Wing Chun in The Guard Position

[r4cy]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing himclose to you to avoid getting hit?

[STUDD WILSON]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing him close to you to avoid getting hit?

One it's difficult to punch while on the mat whether you are on top or underneath. The guard is a sucker postition for giving the advantage to the guy on the floor but unless the WC guy had a great handle on groundwork via BJJ or Judo then he would be pretty much at the mercy of the grapplers skills. Grappling on your feet and grappling on the floor are horses of different colors. If you grabbed him close to avoid getting hit then your only hope would be that he would wear out before you and you could take advantage of it.

In the real life scenario, just have one of your buds kick him in the head a few times. That should level the playing field.

[reneritchie]

WCK tends not to chase hands.

If you're being blitzed, you may have to worry about immediate protection, but just like standing, if all you do is engage the hands, eventually the hands will engage your face.

Even if you get good head and arm control, unless you're in a sanctioned MMA match and hoping for a ref to stand you up, control in and of itself won't help much (take the edge off a beating, but you're still stuck there being defensive).

One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

But, gravity will not be your friend, so trying to strike it it out from the guard is probably not a winning strategy.

Another advantage is bridge structure. To escape, you want to disrupt the opponent's base, remove their weight, create space, and then get out of there.

So, my own personal idea based on what I know today, would be to get offensive as quickly as possible to change the opponent's mindset and set up a strong pushing position, get them off balance and their weight off me, get my hips out while maintaining the strong alignment (so they don't just steam roll me back under them), and get to my feet ready to shoot or hit them (anything offensive) immediately.

I've only dabbled at this kind of stuff, though, so doubtless Alan, anerlich, ultimatewingchun and some others can give more practical assessments.

[reneritchie]

LOL, the classic problem with BJJ terminology. Is "in the guard" when you have your back to the floor and the other person is in between your legs, or is "in the guard" when you're kneeling or standing in between someone else's legs?

I thought the poster meant when we're using the guard position and someone else is attacking us from on top, between our legs.

STUDD took it the other way.

BTW, STUDD, I no longer use either the knee ram or the elbow pressure point as I've found them unreliable against people with good angling, high pain tolerance, and/or high-adrenalin situations. Some people can just suck that kind of stuff up and keep the guard closed, and I prefer high percentage. So, nowadays I try to stick to pure leverage (there's no sucking up body weight), or trickery :)

[STUDD WILSON]

LOL, the classic problem with BJJ terminology. Is "in the guard" when you have your back to the floor and the other person is in between your legs, or is "in the guard" when you're kneeling or standing in between someone else's legs?

I thought the poster meant when we're using the guard position and someone else is attacking us from on top, between our legs.

STUDD took it the other way.

BTW, STUDD, I no longer use either the knee ram or the elbow pressure point as I've found them unreliable against people with good angling, high pain tolerance, and/or high-adrenalin situations. Some people can just suck that kind of stuff up and keep the guard closed, and I prefer high percentage. So, nowadays I try to stick to pure leverage (there's no sucking up body weight), or trickery :)

I've never had that problem but I have extremely bony elbows. My old grappling buddy could withstand about anyone else but me in that regard. Not saying that I wouldn't meet anyone in the future that might be able to though. Against a good enough opponent nothing will work. But that is for the ring anyway as if anyone is dumb enough to try and sucker anyone into the gaurd in a real streetfight then he deserves whats coming to him (my buddy stomping his butt).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've never had that problem but I have extremely bony elbows. My old grappling buddy could withstand about anyone else but me in that regard. Not saying that I wouldn't meet anyone in the future that might be able to though. Against a good enough opponent nothing will work. But that is for the ring anyway as if anyone is dumb enough to try and sucker anyone into the gaurd in a real streetfight then he deserves whats coming to him (my buddy stomping his butt).

The guard position is quite old, its even in Chin Na.
Someone that knows the guard and how to use it can take out almost anyone from it.
Certainly the "multiple attacker" scenario changes things but, IF wa son the ground VS more than 1, I would rather be under in control than on top getting kicked in the head or worse.
At least from the guard I can position him or/and myself better to use him as a shield if need be.

[k gledhill]

the natural thing would be to throw arms out to strike/block , but this just offers your arm to be broken/submitted as they roll off you with the arm , bad. I train with my student who teaches wrestling and studies bjj...best thing is to do a neck grab and keep the guy close to your chest to shut him down , shrimping etc... but thats why they call it wrestling .. I dont try to go there from experience of group fights and glass objects being smashed into faces , waste of good beer :D

[Phil Redmond]

I love this subject. I'd like hear WC solutions to the ground and pound if you're on your back.

[couch]

I love this subject. I'd like hear WC solutions to the ground and pound if you're on your back.

What good responses! Stoked to hear more.

[Liddel]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practitioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to control the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabbing him close to you to avoid getting hit?

Grabbing close is playing his game and turns you into a sitting duck if you have no skills/experience IME. Ive being controlled so well i had no other choice. :o

Chasing hands is not my cup of tea standing up, let alone out of my element.

On my back ive only got covering and hitting. Thrusting my knuckles into the windpipe in repeated stabbing motions...never leave a hand out. Pushing the head away and launching elbows after letting the tension go.....Holding the hair and palm striking the chin and follow through to twist the head around.

If i'm in his guard :rolleyes:

Ive used elbows to good effect. I had my wrists being held to stop me raining down from the top position. Folding elbows is my heaviest action. Kup Jarn, stresses the grip too so it can release a hand with good power.

I use the idea one hand moves and the other catches, chi sao. helps to stop the opponent reading your intentions.

I also like to stand/posture up and launch stomps at the head. Be quick though cause you risk leg subs :rolleyes:

I have limited rolling experience but a few friends in my sparring group have tonnes, none BB's.

Ive learn't a lot though.

DREW

[Wayfaring]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing himclose to you to avoid getting hit?

Wrist control and/or chi sau from guard (opponent in your guard) is not preferrable. If your opponent can posture up and come to one foot they can use top position leverage to throw elbows over the top even with your wrists controlling. It takes a large amount of grappling skill to effectively play a wrist control game in no-gi from guard.

From a closed guard you need to keep control of your opponent by keeping them close to you with head and arm control. If they posture up and get position, go to open guard.

From an open guard, you can keep your opponent away with feet in hips and make enough space to get to your feet.

A very useful exercise to practice in guard is unbalancing your opponent with your legs grip. Have them posture up and throw some bombs down from the top. You can get timing going where just as they begin the punch you bump them with your legs bringing your knees to your chest so that the punch misses over your head. Using your legs and balance for punch defense helps immensely from taking damage along with arms / hand defense.

