What do you know of KIU SAO...???

[Ultimatewingchun]

Literally means: "bridging hands"

(kiu = bridge)......(sao = hands).

So I look upon it as the "bridge" you cross in order to send your troops into battle - and therefore it almost always means some form of limb-to-limb connection between you and the opponent. (Although technically you could say that any path you take into his territory - even if there was no resistance met in the form of one of his limbs contacting or intercepting you - could still be considered a "bridge").

HOWEVER, my understanding of KIU SAO is that it almost always entails some sort of limb-to-limb contact point between the two of you that, if handled skillfully, allows you to defend against what might be coming "across the bridge" (or attempting to come across) and into your territory looking to do damage (ie.- a punch, a kick, a knee, an elbow, a grab of some kind, etc.)...

and more importantly...a limb-to-limb contact point that serves as a "bridge" over which you bring your troops across to do damage.

So any contact point - even a very short range one - can be considered an opportunity for a Kiu Sao maneuver of some kind.

That said, KIU SAO almost always means a LONGER DISTANCE exists as a starting point than what would be the case in dan chi sao or double arm chi sao, because the closer range used in double arm chi sao usually means that the bridge between the two of you has already in a sense been crossed - since the both of you are just within a half step or less (perhaps no step at all) from hitting each other.

And therefore the starting point of KIU SAO is usually one of your extended limbs contacting one of his extended limbs from a distance that's further away than where your bodies would be if it were double arm chi sao.

So it's going to entail more footwork than the basic half step mostly used in double arm - and usually a different angling of the body on the way in (as one example, what's done in the last section of the VT bart jum do (butterfly sword) form - which is the same MON SAO type move used in TWC's bil jee form, btw...)

(I should also note at this point that the term "kiu sao" is not used in TWC - but other words and terms are used to convey the same exact concept as I'm defining it here).

And while I'm on the subject of different wing chun systems defining it differently - Moy Yat, for example, used to teach a FURTHER EXTENDED ARMS position version of double arm chi sao that he called "cheng kiu sao". (He translated it as "long arm chi sao" - and the contact point was the four hands - not wrists or forearms).

So one of the points about KIU SAO then is that it will almost always entail having more SPACE to account for and occupy than in basic double arm chi sao...more TIME to account for since more can happen in that interval of time than what is usually the case from the more closer range double arm starting position...and more types of ENERGY to develop and work with since you must now do more than simply punch within a half steps' distance, or stick, run, grab, pak, lop, etc. from that same distance.

(And more skill sets to be developed in terms of what parts of your limbs should be used against what part(s) of his at any given moment - since the distance, timing, and energy issues also correspond to different distances on your arms, wrists, elbows, hands, and even fingers...as well as the same principles applying to different parts of your legs, knees, and feet - since the legs can also be making a "kiu sao" bridge at any given moment as well).

But back to the hands for a moment. In fact, gum sao and po pai are both "extended" hands and the corresponding more "extended" energies (or force) that seam to be a BRIDGE all their own - in that they "bridge" different energy types (push and strike and stiff arm - all in one)...and they bridge different range of distances...and a slightly different timing since it will take slightly longer to complete a properly executed jum sao or po pai.

So KIU SAO is about bridging into his territory from different starting points than dan chi sao or double arm chi sao.

And more combinations of things can happen here regarding angling, footwork, energy (or force), punching , palm strikes, kicks, (including more longer extended kicks than a front heel kick)....knees, elbows, armlocks, sweeps, etc.

And another extremely important concept thoroughly covered in KIU SAO is "facing" (Deui Ying)....for at certain longer range distances especially - you don't always face your centerline to the opponent's center-of-mass...you might have to face your centerline to another point on his body where a blow or an attack is coming in (ie.- his elbow when he punches from longer range, his knee when he kicks from a longer range)...

And you may have to punch or kick back at him from a point other than your centerline (ie.- a shoulder line or chest line)...etc.

It's going to depend upon how much SPACE you need to account for, cover, occupy, and control - for longer looping punches and kicks cannot be "faced" safely with your centerline facing his center-of-mass since you may not be close enough to CONTROL THE SPACE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU completely and seal the area off with forward force, energy, and instant penetration, ie.- you may get hit or kicked because you're not close enough to take advantage of the 'shortest distance between two points is a straight line' principle....

