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prana
07-27-2001, 04:18 AM
Here are some questions for all....

1. Are you a vegetarian, and why are you a vegetarian ?
2. If you are concerned about animals and living creatures, how do you perceive driving, walking, living an everyday life ?
3. What about plants ? Are plants living creatures that we shant kill unnecesarily ?
4. Anything else you would like to add....

I often find myself feeling upset because my car has driven over some worms that was on the ground trying to escape the flooding grounds. Or, bothered because some slugs were crawling in the garbage bins and throwing them out would kill them, if they are mistreated in the garbage trucks compressing cavities.

Yet many a teachers of ther past has formulated mantras that aim at projecting their souls to a better rebirth. By putting these mantras on their vehicles or shoes, and even reciting mantras for creatures living in their intestinal tracts, they ensure a better rebirth for these creatures through the compassion of Buddhas.

I have given up eating land meat, as one day, through much meditation, I have felt saddened energies lingering about flesh of large mammals. But I am still guilty of consuming seafood, which also feels pain.

Reflect on your thoughts regarding this topic..... please share with your thoughts.

Nexus
07-27-2001, 08:58 PM
Eat for eating. Eat for life, not for ego. Resist the hindrances of the mind, but do not fool yourself into being overly strict. Enjoy yourself, eat good foods, eat until full and no more.

Do not worry for animals and such, eat what must be eaten to be healthy, this is natures course, do not ride on guilt and doubt while providing yourself with life.

Unless you are a monk do not live like one, be yourself, be kind and fair. It is difficult to be at the top and still need the bottom to survive. The animals are our foundation, hence, do not take in excess, but take enough to build strong.

Hope this helps.

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

origenx
07-27-2001, 11:34 PM
1. I am a vegetarian - it was just a natural progression off processed and dense foods.

2. Frankly, I've never really thought about this. So, I couldn't contribute any more thoughts than the obvious on this question. But, do u think those germs give a f*ck about u when they get u sick or give u an infection? U think they give a sh*t about your suffering when they give u pneumonia? So maybe we need to be selective about who we're nice to? Eye-4-an-eye? Screw the mosquitos!!!!!!! :)

3. I think plant diets are healthier for both us and the planet. The beneficial health effects of plants to humans are well-known. But it also minimizes our impact on the environment as well. Plants either grow and die fast or live long but produce new fruit every season. So it's difficult to overeat a plant species into extinction. Whereas it's all too easy to do that with animals, which have longer growth periods, and are usually just killed for their flesh, not some replenishable food product they keep producing. Just look at all the animals on endangered species lists right now. Now compare that to endangered plants.

prana
07-28-2001, 03:52 AM
Nexus and Origenx

Thanks for both your replies.

Well regarding germs and Viruses and worms in the body, even mosquitoes.
1. It is written in Buddhist history, that Buddha in one of his past lifes was a snake, and remained hungry as a snake to not eat the flesh of other animals. (I am not sure where I have been taught this one, it was a long time ago)
2. It is also thought that Ananda offered himself to a hungry animals as food out of compassion.
3. It is often referred to by many lamas that worms are manifestations of our negative kamma as we have, in the process of our lives, caused them to lose their source of food. They did not mean to be reborned in the intestinal tracts of another living being.
Some Tibetans refuse to take worm medicines, others until a great deal of "cleansing" has been performed for these little creatures
4. Mosquitoes, and other animals that bite, are the natural kamma both on ours and on their sides. Some animals are borned with instincts to not just eat flesh, but eat flesh of their own species... And we are eaten by these animals (or bitten) because we have somehow hurt them in our past lives and repaying our debts to them...


Just food for thought.... not to say whether it is wrong or right. Anybody else care to comment or have more to add ?
:)

fiercest tiger
07-28-2001, 01:15 PM
we are the only species that has a guilty or a conscious, thats why you feel like that!:) im a taoist and dont kill anything, i have a guilty conscious and i hate it! :( thats why we can become enlightened we have a chance to understand our wrong doings and follow the correct path then we are on the road to enlightening onself.

i eat meat and vegies, but trying to give up meat is hard for me as i was brought up with steak every **** night! i will succseed.... ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

Gluteus Maximus
07-29-2001, 01:18 PM
I kill sparingly, humanely and quickly.

I kill for three reasons: 1) to eat; 2) to put dying animals out of pain; 3) hygiene and health.

I don't enjoy killing at all, but have no qualms taking the life of a wild animal for food. That animal has had a far better quality of life than pigs or cattle kept in feedlots, who are fed on hormones and other feed developed in laboratories for the purpose of achieving maximum growth in the fastest possible time.

One thing anyone who eats meat must face up to is that their demand for meat means that they are indirectly responsible for the killing of animals. It makes no difference to the animals whether you kill them with your own hands or pay someone else to kill them on your behalf.

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

shaolinboxer
07-29-2001, 09:22 PM
It is the natural order of things for life to consume life.

prana
07-30-2001, 02:30 AM
only in the lower realms it seems. See instinctial patterns of being an animal.

dave the dragon
07-30-2001, 11:59 AM
I am of the belief that every sentient being seeks happiness and wants to avoid suffering and so I choose not to impose that suffering onto the animals,after all every animal experiences pain I believe i have no right to cause them that pain.

but i also appreciate that not everybody thinks like this and although it has been a while now i do just about remember how good a steak used to taste.

everybody is different ,and so has different views

harry_the_monk
07-30-2001, 12:29 PM
1.)I have had a gradual process of giving up first red meat, then all land meat, and about a month ago gave up fish also... I did it as I see that if I can survive without being part of killing animals, I will... I have from time to time an egg maybe from a free-range chicken, this is to keep my omega-3 levels in my body, and the milk products I use are organic (which I need for my B-vitamins)

2.) I am concerned for all living beings in everything I do, it is part of being in the moment I think Prana when you are aware of the suffering you may be causing through your actions. Remember it is intention that seperates our acts from being good or bad karma..i.e. an animal 'stealing' our food is not causing bad karma as it is satisfying a need and has no intention of doing us harm.