I personally go more for shoulder / neck control from guard. Lately I've been hitting Mission Control -> New York -> Chill Dog -> Jiu Claw a whole lot more. Then I can either finish the omoplata or if they roll to escape ride it out to get top position. Or switch to finishing a triangle. A good tight high guard that controls the torso is one of the best offensive progressions available.

So the ultimate answer is develop some more skill. And there's a few pointers on things to work.

[Wayfaring]

Some key points when you are in someone's guard:

1. Keep squared up on them. If there is a line between your head and their head there aren't a whole lot of effective submissions you can get caught in. You get in trouble when they angle off on you, their head 45 degrees off from yours.
2. Both hands in or both hands out. One in + one out = triangled.
3. If you can pin them against something in back of their head (cage, wall, etc.) you can strike from the top effectively. Go to one foot, and throw a strike or an elbow from that side.
4. If you're aggressive you can strike from the top and dominate. Keep #1 in mind and crank up the offensive pressure.

[Wayfaring]

WCK tends not to chase hands.

If you're being blitzed, you may have to worry about immediate protection, but just like standing, if all you do is engage the hands, eventually the hands will engage your face.

If blitzed, get feet in their hips to create more distance.



Even if you get good head and arm control, unless you're in a sanctioned MMA match and hoping for a ref to stand you up, control in and of itself won't help much (take the edge off a beating, but you're still stuck there being defensive).

Stalling there is preferrable to other alternatives. If you hip out continously rather than lay on your back, it produceds more options.



One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

Not a good idea. Save your energy for strikes from structure.



So, my own personal idea based on what I know today, would be to get offensive as quickly as possible to change the opponent's mindset and set up a strong pushing position, get them off balance and their weight off me, get my hips out while maintaining the strong alignment (so they don't just steam roll me back under them), and get to my feet ready to shoot or hit them (anything offensive) immediately.

Those are good ideas but it takes training to keep on offense from your back.



I've only dabbled at this kind of stuff, though, so doubtless Alan, anerlich, ultimatewingchun and some others can give more practical assessments.
Actually, Knifefighter (Dale) would rock on some of these discussions.

[Wayfaring]

Someone that knows the guard and how to use it can take out almost anyone from it.

I disagree. Most modern MMA shows that the guard in an MMA situation is not as dominant as a top position, even being in someone's guard. Personally although I work guard a decent amount I am much more confident with passing people's guard (even with experience) than I am submitting from guard. It's higher percentage for me to play top position becuase it's a high likelihood of me passing guard.

[anerlich]

I don't believe WC in itself really has a strategy for the situation where you're on your back and holding someone in the guard. It has strategies when you're on the ground and he is standing which are similar, viz. get your legs between you and him, and kick his legs and anything else to keep him away, or entangle his legs to take him down, getting enough time, space - and energy - to stand up yourself.

I wouldn't want to learn guard work from a WC guy, PERIOD. BJJ is everywhere these days, if this is a concern for you learn from some one who teaches a purpose built system.

John Will's (3rd degree Machado BB) standard response when teaching law enforcement personnel and others wanting a "crash course":

protect your head while he is blitzing with a "shell" or similar structure (spike, visor) with the arms

Pull him forward with your legs while his hands are busy

When his chest touches your arms, swim for tight double overhooks.

When the over hooks are on, place your feet between his and hook both ankles with your insteps - stretch him out flat, or move yourself away from his feet for the same result.

Get your hooks in, one at a time, then hook sweep him to mount. Depending on circumstance, bash/submit him from the mount, apply restraints, or switch to kneeride, punch and run.

Basically, if strikes are allowed, you either want him really close (neck control and overhook, or other postures depending on his hand position), or really far away - push his hips away with both feet. In between you are vulnerable to strikes.

The guard bottom is NOT a superior position unless your skill is above that of your opponent - it's about neutral if you both have some idea. Bets being mounted or in side control, or kneeride though. If you let him posture up in the guard, he CAN throw bombs effectively, and use them to pass your guard.


One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

Nope. The power generation for most WC (and, I daresay, all) comes from posture, stance and footwork, all of which are absent on your back. The guy on top is way ahead where striking power is concerned. You can say "we do WC so we hit really hard" (not all would agree), but the other guy might do it too (I do) so you're usually screwed in a punching contest. The upkick to the head (e.g. Renzo KOing Oleg Taktarov), however, is definitely viable. And you can do some damage to his knees with your feet, too.

[YungChun]

I don't believe WC in itself really has a strategy for the situation where you're on your back and holding someone in the guard. It has strategies when you're on the ground and he is standing which are similar, viz. get your legs between you and him, and kick his legs and anything else to keep him away, or entangle his legs to take him down, getting enough time, space - and energy - to stand up yourself.

I wouldn't want to learn guard work from a WC guy, PERIOD. BJJ is everywhere these days, if this is a concern for you learn from some one who teaches a purpose built system.

John Will's (3rd degree Machado BB) standard response when teaching law enforcement personnel and others wanting a "crash course":

protect your head while he is blitzing with a "shell" or similar structure (spike, visor) with the arms

Pull him forward with your legs while his hands are busy

When his chest touches your arms, swim for tight double overhooks.

When the over hooks are on, place your feet between his and hook both ankles with your insteps - stretch him out flat, or move yourself away from his feet for the same result.

Get your hooks in, one at a time, then hook sweep him to mount. Depending on circumstance, bash/submit him from the mount, apply restraints, or switch to kneeride, punch and run.

Basically, if strikes are allowed, you either want him really close (neck control and overhook, or other postures depending on his hand position), or really far away - push his hips away with both feet. In between you are vulnerable to strikes.

The guard bottom is NOT a superior position unless your skill is above that of your opponent - it's about neutral if you both have some idea. Bets being mounted or in side control, or kneeride though. If you let him posture up in the guard, he CAN throw bombs effectively, and use them to pass your guard.



Nope. The power generation for most WC (and, I daresay, all) comes from posture, stance and footwork, all of which are absent on your back. The guy on top is way ahead where striking power is concerned. You can say "we do WC so we hit really hard" (not all would agree), but the other guy might do it too (I do) so you're usually screwed in a punching contest. The upkick to the head (e.g. Renzo KOing Oleg Taktarov), however, is definitely viable. And you can do some damage to his knees with your feet, too.
Nice job and explanation!

[chisauking]

Whilst people are on the subject of what ifs.....

How would you deal with the following:

1) If someone has you in a choke with a knife behind your back?

2) If someone has their thumbs in your eye sockets?

3) If someone is about to take a chuck out of your artery?

4) If someone has a broken bottle up against your face?

[monji112000]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing himclose to you to avoid getting hit?

If you are really interested in the guard and positions that follow a "wing chun philosophy" take a look at BJ's mma book. The first thing that comes to mind is the sit up guard. The basics of the position is that you close the distance and sit up. One hand is across the opponents neck (a fook sao) coming down across his chest. p.184 .

