maurading invaders attacking your village or caravan....then you can break them all you want, thus getting all the alive practice you need, and it does not matter.

[BruceSteveRoy]

sounds like you are in a real hurry to do just that yourself...:rolleyes:

Awww snap!

[andyhaas]

Hmmm ... as for being formally instructed to teach, I got permission at least to teach a few people, if that's what you mean. As for the drills, they're pretty straightforward, I just don't run into many schools these days that actually do that sort of thing. It's pretty much just punch-kick, etc.

Some people do 2-man practice forms, but I'm just worried about techniques and people getting hurt. I don't really want to make students take forms for years before training apps but unfortunately I don't know what kind of control students have. As for the actually testing the apps myself on the street, no, I haven't. Don't have much opportunity to fight. But one example is like palm back to the floating ribs to break the ribs, other person blocks with downward palm, then exchange a strike to the ribs on the side, trade off. That one isn't exactly rocket science, as the floating ribs are easy to break.

I don't want to charge for lessons, but from a liability standpoint, that's probably a bad idea because it's not worth it to teach and be open to people suing.

So ... I'm not sure. I'm not really in a position to open a school right now and I checked on liability insurance, and it's about $500 per year or something, so I guess I won't teach right now.

[rogue]

What we do is go slow but smooth on anything dangerous. We'll also let the person feel the technique in a controlled manner before they use it on the instructor and then a senior student. We never let two noobs do anything to each other. Also we use the safer versions of a technique when training moderate or full speed. Many times the safer version is more useful for what they average person will actually face anyway.

[andyhaas]

What we do is go slow but smooth on anything dangerous. We'll also let the person feel the technique in a controlled manner before they use it on the instructor and then a senior student. We never let two noobs do anything to each other. Also we use the safer versions of a technique when training moderate or full speed. Many times the safer version is more useful for what they average person will actually face anyway.

I had planned on doing it like jujitsu practice where you try techs, but talking to my friends all I get trying to explain the bagua apps is blank stares.

They're familiar with jujitsu or judo, like, okay, throw or grapple. They're familiar with karate, like, okay, punch or kick, and spar like Bruce Lee, go forward, backward, etc. They're familiar with the UFC.

But start talking about breaking floating ribs, blocking rib breaks, throat grabs, blocking throat grabs, standing throws, techniques to avoid standing throws, etc., and their eyes start to glaze over.

Anybody else have that problem? I found one friend's daughter who claimed she wanted to study taiji apps, so I started to break out basic ones, but when I started to get into the first ones of the form, breaking out of grabs by hitting the underside of the arm, neck breaks, etc., she lost interest really fast.

I'm starting to think the average person just isn't cut out for CMA apps, that maybe they don't have the attention span? What apps do you guys teach?

[mantis108]

You don't have to breaking someone's bone to get out of a grab. That's either ego or macho BS. Basic Chin Na moves (if you intended to stay on your feet) will do nicely without miming your opponent and you can practice them with resistive force. So I will say learn those to compliment your Bagua if that really is what you have.

Mantis108

[andyhaas]

You don't have to breaking someone's bone to get out of a grab. That's either ego or macho BS. Basic Chin Na moves (if you intended to stay on your feet) will do nicely without miming your opponent and you can practice them with resistive force. So I will say learn those to compliment your Bagua if that really is what you have.

Mantis108

I never said you have to break someone's bone to get out of a grab, but the basic taiji entry can be used to get out of a grab either by striking the underside of the arm, which is a basic application. It's neither ego NOR macho B.S.

[rogue]

I'm starting to think the average person just isn't cut out for CMA apps, that maybe they don't have the attention span? What apps do you guys teach?
Don't blame the average person, as you may just not be selling what they want, or worse it could be your teaching method. Have you thought about starting them out with a more sport oriented approach and move into the other techniques later?


But start talking about breaking floating ribs, blocking rib breaks, throat grabs, blocking throat grabs, standing throws, techniques to avoid standing throws, etc., and their eyes start to glaze over.