3.) Plants are living things also, but then we must look at the re-birth cycle...the way I have been told,it is thought that the re-birth cycle is highest at man and gradually diminishes down to plant life, although I do not fully understand this concept yet.

4.) I am interested in learning what prayers you can say in the rectifying of karma when you realise you have accidentily killed. As sometimes I do feel guilty, although I have not even swatted a fly for a long time now, and sort of feel more peace with all the crwatures around me (even the scary ones :) )


Just a little help for all you vegetatian hopeful meat eaters...
When I crave meat(as sometimes I do, I was a BIG meat eater b4 giving up, and cycling home past loads of take-aways doesn't make it easy) what I do is use Marmite or some other yeast spread alternative(veggiemite i think in aust.) I spread it thick in a sandwich and normally that gets rid of my desire for the meat(which I think is just the body craving B-vitamins).

Peace...

prana
07-30-2001, 12:54 PM
Thank you for your responses. I will try and recover those mantras that help bring those animals a better rebirth, and once I get them I shall post them here.

prana
07-30-2001, 01:01 PM
Harry the Monk,

The life cycle as taught by Padmasambhava, is that, from highest to lowest orders...

1. The god realm
2. The titans realm
3. The human realm
4. The animal realm
5. The hungry ghosts
6. The hot and cold hells


Dave the Dragon, that is inspring. Thanks

harry_the_monk
07-30-2001, 06:01 PM
Well, thanx Prana, sorry if I gave out the wrong idea in my post earlier, but that was the way I understood it from what I was told. :)
Look forward to the posting of the mantras also... :)
so humans aren't the plane b4 nirvana then?
and where do plants appear on the cycle?
Looks like I need to find a teacher :)

Peace...

Nexus
07-30-2001, 06:51 PM
makes me hungry.. *Removes large, medium-rare porthouse steak, previously soaked in barb-q sauce with special seasoning from the fridge*

*places on grill, listening to the sizzle of the fat into the coals below*

*removes steak from grill, places on plate and begins eating the medium-rare flesh slowly*

Yum!

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

shaolinboxer
07-30-2001, 11:05 PM
Take your cult and walk.

prana
07-31-2001, 02:11 AM
Sometimes I do have fun with trolling people who do eat meat (I am not as cool and collected as some here have shown they are), but I do not want to do that here because you guys arent bored unemployed looking for hours to kill.

I am sorry you feel that this is a cult. I am not shove this down your throat, but similarly, you do not have to click on this link.

Me thinx its your own conscious you r trying to push away. That is your own kamma calling from within.

prana
07-31-2001, 02:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> sorry if I gave out the wrong idea in my post earlier, but that was the way I understood it from what I was told.
Look forward to the posting of the mantras also...
so humans aren't the plane b4 nirvana then?
and where do plants appear on the cycle?
Looks like I need to find a teacher [/quote]

I don't think you gave the wrong idea. The beings that find it easiest to reach enlightenment is the human realm. Owing to the balance of good and bad, the human kind is constantly reminded that life is suffering. We are also given the intelligence and wisdom to discover the true meaning of life.

Where as the god realm and the formless realm are free from sufferings such as sickness, hunger etc and have extremely long lifes (in eons) that when their good kammas are lived off, they have forgotten how they gotten the rewards in the first place and usually are reborned in the helll realms. This is why we as humans shall not dwell in pride.

As for the titans, they are not happy with what they have and are constantly looking at the gods and jealous of them. WHen their kammas are lived off, they are reborned in the hungry ghost realms for the constant jealousies.

Discourses from Lama Yeshe...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"At the time of death, the person who is going to be born in the hot hell realm feels very cold. That’s not due to the climate or any other
external factors—it’s not that generally the country is very cold or that the person doesn’t have enough to wear or enough bedding. It’s not a
question of that. Of course, even those things are determined by karma,
[/quote]
...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The hot hells are like that. Now the cold hells. At the time of death, the process is that, even if the weather where you are is extremely cold, if you’re in a very cold place, due to your karma, if you are going to be born in the cold hell realms, you feel unbelievably hot and experience incredible craving for cold, to be cool; you have much craving for the pleasure of feeling cool. Then, with that craving, you die, and then—like
after going to sleep, you dream—the intermediate stage happens, and then—like waking from a dream—the karmic appearance of the cold hell manifests. [/quote]


...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Many insects were dying and we didn’t seem to have much choice about killing them. I was telling the others in the car, “We are creating many, many causes to be born in the Gathering and Crushing Hell.” The Gathering and Crushing Hell is the third of the hot hells, where you are crushed between huge mountains shaped like the heads of the animals or
human beings you have killed. You are crushed between the mountains, your blood gushes out like a waterfall, then you revive and are crushed
all over again. This goes on and on for an inconceivable length of time, until the karma is exhausted. I said, “I think we are creating many causes to be in that hell realm.” [/quote]

