East vs West

[OTD]

Honorable Forum Members
Has any one forum member ever tried to match Western (N. American) herbs to their Eastern Counterparts uses and indications?
Just wondering?
OTD

[jow yeroc]

I've always wondered that as well. I grow some good Western medicinal herbs
and have often wondered about compatiblilty. Though there usually seems to be
more of a general opinion that the Chinese/Asian varieties of herbs are better
or stronger. I've seen some formulations for tonics and such that allow for
substitution of the western variety. I think they usually recommend trying to
get a hold of the variety called for in the particular formula. But maybe the
more experienced herbalists can answer better. I'd like to know too.:)

[herb ox]

There's a great book out there by a most respected herbalist, Michael Tierra. The book is called "Planetary Herbology", and I had seen it for years, but quickly disregarded it because of its title - I assumed incorrectly that it was somehow related to astrology or or other new-agey discipline.

Turns out I was waaay wrong! This book attempts (quite well, I might add) to relate Western herbs to the TCM and Ayurvedic way of thinking, so tastes and energy are included, as well as references to traditional diagnoses (i.e. liver qi stagnation). It's a pretty extensive reference for a paperbound volume.

peace

herb ox

[OTD]

Herb_ox
Thanks for the info, I'll see if the local bookstore can get me a copy. It looks a bit more interesting than the Petrerson Field Guides series.
OTD

[jow yeroc]

Good look herb ox. I will look for it today after work.

[GeneChing]

Wasn't really sure where to put this, but I really liked the photo. ;)


Traditional Chinese medicine is getting a voice at the World Health Organization (http://qz.com/362182/traditional-chinese-medicine-is-getting-a-voice-at-the-world-health-organization/)

https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/snake-soup.jpg?w=1600
Not this kind of medicine, hopefully.(Reuters/Bobby Yip)

Written by Lily Kuo@lilkuo
China's Transition
March 14, 2015

Traditional Chinese medicine has received a vote of confidence from the World Health Organization. China’s World Federation of Chinese Medicine Societies, a Beijing organization that promotes traditional Chinese medicine, has established official relations with the WHO, and will now be able to attend WHO meetings, and “have a say in global decision-making on major health issues,” according to the group.

“The WHO recognizes the value and role traditional medicine can play in national health systems, especially in primary care,” WHO’s representative in China, Bernhard Schwartlander said, according to Chinese media. (The WHO was not immediately available for comment.)

Despite its over 3,000-year history, the jury is still out on the effectiveness of traditional Chinese medicine, or TCM, which ranges from acupuncture to herbal concoctions, Tai Qi, and dietary advice. The United States’ National Institute for Health says that “there is not enough rigorous scientific evidence to know whether TCM methods work for the conditions for which they are used.”

The Chinese government’s support for promoting TCM, popular in much of China and East Asia, dates back to the 1950s. But even Mao Zedong once admitted, “Even though I believe we should promote Chinese medicine… I personally do not believe in it. I don’t take Chinese medicine.”

Over the past few years, as TCM has become more popular, scientists have collected evidence that at least some chemical components of herbs and materials used in TCM are effective. Last month, a study found that the chemical tetrandrine, found in the stephania root, known in Chinese as hanfangji and used as an anti-inflammatory remedy, can help ward off the Ebola virus. Last year, a study found that TCM helped reduce angina, or chest pain in test subjects.

And in 2008, a group of researchers found that 1,235 chemical components in TCMs were either included or structurally similar to those in the Comprehensive Medicinal Chemistry database for approved chemical agents. “All of these findings suggest that TCM, at least in part, has a scientific basis,” those researchers wrote in 2008.

But doubts about TCM, and how it is regulated, remain. Producers of TCMs have been known to add toxins, undisclosed drugs, and heavy metals in some cases, to increase the appearance of effectiveness.

Skepticism is compounded by the fact that the popularity of TCM is believed to drive much of the trade in endangered animals parts. A study by researchers at Murdoch University in Australia in 2012 found that 78% of samples tested included animal DNA that was not listed—as well as unlisted ingredients like ephedra, a poisonous herb banned in the US, and aristolochic acid, a carcinogen.

[GeneChing]

Wasn't sure where to post this and didn't want to search for too long, so it goes here.


Commentary: Putting traditional Chinese medicine to the test (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-chinese-medicine-cancer-acupuncture-20150921-story.html)

http://www.trbimg.com/img-56000b95/turbine/ct-chinese-medicine-cancer-20150921-001/750/750x422
Workers at a traditional chinese medicine store prepare various dried items at a shop in Hong Kong in December 2010. (Mike Clarke, AFP/Getty Images)

Adam Minter Bloomberg
For traditional Chinese medicine to gain legitimacy, it must be held to the same rigorous standards.

Toad skin and turtle shells aren’t the cures most Americans turn to when they learn they’ve developed cancer. But in China, the market for traditional remedies like these grew 35 percent last year, twice as fast as the overall anti-cancer market. Though the effectiveness of these treatments is unproven, Western doctors, elite medical institutions and pharmaceutical companies are starting to put them to the scientific test.

