What is Man Sau

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Since there is another thread seemingly being hijacked by the discussion on Man Sau I figured it would not hurt to start a new thread specifically addressing Man Sau.

So what is Man Sau? Can it be used to strike or is it simply a means of bridging?

FWIW I view Man Sau as an insects antenna or a blind mans cane. It goes forth to encounter and identify the opponents intent and energy. Man Sau asks the opponents intent and reacts accordingly.

Man Sau, IMHO, can certainly become a strike if there is nothing to prevent it from doing so. It can become a Fak Sau or a Yin Palm strike quite easily and without changing structure or energy all that much.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts? What is Man Sau?

[Ali. R]

Hello,

Since there is another thread seemingly being hijacked by the discussion on Man Sau I figured it would not hurt to start a new thread specifically addressing Man Sau.



I really enjoyed your participation on that thread also dealing with the “Mon Sao”; I’ll just sit back and wait on this one…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I really enjoyed your participation on that thread also dealing with the “Mon Sao”; I’ll just sit back and wait on this one…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.



I'm in agreement here about waiting. With all due respect I think the other thread about 'attacking' is much better. I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

[Sihing73]

I'm in agreement here about waiting. With all due respect I think the other thread about 'attacking' is much better. I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

Hello,

Perhaps so, then answering the question should be quite easy ;)

My reason for posting this thread was to avoid hijacking the other thread. Also, I noticed that there was some difference of opinion as to whaether a Man Sau could or could not be used for attack.

Since this is such an easy thing I again ask to simply answer the question; what is Man Sau and can it be used for attack. If so how if not why not?

Looking forward to the responses. if there are any :D

[AndrewS]

Man sao asks a question.

It's an action not a shape.

Wu sao protects.

See above.

Hit 'em and keep your rear hand up and live.

Andrew

[monji112000]

Man sao asks a question.

It's an action not a shape.

Wu sao protects.

See above.

Hit 'em and keep your rear hand up and live.

Andrew

what if they hit low? Do you move your guarding hand or keep it stationary.

[Sihing73]

Hello AndrewS,

So how does Man Sau ask the question? What is the concept and if it has no shape then how is it formed? What is the "action" it is used for obstruction or for bridging and how and why does it change and to what does it change, if it does? Is Man Sau simply sticking the arm in the path and making the opponent go around or through?

monji112000,

IMHO the Man Sau is used for the upper gates and is an asking hand\obstruction. IMO a Man Sau is not used specifically to answer an attack, although the intial obstruction could identify the attack, but an answer to an attack would be more akin to Pak, Taun, Bong or in the case of a low lever punch perhaps Gaun Sau. The shape of Man can change as the energy is met. However, I feel that as you drop the arm it will already be changing into something else and no longer be a Man Sau, if that is what it started out as.

Again, just my opinion but a Man Sau is used to obstruct and take up space. It is used to probe and identify the opponents intent, not as a strike per se. Although, a Man Sau can become an attack if it meets an obstacle and determines there is an opening for an attack, thus transitioning to something else.

FWIW I may be completely off base on this :o

[AndrewS]

what if they hit low? Do you move your guarding hand or keep it stationary.

Well, if the attack (man) doesn't stop the low hit (attack is defense), then the guarding hand better guard, no?

What do we focus on in the arm in WC?

The elbow- that should probably be doing some guarding, eh, otherwise it wouldn't be a guarding hand.

Less obliquely- wu sao guards, if it doesn't guard, it isn't wu sao.


So how does Man Sau ask the question? What is the concept and if it has no shape then how is it formed? What is the "action" it is used for obstruction or for bridging and how and why does it change and to what does it change, if it does? Is Man Sau simply sticking the arm in the path and making the opponent go around or through?

How does it ask the question- just like Rene mentioned elsewhere- the question is what to do with my nice stiff jab in your face (see Dempsey, Jack), if you have no answer, the rear hand comes, rinse and repeat (hence, chain punches). As most people do something when you try to hit them, and you don't always ko on the first shot, usually this starts a conversation (and hence chain punches turn into chained motion, linking covered attacks and aggressive defenses that improve position).

You can just leave a man out there hanging, yeah, but I think that's a pretty easy question to answer, and if the way is free and the range is right, it's just wrong for you to leave that thing hanging when it should be hitting.

Andrew

[Sihing73]

Hello Andrew,

So is the Man really just a strike that asks and is answered?

[Liddel]

I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

Well there is an obvious difference in opinoin.

Ali mentioned if you make Mun stiff in terms of using it as an attack it cannot redirect etc....

There are several books out there that show GM Ip using Mun Sao on the Jong as an attack. (as stated in the text within the book)

Im not passing judgement on anyones 'view' of Mun Sao, just pointing out that yes there are different ideas about what it is and what its used for......

DREW

[AndrewS]

Dave,

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.

Andrew

[monji112000]

Dave,

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.

Andrew

This is the method I have used the man sao in sparring. honesty the way it was explained to me is its a "idea". If you have a free space, and you want to "check" or prob, you can use a "opening" hand movement. Maybe you would like his hands to go up or something else.. I have always thought about how boxers use a jab to check, setup ect.. My teacher was very adamant that its an idea, a strategy, that could be applied to many movements.

[Liddel]

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.
Andrew



My teacher was very adamant that its a idea, a strategy, that could be applied to many movements

Thats you guys using the Kung Fu, not the Kung Fu using you.