Sounds like the same stuff that we do (I'm a a LARPer BTW). If people's eyes glaze over you could be making things overly complicated, over explaining the techniques, presenting them with material that they're not interested in or just grossed out by what you're teaching. I've run across the last one in people, many TMAs, who bought into the entire thing about having honor in battle and stopping an attacker without hurting them jive.

BTW, are these people already experienced MAs?

[andyhaas]

If peoples eyes glaze over you could be making things overly complicated, over explaining the techniques, presenting them with material that they're not interested in or just grossed out by what you're teaching. I've run across the last one in people, many TMAs, who bought into the entire thing about having honor in battle and stopping an attacker without hurting them jive.

BTW, are these people already experienced MAs?

Yeah, they already have taken something, usually a flavor of karate or Taekwondo.

I think it's just overly complicated. In Taekwondo or karate you learn like 20+ forms, take like 20+ tests, then spar with kickboxing.

When you get into techs beyond kickboxing, nobody seems to want to do it, and their eyes glaze over. I think it's just too complicated for them to deal with. Same thing happens if you take one of their forms and break it down into apps they run back to their kickboxing as well.

But it could be the violence thing. I have no idea. Nobody believes me the first like 10 moves in most taiji forms are like for breaking wrists, necks, throws, etc. I have a hard time finding ANYONE who believes there are even any taiji apps which is a bit ironic.

At any rate, I guess I'm a bit frustrated over this but honestly, dealing with MA people recently has been like dealing with a brick wall. It's hard enough to get people away from the T.V. for five minutes, but once you get them away, they pretty much do TKD or karate, and apps practice IS UFC or kickboxing. Start talking about any kind of disabling technique or structured applications practice, and their eyes glaze over.

[rogue]

When you get into techs beyond kickboxing, nobody seems to want to do it, and their eyes glaze over. I think it's just too complicated for them to deal with. Same thing happens if you take one of their forms and break it down into apps they run back to their kickboxing as well.

I really believe if something is coming across as complicated in the MA it could be the instructors fault. People do complicated things everyday without even thinking about them, so the instructor has to either adjust how he's teaching or find out why the student is making something complicated.

If you aren't having success with breaking down forms to teach applications then don't do it. Drop the darn things as most karate people don't look to kata for applications or even link them to fighting. If they are kickboxers then figure out how to use kickboxing as the jumping off point for what you're teaching.

But it could be the violence thing. I have no idea.
Don't you think you should find out?

[andyhaas]

When you get into techs beyond kickboxing, nobody seems to want to do it, and their eyes glaze over. I think it's just too complicated for them to deal with. Same thing happens if you take one of their forms and break it down into apps they run back to their kickboxing as well.

I really believe if something is coming across as complicated in the MA it could be the instructors fault. People do complicated things everyday without even thinking about them, so the instructor has to either adjust how he's teaching or find out why the student is making something complicated.

If you aren't having success with breaking down forms to teach applications then don't do it. Drop the darn things as most karate people don't look to kata for applications or even link them to fighting. If they are kickboxers then figure out how to use kickboxing as the jumping off point for what you're teaching.

But it could be the violence thing. I have no idea.
Don't you think you should find out?

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:

a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.

[rogue]

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:
I'm not insinuating, I'm being up front, when people are having a problem in a class the common denominator is the instructor. Many times the only person who doesn't see this is the instructor.


a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

As a recovering karateka most karate schools never get into bunkai, ever. The emphasis is on kata as performance art and various types of kumite for fighting skills.

What's up with the IQ focus? You're an instructor, you're job is to take average people and bring them to whatever level of proficiency they can achieve. It's really that simple. The best teachers I have had were always the ones that did more thinking about how to make me better than believing I couldn't ever understand something.


b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

And that's a problem? I have met very few people that think about personally inflicting pain on others. And I hate to break the news but living a healthy life is the first and most important part of self defense.


I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.
PC is David Ross' area of expertise.:D

[SPJ]

I was going to post more.

somehow, my computer loads very and very slow tonite.

as pointed out.

