Shuai Jiao vs Judo Rules Question [Archive]

MightyB

01-31-2008, 05:56 AM

Does anybody know the competition differences between Judo and Shuai Jiao? I'm a competitive Judoka and I'm looking at trying a Shuai Jiao competition. What are the do's and don'ts of Judo vs Shuai Jiao. Time limits, scoring, legal and illegal techniques, etc. Also- where would a person get a Shuai Jiao uniform?

the Preacher

01-31-2008, 06:04 AM

the event promoter should have rules available.

Oso

01-31-2008, 06:33 AM

MB, you going to go to the GLT?

we'll be there.

Mas Judt

01-31-2008, 07:05 AM

Most common variances:

No ne-waza

No sacrifice throws

No chokes

CSC rules are a little different:

Punches & kicks allowed

Ground work allowed, but if more than 30 seconds new fighters rush the stage and beat on both opponents.

MightyB

01-31-2008, 07:22 AM

MB, you going to go to the GLT?

we'll be there.

Probably... depends on my finances at the time.

My Sifu usually goes, so I was thinking about tagging along this year.

Me and a couple of my Judo boys were thinking about trying SC there. We'll still be primed cuz that takes place just about when the Midwestern competitive Judo circuit ends. So we all will still be in good fighting shape.

Mas Judt

01-31-2008, 11:00 AM

Three Harmonies

01-31-2008, 11:39 AM

Why do you say SC has a much deeper technical base?
Thanks
Jake :cool:

tjmitch

01-31-2008, 12:28 PM

"Why do you say SC has a much deeper technical base? "

Because kung fu is always better, and is more sophistcated, technical and deadly than any other art.

WinterPalm

01-31-2008, 01:36 PM

Shuai Chiao has a much deeper technical base and many throws that are illegal in Judo.

Judo often gets you more people to randori with so your shuai fa can really develop. Not as many people in Shuai Chiao so bonus to Judo. Judo (in my opinion) has faster footwork, but Shuai Chiao has better handwork/gripping/ controlling knowledge.

I have teacher rank in both, these are just my observations. (It has been 20+ years since I did Judo.)

In Judo competition you can't hold the belt for longer than a specified amount of time and you can't grab the upper back past the mid-line of the person (at least where I've trained and competed), and aside from this, I see and use practically every conceivable way of grabbing the person and fighting for grip. In fact, every person does this differently and can defend and tie you up in bizarre ways.
That said, how does Shuai Chiao differ that dramatically?
Is it in the setups? Are they more pronounced and focused on?

Mas Judt

01-31-2008, 03:13 PM

In fact, every person does this differently and can defend and tie you up in bizarre ways.

That was my experience in Judo too. But in the Shuai Chiao there was systemized training and strategies for grip and control combined with different footwork strategies. This why I say it has a deeper base. It is true of almost every aspect of the Shuai Chiao.

My training partner when I was learning Shuai Chiao was also the guy I got my Shodan in Judo under. He was a well-known Judo champ here in Chicago. The combination training and the more flexible throwing syllabus improved his already considerable skill base. Wally Barbar, an old time Judo guy in Chicago was frankly horrified.

That said, a really good Judo guy is just as dangerous as a really good Shuai Chiao guy in my opinion - when it comes to free wrestling. I think Shuai chiao translates better to free-fighting, but that is another thread. Judo is actually easier to learn throwing in the beginning because of the emphasis on the stages of the throw - the kake/kuzushi theory that in my opinion makes Judo footwork very swift.

Trained well, I believe Shuai Chiao will give you an edge. It's biggest deficiency is the limited number of people to compete against. Which inhibits the development of Shuai Fa - in my opinion.

It worked for me. But if you only have Judo - that's a good combat sport. If your choice is a mediocre Shuai Chiao teacher and a mediocre Judo teacher, I'd do the Judo because you'll more easily learn and meet good players. But of you have a good Shuai Chiao coach - THAT is ****ing gold.

ginosifu

02-01-2008, 07:15 AM

MightyB -

I will attempt to explain some of the rules of SC. I am not fully versed on the Judo rules though.