Nice
:cool:

[Ali. R]

WTF, :confused::confused::confused:

“Mon Sao” is a form of “leaking attack” WHICH ARE TONS OF THEM (attacking bad structure), which attacks the bad structure of your opponent on entry, from the point of the defensive triangle (small triangle) or offensive (large triangle)to the mother-line of your opponent’s centre of gravity…

The main function of the “Mon Sao” is to destroy structure and make a self-passageway on entry; trapping, pinning and to manipulate your opponent’s fighting lines… the “Mon Sao” only uses defensives hand structure when in use, and it wares many hats when attacking…

It will be hard for the “Mon Sao” to be called a punch/strike because it has to complete many function when, and if it’s used correctly on entry… There are many names for many things, but let’s face it gentlemen when the hands changes so does the weapon… The “Mon Sao is way to busy doing the things it be should doing before striking…

Therefore taking over the fighting lines with the “Mon Sao” and not to just line it up to someone (asking hand) LOL, and when no one answers attack with a punch LOL… When you do that (punch) it becomes just that, a punch… NOT a “Mon Sao”… And if one makes connection to your opponent’s bridge with that strike, then it’s something else once again…

And that’s just the attacking aspect, in other words only half of the equation...

I think I’ll stop here for a while, I’m talking to much…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

“Mon Sao” is not just holding your arm up and posing, when one has problems understanding it or using it, their wing chun attacks will be less then resolve…

This is the very basic way on how to use the “Mon Sao”, most didn’t like it here in the U.S. but this article is doing well in many different Countries in Europe, it’s actually hosted in many different website there…

http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

Asking Hand?

This is a signature posture, nothing else imho.

Wong Fei Hung had a symbolic asking hand posture where he splayed his arms wide one front one back, one high one low and both in a tansau (or outlayed palms). I even think Bruce Lee had his own asking hand.

There is no contact involved initially. It's a pre-set fighting posture that is already in place before anything else happens. Once contact is made, technical terms are in use depending on the situation and arm positioning, which means the question has been answered.

Mun Sau is only asking the question. It isn't the concluding answer by any means...

All that math made my eyes go blurry Ali!! What did this have to do with the thread?? :confused:

[Ali. R]

To bad you didn’t read it through, then you have seen… That’s ok, cause it’s typical for most to read two chapters of a story from a book, and then come out with there own ending…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Asking Hand?

All that math made my eyes go blurry Ali!! What did this have to do with the thread?? :confused:


Its just a diagram of the science behind minimizing distance and maximzing followthrough, especially since the Man-Sao is supported by the structure of that defensive(small) triangle. When you try to punch with a Man-Sao it follows through to the large triangle...at that point its not Man anymore beause there is no support of structure other than a follwthrough on a strike...whatever strike it may be.

In the Woo Fai Ching System, 'asking' with a strike( IF you even want to call it that) is called Keun Sue Keun(Fist parries Fist) not Man-Sao.

[Ali. R]

Math doesn’t lie, unless one has the problem wrong…


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

“Mon Sao” is not just holding your arm up and posing, when one has problems understanding it or using it, their wing chun attacks will be less then resolve…

This is the very basic way on how to use the “Mon Sao”, most didn’t like it here in the U.S. but this article is doing well in many different Countries in Europe, it’s actually hosted in many different website there…

http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

Honestly I must be really stupid becouse I'm always lost when you start talking about that steiner stuff. Should have gone to college... ;)

[Ali. R]

Honestly I must be really stupid becouse I'm always lost when you start talking about that steiner stuff. Should have gone to college... ;)


That’s ok, just look at the pretty picture… ;)


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Honestly I must be really stupid becouse I'm always lost when you start talking about that steiner stuff. Should have gone to college... ;)




Dont be so hard on yourself. You will get it. Besides, this is the Woo Fai Ching System. If what your line does works for you...keep doing it.

[LoneTiger108]

Math doesn’t lie, unless one has the problem wrong...

I must've missed something, but I only spotted one reference to 'mon sao' relating to dia.13a, red dot 2. Then you go on to 'name' a few examples.

Although I agree that there can be strategies played using asking hand for a set-up, and that there is an ultimate 'power structure' to your asking hand if placed in a certain way, this to me still goes outside the explanation required for something far simpler imo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love you WC guys !

[tjwingchun]

Math doesn’t lie, unless one has the problem wrong…


Ali Rahim.

Mathematics is used to lie, ask any statistician.:D

[Graychuan]

I must've missed something, but I only spotted one reference to 'mon sao' relating to dia.13a, red dot 2. Then you go on to 'name' a few examples.

Although I agree that there can be strategies played using asking hand for a set-up, and that there is an ultimate 'power structure' to your asking hand if placed in a certain way, this to me still goes outside the explanation required for something far simpler imo.


Sound structure supports ALL of Wing Chun. The defensive structure supports, Man, Tan, Bong, Fook, Pak... any of the defensive movements. But since this thread is about Man-Sao and what it actually is, the diagram is here to define what we do in the Woo Fai Ching System. And since we do not define Man-Sao as a strike, the diagram shows how it is supported with a defensive structure, as with any of the asking, bridging or defensive movements.
Context helps with the explainations.

[Ali. R]

Mathematics is used to lie, ask any statistician.:D


Then by admission or choice their equation is wrong. :D


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Mathematics is used to lie, ask any statistician.:D


But this is another subject for another thread for another forum.

[LoneTiger108]

But since this thread is about Man-Sao and what it actually is, the diagram is here to define what we do in the Woo Fai Ching System.

Exactly my point! What mun sau actually IS is nothing to do with the Woo Fai Ching System. That's how YOU view it.

I read two characters and used past Martial Artists to highlight what an 'asking hand' is, what it may or can look like, not what it's purpose or mathematical equation is.

Silly me for being simple minded :o

[tjwingchun]

My view of Man Sau.

