Wing chun sparring clip

[forever young]

Hi all, i came across this clip It could be old news so apologies if it is.
I think its Aaron Baum of CSL/alan orr. Apparently he went down to the boiler room/Carlson Gracie london and asked to spar.
I would personally first like to give props to mr Baum/Alan orr for their promotion of wing chun as a valid fighting style and their apparent willingness to get out and 'mix it up' Comments appreciated but please keep critical comments constructive :D

LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGuWDuZTSa8)

[KPM]

I think you're right. I think that was one of Alan Orr's guys. Note...it wasn't his Wing Chun that was his weakness. It was his ground-fighting. This just shows that's its hard to keep from being taken down by someone who knows what they're doing! I think this also shows that its hard to do "classical" Wing Chun against someone that doesn't give you a good bridge to "stick" to and "follow." When someone is essentially boxing, you are in a situation where you have to "box" back a lot of the time. Alan talks about WCK as being "chinese boxing" and this clip reflects that. The person that posted on the clip with the comment "this isn't Wing Chun, just bad kickboxing" doesn't know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents!

[aaron baum]

hi guys

yes that is me being taken down at will by leo...ill get him one day..Lol...what you said KPM is true...also you have to bare in mind the level of leos ability to fight, i have skills and have competed and done relatively well but leo is a monster specimen and grappler who has won world titles...there arent many like him around thank god lol...this was also 3 years ago and i had barely started any proper ground fighting training, hence why i went to see leo to improve, and help me he did with a big cookie monster smile on his face...he is a true ronin and warrior..

this is the first time i met him...funny story attached to it as well...a friend who had started to train with him asked if i would like to train with leo, a multiple world jiu jitsiu champion who has grown up with noguera, anderson silva etc...so next`thing im stood outside carlson grace at 6am to train meet and train with him...we walk down into the boiler room which is a proper old school gym...small, smashed to bits etc...leo is asleep in a sleeping bag on the floor...he wakes up,climbs out says hello and asks if i have any gloves...i say yes...and 30 seconds later im sparring with a world champion with mma gloves on...quality...lol

it wasnt full bore just a friendly test of what we could do...it showed me 2 things...firstly there was no ego, no pride no bull****, he didnt know me or what i could do, yet he just wanted to spar straight off...and we immediately forged a respect and friendship...never met a man with so much skill and so much humility...hed drive you nuts being so brazilian in character but always fun to be around...secondly it helped me forge a spirit to fight at any time, anywhere...stop thinking about it, just do it...gloves on and go...

looking at the clip i think you could say i needed to learn how to sprawl..lol..but it showed my weaknesses which is the name of the game..filling the holes...

best

aaron

[t_niehoff]

but it showed my weaknesses which is the name of the game..filling the holes...


This point about "filling the holes" is CRUCIAL, and it shows a fighter's perspective. It takes GOOD QUALITY opponents to really show you your weaknesses (since they can step on the slightest mistake, and you can often get away with crap when playing with crap opponents). And you can't see the weaknesses in your game if you are not PLAYING the game.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not bad in the longer range standup, Aaron...but you didn't cover your lines/gates/distance adequately and each time you were taken down it was because he simply shot in underneath a punch you were throwing.

So the punches were not covering enough of the crucial space and in time to make him block or engage - he simply could slip underneath.

Won't get into what happened once on the ground and how I might have done it differently - since I just want to talk wing chun and standup right now.

But good to see the sparring. Keep on doin' it!

[t_niehoff]

Not bad in the longer range standup, Alan...but you didn't cover your lines/gates/distance adequately and each time you were taken down it was because he simply shot in underneath a punch you were throwing.

So the punches were not covering enough of the crucial space and in time to make him block or engage - he simply could slip underneath.

Won't get into what happened once on the ground and how I might have done it differently - since I just want to talk wing chun and standup right now.

But good to see the sparring. Keep on doin' it!


That was Aaron, not Alan.

Your "technical advice" is nonsense. Go try your "ideas" out against a top quality fighter like Leo (how close are you to Renzo and Serra's schools?), and you'll see that you will get taken down at will too. It's timing, pure and simple. You develop it by training (sparring) with really good people (who are really good because they have great timing). It's not something technical, it's not something you can get from anyone.

[forever young]

hi guys

yes that is me being taken down at will by leo...ill get him one day..Lol...what you said KPM is true...also you have to bare in mind the level of leos ability to fight, i have skills and have competed and done relatively well but leo is a monster specimen and grappler who has won world titles...there arent many like him around thank god lol...this was also 3 years ago and i had barely started any proper ground fighting training, hence why i went to see leo to improve, and help me he did with a big cookie monster smile on his face...he is a true ronin and warrior..

this is the first time i met him...funny story attached to it as well...a friend who had started to train with him asked if i would like to train with leo, a multiple world jiu jitsiu champion who has grown up with noguera, anderson silva etc...so next`thing im stood outside carlson grace at 6am to train meet and train with him...we walk down into the boiler room which is a proper old school gym...small, smashed to bits etc...leo is asleep in a sleeping bag on the floor...he wakes up,climbs out says hello and asks if i have any gloves...i say yes...and 30 seconds later im sparring with a world champion with mma gloves on...quality...lol

it wasnt full bore just a friendly test of what we could do...it showed me 2 things...firstly there was no ego, no pride no bull****, he didnt know me or what i could do, yet he just wanted to spar straight off...and we immediately forged a respect and friendship...never met a man with so much skill and so much humility...hed drive you nuts being so brazilian in character but always fun to be around...secondly it helped me forge a spirit to fight at any time, anywhere...stop thinking about it, just do it...gloves on and go...

looking at the clip i think you could say i needed to learn how to sprawl..lol..but it showed my weaknesses which is the name of the game..filling the holes...

best

aaron

Thanks for your comments Aaron and mad respect to you sir, i know those carlson guys are tough cookies :D

[forever young]

I think you're right. I think that was one of Alan Orr's guys. Note...it wasn't his Wing Chun that was his weakness. It was his ground-fighting. This just shows that's its hard to keep from being taken down by someone who knows what they're doing! I think this also shows that its hard to do "classical" Wing Chun against someone that doesn't give you a good bridge to "stick" to and "follow." When someone is essentially boxing, you are in a situation where you have to "box" back a lot of the time. Alan talks about WCK as being "chinese boxing" and this clip reflects that. The person that posted on the clip with the comment "this isn't Wing Chun, just bad kickboxing" doesn't know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents!

also i would agree with these comments, infact did you read my mind!!!!!!:eek::D

[guy b.]

I think if that is 3 years ago with minimal ground and standup grappling training you did quite well. How can a person with no grappling expect to beat a world class grappler in a 1 on 1 fight? The first few UFC's showed us that grappling trumps striking..you need a good grappling base to be able to use stiking in an NHB environment.

