is Tan Tui a northern shaolin art?

[Giuseppe_S]

i was just wondering if anyone on here could clear up my puzzled querry. I was doing some research on the tinternet regarding tantui and its history, mainly of where and when it was founded and who by. Some sites state that tantui is a chinese moslem art where as others state it comes from the northern shaolin temple.
i'm a little confused:confused: any help or any individual thoughts would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards.

Giuseppe

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It is a Northern Moslem art that somehow got mixed into Shaolin temple.

[diego]

It is a Northern Moslem art that somehow got mixed into Shaolin temple.

they adopted it because of the milatary line drill format of the warrior muslem gung fu...I think I read that in an old chinese tantuit book at the library...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

[Giuseppe_S]

thanks guys, for your input. Now i just have one more question regarding tantui. Is it practiced in the sense of say Kata in Karate, where you are attacking and defending against invisible opponents? I know it sounds a bit stupid but i was wondering what Tantui signifies.

thanks again.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I suppose you could, but it's really more for conditioning and body mechanics training. You should practice against real opponent, not imaginary.

Take the individual techniques out of the form and work them as individual techniques with your training partners. When doing the solo form, focus your intent on perfecting the body method (Mechanics) of the art.

[Ben Gash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiKwzMg9LTk

[SPJ]

Tan tui is swamp/lake leg/fist.

or bouncy leg/fist.

there are many forms/routines including weapons.

it is a school/style of fighting methods.

there are 8, 10, 12, roads tan tui routines. these are commonly known.

however, there are more other stuff.

some are passing down, some are lost.

--

[SPJ]

norther shaolin arts

referring not only to song shan shao lin temple, but also many other temples that are related or under its auspice.

there are many shao lin related temples thruout northern china such as those in shan dong etc .

shaolin used to be a geographical center of northern china.

many people travel and be a guest there.

it is an exchange and preservation ground for many martial arts.

--

[Mano Mano]

they adopted it because of the milatary line drill format of the warrior muslem gung fu...I think I read that in an old chinese tantuit book at the library...
I think the Idea of the roads comes from the military line drill. I read some where that the creator of tan tui was a muslin soldier serving in the Chinese Amy fighting the Wokou & probably served under General Qi Jiguang or Yu Dayou.

[golden arhat]

back when i did hung kune (really terrible teacher) we all had to learn tam tui before progressing on to the made up animal sets and eventually tiger crane etc (although for some reason taming the tiger wasnt included)

anyway i got up to about the 8th road and found it of little or no help to my sparring or self defence needs with the two man drills having little to do with fighting at all

[mickey]

Greetings,

SPJ:

Could you elaborate on the "more other stuff" please?


mickey

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

anyway i got up to about the 8th road and found it of little or no help to my sparring or self defence needs with the two man drills having little to do with fighting at all

Reply]
That is because you had a crappy teacher. Tan Tui is a Northern art, and fights totally different than Hun Gar does, so it's a conflicting methodology. Sounds like your teacher was just using it as a leg/kicking drill, and was not really diving deep into it as a fighting system all it's own. If you had a real Tan Tui teacher who could show you the usage I am sure you would see quite a bit of value in the art.

[SPJ]

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/34466342.html

forgot the links.

but the link above from baidu has good info, too.

a. lake leg;

1. ling qing tan tui

it is from tang dynasty, there are 10 roads.

2. shaolin tan tui

xian ji chan monk from shaolin learned ling qing tan tui in ming dynasty.

he took tan tui to shaolin and added 2 more roads. in exchange, he taught shaolin luohan fist to shan dong ling qing lake temple.

3. chin woo tan tui

it is from huo yuan jia.

b. bouncy leg

1. jiao men tan tui

from moslem chinese.

2. tong bei tan tui

from cang zhou, he bei.

3. 6 roads tan tui

simplified from 10 roads.

c. tao lu

1 10 tang tan tui for beginner

2, 18 tang (trip) za (cha) quan, the first 6 tang, mid 6 tang, final 6 tang.

other short forms.

weapons:

1 dao (broad sword): ba bu, lian huan, wang cheng, chun chiu etc.

2. qiang (spear): yin shou, liu he, ba bao,

3. some kind of hook, tang, dun know how to translate in english.

there one man and 2 man drills of the weapon forms.

on and on.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.56.com/u75/v_MTg1NDM4NjQ.html

a cctv show about tan tui.

