Roundhouse kick technique

[hulkout]

Is it necessary to pivot your supporting foot or is it better to just step in and plant your foot, then kick. I know everyone always says to pivot but I've seen probably hundreds of kicks done with no pivot at all. They just step in and plant their feet and then power it through. It seems safer for stability since I don't like the idea of the only contact with the ground being on the ball of my foot. It seems very easy to fall over, one little push and you're done. And also, when you spin around like in Muay Thai, you turn your back to your opponent. This seems very risky.

[Mr Punch]

Ask your teacher! :p

I'm not just being facetious, but different styles do different things. Some of them have a logic behind them, some of them don't. Personally I go with pivots, but my roundhouse kicks are crap!

BTW, since Muay Thai is one of the tried and tested badass MA do you not think it might actually not be that risky kicking the way they do if taught properly...?!

[MasterKiller]

Is it necessary to pivot your supporting foot or is it better to just step in and plant your foot, then kick. I know everyone always says to pivot but I've seen probably hundreds of kicks done with no pivot at all. They just step in and plant their feet and then power it through. It seems safer for stability since I don't like the idea of the only contact with the ground being on the ball of my foot. It seems very easy to fall over, one little push and you're done. And also, when you spin around like in Muay Thai, you turn your back to your opponent. This seems very risky.

I like to pivot.

Bas Rutten says it's not necessary.

[Fox]

I pivot myself, it allows my kick to go alonger distance.

[Judge Pen]

I pivot as well especially with a front-leg round house kick. With rear leg round-house kicks you can step into them instead of pivoting. It puts your hips in roughly the same position at the end of the kick.

[kwaichang]

There are basically 3 types of round house kicks and 3 different chambers.
1. Japanese which strikes with the ball of the foot has a lateral chamber and the toes point toward the opponent, if the opponent is in front of you, as you progress through the kick and the culmination of the kick progresses the leg is extended perpindicular to the target. prior to contact for last amount of power the foot is pivoted so it is at a ninety degree angle to the attack much like the bottom of the letter L if it were with the left leg. After contact the upper body is reverse rotated adding snap and re-chamber.

2. Korean much as above except with the Americanization of Korean arts the chamber was changed from a lateral to as in a front kick and then it rotates over and focuses past the target with full rotation of the hips and pivot foot so the toes have rotated past the point mentioned in the Japanese arts butcontinues and is pointing away from the opponent. This technique has more penetrating power but slower recovery after the attack if you miss or it is blocked. This technique has a longer lever arm but does leave you at a disadvantage if you miss.

3. Mu Thai much as above but with a looser chamber and longer lever arm and more follow through very powerful but again to recover you must spin or try to reverse the motion which is very hard to do.

Biomechnically the japanese type leaves you ready to counter with a knock out punch as opposed to primary kicking styles like Mu Thai and Korean arts. The philosophy is also different thus the kicking technique is different.

Hope I wasnt too wordy BTW in all styles at the moment of impact the whole foot shoul be making contact with the ground/floor. KC :)

[Becca]

I was taught a roundhouse very similar to the "#2" kwaichang discribed.

I pivot when being graded as my style teaches it that way. I step into it when actually using the kick. I find it easier to drop my center of gravity if it's blocked. Dropping the center of gravity is the key to recovering from this style of round-house.

[Judge Pen]

KC, I was taught a roundhouse kick very similar to # 2 as well. How do you teach it given your diverse background in MA?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like to pivot.

Bas Rutten says it's not necessary.

That's cause Bas turns his foot "out" before he throws the kick, and he's a freak.

[MasterKiller]

KC, I was taught a roundhouse kick very similar to # 2 as well. How do you teach it given your diverse background in MA?

I was taught #2 in CMA, but now only use the Muay Thai roundhouse.

[kwaichang]

What do you mean how do I teach it ? Which one or comb of kicks do I like and why ??? KC

[No_Know]

Both-ish for me...I was a shown to pivot on the ball but practicality kept the heel of my foot like within four centimetres of the ground. When I was done with the pivot which occured while I was still in motion (upper portion guard up) forward, I had my full foot (except for my arch) as support 180° opposite of the place that I was kicking (or directly behind me).

But in Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel; I learned from a tree to pivot on the Heel of my support leg. For me it was faster return to stability. Does other than mess with my Achilles' tendon (badly). And I just Like it a whole-bunch. It feels super good. Also striking area on me is the meeting of leg and foot (inside) but on the outside of the upper or top foot...around where I slapped when we did crescent kicks in Kung-Fu class.

I No_Know

[kwaichang]

Tried the heel thing at one time but felt unstable, if you are pushed prior to impact during the pivot then balance will be hard to maintain. Also with a full pivot recovery is slower. All depends on how you use the RH kick and what you use it for. Also a decreased range due to the pivot place KC

[Judge Pen]

What do you mean how do I teach it ? Which one or comb of kicks do I like and why ??? KC

I mean if you are teaching a begininer how to throw a "basic" RH kick, which of the ways that you describe do you teach them in the style that you train under now?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In kyokushin we have both the "MT round kick" and a more "snappier" kick to use at closer range, since we tend to kick high off the clinch and punching distance.

[KFNOOB]

Can you describe the Muay Thai RH Kick?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Youtube and do a search for Muay Thai Round kick.

A video is worth 1000 words ;)

[SanHeChuan]

I pivot.

When you step into you don't get enough rotation of the foot, unless you’re freakishly flexible in the knee. And if you don't get enough rotation you place undue torque on your knee that can lead to problems.

My current teacher has us rotate our foot 180 degrees, which is I am not use to. I usually only turn ~135+ degrees, but I also usually pull my kick, so I don't need full rotation in those cases.

I have never had any balance problems with that method.

I also don't like the step in because it's a obvious visual "tell" for what your about to do, giving a perceptive opponent more time to set their defense and counter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing, if you don't pivot, what happens to your knee/support leg, if you get counter -kicked there while your leg is in the air ( typical MT counter) ?

[Judge Pen]

I also don't like the step in because it's a obvious visual "tell" for what your about to do, giving a perceptive opponent more time to set their defense and counter.

It certainly can be. I will step in from time to time, but the step is disguised with other techniques. It's not the usual way for me to throw the kick, but it's in the arsenal.