I have used this position is sparring, and rolling. It works much better for sparring, it allows you to 1) cut the distance for any further attacks, and 2) prepare to stand up or sweep.
JMO its very similar to how I was trained to use the lan sao.

The basic method of standing up, also really for me fits with WC.

I also like BJ's **** good guard,If you are going to stay on your back... its a perfect position to cover all strikes. p.201

The concepts of striking still are present, but you don't have the power, and you must avoid getting hit.

Trapping hands (as a general concept) , gua sow, bong sao are all things I use in my guard when I train.

really if you start analyzing it, allot of technqiues use WC principles. This to me prooves that WC is effective. Ofcourse I look outside the box.
:)

as a general view point of WC, assume he is stronger, better, faster ect..
I also feel that eddies suggestion of breaking the person down, and controlling him is for me exactly what trapping hands is about. These are the first 2 things I try when I have someone in my guard.

[monji112000]

I love this subject. I'd like hear WC solutions to the ground and pound if you're on your back.

if you really start looking at what other MMA people are doing (the good ones) you will find that strategies are completely compatible with WC. JMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQw3BKjz5fQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1x1KfXM-74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Wq7I4Aceg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqKYeaUkK0o&NR=1
You can't tell me you don't see WC concepts in these clips. If you don't honestly... maybe you shouldn't be teaching WC. JMO

[monji112000]

I disagree. Most modern MMA shows that the guard in an MMA situation is not as dominant as a top position, even being in someone's guard. Personally although I work guard a decent amount I am much more confident with passing people's guard (even with experience) than I am submitting from guard. It's higher percentage for me to play top position becuase it's a high likelihood of me passing guard.
this depends on so many factors, how good is the person at the guard? what strategies is he using? is the a sparring session or a bar fight? a MMA fight? a grappling match? You don't need to look at the guard as a submission position, many people sweep or get up. The reality is even if you suck at the guard, you pull guard if you need to. You can with some basic training defend against allot of things, in comparison to being mounted or having him on your back.

[STUDD WILSON]

In my experience the best answer for working the guard is to trap one of the opponents arms nearer to the shoulder in a lock and work around to his side for a submission. When you get the arm that close to his torso it limits what he can do and any punching is innefective. I'm not sure how this would apply to Wing Chun and trapping hands.
I was never a big fan of the mount but thats only because if you are smaller than the guy on the bottom he can easily roll you off if he knows what he is doing. I personally could never work the mount effectively because al the guys I grappled with were larger than me. I had lots more success with the side mount as you can more easily control the hips while working on a arm lock or headlock.

When all is said and done I still maintain that when it goes to the ground it becomes a ground game and any martial arts that are geared towards stand up fighting become pretty innefective. If you can find some way of utilizing some techniques from your style then congratulations. Punching is pretty much a waste of time as your punches will only have about 1/5 of the power you can generate while on your feet.

[monji112000]

I was never a big fan of the mount but thats only because if you are smaller than the guy on the bottom he can easily roll you off if he knows what he is doing. I personally could never work the mount effectively because al the guys I grappled with were larger than me. I had lots more success with the side mount as you can more easily control the hips while working on a arm lock or headlock.
I have seen small guys hold the mount on big people. its all about knowing how to use your body, and logic... plus training it over and over again.

[reneritchie]

A couple of notes from my experience:

I've had the good fortune to train with Bravo (amazing coach), and while I love his half guard and twister (his bread and butter, though people seem more distracted by his rubber guard), he uses a very pull-based philosophy for a lot of his bottom work (double underhooks included), which while it can be excellent in BJJ and MMA, in my experience doesn't involve the most WCK-like of mechanics, so if we're talking what's most natural and high percentage for a WCK person who's not training BJJ for hours a day, I stick with push-based guard work being a more natural, high percentage strategy. (Likewise, Bravo's stuff requires either good flexibility or high degree angulation to pull off, nevermind the wake'n'bake aspect, which again might not fit an average WCK person integration). I think Andrew S. trained regularly with Bravo, so he could let me know if there's something obvious I'm missing.

On striking while in the guard:

There's some stuff in general MMA (least how it's trained in Montreal, and as the next UFC indicates, they do some training around these parts) which isn't too dissimilar to WCK, especially involving elbows simultaneous to posting back and getting out, which was where I was coming from (and where I tie back into the pushing system). I've worked these off tackles (being tackled, getting guard or half-guard, and working to get back up) and they (so far) fit in. Outside MMA, heads become dreadful factors as well (mostly for the person on the bottom).

I like the upkick.

[STUDD WILSON]

I have seen small guys hold the mount on big people. its all about knowing how to use your body, and logic... plus training it over and over again.


As have I. But get a couple of guys together with good grappling skills and the bigger guy will almost always be able to throw the mount. Back in he early days of MMA you saw a lot of that with guys like Royce pummeling big dudes but those guys weren't the greatest grapplers in the world. It's like anything else where equal skills come into play the guy with the size and strength will have the advantage.

[anerlich]

if you really start looking at what other MMA people are doing (the good ones) you will find that strategies are completely compatible with WC. J

That may be true, but it certainly doesn't mean that if you do WC you'll be able to do what they do.

If you try to learn BJJ with a WC mindset, you'll maybe be a little ahead of the complete newbies for a short time, but after a while the mindset gets in the way. Like everything else, let go the ego, empty your cup, and listen to what the black belt is telling you.

[anerlich]

How would you deal with the following:

1) If someone has you in a choke with a knife behind your back?

2) If someone has their thumbs in your eye sockets?

3) If someone is about to take a chuck out of your artery?

4) If someone has a broken bottle up against your face?
Reply With Quote

Try to talk them out of hurting you.

Too late for your MA, whatever it is. You screwed up.

Was there a point to these questions?

[monji112000]

A couple of notes from my experience:

I've had the good fortune to train with Bravo (amazing coach), and while I love his half guard and twister (his bread and butter, though people seem more distracted by his rubber guard), he uses a very pull-based philosophy for a lot of his bottom work (double underhooks included), which while it can be excellent in BJJ and MMA, in my experience doesn't involve the most WCK-like of mechanics, so if we're talking what's most natural and high percentage for a WCK person who's not training BJJ for hours a day, I stick with push-based guard work being a more natural, high percentage strategy. (Likewise, Bravo's stuff requires either good flexibility or high degree angulation to pull off, nevermind the wake'n'bake aspect, which again might not fit an average WCK person integration). I think Andrew S. trained regularly with Bravo, so he could let me know if there's something obvious I'm missing.