Since the preferred wing chun way is to drive back him on his heels or collapsing his structure with your "troops on the bridge and at his gates" (literally and figuratively, ie.- lop sao, chuen sao (threading hand), gum sao, kwan sao, po pai, and even an aggressive bong sao with a lan sao type energy come to mind). But first you have to have sealed the area before that strategy works - accounting for the three main factors once again: the timing needed, the space you have to occupy, and the amount (and type) of energy/force you need to use or absorb/deflect/redirect down, up, to the side, or away.

Hence very close quarter standup combat is the wing chun preference - and KIU SAO is a means of getting there.

So KIU SAO has a more dynamic flow of the entire fight than what happens in double arm chi sao,....including breaking apart completely (gor sau/sparring) and coming back in via SOME FORM OF KIU SAO - or just by punching or kicking in at targets on lines that don't entail any limb-to-limb contact before the strike is made.

[KPM]

Thanks for that summary Victor! I couldn't keep up with the discussion on the HFY thread and have wondered what conclusions were reached. And you said all of that without once sounding like a Chinese nuclear physicist! :D It sounds like the "Kiu Sao" you describe is an organized method of teaching how to "close the gap."

[tjwingchun]

Don´t understand Chinese and don´t use terminology to explain the principles and concepts I teach, but from what you say, my interpretation is simple "bridging" however I tend to use the following definitions.

Chi Sao is also called the "bridge" between forms and fighting, Chum Kiu is the "bridging hands" form.

A thought I use from the second form which is one of the few "words" from William Cheung relates to the first third, where after the 3 turns you use the double lan to maintain being square onto your opponent, the Ding Sau is used to understand range, Tan Sau brings the elbows to the fixed position, Tok and Jut control the arms before the palms are used to strike.

Essentially, always try to be square to your opponent know your range and maintain the fixed elbow position and control before striking.

What I add to the Chi Sau being the "bridge" discussion is that any bridge needs steps on and off to make it effective, I teach "entry techniques" to get onto the bridge and describe "off loading techniques" which finish the confrontation once on the other side.

From my interpretation of your post you are mainly referring to what I call "entry" strategies, whether using arms or legs the simple understanding of what goes on before you have made contact with your opponent, the whole issue of defensive or offensive methods depends upon what is at the core of Wing Chun mentality, "if´s", "but´s" and "maybe´s" of reality.

If we could predict the future we can state with certainty what a student should do when faced with a violent confrontation, but being lacking in that particular aspect all I can offer is a more generalised but flexible way of analysing potential fighting scenarios.

There is always the most well known street defence that relates to "bridging" if bridging is pre-contact, when faced with a fight situation RUN:eek::D:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"It sounds like the 'Kiu Sao' you describe is an organized method of teaching how to "close the gap." (Keith P. Myers/ KPM)

***BUT with the specific dimension being that limb-to-contact (usually one of your arms - but sometimes two) will be the guiding connector/force that leads to the actual striking of hard targets on his body and head - or a lock or a sweep.

Think of the line that extends to his body and head targets as being the actual "bridge" CONNECTION (literally just like a bridge) facilitated when one of your arms starts to contact his arm (or arms). Although getting "off the bridge" and just striking directly at targets will be done often - as the idea is not to chase hands but to hit hard targets.

And a leg against a leg can serve the same purpose - or even one (or both) of your arms/hands) against some part of one of his legs.

All these things can serve the same kiu (bridging) function.

So kiu sao, first and foremost, is a contact point CONCEPT that points a path one can take into his space and hard targets.

[chusauli]

Actually YKS WCK's 12 major keywords (Daap, Jeet, Chum, Biu, etc.) and Gu Lao WCK's keywords (Kuen, Kiu, Jeung, Bong, Jee) are all bridging concepts. As are my conceptual keywords.

The term Kiu Sao is used in virtually all Southern fist like Hung Gar, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Southern Mantis, Choy Lay Fut, etc. It refers to the distance from the fingers to the elbow in general, but can also relate to bridging the gap.

For example, Hung Gar has the 12 Kiu Sao: Gong, Yau, Bik, Jik, Fun, Ding, etc.
Bak Mei has Mor Kiu, Shui Kiu, Lan Yiu... Choy Lay Fut has Poon Kiu, Chuen Kiu, Pak Kiu, etc. Mantis has various Gwaat Siu, Mor Siu, etc. They are all ways to link up and join in with your opponent.