Some manatras I could find...
OM PEMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHET. - Couldnt find the deity associated with the Mantra
OM MANI PADME HUM - Buddha Avalokiteshevra
OM TRE TSARA GHANA HUNG HRIH SOHA


I have yet to find out where plants are in this plane of life.... any one knows ?

joedoe
07-31-2001, 03:10 AM
Prana is not talking about a cult, unless you want to call Tibetan Buddhism a cult.

harry_the_monk, as I understand it (in Tibetan Buddhism), Humans are not the level before Nirvana, but rather have the best opportunity to reach Nirvana.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Gluteus Maximus
07-31-2001, 05:17 AM
Just curious :)

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

joedoe
07-31-2001, 05:38 AM
It's a sword :)

Let your eyes blur a little and you will see it is a sword with the tip pointing to the right. Kind of like a Roman short sword. If you have seen Gladiator, it is kind of like the sword Maximus has at the start of the movie ;)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Fish of Fury
07-31-2001, 06:11 AM
one of my favourite stories about vegetarianism etc.
(supposedly true for those of you who are open to such things)

A Buddhist master was hosting a dinner.one of the guests had only recently adopted buddhism and was trying very hard to apply it's principles to his life...consequently he was shocked to find that this highly respected master was piling up his plate with huge quantities of meat.
the guest repeatedly questioned the master on this, expressing his horror that a buddhist could be responsible for killing so many animals.the master said nothing until finally towards the end of the evening he took the guest to one side and tapped him on the head.the guest then saw all the souls of the animals on the table floating peacefully up to heaven, allieviated of their karma as that animal, ready to be reborn "higher"

the master said "if you can do that, eat meat. if not, you'd better be vegetarian"

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

prana
07-31-2001, 06:55 AM
Fish

I know of a man who calls himself a Buddha (???) based in Taiwan and his words exactly like that.

His teachings are very different from those of whom practises his lineage (the lineage he claims to practise). I have even seen him criticise Tibetan lamas so I really don't listen to his discourses...

joedoe
07-31-2001, 07:01 AM
Maybe he actually punched him in the head and what the guy saw was stars.

Just kidding. :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Gluteus Maximus
07-31-2001, 10:11 AM
Oh yeah! Good one! :) Don't know why I couldn't see it before (I was thinking maybe it was some kind of belt!) :rolleyes:

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

dave the dragon
07-31-2001, 12:39 PM
Nexus: very good !The steak scenario nearly got me .I was half way to the local supermarket to go and buy half a pound of rump when I manged to control myself!
Lyle: The Dalai Lama could hardly be described as a cult fanatic now could h?! IMHO he is the Human being everyone should aspire to.


Eating meat is a choice that I believe everyone has the right to .I would not imply that a meat eater is wrong and i am right, if eating meat attributes to happiness for that individual then full strength to them i wish them the best of luck.
Abandit i idg the sword thing man. its one of those funny things that at first you cant see, until it is pointed out and now ill see it every time.

harry_the_monk
07-31-2001, 01:56 PM
Thank-you Prana, that makes more sense to me now, although I guess I will never grasp it all until the time of my enlightenment. Thank-you for the mantras...is it true that the best time to say a mantra is b4 you go to bed at night..in a kind of purifying of the days bad kamma? How many times would you suggest saying a mantra?
ABandit, I think that was how I first understood it, but had trouble explaining it :)

kungfu cowboy
07-31-2001, 03:20 PM
Yeah, it is a bummer that life feeds on life. But its not our fault; we didn't design the universe. (I do wish somebody would eat Bob Villa though)

Nexus
07-31-2001, 06:56 PM
Thats all there is too it! And it is good for you (protien).

A good filet minion` always goes well with a nice red wine.

Happy Feastings!

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

origenx
07-31-2001, 07:32 PM
prana - so Buddhism basically asserts that "bad things happen to to good people" because its karmic retribution? Well, then how do u know that me squashing a mosquito to death isn't justified karmic retribution aginst the mosquito as well? Couldn't it work both ways then? FYI, karma has been big on my mind lately, and I wonder if it's really true, or just the Eastern version of the Western "scare tactic" of Heaven/H*ll for social behavioral control.

I really do want to know for a fact one way or the other...!

Nexus
07-31-2001, 10:44 PM
The path of karma and dharma are paths towards enlightenment, not scare tactics. One path, being karma says things like, what you do comes back 10xfolds in this life or the next etc etc. The path of Dharma, the one I am more inclined towards although neither is one I currently practice states basically you are accepting of all things and do all things you can to be righteous, virtous, pious, noble, have integrity etc. Basically the second path you do not expect to have good things from doing good things, nor do you expect bad things from doing bad things, you simply accept all things and allow them to flow naturally.

There is lots of good and bad articles of this on the internet. Do some reading, you might learn something (scary thought!).

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

prana
08-01-2001, 02:22 AM
origenx :)

By squashing a mossie, you may be replenishing the mossie's bad kamma which it had collected in the past, perhaps past lifes, but you choose to not allow that mosquitoe to become your guru, your path to enlightenment, and you are allowing that mosquitoe as a source of bad kamma.
Does that make sense ? An alternative, is to allow that mosquito to bite you, and you sacrifice a little of your blood for its well being, at the same time, you remove a whole lot of your "self", or bad kamma, thanks to the mossie.
However, I am not saying that you should sit there and be feasted by a pile of mosquitoes, but just so you survive and everyday life.
Alternatively, coming from a VERY Mosquitoe infested country, (tropics) you could just swing your hand and shew them away. This is not what I did when I was a kid, but I know better now.
I am not sure how you can humanely make them GO AWAY....(???) someone else may help here...