I think the MT kick is easier for people with poor hip flexibility to execute than the other two methods that we've talked about.

[kwaichang]

The RH kick as I teach it is dependant upon the persons hip flexibility I teach a side chamber for those flexible and a fron chamber with roll over for those not so flexible. The problem is the 2nd kick puts alot of stress in the hip and knee. It can cause laxity of the knee over time. I start by having the person do a tight chamber with the toes of the base foot pointing toward the target or in front. as the chamber and kick progress I teach the person to pivot approximately 100-110 degrees away from the target. I respect the MT and TKD kick but remember there are 2 types of power. Driving through and snapping I prefer to combine both. If I am kicking at the head I aim one head depth past the target or 8-10 inches then I reverse rotate to set up other techniques. With this technique a fake kick is easier and more snapping/follow through power is there. Its all biomechanics and use of technique along with Physics. The MT TKD kick cover more area much like some wheel kicks or hook kicks remember the power is a culmination of the entire body at one moment and then the shorter the contact time the more power is driven into the target. KC:)

[CoolHead]

Coming from a Northern Shaolin Background, I have experienced value in
MT and TKD methods, I admittedly do signature kicking warmups from these styles also because their approach adds much to my other practice- I won't go
without it; each style seems to stress different areas and..he-hee.. They work
great against those who use a similar system..
I have been dying to get around such great mixed minds- Love your quotes, let me throw this out there-I disagree mostly about the "never" and "always" rules about chamber and not chamber because I know both will work great if the response is right- Concerning a spinning hook kick: what's your view on which is better, the chambered throw or the straight-leg-throw? I have seen both ways done lightning fast, and I have seen "strict rule" stylists slop their own rules and make it work. Imagine you have a choice; you have already looked over your shoulder and you can execute both with equal speed.

[No_Know]

One called kwaichang itdidn't work for you. O.K.

There are two types of round house as front support leg and rear support leg. I was referring to a front support leg Round house kick. One called kwaichang you mentioned getting pushed before finishing the kick--impact then balance will be hard to maintain...Then improve your Balance one might think.. And One called kwaichang mentioned it was a slower recovery. That makes sense. But I because of that have the variation of doing other than recover...go to a new kick from the support leg. Also, shift kick to, a block from one leg, if you are slower than to retract.

My pivot is completed before the kick. My knee aims. Aim passed the target to have more force and hit with follow-through before I lock-out--. Sweeps hitting the target If I get pushed I recover with a hop, my kicking leg is set to return to rear support. Or I ready for impact and chose how to recover/get-up or attack on the way down (to keep them back some more than to actually damage.

No_Know

One called kwaichang I find spinning on the heel is so close to center of the leg line to the hip, off-balance is much less.

Kicking to the air has one set of balance issues. Landing a kick has it's set of balance issues. What kick has No balance issues?

I hope you get the answers that help, on your topic.

I No_Know

[martialartspeon]

I pivot. I feel that I telegraph less with pivoting compared to stepping in. Kicks are generally easy to see best take every advantage one can.

[kwaichang]

Its all about set up but technically there are 2 types of RH kicks really, the follow through and the snapping I dont really have balance issues but some beginners might so the pivot allows for more support than not. The further the pivot the more reach and support. What one does should be tailored to that person over time, it might change, also I do not prefer the straight leg kicks they are too easily countered. KC

[SanHeChuan]

I prefer the front chamber because it is a "Fake out". They don't immediately know that a round house is coming. But I almost only use the Front chamber for RHK's aimed at the head, and I snap it.

For body and leg kicks I prefer the follow though method and chamber at an angle that allows me to really drive my hips into the kick. No more than 45 degrees off center.

I don't normally use RHK's to the body, because of the grab-ability factor.


Everything is conditionally to it's own proper time and place, there are no universal techniques that always work, under all conditions.

[Judge Pen]

I prefer the front chamber because it is a "Fake out". They don't immediately know that a round house is coming. But I almost only use the Front chamber for RHK's aimed at the head, and I snap it.

Everything is conditionally to it's own proper time and place, there are no universal techniques that always work, under all conditions.

It is a good fake out, and with the front chamber you could also be throwing two or three different kicks with the same inital motion.

Also the front chamber doubles well as a leg check/block.

[kwaichang]

The problem with the front chamber is it does not have the power of the "side" chambered RH kick true one can throw multiple kicks from that chamber but if you do decide to throw the RH kick the angle of attack is not as sharp as otherwise . That said the kick itself can be jammed and no kicks thrown that in my Humble Opinion is the problem with that kick How do the so called "traditional Chinese Martial Artists throw a RH kick.???? KC

[Becca]

One thing, if you don't pivot, what happens to your knee/support leg, if you get counter -kicked there while your leg is in the air ( typical MT counter) ?
drop your center of gravity. you'll usually end up taking the counter on the meaty part of your thigh, with still smarts like he!!, but not damaging like taking it on a joint. You can also abort the kick and step in. Which can leave you open to elbows and knees, but it's fighting. You're bound to be open to something at some time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

drop your center of gravity. you'll usually end up taking the counter on the meaty part of your thigh, with still smarts like he!!, but not damaging like taking it on a joint. You can also abort the kick and step in. Which can leave you open to elbows and knees, but it's fighting. You're bound to be open to something at some time.

Hmmm. no I mean, what happens WHEN you take a kick on the supporting leg and your foot is not pivoted?
If the toes are pointed AWAY from your opponent that is one thing.
If they are pointed at a 90, that is another and if they are even less than 90, that is another thing too.
I would think that the toes pointed away at 180 or as close as possible would be better, no?

[Becca]

Hmmm. no I mean, what happens WHEN you take a kick on the supporting leg and your foot is not pivoted?
If the toes are pointed AWAY from your opponent that is one thing.
If they are pointed at a 90, that is another and if they are even less than 90, that is another thing too.
I would think that the toes pointed away at 180 or as close as possible would be better, no?
Not quite getting what you meen? A step-in still has your foot turned 90` from you body, you just step into it rather than planing the suppot leg then pivoting. Your knee is very vulerable wile transfering your weight from the rear leg to the front leg, but once the weight is transfered, it's reletively easy to protect the support knee. A simple half moon jump will get your weight back off the exposed knee before damage can occure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are Two "typical" MT counters to a round kick:
Kick the supporting leg on the "inside" which means you will be making contact with the supporting legs "back" and kick the supporting leg on the "outside", which would be the supporting legs "front".
My question was the potential injuries and how the pivot foot effects that.