On its way out it is extended initially as a covering strike, while "asking" for contact with your opponents arms, if it gets no contact then it manitains its purpose and lands as a strike, if a contact is made with a blocking arm it changes to a controlling technique and the other hand is initiated as a Man Sau, with the same intent to strike while being flexible to cover defensively your oppponents other arm.

[LoneTiger108]

Graychuan: Wing Chun Kung Fu practitoner since June of 2006.

I'd seriously consider listening more, and not to get so defensive on your teachers behalf. No harm is intended by me (although I can't speak for others!:D)

Language is such a simple thing really. We just need to listen more to eachother.


My view of Man Sau.

On its way out it is extended initially as a covering strike, while "asking" for contact with your opponents arms, if it gets no contact then it manitains its purpose and lands as a strike, if a contact is made with a blocking arm it changes to a controlling technique and the other hand is initiated as a Man Sau, with the same intent to strike while being flexible to cover defensively your oppponents other arm.

Pretty understandable and more like a shared ideal of what I was saying. Thanks TJ!


There is no contact involved initially. It's a pre-set fighting posture that is already in place before anything else happens. Once contact is made, technical terms are in use depending on the situation and arm positioning, which means the question has been answered.

[Ali. R]

Ok that’s fine and it’s all good, let’s just don’t worry about the math because a lot of us hate to think anyway… It’s close to say that almost everyone here use it as a strike or for posturing (the “Mon Sao”)…

Wing Chun shouldn’t have any posturing with the “Mon Sao” for that is a dead give away of intent (only when drilling your ideals on attack)…

How to make this work is to let or help your opponent or partner understand the defensive reaction of your approach, when he or she is conformable with the ideal of your approach (defensively), then you learn to beat them with good timing and line control…

Hence the “Mon Sao” attacks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

That’s ok, just look at the pretty picture… ;)


Ali Rahim.

I did and I watched your clips about all that. Still makes no sense to me. Sorry like I said, maybe I'm slow. ;)

[Graychuan]

Exactly my point! What mun sau actually IS is nothing to do with the Woo Fai Ching System. That's how YOU view it.

I read two characters and used past Martial Artists to highlight what an 'asking hand' is, what it may or can look like, not what it's purpose or mathematical equation is.
Silly me for being simple minded :o


As for the first bold type... I have made no secret of this. Since I am a desciple of the Woo System all I know about Man-Sao will be from the Woo System. I thought this thread was about 'what is a Man-Sao and can it be used for attack?'. Ali and I even got a follow up post form Sihing73 to clarify the info for which he was looking. If its ok for you to say its used one way then its okay for someone else to disagree. I also distinctly posted that if what you do works then keep doing it.

As for the second bold type...well, take it or leave it. The guys in Europe have found it useful.

I think the main thing is in the WOO FAI CHING system, we do not talk of Man as a strike and in other systems I guess they do. This is fine.

[Ali. R]

I did and I watched your clips about all that. Still makes no sense to me. Sorry like I said, maybe I'm slow. ;)


Man it’s nothing wrong with being slow; just continue to take your time… ;)


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

Hence the “Mon Sao” attacks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I

Ali Rahim.

Ali, I see you chamber yourself in 'Mon Sao' seven times prior to executing seven sansau of identical techniques (against a stationary 'dead' Mon Sao)

The 'attacks' you demonstrate are no longer Mon Sau once they become attacks imho. You also seem to use a 'fook/wu Mon Sao' held quite relaxed and low, a signature of Cheung and Fung Sifu. Good stuff, if you read it correctly.

I'm just concerned that you may be misinterpreting the lingo that's all...

[tjwingchun]

Pretty understandable and more like a shared ideal of what I was saying. Thanks TJ!

You are welcome LoneTiger.

I have always held the belief that Wing Chun is simply science, which is a statement of how things work, it must stay simple otherwise it can become so complex that it leaves the beginner with the impression that it is unobtainable and puts them off staying on the path.

The one thing I alway refer back to that in my mind defines Wing Chun is what I call "LESSON ONE" and that is the punch to the face, it is taught from the opening of all the forms and maintains its importance throughout the time practicing Wing Chun.

When in a conflict situation and it has changed to a physical confrontation scenario rather than the psychological stage that normally precedes a fight, remember to "ASK" your opponent if he knows how to stop a punch, that is when a punch can be considered a Man Sau, if they don´t have the answer to that simplest of questions carry on asking it until they are no longer a threat.

It is only if your attacker has the knowledge and ability to prevent the strike that is when your other Wing Chun skills become required.

[Graychuan]

Graychuan: Wing Chun Kung Fu practitoner since June of 2006.

I'd seriously consider listening more, and not to get so defensive on your teachers thread. No harm is intended by me (although I can't speak for others!:D)



Quote me from anywhere on this thread where I was defensive. I am no threat to this thread. Im sorry If you are reading more into this text that what is actually on the screen.
Also, my knowledge of WC is sound. And I fully intend to participate in this thread and these forums as I choose.

Thank you very much.

[LoneTiger108]

...remember to "ASK" your opponent if he knows how to stop a punch, that is when a punch can be considered a Man Sau, if they don´t have the answer to that simplest of questions carry on asking it until they are no longer a threat.

Now even you are sounding like my own Sifu! Must be the decades of experience, and learning from Kwok Sifu as his personality is quite similar :eek:

I understand that it is used to set-up the attack and also remember Man Sifu saying something like 'if you get hit (accidently) by my asking hand, well, you have never trained how to fight!' (or something like that ;))

Guess it's now time to leave the thread for another day before it spirals into a debate over simple terms. Take care everyone..

