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taijiquan_student
08-29-2001, 07:53 AM
I was just wondering, does anybody here practice some form of daoist meditation? It's so unusual these days to find someone who goes beyond the "I call myself a Daoist because I try to be natural and go with the flow" thing. I would be interested to hear about anyone's meditation practice. It could just be very general, or course--many daoists can't or don't talk about their practice specifically. In my school you can't really talk about specifics, method, etc. Besides, you don't know much before entering the door anyway.
Just being curious about the state of Daoism.
Sincerely,
T.S.

Nexus
08-29-2001, 10:01 AM
Dancing is great when you dance. Eating is great when you eat. Qi gong is great when you become the qi gong and let go. When first introduced to the eastern philosophies, I tried to be like the great sages. I tried to mimic what they had to say and incorporate what they said as what I had to say. Then I realized that I was trying to be instead of being. In being, 'you' no longer try. You just do. It is the most beautiful of beauties. The more you practice letting go, the easier it becomes.

This is often called mindfullness or awareness. When brushing your teeth or combing your hair just do that. Just brush your teeth, just comb your hair. If the mind begins to wander, encourage it to pay attention to the task at hand. You will find within doing so the subtlties you discover are fascinating. In being, you can be compassionate. If you try to be compassionate you will struggle. In being, you can love. If you try to love, you will struggle.

You may understand this or come to understand this through time. I do not completely understand this even, and in being one cannot try not to try, they must just be. Read the quote at the end of my posts, see if that makes sense. It's all very hard to explain and put into words because Daoism and the following of the paths is different for each of us, so with that said just be yourself. The Tao Te Ching might be a good pointer do the ideas presented regarding the Tao.

If you have any questions more specific please ask.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
08-29-2001, 11:32 AM
When discussing Taoist meditation it is important to identify what perspective of Taoism you are referring too. The alchemical Taoists are attempting to develop a balance of qi for the purpose of longevity and sometimes spiritual powers. The religious Taoists attempt to protect themselves from numerous demons and court the beneficence of the “good” gods. Contemplative Taoists (the original perspective of Taoism) seek to bring themselves into accord with the natural patterns of life. As such there is no clearly defined method of meditation. One would meditate according to their individual need or inclination at the time. They may meditate standing, sitting, lying down, working, eliminating their bowels, in the middle of a hurricane, etc. They may focus on one point or thought, use imagery, chant a mantra, or a combination of these. Contemplative Taoists recognize that everything occurs in the “fullness of time” and “to everything there is a season”. As such confining themselves to a strict regime may not be in accord with effortless personal development. Technically speaking, a Contemplative Taoist would not rule out a strict regime either. They would remain flexible, responding to their internally perceive personal needs and inclinations at the time.

So, you may ask, “How should one meditate?” I would answer, “Explore a number of methods and use the method that feels most comfortable to you remaining flexible. When your inclination or personal needs seem to indicate a change is in order, explore another method”.

Or not!!!

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
08-29-2001, 06:38 PM
Your post confused me Scott :)

Or Not!

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

MasterPhil
08-29-2001, 07:48 PM
I mostly second what Scott already said. It is what I did anyway. The Scholar Warrior book may give you some additional insights into "taoist" meditation.

The rareness of documented taoist meditation practices is in part due to the fact that unlike Buddhism for example, Daoism is something to be experienced/understood first and foremost and does not lend itself well to be "taught". IMHO Daoism cannot be "taught" like most other religions/philosophies. I would be suspicious of any daoist "teachers". They are either fakes/crazies or they are sectarian/religious and neither are good.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

prana
08-30-2001, 02:06 AM
This is soo great :)

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

taijiquan_student
08-30-2001, 02:43 AM
When talking about daoism, I think it's important to distinguish what type of daoism you are talking about, as there is a wide range of types, mainly: Alchemical Daoism, Religious Daoism, and Philosophical Daoism. In terms of Daoism being "taught", this also has to do with the kind of Daoism. For example, Internal Alchemy is taught. There is a precise procedure/method, the practice is part of a specific school/tradition, you practice everyday, with a goal in mind. In the temples of the more (internal) alchemical schools there is a daily regimine which you follow. You try to follow the Dao, but there is also a specific structure to what you do.
In philosophical Daoism, generally, you aren't "taught", at least not much, and can succeed on this path usually just by wandering the mountains(if you're in china), contemplating the dao, and by meditation, mostly with no specific method or steps of progress, as in the alchemical schools. Laozi and Chuangzi belong mostly in this school.
Religious daoism is quite different from other kinds, and many religious daoists didn't meditate much at all. They would pray to their gods, have temples, very much like christianity, only polytheistic.
One thing to remember, however, is that these types of daoism usually overlap--an alchemical school might have in their temple, a place dedicated to the "7 distinguished masters"(i think that's their name) or the "8 immortals".
Location was important in the type of daoism, too. If you lived in the mountains, you were more likely to practice an alchemical(or philosophical) form, while cities and towns were more likely to have religious daoism emphasized.
This is just my understanding.
--T.S.

