Mac...it just works...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So I was at a shop yesterday with my laptop hooked up to thier printer and it wasn't working. As we are trying to configure it to print on thier printer and got it all loaded in and installed, one of the tools from the back shop comes in and asks what we are doing. I explain we had to install the printer on my laptop and we were now looking through the list to point my laptop from my default printer to the new one so I could print the estimate to the shop's printer.

Wouldn't you know it he goes "Pc ehy? You should get a Mac. I have a Mac, Macs just work...."

I thought for a second and knowing full well they don't make my estimating software for Macs, AND a Mac would probably need to install the drivers for this printer too....I cracked him in the back of the head on auto piolet and frustration with sheer idiocy.

was I wrong?

[couch]

So I was at a shop yesterday with my laptop hooked up to thier printer and it wasn't working. As we are trying to configure it to print on thier printer and got it all loaded in and installed, one of the tools from the back shop comes in and asks what we are doing. I explain we had to install the printer on my laptop and we were now looking through the list to point my laptop from my default printer to the new one so I could print the estimate to the shop's printer.

Wouldn't you know it he goes "Pc ehy? You should get a Mac. I have a Mac, Macs just work...."

I thought for a second and knowing full well they don't make my estimating software for Macs, AND a Mac would probably need to install the drivers for this printer too....I cracked him in the back of the head on auto piolet and frustration with sheer idiocy.

was I wrong?

I don't have a Mac...but my next computer will be one. So sick of PC issues...

I know for a fact that there is a program that you can install on a Mac to then run PC applications. Also, because of the Intel processor now available on the Macs, you can dual-boot the computer for Windows as well if you really wanted to.

Hope this helps. I will soon join the lunatic fringe.

PS Did you have your MMA gloves on you when you cracked him one? Always save your hands, man!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Golden Spider]

I'm using a Mac right now, PCs are garbage. Windows operating platforms have one purpose, and one purpose only: To crash hard drives. The infamous Mr. Gates has been cashing in for some years now. Please don't preach to me about recent improvements in PC/WIN/VISTA material, just the evolution of efficient slave labor in action.
~They might catch up to the Mac, one day.

[冠木侍]

I was thinking about getting a MAC for my next PC or laptop. VISTA is still relatively new and every new PC is loaded with it. They've saturated the market. I don't think MaC will be difficult to learn.

Then after that...I need to learn LInux. :cool:

[Yao Sing]

Why not just get the Intel version of OS X and install it on your current computer? Set it up to dual boot and you should be fine.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

See, here is the thing, PC's are infinitely configurable. Every one is custom tuned to the owners specific application. For example, mine is configured for my printer, and now that shops.

Also, as for the Mac running PC software, I was told by my estimating system provider NOT to go that route because running thier software on a Mac even with that conversion software is very buggy and unreliable.

I have seen people with plenty of mac related problems that are no different that a PC over the years as well. The ONLY thing they seem to be better with is they get less virus attacks....but that is because they only have a small share of the market anyway.

Mac going to an intel based platform really means they have conceded that the PC is the superior platform.

So all these "Mac is superior" oriented comments are just crap...if it was so darn good Macs would be running corporate America instead of PCs.

[CLFLPstudent]

See, here is the thing, PC's are infinitely configurable. Every one is custom tuned to the owners specific application. For example, mine is configured for my printer, and now that shops.

What does this mean? You have the same configurations for printers in a Mac as you do in a PC. If you could elaborate then maybe I could understand this claim.


Also, as for the Mac running PC software, I was told by my estimating system provider NOT to go that route because running thier software on a Mac even with that conversion software is very buggy and unreliable.

Well, could be, but it could also be your provider doesn't know a thing about Mac's and just told you this. If you mean running a Windows app inside of a Windows-emulator, then yeah it'll run slower. If it's proprietary software that runs only in Windows then it'll never run under OS X. Kind of a moot point.


I have seen people with plenty of mac related problems that are no different that a PC over the years as well. The ONLY thing they seem to be better with is they get less virus attacks....but that is because they only have a small share of the market anyway.

Again with this claim. Name specific Mac problems these 'people' have. Chances are, these 'people' would have more problems on a Windows box than they are having on their Macs.


Mac going to an intel based platform really means they have conceded that the PC is the superior platform.

Ugggh. Apple switched over to an Intel based chip because of price. Intel out-bid Motorola for the contract, that's it. If anything, the switch to Intel processors have opened the Mac OS up to attacks, whereas the Motorola chips were locked up tight. Do I need to re-post the links where the US Army is switching over to Mac OS machines to the tune of 40,000 a year?

You like your PC, fine. But you are as guilty of the "My platform is sooo superior to yours" attitude that you claim Mac users have.

Oh -And the first thing out of a Mac Support Techs mouth isn't "reinstall the OS first" like you get with PC's. Bottom line is, with all of your tweaking comes risk of effing something up pretty bad, resulting in multiple "reformat and reinstall" jobs, whereas my box runs fine for 2 years with less than half the RAM of yours and ZERO ( read: ZERO) crashes. Zero viruses ( virii?) even while running no anti-virus aoftware, and no spyware slowdowns. Don't have to worry about defragging my drive. Nothing to overclock ( overheat and fry). Don't even need a software Firewall - just what I configure on my Router.


So all these "Mac is superior" oriented comments are just crap...if it was so darn good Macs would be running corporate America instead of PCs.

Well, actually the reason Mac has not invaded Corporate America to a large extent is because the price of PC's is lower. Kind of a 'you get what you pay for' thing.



Enough of this topic.

-David

[andyhaas]

It was interesting using a Mac recently and I thought the Mac would be a lot better than it was. I guess after Vista and stuff, Mac has become pretty dated.

Basically it is no better, and doesn't even look that great. In fact, after Vista, it was kindof klunky.

But a lot of people are Mac zealots, especially in the entertainment industry.

[Mas Judt]

I've been running multiple Macs for years. Prior to this, I ran a department that was required to be PC - based - and it forced me to be a IT guy. I wasted vast amounts of time just to get those boxes to do what they are supposed to do, much less dealing with crashes, 'fatal errors', memory issues and on and on.