[Ali. R]

Ali, I see you chamber yourself in 'Mon Sao' seven times prior to executing seven sansau of identical techniques (against a stationary 'dead' Mon Sao)

The 'attacks' you demonstrate are no longer Mon Sau once they become attacks imho. You also seem to use a 'fook/wu Mon Sao' held quite relaxed and low, a signature of Cheung and Fung Sifu. Good stuff, if you read it correctly.

I'm just concerned that you may be misinterpreting the lingo that's all...


I said nothing about a fight only how to prepare oneself to began to learn this concept… Why is that when one uses a clip to explain their point of view, the ideal of just showing is less then tolerated to others? It’s just a conversation?

There were three different attacks (and could be hundreds of attacks when understood), and the “Mon Sao” in which you said should be used only as posturing and nothing more (you know, the forward arm…) is puling the entire stops with the attack, trapping, pinning, pulling and jerking ect…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I


Ali Rahim

[LoneTiger108]

There were three different attacks, and the “Mon Sao” in which you said should de used as posturing and nothing more (you know, the forward arm…) is puling the entire stops with the attack, trapping, pinning, pulling and jerking ect...

My final point (coz this thread moves so fast!) is that you have just highlighted what I'm trying to say ISN'T munsau?!! :confused:

Trapping, pinning, pulling and jerking are all technical terms for the purpose/result of hand plays, thus a simple munsau has now become 'something else' or inherited another use.

I'll have to agree to disagree.


Also, my knowledge of WC is sound. And I fully intend to participate in this thread and these forums as I choose.

Feel free! That's what a forum is for. Discussions. Maybe we'll cross posts somewhere else in the future, where we can actually agree on something ;)

[Ali. R]

My final point (coz this thread moves so fast!) is that you have just highlighted what I'm trying to say ISN'T munsau?!! :confused:



Man that’s funny is h*ll… No it’s sansau, no it’s posturing, LOL, LOL,
and only with one attack... :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

Man that’s funny is h*ll… No it’s sansau, no it’s posturing, LOL, LOL, and only with one attack... :D

The ammount of sansau you attack with makes no difference, because their sansau not munsau imo. When have I said that sansau is munsau?? Although I did say it's a simple posture and stand by that all the way Ali.

Guess you didn't read this bit...


Trapping, pinning, pulling and jerking are all technical terms for the purpose/result of hand plays, thus a simple munsau has now become 'something else' or inherited another use.

or this...


There is no contact involved initially. It's a pre-set fighting posture that is already in place before anything else happens. Once contact is made, technical terms are in use depending on the situation and arm positioning, which means the question has been answered.

[Ali. R]

You maybe right dude, I’ll just posture with the “Mon Sao”, and maybe I’ll get better with it someday through posturing, thanks for the help…

Honestly I did stop reading it, sorry about that…


Ali Rahim.

[AndrewS]

Ali,

by my way of looking at things, your partner is showing man sao- a question, which, in the last clip, you answer with in pak, out pak, shan sao.

Andrew

[Liddel]

Ok that’s fine and it’s all good, let’s just don’t worry about the math because a lot of us hate to think anyway…
Ali Rahim.

"You can overthink anything into a failure"
Steven Spielburg

[Ali. R]

Ali,

by my way of looking at things, your partner is showing man sao- a question, which, in the last clip, you answer with in pak, out pak, shan sao.

Andrew


LOL, LOL...

A “Pak Sao” or anything else was not done anywhere in that scenario… it’s very obvious you guys don’t have a clue on whats going on dealing with that clip…

“Tai di jeong”, (spade palm)

“Kow Sao”, “receive inward”

Inverted “jut” outside jerking hand…


"You can overthink anything into a failure"
Steven Spielburg

And he who doesn’t think when training or learning in preparation for anything, has already failed… I don’t have to think about anything that I do in action, it just comes out from training and understanding… I’ll attack when I feel like it ,with no hesitation…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I


Ali Rahim.

[AndrewS]

Ali,

Shan sao means spade palm in my line.

The last two actions on the clip you posted show you clearing the lead hand with a matched lead hand motion to your far shoulder, followed by clearing the back hand with your lead hand and a rear hand palm. Inpak, outpak, palm. Jut jerks and I see no jut energy, action, or response from your partner that he's being jerked in those two clips.

As to whether or not I know what I'm talking about, you seem to be quick to judge and put up a front of great knowledge without displaying much depth. I trust I'm correct in noting that your presence on this board is largely a marketing campaign and public display to your students? Or is this just an ego thing? People like Rolf C and Dave Peterson post here regularly, as well as Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, John Crescione and a number of other figures of some prominence in the art of Wing Chun, yet you choose to speak from a position of mastery and received knowledege, rather than engage in discussion. This indicates you have some ulterior motive.

Andrew


P.S. At the end of the day, hands talk. If you want to have a conversation and you're in LA, I can easily find a number of gyms to have a conversation in, with gear or with out, with blunt weapons, or without. If you'ld care to apologize for your rudeness and talk with a peer we can let this lie.

[Ali. R]

There was no pak anywhere in those attacks!!!

That is not called for, you are reading way to much into this thread, nobodies being rude but you, and as far as your challenge (which is totally uncalled for), if you feel that you must throw yourself to the lions over a conversation, then so be it…

That was not a back fist it is called a diagonal punch that I used at the end of some of those attack... In the system that I train in we don’t have a back fist in it. I’m not going to let you tell me what I’m doing, and I'm not about to walk you through by pointing out the marks on the clip, but with no offence, again have no clue on what I’m doing on that clip…

You guys are so busy telling me that I’m wrong about this or that, I’m just defending my position that’s all, and if it gets to hot then leave the kitchen, fu*k a fight… You are the only one offended, and not the other names that you decided to call out for some reason or another, LOL,, LOL…

Sure, when I start attacking with the “Mon Sao” I use all kinds of stuff, that’s what the “Mon Sao” does, but only while using defensives hand structures… Once the hand changes into an offensive hand structure when attacking then it’s not a “Mon Sao" attack anymore, as far as I was taught…

And I have no reason to apologize for anything epically after your challenge…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

nobodies being rude but you

As errrm, *clears throat* an impartial observer, i think your wrong about that.....


