Overview clf history?

[Terrygrey]

Well, well ha ha ha ha......

Chasin-flank complex is at it again!

Quit the personal insults on EJ. Put out the evidence if you have any.

And frankie, don't you remember? How many years ago was it when you put up your little stories and were shut up in the face when your dates and other stuff kept contradicting, and you kept changing your story? Now your back at it again, are you hoping people don't remember your exploits?

Oh, itsn't it right, you went back and deleted a lot of those thread components afterwards, didn't you? Like when you made some silly open threats (do you want to go back to jail?)

Chasin-flank complex, no point trying to bring out a new co founder to clf. If your lineage don't have the goods, no amount of co founder pumping will make any quality difference, except perhaps mislead some people.

And before you go on yet another campaingn to step down on Chan Heung,
Let me remind you what frankie has already told us about HIS LINEAGE, from FRANKIE HIMSELF COURTESY OF HIS POSTS:

1. Lau bun clf has no traditional clf animal forms

2. lau bun clf has no internal clf forms or internal clf training.

3.lau bun clf has no traditional 18 clf wooden dummies but frankie thinks he can easily make some or one of them up if he wanted to, right frankie?

4.Lau bun clf has no clue on what was the internal and external (noi oi lim sou) of clf, yet frankie dares claim jeong yim co-founded clf with chan heung. Either jeong yim did not co-found clf (otherwise he should know, right?), or jeong yim knew but somewhere down the line lau bun never got the "full transmission", therefore frankie has no clue, right frankie? So which is it?

So don't bother chasin-flanking around the issue, put up the evidence or shut up. And don't bother with the personal insults either, because it doesn't bother me.
A further point, beating up 100 skillless, clumsiy loud mouths on the streets is no proof of a skilled kung fu practitioner,perhaps only proof of a thug. So chasin-flanking flanko complex, quit with your silly "how many fights" campaign, as we don't know the skill of your supposed "opponents", ok?

[hskwarrior]

hey i heard you almost sheet on your self when you received a certain phone call from a well known CLF master. I heard you apologized profusely as well.

how did that go for you?

hey, did you get a new arm yet?

[hskwarrior]

yes, i said it, now you eat it.

JEONG YIM WAS A CO-FOUNDER TO THE CHOY LEE FUT SYSTEM. NOW WHAT?

[hskwarrior]

Its Nice That Your Girl Friend Is Back To Defend You Joseph.

However, We Know About This One Armed Bandit, How His Clf Skills Suck Worse Than A Two Bit Hoor!


However, Joseph, Please Answer My Questions About The 16 Year Gap That Your Chan Family Records Support. Are You Going To Let This One Armed Wannabe Clf Master.........well He Kinda Falls Short Doesn't He? Its Cute How He Always Comes To Your Aid. Lovers! I Tell Ya.

Joseph, You Avoid Giving Me An Answer By Trying To Take The Light Off Of You.........answer That Question.

[Terrygrey]

Hey flankie,

Get your facts right! I'm not that one armed bandit guy, ok? What ever business you have with him, keep it between you and him.

You seem to think that everyone is kennyfist or one armed bandit? Are they even the same person or persons?
You don't have a clue do you?

If you make up enough garbage and start teaching it as genuine traditional stuff, does that make you a fraud? Have you made up your dummies and "clf animals" yet, or is dino doing it?

[hskwarrior]

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE HERE THAT TRIES TO BASH LAU BUN AND HIS PEOPLE.

YOUR M.O. IS SOOOOO OBVIOUS YOUR ONE ARMSMAN.

ACTUALLY, THE ONLY FRAUD IS YOU FOR TRYING TO POSE AS A CLF MAN. YOU SUCK.

"If you make up enough garbage and start teaching it as genuine traditional stuff, does that make you a fraud? Have you made up your dummies and "clf animals" yet, or is dino doing it?"

NOW LETS SEE IF HE ANSWERS THIS ONE....

YOUR CHAN FAMILY STUFF ORIGINALLY HAD AT THE MOST 49 FORMS, NOW THERE ARE OVER TWO HUNDRED. AND YOU ASK ME THE QUESTION, WHEN YOU KNOW YOU ARE THE FAKE ONE. HOW DID YOU GUYS GET OVER TWO HUNDRED FORMS? ALL DOING THE SAME STUFF AS ANOTHER FORM TOO.

HOW DID YOU COME TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF FORMS IN YOUR LINEAGE?

[hskwarrior]

鸿胜馆

鸿胜馆位于佛山市禅城区的福宁路祥安街15号。

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年），原称佛山蔡李佛武馆。光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主，改称鸿胜馆。鸿胜馆从成立到1949年闭馆的98年来，培育了陈盛、雷灿、黄 宽、李恩、陈 棉、李苏、谭立、张三炳、阮系, 钱维方、吴勤等武林英才，是中国成立时间最长、人数最多的武馆之一。

　　清末民初，佛山手工业受洋货冲击逐渐衰落，工人大量失业，社会动荡不安。资本家和黑社会组织控制了某些 武馆，并作为欺压工人的工具。大量的工人为了有所依靠和学武防身，纷纷加入设下"官吏不教、土豪恶霸不教、流氓地痞不教"诫条，只面向工人和小商贩等劳苦大众的鸿胜馆。继承张炎而任馆主的陈盛，对门徒管教甚严，在省港佛武术界中 声望甚高。至1921年，鸿胜馆发展至13间，陈盛列入名册的弟子超过3000人，整个鸿胜系统的成员则上 万人，成为当时中国最大的武馆。

　　鸿胜馆以青草和尚（陈享的师傅之一）传下来的拳术为主，名为内外八卦拳。普通的拳一般每套只有一百多点 ，但内外八封拳却共用一千零八十点，所谓龙、蛇、虎、豹、鹤、狮、象、马、猴、彪十形齐，分为包、抄、偷、 绕、截、升、沉、潜、伏、进、退十一种手法。据说，这是为了锻炼力长气长，利于两军对敌时的冲锋陷阵。陈盛 为了便于教学，将内外八卦拳分为三套，简化为长拳360多点，平拳280多点，扣打180多点 。这一改革， 对蔡李佛拳的普及起到了重要的作用。

　　在鸿胜馆学武的人很多，但一般徒弟只学到外家拳，升堂入室的徒弟才能学到内家拳。当师傅认为这个徒弟武 艺已有一定造诣，确实可以造就，而且为人正派才秘密教给内家拳。外家拳是一种长径绕，内家拳却是小径绕，内 家拳有各种手法来破外家拳，足以制服叛徒。那些小易筋经、穿莲佩剑、中阴插手、颅胁锤、缠丝马 、险死还生马 等绝技，都要学内家拳时，才有机会学到。

　　鸿胜馆在1927年的4.12政变中被查封后，不少骨干流亡海外，开馆授徒，使蔡李佛拳成 为世界最为流 行的拳种之一。

　　而今，香港、澳门、新加坡、马来西亚等地尚设有鸿胜馆，在国际武术界中仍颇有影响。目前， 佛山仍有鸿胜 祖馆、太上庙等鸿胜馆遗址，保存尚好，老一辈的鸿胜馆成员约有20余人。
如果您认为本词条还有待完善，需要补充新内容或修改错误内容，请 编辑词条

[hskwarrior]

鸿胜馆在各个革命历史时期：：：
来源：佛山历史　　日期：2007-9-17
　在近代中国历史上出现过的大大小小武馆中，其成员在各个革命历史时期都投身革命事业，并作出 重要贡献的， 只有佛山鸿胜馆一家。