HARRY :)

I am not sure exactly when these mantras are to be said. I know the mantra belonging to Chenresig (On Mani Padme Hum, tibetan pronounce = Om Mani Pemme Hung) can be said anytime, is very powerful. Om Mani Padme Hung is to be said at least 21 times...
But I am not fluent with Mantra's. perhaps someone here could help. It is also the reason why I prompted the questions in the first place :) I hope you understand.

Dave The Dragon
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eating meat is a choice that I believe everyone has the right to .I would not imply that a meat eater is wrong and i am right, if eating meat attributes to happiness for that individual then full strength to them i wish them the best of luck.
[/quote]
And in your words, I apologise to those whom I have offended through the posting of this thread... Thanks again. I want to be able to see things your way.

Some other words of wisdom that I wish to post here, which I thought was incredibly powerful...

With the thought of attaining enlightenment
For the welfare of beings,
Who are more precious than a wish-fulfilling jewel,
I will constantly practice holding them dear.

Whenever I am with others,
I will practice seeing myself as the lowest of all
And from the very depth of my heart,
I will respectfully hold others as supreme.

In all actions, I will examine my mind
And the moment a disturbing attitude arises,
Endangering myself and others,
I will firmly confront and avert it.

Whenever I meet a person of bad nature
Who is overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering,
I will hold such a rare one dear,
As if I had found a precious treasure.

When others, out of jealousy,
Mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on,
I will practice accepting defeat
And offering the victory to them.

When someone I have benefitted
And in whom I have placed great trust
Hurts me very badly,
I will practice seeing that person as my supreme teacher.

In short, I will offer directly and indirectly
Every benefit and happiness to all beings, my mothers.
I will practice in secret taking upon myself
All their harmful actions and sufferings.

Without these practices being defiled by the stains of the eight worldly concerns,
By perceiving all phenomena as illusory,
I will practice without grasping to release all beings
From the bondage of the disturbing, unsubdued mind and karma

Long Mantra of Chenresig (Buddha of Compassion)
namo ratna trayaya - namo arya gyana sagara - berotsana buha radzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - namo sarwa tatagatebhye - arhatebhye - samyaksam buddhebhye - namo arya awalokite - shoraya - bodhi satoya - maha satoya - maha karunikaya - tayata - om - dara dara - diri diri - duru duru - itte wate - tsale tsale - partsale partsale - kusume kusume ware - ihli mili - tsiti dzola - ahpanaye soha

http://www.fpmt-osel.org/meditate/images/padmehum.jpg

[This message was edited by prana on 08-01-01 at 05:42 PM.]

prana
08-01-2001, 02:30 AM
Nexus,

I used to do a lot of bouldering, I saw no holds and decided the only way out of this cliff is to jump for whatever is above.

Nothing...

For a split second, my whole life ran before me. Instantly, that was my kamma, and I understood it.

I broke some bones but that was it, but the lesson I learnt was priceless, and worth the stack.

___

But that is MY realisation, I cannot speak for you, you need to find it yourself. I cannot convince you of something that is true to only myself :(
And that goes for all the things I say on this board. However I understand it, it is only my (own selfish) perception. There are many wise people here on this board, and I like reading all of their responses, their thoughts... it is a different door into the same room. And as I see it, people here have good intentions, and so I rant on and on...

[This message was edited by prana on 08-01-01 at 05:43 PM.]

Nexus
08-01-2001, 02:48 AM
after reading the above, I ran outside and jumped off of my porch (24 1/2ft) and landed on my feet, completing it with a summersault and standing up and moving into the form 'White Crane Spreads Wings'.

It is strange how nature did not decide to 'Repulse This Monkey'.

Ok. I made the above up :) just to shed some light on the topic!

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

joedoe
08-01-2001, 03:26 AM
Rather than retribution, see karma as learning lessons. Your soul must learn lessons in its path to perfection, and as you do things in life your sould builds up a kind of account of things it has to learn to advance along its path. That is karma. If you do not learn it this lifetime, then you have to learn it in the next. If you take the mosquito's life before it has learned its lesson, you deprive it of its chance to learn its lesson and so you build up a karmic debt to that mosquito.

That's the way I see it anyway :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Nexus
08-01-2001, 05:28 AM
basically you see doing good deeds as taking out loans to pay off your debt?

"loans"

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

joedoe
08-01-2001, 06:27 AM
No, good deeds are more like working hard to make money to pay off a debt, not taking out a loan to pay off a debt :).

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Gluteus Maximus
08-01-2001, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Alternatively, coming from a VERY Mosquitoe infested country, (tropics) you could just swing your hand and shew them away. This is not what I did when I was a kid, but I know better now.
I am not sure how you can humanely make them GO AWAY....(???) someone else may help here..." [/quote]

I've spent quite a bit of time working out bush in the Northern Territory over the past few years. When you shooed one away, a hundred would take its place! :eek: I had bites on top of bites - literally thousands on each arm. :mad: They seemed to eat personal repellant. :confused: We slept under mosquito nets but a few still managed to find their way in, and if any part of your body brushed against the net during the night, you'd wake up with a dozen or so bites on that small area of skin. :( Lying in your swag, the screeching sound of thousands of mosquitos trying to get at you was almost deafening! :eek:

Faced with this onslaught, it's hard not to kill hundreds of the little buggérs, just so you can hold onto at least a modicum of sanity! We tried citronella, which didn't help much at all. Mosquito coils work quite well, cutting down the number of bites from hundreds per night to just a dozen or so.