LOL, LOL...
it’s very obvious you guys don’t have a clue on whats going on dealing with that clip…
Ali Rahim.

LOL
DREW

[Liddel]

And he who doesn’t think when training or learning in preparation for anything, has already failed… I don’t have to think about anything that I do in action, it just comes out from training and understanding… I’ll attack when I feel like it ,with no hesitation…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y329TeQ3I

Ali Rahim.

Talk it up....

Heres yet another example of you thinking your awesome when your doing simple actions against a student in a fixed demo.

Which IMO is very poor, he has ample oportunity to turn his pressed left hand over into bong to retrieve his space and launch a punch.....perhaps your to good huh, but turning actions to Bong's fairly basic stuff...he doesnt turn step nothing....

is this indicative of how you think a novice would react in a real fight ?

I personally dont see anything resembling my "Mun Sao", we obviously have different actions with the same name....

Further more, you dont even use the idea of Mun here... an asking hand.

You could have thrown a punch at his head and he'd have to block or it would land, that would be asking for bridge contact. Using the idea rather than the tech that Andrew, I and others have mentioned.....as an alternate way of thinking, NOT THE ONLY WAY

Instead you parry first with whatever hand you want to call it, which is basic chasing hands, a no no in my book.

What a funny thread after Your Boy said..."well we all know what Mun Sao is" LOL

Where does your Mun sao come from, which form and what section in your system Ali ?

DREW

[Ali. R]

Face it, you guys don’t attack with the “Mon Sao”, and in the system I study in we do, most of you guys just posture or strike with it some how… It’s no big deal, and it’s cool and the gang, you do what you do, I do what I do, I’m not claming anything you’re doing all that for me…

If you think I’m awesome, then that’s on you… I just posted a clip to help explain my point and nothing more… I could care less on what someone thinks, I’m just posting on a thread dealing with a subject that I know something about and that’s all… but thanks anyway… I never said its one way to do anything; I said do what works for you… :p


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

I feel a little responsible for this thread turning, yet again, into a pi$$ing match. :o

It's interesting to see others attempt to discuss the munsau idea with Ali, only to be disregarded totally without any real exchange. No need for the 'so-called' challenges here lads. Just ridiculous! :eek:

Asking hand may be a totally different concept to you Ali, but I notice that your training does cover other 'ways' and I'm trying to highlight what munsau is to a Wing Chun player. Most of us all have a set-look in this position, and if i was to say that my munsau almost always is a tansau I'd hope some would get what I'm saying.

You've obviously looked into Wing Chun, but study? Under who? I notice that you're a well-rounded Martial Artist, so can only presume that you've 'added' the WC to an existing system. Am I right?

I also think this quote from Liddel is pure gold, and if you can not answer the question I'd seriously consider listening more to your brothers...


Where does your Mun sao come from, which form and what section in your system Ali ?

[Ali. R]

You've obviously looked into Wing Chun, but study? Under who? I notice that you're a well-rounded Martial Artist, so can only presume that you've 'added' the WC to an existing system. Am I right?

No mix at all just wing chun… I’m a 3rd generation ‘Yip Man’ student under ‘Woo Fai Ching’ who study with Yip Man for 2-3 years then with ‘Leung Sheung’ for 8 years, and I’ve study with ‘Woo’ personally for close to 24 years…

I’m a certified sifu (for whatever that means) in the yang tai chi chuan and shoalin five animals fighting system under ‘Woo Fai Ching’ and ex pro boxer… But when I get down it’s all wing chun, maybe some boxing but in the most part, I only need wing chun…
And in three months, I’ll have been training wing chun for 30 years…

Your posting is great, and I was all-wrong about you, you are a very humble person, if I offended you in anyway please forgive me, I truly mean this from the bottom…

I really shoot from the hip a lot and can say some offbeat things because if you look at my posting from the past months I’ve been here, you can see that my persons was always under attack quite often with off subject crap…

It’s a beautiful thing when one can see beyond the clouds of ones demeanor or disposition…

Thank you for being just a person…

This is our story: http://www.detroitwingchun.com/Bio.htm


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

If one can truly relate to the “Mon Sao”, then ones confusion when attacking will be brought to a minimum, rather then using it as a bi-jong (ready position)…

If the desire of attacking and knowledge is not there, then the “Mon Sao” will be very much a secondary reaction in most cases, or in the form of waiting, which brings you right back to this: bi-jong (ready position)…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I also think this quote from Liddel is pure gold, and if you can not answer the question I'd seriously consider listening more to your brothers...


Where does your Mun sao come from, which form and what section in your system Ali ?


Just reverse the thought pattern.


From the beginning of the wooden man form, to about every part that uses a single multiple hand movement, you can take your pick, single multiple hand techniques, such as jut, biu and garm together or when doing many other multiple single hand movements on the jong with the “Mon Sao”...

With the mentally of attack, it becomes yut fook yee with forward stepping, but only you're attacking rather then standing in one place waiting for an answer, LOL...

If you are not attacking then what are you asking? That's like saying hello-using telepathy…

You may feel like they are all just defensive movements when they're all put together, but when one adds the aspect of offense to such an ideal when using the “Mon Sao”, it becomes more of an attack on entry, other then just defensive posturing, or blocking...

But when one just bangs on the wooden man, one will never see it...