　　早在辛亥革命前夕，鸿胜馆教头李苏、钱维方等就经同盟会员王寒烬介绍，加入同盟会。他们带领一批鸿胜馆 的骨干，发动佛山、顺德乐从的一批手工业工人和店员参加了孙中山领导的资产阶级民主革命运动。黄兴等在广州 举行黄花岗起义，李苏等即起兵接应。1911年11月10日，李苏等率民军与驻佛山的清兵激战 ，一举光复佛 山。

　　1922年1月，中共佛山组成立，当时有4名党员，即王寒烬、梁复燃、钱维方、梁桂华，其中钱维方、梁 桂华是鸿胜馆成员。其后，鸿胜馆的骨干陈雄志、吴勤等也加入了共产党。在共产党的领导下，佛山工人运动蓬勃 兴起，1922年秋，佛山成立由共产党领导的佛山工会联合会，钱维方出任工联会（1925年改称工代会，钱 维方任主席）主任。在工联会领导下，工人开展了一系列有组织的罢工，资本家则勾结黄色工会和反动武馆（即忠 义、兴义等义字系统武馆）破坏工人运动，双方展开激烈的斗争。在这场斗争中，鸿胜馆的绝大部分成员都加入工 联会和后来的工代会，钱维方兼任纠察队总队长，陈雄志任宣传部长，汤锡任竹器工会纠察队长，陈艺林任车衣工 会纠察队长。由于工代会与反动黄色工会的斗争都关系到相关的武馆，被称为“社字派”的鸿胜系统 与被称为“义 字派” 的义字系统的斗争，实际上就是共产党领导下的工代会与反动黄色工会的斗争。1924年，吴勤组建南浦农团军 ，名称由廖仲恺亲自定，是中国最早的人民自卫武装队伍之一。1925年吴勤又在鸿胜馆分馆之一的太上庙成立 南海县第四区农民协会并出任会长，农协会成立当日，廖仲恺等亲临指导。农协会积极组织农村革命 运动，与工人 运动相呼应，产生了很大影响。

　　1925年12月，国民党第二次全国代表大会在广州召开前夕，鉴于廖仲恺刚被暗杀，国民党右派扬言暗杀 出席大会的共产党代表和国民党左派人士，中共广东区委派杨殷到佛山组建特别护卫大队，钱维方、 梁桂华率40 名鸿胜馆高手前往广州集训，于翌年1月上岗巡逻，使国民党“二大”顺利召开。

　　1927年，蒋介石发动“4.12”政变，4月14日,反动当局与反动黄色工会联合起来对工代会实行镇 压，一批共产党员和工代会骨干遭搜捕并被杀害。革命转入低潮，鸿胜馆也被禁止活动。12月12日，吴勤组织 队伍配合广州起义，攻下普君圩。广州起义失败，钱维方、吴勤等逃亡到香港及南洋等地。
　　1937年，钱维方、吴勤从香港回到佛山，主持鸿胜体育会会务，领导会员投入抗战的洪流。他们首先在鸿 胜馆内开设杀敌大刀教练班，并派人到一些学校教授武艺。其次，举办防护团，由鸿胜馆内的一批名医教授紧急治 伤法。其间钱维方还举办了一个技击深造班，组织一批鸿胜馆成员成立山紫村民众自卫队，又遭到国民党当局查禁 ，钱维方被迫逃去香港。虽然钱维方离开了，但鸿胜馆在吴勤领导下，继续加紧组建抗日武装。1938年10月 ，佛山沦陷前夕，吴勤通知结束鸿胜体育会馆务，并通知鸿胜馆的成员200多人到石啃乡集中，组成抗日游击队 。这支队伍取得广州市区游击第二支队番号，吴勤任司令。后来，广二游击队发展至数千人，成为中国共产党直接 领导下的人民抗日武装，在南番顺一带多次重创日伪军。1942年5月,吴勤被国民军别动军林小 亚勾结汉奸设 伏杀害。

　　抗日战争期间鸿胜馆理事李广海常免费收治广二游击队指战员使他们能重返战场。

[hskwarrior]

蔡 李 佛 拳 名 师 录

张炎别名张鸿胜，生于1824年，广东新会湘水镇东凌村人，曾师从李友山、陈享及青草和尚，是 蔡李佛拳的创 始人之一。1851年在佛山张炎创鸿胜馆， “鸿”与“洪”同音，以纪念朱洪武，寓意反清复明必定取得胜利。创馆不久，张炎投身太平天国革命，在军中传 授武艺。革命失败后，张炎逃亡香港，至1867年，张炎重返佛山，此后，所传主要拳术名为平拳 、长拳，意为 “太平天国、长安万年”。
张炎门下弟子有陈盛、雷灿、李思、黄宽、张三炳、黄四、陈棉、阮懈 (阮系)、李苏等，均为蔡李佛拳的大师。1893年，张炎因感染风寒，由陈盛护送回乡，在家病逝 。
陈盛，又名陈国材、陈继盛，俗称牛盛，祖籍三水，1864年出生于佛山衙旁街大巷贫户内。陈盛少年时曾拜名 师周金彪习技，后张炎来佛山设馆传艺，屡败踢盘比武拳师而声名大振，陈盛不服，自传力大如牛，遂前去与他比 武，结果被张打倒三次而拜张炎为师。由于日夕苦练不辍，且—为人忠厚侠义，为张炎赏识，尽将己能传授与他， 继承衣钵。陈盛为人疾恶如仇，佛山鹰沙一个手下有百多个徒弟的恶霸，平时恃武艺高强欺压群众，成为地方一害 。陈盛年少气盛，与之交战并一举击毙。祖庙万福台是佛山有名的戏台，但一向以来，万福台演戏，前三排都只许 圣堂乡人坐，不知内情者到前排看戏，必被圣堂乡人痛汀。陈盛见此，单人赤手空拳将40余名手持长凳的圣堂乡 大汉打败，并当场宣布取消陋规，观众谁先到谁在戏台前看戏。
光绪年间，陈盛继任鸿胜馆掌门，将武馆迁到衙旁街15号，称鸿胜祖馆。后仇家密告鸿胜馆是反清秘密机构，佛 山分府派官兵前往围捕：陈盛只好疏散门徒走避香港。在香港，陈盛又因打伤一名时常欺侮百姓的英 国警察被当局 递解出境。清末，陈盛重返佛山在衙旁街恢复鸿胜馆，继续传艺授徒，并担任佛山螺涌社(鸿胜系统狮会)社长， 亲自传技。陈盛掌教30余年，门徒达3000余人，且设有太上庙、黄巷、莺岗、山紫、莲华、大桥头等分馆约 20家，连同螺涌社、协联社、远联社等外围狮会，整个鸿胜系统成员超过万人。他的高足弟子有钱维方、李旺( 肥仔旺)、陈艺林(扫把林)、汤锡(咸虾锡)、李昌、黄昌、黄乐、陈维志、张活等人。在省港佛一带，陈盛威 名远播，到佛山设武馆者，不论何派别，都必先到鸿胜馆拜访陈盛，以示尊重。陈盛除对拳术进行了重要的改革， 成为蔡李佛拳的重要继承发展者外，还据弃封建时代武馆的旧习，面向劳苦大众，在推广拳术的同时，培养造就了 一批革命志士。他的门徒中有不少人加入了共产党，绝大部分人加入了共产党领导下的工会和农会等组织。陈盛的 许多弟子因多次受到反动当局迫害，远走海外以设馆援徒为生，为蔡李佛拳在世界范围内的广泛传播 起到重要的 作用。
民国十五年(1926年)十月十三日，陈盛在贫病中去世。
佛山现时传授蔡李佛拳主要集中在佛山鸿胜馆内。

