Arizona Mantis

[djcetra]

I've asked this question before and then didn't have access to a computer for a while, I guess the post got cleaned off. Does anyone know where to find a good teacher/school for 7-Star Praying Mantis or another Mantis style in the Phoenix/Tempe area? If not, perhaps some advice how how I can start to learn on my own a little? Are videos garbage etc? Thanks!

[Three Harmonies]

Find a good teacher, do not worry about style or system. You will waste your time and money on trying to learn from a video.
Jake :cool:

[osprey3883]

Hello,
Mantis is pretty hard to pin down in the Valley, not many teachers.
Here is one school in the east valley-
http://martialarts.mysite.com/

If you decide to check out another style Wing Chun is worthwhile as well-
http://www.mengsofaz.com/

Good luck on your search,
Matt

[djcetra]

Hello,
Mantis is pretty hard to pin down in the Valley, not many teachers.
Here is one school in the east valley-
http://martialarts.mysite.com/

If you decide to check out another style Wing Chun is worthwhile as well-
http://www.mengsofaz.com/

Good luck on yuor search,
Matt

How similar is Wing Chun to Mantis? I've always been curious of it but mantis has always been my preference.

[Eric_H]

Hey djcetra,

I only know of one man who teaches Mantis in Arizona, and he does it as a closed door system (ie: you have to train with him for years before he'll let you do it).

As for wing chun, it's a mixed bag, there's a lot of different types of it out there. I train at the Wing Chun school osprey posted about, and we have a lot of kiu sao (bridge arm) drills and rib bone (Dip Gwat) training that are similar to some southern Mantis stuff I've seen. I'm also good friends with a teacher of a Hakka system here in town that has similarities to SPM. If you want his contact info or more info about any of the places I've mentioned please send me a pm.

[djcetra]

Hey djcetra,

I only know of one man who teaches Mantis in Arizona, and he does it as a closed door system (ie: you have to train with him for years before he'll let you do it).


What's the purpose of this :(

[Eric_H]

What's the purpose of this :(

Most teachers want some time to test you out before they show you what they really have, it's just a part of traditional kung fu culture.

Think about it this way: why would I give someone I don't know very well access to my best weapons?

However, if you are sincere about it, some teachers might let you start with some of their indoor stuff, it's all up to the teacher themselves. It never hurts to introduce yourself and ask. Unless they punch you :D ;)

[Three Harmonies]

So who is the mystery teacher Eric?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this attitude is exaclty the reason CMA are dying today! People are sooooo turned off by this BS attitude that they either quit martial arts all together, or head to a MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai gym to train. CMA teachers need to re-evaluate their stance on this issue if they want their arts to thrive, let alone survive IMO!

Jake :cool:

[EarthDragon]

In my opinon, not that anyones asking but bored at work so here it goes.

It took 5 years of asking yearly and learning from his student before I personally was accepted as a student from my teacher.... old fasion way of thinking??? perhaps not.

On one hand greed will be the downfall of CMA alot of us seem to think so...

however thier is a jewel there, a worthy lifelong goal to master these precious things handed down for centureis, so should we, you or them just give it away to the undeserving who might then tarnish this jewel????

You have to work hard be loyal and deserving to get a promotion or a raise, so why not deserving of knowledge?

Or shoudl it just be taught to any random attitude who can fork over a hundred bucks? there are losts of students I turn away and will not teach, but I will teach everthing I know to my long time students. is this wrong?

[djcetra]

While I understand that not every jerk who wants to beat people up on the street should be passed on any of this knowledge, I look at the reflection of myself and realize that I'm 28 years old and waiting 5 years for permission to learn digs right into my prime :confused:

[shaolin_allan]

No one has mentioned this yet but the school mentioned earlier named Green Mantis
Kung Fu teaches Southern style. There are two schools in Phoenix one being downtown that teach 7 Star Mantis, the other in Tempe which is the Chinese Shao-lin center http://www.shaolinarizona.com/ . The school I can vouch for is Eagar's Wushu Academy. Sifu Eagar is an advanced level instructor and teaches many different styles. Check out my profile for the web address to get his contact info, he is located in central Phoenix.

[Three Harmonies]

Eager is wushu, not traditional Mantis.

As for "giving stuff" away vs. "earning".......... the secret is in hard work (ED you should know that)! I can teach you many "secrets" but in the end you will not develope ****e' without hard, consistent training. Period. There are no secrets.

Jake

[shaolin_allan]

Eagar teaches wushu as well as traditional 7 star mantis.

[EarthDragon]

Three Harmonies,
true true that practice and hard work hence the word (gongfu) will get you to where you need to be, however an important part is WHAT you practice.
And this can only be taught from others whom are more experienced and knowledgeable than ourselves.

This is my point........... unfortunatly alot of the time these individulas are old schoolers, with old fashion chinese mentalities. So we are at thier mercy for knowledge and they dont just give it away we must earn it. While some people in todays society might think otherwise, this is still the case.

Hell microwaves cook food horribly, however it is the todays mentaltiy of quick results and gotta have it right away that keep making us cook dinners in 2 minutes even though we know the food tastes better cooked traditionally, but none will ever stop making ovens.............