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Just reverse the thought pattern.


From the beginning of the wooden man form, to about every part that uses a single multiple hand movement, you can take your pick, single multiple hand techniques, such as jut, biu and garm together or when doing many other multiple single hand movements on the jong with the “Mon Sao”...

With the mentally of attack, it becomes yut fook yee with forward stepping, but only you're attacking rather then standing in one place waiting for an answer, LOL...

If you are not attacking then what are you asking? That's like saying hello-using telepathy…

You may feel like they are all just defensive movements when they're all put together, but when one adds the aspect of offense to such an ideal when using the “Mon Sao”, it becomes more of an attack on entry, other then just defensive posturing, or blocking...

But when one just bangs on the wooden man, one will never see it...


Ali Rahim.


I know it needs a little work, Sifu Ali, but are you talking about something like this..maybe? :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEp0tSFTD1Q

[Ali. R]

I know it needs a little work, Sifu Ali, but are you talking about something like this..maybe? :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEp0tSFTD1Q


That’s great Chris; I see you made the clip during sparring nights.

I saw your earlier post, Chris don’t worry about who says what, if it was not for that kind of treatment that we take from others, we wouldn’t be the kind people that we are and that’s the way it will always be…

When under attack we must apologize “not”, but never get angry, then you will give up your train of thought when getting angry.

I know it hurts Chris and I know how you feel... I was in jail just last night for driving a $60.000 Mercedes AMG, because when someone less then a mile away was car jacked and had the same car… The plates didn't match and all of my paper work was good… but that didn’t stop them for holding and chaining me to a chair for seven hr.

And I choose no to take action like one of the cops ask me to… Man I'm use to getting a butt kicking from the police at least every other week growing up in the city of Detroit, and most of the time I deserve it , man that’s just life…

Remember, you must take on ten times of amount of knowledge then most people, this way all of the maliciousness will be nullified, then your knowledge will not be just knowledge… It will become a knowledge of a higher level and understanding…

I love baby brother and just keep making me happy.


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

[Buddha_Fist]

That’s great Chris; I see you made the clip during sparring nights.

Is THAT your sparring? Do you actually have a clip where the student doesn't just freeze like a statue after the first punch?


I saw your earlier post, Chris don’t worry about who says what, if it was not for that kind of treatment that we take from others we wouldn’t be the kind people that we are, and that’s the way it will always be…

When under attack we must apologize “not”, but never get angry then you will give up your train of thought get angry.

I know it hurts Chris and I know how you feel I was in jail for driving a $60.000 Mercedes AMG, because when someone less then a mile away was car jacked had the same car… The plates did match and all of my paper work was good… but that didn’t stop them for holding and chain me to a chair for seven hr.

And choose no to take ****her action like one of the cops ask me to… Man I use getting a but kicking from the police at least every other Detroit week growing up in the city of Detroit, and most of the time I deserve it , man that’s just live…

Remember, you must take on ten times the knowledge then most people, this way all from the maliciousness nullified, and this way your knowledge will not be just knowledge… It will become knowledge of a higher level…

I love baby brother and just keep making me happy.


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

:confused:

Can't you just PM each other to declare your brotherly love? Let's keep the forum to Wing Chun discussions.

[Ali. R]

Thank you for making my case, and I will try to reframe from using the word love in respect for you… No, that is not sparring the clip that he put up follows the thread... d*mned if you do, and d*mn if you don't. that's my life story.


Is THAT your sparring? Do you actually have a clip where the student doesn't just freeze like a statue after the first punch?

Yes we do, and I’m sorry that it’s not for you… You will only tear it down, just as you have done with the word love…

Brotherly love should never be kept secret, unless something is at a missed and when brothers feel as if they need to hide or if there’s a hidden agenda.


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ernie]

Wow! Attacks to us right on his first post in this thread. Its all good.

Anyway, with proper bridgewalking and attacking the attack the 2nd hand is usually shut down on the way in. You see it better in the Chi Sao parts. Just sit tight, pal, I know your starving for it but we cant give it to you all at once. ;) Maybe YOU could show us how its done?

you can see him on the videos on my site http://wslglvt.com/ :cool:

[kung fu fighter]

Can footwork be used also as a kind of man sao concept?

[Ali. R]

Can footwork be used also as a kind of man sao concept?

Your answer may get deleted, follow these concepts and let the feet follow the hands after contact… it the top triangle is not sound and understood then the feet will automatically follow the hands… It would be wise to develop small motions with the hands first so the feet can follow suite…

Maybe the way I post your answer last time it all got deleted… Listen what the hand will do the feet will do also... Your stepping must follow your opponent’s breath to trap with the legs when stepping...

This is the info that could help you... The feet can follow these concepts also because they will be all connected as one when fighting…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpVxPYpXaFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnoxN7eC9AI

http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

In answer to Liddels question "Where does your Mun sao come from, which form and what section in your system Ali ?" you say:


Just reverse the thought pattern.

From the beginning of the wooden man form, to about every part that uses a single multiple hand movement, you can take your pick, single multiple hand techniques, such as jut, biu and garm together or when doing many other multiple single hand movements on the jong with the “Mon Sao”...

I can see what you're trying to say I think, but this does not answer the question. I know a munsau 'shape' can be anything, that was actually one of my original points.

But where 'exactly' does this concept come from in our WC Forms?

I don't think I would wait to learn the Wooden Man methods to highlight one of the most basic concepts in Wing Chun, but that's just me I suppose...

[Ali. R]

In answer to Liddels question "Where does your Mun sao come from, which form and what section in your system Ali ?" you say:



I can see what you're trying to say I think, but this does not answer the question. I know a munsau 'shape' can be anything, that was actually one of my original points.