On the Macs - little to no trouble. I type this on a five year-old machine that has NEVER crashed, Never caught a virus, Never had a problem. Yet I've abused the SH!T out of it. It is a huge relief knowing the MAC works and I won't be spending endless hours dealing with hassles.

The MAC OS, in terms of functionality and simplicity is a good five years ahead of Vista. (Vista is, in fact an incredibly bad rip-off of OS X - I played with it a bit on a Toshiba machine I run a Linux experiment on).

MACs for the most part do 'just work.' But chances are you'd still have to install a printer driver. So that guy deserved to get whacked just for making the obviously more intelligent Mac users look stupid ;)

[andyhaas]

I've been running multiple Macs for years. Prior to this, I ran a department that was required to be PC - based - and it forced me to be a IT guy. I wasted vast amounts of time just to get those boxes to do what they are supposed to do, much less dealing with crashes, 'fatal errors', memory issues and on and on.

On the Macs - little to no trouble. I type this on a five year-old machine that has NEVER crashed, Never caught a virus, Never had a problem. Yet I've abused the SH!T out of it. It is a huge relief knowing the MAC works and I won't be spending endless hours dealing with hassles.

The MAC OS, in terms of functionality and simplicity is a good five years ahead of Vista. (Vista is, in fact an incredibly bad rip-off of OS X - I played with it a bit on a Toshiba machine I run a Linux experiment on).

MACs for the most part do 'just work.' But chances are you'd still have to install a printer driver. So that guy deserved to get whacked just for making the obviously more intelligent Mac users look stupid ;)

Back in the day Macs never crashed. LOL Macs have crashed since at least 1984 when I tried the first one. It was slow. It 'bombed'. After that, you had to be careful with those sys startups or whatever because you always had to have the right versions, etc. But there wasn't anything that could do the same thing except a Sun workstation or something. PCs took until Win2K to do it.

But Mac zealots always claim up and down it never crashes, drivers are great, etc., but they never say you have to use certain hardware, there is like a 95% chance the hardware you want to buy won't have a driver, etc.

There was a time in the early 90s when Macs were WAY better than PCs, but since Win 2K, it just ain't so.

[Yao Sing]

Mac going to an intel based platform really means they have conceded that the PC is the superior platform.

So all these "Mac is superior" oriented comments are just crap...if it was so darn good Macs would be running corporate America instead of PCs.

Let's clarify things here a little: There's the hardware platform and the OS.

The "Mac's are superior" claims come from the user friendly OS where the internals are mostly shielded from the user to make it more of a "consumer device". The GUI was ripped off from Xerox

The "PC's are superior" notion comes from the Intel architecture and made it's name well before the introduction of Windows and grew from the hobbyist culture. It wasn't until the introduction of Windows that it became more of an "end user" product. The GUI was ripped off from Apple.

I haven't tried it out yet but it could be that the marriage of OS x and Intel CPU will have both camps beat. I have a copy but plus a spare computer but I was planning a Linux installation instead. Maybe I'll set it up to dual-boot both of them.

Actually I might just pick up a mid-range Powerbook.

[andyhaas]

The reason PCs kicked Mac's ass is because you weren't locked into certain hardware.

When Apple allowed Mac clones their marketshare got clobbered and they freaked out and broke all their licensing agreements for hardware.

I was hoping that Mac would be a much superior operating system and tried one out recently, thinking that Jobs would release OS/X for PCs and that would be the end of Windows but after trying out the apps, I have to say that Windows apps are for the most part easier to use than Apple apps, if you're used to Windows. Windows has a lot more menus and features like mouse with 2 buttons and a little thing for scrolling, etc., that Mac doesn't seem to have.

Underneath, Mac is a flavor of BSD (Darwin), but the UI doesn't seem superior enough to Windows to win any sort of OS war.

[PlumDragon]

People seem to automatically associate PCs with Windows. There are operating systems for PCs other than windows (read: *nix), and none of them have problems with crashes, spyware, viruses, or bloated code, which really goes to show the versatility of the products of the PC industry...and for the most part, these other OSes are free, software and all...Not to mention that the majority of computer scientists and engineers do their work on PCs.

Peeling another layer back, a huge share of the worlds computer systems run hard real-time software and dont use PCs or Macs at all (although many use Intel chips), because they lack determinism in their processing paradigms, what with all the pipelining and and VLIWs, and predictive processing, etc. Its really actually a very complex question and varies widely depending on the type of company and focus you direct the question to...

With that said, Id probably buy a Mac if they werent so **** expensive.

[andyhaas]

People seem to automatically associate PCs with Windows. There are operating systems for PCs other than windows (read: *nix), and none of them have problems with crashes, spyware, viruses, or bloated code...and for the most part, are free, software and all...Not to mention that the majority of computer scientists and engineers do their work on PCs.

With that said, Id probably buy a Mac if they werent so **** expensive.

What versions of *NIX do you use? I think people need to be a little more realistic here. Everything crashes. Linux and *NIX GUIs tend to be less tested than Windows which is tested by millions of users, and I hate to say it (having been a strong proponent of Linux and *NIX variants), but the apps and GUIs just aren't there.

That being said, for years the only way to get any desktop publishing or music made pretty much was an Apple, but that just ain't so any more. Still, most of the best programs are on Apple for this. Most are on Windows now as well, but not all of them.

But overall, I tried to use Linux for everyday use and just failed because the GUI would crash a lot. Gnome and KDE have a lot of problems and leaks. If you're looking for something to host your website, great, because there are billions of website hits daily on *NIX but for apps and GUI, you'd be hard pressed to find all your productivity apps and finance apps, etc., on *NIX.

So for that stuff, it's pretty much Windows or shoe-horn yourself into the Apple world and live in a little box. Which isn't a bad box if you're into DTP or entertainment, but if you're used to Windows it seems a bit clunky.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It was interesting using a Mac recently and I thought the Mac would be a lot better than it was. I guess after Vista and stuff, Mac has become pretty dated.

Basically it is no better, and doesn't even look that great. In fact, after Vista, it was kindof klunky.

But a lot of people are Mac zealots, especially in the entertainment industry.

Reply]
This is pretty much my point, Macs are not *Better* than PC's, they have to be de fraged and maintained too...it is just built in to the OS so you can't choose other software for the job.