We have a saying, "Have bridge, cross bridge; no bridge, build a bridge."

Of course, various systems have their own definitions, but this is my understanding from Southern Fist and WCK.

[Phil Redmond]

Actually YKS WCK's 12 major keywords (Daap, Jeet, Chum, Biu, etc.) and Gu Lao WCK's keywords (Kuen, Kiu, Jeung, Bong, Jee) are all bridging concepts. As are my conceptual keywords.

The term Kiu Sao is used in virtually all Southern fist like Hung Gar, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Southern Mantis, Choy Lay Fut, etc. It refers to the distance from the fingers to the elbow in general, but can also relate to bridging the gap.

For example, Hung Gar has the 12 Kiu Sao: Gong, Yau, Bik, Jik, Fun, Ding, etc.
Bak Mei has Mor Kiu, Shui Kiu, Lan Yiu... Choy Lay Fut has Poon Kiu, Chuen Kiu, Pak Kiu, etc. Mantis has various Gwaat Siu, Mor Siu, etc. They are all ways to link up and join in with your opponent.

We have a saying, "Have bridge, cross bridge; no bridge, build a bridge."

Of course, various systems have their own definitions, but this is my understanding from Southern Fist and WCK.
You beat me to it Robert. I was going to say that the term "kiu sao" is used across the board in Southern Chinese arts. Anytime arm to arm or arm to leg contact is made a "bridge" is created.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, some people within the wing chun world also use the term "chi kiu" - which simply means "sticking" to the bridge...

(chi = sticking)....(kiu = bridge).

A sub category of KIU SAO, we could say.

A really simple example of such a maneuver (wherein contact is never lost because the strategy is to always stay attached)...would be the basic dan chi sao drill: the counter to the opponent's attempt to strike never loses limb-to-limb contact.

A very important CONTROL concept/principle - especially at a very close range. CHI KIU training can help teach how to completely eat up the most crucial SPACE between the two of you and provides great speed of response (TIME)...while also providing very important information about the amount/direction of the ENERGY one should use and that energy/force that one is up against.

It also helps AS A STARTING POINT in the training one needs in order to learn how to develop the ability to disrupt the opponent's balance.

[t_niehoff]

Perhaps someone can explain to me how all this kiu sao relates to charging in and chain punching your opponent?

[UKBBC]

remember the saying

loy lau, hoy sung, lut sau jit chung

if you are beyond contact distance, charge in with chain punches!!

:p

[t_niehoff]

remember the saying

loy lau, hoy sung, lut sau jit chung

if you are beyond contact distance, charge in with chain punches!!

:p

That's very funny. :)

[Vajramusti]

UKBBC
Registered User Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27

it's obvious

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remember the saying

loy lau, hoy sung, lut sau jit chung

if you are beyond contact distance, charge in with chain punches!!

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Obvious-No?
The comment is a misunderstanding of the kuit.

Context is everything- WSL is just showing some things to a student.

Over- inferring is a common problem in viewing clips.

Enjoy- as is.

joy chaudhuri

[UKBBC]

I was actually jesting :D

Having said that, if a 300lb person wanted to do it against a 150lb person, I bet it would work really really well...

[Ali. R]

I was actually jesting :D

Having said that, if a 300lb person wanted to do it against a 150lb person, I bet it would work really really well...


Size doesn’t make a difference, only the mentality… ;)


Ali Rahim.

[Vajramusti]

UKBBC
Registered User Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 28

I was actually jesting

Having said that, if a 300lb person wanted to do it against a 150lb person, I bet it would work really really well...
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((No problem with jesting. But if either person is interested in learning structure, timing, position
etc. using muscle power 300 lb or not-it will not help in learning wing chun.IMO ofcourse.
joy chaudhuri))

[monji112000]

Size doesn’t make a difference, only the mentality… ;)


Ali Rahim.

thats coming from someone of your size. Someone my size doesn't get that advantage. A stronger, faster, opponent is always going to have an edge. Thats why you must get a technique advantage. Sometimes you just are not lucky, and you must live with a disadvantage. A faster, stronger, more technical person...