[hskwarrior]

蔡李佛拳的形成

清代,洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳,相传源自南少林。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李 家拳的代表人 物。
广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李 友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村(今东凌村)人张炎 (1824～1893),自幼喜武,曾拜李友山为师,后随陈享习武,17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和 尚 ,得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。
张炎随青草和尚学艺8年,尽得真传。青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜”二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。张 炎学成归来后 ,拜见陈享,将所学到的青草和尚的拳法转授给陈享,二人将蔡、李家拳和佛门拳法进行整理,创出 “蔡李佛”拳,取明晰来源之意。由于陈、张二人各有侧重,故二人所传的拳法又有所不同。
咸丰元年(1851年),张炎在佛山开设鸿胜馆。鸿胜蔡李佛派的礼桩诗曰:“大鹏展翼反天手, 魁星踢斗清名 留,拱拜五湖复四海,日月拱照万世流”。内含“反清复明”四宇。可见鸿胜馆从创办时起,就把推 翻清朝统治作 为宗旨。
张炎在佛山开馆后,即响应太平天国革命,投身军中教授武技,陈享亦在石达开处当幕僚。鸿胜馆的 平拳、长拳, 含有“太平天国,长安万年”之意,由此可见蔡李佛拳与太平天国革命的关系。可以说,蔡李佛拳在太平天国革命 中得到了发展和完善。现在,鸿胜馆还保留了很多两军对阵时的器械和技击术。

鸿胜馆的繁荣和发展

佛山的工商业极为发达,其繁荣程度一度可与京师、汉口、苏州媲美,人民生活在全国当时来说是较为富庶的。到 了清末,佛山手工业受洋货的冲击,以及民初军阀混战等原因而逐渐衰落,工人大量失业,社会动荡不安,人口从 道光十年(1830年)约60万,到民国10年(1921年)减至30万。当时,佛山是由盛至衰的转折时期 。资本家为了获取更高额的利润,与黑社会组织一起控制了相当一部分武馆,使之成为欺压工人的工具。普通工人 为了不受欺压,就要组织起来,学武防身。而当时的鸿胜馆,从最初的以反清复明为办馆宗旨,逐步转为支持孙中 山的同盟会,加入反清革命行列。中国共产党刚成立,鸿胜馆的部分骨干又加入共产党,领导佛山的工人运动和农 民运动。这样一个进步武术组织,自然成了工人投靠的对象。鸿胜馆定下“官吏不教、土豪恶霸不教、流氓地痞不 教”的“三不教”戒条,明确提出只收工人、小商贩和劳苦大众为门徒,可看到该馆领导层一方面要保持武馆成员 的纯洁性,另一方面又把工人看成是革命的主力军。得到大量的工人拥护,是鸿胜馆繁荣的主要原因 。
鸿胜馆能够得到繁荣又与馆主陈盛从严治馆,在武术界有较高的地位有密切关系。
陈盛(1864～1926)年轻时曾与张炎比武,为张炎所败并收为人室弟子。陈盛在张炎的弟子 中很快脱颖而 出,自此,张炎将衣钵传给陈盛,由陈盛继任馆主。陈盛不仅继承了张炎的武艺和医术,而且在管理 内务和拳术的 改革方面也颇有建树。
陈盛为发展鸿胜馆,制订了严格的馆规,徒弟入门前,要有馆内人介绍,经过调查有正当职业,品行 端正,没有触 犯“三不教”的戒条才能拜师。平时,陈盛强调“强不犯弱、众不暴寡”,如有徒弟无端闹事、与人 争斗,必叫回 馆中告诫、惩处。
鸿胜馆传授的拳术以青草和尚所传的内外八卦拳为主,共有1080点。这种拳术主要是为了锻炼体力,利于两军 对敌时冲锋陷阵。为使拳术易教易学,后来进行了简化、改革,变成长拳360多点,平拳280多 点,扣打18 0多点。另外,鸿胜馆还有内家拳,相传有醉拳、烂拳、睡拳,学习内家拳者除了要求武艺有一定造诣外,还要为 人正派。徒弟有资格学习内家拳时,师傅方密告反清复明的宗旨。
1921年,鸿胜馆进入鼎盛时期,全佛山共设有鸿胜馆20多间,分别设在衙旁街、白金街、山紫村、万安街、 塔坡街、彩阳堂、南顺街、大桥头、上沙、纶祥巷、太上庙、莺岗、线香街,分布全镇各地。陈盛名 下的徒弟有3 000多人,而整个鸿胜系统(包括由陈盛任社长的鸿胜馆外围狮会螺涌社等)成员约万人左右。 1926年陈盛病故,出殡时前来执绋的鸿胜馆成员有5000人左右。
早在20世纪50年代,省的一些专家已通过考证撰文称鸿胜馆是当时中国最大的武馆,而且是活动 时间最长(1 851～1949年共98年)的武术组织。
陈盛去世后,其首徒钱维方继任馆主。当时,钱维方是中共党员,佛山工人代表大会(简称工代会)主席。鸿胜馆 还有一批骨干担任了工代会特别是工会纠察队的领导,其成员也都加人工代会。1927年,蒋介石发动政变,工 代会受到反动当局的镇压,钱维方、吴勤等被迫逃亡外地,一大批成员被杀害。从此,鸿胜馆被迫停 止活动,至1 937年方以鸿胜体育会的名义恢复,但再也没有往日的声势。国共合作抗战,钱维方、吴勤从香港返回佛山,并 担任鸿胜体育会名誉董事长,并主持馆务,鸿胜馆的成员又投身抗战洪流。在抗战中,又有一批成员 为国捐躯,到 1947年鸿胜体育会仅有200多人。解放前夕,更减至70人左右。