Talking about gates, lines and theory is crap when analysing this type of situation..it couldn't have gone any other way.

[Vio]

Not bad in the longer range standup, Alan...but you didn't cover your lines/gates/distance adequately and each time you were taken down it was because he simply shot in underneath a punch you were throwing.

So the punches were not covering enough of the crucial space and in time to make him block or engage - he simply could slip underneath.

Won't get into what happened once on the ground and how I might have done it differently - since I just want to talk wing chun and standup right now.

But good to see the sparring. Keep on doin' it!

But how exactly do you do that?

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Yes, this was 3 years ago when my student Aaron first hooked up with Leo for a spar. Since then Leo has been teaching my guys and me BJJ. Shame we don't have the clips of Aaron and Me going through the wall one night! lol that was funny.

This clip show Aaron's now famous 'Tree tunk defence' ie stand and then fall. LOL!

Aaron is well known for his hitting power, most of the guys at the gym can't trade with him. He is the most humble fighter I am proud to train him. Leo loves training my guys as they just get on with it, no egos.

Leo is a tough as nails fighter and a good friend. Every session is hard core.

Victor please go to Renzo and Serra's school and see if your ideas work out. Its the only way to really know. The timing of these top guys is another level.

I have trained with Renzo about 8 years ago, he is a nice as can be and a very high level. If you can stop someone of that level I would like to hear about it.


Regards

Alan

[monji112000]

Victor please go to Renzo and Serra's school and see if your ideas work out. Its the only way to really know. The timing of these top guys is another level.

I have trained with Renzo about 8 years ago, he is a nice as can be and a very high level. If you can stop someone of that level I would like to hear about it.


Regards

Alan
thats cool you guys train bjj. I personally believe grappling and WC are complementary arts. Thats cool you trained with Renzo, you can't really anymore. I visited the school, didn't get to meet him. All the same, I have allot of respect for him and his family (although I personal believe they are not as relevant anymore).

It looked like a fun sparring match. If you do make some clips, please let me know. as always its good watching you guys.

[Alan Orr]

thats cool you guys train bjj. I personally believe grappling and WC are complementary arts. Thats cool you trained with Renzo, you can't really anymore. I visited the school, didn't get to meet him. All the same, I have allot of respect for him and his family (although I personal believe they are not as relevant anymore).

It looked like a fun sparring match. If you do make some clips, please let me know. as always its good watching you guys.


Why do you think that? Serra is UFC champ. Renzo team is very strong. Roger G goes and trains with them and is a champion.

Who do you train with and what systems?

Thanks, we will putting up a lot of new sparring clips soon.

Regards

Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

The last thing I'm going to do, Alan, is walk into Serra or Renzo's school and ask to spar with someone so that I can show them how I can make it real difficult to get a clean shot at my legs or lower body because I'm too busy pounding them as they try to come in on lines that block the path they're trying to take - or make it so difficult that when they do shoot I have a clean sprawl or a
w h i z z e r awaiting them that puts me on top and them on the bottom.

That's a formula for some nasty 5hit to go down while in somebody else's school...LOL. No thank you.

But I'll show you and your guys when we get together. I actually see some very strong similarities between what Aaron was doing from long range and what I do from that range - but my standup game changes into a very different look once I force the issue (or the opponent forces it) to a closer stand up range. That's where the biggest differences lie. Which I'll be more-than-happy to share with you and your guys when we meet up.

And I still plan on some vids here on this forum covering similar scenarios with guys trained in other systems who might be visiting my school at some point during the remainder of this winter.

[namron]

That was some smooooooooooooooth SH 1 T:)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi all, i came across this clip It could be old news so apologies if it is.
I think its Aaron Baum of CSL/alan orr. Apparently he went down to the boiler room/Carlson Gracie london and asked to spar.
I would personally first like to give props to mr Baum/Alan orr for their promotion of wing chun as a valid fighting style and their apparent willingness to get out and 'mix it up' Comments appreciated but please keep critical comments constructive :D

LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGuWDuZTSa8)

Hey guys!

Having sparred with Former UFC champ Carlos Newton and other high rank grapplers. I can tell you it's suicide to use linear footwork and retracting punches like Aaron did (it's not wing chun theory, therefore not wing chun). And you can forget about sprawling, it only work momentarily until the grappler reverses it, since this is his world. As a wing chun fighter I recommend sticking to what we know best; jamming, sticking, uprooting his structure, while cutting angles constantly (footwork) in order to keep him mentally off timing, so that he doesn't feel comfortable to shoot. A grappler is no different than any other type of fighter in that he still needs his balance in order to execute his strategy. As a wing chun fighter one needs to change his mentality to an attacking one instead of being defensive, go after him by setting him up. Practice good timing and Hit him hard!!!

Navin

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post from the wing chun perspective, Navin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey guys!

Having sparred with Former UFC champ Carlos Newton and other high rank grapplers. I can tell you it's suicide to use linear footwork and retracting punches like Aaron did (it's not wing chun theory, therefore not wing chun). And you can forget about sprawling, it only work momentarily until the grappler reverses it, since this is his world. As a wing chun fighter I recommend sticking to what we know best; jamming, sticking, uprooting his structure, while cutting angles constantly (footwork) in order to keep him mentally off timing, so that he doesn't feel comfortable to shoot. A grappler is no different than any other type of fighter in that he still needs his balance in order to execute his strategy. As a wing chun fighter one needs to change his mentality to an attacking one instead of being defensive, go after him by setting him up. Practice good timing and Hit him hard!!!

Navin

Having have the opportunity to be beaten up by Carlos and Wagnney not to long ago, I can only agree with this part of your post:
" Practice good timing and [B]Hit him hard!!! "

Fact is, when a well trained grappler wants to get you down, you are going down, UNLESS you manage to get in something powerful enough to "ring his bell" and give you the opportunity to finish him off.
And you only get the skills to do that by training and drilling with the highest level guys you can get to.

As for the video clip, our MA have to be tested, a fighter MUST familiarize himself with what he may be facing and the best way to do that is like what was done on this video - go out and test VS the bets you can test on.

[k gledhill]

Hey guys!

Having sparred with Former UFC champ Carlos Newton and other high rank grapplers. I can tell you it's suicide to use linear footwork and retracting punches like Aaron did (it's not wing chun theory, therefore not wing chun). And you can forget about sprawling, it only work momentarily until the grappler reverses it, since this is his world. As a wing chun fighter I recommend sticking to what we know best; jamming, sticking, uprooting his structure, while cutting angles constantly (footwork) in order to keep him mentally off timing, so that he doesn't feel comfortable to shoot. A grappler is no different than any other type of fighter in that he still needs his balance in order to execute his strategy. As a wing chun fighter one needs to change his mentality to an attacking one instead of being defensive, go after him by setting him up. Practice good timing and Hit him hard!!!