1 point throw =

Trip or make someone fall flat on their back (without them spinning or twirling in the air).

3 points touching the ground by anyone. 2 feet + 1 hand touching or 1 foot + 2 hands.

2 point throw =

The legs and or body has to has to spin in the air.

Example - The common hip throw (stepping in, grab around their waist and lift them over your hip, their legs flip and spin in the air).

3 point throw =

The person is lifted and or thrown above your head with the legs spinning and or rotating.

In SC there is no sacrifice throwing.

The SC Jacket differs a bit from Judo Jacket. It is smaller and tighter to the body.

Fighter are only allowed to grip the same hold for 3 seconds, then the ref should ask them to switch grips.

Every group or organization has different time contraints. Ours is 2 - 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rest between. 10 point spread is auto winner.

I have fought in other tourneys where 1st throw wins or fighting on top of a lei tai. That was fun throwing peeps of the top. Scroring should be similar in all other orgs.

Ginosifu

Dragonzbane76

02-01-2008, 07:19 AM

In Judo competition you can't hold the belt for longer than a specified amount of time

In SC you can only have a grip for a 5 sec. or something before you have to move or regrip differently. It's different in the lvl you are going in.

ginosifu

02-01-2008, 09:26 AM

MightyB
You can get SC Jackets thru me:

ginosifu@shaolininstitute.com

or Daniel Weng:

http://www.shuai-chiao.org/catalog/

Ginosifu :p

Oso

02-01-2008, 10:02 AM

I wish the jackets weren't so expensive.

They are nice, good quality, heavy duty fabric and I understand that they are not mass produced so that affects the cost. But, it is a deterent to competing in the competition I think.

Not really a criticism, just saying. My folks that are coming are thinking about buying 1 jacket and sharing :)

Three Harmonies

02-01-2008, 05:12 PM

Cheaper than BJJ gi's! Get what you pay for!
Jake :cool:

Oso

02-01-2008, 07:46 PM

well, I don't usually go for the $200 dollar gi's...my judo/jj gi is just a simple Martial Arts Marts double weave (that'll be $5, Gene ;) )

again, not a criticism, but for folks that train some throwing who might like to compete (who are going to be at the event anyway), dropping another 90-100 on
top of travel, lodging and food on the road for a couple of days can sometimes be beyond the budget. It's the only reason I didn't do it in 2000.

I don't see a way around the issue though:
lack of mass production = higher cost on the end product.
you can't supply 'loaners' in an age of MRSA
so: some folks can't afford it so they can't compete in an event that requires a specific uniform.

it's nobody's fault...like I said, just saying. Maybe wiser heads than mine can come up with a solution.

*edit*

personally, I think TC/KFMO/MAM should get back in the business of producing/selling SC/SJ jackets just for the purpose of aiding the cause of TCMA. :p :) @ Gene

Merryprankster

02-02-2008, 08:53 AM

But in the Shuai Chiao there was systemized training and strategies for grip and control combined with different footwork strategies.

This is an interesting observation.

My experience in TRAINING judo has been almost entirely with high level competitive judoka, and gripwork was systemized and strategized to death for the simple reason that everybody at that level can throw incredibly well already....that's how they got there. So gripping and conditioning are the tools to hone. Tons ot time spent doing gripwork. I use those gripwork strategies and concepts in my BJJ practice, actually.

I'll admit that the rules of Judo do not allow the VARIETY of gripping, however.

WinterPalm

02-02-2008, 11:25 AM

This is an interesting observation.

My experience in TRAINING judo has been almost entirely with high level competitive judoka, and gripwork was systemized and strategized to death for the simple reason that everybody at that level can throw incredibly well already....that's how they got there. So gripping and conditioning are the tools to hone. Tons ot time spent doing gripwork. I use those gripwork strategies and concepts in my BJJ practice, actually.