:)

[SPJ]

1. ling qing was in the middle of song, liao, and jin.

the city was taken over many times by all sides.

one of the infantry head hid in the long tan temple, his name was kun lung da shi.

both liao and jin are migrant people, they are good at shuai and na.

song army was weak, however, song civilians picked up MA learning and defending themself on the border towns.

tan tui was created by kun lung monk. liao and jin are good at upper body and arms for shuai and na. so tan tui was created to defeat the enemy at lower body or legs.

2. xian ji introduced tan tui to shaolin, xian ji also introduced luo han fist methods to shan dong ling qing dragon lake temple.

so tan tui has hand methods of luo han.

shao lin has tan tui as their leg methods.

3. canal systems were built in yuan, ling qing was in the center/middle of the canal system. there are many merchants and martial artists came and learned tan tui.

4. in ming and qing dynasty, ling qing continued to be the center of commerce along the canal system. tan tui was learned and incorporated into many northern style, such as hua quan.

--

[SanHeChuan]

Aren't some tan tui versions set up to be two man sets. Like roads 1-6 fit together with roads 7-12 or whatever numbers.

[David Jamieson]

It's a good set. Said to be a muslim martial art practice in origin and is included in styles of shaolin although i don't think it is currently practiced there at the temple proper. It shows up in various places from different lineages of northern shaolin styles kungfu.

[Chan Da-Wei]

Aren't some tan tui versions set up to be two man sets. Like roads 1-6 fit together with roads 7-12 or whatever numbers.

Yeah, the 12 section Tam Tui routine is the first form taught in the Chin Woo school and is often taught (to beginners) in two groups of 6 movements. Jie Tan Tui (2 person spring kicking) is another of the Chin Woo fundamental routines.

[mickey]

SPJ,

Thank you for your translation.

Re Xian Ji: I have long believed that the Shaolin 12 section Tan Tui and the 6 section Duan Da comprised the original 18 Lohan Technique. I never had some sort of proof until now.

Thank you for sharing,

mickey

[ngokfei]

Regarding the Chin Woo's Tan Tui - what I've heard and read is that the Tan Tui of Huo Yun Jia was not preserved there.

Zhao Lin He who was also a Mizong Stylist is said to have taken his 10 road Tan Tui and restructured it thus ending up with a 12 road set.

Perhaps he just had also learned Shaolin's 12 Road version and taught that instead?

Isn't Kuoshu's standard Tan Tui 10 Road Routine also from the Mizong Style?

[SanHeChuan]

Yeah, the 12 section Tam Tui routine is the first form taught in the Chin Woo school and is often taught (to beginners) in two groups of 6 movements. Jie Tan Tui (2 person spring kicking) is another of the Chin Woo fundamental routines.

What I meant is that the tam tui could be done as a two person set, the first half corresponding to the second half. I know I read about one tradition that did that.
I don't think it was the Chin Woo Tradition though because I know that one through 7-Star mantis.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Re Zhao Lin He/Chao Lian Ho:

He was credited with the development of the two man set of Tan Tui. That he added two sets to the ten line version is "news" to me. The 12 line version of Chin Woo is more aligned with other 12 line versions that I have seen that are of Shaolin origin.

With regard to Lost Track, I have heard the fourth road of Tan Tui associated with it.


mickey

[ginosifu]

Thru my lineage:

The translation reads "Springing or Snapping Legs"

There are 10, 12, 24, 108 road sets and 2 person sets.

Ginosifu

[ngokfei]

The translation varies by the dictionary you use. In the end they all mean the same.

I've heard of the 24/28 road set but a 108 Road?

What style/school does a 108 Road version?:eek:

Talk about a back and ball buster;)

[B-Rad]

That's a lot of roads :eek:

[banditshaw]

Check this clip out. I like the flow.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4UspyrlgjvQ

[SanHeChuan]

That he added two sets to the ten line version is "news" to me.
I didn't know how many roads it was, I just picked a number.



Check this clip out. I like the flow.

I guess it kind of flowed but there was no intention there at all, he looked powder puff. Where was the power, it looked like hand waving.

[banditshaw]

I guess it kind of flowed but there was no intention there at all, he looked powder puff. Where was the power, it looked like hand waving.

LOL.
There wasn't any hard power, sure ...maybe soft?