[Ali. R]

thats coming from someone of your size. Someone my size doesn't get that advantage. A stronger, faster, opponent is always going to have an edge. Thats why you must get a technique advantage. Sometimes you just are not lucky, and you must live with a disadvantage. A faster, stronger, more technical person...


Are you a man, just like the man that will be attacking you? You have arms like him, you have legs like him and you have a mind like him… The only thing that stopping one is ones self (mentality), because one is unsure and or have lack of confidence, hence: self-made coward…


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

Are you a man, just like the man that will be attacking you? You have arms like him, you have legs like him and you have a mind like him… The only thing that stopping one is ones self (mentality), because one is unsure and or have lack of confidence, hence: self-made coward…


Ali Rahim.

again I don't believe all things are equal. Thats what I have found with experience. Knowing reality and knowing your limit is not being a coward in fact its logical. Have a bloated sense of reality, pretending that basic logical doesn't hold true in fighting (or anything else) is not only dumb but dangerous;).

[Ali. R]

again I don't believe all things are equal. Thats what I have found with experience. Knowing reality and knowing your limit is not being a coward in fact its logical. Have a bloated sense of reality, pretending that basic logical doesn't hold true in fighting (or anything else) is not only dumb but dangerous;).


Be serious guys it’s not that way all the time… how many times will you get caught up in a street fight when the guy is bigger then you by that much (200lb) and just decide to try you… For most of you guys the chances of getting in a street fight is like getting bit in the a$$ by a fire breathing dragon… Hell, for that matter, I know smaller guys that pick fights with big guys... :cool:


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

Be serious guys it’s not that way all the time… how many times will you get caught up in a street fight when the guy is bigger then you by that much (200lb) and just decide to try you… For most of you guys the chances of getting in a street fight is like getting bit in the a$$ by a fire breathing dragon… Hell, for that matter, I know smaller guys that pick fights with big guys... :cool:


Ali Rahim.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not saying little people fight big people all the time. I'm saying don't assume you have a natural advantage. Don't train, develop techniques, and think you will be stronger or faster or prepared ect.. You may always be those things, but its common sense to take the harder longer road. Again thats what I have found from experience. I personally have rarely seen a fight were two people look at each other and face off. Its normally been a few seconds into the fight that the person realizes whats going on.

[Ali. R]

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not saying little people fight big people all the time. I'm saying don't assume you have a natural advantage. Don't train, develop techniques, and think you will be stronger or faster or prepared ect.. You may always be those things, but its common sense to take the harder longer road. Again thats what I have found from experience. I personally have rarely seen a fight were two people look at each other and face off. Its normally been a few seconds into the fight that the person realizes whats going on.



HUMMM, Ok...

[LoneTiger108]

I know that this 'concept', if you want to call it that, is not limited to a 'bridge' between two people (hand2hand, leg2leg, leg2hand etc).

When you cross-arms (Sup Yee Sau) at the beginning of all your forms and use the push/pull pressure, this can also be referred to as a 'bridge hand'. Simply you are reinforcing your own strength by bridging your own hand, same as using the wusau to press against your extended arm to assist the punch.

A movement that portrays this is the Dai Lim Tao set of Gulo WCK, where the wusau is placed against the other arm whilst moving the familiar '3 prayers' set from SLT (hence why the set is referred to as the BIG idea).

A very feminine way to use the concept I know, but something to be considered too imho...

[VingDragon]

Kiu Sao -

"People are trying to put a lot of difficult meanings to a simple principles"

[chusauli]

Kiu Sao -

"People are trying to put a lot of difficult meanings to a simple principles"

Beautifully put!

Have bridge, cross; no bridge, strike.

[sihing]

Kiu Sao -

"People are trying to put a lot of difficult meanings to a simple principles"

Yeah, but isn't that the rule on Wing Chun internet forums "Make simple things more complicated, to make yourself look more intelligent, knowledgable, higher level, better, etc... to others", when in reality none of us give a damm:eek:

James

[Liddel]

Yeah, but isn't that the rule on Wing Chun internet forums "Make simple things more complicated, to make yourself look more intelligent, knowledgable, higher level, better, etc... to others", when in reality none of us give a damm:eek:
James

Thats certainly how i try to articulate my cognitive thought patterns from man to heaven then earth to internet. LOL

DREW

[VingDragon]

"Make simple things more complicated, to make yourself look more intelligent, knowledgable, higher level, better, etc... to others"

yes, its true but life and reality is simple, don't complicate it

I'm normal and rather stay away from the cultish doctrines :)

[sihing]

Hey Derek,

I totally agree with you, I was being monkey:)

[LoneTiger108]

Have bridge, cross; no bridge, strike.