On striking while in the guard:

There's some stuff in general MMA (least how it's trained in Montreal, and as the next UFC indicates, they do some training around these parts) which isn't too dissimilar to WCK, especially involving elbows simultaneous to posting back and getting out, which was where I was coming from (and where I tie back into the pushing system). I've worked these off tackles (being tackled, getting guard or half-guard, and working to get back up) and they (so far) fit in. Outside MMA, heads become dreadful factors as well (mostly for the person on the bottom).

I like the upkick.
push and pull are both highly used in WC. Chi sao is basically a game of push and pull in the most simplistic manner.

[monji112000]

That may be true, but it certainly doesn't mean that if you do WC you'll be able to do what they do.

If you try to learn BJJ with a WC mindset, you'll maybe be a little ahead of the complete newbies for a short time, but after a while the mindset gets in the way. Like everything else, let go the ego, empty your cup, and listen to what the black belt is telling you.

its not about ego. WC isn't a mindset, its a group of ideas. Its like telling a piano player to forget playing the piano when he dances with a woman... its not possible you fuse your feelings together. Humans are not cups, they can't be emptied and filled at will. You draw from your life, even if you say you don't. I listen to every word the black belt tells me, I even write them down. (I want to get as much for the $$ I'm paying). Its the same if you take MT, CLF, lama pai person who starts a sport. Every styles has principles, lama's was stuff like ruthlessness ect... should someone forget those ideas? can they if they really trained them?

[monji112000]

As have I. But get a couple of guys together with good grappling skills and the bigger guy will almost always be able to throw the mount. Back in he early days of MMA you saw a lot of that with guys like Royce pummeling big dudes but those guys weren't the greatest grapplers in the world. It's like anything else where equal skills come into play the guy with the size and strength will have the advantage.
of course. when skill is about the same natural ability will normally win. strength can and does win in allot of places.

[Edmund]

push and pull are both highly used in WC. Chi sao is basically a game of push and pull in the most simplistic manner.

From the guard, you very seldom want to just pull them directly onto yourself (Like in Chi sao also). It has a tendency of flattening yourself out with their weight immobilizing you. You just get a more stuck version of the same position. Similarly pushing directly away doesn't get you that much space when you are going directly against their downward weight.

Generally you want some sort of deflection or leverage method to create movement or space to move yourself. The opponent's base is usually 3 or 4 points of contact where their weight is resting. Sometimes it's resting on you. You want to block/hold one of those points and pull/push at another one. Usually you try block the point with the most weight and try to lever a lighter one.

They will have to adjust their base points to avoid getting swept over. This gives you a chance to submit them, get to your knees and then your feet or take their back.

The more of your weight you can hang off them while they're doing that will slow their movement down and give you the time you need to do your offense. But sometimes it can be easy as pushing their hands to the ground on one side of you and just quickly spinning around to their back.

[Wayfaring]

A couple of notes from my experience:

I've had the good fortune to train with Bravo (amazing coach), and while I love his half guard and twister (his bread and butter, though people seem more distracted by his rubber guard), he uses a very pull-based philosophy for a lot of his bottom work (double underhooks included), which while it can be excellent in BJJ and MMA, in my experience doesn't involve the most WCK-like of mechanics, so if we're talking what's most natural and high percentage for a WCK person who's not training BJJ for hours a day, I stick with push-based guard work being a more natural, high percentage strategy. (Likewise, Bravo's stuff requires either good flexibility or high degree angulation to pull off, nevermind the wake'n'bake aspect, which again might not fit an average WCK person integration). I think Andrew S. trained regularly with Bravo, so he could let me know if there's something obvious I'm missing.

Eddie's a great coach. I've attended his seminars and a group of guys I work with drill his game. His half guard game is fundamental in my opinion to a bottom game. I work all of that and with larger more athletic opponents it gives you an edge.

I haven't worked up his twister stuff yet, but do highly value his rubber guard game. I don't think it takes as much flexibility as people say it does. It does take working it a while to get the feel for the progression. But it gives you control and offense from the guard no-gi which you need to offset gravity.

I really don't think much about whether any BJJ involves WCK mechanics or not learning it. As I've progressed in my ground game, I have put together a lot of core fundamentals that are very similar in BJJ and WCK. Facing, alignment, and connection between elbow / hip have a lot similar.

I'm not sure I understand the push vs. pull elements here. When I get mission control (1st position in rubber guard), you lock down an ankle and connect your elbow and hip on the other side - this provides structure just like a good WCK stance. New York position (2nd position) gets their hand to the mat with you still having a good structure. All the way through that progression you have well-connected posture like in a good WCK stance, and you are breaking down your opponent's structure, like in WCK.

What do you mean by a push-based approach? Are you talking wrist control and throwing up triangles?

[monji112000]

From the guard, you very seldom want to just pull them directly onto yourself (Like in Chi sao also).
ok so If someone is in my guard I don't want to pull them and brake their posture? I don't want to pull them "like in chi sao" but I should pull them like in...? last I checked pull and push are opposite directions nothing real complicated. JMO
I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar.

Not sure why anyone with a little common sense can't figure this one out.:rolleyes:

[reneritchie]

Hi Wayfaring,

Sorry, no, not throwing triangles or wrist control or anything like that.

What I'm referring to is that, for someone in WCK just looking to get familiar with being on the bottom and not training specifically for BJJ, I think pulling someone into you and doing tight closed guard like Eddie would be difficult (would require much more work, and would require training BJJ specifically). Most of Eddie's stuff is pull-based in that he loves pulling himself up, pulling his opponent down, pulling the tight underhooks, pulling their leg for old school, pulling your leg for missing control, pulling their neck for twister, etc.

For a WCK who isn't training BJJ, I think the strategy of pushing weight off, pushing to change angles, pushing to make space, pushing to get up off you back, etc. is easier to learn/realize. (More in keeping with Joe Moreira's lazy man guard, bench press escapes, etc.)

Personally, my first MA was judo, I did judo in college, and I've grappled for a few years, so I'm not too uncomfortable on my back (Fedor-style bombs not withstanding...), so I'm really just commenting on what I feel is easiest/fastest for a non-grappling WCK person to integrate if they just want to get out of the guard (having someone in their guard).

[anerlich]

its not about ego.

It is if you think that what you have spent a lot of time learning in one scenario is necessarily going to work better in every other situation than the ideas the instructor is presenting.


WC isn't a mindset, its a group of ideas.

A mindset is viewing the world through a particular group of ideas and/or prejudices.


Its like telling a piano player to forget playing the piano when he dances with a woman... its not possible you fuse your feelings together. Humans are not cups, they can't be emptied and filled at will. You draw from your life, even if you say you don't.

The cup is an analogy (duh). A fairly valid one IMO and one well known to most CMA or JMA practitiioners. You can draw from your previous experience, don't kid yourself it's necessarily the most valid way to learn the skill you are trying to learn. You're making it out to be black and whilte when it's shades of grey.