鸿胜馆的拳术与影响

鸿胜馆强调学武要讲究武德,师傅既要教武又要育人。这—点,可以从该馆的馆规反映出来。鸿胜馆 有馆规10条 ,即:1.得师;2.苦练;3.当头手不善(不可随便与人动手);4.节色;5.补食;6.要雄 捱标打力( 要学好扎马和跳跃本领);7.气长;8.发响;9.敌棋逢来不让;10日久多磨推不动。馆规包 括了为人要求 和学艺要诀。
为严防门徒恃强生事,陈盛除了严格执法外,还注意以身作则。陈盛看到舞狮易生事,就规定鸿胜馆不许设狮。陈 盛晚年时有一次被某武馆的拳师开枪打伤了腿部, 陈盛的一班徒弟闻风而至,要捉拿惩办,陈盛指着那拳师逃跑的相反方向,只说声没什么事就算了, 不愿因自己的 受伤而引起争斗。
尽管鸿胜馆向来强调不与人争斗,但路见不平,往往会挺身而出,特别是对那些穷凶极恶的恶霸和耀 武扬威的外国 拳师,却毫不客气,许多事迹曾在佛山广泛流传。
鸦片战争后,中国成为列强瓜分、蚕食的目标,国人受尽洋人的欺凌。一些外国拳师更是四处横行, 往往设下擂台 ,耀武扬威。鸿胜馆的拳师奋起抗争,一次又一次扬威擂台,令西洋拳师胆丧,民众振奋,传媒争相报 道。
1900年左右,鸿胜馆被清政府查封,陈盛到香港以卖菜为生,遇到一个常常恃势欺压百姓的英国警察,陈 盛便 将他痛打一番,被香港当局递解出境。
在鸿胜馆的近百年历史中,武林名人辈出,张炎的弟子有陈盛、雷灿、李恩、黄宽、黄四、张三炳、阮系、陈棉、 李苏等;第二代弟子中,陈盛门下的有钱维方、李旺、汤锡、陈雄志、黄乐、余告、黄昌、崔章、李昌、许钊、张 活、肖二、肖礼、陈艺林等;雷灿门下有谭三等;李恩门下有刘忠、方玉书、孔德光、夏碧慈、蔡一桥、蔡二桥、 陈细如;黄四门下有何仪;张三炳门下有莫光、阮福;阮系门下有刘彬等。第三代弟子中,较著名的有钱维方的弟 子吴勤;谭三的弟子有谭飞鹏、伦枝、陈年柏、江安、朱德才、马恩;孔德光的弟子孔繁济、孔鎏、孔顺;方玉书 的弟子陈汉雄、林少立;蔡一桥的弟子关文经等。
现在,香港、澳门、马来西亚、新加坡、菲律宾、台湾、澳大利亚、加拿大、美国、英国、苏格兰、 德国、意大利 、西班牙、爱尔兰、委内瑞拉、巴西、哥伦比亚、阿根廷等数十个国家和地区都有鸿胜蔡李佛传人。
1998年3月,佛山蔡李佛鸿胜馆成立,由黄镇江、梁伟永等众多佛山传人主持,并在挖掘和整理传统武术、狮 艺等方面取得可喜成绩,在佛山市近几年武术节和醒狮大赛中,获得多个奖项。曾经派出代表参加了首都庆祝中华 人民共和国成立50周年庆典醒狮表演和喜迎2000年佛山秋色大巡游暨秋色欢乐节开幕式,均备 受好评。现在 ,不少世界各地的蔡李佛拳弟子每年都回来佛山蔡李佛鸿胜馆寻根问祖,佛山蔡李佛鸿胜馆成为展示佛山传统武术 、将中国传统武术文化向世界传输的又一重要窗口。
__________________

[extrajoseph]

<广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李 友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村(今东凌村)人张炎 (1824～1893),自幼喜武,曾拜李友山为师,后随陈享习武,17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和 尚 ,得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。
张炎随青草和尚学艺8年,尽得真传。青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜” 二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。张 炎学成归来后 ,拜见陈享,将所学到的青草和尚的拳法转授给陈享,二人将蔡、李家拳和佛门拳法进行整理,创出 “蔡李佛”拳,取明晰来源之意。由于陈、张二人各有侧重,故二人所传的拳法又有所不同。>

<佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年），原称佛山蔡李佛武馆。光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主，改称鸿胜馆。鸿胜馆从 成立到1949年闭馆的98年来，培育了陈盛、雷灿、黄宽、李恩、陈 棉、李苏、谭立、张三炳、阮系, 钱维方、吴勤等武林英才，是中国成立时间最长、人数最多的武馆之一。>

Frank,

I don't know where you got your source from but the two contradic each other. The first one above said Jeong Yim came back after learning from Ching Cho and then taught Chan Heung to make up CLF, the second one said Jeong Yim was a favorite disciple of Chan Heung.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

And Both Are True.

Jeong Yim Was Indeed One Of The Most Special Disciple Of Chan Heung Since Jeung Yim Was Able To Pick Up His Most Earliest Stages Relatively Early.

What It "doesn't" Do Is Lie Like You Joseph. As You See, The Dates 1851 Are All Over The Place.........and We Never Said Jeung Yim Wasn't A Student Of Chan Heung........just A Very Short Time One.

[hskwarrior]

joseph the liar,

do you remember this?

"Hi Frank,

Here is more research for you. As far as my record shows, Yuen Hai was not a disciple of Jeong Yim. He studied with Loong Gee-Choi instead. Loong was one of the oldest and best student of Chan Heung and he was a lot more senion and learned a lot more than Jeong. He and Koon Pak and Jeong headed the 3 main lines of CLF - Great Sage, Heroic Victory and Great Victory Hung Sing. My record shows Yuen Hai has a disciple (maybe his son) called Yuen Kam.

If your lineage has connection to Yuen Hai, then that would make your school a Heroic Victory Hung Sing Branch school instead of a Great Victory Hung Sing Branch school. If that is the case, you have little connection to Jeong Yim. Care to check it out and prove me wrong? I hate to see you barking up the wrong tree.

You maybe a lot more closer to King Mui than Futshan. Does that make you feel uncomfortable? You may have to make further changes to the final version of the American Hung Sing Gwoon! Maybe you don't need the Green Grass Monk any more!

Whatever you write, Frank, please do it in a scholarly way, people are not as stupid as you think and there are clear records if you know where to look.

BTW, Cho, Choi and Chui is the same surname, you know Chinese, it is not an easy language.

Joseph"


it seems to me joseph, that you have been trying to mislead everyone from th jeung yim lineage for a long long time now. the above is very very typical of you.

and yes, you yourself have even said that Jeung Yim was in fact the favorite of Chan Heung, that he was one of the brightest and most promising......

and, we have always said that Jeung Yim came back to share what he learned from the green grass monk with chan heung........so where have we waivered in our history so far?

[hskwarrior]

<广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李 友山

whats wrong joseph? you aren't going to dispute the fact that chan heung was born in 1815?

[hskwarrior]

"I have one more little thing for you to think about. If Futshan Hung Sing can't even verify Tong Shek's death, how reliable do you think their verification of your family lineage would be?

An interesting question, woludn't you say?

Joseph"


the above shows perfectly to a T that you have been bumping your gums, acting like you know what you are talking about.

look at this (http://hungsing.com/tongsek.htm)

you don't even have a clue. i would really stop trying to tell us about our history when you are promoting nothing but lies.

[hskwarrior]

Loong was one of the oldest and best student of Chan Heung and he was a lot more senion and learned a lot more than Jeong"


you have always said this about jeung hung sing joseph.

the more i dig the more i am beginning to truly believe that Loong Gee Choy is a cover up name for jeung hung sing. you claim they were there at different times, but records show they were there at the SAME time......now in our history jeung yim wasn't going to be let in because he was an outsider.

In all of CLF's history, there is NO mention of TWO outsiders there at the same time. and as i said, jeung hung sing was with chan heung in 1836. supposedly so was Loong Gee Choy, but there is No mention of Loong Gee Choy in our history.

i wonder why.

[extrajoseph]

[B]

look at this (http://hungsing.com/tongsek.htm)

you don't even have a clue. i would really stop trying to tell us about our history when you are promoting nothing but lies.

There are two Tong Sek with the same name, one was Chan Sheng's student from Pun-Yu and the other was Chan Yiu Chi's student from Guangzhou, they both ended up in Hong Kong but quarter of a century apart. The son of the second Tong Shek (Tony) still lives in Sydney. I am not telling lies, it is only your limited knowledge of CLF that makes you think so.

[hskwarrior]

then how do you explain the Tong Sek From fut san where you can see his picture?

you tried embarrassing when i said tong sek died in 1959.....just as the picture shows.

now, are you still going to act like i don't know about tong sek?

you are soo much on the same lines as kenny fist and terri gay...no matter if the truth hits you in the face, you won't acknowledge it.

shame.