[Becca]

I get that. The key to the step-in vs. step then pivot, is where you are when the counter connects. It's a' goin' a' hurt no mater what. That's the nature of a MT counter. But if it is comming from the outside, you can drop your weight and catching on the meaty, and tensed, outer thigh. This friggin hurts and the muscle could spasm, but it isn't as bad as a blown out knee.

If it's an inside counter you could either step in and risk the elbows or try a half moon jump. moon jumps are very good when they work, but that is only about 50% of the time in my experience.

In any of these senarios, the kick needs to be aborted or completed before the counter makes contact.

edit: as for injuries, you really, really don't want to get hit with only part of your weight on the front foot while it is at a 90` angle from you body. One of the suposedly "useless" stance exersizes, twisted stance, helps train you to sink fast if you see something comming for the knee of your lead leg.

[Judge Pen]

edit: as for injuries, you really, really don't want to get hit with only part of your weight on the front foot while it is at a 90` angle from you body. One of the suposedly "useless" stance exersizes, twisted stance, helps train you to sink fast if you see something comming for the knee of your lead leg.

You mean there's hidden applications in stance work? Who would have thunk it? :p

[MasterKiller]

I get that. The key to the step-in vs. step then pivot, is where you are when the counter connects. It's a' goin' a' hurt no mater what. That's the nature of a MT counter. But if it is comming from the outside, you can drop your weight and catching on the meaty, and tensed, outer thigh. This friggin hurts and the muscle could spasm, but it isn't as bad as a blown out knee.

If it's an inside counter you could either step in and risk the elbows or try a half moon jump. moon jumps are very good when they work, but that is only about 50% of the time in my experience.

In any of these senarios, the kick needs to be aborted or completed before the counter makes contact.

edit: as for injuries, you really, really don't want to get hit with only part of your weight on the front foot while it is at a 90` angle from you body. One of the suposedly "useless" stance exersizes, twisted stance, helps train you to sink fast if you see something comming for the knee of your lead leg.

You should block kicks on the front of your thigh, not the outside meaty part, whether it's tensed or not. The nerve the attacker is aiming for (in Muay Thai/San Da) runs down the outer thigh--why give them a gift and expose it?

Turn your knee TOWARD the kick, not away from it. This works for both the inside and outside kick, and leaves you in a perfect position to counter with your hands.

I like to counter the roundkick with a hard right cross, but that's just me.:p

[Becca]

I know it's best to block with the front of the thigh. But I have never had anyone seriously counter my roundhouse slow enough to set up the block that way. If the front of my thigh was facing their check, it was because they caught me off balance, literally and figuratively.

dam... I need a camcorder to show you what I meen. :(

[kwaichang]

I wouldnt turn my front of my leg into the kick you are asking for far more injuries than turning away from the kick. Most of the muscles and tendons are used to prevent Hyper extension. also I would rather have less than more weight on the leg also there is no superficial nerve in the outer area of the thigh , I think you are talking about the IT Band and some GB pressure points or other pressure points. Imagine stance training and pressure points while talking about fighting. What is this world coming to. KC

[MasterKiller]

I wouldnt turn my front of my leg into the kick you are asking for far more injuries than turning away from the kick. Most of the muscles and tendons are used to prevent Hyper extension. also I would rather have less than more weight on the leg also there is no superficial nerve in the outer area of the thigh , I think you are talking about the IT Band and some GB pressure points or other pressure points. Imagine stance training and pressure points while talking about fighting. What is this world coming to. KC

Both Cung Le and LKFMDC show this technique on their DVDs. I use it effectively and teach my guys to do it as well.

[Lucas]

Ill do with and without stepping in. I generally pivot to 180 degree. Depends on the set up. My most successfull RH kicks have generally always been after a feignt of some sort.

One of my best track records with RH kicks to the body have followed a feignt with a left RH kick to the body, droping into a forward 45degree plant and snapping with the right (jumping into the kick as the left drops, saves time). probably 80-85% success ratio of all the times ive used it in sparring practices. Plus its super fun.

On average though I like to aim my RH kicks to your legs. Calf/thigh in sparring, with the intention of striking during a weight bearing moment on that leg, which in a more realistic scenario would be the knee.

Edit: I pivot on the ball of my foot.

[kwaichang]

Which technique do you speak of the kick or the positiopn of the leg in the kick/? There are no significant superficial nerves in the lateral thigh area. There atre PP's though aim approx 5-7 inches above the knee on the lateral thigh and see what happens KC

[Becca]

Which technique do you speak of the kick or the positiopn of the leg in the kick/? There are no significant superficial nerves in the lateral thigh area. There atre PP's though aim approx 5-7 inches above the knee on the lateral thigh and see what happens KC
LOL! I thought that, too... then I got a tattoo there. Trust me, there's lots of superficial nerves in the lateral thigh.

My main problem with catching a counter on the front thigh of my support leg is that the front of my thigh is on the flank stability-wise, if you know what I meen. I'm on one leg bracing for the impact of pushing through a kick. It's just not safe for the joints to allow a counter to connect cross wise to how your body is braced. You can injure your knee from the front/back as easily as from the side.

[mkriii]

I like to pivot.

Bas Rutten says it's not necessary.

Well we all know Bas Rutten is the authority so we shouldn't go against him.

[MasterKiller]

Well we all know Bas Rutten is the authority so we shouldn't go against him.

We can't all get our training techniques from old Kung Fu movies, now can we?

[mkriii]

You should block kicks on the front of your thigh, not the outside meaty part, whether it's tensed or not. The nerve the attacker is aiming for (in Muay Thai/San Da) runs down the outer thigh--why give them a gift and expose it?

Turn your knee TOWARD the kick, not away from it. This works for both the inside and outside kick, and leaves you in a perfect position to counter with your hands.

I like to counter the roundkick with a hard right cross, but that's just me.:p

Why would you block a kick with your thigh? Why not just not be there when the kick get to it's intended target. Simply put, just move.

[mkriii]

No we can't but there are some techniques that are worth while in those old kung fu movies. Haven't you ever caught a broadsword blade with your chop sticks before?