As for my estimating system provider, they are the experts on what thier system runs on. If they say they have noting but problems trying to run it on Macs, then that is the case. They are the ones trying to install and run thier software on all sorts of configurations day in, and day out. Trying to claim they don't understand macs is just stupid.

I have had freinds dump Macs and go back to PC laptops because they were nothing but problems and were not compatible with anything outside thier limited world.

In reality, once your PC is set up, it's going to be pretty darn reliable. Even my home made system rarely has a problem, and ultimately it's because of my lack of building experience more than anything.

All bodyshops run on PC's. In all the years I have been in this business, I have only seen one problem that was the systems fault....even though body shops fill the air with dust that clogs the systems up and causes them to run hot due to dust induced cooling problems.

In reality, regardless of the Mac zealot's claim, Macs run on a VERY narrow spectrum. Most industry specific programs will not run on a Mac, and any additional software patches installed on Mac *Claiming* to fix this don't work very well and are buggy and unreliable at best.

But Mac Zealots insist that Mac's "Just Work" like blind robotic drones regurgitating mindless propaganda, and THAT is what irritates me the most.

When Macs HONESTLY have as much versatility and applications as PC's do, then maybe they would have a leg to stand on, but whenyou Google "Mac help fixes" and get this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 3,630,000 for Mac help fixes.

and "Known Mac problems" returns this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 819,000 for Known Mac problems

Or "Mac OS problems" yields this result:

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,860,000 for Mac OS problems

Or this one:

"Mac harware issues and problems":

returns this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 872,000 for Mac hardware issues and problems

I'd have to say Macs are buggy to the core and seem to be nothing but trouble for anyone trying to do much more than play video games and E-mail on them. Really, over 8 HUNDRED thousand pages on Mac problems? and these morons still mindlessly say "It just works?" Really, how brain dead do you have to be to believe that nonsense. If they were really any good, corporate America (which NEEDS reliable systems) would all be on Mac by now...it *IS* 2008 you know, not the Computer dark ages of the 1980's.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One more point, No matter WHO your computer is built buy, it has to be built to meet, or exceed your needs.

I have 2 PC's, one is my home made desktop, and the other is a crappy low end Averatec laptop. Now, despite Averatecs inherent crapiness and cheap hardware problems, I can STILL run it with 25-30 windows open all at one time without crashing it, or even really slowing it down...on ONLY 512 Ram.

The only time I really had a speed problem was when it got a virus some months ago. It still didn't crash though, it just got slow till I ran a spyware program later that day....and that is the only area a Mac can claim any superiority....because they have such a small share of the market no one bothers to write a virus for them. Harldy an issue considering it won't reliably run industry specific software...which renders it useless anyway.

Also, when I have seen Mac users deal with Virus attacks, they totally crash the system and destroy it's ability to function at all...PC's just slow down a bit till you clean them out.

My Desktop has a full bank of Ram chips totaling many Gigs worth of Ram (I'd have to open it and count the chip to tell you how much). For the most part it is very reliable, lightning fast, and NEVER locks up. Especially now that I just upgraded it to new large drives (A 40, and a 250 gig).

Again, it's about the machine's build matching or exceeding your needs, not the manufacturer. Telling me to get a Mac because "Mac's just work" because you see me adjusting the way my machine is configured is asinine...and Mac people allways do that. It's especially irritating because I'm not even having a problem, I'm just expanding my units configurations.

[andyhaas]

I think it's the scrolling wheel thing or the right button. Maybe I'm just addicted to the scrolling wheel thing but when I tried the Mac it only had 1 button. I still can't believe the mouse doesn't have a scrolling wheel or 2 buttons.

[PlumDragon]

What versions of *NIX do you use? I think people need to be a little more realistic here. Everything crashes. Linux and *NIX GUIs tend to be less tested than Windows which is tested by millions of users, and I hate to say it (having been a strong proponent of Linux and *NIX variants), but the apps and GUIs just aren't there.Well in college I used to be a *nix junkie, played around with just about everything out there, wrote some kernel code, did lots of lisp (at first only because I was taking lots of AI classes). Today I stick with pretty much just Fedora Core as I tend to dislike computers more and more as I age and Fedora is pretty easy to use and maintain.

Obviously everything crashes, but I average about 39-40 days between reboots between all 3 of the *nix machines in the house, one of which is a web server, another of which is an old Pentium II that outperforms windows running on a P5 on some occasions. The times that I do crash are usually silly stupid little things too--Funny enough, Ive gotten in the habit of heating up a bottle of jow on top of the video card on one of my Fedora machines, which has the side panel always open. I rebooted today for the first time in over 2 months, because I accidentally dislodged the video card when grabbing the jow...I got a laugh out of that! =) If I had to guess, Id say that 90% of my reboots come from stupid stuff like that, or power outages.

Id argue that these systems are likely just as well tested as Windows systems though. Not as many people use them, but if you stop by likely any college on the planet, there is likely to be a group of students that do nothing with their spare time but tweak and screw with linux...You know the ones, bored with all their programming classes because they wrote all the programs in High School, so they play with Debian all day long.



But overall, I tried to use Linux for everyday use and just failed because the GUI would crash a lot. Gnome and KDE have a lot of problems and leaks. If you're looking for something to host your website, great, because there are billions of website hits daily on *NIX but for apps and GUI, you'd be hard pressed to find all your productivity apps and finance apps, etc., on *NIX.Well, I suppose it just depends on your objective (as I mentioned earlier, many specific types of applications cant use PCs or Macs because of lack of determinism). In all fairness, Ive about had it with one of my nix machines, but thats primarily because I dont care to spend the time finding the packages I want. Real hardcore nix guys can do/make jstu about anythign they need with what amoutns to basic package installs. And while Open Office and Evolution take care of most of my needs at home, I will agree with you that the packages for nix are a bit more difficult to find, and nix overall, is much more of a "programmers" interface. ie, its not really meant for the masses even though its been marketed more in that direction in recent years.

Keep in mind, I did say that if Macs werent so **** expensive, Id probably be using one... =)

[Mas Judt]

Also, when I have seen Mac users deal with Virus attacks, they totally crash the system and destroy it's ability to function at all...PC's just slow down a bit till you clean them out.