I listen to every word the black belt tells me, I even write them down. (I want to get as much for the $$ I'm paying).

Sensible lad. So do I and just about every other serious BJJ student and instructor I know. I do it to remember and reflect on what I've been shown and learned rather than because of pecuniary issues.


Its the same if you take MT, CLF, lama pai person who starts a sport. Every styles has principles, lama's was stuff like ruthlessness ect... should someone forget those ideas? can they if they really trained them?

You may surprise yourself if you try. You don't have to forget them, just don't hang onto them for grim death when you're trying to learn something new. (the lama guy might want to forget ruthlessness if he takes up salsa dancing, BTW).


Not sure why anyone with a little common sense can't figure this one out.

This thread isn't your soapbox. It's to share ideas. Try listening as well as trying so hard to impress others with your knowledge and insisting on being right. Basically, it gets back to that stuff I mentioned about the empty cup and the ego.

I agree that pulling them in to break their structure is a good tactic.

I use bits of the rubber guard, but I fear for my dodgy knees too much to get too deeply into it. One of the black belts at my club is fiendishly good at it and a couple of the other purple belts are pretty competent as well.

[monji112000]

It is if you think that what you have spent a lot of time learning in one scenario is necessarily going to work better in every other situation than the ideas the instructor is presenting.
you are correct, and thats why I don't think that :rolleyes:

Its really humerus, when you start to see what people learn and what they don't learn. Maybe your cup was already empty before you filled it?;) Still has nothing to do with the fact that "I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar." :(

IE don't try to invent a new grappling style or be afraid to experiment with BJJ ect..
sounds to me like I'm saying learn the ideas the instructor is presenting. What do I know... I only wrote the text.:eek:

Just as a point, I can't do the rubber guard, and I don't plan on adding it to my game anytime soon. I am more impressed with his other ideas.

[Edmund]

ok so If someone is in my guard I don't want to pull them and brake their posture?


You don't break someone's posture by pulling alone unless they don't have good posture. If someone's posturing up with their hands, pulling them down is not that strong. After they've postured up, they are going to open your guard and pass.



I don't want to pull them "like in chi sao" but I should pull them like in...? last I checked pull and push are opposite directions nothing real complicated. JMO


You want to pull them so that their weight is pulled off you.
(You don't really want to pull someone straight towards you in chi sao either.)

It's not a 1 dimensional thing. "Push to the side" and "Pull to the side" can be the same direction done with a different hand.



I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar.


I think you should get on their wrists straight away actually. If you want to call it ground chi sao that's fine, but pull or push it to one side. Take it completely over your shoulder if you have to because if he locks down your hips he's going to kill a lot of your options and he can start to pass.

[reneritchie]

If the person's head breaks the plane of their hands (i.e. if their hands are pushing down on your hips, but their head is over your stomach or ribs), you can certainly pull with your legs and break their posture, and have them tumble over-head, but then what?

They've lost balance and control over their own momentum, but if you're not (more) skilled in BJJ what will you do with the opening? If they scramble and get back posture (even head down and arms on your sides), you're still squashed and they're more careful (and likely butting and smacking you in the side of the head).

Both Andrew and Edmund are wise and generous in their advice here. Unless you want to play the guard game, you have to escape, and if you can't escape immediately (and you really should try, especially before they get settled), defend and create openings to escape.

[Wayfaring]

Hi Wayfaring,

Sorry, no, not throwing triangles or wrist control or anything like that.

What I'm referring to is that, for someone in WCK just looking to get familiar with being on the bottom and not training specifically for BJJ, I think pulling someone into you and doing tight closed guard like Eddie would be difficult (would require much more work, and would require training BJJ specifically). Most of Eddie's stuff is pull-based in that he loves pulling himself up, pulling his opponent down, pulling the tight underhooks, pulling their leg for old school, pulling your leg for missing control, pulling their neck for twister, etc.

For a WCK who isn't training BJJ, I think the strategy of pushing weight off, pushing to change angles, pushing to make space, pushing to get up off you back, etc. is easier to learn/realize. (More in keeping with Joe Moreira's lazy man guard, bench press escapes, etc.)

Personally, my first MA was judo, I did judo in college, and I've grappled for a few years, so I'm not too uncomfortable on my back (Fedor-style bombs not withstanding...), so I'm really just commenting on what I feel is easiest/fastest for a non-grappling WCK person to integrate if they just want to get out of the guard (having someone in their guard).

OK - I got you. Playing an open guard like Moreira's, getting a foot in hips, pushing off, and standing up.

I think having two options is good here for non-grapplers - one a closed guard and getting upper body control like Andrew said - double overhooks or one overhook and neck control is good to keep someone from throwing leather from the top. Combine this with unbalancing with the legs to get someone into closed guard.

The second option - an open guard that you work to make space to stand up. Foot in hips, push off, bench press, de la riva with one foot in a hip and going for a single leg takedown, etc.

If people could work those 2 - closed guard for keeping from being hit, and open guard for getting back to striking range that would be decent.

[reneritchie]

Wayfaring,

Very well said! That way, if one way is somehow shut down, it could just open up the other way.

[anerlich]

Maybe your cup was already empty before you filled it?

Not sure what you're implying.

I was awarded gold sash / instructor level in TWC in 1995, and started BJJ in 1998. I also had about five years each of Xingyi/BaGua and another eclictic KF style. If I'd thought my cup was better at least partially filled, that was certainly possible. But I found out it wasn't, for me at least. Somewhere around blue belt level or before.

Pushing the head away to the side, especially when they've grabbed your legs and are trying to pass, is an effective tactic. Arm drag (pull) from sitting/butterfly guard works beautifully in a pure grappling situation, though you want to watch for strikes if they're on. Rene gave a good description of how to break the guy down in closed guard when the opportunity presents itself. Getting them off to the side while you do this might get you a kimura, sweep or head/arm choke.

[Wayfaring]

I use bits of the rubber guard, but I fear for my dodgy knees too much to get too deeply into it. One of the black belts at my club is fiendishly good at it and a couple of the other purple belts are pretty competent as well.

The one area in rubber guard I've seen people jack up their knee ligaments is trying to power into Mission Control when they don't have posture broken down. There's a point past where posture is broken that Mission Control is a tight locked hold. If it's loose, or they get postured up, let go and go back to guard. Break their posture again, then go for Mission Control. Eddie uses bringing the other foot over for Crackhead control too.

The only thing absolutely not to do is try to break their posture with your leg across. That is your sideways knee ligament stablizers fighting against their back muscles. This fight ends up with people out of commision for 6 months.

Other than that one point, I have not experienced any dangerous issues with any of his game, rubber guard, half guard, butterfly, etc. I don't use his game 100%, but it's blended too.