[mkriii]

Maybe we can all learn how to do those beautiful flips that Rutten does when he wins a fight. Bas Rutten.....blaaaa!!!! He's as old as Tank Abbott or Ken Shamrock.

[MasterKiller]

Why would you block a kick with your thigh? Why not just not be there when the kick get to it's intended target. Simply put, just move.

If you move, what did you gain? You just give the guy another chance to do it again, and maybe this time he hits you anyway.

If you take the kick, you can close the gap and counter.

[mkriii]

Well lets look at that question.....I gained no pain by avoiding the kick for one thing. I avoided a possible broken leg for another thing. Why not close the gap as soon as he plants that kicking leg down. Thats when he has less time to react to a counter attack and is slightly off balance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys realize that my question was about getting kicked in the supporting leg WHILE the other leg is "suspended" right?

[MasterKiller]

You guys realize that my question was about getting kicked in the supporting leg WHILE the other leg is "suspended" right?

I figured that out this morning. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I figured that out this morning. :p

LOL
I thought there might have been some confusion when people started saying to turn the thigh or move out of the way.

[MasterKiller]

Well lets look at that question.....I gained no pain by avoiding the kick for one thing. I avoided a possible broken leg for another thing. Why not close the gap as soon as he plants that kicking leg down. Thats when he has less time to react to a counter attack and is slightly off balance.

If you move out of range to avoid the kick, you usually can't get back in range before the opponent recovers.

[Lucas]

I would think that the toes pointed away at 180 or as close as possible would be better, no?

Do you mean to tell me sir, that you do not enjoy broken knees?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you mean to tell me sir, that you do not enjoy broken knees?

Having had a torn knee cap while playing football ( soccer to you pussies), no I don't.

[kwaichang]

Becca, read my post again I said SIGNIFICANT superficial nerves. The primary nerves of the leg is the femoral and sciatica and obturator and they are deep also the superficial ones are sensory primarily not Motor. To do real damage hit the pressure points of the leg. Ie the IT band. Do your anatomy 1st.
To answer the Original question.
If I had to choose how I would want to be hit in the knee while weight bearing it would be from the rear 1st, from the inside 2nd from the outside or laterally 3rd and from the front 4th. Worst would be from the lateral front. KC

[mkriii]

Having had a torn knee cap while playing football ( soccer to you pussies), no I don't.


Typical response from a Canadian or from the English. Do you hold you little finger out also while you sip your tea? Soccer sucks. You run run and run the whole game and then the final score is one to zero. Or zero to zero. Thats exciting (not). Try a real sport like collage wrestling or even high school wrestling. Thats a rough sport.

[Becca]

Well lets look at that question.....I gained no pain by avoiding the kick for one thing. I avoided a possible broken leg for another thing. Why not close the gap as soon as he plants that kicking leg down. Thats when he has less time to react to a counter attack and is slightly off balance.
The counter is what "he's" giving you as soon as "he" sees you plant your leg to execute a kick... The question is not if you get kicked. When actually sparring, you will get hit. The question is what kind of injuries you might expect with a pivot style roundhouse kick vs. a set-though style roundhouse kick.

[Becca]

Becca, read my post again I said SIGNIFICANT superficial nerves. The primary nerves of the leg is the femoral and sciatica and obturator and they are deep also the superficial ones are sensory primarily not Motor. To do real damage hit the pressure points of the leg. Ie the IT band. Do your anatomy 1st.
To answer the Original question.
If I had to choose how I would want to be hit in the knee while weight bearing it would be from the rear 1st, from the inside 2nd from the outside or laterally 3rd and from the front 4th. Worst would be from the lateral front. KC
To each thier own. I would rather not risk hyper extending my knee that way.

As to the nerve issue. The outer thigh may not have the critical motor control nerves, but they do have signifigant nerves. Sensory pain may not be as long term disabling as motor nerve pain, but in a fight, long term is not the (only) focus. a couple good whaps to the outside thigh with a MT roundhouse, you are going to flinch every time your opponant looks like they are setting up another...

[kwaichang]

With out Motor nerve you cant move your leg so you are a sitting duck. KC

[Lucas]

But the real important part about getting kicked on your weight bearing knee, is how fast you can grab some dirt once you are down and project that into your enemies eyes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical response from a Canadian or from the English. Do you hold you little finger out also while you sip your tea? Soccer sucks. You run run and run the whole game and then the final score is one to zero. Or zero to zero. Thats exciting (not). Try a real sport like collage wrestling or even high school wrestling. Thats a rough sport.

Don't recall anyone coming at me with steel "spikes" when I wrestled...:D

I played Rugby, Footbal, American Footbal ( well, canadian anyways) and of course Hockey.
They all have their injury issues, but in my view, the most telling sport is full contact syncronized swimming !

[Becca]

With out Motor nerve you cant move your leg so you are a sitting duck. KC
As many times as you tell other to READ YOUR POst, I would think you would bother to read the post you are critisizing.



... Sensory pain may not be as long term disabling as motor nerve pain, but in a fight, long term is not the (only) focus....

I'm not in the habit of maiming my training partners. With as much respect as you seem to draw around here, I'm a bit shocked that you seem to think seriously injuring others for training is acceptable.

[kwaichang]

Are we talking about training ??? Then pull the technique if not then go for it. You are the one that needs to read the post it was informative and said nothing about maiming a training partner. KC

[Becca]

Train to pull the technique and you'll pull it when you need to make it count. What's wrong with just being respectful of your training partners? Or in your case voluntary victims?

[kwaichang]

:cool:What is a Volutary Vicoms ?????? I personally can shoot holes in the old rumor that if you pull techniques you will pull them in a real situation. That is Bull #$@^.
I have heard that for 35 years and know for a fact it is not true. It is a rumor started by those who want to kick or hit less experienced people. I dont think maiming is acceptable but I thought we were talking about fighting something you seem to know nothing about. KC;)

[SifuAbel]

Wow, this thread degenerated nicely and you can't even blame me for it. I see a trend here.

[MasterKiller]

Train to pull the technique and you'll pull it when you need to make it count. What's wrong with just being respectful of your training partners? Or in your case,:eek::rolleyes: volutary vicoms?