Who do you hang out with?

Basically you need a PC for your job. That's great.

On almost every benchmark, the MAC is a superior system. But if you REALLY like a PC, and you are good with all the hassles that come with it, go with that.

For me, for my business, using Macs is a net saving because they do 'just work' - in every way. PC's are catching up - they are a lot better than they used to be. The pre-Vista OS was actually pretty stable - just clunky and inefficient.

If you like messing with stuff - there is some awesome Linux stuff out there...

[jo]

Also, as for the Mac running PC software, I was told by my estimating system provider NOT to go that route because running thier software on a Mac even with that conversion software is very buggy and unreliable.

Thats pretty funny son, considering that all my Intel chipped Mac's with Parallels run Windoze just fine, thank you.

- jo

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

On almost every benchmark, the MAC is a superior system.

Reply]
Did you not read the post I made where I googled various Mac queries and found 8 HUNDRED THOUSAND pages on things like "Mac problems" & "Mac OS issues" etc...?

Macs are clearly not very reliable at all. It's just propaganda.

It all boils down to what machine matches or exceeds your needs. It does not matter who make it so long as it's a good fit for you.

Some nob spouting Mac propaganda at me and implying I am having a problem (to dig at me and simutaniously prop up his unjustified position) when I am just expanding my machines configurations is going to get him hit in the head. That is my new policy from now on.

The thing that gets me, I was running close to 30 open windows all simutaniously WHILE installing this shops printer on my laptop, with only 512 of Ram....and it didn't even slow down. I somehow doubt a Mac would perform well under that kind of pressure.

[andyhaas]

Don't argue:

Politics or religion.

Religion includes just about everything the other person believes, and politics includes anything and anyone the other person feels strongly about.

So what is a safe topic?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Thats pretty funny son, considering that all my Intel chipped Mac's with Parallels run Windoze just fine, thank you.

Reply]
My charting service won't run on a Mac either.

Also, a Mac with Intel inside is just a PC in disguise...which means even MAC themselves is admitting defeat.

[Mas Judt]

Well, I speak from personal experience. What is your experience with your PC again?

I wonder what you would google about Vista/wintel or all the different brands of PC's? I'd bet the number is substantial. On top of that, there is no clear delineation oof WHAT those '8,000' posts actually contain, how many are repeated or how many are stupid user tricks.

my experience running offices wiith both PC's and Macs have demonstrated to me that the Mac frankly is superior on almost every benchmark. For that matter, if you actually analyzed data instead of just posting random google searches, I'm confident my position would be supported.

Please refer to the earlier post on the price of the chips as to the intel switch. If anything, Microsoft has been trying very hard to simply imitate what the Mac has already accomplished.

Most of the benefits of the Mac are realized by the OS. So until the Mac is sold running windows, I'm not sure if your statement even qualifies as logical.

For most uses I strongly suggest Macs. But hey, I know some people have unnarural attachments to their PC's. Enjoy it and all the extra hours you will lose trying to do things people already do on Macs without problems or wasted time.

[Mas Judt]

Also, a Mac with Intel inside is just a PC in disguise...which means even MAC themselves is admitting defeat.

The inanity of this quote is beneath you. It is almost Moo-ish....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yeah, it's from Special Private course 1001101001001110001110 :rolleyes:

How do you run offices with Macs, say like a Bodyshop office when the software does not run on a Mac (Like ADP's Shoplink or Penpro estimating system)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Most of the benefits of the Mac are realized by the OS.

Reply]
And just what are these benefits of the super ubber Mac anyway? They don't get as many viruses, due to a ridiculously small market share, and general maintenance functions are imbeded so the user does not see them occurring?

I have heard people make all kinds of claims, but so far every time I have ever looked into things, macs are not very compatible with the rest of the computing world, common software either does not run on them, or are buggy so you cannot use them to communicate in an industry that is not on thier platform (of which very few are) and for everyone who swears by them, there are just as many who swear at them and advise sticking with a well built PC.

So unless you are in a nitch industry that is Mac heavy, you are going to be at a disadvantage by using one.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I had a freind of mine that had her Mac crash due to a virus it got. I kept her company once while she spent 9 hours trying to get it working again...this included a final solution of deleting the OS, and reloading it all from scratch.

The Mac had useless virus handling capabilities, and was nothing but major frustration for her.

Once she got it running it seemed like a nice system and all, but I certainly didn't see anything to justify it supposed superiority to anything else.

I have another friend who lost all of his video to a Virus that attacked his Mac, in the last 8-9 moths.

My sister has had Mac crashes in the past and lost everything on several occasions as well. Even when it does work, she spent more time playing with it, and tweaking it than I ever spent on My desk top PC, and I *BUILT* mine from junk parts.

A freind of mine fixes computers for a living. He has a small company he originally started with my Brother before they went thier separate ways. He works on Macs all the time and tells me Macs are difficult to work on, and have just as many problems, over all, as ANY OTHER MACHINE on the market.

So it's all nice that you have had luck with them and all, but I just don't see how they have any sort of superiority worth bragging about. It's just a regurgitation of mindless propaganda from my view.

[Mas Judt]

No, like I said, personal experience.

Most of the better places I've worked were all Mac based, one of my current clients are converting right now.

As far your indirect experiences, like I said, I can't judge the people you know, but I've owned and worked on a a lot more Macs and NEVER had a problem. Can't say that about the PC environments I've worked in.

If there really was a viable other option that offered the same benefits, I'd explore it, but WinTel is not it.

Now, Mac did use the 'it just works' phrase in advertising, and just like any other point of view, some probably do just repeat it. But in my case, I bring a pretty substantial amount of direct experience to this question. Then you have a folks like the technology editor at the Wall Street Journal who agree with me, as well as a steadily growing market share. Dig into the other side of the argument with the same zeal and see what you find.

Much like any other high end product, they are not the biggest in units sold, but are highly profitable.

[Mas Judt]

How do you run offices with Macs, say like a Bodyshop office when the software does not run on a Mac (Like ADP's Shoplink or Penpro estimating system)

I don't care. If you work in an industry that is PC - heavy, what can I say, you are at a disadvantage.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What I have seen, is they are no better than a PC....except that there are not a lot of viruses out there for them yet...but the ones that are there cause severe damage to files because the Mac has substandard Virus protection.