Navin

Glad you said it...:D

[guy b.]

does anyone here seriously think they'd have done better in the same situation?

While I think going to fight or spar the bjj instuctor might be a bit stupid (bjj guys take this seriously and some nasty things have happened), props to Aaron for being willing to test himself and props for then continuing to train with the bjj instructor afterwards. To get better you have to be able to admit where you need to grow, and that means no ego which is a rare thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

does anyone here seriously think they'd have done better in the same situation?

While I think going to fight or spar the bjj instuctor might be a bit stupid (bjj guys take this seriously and some nasty things have happened), props to Aaron for being willing to test himself and props for then continuing to train with the bjj instructor afterwards. To get better you have to be able to admit where you need to grow, and that means no ego which is a rare thing.

Well said, fact is anyone that wants to test themselves in a grappling situation or VS a grappler has to do it like this, you don't get the same test VS guys in your own gym, not unless that gym caters to high level grapplers.
You have no idead how to handle the shoot of a trained grappler unless you go against a trained grappler and one of the highest level possible.

[t_niehoff]

Having sparred with Former UFC champ Carlos Newton and other high rank grapplers. I can tell you it's suicide to use linear footwork and retracting punches like Aaron did


It's great you've sparred with good guys, but that doesn't make your conclusions sound.

You can see other world class guys use linear footwork and get away with it. You or I could do anything and not get away with it. Why? Becasue it isn't the footwork -- it is the timing. As Alan said, they are on another level (why they are world-class and we're not).



(it's not wing chun theory, therefore not wing chun).


That's the mantra of a theoretician.

From my perspective, there is no "wing chun theory". There is what works for you and what doesn't. The "theory" is mostly the ramblings of people who can't make it work, have some lame ideas on how it should work, and put those ideas into pretentious form.



And you can forget about sprawling, it only work momentarily until the grappler reverses it,


You are looking at it from a "technique" perspective. A technique, the sprawl or anything else, won't and can't deal with a "game". It's like saying the ellbow escape won't work since the groundifghter will adjust to your escape. Of course he will! If your opponent has a takedown game or a ground game, you need a game yourself to deal with it.



since this is his world. As a wing chun fighter I recommend sticking to what we know best; jamming, sticking, uprooting his structure, while cutting angles constantly (footwork) in order to keep him mentally off timing, so that he doesn't feel comfortable to shoot.


The only way to beat skill is with skill.



A grappler is no different than any other type of fighter in that he still needs his balance in order to execute his strategy. As a wing chun fighter one needs to change his mentality to an attacking one instead of being defensive, go after him by setting him up. Practice good timing and Hit him hard!!!

Navin

Fighters who want to take you down will want to have you coming toward them, moving into them. The only way to learn how to move to deal with someone trying to take you down (by shooting) is to set your theories aside and to do it, to work with some really good wrestlers, learn what they are doing, how they setyou up, what they look for, how to read them, etc. WCK will not prepare you to deal with them. Only dealing with them, learning from them, will prepare you to deal with them.

[t_niehoff]

does anyone here seriously think they'd have done better in the same situation?

While I think going to fight or spar the bjj instuctor might be a bit stupid (bjj guys take this seriously and some nasty things have happened), props to Aaron for being willing to test himself and props for then continuing to train with the bjj instructor afterwards. To get better you have to be able to admit where you need to grow, and that means no ego which is a rare thing.

No, most WCK people would do much, much worse!

Like everything else, it comes down to how much quality time you've put in doing it -- sparring with someone good trying to shoot in and take you down. Spend little time doing it and you will have little skill doing it. Regardless of what you think you know.

I experienced the same things Aaron did some years ago. What I've found is that most MMA/BJJ fighters are pretty cool and if you approach them in the right way, with the right attitude -- they'll be happy to show you reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, most WCK people would do much, much worse!

Like everything else, it comes down to how much quality time you've put in doing it -- sparring with someone good trying to shoot in and take you down. Spend little time doing it and you will have little skill doing it. Regardless of what you think you know.

I experienced the same things Aaron did some years ago. What I've found is that most MMA/BJJ fighters are pretty cool and if you approach them in the right way, with the right attitude -- they'll be happy to show you reality.

Actually, if you just go to them and tell them you would like to test your skills VS them, they are very open to it, never know of any that aren't.
Everyone likes a good test.
Be civil, be nice and they will be the same.

[CFT]

In a way Aaron was always going to "fail" no matter what, simply because of the skills difference - not just the striking vs. grappling debate. You can't go along for a "friendly" spar and then hit them hard! You would have to hit them hard enough to knock them out or disable them. It just changes the whole basis of the encounter. I guess this is what Victor was alluding to.

[Wayfaring]

hi guys

yes that is me being taken down at will by leo...ill get him one day..Lol...what you said KPM is true...also you have to bare in mind the level of leos ability to fight, i have skills and have competed and done relatively well but leo is a monster specimen and grappler who has won world titles...there arent many like him around thank god lol...this was also 3 years ago and i had barely started any proper ground fighting training, hence why i went to see leo to improve, and help me he did with a big cookie monster smile on his face...he is a true ronin and warrior..

this is the first time i met him...funny story attached to it as well...a friend who had started to train with him asked if i would like to train with leo, a multiple world jiu jitsiu champion who has grown up with noguera, anderson silva etc...so next`thing im stood outside carlson grace at 6am to train meet and train with him...we walk down into the boiler room which is a proper old school gym...small, smashed to bits etc...leo is asleep in a sleeping bag on the floor...he wakes up,climbs out says hello and asks if i have any gloves...i say yes...and 30 seconds later im sparring with a world champion with mma gloves on...quality...lol

it wasnt full bore just a friendly test of what we could do...it showed me 2 things...firstly there was no ego, no pride no bull****, he didnt know me or what i could do, yet he just wanted to spar straight off...and we immediately forged a respect and friendship...never met a man with so much skill and so much humility...hed drive you nuts being so brazilian in character but always fun to be around...secondly it helped me forge a spirit to fight at any time, anywhere...stop thinking about it, just do it...gloves on and go...

looking at the clip i think you could say i needed to learn how to sprawl..lol..but it showed my weaknesses which is the name of the game..filling the holes...

best

aaron

Good stuff. You can't really tell too much from the clip about Leo Negao's skills other than he has solid takedowns and a tight mount, just because he doesn't have much resistance there. I'm sure he's getting some more resistance from you by now.

There's a few other clips on YouTube of him, like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv_-Qm4sU5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd5w_fkTJxw

He looks like a very solid competition BJJ BB that trained at Brasa in Brazil. And a solid MMA guy. And from the second clip, looks like he's pretty laid back and fun to train with.

Good stuff.