[Wayfaring]

Pushing the head away to the side, especially when they've grabbed your legs and are trying to pass, is an effective tactic. Arm drag (pull) from sitting/butterfly guard works beautifully in a pure grappling situation, though you want to watch for strikes if they're on. Rene gave a good description of how to break the guy down in closed guard when the opportunity presents itself. Getting them off to the side while you do this might get you a kimura, sweep or head/arm choke.

All good solid stuff.

[anerlich]

Wayfaring,

I have a dodgy medial ligament on one knee, and some cartilage damage on both. Not bad enough for a reconstruction. The bad knee is actually quite strong when fully flexed or straighter than about 90 degrees - it's getting that twist on in between that is my danger area. I can hit triangles reasonably well on one side but not the other.

I actually use mission control and retard control fairly regularly if the guy is hunkered down. Crackhead control and all the gogoplata, locoplata, the "kung fu move", etc. where you're really cranking that knee past the guy's head, etc. fill me with dread.

All his half guard and butterfly moves are good stuff IMO, though a lot of instructors teach similar stuff anyway. A few guys at my gym have some of the twister game, my current interests lie elsewhere for now.

[Wayfaring]

Wayfaring,

I have a dodgy medial ligament on one knee, and some cartilage damage on both. Not bad enough for a reconstruction. The bad knee is actually quite strong when fully flexed or straighter than about 90 degrees - it's getting that twist on in between that is my danger area. I can hit triangles reasonably well on one side but not the other.

I actually use mission control and retard control fairly regularly if the guy is hunkered down. Crackhead control and all the gogoplata, locoplata, the "kung fu move", etc. where you're really cranking that knee past the guy's head, etc. fill me with dread.

All his half guard and butterfly moves are good stuff IMO, though a lot of instructors teach similar stuff anyway. A few guys at my gym have some of the twister game, my current interests lie elsewhere for now.

Cool. I understand about the limitations.

[reneritchie]

I went to Bravo's Kingston seminar right after straining my left ACL at a BJJ tournament. Since Eddie only trains one side, and that was the side, it was an interesting experience to say the least. (I also had a strained rib that day).

I survived by hipping out more to and turing in slightly to reduce the strain on my knee. Eddie didn't seem to have a problem with that. However, it did become problematic enough over time that I switched to focus on other (less knee-straining) stuff.

[Edmund]

OK - I got you. Playing an open guard like Moreira's, getting a foot in hips, pushing off, and standing up.

I think having two options is good here for non-grapplers - one a closed guard and getting upper body control like Andrew said - double overhooks or one overhook and neck control is good to keep someone from throwing leather from the top. Combine this with unbalancing with the legs to get someone into closed guard.

The second option - an open guard that you work to make space to stand up. Foot in hips, push off, bench press, de la riva with one foot in a hip and going for a single leg takedown, etc.

If people could work those 2 - closed guard for keeping from being hit, and open guard for getting back to striking range that would be decent.

I like it somewhat however option 1 of getting the closed guard often still ends up with you getting ground and pounded. This is the no.1 beginners mistake of tunnel-visioning towards closing the guard. They haven't got enough offense from the closed guard because it's tough to move with weight crushing them. Eventually the better opponents can open the guard and pass or still free their arms and ground and pound.

The beginner has to hold and wait for the opponent to try something and then attack depending on what they do. That requires a fair bit of knowledge, skill and sensitivity. A BJJ expert doesn't need as much space to do that but a beginner doesn't have that sense of timing.

I think for a beginner, they need to dumb it down even further to avoid that lack of skill issue.

i.e. Get overhook tight. Close the guard. Start shimmying the legs up under the armpits and twisting your head off to the overhook side and wriggling like hell. Push their head off to the other side and try to sit up omaplata sweep them. If it doesn't work at least your head is on the side where you've got his arm tightly locked. He will have a hard time punching you. Just hang on to that arm tight in the crease of your hip and keep sitting up and driving that leg deep under his armpit to keep away from his other hand. Don't let them step around over your head.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Where do you guys learn your WC? I spent 2 years learning to defend flat of my back. Also while training JJJ. Ring fighting has rules. Defending one's self in a dark street does not have rules. You need to learn how to be fierce and ruthless. If you get attacked by several people you need to be able to use your most deadly weapons. Not just physically, but mentally as well. Something you simply can not do in the ring. In the ring you can tap out or yell Uncle, but in a life and death situation in some dark place you do not have that option. You run the risk of actually being killed. Even if the guy or guys don't actually intend to kill you, a serious beating can get out of hand. I would rather be on the beating end myself. I don't think most of you ever have to worry about that, although some of you might one day be put into a situation where you have to do something like fight for life. Most people try not to put themselves into that situation, and that is the wise choice. But sometimes you just don't get to make the calls, and it would be to your benefit to learn some technique that you might just be able to use one day.

[monji112000]

Where do you guys learn your WC? I spent 2 years learning to defend flat of my back. Also while training JJJ. Ring fighting has rules. Defending one's self in a dark street does not have rules. You need to learn how to be fierce and ruthless. If you get attacked by several people you need to be able to use your most deadly weapons. Not just physically, but mentally as well. Something you simply can not do in the ring. In the ring you can tap out or yell Uncle, but in a life and death situation in some dark place you do not have that option. You run the risk of actually being killed. Even if the guy or guys don't actually intend to kill you, a serious beating can get out of hand. I would rather be on the beating end myself. I don't think most of you ever have to worry about that, although some of you might one day be put into a situation where you have to do something like fight for life. Most people try not to put themselves into that situation, and that is the wise choice. But sometimes you just don't get to make the calls, and it would be to your benefit to learn some technique that you might just be able to use one day.

why fight flat on your back? Its true you can tap in a sport, but honestly who says you need to stop in reality? you brake his leg, if you want you can continue. The reality is that (mma,bjj grappling whatever) can teach viable self defense (in some positions). One of the best ideas is standing up. Being able to put yourself in a positive position, stand up , make distance. Nobody says you need to pull a twister on someone in a bar fight. Your back in the last place you want to be. (ok the guard can be a good spot for some people). I am pretty sure JJJ doesn't teach people to be flat on their backs. Thats the first thing you learn. (well thats the first thing I learned).

the whole thing about not being killed in the ring is BS. Take someone like me and put them in the ring with a top MMA fighter. I would run up the fence so fast... as soon as the ref says fight... I would tap.

[Edmund]

Lee Chiang Po,

You aren't describing any solutions at all. For someone with your experience, I would have thought you would understand the technical aspects mentioned on this thread and would have some sort of details/opinion to offer.

All you have said is that you would be fierce. That doesn't help anyone. Frankly a lot of completely clueless people are fierce yet still they do badly on the ground because they lack the technical knowledge and experience.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . You can't tell me you don't see WC concepts in these clips. If you don't honestly... maybe you shouldn't be teaching WC. JMO
What does me teaching WC have to do with my wanting to see what others do on the ground?