I'll admit that the rules of Judo do not allow the VARIETY of gripping, however.

Conditioning and grip. That's a huge part of our Judo program.
Still, with limited throwing ability, such as myself, the better grip helps neutralize things a bit and keep control of the other person. At least until I go flying into the floor.
An orange belt from our club recently made a brown belt from another club vomit during a competition. Apparently our fighters are known in the city for their conditioning. That's probably why class is so grueling.

shuaichiao

02-03-2008, 02:17 PM

I wish the jackets weren't so expensive.
:)

Didn't martialartsmart used to have a complete shuai chiao uniform (jacket and pants) for like $50? Somebody did but I can't find the listing anymore.

Oso

02-03-2008, 02:21 PM

Didn't martialartsmart used to have a complete shuai chiao uniform (jacket and pants) for like $50? Somebody did but I can't find the listing anymore.

they did, I asked Gene about it a while back...economics. they weren't selling enough to quantify production.

bodhitree

02-05-2008, 05:22 AM

Step one: Buy a judogi

Step two: Bill Bellacheat the sleeves

Result: Shuai Jiao jacket!

I'll quietly await my kudos

Oso

02-05-2008, 05:36 AM

lol...if I'm not mistaken, you must wear on 'official' SC jacket to compete.

just like judo has it's own uniform rules for it's venue.

Mas Judt

02-05-2008, 06:22 AM

This is an interesting observation.

My experience in TRAINING judo has been almost entirely with high level competitive judoka, and gripwork was systemized and strategized to death for the simple reason that everybody at that level can throw incredibly well already....that's how they got there. So gripping and conditioning are the tools to hone. Tons ot time spent doing gripwork. I use those gripwork strategies and concepts in my BJJ practice, actually.

I'll admit that the rules of Judo do not allow the VARIETY of gripping, however.

Well, except for a few cases, my Judo experience was a PE class in high school, then training with other clubs. The BEST gripwork we had in Chicago was an unorthodox group - the Cohen brothers - who modified everything to make it work better. But I have never seen the level of systematic training I see in Shuai Chiao in Judo. But not knowing EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW, I could be wrong. I like Judo a lot, but found much more information for skill development i Shuai Chiao - the SC also translated more easily to free fighting.

Judo also has the benefit of a large practice base, so I'm sure there are different groups doing all sorts of stuff.

MightyB

02-14-2008, 07:29 AM

I gotta start saving my pennies cuz it looks fun http://youtube.com/watch?v=y5WL5wK-g4M

Too bad you can't do sacrifice throws- that overly defensive head down stiff arming posture just screams "throw me". I prefer a bicep / shoulder grip and double lapel- so the wierd jacket won't be a problem. I see that there are many rewards for me to "reap" in shuai chou if you know what I mean.

Uchi Mata I yell crazily to myself...

Ho Chun

02-14-2008, 08:09 AM

You can get good quality Shuai Chiao uniforms through David Lin's website, it's:

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/

I hope this helps.

MightyB

02-14-2008, 08:12 AM

Is it OK to wear black in competition?

Ho Chun

02-14-2008, 08:20 AM

Personally I don't see a problem, although I have seen turney promotors that don't allow it. I just always thought it was because they want you to buy their expensive SC jackets.

I have also seen plenty of Judo guys that have worn their Judo gi's. It must be a money thing. Should the jacket really matter?? I don't think so. People just want to compete, that's the problem with alot of the promotors, they want to squeeze every penny out of people. Then there are the ones that have no problem as long as it's a SC or Judo jacket.

In Taiwan, the SC jackets (for competition) are reversable, one side red the other is blue. This way one competitor is in one color while the other is wearing the reverse.