PS one of the secrets in our system is the counters to the applications. But i can assure you my teacher as well as other teachers will be slow in showing me the counters to the counters, but hey i got a life long bank of information now that i havent mastered so i am not full pressed to get more........... just a couple pennies for ya all

[Three Harmonies]

Number one Eager is wushu. Period. Unless he has trained traditional stuff in the last 6 or so years since I have seen him. Sorry to burst any bubbles.

ED-
I guess I am just blessed with lucky juju to have found the exceptions to rules in this case. I tried to play the "oh master, I will prove my worthy-ness" game for many years, and the only thing I got was frustration, and wasting of time. To each their own.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[shaolin_allan]

Three Harmonies have you personally trained with Joseph Eagar? cause if not it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. I have seen his students perform intermediate level 7 star mantis traditional forms but I guess you're an expert on him.

[Three Harmonies]

Well yes I have bro. I cannot speak for his students. I cannot speak for anything other than my experience, conversations etc with him. He is wushu. When I trained with him he really did not know any app's at all. Nice flowery forms, but nothing behind them. Again perhaps he has picked up something since then.
Don't get your panties in a bunch because I call your teacher a wushu stylist, as I do not even consider it a bad thing. Take your little bull**** attitude elsewhere junior.

Jake :cool:

[shaolin_allan]

here is a video if his student performing tiger swallows http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X70PyKeQTDk which is a traditional intermediate 7 star mantis form. sifu eagar is not my teacher so don't get it confused why i'm defending him. I have noticed on these forums there are a lot of guys like you threeharmonies who think you're this top level practicioner and are an expert on subjects you're not. It's easy for you to talk smack on a forum and never show anything of what you practice yourself. Obviously for you to bring up talking bad about an instructor out of nowhere and for no reason shows you're the one with the bullsh** attitude. I am not a junior as i'm probably a lot older then you are, which by the way you sound is probably around 18 or younger. Eagar teaches internal arts completely not wushu related along with applications. So go back to your high school class your teacher is calling and keep your opinions on instructors you trained a week with or at college to yourself. I'm done with this thread so even if you reply you wont hear back from me, I don't feel like arguing with someone I don't know.

[Three Harmonies]

even better. Not your teacher. Never touched hands with him. Never spent a minute under him. Yet you argue something based on video off the net of his STUDENT doing a FORM!!??!!??!:eek: Jesus why do I bother....:rolleyes:
You can find me all over bro. A bit older than 18. Never proclaimed to be anything other than a student. Never bad mouthed Eager either. If me calling him wushu (which he is) is negative, that is your own opinion your are imposing on the conversation. I think Joe is actually quite good at what he does, wushu.
But what the hell do I know. I have only trained with the guy. You have seen a video of his student so..............:eek::rolleyes:
You would think someone much older than me would be more intelligent and have an understanding of how to carry a conversation. What one gets for assuming:rolleyes:

Jake :cool:

[shaolin_allan]

I meant i'm not a student of Joseph Eagar's currently. I train in another system with a different instructor now but I was a student of Joe's for quite a while. I have only based what I said from personal experience. The one good thing I will say threeharmonies is I checked out the website for your school and it looks good i'm glad you have a great place to train. I will agree to the extent that Eagar's main focus is contemp. wushu. That's not something i'm denying at all. good luck with life and your training ThreeHarmonies. Take care.

[yu shan]

I have to agree with these gentleman Jake. You come across extremely crass on many of your posts. Too bad for this mantis board if you chased these guys off, they sounded like fellows I`d like to hear from or help.

[shaolin_allan]

It's ok yu shan I have learned it is completely pointless to argue on these forums anyways. By the way your school site is one of the nicest mantis websites I have ever seen. I have not heard of Pong Lai Wu Ji Tang Lang Men before. Could you please share some details of the system with us as in comparison to other mantis systems?

[Three Harmonies]

"Number one Eager is wushu. Period. Unless he has trained traditional stuff in the last 6 or so years since I have seen him. Sorry to burst any bubbles."



Yu Shan- I look forward to you explaning what is crass about the above comment?

I am trying to help. If a guy wants traditional stuff, and he is going to a wushu stylist how is it crass to tell him otherwise? I bet you would not have the same attitude if someone wanted to train wushu and so they were going to check you out, and I told them that Pong Lai is traditional Mantis, would you:confused::o

Shaolin Allan -
So now you are telling me he is Wushu! Dude what is the deal? Why start an argument with me, and then tell me I am right?????? I never even said anything negative about Joe for christ sake! I don't get you guys on this board. If my opinions are not wanted, just say so. But why get on a forum, ask an opinion, berate a guy when he gives, then turn around and agree with him! In psychology that is considered a personality disorder. On KFO it is par for the course.