But where 'exactly' does this concept come from in our WC Forms?

I don't think I would wait to learn the Wooden Man methods to highlight one of the most basic concepts in Wing Chun, but that's just me I suppose...


Everything in the system (movements) shouldn’t be taken so literally, all of the answers may be there within the forms, BUT… I’ve have pondered and trained the concepts within the Kuen Kuet in every form and in everyway that my sifu could come up with…

Because I was told and taught that the Kuen Kuet is what brings your wing chun to life, not what you can do physically, but what one can do metaphysically through the Kuen Kuet…

This Kuen Kuet "viciousness" is just one of them that I mention within the “mon sao” attack… The wooden man is what I was taught to really hone in on this concept… Because the jong develops a strong sense of body unity upper and lower triangle and at bridge contact…

It’s in a section within the “jong” form that has this combination movement in it “jut, biu and garm”, if you know the “jong” form you would know where to find those combination single hand movements…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Everything in the system (movements) shouldn’t be taken so literally, all of the answers may be there within the forms.

This is funny, cause you are preaching to the converted Ali.

It was myself, Andrew and LoneTiger just to name a few that advocated using Mun as an attack or to ask a question using Mun in that manner.

We began the whole discussion on 'Mun Sao' in the other thread (prior to this one being started to not hijack the other) stating we see it as not just a literal tech but one with a theory that could carry over to other "behaviours".

Andrew said he can see it as being like a Jab etc etc.....

Now we get you trying to convey to us what we already believe.
So we are on the same page it seems but as far as the discussion...you've only just arrived :rolleyes:.

I mean you began to knock the idea of attacking with Mun saying something like....
"making Mun Stiff like a jab causes you to be un able to redirect force and maintain good structure....." (not verbatim, but thereabouts) and now your telling us not to be so litteral, WTF ??? LOL

So to me (at least) your conversation is going in circles......

You talk to us like were begginers, but i only asked "where does your Mun come from in your VT" because of curiousity, not ignorance :cool:

DREW

Post 18 - Thread - Attacking a ing Chun concept


"But it is true that one can turn a block into a strike but I wouldn’t recommend using it that way, far as the “Mon Sao”… The Mon Sao is the probe that helps dictates and foresees your automatic reaction dealing with incoming force just as, the “Don Chi Sao”…

[Ali. R]

Why do we have to fight each other?

There is no contradiction in anything that I have said, and I have never knocked anything dealing with your approach on this subject, it was the other way around…

If you knew way back in post 18 from another thread before this one, and three post prior to the one just above this one, on what was going down on this subject or thread … Why did it take up to post 66, and over three days later, to say so? :rolleyes:

And never explaining your point (but only nick picking), because everything I was saying… You claim you (which is all good) already knew, and I was just repeating it to you…

But in every post that I made you tore down everything I had to say, as it being incorrect or inconclusive…

I'm sorry I thought we were all in agreement that most here used it as a punch or for posturing, my bad...

But You made three post prior to your last one, just up above...


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Lets some the thread up....



If you knew way back in post 18 from another thread before this one, and three post prior to the one just above this one, on what was going down on this subject or thread … Why did it take up to post 66, and over three days later, to say so? :rolleyes:

Ive only posted on this thread a handfull of times if that.....others are offering thier view too, its not the "DREW" thread LOL.

I have a life, i dont visit internet sites daily.
Its what i do at work in my down time, all other spare time i have goes to training. simple.


Face it, you guys don’t attack with the “Mon Sao”, and in the system I study in we do, most of you guys just posture or strike with it some how

A strike is an attack in my book. :rolleyes: and we began this discussion by saying we use Mun as an attack to get a response (usually a block)


let’s face it gentlemen when the hands changes so does the weapon… The “Mon Sao is way to busy doing the things it be should doing before striking…

We obviously have different versions of what Mun Sao actually is in our respective VT systems. I mean its true of other actions between lineages.


“Mon Sao” is not just holding your arm up and posing, when one has problems understanding it or using it, their wing chun attacks will be less then resolve…

This could apply to every action in my VT and most here would agree with the bold text, so your point is moot. No right no wrong, we know :o


it’s very obvious you guys don’t have a clue on whats going on dealing with that clip

No its obvious we dont see as much value in it as you do, thats all.

I even asked where your Mun sao is introduced in your system, to see if it relates to what i call Mun Sao, otherwise its apples and oranges...but i didnt see a reply.
You dont have to reply, thats your perogative so we have no other choice -

Lets just drop it bro....

DREW

[Ali. R]

It’s all good !!!

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

No its obvious we dont see as much value in it as you do, thats all.
:D nice. -_-

[Ali. R]

Now it makes sense

What’s not valuable to some, is a treasure to most… :D


Ali Rahim.

[kung fu fighter]

How does "See form strike form, see shadow strike impression" kuen kuit relate to man sao?

[Ali. R]

How does "See form strike form, see shadow strike impression" kuen kuit relate to man sao?


I’m sorry, when I was a young sifu, I use to trade off forms for different forms in the wing chun system for example; learning a foshan dummy form, for my dummy form or learning a drill for an entry, ect…

But when it comes to the “kuen kuit” and an understanding between a student and a sifu, the teaching of those concepts should be taught within the close knit or combines of family as ‘Chris’ (a disciple) has work and learned of a few over the year or so…

And if they can teach them to their students, then that’s great… But I have visitors that come in from out of town a lot, and usually they go home with a couple under their belts…


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

Ali,

Why not share your knowledge of the Kuit here, seems like you are willing to share other things. IMO, it is unfair to come onto a forum and be unwilling to share ones knowledge. Do you view your "Kuen Kuit" as something mystical that no one else has? The kuen kuit are a source of knowledge and provide keywords to concepts within the system. I feel that if one claims to have knowledge of such things it is incorrect to not share that knowledge with others.