[aaron baum]

hi guys...

cheers CFT...i wanted to train with leo in the future and learn what he had to give in the way of shooting and grappling etc...i respect him, what hes done and the fact that we were in his school...would you roll with any Wing Chun master first time and try to smash him really hard? If i had hit him hard he may have second thoughts on wanting to teach me, plus he can hit like a mother and why do i want to end up full power sparring with MMA gloves on at 6AM with a beast? i wanted to learn what he had, not stop him showing me what he could do..i caught him with a couple of nice shots, nothing crazy, he acknowledged after that i had power, i acknowledged he could kick my arse and it was all good after....i didnt need to prove i could hurt him to stop him taking me down.....still should of sprawled though!! ah the tree trunk defence strikes again!!

best

aaron

[aaron baum]

hi wayfaring...

cheers...hes real good guy, very funny to be around when hes not ragging you round the gym like a doll...hes got a real good mix of Jiu jitsu plus a strong wrestling flavour as well as being a proper human specimen...killer combo...he's as tough as nails and loves the scrap...many a time ive seen him using electrical gaffer tape to wrap hes head to stop cauli ear...why use a cap when you can use silver tape instead? nutter! lol...

best

aaron

[aaron baum]

by the way...

this was a private video that has been posted without talking to either of us...

[k gledhill]

terence again with the rebuttal mantra :D

[Ernie]

hi guys...

cheers CFT...i wanted to train with leo in the future and learn what he had to give in the way of shooting and grappling etc...i respect him, what hes done and the fact that we were in his school...would you roll with any Wing Chun master first time and try to smash him really hard? If i had hit him hard he may have second thoughts on wanting to teach me, plus he can hit like a mother and why do i want to end up full power sparring with MMA gloves on at 6AM with a beast? i wanted to learn what he had, not stop him showing me what he could do..i caught him with a couple of nice shots, nothing crazy, he acknowledged after that i had power, i acknowledged he could kick my arse and it was all good after....i didnt need to prove i could hurt him to stop him taking me down.....still should of sprawled though!! ah the tree trunk defence strikes again!!

best

aaron

You know Aaron ,
what you did was the proper way to train and spar ,, regardless of what style or what '' techniques '' are being used and to what ever degree causal observers and back seat drivers wish to see LOL

Sparring is not fighting ,, it's a work out and it's fun ,, your asking the guy in front of you to hold up a mirror through his eyes to help you improve ,, not some ego driven smash and pound d*ck swinging campaign ....

I was always brought up to look for guys that exploited my weakness and to be thankful for that ,,, if one spends his time trying to '' show how good he is '' then he never learns and his skills will get stagnate or he just injures his partners and runs out of people to train with real quick =)

Allan and yourself and crew are doing good things and shedding light on what '' real'' training is like regardless of what ever our VT differences might be I got respect for you cats doing your thing , your way and opening the minds of people that '' talk '' instead of ''experience ''

to bad I didn't run into you guys a few years back when I was more into my sparring and conditioning ,, man we would have had fun !

keep up the good work and good luck to you and the crew in all the adventures the future will bring you !

wing chun needs a breath of fresh air ;)

[LoneTiger108]

From my perspective, there is no "wing chun theory". There is what works for you and what doesn't. The "theory" is mostly the ramblings of people who can't make it work, have some lame ideas on how it should work, and put those ideas into pretentious form.

Familiar ramblings there Terence! ;) Totally understandable, if everyone was you, but I have to say a word for us 'theoretical types' as I believe that 'theory' is what makes Wing Chun Wing Chun! That is what highlights a 'schooled' student. And ultimately that is what unifies ALL OF US.

After meeting Alan and Aaron only once I, at least, can say that I am TRYING to enter the debate. I'm TRYING to hear how others train. I'm TRYING to get out there and actually meet people. And I'm TRYING to learn from people with genuine skill. Not only that, but I'll probably be at the next meeting too and assist as much as I can in the development of a safe chisau competition at Seni this year. These guys came across as humble, seasoned fighters and teachers who only want to see the standard raise and for Wing Chun to regain some credibility in the MMA circuits. All good imho and well worth looking into further.

A refreshing outlook for the future of the Wing Chun Family...

[Wayfaring]

to bad I didn't run into you guys a few years back when I was more into my sparring and conditioning ,, man we would have had fun !


Ernie,

Stop talking like an old man. It weirds me out.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[Ernie]

Ernie,

Stop talking like an old man. It weirds me out.

Other than that, I agree with you.

LOL just being honest bro

I know what it takes to train / spar at a decent level and I have grown tired of being on the injured reserved list ;)

looking forward to my golden years :D

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Yes, its interesting. This was Aaron and Leo playing. As the spar was very light Aaron was not hitting hard at all. Would he be taking down anyway? Maybe or maybe not if he landed hard punches, but its not the point at all. Leo is also a very strong striker. In the end that was not the reason for both of them to train. Leo is a very cool guy and as Aaron said we went to him to train our BJJ. Leo has said many times that my guys are excellent strikers. He is a very opened minded teacher and was interested in the way we used own body structure. Thats what you find in MMA. Guys listen to what works. Thats the way we train our wing chun. This clip was not really as a sparring match as all. It was just training. It was not a fight at all.

Best

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Guys

Yes, its interesting. This was Aaron and Leo playing. As the spar was very light Aaron was not hitting hard at all. Would he be taking down anyway? Maybe or maybe not if he landed hard punches, but its not the point at all. Leo is also a very strong striker. In the end that was not the reason for both of them to train. Leo is a very cool guy and as Aaron said we went to him to train our BJJ. Leo has said many times that my guys are excellent strikers. He is a very opened minded teacher and was interested in the way we used own body structure. Thats what you find in MMA. Guys listen to what works. Thats the way we train our wing chun. This clip was not really as a sparring match as all. It was just training. It was not a fight at all.

Best

Alan

I was just gonna add that, by the way Leo moved his head and hands and by his footwork that he had some striking (probably boxing or MT or both) in his background.

[aaron baum]

hi ernie...your never too old my son!

im sure one day we will end up meeting and training together...i look forward to it whenever it happens...you talk a lot of sense mate...

all the best

aaron

[Wayfaring]

LOL just being honest bro

I know what it takes to train / spar at a decent level and I have grown tired of being on the injured reserved list ;)

looking forward to my golden years :D

I'm just joshing you. No worries.

[chisauking]

Have we really learnt anything from this clip? Like all the other grappler VS kungfu clips?

Question: If someone was determined to take you down, and he's willing to compromise his safety on entry, is it possible to stop this person without being fully committed yourself?

In my experience, the answer is no.

Question 2: Without taking the grapplers route, what could one do to prevent the take-down?

The answer is elementry

[guy b.]

becomming better at standup grappling is the only way to prevent take downs in any sort of reliable way.