Jake :cool:

[shaolin_allan]

Dude do you even read what I post? I said Eagar's MAIN focus is contemp. wushu. It does not mean he doesn't teach traditional stuff as well. You give your opinions at times when they were never asked for, who asked for your opinion?. I am saying Eagar teaches traditional also, he teaches a mix. Do not put words in our mouths. We have already moved past this anyways apparently you can give opinions but can't seem to handle them from people like yu shan. I never started an argument with you, you were the one who began it. All I did was post some info on a couple schools and you began giving your opinions. Yes you did say bad things about Eagar,
"When I trained with him he really did not know any app's at all. Nice flowery forms, but nothing behind them." I would consider this bad. It doesn't matter anyways. I tried to end this on a good note with you but you seem to not be letting this go so i'm going to. Let's just move on to other forums and end this, it doesn't even matter anyways.

[Three Harmonies]

I believe on a public forum when someone asks "opinions" from others that we are all entitled to share our own personal opinions no? Sorry you feel I disrespected someone, but I stated my experience with Eager. Just because you do not agree/like it does not mean I cannot post it.
I certainly can handle opinions from anyone, hence me asking Yu Shan to explain his words. Simple.
This board has become so vaginized it is not even funny. A public forum where people can post opinions, as long as they concur with everyone elses :rolleyes: Sad.

[yu shan]

SA

Thank you for the props on the site, but I really need to give it some updates. My website takes a back seat to the more important aspects of my life. I have a family and a job, and I must take care of my Shifu. Part of taking care of my Shifu is mastering the material taught to me, it is expected of me. Ask your questions about our tanglang to my teacher.

Please visit: www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

Enjoy my Shifu site.

3 harm, try re-reading your posts, you have a lot of negative energy. I use to also, until my teacher beat it out of me. Now let`s look on the bright side of things. You have a great teacher Hu Xilin, be like your teacher, he is a wonderful humble man. BTW, why dont you ever speak of you teacher here? Master Hu is a good man, you should try and emulate him.

Jim

[Three Harmonies]

You can refer to me by my name Yu Shan, we know each other. Sorry if my negative energy is affecting all.
Jake

[yu shan]

Jake

I have my days, life is hard but good. I look at this life of mine as a dance, and I only get one chance at it. Jake you have a lot of qualities, as a teacher I think it is your responsibility to pass on these treasures you have learned. Try and help these younger brothers, you have good knowledge. Remember that old song from the 70`s... "dont worry, be happy". :cool:

Jim

[shaolin_allan]

You sound very wise yourself also yu shan i'm sure you'd make a good teacher as well. How long have you studied mantis for?

[Three Harmonies]

I do try. Just because I am honest does not mean anything negative. People only want to hear what they want to hear.
Still waiting to understand how my comments were so crass, and negative!?

Cheers
Jake :)

[shaolin_allan]

Jake we've already dropped the subject. It was dumb for us to start arguing in the first place. Let's just move on from here. It's not that people only want to hear what they like, it's how you give your opinion and when that can make it negative. There's lots of subjects on these forums we don't agree about. Yu Shan gave you some great compliments just accept them and move on and let it go. The subject is mantis kung fu from here on out.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

OK before we drop the subject I have something to say.... first off thank you Shaolin Allan for attempting to correct the falsehoods of Three Harmonies regarding Master Joseph Eagar.

Three Harmonies I know for a fact that you only studied with Joe for 3HRS --ONE TIME and for you to claim that ___
A___Master Eagar teaches wushu not traditional
B___That he has no applications based on a single 3 hr training session is just plain ignorant .

Your comments are hurtful and slanderous as they belittle a great teacher who for 30 more than years has shared his knowledge of Chinese Martial arts with the world.

#1......I have a tape of his from more than 10 years ago of mantis where at the end he breaks down all of the fighting applications. And I will post this on you tube with Joe's permission as soon as I can convert it.
#2......Doesn't teach traditional....ARE YOU NUTS! I have been training with him for more than 4 years and he knows and teaches more tradition forms, chi gung sets and training methods than any other instructor I know of in Arizona. I have forms in my Mizong yi system that are hundreds of years old. Oh and I know the applications of these moves btw.. Now I know we are talking Mantis here but to say he doesn't teach traditional is a blatant lie.

Don't get on these forums and discredit a great teacher based on a SINGLE lesson.
TRADITIONAL teachers didn't show students applications for a very very long time so if he didn't show you applications maybe its because he realized what kind of person you are and he decided you have not earned the right to learn these things---

Luckily people on this forum aren't dumb enough to believe anything you say about him anyways.

[Three Harmonies]

Well actually it was more than just once, but if you say so:rolleyes:
I was making reference to his Mantis. The mantis I was shown was Wushu bro. Period. As I stated previously and will again for those who cannot read, I have no clue about his other arts. Mantis is all I ever saw him do.
Do I know you? I love it when people tell me they know EXACTLY what and how long, and etc. about me! Post a name dude, quit hiding behind a computer.
Jake

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Im not trying to start a fight a with you but I know you trained with him at Li Gen Hengs one time for about 3 hours if there were other times then tell me where and when?

The comment you made" "Number one Eager is wushu. Period. Unless he has trained traditional stuff in the last 6 or so years since I have seen him. Sorry to burst any bubbles.

"Last 6 years? Dude---Did you try asking him to teach you a more tradition form or system like 7stars?....HMMMMMMMMM? ---You get on here trying to sway someone from a teacher who could really help them grow as a martial artist base on what you ASSUME you know about him.