Buddhism might work though. I'll give it a try next time and let you know (just kidding!) ;)

Oh, did I mention that lots of the bites get infected and can turn into tropical ulcers? :eek:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "If you take the mosquito's life before it has learned its lesson, you deprive it of its chance to learn its lesson and so you build up a karmic debt to that mosquito." [/quote]

I'm dead meat then, if the little bast*rds ever decide to come back for payment!!! :D [/QUOTE]

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

Gluteus Maximus
08-01-2001, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Alternatively, coming from a VERY Mosquitoe infested country, (tropics) you could just swing your hand and shew them away. This is not what I did when I was a kid, but I know better now.
I am not sure how you can humanely make them GO AWAY....(???) someone else may help here..." [/quote]

I've spent quite a bit of time working out bush in the Northern Territory over the past few years. When you shooed one away, a hundred would take its place! :eek: I had bites on top of bites - literally thousands on each arm. :mad: They seemed to eat personal repellant. :confused: We slept under mosquito nets but a few still managed to find their way in, and if any part of your body brushed against the net during the night, you'd wake up with a dozen or so bites on that small area of skin. :( Lying in your swag, the screeching sound of thousands of mosquitos trying to get at you was almost deafening! :eek:

Faced with this onslaught, it's hard not to kill hundreds of the little buggérs, just so you can hold onto at least a modicum of sanity! We tried citronella, which didn't help much at all. Mosquito coils work quite well, cutting down the number of bites from hundreds per night to just a dozen or so.

Buddhism might work though. I'll give it a try next time and let you know (just kidding!) ;)

Oh, did I mention that lots of the bites get infected and can turn into tropical ulcers? :eek:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "If you take the mosquito's life before it has learned its lesson, you deprive it of its chance to learn its lesson and so you build up a karmic debt to that mosquito." [/quote]

I'm dead meat then, if the little bast*rds ever decide to come back for payment!!! :D

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

prana
08-01-2001, 07:50 AM
Gluteous Maximus,

you make a good point! I definitely am not saying that you shoud just sit there and let yourself be eaten by the mosquitoes. This is where I am ignorant and wish someone knew of an answer.

Buddhism is also about keeping once body in good shape, ie. ensuring good health since your body is considered a temple...therefore should be kept healthy and clean.

So what is the answer ?? (This is why I posted this question in the first place)

And how do these monks do it ? I went to the Tiger Cave temple in Thailand, and I saw little huts by the forest, where monks sleep. No more than a hut about 2 square meters with some wood.

Even in the daytime, we were being consumed by mosquitoes. And day and night, monks walk the forests of Thailand practising walking meditation. How do they survive the wild animals ? The bites of snakes ? Or do they radiate so much compassionate energy that they never get beaten (This is something I heard of powerful monks and yogins) even by the hungriest of tigers...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

prana
08-01-2001, 08:12 AM
Too achieve liberation from samsara there are five paths: the path of accumulating merits, the preparatory path, the right seeing path, the path of meditation and the path of no more learning. To be liberated from samsara is to achieve arhatship.
By achieving the right seeing path we remove 112 delusions to do with the desire realm, form realm and formless realm. Then through the path of meditation one removes sixteen obscurations and delusions. With this one attains arhatship. That's nirvana in the sense of having ceased completely all the causes of suffering, karma and delusion.
However, there are still obscurations, but they are very subtle. They obstruct the arhat's mind even though he has tremendous psychic powers. Unlike the Buddha, the arhat is not able to see directly everything at the same time. An arhat does not have an omniscient mind; that's the quality of a buddha, one who has completely destroyed all subtle obscurations.
In Mahayana teachings, wisdom arises when all obscurations are removed, not only gross obscurations but even the subtle ones. The wisdom to remove the subtle obscurations comes through the development of bodhicitta. With this the wisdom realizing emptiness is able to destroy the subtle obscurations. It's like washing cloth. First you wash the black, dirty part. Then there is still some smell and stain left. Even that is washed. Eventually the cloth becomes completely cleaned. It becomes as clear as a mirror. We all have the buddha nature in our mind when the subtle obscurations are removed.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

dave the dragon
08-01-2001, 12:26 PM
hmmmm! an interesting one.Of course there is the arguement that the mosquitoes are only trying to feed and that what they are doing is for survival , just the same as humans eating meat!and that there intention is to eat not to annoy you but to survive intended for animals of that capability.
Also that when the state of inner peace that arises from wishing happinees to all living things and for all living things to avoid suffering these creatures would become less annoying to you.
But then its easy for me to say i live near London and we dont have the weather to attract mosquitoes all that often let alone thousands in such close proximity!!
:D

dave the dragon
08-01-2001, 12:35 PM
please could you let me know where you aquired that text from, if you would be so kind? :D :D :eek: :rolleyes:

oh and by the way arent these little smiley face things cool!

harry_the_monk
08-01-2001, 03:09 PM
I read somewhere that a lot of the monks that live in areas infested with snakes inject themselves with the snake venom to build up an immunity to it, they can then 'earn their keep' so to speak by ridding the villages of these highly poisonous snakes.
Found it on another forum under a question about Right Livelihood. Sorry but lost the link.
Don't know how that would work with mossies though... Maybe there is a herb or something which repels them harmlessly?(I'll try a question on the medicine board?)

Peace...