At first glance, the gap between dried centipede (a traditional Chinese anti-cancer drug) and conventional medicine seems a wide one. But Westerners have adopted Chinese medical practice before. In 1971, New York Times editor and columnist James Reston wrote about his experience with acupuncture after an emergency appendectomy at Beijing's Anti-Imperialist Hospital. It was the first time that many Americans had ever heard of the procedure, and is widely acknowledged to have done much to legitimize it in the eyes of patients, medical professionals and even insurance companies.

But acupuncture, even if badly administered, is unlikely to pin***** a patient to injury or death. The same cannot be said for some of the drugs associated with traditional Chinese medicine, widely known as TCM. TCM remains very much a craft, largely unregulated and barely vetted by science. Tragic consequences are well documented. A 2013 study of acute liver failure in China found that 17 percent of reported cases were caused by herbal remedies, while a 2014 study found that 42.5 percent of all drug-induced liver failure in China was caused by TCM.

Many of the most popular medicines are known to contain lead, arsenic and other dangerous substances. The use of endangered species is widespread. So is cruelty in harvesting compounds like bear bile from living animals.

China's TCM industry has resisted disclosing or acknowledging the side effects of its treatments. These problems are well-known to the Chinese public, which remains emotionally split over TCM and its effectiveness despite government efforts to promote it. So far, such concerns don’t appear to have crossed over to Western patients, who seem more grossed out by TCM than frightened of it. But their governments are not so tolerant. The United Kingdom, for example, has largely banned their import while Hong Kong — a thriving market for TCM — strictly regulates them.

None of these prohibitions is unreasonable (conventional medicine is also highly regulated), but for the Chinese government, which has long supported TCM as a key cultural export, this is a public policy problem that needs addressing. Export revenue reached $3.13 billion in 2013 and the government has bigger plans. TCM growth was even included in China’s last five-year plan, the national blueprint for economic development.

Achieving those goals, and putting overseas patients at ease, won’t be easy. The most important step is for China’s government-subsidized TCM establishment to put traditional medicine to the same scientific test as any other kind of medicine. It’s been done before. During the Cultural Revolution, for example, a group of Chinese researchers tasked with finding new anti-malarial drugs isolated and extracted artemisinin from qinghao, an herb used for centuries. Today, artemisinin is a leading anti-malarial drug worldwide, and researchers are now investigating its anti-cancer properties.

For TCM to gain international legitimacy, its practitioners will have to isolate compounds and subject them to academic studies and regulatory approvals in countries where research and approval standards are high. China, with its corrupt China Food and Drug Administration and culture of academic misconduct, doesn't qualify. That’s not cheap, and it’s not quick, but it’s more or less the route that U.S. hospitals and researchers are taking today as they seek to integrate the benefits of TCM into established therapies. The end result may not look like a Chinese medicine cabinet, but the benefits will be far more palatable to scientists, doctors and patients.

Bloomberg
Adam Minter is based in Asia, where he covers politics, culture and business for Bloomberg View.

[MarathonTmatt]

Most westerners in the Americas (United States/ Canada in particular) would be sursprised at the rich medicinal herbs and plants that grow wild in North America. For example, in the Eastern United States american ginseng grows wild. there is of course the eastern (asian) counter-part to this plant. There are many examples just like this. For anyone interested in this area of research I recommend 2 great books:

- "Indian Herbalogy Of North America- the definitive guide to native medicinal plants and their uses" by Alma Hutchens,
and

-"MicMac Medicines- remedies and recollections" by Laurie Lacey.

Both are good books. The MicMac medicines book is localized to the NorthEast region of US/ Canada- steeping plant roots for colds, kidney ailments, nerve pain, even diabetes (with skunk cabbage root used for diabetes cure- a common plant found in the swamps around here),etc.

Indian Herbalogy book is more broad but also very good resource. just over 300 pages long.

[boxerbilly]

Most westerners in the Americas (United States/ Canada in particular) would be sursprised at the rich medicinal herbs and plants that grow wild in North America. For example, in the Eastern United States american ginseng grows wild. there is of course the eastern (asian) counter-part to this plant. There are many examples just like this. For anyone interested in this area of research I recommend 2 great books:

- "Indian Herbalogy Of North America- the definitive guide to native medicinal plants and their uses" by Alma Hutchens,
and

-"MicMac Medicines- remedies and recollections" by Laurie Lacey.

Both are good books. The MicMac medicines book is localized to the NorthEast region of US/ Canada- steeping plant roots for colds, kidney ailments, nerve pain, even diabetes (with skunk cabbage root used for diabetes cure- a common plant found in the swamps around here),etc.

Indian Herbalogy book is more broad but also very good resource. just over 300 pages long.

I agree. Just not as well studied. Recall we did genocide entire tribes. Gone forever. Seems then as now, not much interest in anything American Indian. That said, I believe the Chinese are the largest buyer of Americas ( includes Canada) Ginseng.

TMatt. What do you know about Apache Footfighting ? Please pm me or start at thread in the appropriate forum.

[GeneChing]

This is obvious to me, but I guess not to others.


Chinese herbs mixed with medications can be hazardous (http://www.vancouversun.com/health/chinese+herbs+mixed+with+medications+hazardous/11438616/story.html)
New tool created by University of B.C. medical students aims to minimize risks
By Pamela Fayerman, Vancouver Sun October 15, 2015

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/cms/binary/11438617.jpg
Dr. Kendall Ho holds Dong quai (Angelica sinensis) in front of Vancouver General Hospital’s Emergency entrance. He supervised a group of medical students who created a chart for doctors to know which Chinese herbs interact potentially dangerously with prescription medications.
Photograph by: Arlen Redekop , PNG

Using traditional Chinese herbal remedies while also taking prescription medications can cause potentially life-threatening reactions.

After a survey of Chinese immigrants in Vancouver found that many use traditional herbs and fail to disclose it to their doctors, a group of medical students developed a cautionary chart outlining the dangers.

The project began while the four students were at the University of B.C. medical school. Now they are all pursuing specialty training across Canada and are proud of the patient safety tool they’ve just unveiled.

“The use of traditional Chinese herbs is part of our culture. I grew up with it,” said Dr. Janny Xuechen Ke in an interview from Halifax, where she’s doing a residency training program in anesthesiology.

She said when she was a child growing up in China (she moved to Vancouver at age 12), she had an adverse reaction to antibiotics. After that, she recalls her parents’ preference for occasionally trying Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), thinking it would be safer.

But Xuechen Ke said anywhere in the world, too few doctors ask patients if they are using herbs. A survey her group conducted of more than 300 Chinese immigrants to Vancouver revealed many don’t disclose their use of such remedies because they feel they’ll be harshly judged. Meanwhile, 80 per cent of the survey respondents said they had previously used Chinese herbs. About half said they took them on the recommendation of family or friends.

A growing number of studies is showing, however, that ingesting commonly prescribed medications like the anticoagulant warfarin at the same time as herbs can be a recipe for disaster. A study in the Singapore Medical Journal earlier this year showed that there are 44 commonly used herbal products, including ginkgo, ginseng, licorice and ginger, which interact with warfarin, causing symptoms like bleeding.

In the communication tool developed by the UBC group — a printed card or an online document — 22 popular herbs are listed with information about what effects they have in the body and any evidence of interactions.

The hope is that TCM practitioners will tick off which herbs they’ve sold to the health consumer. The form can then be shown to patients’ medical doctors so they can see what they are using and then caution patients about potential interactions. Licorice (Gan Cao), for example, may be used to prevent hepatitis B and C but it increases the metabolism of warfarin so patients might need a different dose than the standard. Ginkgo, thought to improve cognition, may also increase blood glucose levels, is an anticoagulant and may cause seizures. Ginseng, widely used to boost energy and stimulate the immune system, has effects on glucose and estrogen levels, depending on the type of plant derivative.

“This is a patient safety issue. People think herbs are natural and benign but they can have potentially dangerous effects in the body,” said Xuechen Ke, who was in the pharmacy program at UBC before she entered medical school. “Our hope is that people will carry this list we’ve created, along with a list of the prescription drugs they are using. It’s important information to share with doctors but patients need to take responsibility for this too.”

The list and a description of the project is published in the current issue of the BC Medical Journal. Dr. Kendall Ho, an emergency department doctor at Vancouver General Hospital and executive director of the interCultural Online Health Network, supervised the project. He said it’s a useful tool since communication between TCM providers and medical doctors is lacking. But with Metro Vancouver’s growing number of Chinese residents and an increase in the use of herbs in the general population, there’s a need to minimize adverse reactions while boosting awareness.

TCM practitioners who prescribe herbs, doctors and health consumers can email icon.support@ubc.ca for the list or view it below.

Herbs by The Vancouver Sun

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/7fo16vo2v44sr066/images/1-7d1e2f29a9.jpg

Sun Health Issues Reporter

pfayerman@vancouversun.com

My dad was on wafarin. That's a very tricky med.

[mawali]

Honorable Forum Members
Has any one forum member ever tried to match Western (N. American) herbs to their Eastern Counterparts uses and indications?
Just wondering?
OTD

As stated, this is dangerous!
Herbs, by themselves are great providing you can correctly identify, catalogue and assess benefit through knowledge, experience and schooling. Mixing them is hazardous especially when many formulation do not reflect the % of product that is part of formulation. Additionally CYP isoenzym(s) CYP450!) can only be done through assay meaning you cannot look at someone and say they have a predominance of x CYP! Different ethnic groups are given specific drugs based on the generic ADME (absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion) <generally>. Some groups might need less of a specific drug than others and this affects ADME, along with age, food and type of disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochrome_P450
background of CYP 450 isoenzymes