The fact is is that all Sifu Eagar SHOWED you was "wushu" that doesn't mean he doesn't teach other mantis forms and he most certainly knows and teaches application and if you are still not convinced next time your down in Phoenix stop by 3rd st and Mariposa and He'd be glad to demonstrate then for you. You make it sound like he's all about contemporary wushu ie.....compulsory routines etc....this is very far from the truth perhaps Dynamic Wushu -Kenny Perrez (one of his teachers)-and his students are who you are thinking of. They do more Wushu then traditional.

And to answer you Im not hiding and no I don't know you personally. My name is Jason if you are in Phoenix again please stop by our school and Master Eagar will be more than happy to demonstrate TRADITIONAL MANTIS applications for you.
If you didnt want all this backlash you could have said this instead

---


" All of the forms I learned from Master Eagar were wushu mantis forms. He did not show me any traditional forms or applications."

Thats the facts not your assumptions.

[Three Harmonies]

Well Jason, I guess you don't "know" much then, because I have not been around Mr. Eager in over 6 years, so obviously you were not there..... but anyhoo.
We are on a Mantis forum, about Mantis in Arizona, so sorry for presuming we were talking about Mr. Eager's Mantis. I stated my experience and observations. Sorry you do not like them. But again, you weren't there.
If you prefer I can write the sentence you have so nicely provided (minus the master part) if it makes you feel better.
Thank you also for the invite. I doubt I will be back in Phoenix for anything, but if ever I am I have many better things to do kid. No need to get all ruffled. I stated my experience with Mr. Eager. I even said he is good at what he does. If he is the "master" you claim he is I am sure he is comfortable moving on in life regardless of my opinion of him (which is good).
Cheers
Jake

[mantid1]

I think three was saying that he didnt know the guy taught traditional mantis...from his experience. Probably didnt mean any harm...his communication skills may be a bit lacking. It is also easy to take things the wrong way on a forum.

I would like to see some video footage of someone fighting using authentic tang lang. Not drills, or slapping around. Something in a Muay Thai, Lei Tei or mma format....where you have to use your skills or you will be hurt. I havnt seen any posted on a forum or anywhere else. At least nothing I would say would make it stand out as mantis.

I guess my point would be what does it matter if apps are taught if the the instructor has never tested his skills? once again not with drills or safe sparring scenarios. If they did where they using something that was mantis?

So If I say someone isnt teaching the real deal I should be able to produce video of myself fighting the real deal demonstrating what mantis is. If I cant then I am probably dancing around like everyone else. But really think you are doing it because we can talk apps.

The reason the muay thai and bjj guys get respect is because they go in there and fight using there methods over and over again. The proof is their for everyone to see. Its not the case with mantis.

If I produced a vid of myself fighting most would not recognize it as 100% tang lang. I have to say at this point in my life it would not be pretty:)

So, I am trying not to be judgmental on other people or styles...because I feel I fall short myself.

[shaolin_allan]

Mantid1 you make some excellent points. Everyone always discusses the effectiveness of mantis. There are an endless number of books and videos, but seeing actual use in real combat is rare to none. Most people who fight would not use pure mantis. If you notice on any fighting or sparring videos, they almost always resort to basic kick boxing or karate type fighting.

[mantid1]

I will go out on a limb and say the I enjoy learning and practicing mantis much more than the other styles I have studied. There is alot to it....all of the drills...theory...philosophy...weapons..etc. All of this extra "stuff" is why I enjoy it. I do it because I enjoy it.

I think all of this extra "stuff" in mantis may be like a bunch of extra options on a new car....you really dont need them to get the job done....it justs makes it more fun getting there!

It shouldnt take long to become an effective fighter to defend yourself on a basic level against a real challenge.....maybe six months depending on the person. But it would get fairly boring after that.

Still waiting for some real mantis fighting vids...I want to see how it is done by the mantis boxers!

[Three Harmonies]

Mantid 1
Perhaps we are in agreement for the first time;)
My fighting certainly does not "look" like Mantis. A culmination of the past 17 years of martial arts. Certain principles and theories from Mantis are very common and prevelant, but overall I agree with your car analogy. Not needed, just extra.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[mantid1]

I dont think I disagree on many things. In fact I think I would agree 99% with you on what is important when it comes to fighting.

Art and combat may seem similar when training in a martial arts school....if the students never have actual combat using some of the types of fights I mentioned above. I believe this is where the misconceptions about traditional martial arts come into play.

There is nothing wrong with studying or teaching a traditinal art and it can help in certain self defense situations. But, the instructor should know his/her limitations when it comes to actual combat and not mislead students.

I was fortunate enough to start out in a style that taught grappling, a little ground fighting, kicking, punching chi na from the beginning. But even then we didnt get each other down and pound them in the face like the mma guys do today. I doubt I would like that much....being I would probably have been the guy getting pounded:)

[Three Harmonies]

Excellent points!
Jake :cool:

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Well Jake
I appreciate your feedback and like I said feel free to stop by next time you are in town for whatever.:)
---All Im trying to say is this.---

MASTER Eagar does teach traditional and wushu Mantis as well as applications.