Either way, for every reliable Mac system you can show, I am sure there are just as many *At Least* of the PC variety as well.


The other thing to think about, there are a million people making PC based platforms. The quality of the system will only be as good as the quality of the builder and parts used.

Mac is the only one making Macs, so there is only one manufacturer, and only one quality standard in play. If it is a "High End" standard, then you have to compare it to PC's that are also High end. If you eliminate ALL the PC's that are not high end, then you could make a more accurate comparison.

Since I have yet to see ANY evidence that a Mac is superior when comparing a common PC, let alone a high end PC system, to the Mac, I STILL think the PC would be the better over all machine.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

As for the Virus issue,

Mac people have said they don't need to worry about viruses and software for it and all that. But the 3 people I have seen that have actually gotten viruses on this Macs, the results have been catastrophic. Virus issues on PC's normally just cause slowdowns.

You know, my PC has no virus issues at all because I set it up to deal with all that behind the scenes. I don't even see the system working....I just don't get problems.

Now that I set it up that way on my laptop, I don't get problems with that either.

In other words, both my PC units "Just work".

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't care. If you work in an industry that is PC - heavy, what can I say, you are at a disadvantage

Reply]
I don't see how, I can run just about any piece of software on the planet. I have very reliable hardware and OS. I am infinitely upgradeable and I have a system that is compatible with 90% of the business machines being used across the board, of any industry, not just my own.

With it's small market share, and narrow window of compatibility, the Mac is the one at the disadvantage.

[HtownShaolinBum]

Mac is equally as frustrating as PC. I am used to PC and whenever I try to use a Mac I want to rip my freaking head off.

People always say that video editing and music recording are so much better on a Mac. I do both on my PC easily. What can mac do that would possibly make these tasks somehow easier?

[HtownShaolinBum]

As for the Virus issue,

Mac people have said they don't need to worry about viruses and software for it ".

That is why I use XP 64-bit. There are NO FREAKIN' viruses for it. Occasionally I switch over to an alternate boot of 32 bit for pro tools, but that is it.

[jo]

What I have seen, is they are no better than a PC....

...Since I have yet to see ANY evidence that a Mac is superior when comparing a common PC, let alone a high end PC system, to the Mac, I STILL think the PC would be the better over all machine.

Let take the most glaring example...software continuity.

On a MAC, you KNOW that the general keyboard commands are the SAME for ALL applications.

There is an intuitive sense that allows MAC users to easily migrate from application to application based solely on the familiarity and continuity of general keyboard commands.

In the PeeCee world, every developer wants to reinvent the wheel with each app.


-jo

[jo]

Yeah, it's from Special Private course 1001101001001110001110 :rolleyes:

How do you run offices with Macs, say like a Bodyshop office when the software does not run on a Mac (Like ADP's Shoplink or Penpro estimating system)

Thats what PARALLELS is for sonny.

Runs WinDoze and all them buggy WinDoze apps just fine.

- jo

[Pork Chop]

A few years back I had the same problem with Linux not doing enough of what I wanted day to day and just being too much of a hassle to install, configure, and maintain.

Some bad experiences with XP64 recently have sent me running from M$ screaming. It helps that my job openly encourages running linux.

I'm finding this time around that it's a lot easier to do what I want to do. There are so many more resources available now and the software is so much more stable (not to mention updated at a lightning pace).

Aside from one MMO that I only play about one evening a week, I can basically do anything with PCLinuxOS that I would do on my old xp laptop. There's even hope for my mmo as there's already clients to play other mmos on linux (such as WoW and secondlife). In the meantime, dual booting into XP64 once a week isn't that bad.

I definitely understand the plight of folks that have to use software that's tied to a specific OS and/or software. Just try watching Netflix on anything but IE7 with Windows Media Player 11.

I think Macs can be overpriced; though I do find them nice machines- possibly lacking somewhat in the software department.

I think Windows is in a bit of a flux period right now. Lots of people are locked into software moreso than OS. The average MS user out there doesn't know if he/she should go Vista, XP, or wait for windows 7.

Was talking to a real estate agent tonight who said all real estate agents in the state are locked into a software product that's only available on 32 bit xp with IE 6. I think if MS spreads their client base out too far, across too many products, with no clear direction; they'll lose the customer loyalty they've broken so many laws to create.

[Drake]

I don't care what anyone says. The Army is NOT switching to Macs.

As for viruses, MAC and PCs (with Vista) have very similar security features. PCs get hit the most because they are simply the biggest target.

Some of our systems do use Solaris, though. But we won't talk about them. :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Thats what PARALLELS is for sonny.

Runs WinDoze and all them buggy WinDoze apps just fine

Reply]
Which is why both my Estimating system provider AND my Charting software provider told me it's junk and will give me continued problems and bugs.

The tech guy flat out told me not to waste my money on a Mac for the charting service, and added that if I have one to sell it and get a PC if I was going to be trading futures with thier system. Macs are just not reliable for windows software, especially with industry specific programs like the ones I, and many others depend on every day.

I can't afford to have an order misfire over some Obsession with incompatible machines that are known to *Barely* support the software my trading business depends on. So I went with the tried and true, proven reliable platform and built a PC.

[Yao Sing]

The other thing to think about, there are a million people making PC based platforms. The quality of the system will only be as good as the quality of the builder and parts used.

This is a good point here because most of the frustrating issues you run into on a Wintel machine are hardware compatibility and driver problems.

That's a result of being non-proprietary. I think that's the key to the whole issue. If you had one manufacturer designing the hardware (like with Apple) then the OS would be a much tighter fit.

Also, I'm sure they're out there but I haven't seen any offices running Mac's only.

Now on the virus issue I haven't seen one hit in like 10 years or so. I run McAfee and the only problems I see nowadays is from adware/spyware which is usually the cause of a general slowdown or loss of network connectivity. Run Spybot or Adaware and it's all fixed. Worse case you run sfc if you have anything hard core attacking your system.