[monji112000]

What does me teaching WC have to do with my wanting to see what others do on the ground?
Honestly, if someone has mastered a art, a group of techniques, they should be able to see them abstractly. ideally the person should not be stuck in a one track minded box. The reason not being that he should mix styles, but when you teach people you are faced with a variety of people and situations. You must adapt your skills you are teaching to the scenario. Its not a cheap shot, it was just a honest statement about people I choose to make my teacher.

[Phil Redmond]

Honestly, if someone has mastered a art, a group of techniques, they should be able to see them abstractly. ideally the person should not be stuck in a one track minded box. The reason not being that he should mix styles, but when you teach people you are faced with a variety of people and situations. You must adapt your skills you are teaching to the scenario. Its not a cheap shot, it was just a honest statement about people I choose to make my teacher.
And my response to your post is, yep.
I'm a 'martial artist' that does WC. So we are on the same page. You have to know or at least be familar with different aspects of combat. I make sure students understand that. That's why I wanted to see other peoples strategies from the ground. I could add to what I do.

[anerlich]

Where do you guys learn your WC?

Check my "Academy" link, sport. I think you fogot to mention where you learned yours, BTW.


I spent 2 years learning to defend flat of my back.

I've done BJJ for 7 years, so I guess I'm 3.5 times better at it than you are.


Also while training JJJ.

JJJ is not known for its groundfighting.


Ring fighting has rules. Defending one's self in a dark street does not have rules.

Thank you for sharing that amazing insight. :rolleyes:

Every post you make you come off sounding like some disgruntled over the hill shrivelled d0rk whining about how the young punks don't understand anything. You probably wonder why your opinions are largely ignored, but there's no mystery.

[namron]

G'day anerlich

just wondering how that dodgy fares in stand up.

Lookin for inspiration I guess.

After 3 ops (including the recon on anterior lig) right knee is rickey and wearin through, still wanting to continue the good fight but struggling.

I was to considering get back into things after a hiatus and perhaps concentrate a little more on BJJ and let TWC slide.

Be interested in any dos or donts on the ground and whether you reckon your knee cops a worse caning on the ground or in standup.

regards




Wayfaring,

I have a dodgy medial ligament on one knee, and some cartilage damage on both. Not bad enough for a reconstruction. The bad knee is actually quite strong when fully flexed or straighter than about 90 degrees - it's getting that twist on in between that is my danger area. I can hit triangles reasonably well on one side but not the other.

I actually use mission control and retard control fairly regularly if the guy is hunkered down. Crackhead control and all the gogoplata, locoplata, the "kung fu move", etc. where you're really cranking that knee past the guy's head, etc. fill me with dread.

All his half guard and butterfly moves are good stuff IMO, though a lot of instructors teach similar stuff anyway. A few guys at my gym have some of the twister game, my current interests lie elsewhere for now.

[monji112000]

And my response to your post is, yep.
I'm a 'martial artist' that does WC. So we are on the same page. You have to know or at least be familar with different aspects of combat. I make sure students understand that. That's why I wanted to see other peoples strategies from the ground. I could add to what I do.

seeing is great, I was only saying you should be able to relate. If you can't you probably don't fully grasp the concepts. Its a rather fun sport, but I also still enjoy other sports.

[anerlich]

Namron,

Surprisingly, standup per WC doesn't really bother my knees much at all.

BJJ's tougher on the knees for sure, but (touch wood) my body has sort of taught itself where it can and can't go. without danger.

Most dangerous of all IMO is clinch work and judo throws attacking the legs.
I've seen more knee injuries from guys gong too hard when they get tired from that than anything else.

The following link is IMO far and away the best reference for combat sports people with knee issues

http://www.grapplearts.com/ACL-Injury-FAQ.htm

Read it - it rocks.

[namron]

Thanks, much appreciated.

:)


Namron,

Surprisingly, standup per WC doesn't really bother my knees much at all.

BJJ's tougher on the knees for sure, but (touch wood) my body has sort of taught itself where it can and can't go. without danger.

Most dangerous of all IMO is clinch work and judo throws attacking the legs.
I've seen more knee injuries from guys gong too hard when they get tired from that than anything else.

The following link is IMO far and away the best reference for combat sports people with knee issues

http://www.grapplearts.com/ACL-Injury-FAQ.htm

Read it - it rocks.

[reneritchie]

anerlich is correct. Standing clinch (judo/wrestling) is a knee-buster.

Some types of open guard, if you're not careful and the other person dumps weight at the wrong angle, can be bad too...

[drleungjohn]

I always love when scenarios start with-"You're walking down a dark alley(street)--

WTF are you doing there in the first place?

Are you Bruce Wayne?

Are you bullet proof?

Do you have the glow?

Do you feel the need to test yourself?

When you walk into a haunted house and the house says GET OUT!-Do you stay?-and why did you go in,in the first place?

posted just for profound insight,thought provoking and hhmmmms

[reneritchie]

Dr. JohnC brings the correct. Pop-quizing the hot-shots:

"I would just use a gun!"

Do you have a gun? On you? Loaded? Can you draw it fast enough. Safety off? Have you trained stress-firing? Retention? Know how to put someone down fast enough that they don't still stab you with a knife within 25" even if shot?

"I would just run!"

To where? Do you know the area? Can you avoid getting caught in a dead end? In a worse area? How's your cardio? Is it better than that of the person chasing you? Your footwear conducive to running?

[monji112000]

Dr. JohnC brings the correct. Pop-quizing the hot-shots:

"I would just use a gun!"

Do you have a gun? On you? Loaded? Can you draw it fast enough. Safety off? Have you trained stress-firing? Retention? Know how to put someone down fast enough that they don't still stab you with a knife within 25" even if shot?

"I would just run!"

To where? Do you know the area? Can you avoid getting caught in a dead end? In a worse area? How's your cardio? Is it better than that of the person chasing you? Your footwear conducive to running?

thats true the gun thing is really silly in a SD situation. I would probably shoot myself first. Running is a real option. When I was younger I would get into fights allot, and if I thought I couldn't handle things... I would just turn and run. That may or may not work though.. it depends on the situation.