If one wishes to reserve such knowledge for those close to them, then why bother posting about it here on a public forum. The perception others may get may be less than flattering in such a situation.

[Ali. R]

Ali,

Why not share your knowledge of the Kuit here, seems like you are willing to share other things. IMO, it is unfair to come onto a forum and be unwilling to share ones knowledge. Do you view your "Kuen Kuit" as something mystical that no one else has? The kuen kuit are a source of knowledge and provide keywords to concepts within the system. I feel that if one claims to have knowledge of such things it is incorrect to not share that knowledge with others.

If one wishes to reserve such knowledge for those close to them, then why bother posting about it here on a public forum. The perception others may get may be less than flattering in such a situation.

To me, movements and applications are nothing… I’m sure others can answer that question, and in fact he did not single me out, I responded out of respect of his post and nothing more…

I’m sorry if I offended anyone, but it will be like pulling teeth getting that info… I just received it (with a lot of hard work) within 15 years ago and it was very importing to him that I learned it (my sifu)and understood it, and it wasn’t well into my master hood that I begin to understand it fully, and as taught by my sifu…

So why should I give something up so freely that I have gotten so late into my wing chun life, (after 15 years of studying) its no way that's going to happen...

That won’t make me if I answer that question or not, especially if nothing else haven’t already… so it shouldn’t be a big deal if I don’t… I’m not a wing chun authority and I’m sure I’m not on any of you guys list as being so, so why pretend that I have some type of knowledge or not…

I’m da*n if I do, and da*n if I don’t…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Ali,

Why not share your knowledge of the Kuit here, seems like you are willing to share other things. IMO, it is unfair to come onto a forum and be unwilling to share ones knowledge. Do you view your "Kuen Kuit" as something mystical that no one else has? The kuen kuit are a source of knowledge and provide keywords to concepts within the system. I feel that if one claims to have knowledge of such things it is incorrect to not share that knowledge with others.

If one wishes to reserve such knowledge for those close to them, then why bother posting about it here on a public forum. The perception others may get may be less than flattering in such a situation.

Point taken, however when one considers the video clips, posts that Ali has already contributed it is kinda premature to assume that anyone is unwilling to share knowledge...I think its more along the lines of 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.' Far be it for me to speak for Ali but Im hoping you get my point without taking it to heavily.
Whatever the case, Im always ready to hear explainations from the Hier to the Woo system! :D

[Sihing73]

Hello Ali,

I am only responding to your posts, you seem willing to share some things and not others. My perception is that sometimes you do this to make yourself appear more knowledgable. I could be completely wrong but this is the perception which I get. My point is that if one is willing to post on this forum and offer answers to questions one should be willing and able to do so. IMHO, FWIW, it is better to not respond to someons post asking a question, unless one is willing to offer an answer to the question posted. But that is just me.

Graychaun,

My response above should explain where I am coming from. I am simply dissappointed that Ali has chosen not to share his knowledge with the rest of us. My main point is there is no reason to make a post alluding to the fact that one knows the answer to a question but is unwilling or unable to answer such a question. It also confused me when Ali indicated that "visitors" who leave with some Kuit but this is not shared here on the forum. I mean if I were to visit the school would I gain access to the Kuit which Ali knows, if so why not share it here as well?


But when it comes to the “kuen kuit” and an understanding between a student and a sifu, the teaching of those concepts should be taught within the close knit or combines of family as ‘Chris’ (a disciple) has work and learned of a few over the year or so…

And if they can teach them to their students, then that’s great… But I have visitors that come in from out of town a lot, and usually they go home with a couple under their belts…
Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I didn’t think I would hear that type of stuff coming from you… By admitting that you could be wrong, (maybe I could be wrong also) you knew your approach was slightly off… I‘m doing it in respect of my sifu; I guess when I said it earlier, it wasn’t clear or good enough…

I was taught; anything that is worth pursuing is worth having... If I give you something that you really want for nothing, how would you respect me or the information that I’ve given you, and when you don’t have respect for me already?

The replies to my earlier posting should speak for that… You should no better... :D

You are reading way too much into this, I only posted in respect of that poster…

Why should I keep given up info when I’m always on the receiving end of someone’s doubt?



Ali Rahim.

[brothernumber9]

does "Mon" mean 'ask'? or 'offer' ?

[Ali. R]

does "Mon" mean 'ask'? or 'offer' ?


“Mon” is asking, but how would you ask for something; would you interact (speak), or would you just stand there with your hand out (say nothing)? :cool:


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I just got my camera fix, and just might put up some sparring clip of the “mon sao” in action…


Ali Rahim.

[kung fu fighter]

Can you also put up some clips of your triangle steps?

[Ali. R]

Can you also put up some clips of your triangle steps?


You bet I will... ;)


Ali Rahim.

[secretgecko]

i seem to recall a piece of poetry or lyrics which went something like this:

if you see a bridge (hand) - cross it

if there is no bridge (hand) - offer or ask for a bridge (hand)

these concepts may be applied either offensively or defensively and also before, during or after initiating either an offensive or defensive maneuvre depending on the situation.

just my two cents worth.

[Ali. R]

i seem to recall a piece of poetry or lyrics which went something like this:

if you see a bridge (hand) - cross it

if there is no bridge (hand) - offer or ask for a bridge (hand)

these concepts may be applied either offensively or defensively and also before, during or after initiating either an offensive or defensive maneuvre depending on the situation.

just my two cents worth.


:)You got that right, but most here on this thread feels as if they really have to do nothing but stand there, and use only telepathy… :D