Your experience doesn't reflect that and thus It should be made clear to people
looking for a good mantis teacher in Arizona/Phoenix.

BTW
I hardly think 29 makes me a "kid" but I don't doubt that you are much older than me judging by the pictures of you I have seen on the web. Id guess 37/38?

Oh and I am not the only one who thinks he is a master- As a 25+ year practitioner of Chinese martial arts His teachers rank him a 5th degree black sash -if we need to get technical . Some of his many teachers are Master Kenny Perrez, and Kwan Sai Hung, --So yeah Master would actually be a more appropriate title.

But I digress I am not trying to make war with you Jake. He is my teacher so DUH I got offended. If you weren't trying to bad mouth him it sure seemed like it to me.So I guess my mistake and I apologize if I said anything that offended you.I think we should all be brothers in wushu (and by wushu I mean all of the Chinese Martial Arts-) .Lets end all of this though and focus on the subject of mantis--:D

OK to make one point on the topic of fighting--I punch or a kick are just that so in a fight a mantis fighter may use techniques that are universal and not mantis -per say-but the majority of techniques and movements should be relevant to the system.Still I don't think that you should avoid a good chin-na or something if the situation comes up just because its not specifically a part of your"style" Plus some moves in a form are considerably less flashy in application than in the form.

[shirkers1]

Oh boy oh boy I am so glad I don't check in like I used to.. lol But I'm bored today so I'll respond..

Jake my friend, I chuckled reading this thread. I miss the banter.. lol

I've been here in northern phoenix for 10 years now and I've searched for ANY quality mantis and I'm sorry to say there is nothing of value here period. Unless some cat is hiding away in a basement or garage I should say since we don't have basements here, there is nothing I would dedicate my time to. That includes the schools posted already. Does that mean they suck? No.. just means what they had to offer wasn't what I was looking for in my personal training.

Now let me say that by "value" and the value in what I'm looking for is that I mean a person who teaches mantis with the mindset of using it for combat. I don't care about attending tournys, doing wushu forms for show, I'm all about practical use. Plenty of two man and applications.

I know you guys don't know me and you obviously don't know jake and his background in combat either. Or you wouldn't be so turned off by what he has said so far. Because if you rolled or played with him you would be ashamed at the training you've had to date. I being a research hound would question what he has said and figure out why he says what he says. There are tons of "material" out there on Jake and the people he trains with, just look for yourself, and if you get the chance attend one of his seminars he holds for the community all over the world.

The bottom line is whether you want to or not you have to get out there and check out some schools or people that train and see if what they have going on is up your alley or not. Figure out what you want in the training, how, what and why. If you can't find it in the mantis that is here then maybe you'll find that training with another school. Styles mean nothing anymore unless you want to be a forms collector and are a purist. Hell even our mantis school had bits of other deals thrown in the mix to help round it out as a fighting system.

Wish I hadn't retired from all the bs or I'd offer to train with you, or at least let you see something that is way different than what you'll see out here mantis content wise... At one point all I wanted was dedicated individuals to train with that had the desire to better themselves with their training, and training was free. But that is a hard thing to come by nowadays I guess.

I left the spotlight frankly because it boils down to being sick and tired of political garbage in the MA world. From moorons challanging me in my own home only to be put in their place leading to really nothing but me looking over my shoulder wondering if some butt hurt cat is going to throw a brick through my car window because I peeled his cap, to internet tigers running their mouths online it just gets old. I hope you guys find the training you need out here and that your search is rewarded with quality MA.

Jake if you make it out to AZ you best be looking me up. :)

[shaolin_allan]

Shirkers have you checked out Stuart Olson's school in Phoenix?

[shirkers1]

yes like I said, nothing I saw here was close to the training I had in ohio or what I looked for to further my training beyond what I had. The school in question seemed like the mantis was very minimal and basic. Also it was a different style of mantis than I had a background in and it wasn't for me.

Nothing against anyone and their training, it's all about how their training suits me and like I said none of it suited me. All I can say man is for you to go check it out yourself, it may be a perfect fit for you. Just because I or some other cat say they don't like it means squat, you have to check it out for yourself and feel what they have to offer. If it makes sense go with it. We can all recommend who we think has quality stuff, but it boils down to what you think.

[Three Harmonies]

Whats up brother? How is the AZ treating you? Thought you were making it my way sometime? I will certainly call when I head down yonder.
I really appreciate the kind words, but they are wasted here on KFO. Too many trolls, too much silliness. I try to help, and this is the thanks I get. I too have been really turned off by the BS within the CMA community. Sorry to hear it has turned you off so much, but I totally UNDERSTAND!!

No Surrender-
Think as you wish bro. I was trying to offer some help to a cat who was searching. I have to admit it is rather funny that the references you use to prove Eager is not contemp. wushu, are, well........ wushu guys! :rolleyes::eek: But hey, to each their own.
As for the "master" title.... again...to each their own. It has to be the most overused, non-meaningful, self en-titled word out there in the martial world. The best people I have ever met with INSISTED I do not use a title with them. Coincidentally some of the worst I have met (no reflection on those in this thread) have INSISTED I use a title such as Sifu/Master/GM etc. I suppose if it helps with his ego and business so be it. The Chinese always laugh when they see a white guy in a Chinese outfit proclaiming "master"-dom! :D I guess I should too!