Have you seen any other clips of Tan Tui with that intention you mention?

I wouldn't say he was powder puff...I've seen worse that fits that description though.

[diego]

1. ling qing was in the middle of song, liao, and jin.

the city was taken over many times by all sides.

one of the infantry head hid in the long tan temple, his name was kun lung da shi.

both liao and jin are migrant people, they are good at shuai and na.

song army was weak, however, song civilians picked up MA learning and defending themself on the border towns.

tan tui was created by kun lung monk. liao and jin are good at upper body and arms for shuai and na. so tan tui was created to defeat the enemy at lower body or legs.

2. xian ji introduced tan tui to shaolin, xian ji also introduced luo han fist methods to shan dong ling qing dragon lake temple.

so tan tui has hand methods of luo han.

shao lin has tan tui as their leg methods.

3. canal systems were built in yuan, ling qing was in the center/middle of the canal system. there are many merchants and martial artists came and learned tan tui.

4. in ming and qing dynasty, ling qing continued to be the center of commerce along the canal system. tan tui was learned and incorporated into many northern style, such as hua quan.

--

I'm curious, what's special about their leg methods?:)...like hung ga has low horse and tiger claw iron bridge for specialty...

[diego]

Yeah, the 12 section Tam Tui routine is the first form taught in the Chin Woo school and is often taught (to beginners) in two groups of 6 movements. Jie Tan Tui (2 person spring kicking) is another of the Chin Woo fundamental routines.

I always read that tan tui is basic martial art, but this tells me it is really good methods if many styles adopt it...does anyone have video of a master level performance of the line roads?...like full power and execution?...something an army would do...

[SoCo KungFu]

anyway i got up to about the 8th road and found it of little or no help to my sparring or self defence needs with the two man drills having little to do with fighting at all

Reply]
That is because you had a crappy teacher. Tan Tui is a Northern art, and fights totally different than Hun Gar does, so it's a conflicting methodology. Sounds like your teacher was just using it as a leg/kicking drill, and was not really diving deep into it as a fighting system all it's own. If you had a real Tan Tui teacher who could show you the usage I am sure you would see quite a bit of value in the art.

While I understand what you are trying to say, its not totally accurate. Tan Tui as an art suffers from what a lot of "northern" styles get, that longfistobia. If you do as you say, learn from a teacher that really can emply its technique, like many "longfist" it actually enjoys a rather short range power base. Similar to southern kungfu. One more reason why I think that a lot of the so called differences in northern and southern are more illusional. But that's another topic.

For me, having in my kung fu practiced northern mantis and hung gar. Mantis is more than just the hooky fist and Hung gar more than just pouncing around like a big cat. Tan Tui, for me, is really the centre point in melding the two systems (in the techniques that I prefer) along with the overlap between various of the 12 mantis keys and the 12 bridges of hung gar. Personally when in actual use, Tan Tui to me is very similar to hung.

The major difference is in the employment of kicking. Being that the system is rather linear in technique (though it can be employed with twisting force), the kicking tends to come off with less angle. While from what I have thus studied of hung gar, the majority of leg technique is employed with the evasiveness from the crane aspect and thus more off center. But that could just be the way I have found them to issue out. I'm sure either could be taken in either direction.

The cool thing is that the way the stance plants makes a decent enough base (as long as you don't overextend) for transitioning to either the leg cutting I learned in mantis or the striking from hung gar.

[TenTigers]

yes, I agree with yu and have to dissagree with RD. Having studied both Bok Siu Lum and Hung-Ga, I found Tan-Tuie to be an excellent foundational drill. It teaches stances, transitions, waist twisting,contains strikes such as jik kuen, ping choy,been choy, sow choy, jong and cup, segmented power generation, throws, locking,sweeps, oh yeah, and kicks. A good horse, bow,cat,drop step,and twisted horse, is emphasized as well as a rigid,militaristic drilling sequence-which is excellent for training a group of students. You can stop at any point, make corrections and continue as a unit.
There is a reason that China adapted it into the line drills for the military as well as line drills in standardized contemporary wu-shu,it is a great overall training tool.
of course, you realize however, that it is a form which, according to the consensus of the TCMA community is useless....