Three Harmonies

02-14-2008, 09:10 AM

Mighty B-
I could not agree more! I have been telling John Wang and Company to start allowing sac throws in competition, as it will only make it more exciting to watch, and more challenging to do!
Jake :cool:

Oso

02-14-2008, 11:03 AM

...sac throws...

anyone who grabs me by the sac to throw me is gonna get punched in the face

:p

Three Harmonies

02-14-2008, 01:45 PM

Touche! :D

MightyB

02-14-2008, 01:49 PM

Touche! :D

or Touch-e

Oso

02-14-2008, 02:20 PM

hey, none of that here...get a room!

shuaichiao

02-14-2008, 02:30 PM

You can get good quality Shuai Chiao uniforms through David Lin's website, it's:

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/

I hope this helps.

I have one of his jackets and they are great for training but I don't recommend it for tournements. It's much thinner material than what most everyone else will be wearing and they will have a huge advantage in getting a good grip before you do.

Oso

02-14-2008, 02:55 PM

I have one of his jackets and they are great for training but I don't recommend it for tournements. It's much thinner material than what most everyone else will be wearing and they will have a huge advantage in getting a good grip before you do.

do you think that the black jackets would be allowed?

all my folks that are coming to do san shou have those black ones already, it'd be sweet monetarilly if they could use them and compete SC as well.

Merryprankster

02-16-2008, 12:03 PM

mas judt,

Apologies. I read what I wrote, puzzled a moment over your response, then realized what my post must have looked like. I emphasized the word training to distinguish that I do not compete at high levels. I didn't want anybody to think I was claiming a particular level of skill and experience in judo that I can't back up, and do not have :) it was not meant to suggest that "I have experience and clearly you do not, so what do you mean gripping isn't a major judo thing, etc."

I know nothing of SC, other than what I have read here, so my comment that you made an interesting observation was exactly that; gripping seems to be a tremendous focus of high level judo, which, perhaps, stands in contrast to those learning to throw...a different emphasis perhaps? Dunno.

shuaichiao

02-16-2008, 12:10 PM

do you think that the black jackets would be allowed?

all my folks that are coming to do san shou have those black ones already, it'd be sweet monetarilly if they could use them and compete SC as well.

I've never known there to be any rule on the color of the jacket but I'm not hosting the tournement either.

Oso

02-16-2008, 02:02 PM

I've never known there to be any rule on the color of the jacket but I'm not hosting the tournement either.

i'll ask Sifu Gino, thanks.

Mas Judt

02-16-2008, 04:36 PM

MP - not a biggie. I was just clarifying that I don't know everything about Judo and can only speak to my experiences.

The problem with many of these kinds of discussions is they often fail in clearly defining differences. I remember a thread that sought to make the point that certain wrestling moves or weightlifting moves did the *same* thing as certain moves in Chen Taiji. And while, on a superficial level the poster was correct - you will syill never develop Chen specific skills with those other pursuits.

I don't see that so much here, as both are stand up grappling arts so they have a lot more in common than they don't. But there are plus/minus differences between the two both generally and specifically, but it does not devalue either. It just depends on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

ginosifu

02-18-2008, 01:08 PM

OSO and everyone that may have questions:

It does not matter what style of SC jacket you wear at our tournament. It does not matter what color they are. You can cut the sleeves off a Judo jacket if you want. (An expensive cut at $200).

SC jackets have shorter tighter sleeves so there is less ability to grip from the sleeve. They are tighter around the body as well. This to make it a bit harder for fighters grab and grip the jackets.

Anyone that has Sc rules questions, please let me know.

Ginosifu

Oso

02-18-2008, 01:55 PM

ok, sweet. thanks.

ginosifu

02-21-2008, 01:34 PM

OSO,

Just finished a converstion with John Ervin. He stated he will allow any style Shuai Chiao jacket. They must be a thick heavy weight material jacket. He will not allow modified karate Gi's. I think the Combat Shuai Chiao guys modify their karate gi's and thats why they are a bit cheaper.

So if it looks like something other than a SC or Judo jacket, then it will not be allowed.

Ginosifu