[t_niehoff]

Familiar ramblings there Terence! ;) Totally understandable, if everyone was you, but I have to say a word for us 'theoretical types' as I believe that 'theory' is what makes Wing Chun Wing Chun! That is what highlights a 'schooled' student. And ultimately that is what unifies ALL OF US.


Well, don't count me as one of "you". :)

Theory doesn't "make" WCK any more than theory makes boxing or wrestling or BJJ. Can anyone imagine a boxer or wrestler or BJJ fighter or MT fighter saying something like "if you don't use boxing or wrestling or BJJ or MT theory it's not boxing or wrestling or BJJ or MT"? Theory is only what "makes" WCK for theoreticians.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have we really learnt anything from this clip? Like all the other grappler VS kungfu clips?

Question: If someone was determined to take you down, and he's willing to compromise his safety on entry, is it possible to stop this person without being fully committed yourself?

In my experience, the answer is no.

Question 2: Without taking the grapplers route, what could one do to prevent the take-down?

The answer is elementry

Quite, Chuck Lidell for example, knows the answer.


becomming better at standup grappling is the only way to prevent take downs in any sort of reliable way.

That may either be part of the answer or the wrong answer...

[guy b.]

what do you believe to be the right answer?

[LoneTiger108]

Well, don't count me as one of "you". :)

I'll be sure not to get myself confused... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

what do you believe to be the right answer?

I believe that wither you choose to favour stand up grappling or striking, its WHO and HOW you spar and drill against that will decide how effective your chosen mode is.
Stand up grappling can be the worse possible thing to counter a take down because it can play perfectly into a grapplers game, it also can, if trained correctly, shut him down.
The issue is what TYPE of stand up grappling and VS whom its is trained.
If one is a striker and that is what one has done for years, to change the mode from striking to stand up grappling may be worse than just adapting the striking game to what is needed.
yes you will always need to add some type of stand up grappling (clinch work and sprawls) but that is quite different than resorting to stand up grappling.

[guy b.]

I think you are overthinking it. You just train and learn how to do- don't pick and choose what you think will help your wing chun or whatever, that leads to stuff like antigrappling and other theoretical approaches. Guaranteed if you workout regularly with good wrestlers, over time you will get harder to take down and better at taking other people down.

In the fight you can apply what you know to have a better chance of remaining standing and use your striking. Picking certain bits from wrestling (eg the sprawl) and just drilling those doesn't translate to the wrestlers feel and ability to adapt in a stadup clinch situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you are overthinking it. You just train and learn how to do- don't pick and choose what you think will help your wing chun or whatever, that leads to stuff like antigrappling and other theoretical approaches. Guaranteed if you workout regularly with good wrestlers, over time you will get harder to take down and better at taking other people down.

In the fight you can apply what you know to have a better chance of remaining standing and use your striking. Picking certain bits from wrestling (eg the sprawl) and just drilling those doesn't translate to the wrestlers feel and ability to adapt in a stadup clinch situation.

You realize that is the same thing I said.

[muaddib09]

Man I wish some of this cross training mentality would make its way in Houston. When I tell WC instrustors that I train BJJ, they put me off and start telling me that what I am learning has no value. Keep up the PMA= postive mental attitude.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Man I wish some of this cross training mentality would make its way in Houston. When I tell WC instrustors that I train BJJ, they put me off and start telling me that what I am learning has no value. Keep up the PMA= postive mental attitude.

I have always said that, at the very least, you will get exposed to what a possible opponent can do.
The whole "know thy enemy" thing.

[guy b.]

you will always need to add some type of stand up grappling (clinch work and sprawls) but that is quite different than resorting to stand up grappling.

I don't think you said the same thing as me. You are talking here about adding specific aspects of standup grappling. I don't think it works like that. You train it all to be able to use it, don't pick and choose. Like with bjj, you don't think it would be neat to have some armlocks but don't fancy training a top game. You train it all or it doesn't work.

How you apply it is up to you to some extent, but I don't think you can decide beforehand how you want to fight exactly, it just happens naturally with what you have.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think you said the same thing as me. You are talking here about adding specific aspects of standup grappling. I don't think it works like that. You train it all to be able to use it, don't pick and choose. Like with bjj, you don't think it would be neat to have some armlocks but don't fancy training a top game. You train it all or it doesn't work.

How you apply it is up to you to some extent, but I don't think you can decide beforehand how you want to fight exactly, it just happens naturally with what you have.

In the beginning part of the post I did, I just add a "different view" at the end that seems to also work for some.

Its not about "train it all or it doesn't work", its about how you prioritize your training, Mirco and Chuck add grappling to their repatoire and in the beginning they just add a few "counters" to "make due" as they got better at grappling.
The added the principles of grappling without compromising what they already did so well.
Some people don't do that and their "total MA" package suffers for it.

[Simon Hayes]

Gentleman,

My name is Simon Hayes and i am an Instructor at Carlson Gracie London,where the clip was filmed.

I posted the clip of Leo Negao with a Wing Chun fighter sparring.

I did this without the permission of Aaron Baum who i now know was the Wing Chun Fighter.

I would like to apologise profusely to Aaron and his Sifu,Alan Orr for posting the clip.

I am extremely sorry it has caused offence,and Aaron is right - i had no right to post the clip publicly.

I would like to add that neither Aaron or Alan has approached me about this clip,i heard about this thread and was upset about people judging Aaron's skill from a sparring clip,and also that Aaron said here that the clip shouldn't have been posted.

I agree with Aaron wholeheartedly,i should not have posted that clip without his permission.

I have now taken it out of the public domain on You Tube.

I hope that my apology can be accepted,and that Aaron and Alan can forgive me for this error of judgement.

I also have a few comment's to make about the clip,and indeed this thread.

1.The clip was friendly sparring.That is plain to see.Both fighters can be seen pulling their punches-i wouldn't even call those strikes Semi Contact-They are playing.

2.Aaron is clearly pulling his low kicks and push kicks,and not following through with them.

3.Leo Negao is a world class grappler.He is also a very experienced Vale Tudo fighter who has had many no rules challenge matches.He grew up in a tough neighboorhood in Rio and has been fighting all his life.
I can tell you that whether he is fighting sport BJJ (with a gi),Submission Wrestling,
MMA or Vale Tudo,or indeed having a street confrontation, he is what i would consider to be a master of each situation.As has been commented,his stand up is at a high level
and he shouldn't just be classed as a "BJJ Guy".

4.The outcome,as far as i understand,of Aaron and Leo sparring,was that Aaron introduced Leo to Alan Orr's team and they began an exchange of techniques and idea's regarding MMA.

I think anyone who tries to judge Aaron's,or in fact Leo's ability as fighters from that clip need's to understand that light sparring and full power fighting are 2 completely different disciplines.


I know that Leo spent a lot of time with Alan's Team and spoke very highly of their ability.