[bakxierboxer]

Or "Mac OS problems" yields this result:

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,860,000 for Mac OS problems

Sorry, googling that query yields:
"Results 1 - 10 of about 9,820,000 for Mac OS problems. (0.14 seconds) "

OTOH, I expected much worse results from googling
"Vista OS problems"...
Not sure if I'm disappointed or not, but I got:
"Results 1 - 10 of about 2,040,000 for Vista OS problems. (0.17 seconds)"

This last was kind of "mind-boggling", since I've come to consider VISTA as
just about the worst piece of sh*t software that anyone could possibly publish.
Every last person responsible at M$ should be drawn and quartered.... for starters!

I would already be using SuSe 10.3 if I could find out how to get it to use my Belkin 7050 wireless g USB adapter.....

[CLFLPstudent]

Last time I post on this, it's just very boring.....

VISTA PROBLEMS 45 Million!!!! (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+Vista+problems&btnG=Search)

DRAKE 1 (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/us_army_install.html)

Drake 2 (http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Mac_Attack_US_Army_guarding_its_Windows_with_ OSX_12198.html)

Again, RD - those people who have had Mac problems ( were they OS X or OS 9.x?), were they buggy machines? Bad hard drives? Stepping aside from the hardware portion, OS X is (imho) far more stable than XP. The maintenance I needed to do to keep my Windows box from slowing down to a snails pace was staggering. It ( the same maintenance) is non-existent on my Mac.

As far as the mouse situation, third party mouse/keyboard makers are available for Mac OS for quite some time. <Gasp> II even use a Microsoft wireless keyboard/mouse with my Mac and guess what - it has a scroll wheel ( which is also a button, AND 2 buttons that I can configure to do whatever I want.

-David

[bakxierboxer]

Last time I post on this, it's just very boring.....

VISTA PROBLEMS 45 Million!!!! (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+Vista+problems&btnG=Search)

???????
Thenwhy, when I hit the link YOU provided does it return:
"Results 1 - 10 of about 7,880,000 for windows Vista problems. (0.21 seconds)"

That is much more in line with what I expected before, but it still says nothing at all like "45 Million".

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It ( the same maintenance) is non-existent on my Mac.

Reply]
That is because it all happens behind the scenes and you don't see it.

I actually have my PC set up this way, so I never have problems or see the defrag and spyware removal untill it's done. I configured it to tell me, and ask when it does a removal though, because I like to see what it is doing. I could probably set it up to automatically work without my attention though.

[Takuan]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

That sums it up. (nsfw-ish? bolded profanity at the top of the page, so I guess nsf-children)

[Mas Judt]

Now THAT was funny.

Still like Macs better. Mostly because they have saved me a ton of time I used to waste on jiggling with Windows just to get it to work. They do 'just work' in many ways where the PC is trying to catch up.

That is not to say you can't be happy with a good quality (say Toshiba) laptop running XP. It's clunky, but way more reliable than previous Windows and certainly than the 'new' Vista which brings you five years into the past of OSX.

From a marketing standpoint, Apple is truly unique in their early adoption of 'evangelization' as a strategy. Reminds me of how Marvel Comics does things. I know Bill Gates really envy's Apples sense of design and community, but each company has it's particular strengths.

I have nothing in particular against Microsoft. I really like talking to some of the folks there, but I find their products tend to be overly buggy and behind the times.

Apple tends to be ahead of the game. But you can't buy as many games on it as a PC, which turns off a lot of people.

Until there is a better product out there, I prefer the Apple computers.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I know Bill Gates really envy's Apples sense of design and community, but each company has it's particular strengths

Reply]
Now how in the hell would you know that? He's made more money than there are grains of sand on windows, why would he envy anyone?

[Drake]

Last time I post on this, it's just very boring.....

VISTA PROBLEMS 45 Million!!!! (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+Vista+problems&btnG=Search)

DRAKE 1 (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/us_army_install.html)

Drake 2 (http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Mac_Attack_US_Army_guarding_its_Windows_with_ OSX_12198.html)

Again, RD - those people who have had Mac problems ( were they OS X or OS 9.x?), were they buggy machines? Bad hard drives? Stepping aside from the hardware portion, OS X is (imho) far more stable than XP. The maintenance I needed to do to keep my Windows box from slowing down to a snails pace was staggering. It ( the same maintenance) is non-existent on my Mac.

As far as the mouse situation, third party mouse/keyboard makers are available for Mac OS for quite some time. <Gasp> II even use a Microsoft wireless keyboard/mouse with my Mac and guess what - it has a scroll wheel ( which is also a button, AND 2 buttons that I can configure to do whatever I want.

-David

That link was useless. No information at all. Just conjecture based off of a nonmilitary source. Show me a press release.

[Mas Judt]

I'm citing interviews I read by him and personal discussions with marketing folks in Redmond.

Again your logic eludes me. Just because someone has made a great deal of money, that means they CAN'T admire what a competitor does better than them?

Not really a logical argument.

[Mas Judt]

Honestly RD, this is a waste of time. You'll keep throwing out random links with no real context and 'personal experience' stories based on a very small unverifiable sample. And nothing else really matters to you.

So go with what you got buddy. Enjoy it. For what you do, it is probably the best tool, as the software you run requires those clunky, buggy machines.

Some people drive a crappy American made truck to work, others drive a BMW. It's the way of the world. But just because you need to drive the beater doesn't mean I have to accept that they are the same thing.

Hmmm 8,000 posts versus 45 million.

I think your answer is right there.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Look again, it was 8 HUNDRED THOUSAND mac issues vs 4 hundred thousand 5 hundred PC ones. Whoever put 45 million does not know how to count numerical places and erroneously claims "Million", when it was just "Hundred Thousand". That is clearly the fault of our educational system, and I blame Kids having calculators in class lightyears before they can do math out long hand.

I think your claim of Macs superiority is based more on emotional attachment, not reality.

It's nice that you have had good luck with them and all, but they are hardly a "Pickup to BMW" comparison. In reality, it's more like a Buick to Oldsmobile comparison. Or if you must insist on high lines, it's a BMW to Mercedez.

If you want to talk real power, then the new Quad Cores that will be powering BOTH PC *AND* Mac would be the real Ferrari and Lamborghini's of the computing world.