DO you break a lot of arms during armbar drills? You have to pull just about EVERY technique to train it. :rolleyes:

[Becca]

:cool:What is a Volutary Vicoms ?????? I personally can shoot holes in the old rumor that if you pull techniques you will pull them in a real situation. That is Bull #$@^.
I have heard that for 35 years and know for a fact it is not true. It is a rumor started by those who want to kick or hit less experienced people. I dont think maiming is acceptable but I thought we were talking about fighting something you seem to know nothing about. KC;)
Yes, you got me for not taking the time to write my post elsewere so I could spellcheck it, then copying it over here. Very good. I'm proud of you.

You personally don’t believe that pulling punches during training causes a person to pull them when it counts. I do. But is it still a rumor if it is scientifically proven? Or is it a case of you refusing to let go of opinions that have been proven wrong?

[Becca]

DO you break a lot of arms during armbar drills? You have to pull just about EVERY technique to train it. :rolleyes:


I’ll go a bit further with my theory than “Train to pull a technique and you will pullit when you need it.”

Training to pull a technique will teach you to pull that technique when and if you ever need to use it “live". This is not a bad thing. It is not a good thing. It is a simple fact, with any inflection being added by the way we apply it to a situation.

Do I pull arm bars when I train them? Yes. But then, I can’t really think of a single actual situation where I would need to dislocate someone’s shoulder deliberately, either in training or real life. Not even in a self-defense capacity, since that would most certainly send be to jail for excessive force, even if they guy had been threatening me with a fire arm.

Do I train to pull punches or kicks? No, not unless I'm sparring someone who has never seen that technique. I train to use control when I throw out a technique, but that is not the same as pulling it. Pulling a technique limits the power of a strike, true. Control can also limit the power of a strike, but it also encompasses focus, speed and intent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very few people spar full contact on a regular basis, even pro boxers don't.
hard contact yes, full, no.
Sure you may have one or two session per week where you will, but the majority is contact that is hard enough to be realistic without trying to paste someone through the ring.

[Judge Pen]

Training to pull a technique will teach you to pull that technique when and if you ever need to use it “live". This is not a bad thing. It is not a good thing. It is a simple fact, with any inflection being added by the way we apply it to a situation.

Based upon what objective foundation? It may be a fact for you, but how can you say it is a fact for me, KC, MK or anyone else? You can say it, but it doesn't make it a fact (just an assertion based on your experience alone).

[Becca]

Based upon what objective foundation? It may be a fact for you, but how can you say it is a fact for me, KC, MK or anyone else? You can say it, but it doesn't make it a fact (just an assertion based on your experience alone).
I also stated that this was my theory. I even when on to explain a bit of the difference between "pulling a punch" and "using control" as it relates to my theory.

[Lucas]

In the past I have had my ribs broken twice in sparring. While wearing a chest protector both times. The first time I finished my match, then sparred 2 more 3 minute rounds. The first instance I told no one in an attempt to test myself. The second it was only the one match. I learned a lot about myself in those few minutes.

Another thing I learned is the importance of control. I still wouldnt ask my sparring partners to pull their techniques, but I would certainly ask of them a larger amount of control.

I think it is important, in a free sparring format, to not pull our techniques, but to use control instead. Controled sparring however, especially regarding beginners, pulling your techniques can aid in the learning process. How many beginners do you know with good control, especially regarding kicks.

Again it comes down to there being a right time and place for everything.

The only time I consider pulling a technique of any use is when you are first learning to apply that technique in a sparring format. Once you become comfortable with the usage, and understand the technique, then begin with controlling yourself rather than pulling the technique.

1 stage at a time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the past I have had my ribs broken twice in sparring. While wearing a chest protector both times. The first time I finished my match, then sparred 2 more 3 minute rounds. The first instance I told no one in an attempt to test myself. The second it was only the one match. I learned a lot about myself in those few minutes.

Another thing I learned is the importance of control. I still wouldnt ask my sparring partners to pull their techniques, but I would certainly ask of them a larger amount of control.

I think it is important, in a free sparring format, to not pull our techniques, but to use control instead. Controled sparring however, especially regarding beginners, pulling your techniques can aid in the learning process. How many beginners do you know with good control, especially regarding kicks.

Again it comes down to there being a right time and place for everything.

The only time I consider pulling a technique of any use is when you are first learning to apply that technique in a sparring format. Once you become comfortable with the usage, and understand the technique, then begin with controlling yourself rather than pulling the technique.

1 stage at a time.

I can tell you this, there are probably more injures when you are padded than when you go with less padding, guys tend to drill harder when their is padding involved.

[Lucas]

I can tell you this, there are probably more injures when you are padded than when you go with less padding, guys tend to drill harder when their is padding involved.

I hear that.

NOW what about those guys, and we all know at least one, that never pull or control their techniques.

They come out from the beginning with full force and never slow down. What is up with those guy?

Do they simply never understand control, or do they just not really care? Combination of both? Or both depending

[MasterKiller]

I hear that.

NOW what about those guys, and we all know at least one, that never pull or control their techniques.

They come out from the beginning with full force and never slow down. What is up with those guy?

Do they simply never understand control, or do they just not really care? Combination of both? Or both depending

I don't know. I refuse to train with those kind of guys.

[Lucas]

I don't know. I refuse to train with those kind of guys.

lol, word.

There was this one kid I used to like sparring with who was like that. He had about 6 years in and was a natural, but just simply had no control.

The only thing fun about sparring him was practicing defense. It gives your sparring a "realistic" feeling, when you know the guy is trying to KO you and gets his jollys off when he hurts you.

Eventually, I slowly just stopped sparring with him though. I personally watched that guy break 4 peoples bones.

ANNOYING>

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hear that.

NOW what about those guys, and we all know at least one, that never pull or control their techniques.

They come out from the beginning with full force and never slow down. What is up with those guy?

Do they simply never understand control, or do they just not really care? Combination of both? Or both depending

***** issues.
Unresolved aggression with their fathers, that sort of thing.
Best to just KO'd them, its for their own good.
You may take it to the next level and pull down their shorts/pants after taking them out, to expose their insignificant ***** to the world.
Somethings just have to be done.

[Lucas]

***** issues.
Unresolved aggression with their fathers, that sort of thing.
Best to just KO'd them, its for their own good.
You may take it to the next level and pull down their shorts/pants after taking them out, to expose their insignificant ***** to the world.
Somethings just have to be done.