[monji112000]

The cup is an analogy (duh). A fairly valid one IMO and one well known to most CMA or JMA practitiioners. You can draw from your previous experience, don't kid yourself it's necessarily the most valid way to learn the skill you are trying to learn. You're making it out to be black and whilte when it's shades of grey.
..
Sensible lad. So do I and just about every other serious BJJ student and instructor I know. I do it to remember and reflect on what I've been shown and learned rather than because of pecuniary issues.
...
You may surprise yourself if you try. You don't have to forget them, just don't hang onto them for grim death when you're trying to learn something new. (the lama guy might want to forget ruthlessness if he takes up salsa dancing, BTW).
Basically, it gets back to that stuff I mentioned about the empty cup and the ego.
...
I agree that pulling them in to break their structure is a good tactic.
..
I use bits of the rubber guard, but I fear for my dodgy knees too much to get too deeply into it. One of the black belts at my club is fiendishly good at it and a couple of the other purple belts are pretty competent as well.
I was thinking about this thread today.. :rolleyes: good thing I didn't empty my cup or I wouldn't have this nice blue cloth to hold my pants up.

Not bragging or anything(not really sure if I earned it). Just thought it was funny all the bad advise people try to give you.. becouse they don't grasp whats going on.
rubber guard has 0 to do with knee flexibility.

anyway :D its nice anyone else got a blue (or higher)?

[anerlich]

good thing I didn't empty my cup or I wouldn't have this nice blue cloth to hold my pants up.

Well done you. I got my blue in 2003, my purple in 2007. BTW, the drawstring holds your pants up, the belt is to keep your jacket closed.


Not bragging or anything(not really sure if I earned it). Just thought it was funny all the bad advise people try to give you.. becouse they don't grasp whats going on.


I wouldn't start bragging just yet ... you got the blue belt blues to look forward to now. If you think getting to blue was challenging, getting to purple is a whole order of magnitude more challenging.

BTW, I think I grasp what's going on in BJJ just fine ... I'm well ahead of you, at least. :p


rubber guard has 0 to do with knee flexibility.

And here's you lecturing me about not grasping what's going on :rolleyes: I never said it had anything to do with knee flexibility. I said I have mildly dodgy knees and certain rubber guard moves hurt them. I know this better than you. I'm not Robinson Crusoe there, either. I also said I use some rubber guard moves (the ones that don't hurt). Go back and read, hotshot.

You seem to think you're an expert now you've got your blue ... you've just got an understanding of the basics. I wish you well, but you haven't earned the right to lord it over the rest of us just yet.


anyway its nice anyone else got a blue (or higher)?

Knifefighter is a black belt. I have a purple belt. So does Nick Forrer, and maybe some others. Quite a few are blue belts.

Yours is a worthy achievement, and I do not mean to belittle it. But there are more experienced people here than you, and you could benefit from their experience if you ....

empty ... no, I'd better not say it :D

[monji112000]

Well done you. I got my blue in 2003, my purple in 2007. BTW, the drawstring holds your pants up, the belt is to keep your jacket closed.



I wouldn't start bragging just yet ... you got the blue belt blues to look forward to now. If you think getting to blue was challenging, getting to purple is a whole order of magnitude more challenging.

BTW, I think I grasp what's going on in BJJ just fine ... I'm well ahead of you, at least. :p



And here's you lecturing me about not grasping what's going on :rolleyes: I never said it had anything to do with knee flexibility. I said I have mildly dodgy knees and certain rubber guard moves hurt them. I know this better than you. I'm not Robinson Crusoe there, either. I also said I use some rubber guard moves (the ones that don't hurt). Go back and read, hotshot.

You seem to think you're an expert now you've got your blue ... you've just got an understanding of the basics. I wish you well, but you haven't earned the right to lord it over the rest of us just yet.



Knifefighter is a black belt. I have a purple belt. So does Nick Forrer, and maybe some others. Quite a few are blue belts.

Yours is a worthy achievement, and I do not mean to belittle it. But there are more experienced people here than you, and you could benefit from their experience if you ....

empty ... no, I'd better not say it :D

lol:rolleyes:
yet again you missed 100% of everything I said and meant.
other than those people.. who else has atleast a blue here?

[Ultimatewingchun]

MMA heavyweight fighter (and former UFC champion) Josh Barnett has a vid out entitled: ATTACKING THE GUARD.

And believe it or not - at one point in the vid he starts to praise/use some wing chun hands as one weapon to use when caught in someones guard (he actually mentions that he had studied a bit of wing chun/chi sao/lop sao during some JKD training he once did).

But don't get the wrong idea: there's MUCH MUCH MORE to do and use when in someone's guard other than wing chun.

(Barnett is a catch wrestler who's also learned some striking - and about 90% of what he does to attack the guard is catch based).

[anerlich]

lol
yet again you missed 100% of everything I said and meant.

If so, the problem is with the communicator.

You got punked re your shiny new blue belt. Now shut up and let the adults talk.

[unkokusai]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position?




Lose, most likely.

[monji112000]

Lose, most likely.

wanna bet money on that assessment?



If so, the problem is with the communicator.

You got punked re your shiny new blue belt. Now shut up and let the adults talk.

:rolleyes:
ok
maybe I'm not an adult.. (yah.. sure ) but at least I understand how people learn and I really hope you don't teach. You can say whatever about me, my attitude, my shiny new blue belt (which I am proud to have) or my WC, the gym I train at or even the gym owner. LOL I guess I'm too childish to care. The fact will remain you do not even grasp the basic techniques and methods that teachers in every field/ subject use.
My criticism is and was of the idea that you must come with a "empty cup". Its a nice phrase for a movie but its really unrealistic and lacks real practicality. If you are simply saying keep a open mind or drop the ego at the door thats something all together different.

so go play adults.. lol since 2003 wow thats a long time to be training.. hope you have some skill to back up all the time on the mat.

anerlich just as a quick question your not the guy in the video on http://www.combatcentres.com/ ??
LOL


Brian

[unkokusai]

wanna bet money on that assessment?





If the other guy is an actual grappler that's a fine bet.

[monji112000]

If the other guy is an actual grappler that's a fine bet.

you can say the same thing about any position if your going to make that statement.
If a better fighter is in front of you, your going to have a problem no matter who you are:rolleyes:.. wtf?

anyway I'm still trying to figure out what techniques you could transfer.. to the gaurd.. Haven't found many yet.. don't think I will. outside of the basic punch and cover..

[anerlich]

I think you summed it up:


LOL I guess I'm too childish

[monji112000]

I think you summed it up:
;)
keep telling yourself that..

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter is a black belt.
2nd degree, no less... lol :)

Haven't checked in here for a long time, but I see not much has changed in the bickering department.

I still haven't quite figured out what it is about the internet that makes so many of us act like a$$holes when I doubt most of us are like that in real life.

[cjurakpt]

2nd degree, no less... lol :)

Haven't checked in here for a long time, but I see not much has changed in the bickering department.

I still haven't quite figured out what it is about the internet that makes so many of us act like a$$holes when I doubt most of us are like that in real life.

you should check out the 1bad / Rudy / Fox debacle if you really want to watch a slo mo car wreck in action

good to "hear" from you - it gets a bit dull talking biomechanics to myself...