I would also like to commend any Martial Artists who leave the comfort zone and structure of their own art to explore the unpredictability of MMA and the different skills
needed in this arena.It is my belief that if more martial artist's were as open minded as Alan Orr and his team,many students would see a faster progression as fighters, and also understand better the positives and negatives of their own base art,for as we know every martial art has it's short comings,including BJJ,Thai and Wrestling (the 3 most popular bases for MMA).
It is only when people begin cross training in different arts that (In my personal opinion) they have a whole system for dealing with most situations.


I think many of you Wing Chun instructors and students would be surprised how welcome you would be at BJJ schools and would urge you to go along and try it.
We BJJ guys are very open minded,and 80% of people you will find in a BJJ class are also graded to a high level in another art.BJJ is an art full of people who are already Martial Artist's -In the UK anyway.

I would like to end this post by saying that Alan Orr and his whole team are welcome at Carlson Gracie London at any time with no appointment neccasary.
It is great when other martial artists come and train and Leo Negao has been nothing but complimentary about the Alan Orr team.

Once again,my sincere apologies for posting a 'sparring' clip that has led to people mistakenly judging a talented fighters ability.A fighter (Aaron Baum) that has had the tenacity and courage to test his art and his heart in the cage many times.

Best Wishes to everyone on the forum,

Simon Hayes

Carlson Gracie Team London

www.carlsongracieteam.org.uk

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your whole post was great Simon, but this needs to be repeated because it is one of the great truths of the martial arts:


I would also like to commend any Martial Artists who leave the comfort zone and structure of their own art to explore the unpredictability of MMA and the different skills
needed in this arena.It is my belief that if more martial artist's were as open minded as Alan Orr and his team,many students would see a faster progression as fighters, and also understand better the positives and negatives of their own base art,for as we know every martial art has it's short comings,including BJJ,Thai and Wrestling (the 3 most popular bases for MMA).
It is only when people begin cross training in different arts that (In my personal opinion) they have a whole system for dealing with most situations.

[t_niehoff]

Amen to that.

[Alan Orr]

Gentleman,

My name is Simon Hayes and i am an Instructor at Carlson Gracie London,where the clip was filmed.

I posted the clip of Leo Negao with a Wing Chun fighter sparring.

I did this without the permission of Aaron Baum who i now know was the Wing Chun Fighter.

I would like to apologise profusely to Aaron and his Sifu,Alan Orr for posting the clip.

I am extremely sorry it has caused offence,and Aaron is right - i had no right to post the clip publicly.

I would like to add that neither Aaron or Alan has approached me about this clip,i heard about this thread and was upset about people judging Aaron's skill from a sparring clip,and also that Aaron said here that the clip shouldn't have been posted.

I agree with Aaron wholeheartedly,i should not have posted that clip without his permission.

I have now taken it out of the public domain on You Tube.

I hope that my apology can be accepted,and that Aaron and Alan can forgive me for this error of judgement.

I also have a few comment's to make about the clip,and indeed this thread.

1.The clip was friendly sparring.That is plain to see.Both fighters can be seen pulling their punches-i wouldn't even call those strikes Semi Contact-They are playing.

2.Aaron is clearly pulling his low kicks and push kicks,and not following through with them.

3.Leo Negao is a world class grappler.He is also a very experienced Vale Tudo fighter who has had many no rules challenge matches.He grew up in a tough neighboorhood in Rio and has been fighting all his life.
I can tell you that whether he is fighting sport BJJ (with a gi),Submission Wrestling,
MMA or Vale Tudo,or indeed having a street confrontation, he is what i would consider to be a master of each situation.As has been commented,his stand up is at a high level
and he shouldn't just be classed as a "BJJ Guy".

4.The outcome,as far as i understand,of Aaron and Leo sparring,was that Aaron introduced Leo to Alan Orr's team and they began an exchange of techniques and idea's regarding MMA.

I think anyone who tries to judge Aaron's,or in fact Leo's ability as fighters from that clip need's to understand that light sparring and full power fighting are 2 completely different disciplines.


I know that Leo spent a lot of time with Alan's Team and spoke very highly of their ability.

I would also like to commend any Martial Artists who leave the comfort zone and structure of their own art to explore the unpredictability of MMA and the different skills
needed in this arena.It is my belief that if more martial artist's were as open minded as Alan Orr and his team,many students would see a faster progression as fighters, and also understand better the positives and negatives of their own base art,for as we know every martial art has it's short comings,including BJJ,Thai and Wrestling (the 3 most popular bases for MMA).
It is only when people begin cross training in different arts that (In my personal opinion) they have a whole system for dealing with most situations.


I think many of you Wing Chun instructors and students would be surprised how welcome you would be at BJJ schools and would urge you to go along and try it.
We BJJ guys are very open minded,and 80% of people you will find in a BJJ class are also graded to a high level in another art.BJJ is an art full of people who are already Martial Artist's -In the UK anyway.

I would like to end this post by saying that Alan Orr and his whole team are welcome at Carlson Gracie London at any time with no appointment neccasary.
It is great when other martial artists come and train and Leo Negao has been nothing but complimentary about the Alan Orr team.

Once again,my sincere apologies for posting a 'sparring' clip that has led to people mistakenly judging a talented fighters ability.A fighter (Aaron Baum) that has had the tenacity and courage to test his art and his heart in the cage many times.

Best Wishes to everyone on the forum,

Simon Hayes

Carlson Gracie Team London

www.carlsongracieteam.org.uk


Hi Simon

Thank you very much for taking the time to post.

An excellent post, which sums up the whole thing. I wish more people in the martial arts had the same down to earth views of training and fighting as you show in your post.

No offence caused by posting the clip. It was justed being viewed as something is was not. You have put that right, which I thank you for. No problem at all.

I see us all as brothers in arms and we all try to fight the good fight.

I talked to Leo a few days ago. He's is looking to get back to the UK soon. I am very good friends with Leo and also Rodrigo Cabral at Brasa. I have a great love of BJJ as see it as a very skilled art. That is why I train privates lessons in BJJ each week. I enjoy BJJ as much as Wing Chun. Maybe at this point even more as I a lot more to learn in BJJ.

It would be great to meet up with you and your guys some time.

Thanks again.

My best

Alan

[Wayfaring]

I didn't think the clip was bad at all. On the contrary, it looked like a good intro to a skilled top-notch BJJ grappler who you guys are training with. All good stuff. Don't sweat the over-analysis. This is a WC forum, what do you expect.

[kung fu fighter]

Good post from the wing chun perspective, Navin.

Thanks Vic!

I know you box and grapple in addition to practicing wing chun.
what's your perspective on this subject?

[Phil Redmond]

Maybe I missed a post but when I go there is says private video.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well, Navin, as I said earlier - I liked your first post because of your take on dealing with grapplers from the wing chun perspective.