[Mas Judt]

You keep on believing that. It works for you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Latest Query brought back similar results for both; 4 Million+ for PC, and 7 Million+ for Mac...Mac still looses.


Results 1 - 10 of about 4,910,000 for windows Vista problems. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+Vista+problems&btnG=Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 7,960,000 for Mac OS problems. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Mac+OS+problems&btnG=Search

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Also, when you consider the fact that Mac has only a fraction of the market share, then it's % of problems per every 100 units has to be astronomical compared to the PC.

[CLFLPstudent]

Don't know why the 45 million number came up for me before, but it looks wrong now...

But anyway:
Vista Security Problems, 16.7 miilion hits, 0.43seconds (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+vista+security+problems&revid=1079365806&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=3)

Mac OS X Security problems, 9.8 Million hits, 0.26 seconds (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=Mac+OS+X+security+problems&btnG=Google+Search)

But that said, I don't take much from 'googling' these things to find answers. Much of what is written is undoubtedly duplicates.

Like I said in your last "PC Problems" thread - there's no point in arguing. But it IS funny that you had another PC problem (small problem though it may seem). And so soon after your last one. :rolleyes:

-David

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

See, here is the thing, I DIDN'T Have a PC problem. I was just expanding it's configurations (Adding a printer). It wasn't a problem, and if I had a Mac, I would have had to do the same thing....but the tool from the back falsely pretended it was a problem so he could go into his mindless, brian washed Mac promo.

As for the numbers, 16.7 PC isn't even double when compared to the 9.8 from Mac...yet PC has like 10 times the market share, so it should have 10 times more pages, not less than double...which means that per capita, Macs actually have MORE problems percentage wise; other wise the ratio would be 10-1 just at an equilibrium.

So Macs still loose.

[Mas Judt]

I think you need to take into consideration that most PC issues in the workplace are handled by IT techs and most Mac users are really home users (business use is much smaller due to the cheap PC's available and long developed software unique to some industries - although my experience is that the lower initial price point just suckers you in to years of expensive time wasting with a PC.)

Most home users are driven to the web for solutions.

I find it interesting that one tool says something stupid to you - and you find that as cause celebre' to bash something I don't think you have any experience with.

[CLFLPstudent]

Ah, but that is just 'Vista'. What is the percentage os Windows users who run Vista? Again, just because there are that many pages about this cr@p, it doesn't mean there are 9 million Mac users who have security problems ( like it doesn't mean there are 16 million Vista users with security problems either ( how many vista users are there anyway?).

But if you want to 'play' like that then:

15.1 million Win XP security problems, 0.20 sec's (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=windows+xp+security+problems&btnG=Google+Search)

and
14 million Windows 2000 security problems, 0.34 secs (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+2000+security+problems&btnG=Search)

and
2 million WinNT Security problems, 0.33 secs (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+NT+security+problems&btnG=Search)

and
20.5 million windows 98 security problems, 0.33 secs (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=windows+98+security+problems&btnG=Search)


So, by your math, that's 53.2 million Windows problems to Macs OS X 9.8 million and 7.3 million Mac OS 9 problems (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Mac+OS+9+security+problems&btnG=Search)

These numbers don't relate to anything, btw.

Thats it. I'm finished! This is almost as pointless as BFP discussions! :p

-David

[wutangforever]

Before my take, here's my background:
-BS in Computer Science
-MS in Computer Science
-Worked at an ISP in High School
-Worked as a developer for US Department of Defense
-Worked in US defense and intelligence in Security / Information Operations
-Currently develop high-performance, network calculation engines in C/C++ for a proprietary derivatives trading company

I can tell you through all my experience that the mac book pro has by FAR been the system of choice for developers and techies.

You get the power and flexibility of the BSD core...this satisfies most Linux lovers and people who want to have more control over their system. You also get the usability of being able to just plugin your ipod, camera, printer, etc, and have it just work.

You can also run parallels or vmware and it will run windows and windows apps at least as well as most PC systems.

The points about more viruses for Windows because of the market share being much higher are valid. However, there are core components, such as networking, that are much worse with Windows. Windows will drop UDP packets and report to applications and the user that it hasn't dropped anything. BSD will report accurately if it has to drop packets. Until Service Pack 2, Windows XP didn't have a firewall and had virtually no buffer overflow detection.

I used to build my own systems and even create my own distros using Linux From Scratch. Finally I got tired of my options: run windows which has a crippled shell, a *horribly* insecure web browser, and requires more memory; use linux and have a good user experience but have trouble with my ipod, my camera, and other accessories.

My solution was to get an intel mac. I currently have 3 different models in my house and have not had any problems. I can do simple things like iPhoto and iMovie, I can easily work on some personal projects using ruby on rails, and I can compile all my C/C++ code...without buying any additional software.

I'm not IN LOVE with Apple and I don't hate Microsoft. So if Windows does what you want it to, GREAT! To say that your system is infinitely upgradable is a bit much. Plus, why not get a standard set of hardware that you don't have to worry about changing individual cards and cables in?

Not trying to hate here... just trying to give my point of view.

One last thing...for those of you that bash Mac hardware, read the following:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136649-page,3-c,notebooks/article.html

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Ben

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, going that route what we see here is percentage wise, Mac are just as problem prone as anything else.

I find it interesting that one tool says something stupid to you - and you find that as cause celebre' to bash something I don't think you have any experience with.

Reply]
I am not really bashing Macs, just pointing out they are just as problem ridden as any other platform and therefore don't deserve to be worshiped by thier brain washed followers who act like they are *The* infallible God's of the computing world.

[Mas Judt]

I think you are going a little over board. No one is saying they are not a computer. No one is saying they are 100% flawless (what is?) - but in my experience they have saved me a vast amount of time thanks to the fact that they are generally highly reliable, are engineered to work well between the hardware & software, and the OS is generally a good 5-10 years ahead of whatever windows has at the moment, and is ALWAYS a lot less buggy.

The new Mac OS is the first one where I've heard IT guys say they'll wait to try it, wheras noone is interested in Vista yet, hell they just got XP stable.

For me it is hedging bets and a more robust, elegant operating system that does in fact make tasks easier and 'just works.'