Fu-Pow
08-01-2001, 07:34 PM
I am a pesco-lacto-ovo-insecto(yes, I insecto, I just had ant soup) vegetarian. I don't eat birds or mammals. Let me put it this way. It is healthier to eat lower down on the food chain. This is a biological fact. But if I was in a situation where it was me vs. some animal, I'd have no problem chopping that animal up and making a hearty stew. You've got to do, what you've got to do. Just my two cents.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Nexus
08-01-2001, 09:08 PM
There are many sources that will say that it is not necessarily healthier to eat lower down on the food chain. In fact, you can live a long healthy life eating meats and birds. It hasn't been but 70 years or so that people in the West even had a choice. If you lived in an area with a supermarket, you would eat what you could get, from the local farms/agriculture etc.

Picky Picky Picky...

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

shaolinboxer
08-01-2001, 09:12 PM
CULT:

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Nexus
08-01-2001, 10:13 PM
in general is a cult. The leaders of the cult encourage us to be consumers and we go beyond the call of duty :-)

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

BAI HE
08-01-2001, 11:27 PM
Don't mean to be a dick here, but exactly what do you think some of these animals would do to you if they were at the top of the food chain?

Ther aren't many animals (especially mammals) that do not engage in Cannabilism.

Scott R. Brown
08-02-2001, 12:15 AM
Gentlemen,

I thought I would stay out of this one, but it is getting very interesting.

On the topic of mosquitoes, if you sit in the smoke of your campfire they will leave you alone. Of course you have to inhale the smoke, but that is better than being eaten alive. I have heard that if you eat garlic they will stay away from you too. I do not mean the old vampire remedy of hanging garlic around your neck. I received this information from a relatively credible source. I cannot remember where though and I have never actually tried it because eating garlic will keep just about everyone else away from you too. It might be worth a try if you are out in the bush. Years ago I read a book about an American Indian Medicine Man named Rolling Thunder. The author of the book was eaten by mosquitoes, Rolling Thunder was not. Rolling Thunder implied it had to do with your state of mind. The theory is that certain states of mind release different hormones in the body that are sensed by the animal. That is how dogs can smell tumors and fear in people. These conditions cause certain chemicals to emit from your body. The same condition is probably what keeps dangerous animals from injuring monks. I have a friend who, when he was about 3-4 years of age, picked up as diamondback rattlesnake and brought it in the house to show his mom. His mom, showing extreme self-control, calmly said, “Yes dear, very nice. Now take it outside please”. The innocence of children frequently protects them from dangerous animals.

Think of Karma as cause and effect. Every action has consequences that ripple out from it like a stone dropped into a pond. These effects occur on two levels, the physical plane and the spiritual plane. The effects of actions on the physical plane are relatively obvious. The effects of actions on the spiritual plane are not so obvious. It is not the action that affects the spiritual plane it is the attitude with which the action was performed and the emotional attachment to the action or its results. It is not what you do, but why you do it. The same action is acceptable or unacceptable depending on the reasons it is performed and Karmic debt is acquired relative to the emotional attachment the individual has. The following example is one of my favorites.

A samurai’s benefactor was killer by another samurai. The samurai pursued the villain and cornered him. As he was about to be killed, the villain spit in the samurai’s face. The samurai sheathed his sword and walked away. He could no longer kill the villain with a clear conscience. Before he was spit upon the samurai’s actions were motivated by honor and justice. The samurai code of honor and the laws of the society were the guides for his actions. After being spit upon he became personally insulted and angry. His actions would have been motivated by personal vengeance because of the insult. Therefore, his actions would not have been just, they would have been personal.


Actions in and of themselves are neither right or wrong it is reason that we perform the actions that determine whether they are correct or not.

On the spiritual plane, attitudes that you have when you die will be the attitudes you had when you lived. Those attitudes will accompany you wherever you go after death and will affect your experiences. Just as if you have certain attitudes right now and moved to another city, those attitudes would follow you and affect your experiences in the new city. This is what Karma is, the consequences of attitudes and emotional attachments that follow you after death, because they are with you at the time of death.

While the refusal to take another life needlessly, is a noble behavior. It is not necessarily a higher spiritual level. This situation is comprehensively addressed in the Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna is the main character. He is the greatest warrior of the Pandava clan whose kingdom has been usurped through the dishonest machinations of their cousins the Kaurava clan. Before the final battle of the war between the clans Arjuna rides out to the battlefield with his charioteer Krishna, who is God incarnate. Arjuna laments the injustice of being put in a position of having to kill his friends and relatives for the ownership of a kingdom. He is contemplating allowing himself to be killed rather than perpetrate an unjust act. Krishna teaches Arjuna many things, what pertains specifically to our topic is this, since everything is ultimately spirit, and the spirit is indestructible and eternal, no one is actually killed. It is not the act of killing that is wrong it is that act of killing for egocentric reasons and with emotional attachment to the results of killing that is wrong. The damage of unjust killing is to the performer of the unjust killing not the person killed. We are mere actors on the stage of life. Just as the actors survive the play people survive their life. As actors it is our responsibility to perform our roles dispassionately. That is without emotional attachment to the actions or the results of the actions we perform. It is the emotional attachment to actions and their results that causes Karma.

By extension, eating meat is neither higher nor lower on the spiritual plane. The emotional attachment to the need for either yourself or others to eat or abstain from eating meat will cause the Karmic debt, not the eating of meat in and of itself.