:rolleyes::p:D:p:D:p:D:p:D:D:

[banditshaw]

I do a set called Ching Nin Kuen which roughly means youth fist. It has some tan tui elements in it. It also a two person set. It's definitely Northern.
I find it to be a good bridge between the Hung and CLF I do. Footwork wise its more springy and the fists and hands are not much different to Hung/CLF.

[Sal Canzonieri]

SPJ,

Thank you for your translation.

Re Xian Ji: I have long believed that the Shaolin 12 section Tan Tui and the 6 section Duan Da comprised the original 18 Lohan Technique. I never had some sort of proof until now.

Thank you for sharing,

mickey

Now that's very interesting.

How can you sort out the Luohan from the tan tui? Since it is just the hand movements.

Also, which Luohan Quan, Shaolin has many different Luohan Quan sets, depending on which time period it is.

Which 6 section Duan Da, Shaolin has a lot of them too.

I'd like to check this out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Regarding the Chin Woo's Tan Tui - what I've heard and read is that the Tan Tui of Huo Yun Jia was not preserved there.

Zhao Lin He who was also a Mizong Stylist is said to have taken his 10 road Tan Tui and restructured it thus ending up with a 12 road set.

Perhaps he just had also learned Shaolin's 12 Road version and taught that instead?

Isn't Kuoshu's standard Tan Tui 10 Road Routine also from the Mizong Style?

Shaolin tan tui looks completely different and is based on different ideas, the only thing the same is that it is done in rows with a spring kick.

Wouldn't Zhao know the same Mizong 10 Tan tui as Huo Yun Jia, since they were both from the same style?

Kuoshu's standard 10 tan tui is from Moslem tan tui I thought, I don't remember which family branch it is from. It came from Wang Zi Ping, didn't it? Didn't he teach there in the beginning?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Greetings,

Re Zhao Lin He/Chao Lian Ho:

He was credited with the development of the two man set of Tan Tui. That he added two sets to the ten line version is "news" to me. The 12 line version of Chin Woo is more aligned with other 12 line versions that I have seen that are of Shaolin origin.

With regard to Lost Track, I have heard the fourth road of Tan Tui associated with it.


mickey

But the 12 row Shaolin tai tui looks and acts nothing like the Chin Woo 12 tan tui.
Many schools call the Chin Woo 12 tan Tui the "SHAOLIN" 12 tan tui, but it is not THE Shaolin tan tui, they just call it that instead of Chin Woo. Many of Chin Qoo school's sets are called Shaolin set, that's the same as saying 'long fist'.

Here's the classic 10 Tan tui (Kuoshou school):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJup-h-p_ck

Here's the real Shaolin tan tui, same as it is done in the Shaolin Encyclopedia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zplTTFjh9KY

Here's the Chin Woo 12 tan tui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iz0ZP8nlSI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJoj1RRYd4


Does the Chin Woo 12 look much more related to this 10 tan tui or to the Shaolin Tan tui?

This set is called Shaolin 12 Tan tui, in honor of Shaolin, but it is clearly the Chin Woo set, and they will tell you that it is from there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-WdX8VebqU

This is a Mizong Tan tui set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3SLaAwUBA

Another version of Cha Quan 10 Tan Tui, different branch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbXyJOE2Dhc

Here's the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, first section of 8 rows, for comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8

[ngokfei]

Hey sal

From rescent conversations I've been told that Zhao simplified the 10 Road Tan Tui that he had (I assume the Mizone version) ending up with a 12 road set.

I've seen a few different versions of Mizong's Tan Tui set, don't know if Zhao and Huo came from the same lineage.

I assume the "Shaolin" monicker came from Mizong being associated with Shaolin and thus it stuck that way.

and yes I believe the Kuoshu's Tan Tui did come from Wang Zi Ping.

Bandishaw

Recently have discovered that the Ching Nin Kuen is a Kuoshu set and is called the 24 beat set in Tien Shan Pai. I believe it is one of 3 basic sets created in Kuoshu, I know that the 2nd set is called 42 beat

[banditshaw]

Bandishaw

Recently have discovered that the Ching Nin Kuen is a Kuoshu set and is called the 24 beat set in Tien Shan Pai. I believe it is one of 3 basic sets created in Kuoshu, I know that the 2nd set is called 42 beat

Hey Ngokfei,
Thanks for the info on that. Now I have a reference point.

Cheers.

