Palm vs fist

[SPJ]

So I was asked why is that the name of ba gua zhang and not ba gua quan?

I answered that any fighting system may be called a so and so fist.

ba gua uses palms more and thus it is named ba gua zhang instead of quan.

--

which you prefer to use fist or palm?

pros and cons?

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Both, why would you choose only one?

Usually this debate happens when people try to either "palm" with their fist, or "fist" with their palm.
The palm strike, the palm heel strike and a fist strike are, biomechanically, different.

[Drake]

biomechanically



Word of the week.

[TaichiMantis]

"biomechanically" I feel more confident with palm...:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Word of the week.

Don't I get some cash bonus for that?
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really biomechanics but relevant view perhaps...

http://www.sportales.com/Martial-Arts/Open...s-vs-Fist.28092

Open hand strikes vs. Fist

by AubreyDouglass, May 30, 2007
The pros and cons of fist strikes and open hand strikes.

Most police departments and military units around the world teach their personnel to use closed fists to strike their adveraries during hadnt to hand conflicts. Just look at any historical painting or sculpture of a warrior, and ou will see that for striking, the closed fist is preferred. However, there is a growing trnt in the civilian martial arts to use open hand strikes.

Several American and European Krav Maga students have recently come to a military officer to learn reality based personal protection. They tell him they were instructed to use open hand strikes, which he found odd. When he recently trained Israeli military personnel at the Wingate Institute in Netanya , Israel , the closed fist was the preferred striking implement fo rthe military Krav Maga and kapap systems.

He has also had some jeet kune do instructors tell me that in a real fight, an open hand strike is better than a closed fist. The military officer was one of Dan Inosanto's jeet kune do students back in teh 1970's, and we primarily used our fists when it came to arm strikes. Today, many systems are being diluted by martial artists who have never been in an actual fight. Nevertheless, they love to interject their theories about how to execute techniques despite having no historical or tactical basis for their ideas.

Based on his 15 years of experience as a police officer and recently as a counterterrorism agent fo rthe U.S. government, he can tgell you that most men use closed fists and most women use open hand strokes in a conflict. That is just the way men and women are wired. The pattern is not 100 percent, but it is a good general rule. Indeed, even trained male martial artists will resort to fists when they are losing a fight and panic sets in.

Advocates of open hand techniques say that a person runs a higher risk of breaking his hand if he strikes an opponent with a closed fist. Nonsense. When the hand is open, the fingers can be hyperextended, and the digits can get caught in air or clothing and get broken. However, clenching your fist makes a compact impact weapon, and the muscles and tendons in your wrist and figers are tighter than they would be for a open hand strike.

Whenever he hits someone with his fist, the last thing he worries aout is what kind of injuries he sustains. My primary focuz is the injuries he will inflict on his opponent. So what if eh breaks his knuckle or sprains his wrist? I can get it fixed later at the hospital. I canstill fight with my fists even with those injuries, but i may not fight as effectively if I break my finger using an open hand technique.

The next consideration in the closed fist vs. open hand debate involves that the polics and military communities call "stopping power." Would you rather be hit in the face by a closed fist of an open hand? He would pick the open hand. Yes, I might get injured if it lands just right, but if i move away slightly, I might be struck only by the fingets or the upper part of the palm, which is all soft tissue. Furthermore, an open hand strike has more surface area, which dissipates the blow's forve when contact is made.

The problem with getting hit by a fist, especially the index and the middle knuckles, is that a it is a body surace. And it is relatively small and penetrating, which means it can be devastating if only part of it lands. Do not take it wrong: There is a time and a place for open hand techniques, but only when you are in certain situations--such as defending yourself from an eye gouge or throat grab.

When it comes to fending off a real attacker who, for all you know, is out to kill you, use common sense and listen to the advice of those who have had to fight for their survival. Strike back with your fists.

[Black Jack II]

A large number of the war time close combat & self defense systems of the 40's and 50's taught open hand strikes. Palm heel, cupped hand blow, knife hand.

Closed fist strikes were used on the body. But again there were a good number of systems based on the instructor who used fists as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A large number of the war time close combat & self defense systems of the 40's and 50's taught open hand strikes. Palm heel, cupped hand blow, knife hand.

Closed fist strikes were used on the body. But again there were a good number of systems based on the instructor who used fists as well.

Pretty much, the old adage of "hard weapon/soft target and hard target/soft weapon" is not a rule, but a suggestion in many Okinawan systems.
It becomes more about what is more "natural" for the user.

[Lucas]

I like both.

Honestly though, I primarily train impact with fists. Bags and such.

So, per training, I believe my body is inclined towards fists. But I also really like to kick knees....so...

To bad I dont walk around with gauntlets on.....


on a side note: i dont go around picking fights, so if i get in one, it will be in defense of my self or another individual.

Ill take a broken hand, as it is a possiblity, to drop a fool that needs dropping.

Ill just try to use my right hand for head shots as I can hit things about twice or three times harder with my right fist than i can with my left.

[Shaolinlueb]

i prefer both. sanjuro_ronin gave some great examples. and speaks from exp.

[David Jamieson]

2.5 ft of steel pipe will do the job quicker and better than any hand form.

look for weapons, then use them. even with almost no training, you'll dominate. :-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

2.5 ft of steel pipe will do the job quicker and better than any hand form.

look for weapons, then use them. even with almost no training, you'll dominate. :-)

I'll see your 2.5 ft of pipe and raise you a 40" sch 80 pipe :D

[SanHeChuan]

I remember on a Discovery Documentary featuring Gene Lebell, he advocated an open hand strike.

It is erroneous to think that just because someone has military training they get the opportunity to use empty hand combat. :eek: If they are any good at what they do, they should never be in that position. After fire arms, you can use the weapon it's self to strike/club, then a K-bar (knife), then an E-tool (Shovel- if handy), then a weapon of opportunity...


Personally I doubt I'd ever use a open palm strike.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember on a Discovery Documentary featuring Gene Lebell, he advocated an open hand strike.

It is erroneous to think that just because someone has military training they get the opportunity to use empty hand combat. :eek: If they are any good at what they do, they should never be in that position. After fire arms, you can use the weapon it's self to strike/club, then a K-bar (knife), then an E-tool (Shovel- if handy), then a weapon of opportunity...


Personally I doubt I'd ever use a open palm strike.

I think Gene advocates open handed "hooking" palms, over closed fist hooks, no?
Less risk of hand damage and easier to go into grabbing.

[RAB]

When I clap...I use my deadly palms.

When I knock...I use my iron fist.

[shyphoenix]

Who doesn't like a good knife or ridge hand? I didn't realize it was a "woman" thing. Thanks, anonymous military officer.

[Becca]

plam, fist, wrist, elbow... what ever fits the range and flows out when I need it. I *try* to train all of them equally, but I must be honest, my fav is wrist and/or palm. And I don't realy hit much with a closed fist, even in training.

[hiddenmantis]

I'll use both depending on how things go ...

I'd say the palm is much better since I've broken my hands punching people so many times they hurt all the time now

on the bright side I still have all my teeth :D

[Seppukku]

This is the most intriguing conversation I've ever seen here, really. I mean, really.

I like to throw my ridge hands instead of jabs.

[BlueTravesty]

What is "both?"

I'll take Potent Potables for $400, Alex.