LOL funnything is, one time he didnt have his draw strings tied, and i accidentally pulled his pants down when i checked his kick. gotta love the feiyus soles

[kwaichang]

Definition: Pulling a technique: the art of measuring the amount of impact at any moment of the technique sometimes by controling the amount of depth of the technique itself. It is full speed and with full focus ; so as to hit those "useless" nerves on the lateral thigh:eek:, Martial arts have been trained this way for
1000's of years with no detrimental value to the art itself , except spairing the life of the training partner. KC:)

[Becca]

Fine, you just stated that you consider control to be part of pulling a technique. I've stated several times now that I consider pulling to be a part of control. Like 99.9999999999% of all board disagreements, this has boiled down to semantics. The whole squabble on what part of the thigh to strike is personal preference. Shall we at least agree that we have different preferences at least?

[Judge Pen]

Fine, you just stated that you consider control to be part of pulling a technique. I've stated several times now that I consider pulling to be a part of control. Like 99.9999999999% of all board disagreements, this has boiled down to semantics. The whole squabble on what part of the thigh to strike is personal preference. Shall we at least agree that we have different preferences at least?
Agreed. :p

[SevenStar]

I hear that.

NOW what about those guys, and we all know at least one, that never pull or control their techniques.

They come out from the beginning with full force and never slow down. What is up with those guy?

Do they simply never understand control, or do they just not really care? Combination of both? Or both depending

there are really only two ways to deal with those people:

1. don't spar them
2. hurt them

I have found that people like that (at least ones i have encountered) back off when you stop pulling punches also.

[unkokusai]

Typical response from a Canadian or from the English. Do you hold you little finger out also while you sip your tea? Soccer sucks. You run run and run the whole game and then the final score is one to zero. Or zero to zero. Thats exciting (not). Try a real sport like collage wrestling or even high school wrestling. Thats a rough sport.



LOL! That was an excellent post!

[Mr Punch]

Try a real sport like collage wrestling or even high school wrestling. Thats a rough sport.Yeah right, art school f ag! Like what's so rough? Having trouble arranging the right balance of photos and newspaper clippages? :p

I hear wrestling makes you stoopid... so stoopid you can't even spell your hobbies.

I like co cking, wakking in the countryside and marital arts.

Anyway, back to the subject...

I don't like getting out the way, cos it takes a long time to get back in, during which time he could easily regain his balance. Checking the kick is far better value for money.

And to me, pulling is one form of control: they're not that different.

[SevenStar]

Yeah right, art school f ag! Like what's so rough? Having trouble arranging the right balance of photos and newspaper clippages? :p

I hear wrestling makes you stoopid... so stoopid you can't even spell your hobbies.

I like co cking, wakking in the countryside and marital arts.

Anyway, back to the subject...

I don't like getting out the way, cos it takes a long time to get back in, during which time he could easily regain his balance. Checking the kick is far better value for money.

And to me, pulling is one form of control: they're not that different.

kill two birds with one stone and do both. When you get out of the way, move the direction the kick is travelling and catch the kick, trapping his leg as it comes in. Now, you've gotten out of the way and his balance is severely compromised because you are holding his leg.

[SevenStar]

Well lets look at that question.....I gained no pain by avoiding the kick for one thing. I avoided a possible broken leg for another thing. Why not close the gap as soon as he plants that kicking leg down. Thats when he has less time to react to a counter attack and is slightly off balance.

one of the most commonly used follow ups from the roundhouse kick is throwing a back kick as soon as you plant that foot. You may run right into that back kick and get your wind knocked out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have always been against step backing, all it does is give your opponent another crack at you.
Very few MA advocate stepping back as a counter to anything really.
Its usually step in on an angle or step "out" on an angle.
Stepping back ( angle or not) is really an "****, not ready for an attack, lets retreat and regroup", type of thing.

[SevenStar]

I wouldnt turn my front of my leg into the kick you are asking for far more injuries than turning away from the kick. Most of the muscles and tendons are used to prevent Hyper extension. also I would rather have less than more weight on the leg also there is no superficial nerve in the outer area of the thigh , I think you are talking about the IT Band and some GB pressure points or other pressure points. Imagine stance training and pressure points while talking about fighting. What is this world coming to. KC


when you turn the leg into the kick, you do a few things:

1. you are getting your sciatic nerve outta the way - you don't wanna get hit there and your leg get all numb...

2. you open your hips, which takes away the possibility of turning you. lift your leg straight up and have someone hit the outside of your leg. What happens? your body turns. quite obviously then, a hard strike can turn you far more than you would like it to. Now, turn your thigh or shin INTO the oncoming strike. What happens? your body doesn't turn.

3. by turning into the kick, the shin and knee are now shields. It hurts to kick those.

In muay thai, I have never been taught any other way. In TMA though, yeah, they just told us to pick up the leg. I prefer the former.

[SevenStar]

I have always been against step backing, all it does is give your opponent another crack at you.
Very few MA advocate stepping back as a counter to anything really.
Its usually step in on an angle or step "out" on an angle.
Stepping back ( angle or not) is really an "****, not ready for an attack, lets retreat and regroup", type of thing.

no, not stepping back. stepping laterally. I never advocate stepping back against a roundhouse. A teep, sure, but not a roundhouse.

[SevenStar]

I pivot.

When you step into you don't get enough rotation of the foot, unless you’re freakishly flexible in the knee. And if you don't get enough rotation you place undue torque on your knee that can lead to problems.

My current teacher has us rotate our foot 180 degrees, which is I am not use to. I usually only turn ~135+ degrees, but I also usually pull my kick, so I don't need full rotation in those cases.

I have never had any balance problems with that method.

I also don't like the step in because it's a obvious visual "tell" for what your about to do, giving a perceptive opponent more time to set their defense and counter.


The step in...well... angle step, cuz you don't step straight in - has a dual purpose. One is to aid with power in the kick. The other - And MK mentioned it already, somewhat - is to avoid a counter. MK said that his favorite counter to the roundhouse was the cross. That is a devastating counter and you are wide open for it if you don't step offline when you throw the kick.

Also remember that the roundhouse, like anyother power technique, needs to be set up. Whether you step or pivot, any idiot can counter it if you throw the kick by itself. the step should be used in conjunction with something to set it up.