[MasterKiller]

Here's the real Shaolin tan tui, same as it is done in the Shaolin Encyclopedia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zplTTFjh9KY

This looks very similar to the 12 road tan tui taught by most CMA masters in Seoul.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This looks very similar to the 12 road tan tui taught by most CMA masters in Seoul.

What does that mean, do you think? Hmm, strange.
Does it mean the Korean 12 tan tui comes from the Shaolin 12 tan tui not the more modern CHin Woo (Jing Wu) school's 12 tan tui?
If that is true, then korea made have been doing this set a long time.

[diego]

What does that mean, do you think? Hmm, strange.
Does it mean the Korean 12 tan tui comes from the Shaolin 12 tan tui not the more modern CHin Woo (Jing Wu) school's 12 tan tui?
If that is true, then korea made have been doing this set a long time.

Hey Sal, are you in that Punk documentary "American Hardcore, a retrospective 1980-1986"...I thought I saw you in it!?.:)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal, are you in that Punk documentary "American Hardcore, a retrospective 1980-1986"...I thought I saw you in it!?.:)

Yeah, that's me, I was part of that scene and still am.
Played in bands back then, had a record store that many of the bands visited, and wrote for fanzines, and had a radio show, etc.
I knew the filmmakers and the author of the book of the same name (and supplied them with many of the graphics and help come up with the structure of the book).

[banditshaw]

Yeah, that's me, I was part of that scene and still am.
Played in bands back then, had a record store that many of the bands visited, and wrote for fanzines, and had a radio show, etc.
I knew the filmmakers and the author of the book of the same name (and supplied them with many of the graphics and help come up with the structure of the book).

I saw that Documentary. Good stuff.
I'll have to re watch it and look out for you man.

Peace.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o45N7bP7eY

This clip has only six sections (12 roads). Are the other six section online some where?
Its is section 8 (roads 15 and 16) and section 10 (roads 19 and 20) that I am most interested in.

Although Shi Degen called his Shaolin Tan Tui 二十四路彈腿 (24 Roads (路) Rebound/Spring Legs/kick) it is made up of 12 sections (路) with each section performed four times in two roads.

The 12 section Tan Tui in our tradition is done in 24 roads as well, each section done on with left and right side, traveling back and forth in two 'roads'.

The name passed on by our tradition is however is 譚腿十二路 (Master Tan Legs/kicks 12 sections)

Jing wu 十二路潭腿; Twelve Rows of Spring Leg. Their version is done in 12 roads with each section repeated 3 times in one line.

Shi Degen's Shaolin Tan Tui, Jingwu Shaolin Tan Tui as well as our Shaolin Tan Tui are 12 sections. From the 6 sections in this clip of ‪Zhu Tian Xi‬ doing it there are some common elements. (eg. the kick and the end of each section and as well as other elements that are common to these three versions)
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o45N7bP7eY

This clip has only six sections (12 roads). Are the other six section online some where?
Its is section 8 (roads 15 and 16) and section 10 (roads 19 and 20) that I am most interested in.

Although Shi Degen called his Shaolin Tan Tui 二十四路彈腿 (24 Roads (路) Rebound/Spring Legs/kick) it is made up of 12 sections (路) with each section performed four times in two roads.

The 12 section Tan Tui in our tradition is done in 24 roads as well, each section done on with left and right side, traveling back and forth in two 'roads'.

The name passed on by our tradition is however is 譚腿十二路 (Master Tan Legs/kicks 12 sections)

Jing wu 十二路潭腿; Twelve Rows of Spring Leg. Their version is done in 12 roads with each section repeated 3 times in one line.

Shi Degen's Shaolin Tan Tui, Jingwu Shaolin Tan Tui as well as our Shaolin Tan Tui are 12 sections. From the 6 sections in this clip of ‪Zhu Tian Xi‬ doing it there are some common elements. (eg. the kick and the end of each section and as well as other elements that are common to these three versions)
r.

I search everywhere for the other 12 (6) but Zhu Tianzi never showed on video as far as I know the rest of this set. Haven't found his students doing it either.

[r.(shaolin)]

I search everywhere for the other 12 (6) but Zhu Tianzi never showed on video as far as I know the rest of this set. Haven't found his students doing it either.

Is this set shown in the 4 vol. Shaolin Encyclopedia?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is this set shown in the 4 vol. Shaolin Encyclopedia?

Nope, almost none of Shi Degen's version of Shaolin routines are in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.