Scott R. Brown
08-30-2001, 03:14 AM
Nexus,

The “Or not” was sort of a very obtuse inside joke. I did not really expect anyone to get it. In the 1970’s there was a book written entitled “Jonathan Livingston Seagull”, by Richard Bach. Richard Bach wrote a second book entitled, “Illusions, the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah”. This is actually the book that taught be about “perspective”. In my younger days it was one of my favorite books and I read it often. In the story the “Reluctant Messiah” had a sort of Messiah’s handbook of pithy aphoristic sayings. When he got stuck not sure of what to do he would open it to any page and the page would display some vague reference to what direction or decision he should make. Of course it would not provide him with a direct answer to his dilemma. He had to reflect on what he read to understand the meaning. I have not reread the book in close to 20 years. The very last thing written in the Messiah’s handbook is, “Every thing in this book may be wrong”.

The point is we are all ultimately responsible for our own decisions, the Messiah could not say, “Well the Handbook said to do such and such”. Ultimately any decision we make is ours to make and the consequences are our responsibility. Since we are each unique individuals advice we receive from any source may not necessarily apply to us. The lessons we each have to learn in life apply to only us. Someone else having the exact same experiences would most probably learn different lessons. Therefore, any advice we give to another may not give them the same results that we received. It is the responsibility for each individual to examine and weigh the advice and information they receive and decide for themselves what decision to make. Then take responsibility for that decision and its consequences and not blame unpleasant consequences on the advice given.

The “or not” simply means “The Tao that can be spoken, is not the eternal (true) Tao”. Ultimately, I have no idea what is best for anybody but me and many times that is doubtful. The information I share may not be effective for Taijiquan Student or anybody else.

The bottom line is that it was a bizarre joke that I did not expect anybody to get.

Sincerely,

Scott

MasterPhil
08-30-2001, 04:53 AM
T.S. : All you said in your previous post is very true and I share your understanding. Since I only have a superficial/scholarly knowledge of the alchemical and religious schools/branches, when I spoke of Daoism as "not being taught", I was really only referring to the philosophical aspect with which I am more familiar. I should have specified. My excitement speeded my words too much. ;)

Scott : This is too funny. I actually "did" get your joke but wasn't even aware why! Only when you explained the source did I remember I had read those books a long time ago. Guess it stuck in the back of my mind... They were good. I hadn't made the link with daoism since I didn't know anything about it then. Maybe I should read Illusions again with a new perspective... :)

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

MasterPhil
08-30-2001, 05:09 AM
Since you guys are such great folks, I'll share with you this very personal experience. I say very personal because it is just that. I don't pretend to be better or more enlightened. It is just something that happened and since we are on the subject of meditation and doism, I thought I would share with you the origin of my username (it actually happened a while before I joined this forum).

A couple years ago, I was sitting in meditation in front of a lit candle at night. I had planned to do simple basic meditation for 15-20 min. I started by relaxing my muscles, keeping my body structure and alignment. I focused on my breathing, slowing it down to a long deep cycle of inhale/exhale. When deeply relaxed, I started to relax my mind as well. Letting my thoughts come and go freely, they started to be fewer and fewer until I reached what I call the state of Nothingness.

This is the part where it gets tricky for me. I find it hard to maintain this state because sooner or later, I become aware of this state and as soon as I become aware of it, my mind processes it as a thought thus breaking the state. Even if I persevere, go back to concentrating on my breathing alone, and let go of my awareness, it is only a matter of time before my ego becomes excited of having reached that plateau that my mind can no longer ignore it and thinks of it thus breaking the state again. I never got past it. I can maintain it for a while but I can't seem to be able control this state from stopping eventually.

Back to that night, I was floating in nothingness for about ten minutes (which is pretty long for me). By this time, my mind usually becomes aware again and thinks about achieving this state. But unlike other times, a single thought jumped to my mind. Silent thunder…

My first reaction was to let it go like all other random thoughts but I was surprised by the unusual thought and its apparent contradiction. Silent thunder. I decided to let my mind play with the idea for a while. Like the tao, the idea came to me as one concept. Though it is obviously made of two distinct ideas. Silence and thunder. Equally powerful but in different ways. There is silence when energy is collected and there is thunder when that collected energy is released. Both ideas emanate from nature and are also reflected in the human mind landscape. The mind is silent when void of random thoughts, and each random thought is like thunder, tearing the fabric of silence, only to be reborn when the thunder fades away. Seemingly opposite though deeply linked. There cannot be silence when there is thunder, nor can there be thunder when it is silent. Yet they follow each other in eternal succession. Yin and Yang. Two opposite aspects of the same grand idea.

It didn’t take long to realize that this was not a usual random thought but rather a message from my subconscious or "essential self". Because this thought seemed to embody the spirit of Taoism so perfectly, because it came to me when I was in deep meditation, because I analyze my own perception of reality in taoist terms, and because silent thunder is much more descriptive of who I am than my birth name, I chose Silent Thunder as my Taoist name and carry it happily in my heart since then. When I joined this forum, the temptation was too great not to use it.

It is late again. I talk too much. Hope nobody fell asleep while reading my post ;)

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

Scott R. Brown
08-30-2001, 05:28 AM
Silent Thunder,

Very cool experience!! Thank you for sharing it.
I think I will go have a glass dry water and go grab some wakeful sleep.

Or am I a butterfly?

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
08-30-2001, 08:49 AM
Now Scott, I think for a moment you were on the right track! Which moment?

Today I dropped my Berry Slushy and it sprayed all over my pants. I laughed! Years ago I would have been ****ed. Taowowow!

It's late, I too need sleep, as evident in my above rambling.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
08-30-2001, 11:04 AM
Nexus,

I am pretty sure it was "that" moment. Don't you think?

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Or was the other one? I forget!! :D

Scott