Shirkers brings up great points. One guy may hate one teacher, yet that teacher may be a perfect fit for the next. To each their own.

Oh, and it is very, VERY, questionable if Olsen actually learned any Mantis from his teacher. No one ever heard of him training it until after his teacher passed, then stuart came out with a book on Babu tanglang. I will never judge a man I have not seen, but if the book is any indicator...:o

Jake :cool:

[shirkers1]

AZ is great.. :) I'm playing music again so I'm pretty busy with that, so that is the reason I haven't made my way up north yet. Kind of hard to get out of town when you're playing regularly.

Totally agree with the "master" titles etc point you made.

[Three Harmonies]

Gald to hear things are well my friend.
Cheers
Jake :D

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Jake, Jake Jake.......

First off I'd like to say that I actually agree with about the master thing...It gets tossed around the martial arts world like a red headed step child and most folks who go by it don't deserve the title and often a total sham.
However...
Joe is last person in the world who would demand or expect anyone to call him master. I am using the term as a matter of respect for him which you don't appear to have. To me he is sifu...lots of people just call him Joe. A humbler person I have yet to meet.

Unless 7star mantis suddenly became A "WUSHU" style then your wrong. Thats it plain and simple.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit you made a mistake.

I too am trying to help this wayward poster find a teacher and you provided them with misinformation based on your experience.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Oh and by the way Kwan Sai Hung a.k.a. the wandering taoist" is hardly a "wushu" guy....

[Yao Sing]

Ok, the youtube clip - nice movement but looked to me like a performance (lacking intent). IMHO it had the earmarks of someone doing the moves without knowing the application.

Believe me I'm intimately familiar with students performing moves they "copied" and don't know what they're actually doing. Again, just my opinion.

Yeah, I got tired of the crap and posturing and totally delusional drivel that passes for discussion here. Also, lost interest in the CMA world in general and even threatened to go back to Yoga.

Jake, you're a bit rough sometimes (yep, I do that myself too) and it's confrontational when you start off that way. Being a straight talker can be both good and bad at times.

But on the other hand you have red flag comments like "you have to train with him for years before he'll let you do it". So what the heck do you train for years while waiting to get "the goods"? Does anyone else see the dishonesty here?

Another red flag - "an advanced level instructor and teaches many different styles". I've yet to hear anyone claim their teacher to be a low or mid level instructor and we all know the saying "jack of all trades, master of none".

So while Jake was a bit harsh in his "introduction" to you guys he does have a point that all of us who've been around CMA for a good number of years are well aware of and tired of seeing and hearing.

Props to you guys to being levelheaded and not escalating this to the usual flame war. You guys are class acts in my book.

[shirkers1]

Actually yes 7 star has become a wushu style.. that is the sad part. There are very few individuals who actually train combat mantis any more. Jakes teacher being one of them, although not 7 star their stuff is very good. Once again, there are individuals on this board.. well used to be on this board who have been around the block a few times and have mucho information that you might be able to learn from. By your profile it says you've only been training for 4 years? Sit back, listen and learn. Instead of verbal sparring maybe you could look into the info that others speak of, you might learn something new. Might save you some money as well, because if you think you are training quality combat mantis here in phoenix you are wrong...

yao sing is on point as well, red flags ALL OVER the place.

live and learn I guess... :rolleyes:

[No_SuRReNDeR]

OK shirkers1,
I see your point and appreciate that as I feel it is a valid and rational response.
I am not trying to start a war with your friend Jake,I understand that he is very interested in combat mantis and teachers that teach this.
And in all fairness, Joe is a diverse teacher and our school is not a "mantis" school. His focus as a teacher leans towards northern shaolin styles and systems. Although he does teach Mantis, and many other styles and systems.
I consider myself a traditional martial artist and focus mainly on Mizong Yi. Although I do study and practice other styles.
But I dont disagree with Jake about learning applications and understanding your art as a fighting system. I personally am less concerned with forms and more concerned with learning techniques, tactics and strategies that pretain to my art.

As for the clip on you tube-Thats Shannon,(keep in mind that people are nervous at demos and often screw up their forms and their techniques) and also Shannon isn't very serious about learning Mantis and its applications her main focus is on snake from the Shaolin five animals system although currently she has been working on Nan Chuan.

Now here is the thing Joe doesn't teach forms and neglect techniques. I have NEVER seen him show us a move in a form(obvious stuff excluded)and not go into detail about it's many uses and variations in combat. Usually I wind up being the dummy for these demonstrations so believe me . He does teach applications and techniques as a fighting art. So if I was learning "Mantis " from him ...I firmly believe It would be "quality"
I cant imaging that you do kung fu in Phoenix and don't know or haven't met Joseph Eagar . I encourage you to Please come by our class and jump in with us whenever you can I would be very interested in meeting you.

http://www.eagarwushu.co.nr/

-My name is Jason - Btw

[shirkers1]

:) Jake can come across crass, but hell so can I.. :) in the end both of us are pretty laid back individuals and easy to get along with. But with that said Jake has been around the block, trained with many MA'st around the world and has a good base to decide what is good and what isn't.