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

I have just expalined, there are TWO Tong Sek of the same name! I knew about both and you only knew one. That is the difference.

The same goes with Loong Chee-Choi, I've got his written history and you are only guessing.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

joseph, if you knew about both, then why did you react the way you did when i said Tong Sek passed away in 1959. He did. now what?

you claim NOW, that there were two tong seks, but back then you tried to embarrass me. still, the proof is in the pudding, and you haven't found YOUR proof.

[hskwarrior]

please, if you dare, share with us the loong gee choy information you have.

however i doubt you'd do that.

[extrajoseph]

please, if you dare, share with us the loong gee choy information you have.

however i doubt you'd do that.

You are right Frank, I won't do that, not if you keep calling me a liar.

[hskwarrior]

joseph thats all you've been calling me. so whats the problem here?

just share what you know about loong gee choy. this is one person i'm very interested in.

[extrajoseph]

<广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李 友山

whats wrong joseph? you aren't going to dispute the fact that chan heung was born in 1815?

Chan Heung was born in 1806 and his grave is still at the back of King Mui village and his descendants are still thriving, but if Futsan insisted that he was born in 1815, then I suppose Futsan knows more about the Chan family than the Chan family themselves.

What can I say? If you believe in this kind of rubbish without thinking, then you would believe their story that Jeong Yim co-founded CLF just by them saying so.

[hskwarrior]

Well, i won't believe the rubbish that you put out. its all lies.

Now, you tell me why we should believe you when you can't explain why their is first a 31 gap, and a 16 gap in your account of Jeung Yim's history?

You can't even explain away why we don't contain forms from the chan family in our lineage?

joseph, you may have good history in regards to chan family stuff, but you don't really have a clue in regards to Jeung Hung Sing. you're at least 16/31 years in the loss on that one.

and there's many websites that say chan heung was born in 1815. don't aske me, ask the one's who say he was born then.

but what about loong gee choy joseph......how bout it?

[hskwarrior]

"then I suppose Futsan knows more about the Chan family than the Chan family themselves.
"

Haven't i been saying that all along about you guys joseph?

what a contradictory statement coming from the infamous extrajoseph. LOL

How come you can act like you are some authority about Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, but we can't be authorities on Chan Family joseph? why is that? do you think you are better? if so, please fill us in to your train of thought on that. enlighten us to why you are better.

isn't your history by chan yiu chi from "someone who said so?"

[extrajoseph]

If Jeong Yim co-founded CLF, how come his disciples and his descendant don't claim that? The claim was only made recently, by someone from the re-opened Futsan Gwoon, to drum up business, no doubt!

Use your brain Frank, Futsan made up Chan Heung's birthday to make Jeong Yim being a co-founder look credible age-wise and you fall for their lies.

The Chen Family history is supported by official county and village records and the Chinese bureaucrats, through history, were good at keeping records.

[CLFNole]

XJ:

I don't think you will ever get Frank to believe what you say. He stands by his beliefs which I respect, I don't necessarily agree but I respect his beliefs. I think you are wasting your time and nothing will come of this.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Loong was one of the oldest and best student of Chan Heung and he was a lot more senion and learned a lot more than Jeong"


you have always said this about jeung hung sing joseph.

the more i dig the more i am beginning to truly believe that Loong Gee Choy is a cover up name for jeung hung sing. you claim they were there at different times, but records show they were there at the SAME time......now in our history jeung yim wasn't going to be let in because he was an outsider.

In all of CLF's history, there is NO mention of TWO outsiders there at the same time. and as i said, jeung hung sing was with chan heung in 1836. supposedly so was Loong Gee Choy, but there is No mention of Loong Gee Choy in our history.

i wonder why.

You wonder why? That is because you can't read Chinese! This is what you have posted up elsewhere yourself and it tells us who was Loong Gee-Choi, he certainly was not Jeong Yim!

在太平天国革命中，蔡李佛门人是重要的组织者和参考者。太平天国创始人之一，南王冯云山，是陈 享门徒龙 子才的弟子。

[hskwarrior]

joseph, you should really use your brain, or are you going looney in your old age?

I said that Jeung Yim was a co-founder to Choy Lee Fut when i first got on this forum long ago. we didn't go to fut san then. i researched the information joseph. so again, they weren't the ones who only felt this way.

if you were so good at keeping records....then why do you promote jeung yim as being one of the later generation of students?

but never mind joseph, you have this wonderful way of not anwering questions you don't have an answer for.

what else do you have joseph? i can squash that too.

[hskwarrior]

to tell you the truth, it doesn't matter if jeung yim was a co-founder or not.

the truth of the matter is that the chan family has extremely faulty records in regards to jeung hung sing.

explain the big gaps i've been asking you joseph for the 100'th time now.

[hskwarrior]

the truth of the matter is still your chan family branch is telling lies about jeung hung sing. plain and simple.

you truly hate the idea that jeung yim could have co-founded CLF, but what if you were wrong all along? how would you feel then?

in the end, your chan family clf is not the same as Jeung Hung Sing's Clf. plain and simple.

[CLFNole]

Is there any real proof that the gaps in time don't exist. I mean is their some enrollment sheet at the Fut San school that dates when Jeong Yim went to King Mui or is this just a "he said she said" situtation?

[hskwarrior]

joseph, Are You Going To Explain The Huge Gaps You Have In Your Records On Jeung Yim? Or Are You Going To Continue To Skirt The Issue?

I Had To Enlarge It To Help Old Man Joseph Read In Case He Doesn't Have His Spectacles.

[hskwarrior]

Clfnole, Fut San Gov't Has Records Of Jeung Yim In His School In 1851.

Chan Family Claim 1867.

From 1851 To 1867 Is A 16 Year Gap.

From 1836 To 1867 Is A 31 Year Gap.

So, Yes, There Is A Huge Gap In Chan Family History In Regards To Jeung Yim.

Jeung Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon Was Launched At The Exact Same Time As The Tai Ping Rebellion.

Now Clfnole, With As Many Times At The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon Has Been Closed Down, Do You Really Think There Wasn't Any Records?

AND THERE IS A FEW PEOPLE IN FUT SAN THAT HAS GOV'T ACCESS TO RECORDS.

[CLFNole]

Personally I don't trust the chinese government and a lot of what they do is for other reasons, see: Shaoling Temple, Wu Dang Temple, Chen Village, etc...

If there was actually documented data from within the Jeong Yim family line itself or the village where he was from, taught, etc... I would believe more.

I just have my doubts about the "guy behind the curtain" pulling all the strings in Futsan.

Dates can always be wrong when going back to times when records were sketchy plus what reason would King Mui have fore moving dates around regarding Jeong Yim? What real threat is he to them? I just don't get it.

[hskwarrior]

PERSONALLY, I DON'T TRUST THE CHAN FAMILY WHEN IT COMES TO OUR HISTORY.

HOW ABOUT THE FUT SAN MUSEUM? YOU WOULDN'T TRUST THEM?

"Dates can always be wrong when going back to times when records were sketchy plus what reason would King Mui have fore moving dates around regarding Jeong Yim? What real threat is he to them? I just don't get it."


NOW YOU TELL ME CLFNOLE?

ALL RECORDS SHOW 1851. CHAN FAMILY BRANCH CLAIMS 1867. NOW YOU TELL ME?