[SevenStar]

I pivot. I feel that I telegraph less with pivoting compared to stepping in. Kicks are generally easy to see best take every advantage one can.

a spinning backfist is easy to see. So is a cross. you have to set them up.

[SevenStar]

I pivot myself, it allows my kick to go alonger distance.


but the further the distance, the less power... that applies whether you pivot or not.

[Lucas]

when you turn the leg into the kick, you do a few things:

1. you are getting your sciatic nerve outta the way - you don't wanna get hit there and your leg get all numb...

2. you open your hips, which takes away the possibility of turning you. lift your leg straight up and have someone hit the outside of your leg. What happens? your body turns. quite obviously then, a hard strike can turn you far more than you would like it to. Now, turn your thigh or shin INTO the oncoming strike. What happens? your body doesn't turn.

3. by turning into the kick, the shin and knee are now shields. It hurts to kick those.

In muay thai, I have never been taught any other way. In TMA though, yeah, they just told us to pick up the leg. I prefer the former.

what about picking the leg up AND turning into the kick.

Ive had some fun turning my leg opposite of the leg they are kicking at while picking it up. Unless the guys shins are conditioned you usually end up with a chuckle.

I know that leaves you comprimized, but its fun.

Ive also seen defenders break the attackers leg like that, in MT fights, though ive never trained MT.

[SevenStar]

what about picking the leg up AND turning into the kick.

of course. but the posts I was responding to were referring to just taking it on the leg.


Ive had some fun turning my leg opposite of the leg they are kicking at while picking it up. Unless the guys shins are conditioned you usually end up with a chuckle.

yeah, we teach that also. Not as much though.

[kwaichang]

Question ??? if you wanted to kick the Sciatic nerve where exactly would you kick ??? You all seem to be talking about it. KC

[Lucas]

on the yellow line :p

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Gray832.png

[kwaichang]

Well that isnt the front of the leg now is it. Nor is it shallow as a matter of fact the sciatic nerve originates in the Low Back and splits in the thigh area and sooner so again I ask where is the sciatic nerve the most vulnerable and most shallow?? And where would YOU kick it KC Hint I am going to kick your Butt haha

[kwaichang]

The original ????? Is what not blocking but when you get kicked on the supporting leg during the kick KC

[sanjuro_ronin]

The original ????? Is what not blocking but when you get kicked on the supporting leg during the kick KC

Yeah well....things get lost in the shuffle ;)

[Becca]

And to that, I submit that getting kicked on the supporting leg could, depending on what direction the check comes in from, get you in the sciatic nerve. And this su,cks - you drop like a sack of potatos, can't get back up and have no idea why because the pain don't start right away. That starts with horrible pins-and-needles. If you'r lucky, it didn't bruise the nerve, if not you are not going to be walking much for at least a week. :(

And yes, a MT trained fighter will go after the nerve. It takes repeted blows to the back/outer theigh to get it. Kung fu usually go after the sciatic in the calf area, AKA "being ham strug."

[Judge Pen]

I've had my leg go numb from getting kicked in the butt. Weird sensation. It got better quickly, but I had to take a few moments to let it recover. It was like hitting your funny bone.

[MasterKiller]

I blocked a kick with my shin one time (was even wearing shin guards) and couldn't stand on it for about an hour.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I blocked a kick with my shin one time (was even wearing shin guards) and couldn't stand on it for about an hour.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, blocking always hurts if the strike comes in with power.

[SevenStar]

I blocked a kick with my shin one time (was even wearing shin guards) and couldn't stand on it for about an hour.

no doubt. it can hurt.

[SevenStar]

Well that isnt the front of the leg now is it. Nor is it shallow as a matter of fact the sciatic nerve originates in the Low Back and splits in the thigh area and sooner so again I ask where is the sciatic nerve the most vulnerable and most shallow?? And where would YOU kick it KC Hint I am going to kick your Butt haha

I'm lost now... who said it was in the front?

[Becca]

I think he's confused. I mentioned that I didn't like to take hits on the front thigh of my support leg right after stating that there was plenty of superficial nerves in the lateral thigh. post# 41.

[kwaichang]

Here is the response I am searching for. I have never seen a fighter good enough in MMA or MT to kick the sciatic nerve. It is too deep in the leg to be attacked independently and damage done to it. The Sciatic nerve does not extend into the lower leg below the knee it splits prior to that and becomes the tibial and deep peroneal prior to that it becomes the Femoral and Obturator If you want to call it the Sciatic thats OK but you are wrong.
The only one to "GET" it was JP the nerve is best attacked where the hollow of the glutes are at or below the sciatic notch. The nerve it self is so small in diameter that I feel what you are doing is traumatizing the surrounding Muculature and causing a charley horse effect . Also if you are fighting and you turn your thigh into the counter kick sure you will protect the IT Band but put your knee at jeopardy , your choice though. KC

[SevenStar]

Here is the response I am searching for. I have never seen a fighter good enough in MMA or MT to kick the sciatic nerve. It is too deep in the leg to be attacked independently and damage done to it. The Sciatic nerve does not extend into the lower leg below the knee it splits prior to that and becomes the tibial and deep peroneal prior to that it becomes the Femoral and Obturator If you want to call it the Sciatic thats OK but you are wrong.

1. kicking below the knee is NOT what we are referring to.

2. the sciatic is used as a reference point. The heart punch I'd imagine was named with a similar idea in mind. the liver punch may have been also, since some of that is actually under the ribcage. Regardless, you feel pain.


The only one to "GET" it was JP the nerve is best attacked where the hollow of the glutes are at or below the sciatic notch. The nerve it self is so small in diameter that I feel what you are doing is traumatizing the surrounding Muculature and causing a charley horse effect . Also if you are fighting and you turn your thigh into the counter kick sure you will protect the IT Band but put your knee at jeopardy , your choice though. KC

keep the knee raised or bent.

[kwaichang]

yOU CANNOT BEND THE HIP AND KNEE IF YOU ARE STANDING ON IT TO KICK WITH THE OTHER LEG. KC

[monji112000]

I like to pivot.

Bas Rutten says it's not necessary.

Bas has massive power in his kicks. I honestly think its a matter of preference. My round kicks suck so don't listen to me.