I am not saying that it is foolish to eat be a vegetarian. If that is your path and it works for you great!! The same goes for eating meat. I am merely saying that eating meat is not a lesser spiritual state than vegetarianism and a meateater does not acquire Karmic debt because of his actions.

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
08-02-2001, 01:54 AM
Great to have you back on the forum, I hope your move went well!

Hopefully it was not an emotional attachment which drove you to make the previous post.

;) Just giving you a hard time buddy, great post!

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

prana
08-02-2001, 02:03 AM
Bai-He

It is instinctual for animals to eat their own kind, out of their own ignorance. In general, Buddhist try not to be reincarnated in the animal realm. Once there, Buddhist regards the reincarnation again to the human realm as a grain of sand in all the oceans of the world.

Then again, if you believe...

Lyle, and those who find this thread disturbing.
My sincerest apologies to you all. This is not a cult, the word with its negative connotation. In fact, Buddha specifically taught you should not listen to his words, or take anything literally. As Scott has explained elsewhere, Buddhism is a path of experience. When you experience and see it for yourself, then you believe in it, otherwise, you discover for yourself. Like I said, you are all smart and intellectual people, not bored housewives. This is not here to shove crap down your throat. It is for those who have chosen to become vegetarian or even considering it.

Buddha taught only for those people who wish to learn, to remain conscious of the breath (Mahayanna teachings). Simple as that, and any realisations that you get out of that, is your own benefit and belief.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

joedoe
08-02-2001, 03:14 AM
The difference between a cult and a religion is mainstream acceptance. Buddhism is accepted as a religion. Just like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. etc. etc.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Scott R. Brown
08-02-2001, 04:03 AM
Not only that Buddhism is considered one of the GREAT religions. Buddhism came before Christianity and Islam. Buddhism has divided into many different sects. Buddha was not sure he wanted to teach what he had learned when he reached Nirvana because it was too difficult to explain. Words cannot adequately explain an experience. Each sect of any religion is a development from men interjecting their own thoughts and experiences into the religion. Some claim divine revelation to justify their changes. The purpose of spirituality is for the person to bring themselves into accord with the divine, not to impose our own will on the divine. However, since each person is a unique individual with his own talents, interests and perspectives, we will each interpret and express our spiritual experiences in our own unique manner. Therefore we end up with offshoots of religions. Because a sect is an offshoot does not necessarily invalidate its message. I personally care less what religion a person follows, I look for sincerity and commitment to the spiritual path. If sincerity and commitment are present we will all meet at the common goal regardless of where we each began. If it is important to Prana and others to not eat meat and it helps them in their spiritual journey, then it is a good path for them to follow. It hurts no one. Vegetarians have a right to express their opinion as well as everyone else. I think that the tendency for vegetarians to believe they are somehow more spiritually advanced than meat eaters is what offends some people. Remember that Christ, Moses and Muhammad were all meat eaters.

Nexus,

Thank you for the welcome back and the elbow in the ribs. The move was grueling. I slept 14 hours last night because of all the exercise I received moving everything, not mention the dehydration due to the heat. I will send you a list of books in a day or two, if you are still interested. E-mail me your address.

Sincerely,

Scott

Fish of Fury
08-02-2001, 06:01 AM
repelling mossies with the mind...

i believe if you are truly resolved to not harm the mossies, to not generate karma with them , then perhaps your state of mind will reach them and they'll leave you alone.(this would be ideal)

HOWEVER, i think you must be really resolved...that if they do bite you and you get malaria you will accept it as your own karma and not feel bitter.if you're not so resolved it's better to take steps to keep them away (or yes, even kill them i think), otherwise you may generate even more negativity.

we live in an (arguably) imperfect world.we must take life of some kind to live (even if it's vegetables)...if we don't we'll starve and take our own life.
so...life is painful and difficult.
if we do the best we can with good intentions we can improve (maybe one day even transcend the need for food), but i think we need to accept that things aren't ideal, otherwise if you try to be perfect and can't you'll just generate more dissatisfaction and make it less likely we'll progress.

the middle path applies here too i believe.
1)if we take life without thought, that's "bad"
2)if we become totally obsessed with taking no life at all we may get disturbed and make no progress/ be less useful in the world

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

prana
08-02-2001, 06:03 AM
Amen to that !

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

Fish of Fury
08-02-2001, 06:06 AM
another story...

a tibetan monk was giving a sermon on loving kindness, compassion.loving all creatures, doing no harm, not killing etc.
when he finished and went to leave there was a dog lying in the doorway...
...so he kicked it in the guts and it ran away yelping.

thoughts?
(BTW i've heard this as a traditional story, and also spoken to someone who said it actually happened when he was studying buddhism )

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Fish of Fury
08-02-2001, 06:10 AM
now all i need to do is apply that in my own life and i'll be laughing!
( the balance, not the dog kicking)
__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

prana
08-02-2001, 06:14 AM
that is depressing :(

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

joedoe
08-02-2001, 06:28 AM
I find that kind of funny actually :) Maybe the dog was listening to the lesson?

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Fish of Fury
08-02-2001, 11:13 AM
well, i think there's a number of possibilities...