ALL RECORDS SHOW THAT JEUNG YIM WASN'T SOME PART OF A LAST BATCH OF STUDENTS.

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE IN.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE........


Dates can always be wrong when going back to times when records were sketchy

WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT THE FUT SAN HSK WOULD DO THIS AND NOT THE CHAN FAMILY? IS THE CHAN FAMILY GODS? ARE THEY ROYALTY? I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT FUT SAN PULLING THE STRINGS BEHIND THE SCENES, WHY IS IT JUST THEM? WHY COULDN'T THE CHAN FAMILY BE UP TO PULLING STRINGS?

DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING PERSONAL AGAINST THE JEUNG YIM LINEAGE CLFNOLE?

I MEAN YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN USING OUR NAME FOR THE LONGEST TIME, BUT YOU SEEM TO RESIST ANYTHING COMING FROM FUT SAN. AND YOU ARE WAY TOO QUICK TO BELIEVE CHAN FAMILY OVER US.

OUR STORY HAS NEVER CHANGED. BUT YOUR CHAN FAMILY STORIES CHANGE ALOT THRU TIME.

DO YO REALLY THINK THE GREEN GRASS MONK IS CHOY FOOK AFTER ALL THIS TIME THE CHAN FAMILY CLAIMS HE DIDN'T EXIST?

[CLFNole]

When you say all records say 1851, have you seen them or is that what you are told? I don't know who is right (nor do I really care for that matter) but at least the Chan Family has some form of internal documentation, whereas hung sing doesn't seem to. I am not saying the Chan Family is right nor should they tell you about your lineage but I don't think they really are, they are just giving the dates that they have regarding Jeong Yim and really not much else. I don't think anyone questions the accomplishments or status of Jeong Yim.

[hskwarrior]

If You Want To See Records Go To Fut San. Simple As That. I Did.

[extrajoseph]

XJ:

I don't think you will ever get Frank to believe what you say. He stands by his beliefs which I respect, I don't necessarily agree but I respect his beliefs. I think you are wasting your time and nothing will come of this.

Peace.

Dear CLF Noble,

You are right again, I have to keep remaining myself that some americans are still teaching creationist history in the schools purely out of their beliefs, no matter what the scientists come up with.

I don't think I am wasting my time though, at least the others can see an alternative point of view and make up their own mind, otherwise, they will think Frank is telling the truth instead of his belief.

Should we respect blind faith? That is an interesting question.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

but at least the Chan Family has some form of internal documentation,

WHICH IS COMPLETELY INCORRECT IN REGARDS TO JEUNG YIM.

[hskwarrior]

You are right again, I have to keep remaining myself that some americans are still teaching creationist history in the schools purely out of their beliefs, no matter what the scientists come up with.

I don't think I am wasting my time though, at least the others can see an alternative point of view and make up their own mind, otherwise, they will think Frank is telling the truth instead of his belief.

Should we respect blind faith? That is an interesting question


WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS MY QUESTIONS JOSEPH?

[CLFNole]

I have nothing against the Jeong Yim lineage and never have nor have I every implied anything like that so don't put words in my mouth. There are some things about the Futsan school I don't like but that is my business and has nothing to do with how I feel about Jeong Yim.

I also never said anything about believing everything that comes out of King Mui either.

This whole thing is just we say one thing you say another and nobody can really prove the other wrong since no one was there and there isn't 100% evidence.

Either way it all has no bearing on my own kung fu, how I feel about CLF, the Chan Family or Jeong Yim.

[hskwarrior]

Clfnole,

Are You Saying That Chan Family Is Any Better Than Fut San Because They Have Faulty Internal Documents? OR YOU ARE PRONE TO BELIEVE THEM MORE BECAUSE THE HAVE THEIR OWN RECORDS?

HAVE YOU SEEN THEM? HAVE YOU READ THEM? IF NOT, WHY DO YOU SUPPORT THEM IF YOU NEVER READ THEM?

[hskwarrior]

I Won't Play Mr. Nice Guy Right Now Clfnole,

From Day One You Have Been On The Chan Side Of The Boat And Constantly Questioned The Fut San Stuff Instead Of Questioning The Chan Family Stuff.

Why Is That?

[CLFNole]

Where did I say that Frank? Read what I said. I don't think every piece of info they have is 100% accurate as history has proven over time that things can be wrong but at least they have some kind of written history within the lineage albeit from a somewhat biased point of view.

[extrajoseph]

If You Want To See Records Go To Fut San. Simple As That. I Did.

What records did you see? I was there too, I only saw claims without any evidence to back them up.

I have also been to a conference hosted by the Chinese government and attended by sports administrations officials, where the Futsan guys were proved to be wrong by a couple of trained historians, but they still peddle thier theory of a co-founder in their website. China is relatively free now so, they can say what they want, as long as it is not politically threatening.

[hskwarrior]

joseph, You Are Still Not Answering My Question

[CLFNole]

I didn't question the Chan Family but correct me if I am wrong but when the Chan Family actually had a forum I stated I didn't think Chan Heung created all the forms and got attacked. I also said it was awfully convenient that they all of a sudden found information that GGM was actually Choy Fook.

Look if Futsan wasn't really be controlled by one person and was from a number of different sifus I might have a different opinion.

[hskwarrior]

Where did I say that Frank? Read what I said. I don't think every piece of info they have is 100% accurate as history has proven over time that things can be wrong but at least they have some kind of written history within the lineage albeit from a somewhat biased point of view.

THEN WHY ACT LIKE YOU WOULD BELIEVE THEM OVER US? WHEN YOUR LINEAGE ACTUALLY BEARS OUR NAME, NOT THEIRS!

YOU KNOW WHAT LANCE, FUT SAN ONLY RECENTLY RE-OPENED, MY LINEAGE IS OVER 80 YEARS OLD JUST HERE IN THE UNITED STATES BUT OLDER BY GOING BACK TO YUEN HAI SINCE WE INHERITED HIS SCHOOL.

MY LINEAGE IS OLDER THAN JOSEPH HIMSELF. SO I AM MORE LIKELY TO BELIEVE MY OWN FAMILY THAN SOMEONE ELSES.

[hskwarrior]

Look if Futsan wasn't really be controlled by one person and was from a number of different sifus I might have a different opinion.
Reply With Quote

IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO SIFU CKY.......I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. MY LINEAGE IS OLDER THAN HIS TOO. HOWEVER, HE DOES HOLD THE KEY TO ALOT OF OLD ORIGINAL HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT TOO.

LOOK YOU CARRY OUR NAME, WE WOULD EXPECT YOU TO STAND UP FOR YOUR NAME SAKE A LITTLE MORE AND NOT DOUBT US ALL THE TIME.

BEGIN QUESTIONING MORE ABOUT THE CHAN FAMILY STUFF.........LEARN ABOUT YOUR HUNG SING HISTORY THEN COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS.

[CLFNole]

Just curious if Yuen Hai or Lau Bun provided any historical documenation regarding Jeong Yim?

The fact that Lau Bun's school is 80 years old in the US is really off point in the discussion. What my school is about also has nothing to do with the conversation.

[hskwarrior]

If Yuen Hai Was One Of Jeung Yim's Original Students What Documentation Would He Have?

DO YOU EVEN KNOW IF THERE WAS ANY HISTORICAL RECORDS OF WHAT WENT ON IN THOSE DAYS?

[hskwarrior]

Do You Think Chan Koon Pak Carried Information About His Daddy With Him?