And for those who missed it or forgot what he said, here it is again:

"Having sparred with Former UFC champ Carlos Newton and other high rank grapplers. I can tell you it's suicide to use linear footwork and retracting punches like Aaron did (it's not wing chun theory, therefore not wing chun). And you can forget about sprawling, it only work momentarily until the grappler reverses it, since this is his world. As a wing chun fighter I recommend sticking to what we know best; jamming, sticking, uprooting his structure, while cutting angles constantly (footwork) in order to keep him mentally off timing, so that he doesn't feel comfortable to shoot. A grappler is no different than any other type of fighter in that he still needs his balance in order to execute his strategy. As a wing chun fighter one needs to change his mentality to an attacking one instead of being defensive, go after him by setting him up. Practice good timing and Hit him hard!!!" (kungfu fighter/Navin)


***WHAT I LIKED the most about your post was the idea of jamming him up, sticking, trying to uproot his structure, constant shifting and cutting angle footwork - as a means of ultimately hitting him hard and often.

But I train some boxing moves (namely stiff leads and rear crosses) along with catch wrestling precisely because I respect the fact that at certain slightly-longer-than-wing chun-ranges...longer reaching horizontal boxing punches can help bridge a gap with aggression to the wing chun world of very close quarter striking...

and also fill a gap wherein the grappler has to think twice about a shoot for fear of taking a hard punch or two as he comes in (like a rear cross - perhaps immediately followed by some straight blast vertical wing chun punching)...

But I also respect the fact that he just might get to shoot after all - so I don't think that just trying to "glue" good sprawl technique onto one's standup game is sufficient...

since once he's managed to firmly clinch or has a solid hold on your legs as part of his shoot - and certainly if it actually goes to the ground - you had better know how to wrestle/grapple if you want to survive and hopefully win the encounter.

I completely agree with Simon Hayes when he wrote this: "It is only when people begin cross training in different arts that (in my personal opinion) they have a whole system for dealing with most situations." (And I certainly agree with his assessment of Aaron, Alan, and the rest of what Alan's team is all about. These guys are to be commended).

But let me go back and get specific about three things here:

1) I agree with your ideas about linear footwork and retracting punches - for I use the leads and crosses mainly as a means of bridging to the wing chun world (although if the opening is there for a stiff lead or a cross to hit a hard target like his head or body I'm definitely going to take it)...but my primary objective is to throw leads and crosses on lines that he needs to use to either strike at or to shoot on me.

So yeah, retracting - especially while simply going straight back - is an invitation to be taken down.

2) Therefore I want to go in and jam him up, stick, angle, uproot, and hit as hard and as often as I can - and do it right in the wing chun wheelhouse of short range standup striking. But always ready to do a level change of my own and use two arms simultaneously to either hit and block (ie.- a garn sao block against a shoot comes to mind here for instance)...possibly sprawl, or w h i z z e r, or elbow strike, any combination of the above...

3) So since we are talking very close quarters (where anything can happen in a heartbeat) - blending wing chun with standup wrestling/grappling principles, strategies, and techniques (or at least training how to transition from one-to-the-other-and-back-again if need be) is an absolute must - as is some Muay Thai close quarter elbow and knee striking moves. It is my belief that when you fight with wing chun you have to be prepared for a clinch mode that could easily entail more than striking/sticking/uprooting/jamming...it could also go to full clinch or to a shoot that does manage to lock one or both legs. It's too close quarters to assume otherwise.

That said, it is still my primary objective to keep it standing at close quarter wing chun mode and to knock him out with some combination of punches, palm strikes, elbows, knee strikes, low kicks, etc. That's Plan "A".

[CFT]

Maybe I missed a post but when I go there is says private video.It got withdrawn by the original poster after it was established that it was a private video and no permission had been given for public posting.

[bennyvt]

hey im glad i got to see it. I thought that as it was a spar with no power used it looked like both were playing.
To expect to play with a good grappler when your only learning is good for your progress but to look at as a bjj Vs VT is not fair.
As far as the run in and jam him senario, that is what they want, I have a friend that does submission wrestling and when I learn we start on the ground but if its standing he waits for me to commit and so do I. Which means we stand there until someone gets bored and launches.
But I was wondering, I have been told several ways of defending a shoot (obviously when ready and not in bad position) and I was wondering which ones you prefer: (these have come from several sources not just my lineage)
1 Pivot and jum sao ( Jum can be substitued for any strike) to the neck
2 Go into a long stance like the pole for support and jum sao
3 adding the sprawl
4 Using footwork to step back and keep the distance with the hands, then attacking when shoot has been stopped.
5 The old hit him and knock him out.

I personally use 4 when I practice with grapplers as my sprawl is not great but that may be practice. I have tryed 1 and although I knocked him out with the jum sao he was really big and fell on me with me ending up on the ground with him on top of me, so if i hadn't knocked him he would have got it. I don't like the pole thing as it means that your front leg is further in front meaning you can tuse the footwork you have if he gets the front leg. I don't mind the sprawl but it means you also end up on the ground especially if its a fake. Number 5, Im five foot and we learn that only idiots think they can knock everyone out with a punch it may work some times but to rely on it is crazy.
If there are other ways please inform me but I thought this was better then the BJJ Vs ving tsun thead:rolleyes:

[Nick Forrer]

Response to Benny

Being able to defend against grappling/being taken down is a matter not really of a particular technique or defence but rather training against decent grapplers...the better grapplers you train with the better your defence will be.

Bjjers typically dont have great takedowns - and the ones that do generally cross train in wrestling...so the best people to train with are freestyle wrestlers. If the country you live in doesnt have a good wrestling pedigree (i.e. doesnt medal in the olympics) then look for some emigres. In the UK this means Iranians and Eastern Europeans.

WRT to mma there is a way/are ways to set up a shot which involves striking high first and then level changing and shotting as the guy raises his hands to cover. This is just an example of the principle of distraction. Just getting a guy to shoot on you isnt necessarily realistic - he has to be able to punch too. That way way you are juggling two balls and not just one. Although of course you may start with one.

WRT to counters, control of distance, angulation and timing will help - what a grappler wants is to get control of you hips...so you have to be able to keep them away from him (a straight up vertical wing chun stance is therefore not ideal to do this)

Once he shoots Manipulating the head can help as well as pummeling for underhooks or ****zering the arm down if his head is inside

Sprawls are not all of a piece...an angulated 'hip cut' sprawl is generally more effective then a square sprawl. Kicking the leg out and peeling grips will also help

The angle step and gum/jum sau defences which are the staple of 'anti grappling' rarely work in practice against soemone decent.

Of course if you get taken down having a good guard with a focus on pushing him away and getting back to yor feet helps

[t_niehoff]

Being able to defend against grappling/being taken down is a matter not really of a particular technique or defence but rather training against decent grapplers...the better grapplers you train with the better your defence will be.