1) he was an arsehole
2) it was a lesson in not taking any viewpoint to extremes/accepting we live in an imperfect world and cannot always do the right thing
3) a lesson in not judging by the superficial
4) sometimes if a dog gets in your way you've just gotta kick it to get it to move

maybe it was a form of zen direct transmission
or maybe he just liked kicking dogs

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

prana
08-02-2001, 02:16 PM
Fish,

I like no.4 I have heard that Zen masters know exactly when to hit you so that youi suddenly achieve realisation ? Perhaps Scott or Nexus will be able to explain that about Zen...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

TjD
08-02-2001, 03:58 PM
well the experience of physical pain, gets us to snap out of our wandering thoughts and directly experience the moment, albiet shortly

so in a sense, when your in meditation and your mind is wandering, and the zen master walks by and hits you upside the head with his stick; your momentarily enlightened because your are totally experiencing the moment

we're all enlightened, and we're all in nirvana - we just dont realize this :)

peace
trav

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

shaolinboxer
08-02-2001, 04:45 PM
Actually, I think buddhism, chirsitanity, whatever are fine. They all have good principals that can lead to personal developement and greater understading of and towards everyone and everything.

However, I have strong feelings about adhering to any specific doctrine. I understand that buddhism preaches that all of its preaching is meaningless, and I agree with that in a very buddhist sort of way.

Great danger lies waiting for many of those who use religion to enhance their personal realizations, becuase the doctrines of these religions are linked to individuals. Then these individuals become the source of personal relization, which can lead to loss of self and a lot of disappointment.

So, I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary.

dave the dragon
08-02-2001, 06:13 PM
a lot of people feel that way about the "flowery language" aspect.I think the thing thats important in religion is to take what you find useful and disregard what you do not . That is what i attempt to do there aspects of buddhism that I dont necessarily agree , this applies to christianity aswell and islam and hiduism etc.I think the flowery language may be a way of people trying to get across the passion they have for the religion that they follow and to some extent you cant really knock them for that it my opinion.

Anyway have good weekend everybody :)

dave the dragon
08-02-2001, 06:16 PM
Prana: Thanks for the sites , they are very informative , I am at work now and have printed them off and shall be reading them over the course of the weekend . :D

Nexus
08-02-2001, 08:39 PM
An ancient verse describes the Zen method, realization and transmission thus:

"A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters.
Directly pointing to the heart-mind.
Seeing into one's Nature, attaining Buddhahood."

Realization in the Zen idealism is this: Negation. Essentially the only way to come to any realization is to negate what we previously conceived as the truth. Example: You are raised thinking that people of a different color then your own are lesser of a people. One day you come to the Realization: That people are people, no matter what color they are, and should be treated as such without stereotype. What happened here? You negated your previously false "truth" and replaced it with a new one.

I suppose in this way, one could call the path to enlightenment the working through a series of paradigms. That is of course not exactly it, but certainly part of the process.

My explanation of negation is rather weak though but it is spoken of by several regarding Zen as well as even in the Meditations by Descartes. In regards to "negation" this was said by<font color="blue"> (John Steffeny):</font>
"The task of the Zen master is not to teach Self-Being but to convey that it cannot be taught, that no methodology is capable of bringing it about. By forcing the student to look within her/himself, however, for that mode which (though unactualized) has been there all along, the Zen master may be said to be teaching. This teaching which is a non-teaching is Zen's most unique pedagogy. Rarely will a Zen master say what Zen is but will inexorably express what it is not.

Zen, therefore, is a teaching by negation, negating everything that the student supposes Zen to be, hoping that the student will realize that by not being any particular thing, s/he is everything; and that by not being any particular self, s/he is selflessly all selves. Negation, thus, is an affirmation which is not acquired but which happens, which is awakened as naturally as ordinary consciousness, as though it had been there all along".

Any other questions?

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

prana
08-03-2001, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary. [/quote]

Lyle,

I don't quite understand what is ticking you off. But before you get upset, please know this, my english (and explaining skills) have NEVER been known to be at all good. In fact English is my 5th language (to include dialects).
Sad that you took my words as a cult, it is used in many a Buddhist texts, just sanskrit.
So I hope you can understand that I had never meant to offend you.
But thanks for reminding me that I have alienated some people here when I used such words as "prana" or "Boddhisattvas" etc.

Dave,

Pleasure is all mine!. I have not found better discourses anywhere, even if these discourses are just published on the net instead of in person.
Another great site, is at www.kalachakra.com (http://www.kalachakra.com)

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

Gluteus Maximus
08-04-2001, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Great danger lies waiting for many of those who use religion to enhance their personal realizations, becuase the doctrines of these religions are linked to individuals. Then these individuals become the source of personal relization, which can lead to loss of self and a lot of disappointment.

So, I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary. [/quote]


Lyle, I've tried hard to understand what you mean by these two paragraphs, but can't. No offense intended - what you are trying to say sounds like it might be interesting. I realise that certain concepts are often difficult to explain within the confines of language.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Lyle,

I don't quite understand what is ticking you off. But before you get upset, please know this, my english (and explaining skills) have NEVER been known to be at all good. In fact English is my 5th language (to include dialects).
Sad that you took my words as a cult, it is used in many a Buddhist texts, just sanskrit.
[/quote]


Prana, I wouldn't worry about your written English skills - they're better than a lot of native English speakers I know!

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

joedoe
08-05-2001, 07:37 AM
Glad we got that sorted out. So - who's for a nice steak? :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

harry_the_monk
08-06-2001, 06:01 PM
OMG...here we go again :rolleyes:

Peace... :D

Fish of Fury
08-07-2001, 08:50 AM
ABandit
let's not mince words, there may be more at steak than you realise.your opinion isn't much chop.it's really porkquality.
i'm gonna reVEAL your true motives and there's mutton you can do about it....
....oh, wait.wrong thread,sorry.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"