Nice simple translation of a Kuen Kuit 'Hint & Tip'. I would hope that this isn't the only reference everybody has to Kiu Sau in their WCK...



Originally Posted by sihing
"Make simple things more complicated, to make yourself look more intelligent, knowledgable, higher level, better, etc... to others"

yes, its true but life and reality is simple, don't complicate it

I'm normal and rather stay away from the cultish doctrines

Honestly, if the translation of two characters seems so overly complicated and 'more intelligent' than all the theorizing about what we all think it is I can see why you even 'think' that Cultish doctrines exist!

Why are you training in Wing Chun? Those two characters themselves suggest written chants and perpetual new beginnings. Nothing cultish about that, nor secret as long as you put the time in to even 'accept' that this Martial Art we all discuss here was not invented by the English speaking world...

[VingDragon]

Spencer,
I'm sorry but I think I did not understand you well enough, :confused:

...and who told you I'm trening Wing Chun? :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have ideas of my own - but I'd like to hear what some of you think about how to use bridging (kiu) when dealing with wrestlers/grapplers who are either going for a direct shoot to the legs....or MORE OFTEN...after they've set it up with a high punch and then a shoot...or perhaps they're going for an attempt at a body clinch to a takedown, throw, or sweep...or they go for a clinch or a shoot as (or immediately after) you throw a punch.

Clearly the contact reflex skills learned in wing chun (through chi sao, through various kiu sao drills, ie.- and even bong/lop drills qualify as one example)...should help to stop/counter shoots and body clinches....along with punching, sticking, angling and sidestepping footwork, etc.

In other words - INTERCEPTING their arms/hands with a bridge (kiu) connection of some sort - along with less of a forward leg stance than what they're commonly used to seeing - so that you pick your spots more carefully about when to step in with a lead leg from a more squared stance to attack him.

This kind of bridging should create much bigger problems for the wrestler/grappler than if you're simply boxing (or kick boxing) for example - giving them a clearer path to follow (and more of a lead leg to isolate and shoot for) as they attempt to close in and grab you.

Not that I personally am downplaying the importance of being able to wrestle/grapple - including use of sprawls, cross faces, w h i z z e r s , and so on...

but I think real good kiu sao skills - and especially from ranges extending slightly longer than basic double arm chi sao range - can really help one's skills and effectiveness against the wrestler/grappler - in conjunction with some of the other crosstrained skills I just referred to.

Thoughts?

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,
I'm sorry but I think I did not understand you well enough, :confused:

...and who told you I'm trening Wing Chun? :rolleyes:

Sorry, I just presumed I suppose as you use a Ving prefix in your name! :o


but I think real good kiu sao skills - and especially from ranges extending slightly longer than basic double arm chi sao range - can really help one's skills and effectiveness against the wrestler/grappler - in conjunction with some of the other crosstrained skills I just referred to.

Thoughts?

I think this Kiu Sau term would really need to be re-thought imho!!! Obviously ranges come into play (long/short bridge etc) and the timing is all crucial to determine whether you have intercepted or just simply reacted.

What I'd tend to do is study the fighters approach and look for a suitable technique to minimize their chances of getting in control. From something a colleague has mentioned, once body contact is made and the pressure is on you may be better off looking into what Chi San (Sticky Body) concepts you know instead of your Kiu Sau, which has already been crossed and destroyed!

Much Snake type theory to be had in the clinch imho, but hey! I'm just yapping again...

[Ultimatewingchun]

"once body contact is made and the pressure is on you may be better off looking into what Chi San (Sticky Body) concepts you know instead of your Kiu Sau, which has already been crossed and destroyed." (LT)

***Once your opponent has crossed that bridge and gotten that close - it's time to wrestle/grapple first and foremost, it seems to me. And use your "kung fu" techniques as an adjunct rather than as your main source - either to get back to a striking range (ie.- elbows/knees/short range punches and palm strikes)...or to finish him while in the wrestling/grappling mode with a damaging throw, sweep, or submission.