Great comment.

That is IT in a nutshell -- and is also true for stand up and clinch.



WRT to mma there is a way/are ways to set up a shot which involves striking high first and then level changing and shotting as the guy raises his hands to cover. This is just an example of the principle of distraction. Just getting a guy to shoot on you isnt necessarily realistic - he has to be able to punch too. That way way you are juggling two balls and not just one. Although of course you may start with one.

WRT to counters, control of distance, angulation and timing will help - what a grappler wants is to get control of you hips...so you have to be able to keep them away from him (a straight up vertical wing chun stance is therefore not ideal to do this)



What you realize after spending a lot of quality time with some VERY GOOD people is that, yes, they have great mechanics, great technique, but there is so much more that they have that permits them to essentially take you down at will -- they recognize "mistakes" that give them the takedown (like weighitng on your heels, 'erect' posture), know how to move to set you up, they can immediately change on your counter, etc. Not to mention the timing.

The only way to be able to learn to deal with all of that, is to get to know it, to know what the mistakes are (so that you don't make them), how he can move to set you up (so you know what he is doing), etc. He's got a whole game to take you down, and if you want to stop him, you've got to learn to play that game.

[Mike Sheng]

You really have to have a good sense of humor to watch this.LOL

[kung fu fighter]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/images/stories/videos/WCFC-DVD1-Side-Stance.wmv

Navin

[guy b.]

Agree with Nick Forrer. Judo can be good also if you have no wrestling nearby. It has more focus on clinch takedowns though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/images/stories/videos/WCFC-DVD1-Side-Stance.wmv

Navin

Interesting, very nice, thanks.

[t_niehoff]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/images/stories/videos/WCFC-DVD1-Side-Stance.wmv

Navin

Yeah, a square stance is a good defensive position against an outside (noncontact) shoot -- and you can use it to effectively stall, e.g., Rashum v. Knifefighter video -- but the problem is you can't stay in a square stance in a fight: to attack your opponent you will need to step forward with a leg. That is what someone looking to shoot will be waiting for or trying to set up. And there are ways to penetrate even a square stance (if you simply watch MMA fights you'll see them).

Another aspect is that someone trying to take you down will recognize the advantages and disadvantages of the square stance and may not shoot into a square stance but engage first (make contact) then go for your leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, a square stance is a good defensive position against an outside (noncontact) shoot -- and you can use it to effectively stall, e.g., Rashum v. Knifefighter video -- but the problem is you can't stay in a square stance in a fight: to attack your opponent you will need to step forward with a leg. That is what someone looking to shoot will be waiting for or trying to set up. And there are ways to penetrate even a square stance (if you simply watch MMA fights you'll see them).

Another aspect is that someone trying to take you down will recognize the advantages and disadvantages of the square stance and may not shoot into a square stance but engage first (make contact) then go for your leg.

While I agree with this, I just wanted to state that I think this video is step in the right direction of learning how to use WC VS the attempted Take Down.

[t_niehoff]

While I agree with this, I just wanted to state that I think this video is step in the right direction of learning how to use WC VS the attempted Take Down.

And I agree with you -- listening to good fighters who *know* what they are talking about (the MMA fighter/grappler in the video) is a step in the right direction.

[sihing]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/images/stories/videos/WCFC-DVD1-Side-Stance.wmv

Navin

We used this stance steady in the TWC I trained in and taught at the school in Calgary. We regualarly trained shoot defences, as well as everything else. We found the same reasons why it is good, but as well limited too. With the lead leg out there, if gives the guy a target and is easier to grab, keep it back and that target is gone, plus the side stance allows better sideways movement, rather than back and forth straightline stuff.

That vid has been out there awhile now.

James

[t_niehoff]

We used this stance steady in the TWC I trained in and taught at the school in Calgary. We regualarly trained shoot defences, as well as everything else. We found the same reasons why it is good, but as well limited too. With the lead leg out there, if gives the guy a target and is easier to grab, keep it back and that target is gone, plus the side stance allows better sideways movement, rather than back and forth straightline stuff.

That vid has been out there awhile now.

James


Yeah, and the downside to a square stance (on the outside) is that it is purely defensive, and the transition to offense is slower and more telegraphed than a staggered stance.

[Knifefighter]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/images/stories/videos/WCFC-DVD1-Side-Stance.wmv

Navin

Hmmmm.... same old arguments going on here, I see.

As far as that clip, if the guy on the clip was really a champion wrestler, he should know that you don't move forward into your opponent when he is in a square stance (maybe he just didn't want to give away real grappling principles to WC guys :)). You either get him to step forward, get him to put his weight onto you, or you angle to the side until you can isolate one of his legs.

[sihing]

Yeah, and the downside to a square stance (on the outside) is that it is purely defensive, and the transition to offense is slower and more telegraphed than a staggered stance.

Correct, up to a point. It comes down to distance control, I believe, you have to learn to use each Bi Jong (sp?) in the proper distance. Outside range you need the ability to cut off the ring per say, inside you need offense and forward aggression (generalizing here), this is one way to use the square on. I think it is wise to learn and master both ways, square on and side on at a distance because both offer something of value (neither are the be all end all), and train it against those that can test you enough to be able to use it well.

James

[monji112000]

Hmmmm.... same old arguments going on here, I see.

As far as that clip, if the guy on the clip was really a champion wrestler, he should know that you don't move forward into your opponent when he is in a square stance (maybe he just didn't want to give away real grappling principles to WC guys :)). You either get him to step forward, get him to put his weight onto you, or you angle to the side until you can isolate one of his legs.
:) so just standing square isn't going to magically stop a shoot?:confused:

[t_niehoff]

Correct, up to a point. It comes down to distance control, I believe, you have to learn to use each Bi Jong (sp?) in the proper distance.


I don't think it has that much to do with distance control per se.



Outside range you need the ability to cut off the ring per say, inside you need offense and forward aggression (generalizing here), this is one way to use the square on.


No. You can "cut off" your opponent's ciricling/lateral movement on the outside in a staggered stance (too). On the outside you need to penetrate for offense, whether to strike or shoot. To do that, you will need to be in a staggered stance. Starting from a square stance and then moving to penetrate (stepping forward) will be much slower (than if you were in a staggered stance to begin with) and telegraphic (as it is a much larger movement).



I think it is wise to learn and master both ways, square on and side on at a distance because both offer something of value (neither are the be all end all), and train it against those that can test you enough to be able to use it well.

James

I don't care for saying "master" any way since so few of us are masters. ;)

I read in a Hawkins interview (in Wiley's "The Master's Speak", I believe) when asked about whether Yip Man taught him theWCK "footwork" Hawkins said something to the effect of, "No, my (sparring) opponent's taught me the footwork."

[kung fu fighter]

This is what happens when a ving Tsun fighter has no footwork!

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/724020