1, if you use palm strikes more, we have to condition our hands such as in iron palm or eagle claw.

2. if you want to practice qin na and anti qin na, there are a lot of ba gua moves getting in and out qin na. then we have to practice grabbing or pinching powers with our fingers.

3. if you want to focus on throws, we have to work on our lifting powers, leg and back powers etc, we have to practice with a dummy or even a pole with a weight on one end as those used in shuai jiao.

--

in short a lot of conditioning and practice with equipments.

as you pointed out, safe partner training is very important.

we have to go thru techniques together, and modify some of the end points to be safe for every one participating.

--

like it or not, human body is very fragile or easy to break.

just a lot of cautions and know when and how to stop before some serious injury occurs.

best of luck.

:)

[the Preacher]

I've been thinking of teaching baguazhang but I can't get around the fact that the techniques my last teacher Zhang Jie dumped on me aren't kickboxing, and the forms aren't pretty wushu or karate.

I'm trying to figure out how to teach the apps he taught me safely. How do people teach throat grabs / eye rakes / throws / etc., and what age range do you think would be best? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it from a liability standpoint.

I'm thinking I'd have to require students to be at least 16+ years old, but I'm still worried of people over-extending themselves and messing themselves up or over as the case may be, simply because it's so hard practicing right without getting hurt.


?how your teacher taught you, that might work for you?
anyway
cool video
Bagua training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajaonqHRwLQ)



to be able to use any application
takes lots of repetition (kung fu)
and proper technique (form)

safety first
specific equipment can help tremendously
train step by step


as far as liability
waivers help

[diego]

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:

a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.
the average joe is not that active, so yeah good luck teaching traditional gung fu to a nerd:)

seriously, I've been doing construction for the last ten years and my body is just now ready to master my basics...horse to steal step to twist step drop back one leg sink to lean horse...low sweeps to tornado kicks...the average joe doesn't have the hips for that


my only advice to you is teach them to love hard work before you even talk about killing and the art of mastering aggression to create internal peace. you know how many times i been punched in the head to create internal peace...I mean the average joe ain't having it:D

[Shaolin]

sounds like you are in a real hurry to do just that yourself...:rolleyes:

Yes I am, because teaching the martial arts is a privilege, not a right. The student's best interests must be considered before each lesson presented. Take for example a woman that seeks training because she has been abused, and comes to a school to build her physical, mental, and emotional strengths. If the woman is not gently guided through her training she could not only quit the arts but the experience could be damaging to her self-esteem. The arts are supposed to help build the student's inner and outer strengths not take from them. This is why I say, if one has not been formally instructed how to teach, then they should not.

[Chosen-frozen]

Hmmm ... as for being formally instructed to teach, I got permission at least to teach a few people, if that's what you mean. As for the drills, they're pretty straightforward, I just don't run into many schools these days that actually do that sort of thing. It's pretty much just punch-kick, etc.

Some people do 2-man practice forms, but I'm just worried about techniques and people getting hurt. I don't really want to make students take forms for years before training apps but unfortunately I don't know what kind of control students have. As for the actually testing the apps myself on the street, no, I haven't. Don't have much opportunity to fight. But one example is like palm back to the floating ribs to break the ribs, other person blocks with downward palm, then exchange a strike to the ribs on the side, trade off. That one isn't exactly rocket science, as the floating ribs are easy to break.

I don't want to charge for lessons, but from a liability standpoint, that's probably a bad idea because it's not worth it to teach and be open to people suing.

So ... I'm not sure. I'm not really in a position to open a school right now and I checked on liability insurance, and it's about $500 per year or something, so I guess I won't teach right now.

If you`re really interested in protecting yourself from being sued, find a lawyer and resister as a corperation in your state. Then if someone sues your school, they can`t take your personal property (house, car, place a garnish on your wages,etc) becauseyou and you school are two seperate legal entities. This also protects you from something as simple as some dope tripping on the carpet in your place.

Incorperating will also save you thousands in taxes because all business expenses are deducted BEFORE you add up your taxable income.