[Drake]

Bas has massive power in his kicks. I honestly think its a matter of preference. My round kicks suck so don't listen to me.

Where do you have trouble? Mine is maintaining control after execution of the kick. Leg just doesn't want to stop after the target.

[mkriii]

If you don't pivot the foot when doing that kick it appears to me that you would be putting undue stress on the leg because your twisting your leg from the ankle up to get that rotation needed to throw that round kick to compensate for not pivoting the foot. It looks like that it would hurt your knee in the long run. You have to have that rotation in order to get the correct angle for your foot for it to be a roundhouse kick. Am I explaining myself clearly.....lol???

[monji112000]

Where do you have trouble? Mine is maintaining control after execution of the kick. Leg just doesn't want to stop after the target.

LOL I'm not even sure about the kick (so don't listen to me really).

Why stop after the target? why not just kick through it?

I have less pressure on my knee if I pre-turn my foot and don't use the balls of my feet.

[SevenStar]

yOU CANNOT BEND THE HIP AND KNEE IF YOU ARE STANDING ON IT TO KICK WITH THE OTHER LEG. KC

Okay, we're back to the base leg now... I think that may be where confusion is. the discussion went from base leg to the blocking leg at various points... the kick to the sciatic is NOT kicking the base leg - it's a target for a leg kick on a leg that is planted. (Now I see why you mentioned kicking below the new a few posts up)

If you are doing any type of raised leg block, or even kicking above knee level you are putting that leg at risk for a cut kick to the base leg. From a CMA perspective, the golden rooster stance comes to mind. the base leg is wide open.

[SevenStar]

If you don't pivot the foot when doing that kick it appears to me that you would be putting undue stress on the leg because your twisting your leg from the ankle up to get that rotation needed to throw that round kick to compensate for not pivoting the foot. It looks like that it would hurt your knee in the long run. You have to have that rotation in order to get the correct angle for your foot for it to be a roundhouse kick. Am I explaining myself clearly.....lol???

When you step without the pivot (I think I mentioned this in an earlier post) you step outward at an angle. your foot will already be in the position it would be if you used a pivot.

[Judge Pen]

When you step without the pivot (I think I mentioned this in an earlier post) you step outward at an angle. your foot will already be in the position it would be if you used a pivot.

Which is how I usually throw a roundhouse kick. It works for me because my flexibility is less than optimal and concealing the turn of the foot in a step (while using hands/other techniques as a set up) allows me to cheat my hips open and fire a kick faster without having to pivot during the motion of the kick itself.

From the way I was first taught to throw a roundhouse kick, I always thought this was "cheating" but it worked for me so I keep doing it.

[SevenStar]

so do I, unless I am throwing a lead leg kick.

[Lucas]

So what do you do if you dont have room/time to take that step...do you pivot then?

My pivot happens as the leg comes up for the kick, so its not telegraphing anything the leg isnt....

[Lucas]

messing around in the office i noticed that:

when i do take a step forward i step at a 45 degree angle then pivot the rest as my leg leaves the ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you throw your hip into the kick and allow it to go "over", its almost impossible NOT to pivot with the supporting foot.

[SevenStar]

If you throw your hip into the kick and allow it to go "over", its almost impossible NOT to pivot with the supporting foot.

the dutch are pretty good at it. They (at least the ones I worked with) also hate it when you let the kick go all the way around if you miss.

[SevenStar]

So what do you do if you dont have room/time to take that step...do you pivot then?

My pivot happens as the leg comes up for the kick, so its not telegraphing anything the leg isnt....

you pivot as the leg is raising? seems like that will take away from the kicks power.

If you don't have room to take that step, you are not in proper range for the kick anyway. However, to answer the question, yeah, I would pivot. but I have a background in other MA, so I was taught to pivot. I am not sure what a guy who was never taught to pivot would do - he may just throw another technique. If you are in infighting range, do you throw a hook, or try to force a jab even though you are too close? same thing.

[Lucas]

I suppose it would depend on where my foot is at when i throw the kick, but just messing around throwing fast ones, its a simultaneous accurance for me, as my kicking leg begins to lift weight my pivot happens. not to say once the leg is already off the ground...if that makes sense.

as to the rest, that make sense.

does make me wonder what would be taught to one who does not pivot without a step for that particular scenario.

[MSphinx]

you pivot as the leg is raising? seems like that will take away from the kicks power.

I don't think it does. You do away with a lot of friction if you pivot on the ball of your foot as you raise the leg. The trick is the shoulder, hip, and standing leg all have to turn at the same time. Here's a good example:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/672/kicker2tk9.gif

[SevenStar]

I don't think it does. You do away with a lot of friction if you pivot on the ball of your foot as you raise the leg. The trick is the shoulder, hip, and standing leg all have to turn at the same time. Here's a good example:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/672/kicker2tk9.gif

that guy is stepping and then pivoting as he kicks. That's normal. If that's what Lucas was talking about, then no, I don't think that would detract from the power of the kick. That's not what I envisioned when I read his post though. In the pic you posted, the guy doesn't pivot as soon as his leg raises - he steps, and when his leg is about hip height and he's ready to actually throw the kick, he pivots.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The degree of picot is also effected by the height of the kick in some methods.

I think that most can agree that some pivot of the support leg is better than no pivot, and that in kicks thrown with full hip rotation that pivoting is ideal, wither one pivots as we kick or pivots before the kick becomes one of personal preference I think.
We can probably agree that, in regards to kicking counters to the support leg WHILE the leg is up or while the support leg carries the weight of the body during the kick, getting kicked there hurts like heck.

[SevenStar]

sounds like someone is trying to bring this thread to a close...;)

[Lucas]

To pivot, or not to pivot.

Is that really the question?

[dougadam]

How could you not pivot?

[SevenStar]

did you read the whole thread, or just the last page?

[Becca]

Aww, common 7*, you know any thread on this forum that is 9 pages long stays so true to the original topic that you only need to read the last 3 or 4 posts to get the gist of the whole thread.....;):p

[Untarai]

To pivot, or not to pivot.

Is that really the question?

There are so many variations! Even in Muay Thai, (espacially in the old styles) depending on how you want to affect the target there are different degrees of pivoting. Angulation of the strike also plays alot into it. It is much easier to pivot on a low kick than a high one.

Untarai

www.muaythaiokc.com