LANCE, IF YOU DID SOME RESEARCH OF WHAT THE TIMES WERE LIKE BACK THEN, YOU'D COME TO KNOW THAT IN THOSE DAYS HAVING ANY TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT MAY LEAD YOU BACK TO THE HUNG MUN, OR ANY ORGANIZATION UNDER SUSPICION BY THE GOVERNMENT THAT COULD GET YOU HEAD TAKEN OFF.

WHY W0ULD YOU POSSESS DOCUMENTS THAT COULD GET YOU KILLED RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT?

[hskwarrior]

And Check This Out......

The Li Iu Ling Lineage Of Chan Family Clf, Boy Do They Have Mixed Up Information.

They Too, Along With Chan Koon Paks' Lineage Also Say Chan Heung Died In 1888.

I Thought Chan Heung Died In 1875? But This Is Chan Family History For You.

[CLFNole]

Who says I don't stand up for Jeong Yim? I can't do that I still not buy what Futsan is selling? Look I am a republican and I really don't like the way the president is running the country, it doesn't make me become a democrat.

I look at things a bit differently I have my own beliefs. I don't have to agree with the Chan Family because we share most of our sets with them in the same way I don't have to agree with Futsan just becuase my lineage has a Jeong Yim connection.

I am not a sheep that simply follows the flock I think on my own and make my own conclusions. History and what we believe or don't believe never comes up in our school. CLF is what is important to us.

[hskwarrior]

Actually, My School Being In The United States For Over 8o Has Alot To Do With It. The Hung Sing Kwoon In Fut San In 2001 Celebrated Their 150th Anniversary...........our Yuen Hai Lineage Is Over Half The Age Of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

We Came To Usa In Early 1920's And Brought All That Yuen Hai Had To Teach From Jeung Yim. Our Material Has Been Preserved For That Long Too.

So Yes, Our Time In Usa Has A Big Part To Play In Things.

[hskwarrior]

Who says I don't stand up for Jeong Yim? I can't do that I still not buy what Futsan is selling?

ISN'T THAT A CONTRADICTION?

AND WHEN HAVE YOU EVER STOOD UP FOR THE JEUNG YIM LINEAGE IN THE WHOLE TIME I'VE KNOWN YOU LANCE?

[CLFNole]

So now your are saying that no one would have records back then becuase they would be afraid to get their heads cut off. So how can anyone be sure if either sides dates are correct? You dismiss their stuff but you can't have it both ways.

Bottom line is no one has any real proof and this is all alot of chest pumping and jockeying for position. All political BS. If we all stuck to practising and promoting CLF the world would be a better place.

Weren't you for the "Sam Sing Yut Gar" or was that just for show?

[hskwarrior]

I am not a sheep that simply follows the flock I think on my own and make my own conclusions. History and what we believe or don't believe never comes up in our school. CLF is what is important to us.

NEITHER AM I. I DIDN'T JUST HEAR THE HISTORY AND CHOSE TO BELIEVE IT. I DID MY RESEARCH. AND IF MY RESEARCH WOULD HAVE SHOWN THAT THE FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON WAS MISTAKEN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO SPEAK UP. IF IT PROVED WE OWED EVERYTHING TO CHAN HEUNG, THEN CHAN HEUNG WOULD HAVE MY LOYALTIES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE SINGAPORE HUNG SING KWOON PROMOTED THAT JEUNG YIM WAS KILLED AT AN EARLY AGE AFTER BEING AMBUSHED. WELL, AFTER BACK TRACKING FROM CHAN NGAU SING'S BIRTHDATE, WE CAME TO DISCOVER THAT SINGAPORE WAS MISTAKEN IN THEIR HISTORY.

I HAVE DONE WHAT IT TAKES, AND THROUGH OUT THE HUNG SING KWOONS GOTTEN MY RESPECT FOR MY QUEST ON OUR HISTORY.

AGAIN, IF I FOUND SOMETHING WRONG IN FUT SAN'S ACCOUNT, I'D BE THE FIRST TO SAY SOMETHING, BECAUSE I WANT MY LINEAGES HISTORY TRUE AND PURE.

[hskwarrior]

Just Because It Wasn't Written Down........why Should You Distrust The History Passed Down To You From Your Teacher Who Got It From His Teacher Who Got It From His Teacher Who Got It From His Teacher?

And I Am For Sam Sing Yat Ga...........but For A Unified One. Not One With People Like Joseph Who Is Always Trying To Take The Spot Light Away. He Likes To Argue The Hung Sing History......we Tell It And Joseph Loves To Cause Trouble.

Now, Are You Telling Me If You Asked Lee Koon Hung, Your Father In Law A Question About Hung Sing History, Are You Going To Call Him A Liar?

[hskwarrior]

Clfnole, Based On What Is Put Out By The Chan Family, I Did My Research.
Did It With An Open Mind. Just In Case We Could Be Wrong.

The More I Did My Research, The More I Began To Feel What I Feel About Jeung Yim. No One Got To Me. No One Planted This In My Head.

It Is My Own Deduction Based On The Information On Clf From Both Chan Family Sides And Fut San Hung Sing.

And I Still Feel Chan Family Got Our History Wrong.

[extrajoseph]

Clfnole, Fut San Gov't Has Records Of Jeung Yim In His School In 1851.

Chan Family Claim 1867.

From 1851 To 1867 Is A 16 Year Gap.

From 1836 To 1867 Is A 31 Year Gap.

So, Yes, There Is A Huge Gap In Chan Family History In Regards To Jeung Yim.

Jeung Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon Was Launched At The Exact Same Time As The Tai Ping Rebellion.

Now Clfnole, With As Many Times At The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon Has Been Closed Down, Do You Really Think There Wasn't Any Records?

AND THERE IS A FEW PEOPLE IN FUT SAN THAT HAS GOV'T ACCESS TO RECORDS.

Dear Frank,

The 16 years gap can be easily explained and that is because you can’t read Chinese. This came from your posting “The following are the chinese writings of the Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut school. This is for those who read chinese.”:

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年），原称佛山蔡李佛武馆。光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人 陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主，改称鸿胜馆。

“ Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon was established in 1851, originally it as called Futsan CLF Mo Gwoon (Futsan CLF MA School), in the beginning of the Gwong Shui Years (1875), Jeong Yim, a favourite disciple of Chan Heung, the founder of CLF, took over as the "Kwoon Chu" (the head of the school) and changed the name to Hung Sing Gwoon.

That is the same year (1875) as written down in the Commemorative Notes for the Return to the Origin Tour 2002, published by the King Mui Ancestral School (I got a copy in my hand). So both Futsan and King Mui agreed on the same year.

The government record is correct, but at that time (1851), the school was not run by Jeong Yim, he did not take over until 1875.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年），原称佛山蔡李佛武馆。光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人 陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主，改称鸿胜馆。

Foshan □won □□□to clear Xian feng first year (in 1851), original □Foshan Cai Li Fuwu □. The light □first year, the self-satisfied disciple □inflammation which the □beginning person □enjoys by Cai Li Fuch'uan takes over □the host, changes □□wins □.


WHERE DOES IT SAY 1875?

[hskwarrior]

“ Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon was established in 1851, originally it as called Futsan CLF Mo Gwoon (Futsan CLF MA School), in the beginning of the Gwong Shui Years (1875), Jeong Yim, a favourite disciple of Chan Heung, the founder of CLF, took over as the "Kwoon Chu" (the head of the school) and changed the name to Hung Sing Gwoon.