The next ten years will be more interesting and offer a greater challenge as new ways to interface with computers will start to come into their own. A good long range bet is MicroSoft stock on this, as they have much more resources. In the short term I expect Apple to continue to grow and own much of the personal computing/lifestyle/ entertainment hub for the home - but MS will grab EVERYTHING else.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

and is ALWAYS a lot less buggy.

Reply]
I just have not seen this. In fact, every Mac user I have EVER seen seems to have just as many problems as a PC user....especially when trying to get non Apple software to run. On the other hand, a PC runs everything Apple does. I have Itunes playing just fine right now in fact.

In addition, there has NEVER been a problem on my desktop system that was not ultimately rooted in some sort of hardware/software configuration mistake on my part. This is due mostly to me being a self taught amature builder than anything else.

If you want to bring my laptop into it, then yes you would have some ground to stand on, but is it the PC platform itself? Or the fact that Averatec makes down right crappy laptops? I am saying it's Averatecs fault; and when I installed the same software components I have in my desktop on it, the problems vanished on the software end.....hardware is still an issue though.

But that is still not a problem with the PC platform, I could have gotten a higher end laptop to start with and not had these issues.

[Black Jack II]

The Question really is this....

Does Hellstorm use a Mac or a PC

http://www.marveldirectory.com/pictures/individuals/h_1d/hellstorm1.gif

[Yum Cha]

RD, me old matey,

Reading through this thread, reading your interpretations of the Mac reality, reading your justifications, your research, etc, only tells me one thing.

You are much better with women than you are with computers....


:D:D:D

Nostrovia Komard!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=x1-pMpuwYeU

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD, me old matey,

Reading through this thread, reading your interpretations of the Mac reality, reading your justifications, your research, etc, only tells me one thing.

You are much better with women than you are with computers....




Nostrovia Komard!

Reply]

LOL!!! :eek:

[Mas Judt]

I uh, gotta second that.

But on the other hand your kung fu has vastly improved and your brewing skills are stellar. So life can't be all bad.

Now go buy a Mac.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Now go buy a Mac.

Reply]
But I don't need a paperweight :(





















:p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

But on the other hand your kung fu has vastly improved

Reply]
You are too Kind!!

and your brewing skills are stellar

Reply]
I need to buy a few more 5 gallon fermenters. Once I have 6 total, I will be trying my hand at a straight Cherry wine. My last batch was just freezer distilled rice wine that had cherries soaked in it for a good year. I am hoping that fermenting the Cherries themselves will yeild a better beverage next time.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

6, 5 gallon fermenters makes enough Alcohol for half a years worth of internal training formula in one shot.

I can ferment 4 times in a year with them (Each ferment takes 2-3 months to finnish), so by the third ferment it will be experimentation time! I am planning Ginger Ale, Cherry wine and Root beer!

[Mas Judt]

The key is not a straight fruit infusion - you need to add a little rock sugar to bring out the flavor.

If you are trying to make kirschwasser, use fruit alcohol.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am going for a fruit wine next. It's going to be a direct fermentation of the Cherries. I am even going to get the Oak barell for the final aging on that one.

[Pork Chop]

Before my take, here's my background:
-BS in Computer Science
-MS in Computer Science
-Worked at an ISP in High School
-Worked as a developer for US Department of Defense
-Worked in US defense and intelligence in Security / Information Operations
-Currently develop high-performance, network calculation engines in C/C++ for a proprietary derivatives trading company

I can tell you through all my experience that the mac book pro has by FAR been the system of choice for developers and techies.


I bet you we know some of the same people, because we've got very similar work experience. I think the statement about the mac book pro being by far the system of choice is a bit of an exaggeration. Each and every workplace I've been to in those fields has had exactly one mac evangelist.

Mac Book Pros are nice, but I'd rather save the extra grand

Bundling your own Linux distro sounds fun.

[wutangforever]

"I think the statement about the mac book pro being by far the system of choice is a bit of an exaggeration. Each and every workplace I've been to in those fields has had exactly one mac evangelist."

I don't believe this is an exaggeration. You want to see a ton of macs? Try Defcon, or other hacker-esque style conferences. All of our developers at my financial company are getting them, and at my old defense contractor the employees were all buying macs.

Of course it is not universal, but in my experience macs were the popular choice for developers and admins. Most of those people aren't necessarily mac zealots... they want bash, cron, gcc, a ports system, etc, and also enjoy the ease of having working wireless, sound and video. I don't really care who makes it or what the window manager / gui is on top of it... I just know that right now OS X on Apple hardware is first in overall utility. Ubuntu is trying to get there but it will be a while...

I agree that it sucks to have to spend the extra $1k...although I just bought my wife a macbook for like $1399 and it is running great.

Ben

[Drake]

I've been in Intel for 8 years. Never seen a single Mac.

We do use open source stuff, though. But the admin stuff is always done with Windows.

[Pork Chop]

You want to see a ton of macs? Try Defcon, or other hacker-esque style conferences. All of our developers at my financial company are getting them, and at my old defense contractor the employees were all buying macs.


Yah according to the defcon forum, macs are popular but it's far from being unanimous:
https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=8334&page=2

If the latest Phrack's any indication, there may be other reasons for hackers picking them up:
http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=64&id=11#article

I think Ubuntu's big in Europe, and they have a full staff of in-house developers, but I think there's a reason it's called Ubnoobtu. hehe I dunno, it's nice that it "just works" in a lot of cases, but it's a bit too hands off for me as a distro.

One Laptop Per Child, the eeePC, the Google laptop and other such projects are certainly helping Linux's visibility lately. It may do a lot for Linux's market share now that people are realizing that MS has released some absolute garbage in Vista.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49293700-10,00.htm

Hrm 1399 for a Macbook to do what I'll assume is basic utility work (browsing, email, office type stuff); or 399 for an eeepc to do the same thing...

Remember, around october-november of last year people were saying that OSX Leopard may be a bigger stinker than Vista.

Like I said, I like mac, I just don't feel like shelling out that kind of money and in all the defense contractor jobs I've worked there's been maybe a couple guys per shop that were Mac fans; which was at or below the number of folks who use Linux, and well below the folks who were admittedly lazy and ran windows.