I've visited the school a while back and like I said, and I'm not to put anyone down. But compared to the training I was used to it wasn't for me. I stand by the statement that unless there is some cat training out of his house somewhere that I don't know about there are no quality "combat" mantis schools here. Time and money is hard to come by nowadays so the training has to be worth it.

[mantid1]

I dont think that ONLY being around for four years should mean anything....as far as the fighting goes that is.

I think the old school guys who pretend that you need to be around for over four years before you have the "goods" are as misleading as the wushu guys.

If a student seriously wants to learn to fight and is willing to train hard there is no reason that they should not be able to handle themselves in a self defense situation or full contact sparring within the first three to four months.

A student should be to be a fairly high level of fighting before the end of their first year of training. If they cant they are not trying hard enough, the insturctor isnt giving them the tools they need or they are not genetically cut out for it.

I dont have a problem with the old school arts...in fact I like them and prefer them now that im old. But, the old school people have to be as honest with themselves as the wushu guys should be. If your students arent fighting they are learning an art...not a method of fighting.

[shirkers1]

I dont think that ONLY being around for four years should mean anything....as far as the fighting goes that is.

I think the old school guys who pretend that you need to be around for over four years before you have the "goods" are as misleading as the wushu guys.

If a student seriously wants to learn to fight and is willing to train hard there is no reason that they should not be able to handle themselves in a self defense situation or full contact sparring within the first three to four months.

A student should be to be a fairly high level of fighting before the end of their first year of training. If they cant they are not trying hard enough, the insturctor isnt giving them the tools they need or they are not genetically cut out for it.

I dont have a problem with the old school arts...in fact I like them and prefer them now that im old. But, the old school people have to be as honest with themselves as the wushu guys should be. If your students arent fighting they are learning an art...not a method of fighting.

no surrender was questioning Jakes knowledge on his teacher here in phoenix, political awareness, what is "real" mantis, etc. That is where the 4 years comes in to play. The longer you're in this game the more you are witness to the garbage that happens in the MA world, or traditional MA world that is. Part of which is what you state about "old school people"...

Agree with your comment on fighting and old school teachers being honest with themselves.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

"no surrender was questioning Jakes knowledge on his teacher here in phoenix, political awareness, what is "real" mantis, etc. That is where the 4 years comes in to play. The longer you're in this game the more you are witness to the garbage that happens in the MA world, or traditional MA world that is. Part of which is what you state about "old school people"...

Actually I really don't doubt or question Jake as a martial artist. I know he's been around and trained with many amazing martial artists and yeah 4 years is not a lifetime I wish I found my love for CMA sooner.I think I sorta understand Jakes perspective a bit more now that we've had this debate. However even the wisest man can make a mistake now and then and it is my belief that when it comes to his opinion about what Joe teaches and knows, he has made a mistake. On this point I think We need to just agree to disagree.

Also heres the thing I dont get so please explain...:confused:

"Wushu" mantis as in...the sport form of mantis -(I am sick of the word Wushu being used to represent the sport forms btw.) Had to have been created by mantis practitioners then modified to showcase athletic abilities of the performer.
Now obviously most of the movements are still martial in nature so how does that make them invalid?....
It's not like the "wushu" longfist which has blatantly non martial techniques like that back leg strecth over the head thing....or landing in a splits after a jumping cresent kick.

I realize that the wushu forms may mean the practitioner is NOT doing all of the other fundamental traditional trainig...like chi gung sets, strength training and sparring but does that somehow mean the moves and techniques are no longer martial?
I am not being sarcastic i really don't understand why "wushu" Mantis is a derogatory term in this regard.

[Three Harmonies]

Wow! I am popular these days;)
Look, in the end everyone can make their own decision. NS - you are really, REALLY, concerned with getting something here, so wha is it? An apology? I will not apologize for my EXPERIENCE. My experience with Joe Eager was obviously different than yours. I respect that, and frankly am happy with that. You want to prove me wrong (which again, how is an experience wrong??), but you do so by stating that Joes teachers are not wushu (a whole different argument unto itself). Yet none of the Mantis teachers you list are traditional stylists under anyone doing traditional Mantis. That is even beside the point, I digress....
Anyhoo.... Anyone with any common sense will go, check out a class, and see for themselves what they like. No one should take my word, Shirkers, or yours on this board. Experience is the best way. That being said, Shirkers and my experiences were not what we consider traditional, combatively trained mantis. You cannot discount our experiences. Perhaps Joe did not show us the "real" deal. I don't know. Don't care anymore.
I never meant to derail, nor put down anyone. I was sharing my experience. Like Shirkers mentioned I have had the privlege to train with many, many, top teachers in the arts over the last 17 years. Many are amazingly nice, good, top quality people. Many are not. A few should not be allowed around anyone else. I will continue to share my opinions, experiences, and thoughts as they are asked for (and when they are not as well). I am not mean, nor care to hurt anyone. But I am tired, so frickin' tired, of the BS in martial arts in general, but especially what is common place in CMA! The arts deserve better than what they are getting from the people who supposedly love them dearly! I am going to do my small, little part to help clean up the image and represent true Chinese Martial Arts as they have been taught to me.
Sorry if you do not like it, but that is me. I wear my heart on my sleeve, and tell things the way they are. IMO we need more people like that in this world, and running this country. ***** footing around has done nothing for the human race, let alone the male species. Have some balls guys, the majority of us are males here, HTFU!