THAT IS SOMETHING WE NEVER HEARD BEFORE AND WOULD TAKE SOME RESEARCH ON.

CAN'T LIE ABOUT THAT ONE. COULD BE SOMEONE'S INTERPRETATION.

The government record is correct, but at that time (1851), the school was not run by Jeong Yim, he did not take over until 1875.

SO ARE YOU ADMITTING THAT JEUNG YIM TOOK OVER CHOY LEE FUT IN 1875 THEN, 18 YEARS BEFORE HE PASSED AWAY?

[hskwarrior]

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年）

Is Jeong Yim's School And Not Chan Heungs.

[extrajoseph]

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年），原称佛山蔡李佛武馆。光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人 陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主，改称鸿胜馆。

Foshan □won □□□to clear Xian feng first year (in 1851), original □Foshan Cai Li Fuwu □. The light □first year, the self-satisfied disciple □inflammation which the □beginning person □enjoys by Cai Li Fuch'uan takes over □the host, changes □□wins □.


WHERE DOES IT SAY 1875?

Get this translated and you've got the date: 光绪初年

[hskwarrior]

Light □first year

THAT DOESN'T TRANSLATE INTO A DATE OF 1875.

NOW.......WHAT THAT SAYS IS THAT JEUNG YIM TOOK OVER AS HOST OF CLF IN 1875 WHEN CHAN HEUNG DIED.

IT SAYS HIS SCHOOL WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1851.

[extrajoseph]

佛山鸿胜馆创办于清咸丰元年（1851年）

Is Jeong Yim's School And Not Chan Heungs.

Not if you read the follow up sentence: 光绪初年，由蔡李佛拳创始人 陈享的得意弟 子张炎接任馆主. The key word is "took over", meaning it was not his school when it was founded in 1851.

[extrajoseph]

Light □first year

THAT DOESN'T TRANSLATE INTO A DATE OF 1875.

NOW.......WHAT THAT SAYS IS THAT JEUNG YIM TOOK OVER AS HOST OF CLF IN 1875 WHEN CHAN HEUNG DIED.

IT SAYS HIS SCHOOL WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1851.

Yes, Chan Heung died in the same year, on the 20th day of the 8th moon.

[hskwarrior]

佛山鸿胜馆 Is Jeung Yim's School, And Not Chan Heungs.

[extrajoseph]

Light □first year

THAT DOESN'T TRANSLATE INTO A DATE OF 1875.

.

Try this to translate the imperial reigns into western dates:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%89%E7%B7%92

[extrajoseph]

佛山鸿胜馆 Is Jeung Yim's School, And Not Chan Heungs.

Yes, it was his school from 1875, not from 1851. Before that it was ran by a Chen family member who went blind.

[hskwarrior]

Great, You've Given Me Something To Look Into.

However, Doesn't Explain A Thing.

[hskwarrior]

Ok Cool, So The School That The Blind Guy Had Jeung Yim Took Over That Specific School In 1875. Thats Nice.

BUT JEUNG YIM LAUNCHED WHATEVER PHYSICAL SCHOOL HE HAD AT THE TIME IN 1851 WHEN HE RESPONDED TO THE TAI PING REBELLION.

WE ARE NOT SAYING THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN HIS SCHOOL. THE ONE BY THE BLIND GUY.

THAT WAS JUST ONE OF THE SCHOOLS JEUNG YIM HAD. HE ALSO TAUGHT AT WHAT IS NOW USED AT A POLICE STATION IN FUT SAN, AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER PLACES.

YOU KNOW WHAT, TONG SEK, QIAN WEI FANG, AND MANY OTHERS ALSO TAUGHT THERE. IT WAS USED AS A GATHERING PLACE BY MEMBERS OF THE HUNG MUN.

[hskwarrior]

However, That Makes Complete Sense Joseph.

In 1875, Jeung Yim Took Over The Blind Guys School. Thats Good Information Right There.

That Still Doesn't Dispute That Jeung Yim Had Opened His Own School In 1851. Maybe Not At The Place In Mention, But Other Schools Were Used And We Know This 100%.

[extrajoseph]

The postings you quoted from Futsan are full of contradictory statement, here is another one:


Clfnole, Fut San Gov't Has Records Of Jeung Yim In His School In 1851.
Chan Family Claim 1867.


The Chan Family did not claim 1867, your Futsan people said Jeong Yim returned to Futsan in 1867:

<1851年在佛山张炎创鸿胜馆， “鸿”与“洪”同音，以纪念朱洪武，寓意反清复明必定取得胜利。创馆不久，张炎投身太平天国革命 ，在军中传 授武艺。革命失败后，张炎逃亡香港，至1867年，张炎重返佛山，此后，所传主要拳术名为平拳 、长拳，意为 “太平天国、长安万年”。>

"Jeong Yim founded the Hung Sing Gwoon in 1851...not long after founding the school, Jeong Yim threw himself into the Tai Ping Heavenly Kingdom Revolution, he taught MA to the troops. After the revolution failed, he ran away to Hong Kong, until in 1867, Jeong Yim again return to Futsan..."

[hskwarrior]

The Chan Family did not claim 1867, your Futsan people said Jeong Yim returned to Futsan in 1867:

<1851年在佛山张炎创鸿胜馆， “鸿”与“洪”同音，以纪念朱洪武，寓意反清复明必定取得胜利。创馆不久，张炎投身太平天国革命 ，在军中传授武艺。革命失败后，张炎逃亡香港，至1867年，张炎重返佛山，此后，所传主要拳 术名为平拳 、长拳，意为 “太平天国、长安万年”。>

"Jeong Yim founded the Hung Sing Gwoon in 1851...not long after founding the school, Jeong Yim threw himself into the Tai Ping Heavenly Kingdom Revolution, he taught MA to the troops. After the revolution failed, he ran away to Hong Kong, until in 1867, Jeong Yim again return to Futsan..."

SO AT LEAST YOU NOW SEE THAT JEUNG YIM ESTABLISHED HIS SCHOOL IN 1851.


"In 1867, after a few years of learning choy li fut, Chan Heung appointed him to take over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San (modern-day Fo Shan), which was established in 1848 by Chan Din Yao and Chan Din Fune, two of Chan Heung's first students."

JOSEPH, THE ABOVE WAS WRITTEN BY ONE OF YOUR CHAN FAMILY DISCIPLES. SO NOW WHAT?

[hskwarrior]

Yes, Jeung Yim Was Wanted By The Qing Empire In 1864. His School Was Ordered Closed, So He Fled To Hong Kong Where He Taught Until 1867.


Thats What We've Always Stated Joseph.

[extrajoseph]

[B]"In 1867, after a few years of learning choy li fut, Chan Heung appointed him to take over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San (modern-day Fo Shan), which was established in 1848 by Chan Din Yao and Chan Din Fune, two of Chan Heung's first students."
JOSEPH, THE ABOVE WAS WRITTEN BY ONE OF YOUR CHAN FAMILY DISCIPLES. SO NOW WHAT?

Get your information from the source and that is King Mui. Read the hand written manuscripts at least before the 1950s. After that, the political upheaval in China changed many things, including history.

[diego]

Reading the Poker game between Frank & Joseph led me on a Google search for more info on the rebellions CLF been in.

Found this: A strategy computer game based on the Taiping Rebellion has been made in China, and is primarily available in mainland China and Taiwan. The player can play as either the Qing government or the Taiping Rebels.

^looks very cool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion