Is it just me?

[firepalm]

Having looked at HSKwarriors posting about Buksing CLF youtube videos, I looked at most all of them & I thought, 'ehhh..., no big deal, in fact some of the players were not so great?' Now don't get me wrong I am not disrespecting CLF in anyway. In fact speaking of Buk Sing, I look at the Lacey's and am completely impressed. They play their CLF with true intent 'yi'. All of their movements have a fighting intention.

But it just seems to me more & more traditional schools (not the Lacey's) are devolving into really substandard schools and I think are unknowingly doing a disservice to CMA. They trudge through forms in demos, like many of the ones shown on the aforementioned thread, looking like their feet are in the mud. They have no spirit, speed or power, no 'ging'. Sorry but when I look at CMA players like that I can't help but think there's no way they can fight either. I remember standing in Chinatown here in Vancouver watching a similar such demo of honestly very mediocre kung fu and a young lady (that was a very good modern wushu player) laughed, turned to me and said 'lahp sup kung fu' (garbage kung fu). And while some might have thought it a rude comment, I have to say I agreed with her assessment.

A school up here in Vancouver teaching so called traditional does virtually no sparring, mostly numerous forms & the two female teachers tell their students things like the moves they are learning in the forms are too deadly for competition, sparring & such. I see their people perform, again trudging through their routines and sorry but I hear the things they say & I think 'crap'.

I have to say what lkfmdc (David Ross) speaks of makes a lot sense. Now I don't agree with all of his opinions but at least he, in my opinion, isn't a slave to some traditional kung fu dogma and is trying to address the training & fighting realities of what he is doing. I do believe that while it may not necessarily look like it but I think his original Lama style principles factor greatly into what he teaches now. But at the same time he is addressing in a realistic way the true realities of fighting & is probably one of the few that really does train all the ranges of combat; ti, da, na & shuai.

Honestly I have more appreciation for a good modern wushu club or athlete then many traditional clubs today because at least the wushu people have speed, athleticism, etc... (and most don't pretend they're fighters) something really lacking in a lot of the traditional I see these days.

I actually really like CMA in all it's many aspects, love the culture, the diversity and the history but the traditional that I see especially these days is just looking sad.

Is it just me? :(

[Drake]

No, it's not just you. However, many clips out there are beginners and intermediates. I know I look like a warmed-over turd when I perform, but it's part of learning. I don't know for sure how standards might have dropped, but GM DFW is pretty strict with me. I can't count how many nights I was out there in the cold making corrections. And if I so much as perform a single diu ma with my shoulders slightly out instead of in, I have to do it all over again.

I also have the compound whammy of Sifu Frank slamming me for the stuff he finds wrong too.

[B-Rad]

I think Lee Koon Hung's CLF is a good example too. When I first saw him, I thought his form looked a lot like the old school modern wushu athletes. And though his brother isn't the performer he is, I saw a lot of the same traits in his DVD, and the students I've seen. Usually, when they lack that internal spirit and strength, I think it's often a case of the student being too imitative without yet really understanding what they're doing. And there's some guys I've seen who I think just need more protean and strength training :D Nutrition can make a big difference too ;)

[David Jamieson]

san shou victories will save your schools. get into it or die the death of the non-growth, non-adaptation type.

[CLFNole]

Firepalm:

This is a common trend nowadays as people don't seem to take kung fu as seriously as they did before. This was one of the reasons I started teaching less and focusing on my own training more. I have been with the school since 1994 and back then there was a number of good people now it's less than 5%. I understand that people have numerous responsibilities and for many it is form of exercise or stress relief but it is sad.

As far as the YouTube stuff that somewhat "lifeless" style is pretty common for HK kung fu. There are some really good traditional practitioners but kung fu is becoming more and more secondary to people and most sifu's don't have real schools anymore and teach at middle schools, high schools, universities and community centers.

Pretty easy to figure out what school you were referring to but every school is different and how they choose to teach is up to them, but misleading students and giving them a false sense of security is wrong if that is in fact the case.

Peace.

[Golden Arms]

Firepalm, I can't speak for the people that performed, but I do know first hand, the Sifu's you mentioned (which both learned under the late W.H. if we are talking about the same sifu's), can walk the walk, and did train to do the more nasty applications, instead of the sport ones. Not sure if they are passing that on, but they can do them real time. Aren't many of their students kids?

[CLFNole]

Another point that should be made is that what you see in a performance on a given day isn't always representative of the quality of kung fu of the school on a whole. Less and less people seem to help the schools nowadays so sometimes you have to let someone perform who you might not use if more people came out to help. Also some people have bad performance days, get nervous, etc...

To really make an evaluation of a school you need to watch classes see how the instructors teach, how they themselves move, etc...

This is one negative of the YouTube boom is that peoples perception can be greatly influenced by a single performance.

[iron_silk]

I hear what you are saying.

Especially since I have participated in "Vancouver Chinatown" kung fu performances. (I always wondered who were the people heckling us were in the audience.)

Well what can I say? Guilty as charged.

I know I am not using my body and my legs aren't rooted as my sifu wants me to. But I do try...not as hard or as serious as I like but I do.

Given the time and effort people put in...it's difficult to find those who are genuinely interested in putting in the effort. And those who would want some real application wouldn't waste the time with forms. Probably would do the whole MMA San shou etc...

But how many people can be that exceptional as Lacey?

I feel some of the schools in Vancouver does have quality reflected in their students...and they also do some sparring but only in their clubs.

and two female teachers...I wonder who you could mean? :confused: ;)

[banditshaw]

This is one negative of the YouTube boom is that peoples perception can be greatly influenced by a single performance.

Here Here!....Makes you wonder why people post them in the first place.

[CLFNole]

In many cases it is not the performer that puts them up but rather someone with a video camera that was at the event.

[banditshaw]

That is true.
I guess there is nothing one could do about that.

Maybe seek them out at a performance and smash their cameras before hand? :D
Not very virtuous, but could be effective.
Or just tighten your game up I suppose.:cool:

[CLFNole]

It is the risk anyone takes when they are involved in a public performance and you always have to take the good with the bad. You need to have thick skin in kung fu.

[Satori Science]

I would be pretty surpirsed to watch the adolescent and teenage students from most schools and expect "that much better" than what I saw. I personally teach my Sifu's kids classes and the 4 hours a week that I see them is far from enough to expect amazing results. they are great kids with good spirit but they have school and music and TV and girls and this and that and the rest of it to worry about.... That said we also have some exceptional students but tehy are genrally the ones who started young and have years under the belt, or who have a natural drive, or a natural talent,

few people are natural at kung fu, and unless you put in the hours then forms are gonna look like they did in the as for mentioned vids, they looked like kids performing and doing their best to me;)

For me it was cool to see intro level patterns using the movement style of my family, layed out different than the patterns I personally do. I would go back and watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YAbN...eature=related as this is the grand disicple of Lun Jee, my Sibak. Dude "is the truth"

The exception I see to my comments about youth and work ethic is our students who are first gen canadians coming from Futsan, my sifu pushes them much harder because the parents allow it. One even told me that when he's in trouble his mom punishes him by making him do horse stance. A differnt world, a dfifiernrnet world view. My sifu has yelled at me more than once for showing tyo many CLF applications in the kids class. In his opion it is stuff that is dangerous to teach to 12 year olds, now I see and unserstand why.

My great joy in teaching right now is my crew of 14 and 15 year old boys who are ready and hungry for the real CLF, I love the fact that a "stupid Lo Fan" is teaching the Cantonese boys how to fight CLF:D

In this world, if we want students to become great we have to make them love kung fu, and give them the dream and the example of being great so that they fall in love with the art and learn to drive themselves. We also have to share our system with them and not hold things back in an attempt to "stay traditional" The Grandmaster of my Taiji system Hong Jungsheng had a saying, "even if i teach you correctly, you still don't get it, why hold anything back?"

The world is changing, if instructors and practioners don't change with it soon the Wushu people will be laughing at us, or from the post above it seems to already be happening....

[hskwarrior]

satori, fix the url on that clip......i couldn't watch it.:(

[hskwarrior]

everyone's got some good points here.

I will step up and say this, the way the buk sing performers performed, it was done by people who love gung fu. not competition, but just doing gung fu, whether they are first class or not, they could care less. in my opinion, thats the old school way of doing things. my school looked like them until we started putting life into the forms.

we as martial artists have varying levels of demonstrators. some do it because their parents make them, so they don't put in the effort as much. some do it because their friends are there, or just looking for girls. but then you have those who are naturals, inspired by some reason be it good or bad, then you have those who just like to fight, or get into lots of fights. to me the latter person is the most hungry because he or she would utilize gung fu out of means of survival.

for people using gung fu to actually protect themselves from severe harm, their gung fu is going to reflect that very ugly aspect of a violent confrontation, while a competitor just wants to look his best during his performance.

the problems begin when you start including all tcma into a sports minded competitive entity. people start viewing tcma from that stand point, or even judge it as if its the olympics where people are EXPECTED to do their best.

anyways, some folks are great performers, others are great fighters, great teachers, and so forth, but all are still very different than each other.

so to say "devolving" nah.......i think some just are old school and don't know they may want to upgrade their current skill levels.

[Satori Science]

Try this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YAbNk1ZZQc&feature=related

[firepalm]

Interesting responses thank you. I realize a lot of persons such as those in the videos are maybe only novice or intermediate level and such, and really no criticism to them honestly. It just seems to me that the traditional CMA standards overall do seem to have sliden and there's less of the good stuff out there then the lower level stuff that seems to be more in the majority.

Hey InS, don't get me wrong I don't think every club is bad in Vancouver's Chinatown & such, it just seems there's not as many standout high level Kung Fu people as there once was. I remember many years ago when the Yau Kung Mun people first showed up on the Vancouver scene, some of their guys were really good, it made people stand up & notice. The same for the Loong Ying people back in the 70s, they were fast & powerful and when they performed they looked as if they meant business! Then a little bit later you had Al Cheng & his Mantis & Kickboxing people, he had a whole stable of seriously trained fighters. Fred Kwok's very early Wing Chun group was tough! It just seemed more of the clubs back in the day were really out to produce good decent Kung Fu people (fighters, performers, lion dancers or whatever the case) and many could actually fight because from time to time you might see it or at least hear about it. Now while some clubs are still decent, it seems there's a preponderence of clubs sending out kids that look as if they are just not into Kung Fu and being forced to perform because that's the best the club has to show?!?!?

Nowadays except in a few cases here in Vancouver anyways the clubs that are producing somewhat more decent results are the Wushu clubs (or the Kung Fu clubs turning into Wushu clubs) or the non Chinese MMA type clubs. I don't know but it just seems a little depressing.... :(

[iron_silk]

Hey InS, don't get me wrong I don't think every club is bad in Vancouver's Chinatown & such, it just seems there's not as many standout high level Kung Fu people as there once was. I remember many years ago when the Yau Kung Mun people first showed up on the Vancouver scene, some of their guys were really good, it made people stand up & notice. The same for the Loong Ying people back in the 70s, they were fast & powerful and when they performed they looked as if they meant business! Then a little bit later you had Al Cheng & his Mantis & Kickboxing people, he had a whole stable of seriously trained fighters. Fred Kwok's very early Wing Chun group was tough! It just seemed more of the clubs back in the day were really out to produce good decent Kung Fu people (fighters, performers, lion dancers or whatever the case) and many could actually fight because from time to time you might see it or at least hear about it. Now while some clubs are still decent, it seems there's a preponderence of clubs sending out kids that look as if they are just not into Kung Fu and being forced to perform because that's the best the club has to show?!?!?

Nowadays except in a few cases here in Vancouver anyways the clubs that are producing somewhat more decent results are the Wushu clubs (or the Kung Fu clubs turning into Wushu clubs) or the non Chinese MMA type clubs. I don't know but it just seems a little depressing.... :(



We'll I really wish I was into kung fu way back then (or alive for that matter), but here we are.

I think back then the sifu's were closer to sources of tough training and real life fighting.

People tend to get softer as life get easier.

Nowadays it's more about exercise and keeping fit and paying the bills...we can't do the hold horses for month before training starts anymore cause it's not practical. This is evident everywhere from HK to Canada.

Wushu is a different kind of beast. People view as a sport and they strive to be really athletic. You can't get away with half-ass wushu. Well you can be then you are not serious.

Ultimately you can't do wushu without strong basics...which the traditional is lacking nowadays.

Personally I decided I'm going to work on my horse this year...I know I say it every year but...I like to think I am finally starting to get it.