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Look ,
I agree with you 100% about experience. People should judge for themselves. Never believe something just because someone says it's so, be assertive and check into it yourself. I know you don't have anything against Joe I read djectra's first thread and you were the one who brought him up and you mentioned he was a
nice man. I think we are all arguing over symantics here and it's really pointless.

I know you have an extensive history of Mantis and clearly you have more experience and knowledge on the subject than me. As I have stated before I am mainly focused on MizongYi and Northern Shaolin styles.-

:confused::confused::confused:
I guess what I don't understand about this whole mess is what the major differences are between the sport Mantis and traditional"combat"Mantis and how the techniques very so much since both are based on the same principles.

Jake could you please explain these difference to me? -

I really want to know what your experience is with both and would like to know
how they differ and how they are the same.

Perhaps we can start a new thread and discuss Wushu vs Traditional Mantis.

I am sorry if I have been a jerk with my responses to you, but I love and respect my Sifu and I get defensive for obvious reasons. I offer an appology to you.

[Three Harmonies]

No worries bro.

Basically you have two schools... those who train realistically (offer various levels of non-cooperative sparring, grappling, etc.), and those who practice lots of forms, rarely hit anything, have no grappling practice, and who give BS excuses like "Our style is too dangerous to practice on humans...." when asked if they want to spar.
So I do not care to classify something by a title, but rather offer the simplistic answer of those who practice/train realistically, those who do not. Not to say all schools don't have there place. Surely they do. I just get frustrated when people (teachers) mis-represent themselves, the art, and their students! If someone does not teach combatives in his school that is fine, but don't dare tell your students BS stories like "It will naturally come out in a real fight from the form" "Only use your techniques if your life is in danger because they are too deadly" etc. etc. (both of which I have heard come out of the mouths of very prominent teachers!!). That is a dis-service to the community at large, the art as a whole, and the student individual!

Hope that helps.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[B.Tunks]

NS

Wushu is a word used since pre-PRC but officially adopted by the government of PRC to describe all martial arts (sporting and otherwise). Regardless of the bad taste it leaves in many overseas Chinese people's mouths (due to it's communist connotations), it is only a name. No different to gongfu/kungfu, which is more popularly used to describe 'traditional' Chinese martial arts. What is widely known as gongfu throughout the Chinese diaspora is known in PRC today as chuantong wushu- traditional martial arts. Sports/performance/modern wushu is a different thing. Not everything known as wushu is sports wushu. Regardless, as Jake said, anything entirely based on the practice of forms and void of all fighting/self defence aspects and training methodology is neither gongfu nor chuantong wushu. This does not mean that many CMA that are known as 'traditional' are any value in teaching the above.

When people in the West (particularly America it seems) say 'wushu mantis', they are generally referring to the modern, competition Tanglang routine developed by Yu Hai and it's many derivatives. Of course there are now many more versions designed entirely for competition that actually closely resemble 'traditional' tanglang but these have not yet been widely exposed outside of China. On top of that, there are also many who are of the opinion that any and all TLQ that comes out of PRC post 1940's is 'modern wushu'. Regardless, the sports routines I initially mentioned contain almost no applicable techniques, particularly after the first generation- largely because application was not taught (in fact officially forbidden). Yu Hai did train extensively in classical Tanglang and did include a number of combinations from classical TLQ (extracted from Tou Tao among other routines) but exaggerated these considerably to enhance their appearance. Anyone who tries to teach 'seriously' teach the fighting applications for the majority of movements found in modern wushu (beyond simple and true techniques such as thrust punching, treading kicks etc) is kidding themselves. By the same token, many who teach 'traditional' martial arts and do teach many fighting techniques and applications are also kidding themselves. As an interesting aside, i have met many modern wushu athletes in China and elsewhere who can dish out a severe beating if required (not to mention the fact that many also train and fight sanshou at some stage). A coordinated, fit, fast, determined opponent with even half a brain is a threat, regardless of if he trained in ballet or vale tudo.

BT

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Wow thanks for the info Jake and B.Tunks.

Jake- I think I understand what you meant by a
by "traditional" a little more now.
I usually think of forms themselves as traditional when they haven't been changed or modified to meet a sport level standard. I wasn't taking into account training methods vs knowing the applications of the forms.
Thanks



B.Tunks- Thank you for that great history info, I didn't know who created the wushu mantis forms and that was really great info.
As far as the world---- wushu-
- I hate the derogatory connotation of the word because
I have always been under the impression that word actually translates as "martial art" or "kingdom art" or even "the art of stopping a fight". If you look at the characters for "wu" It looks quite like a stake driven into the ground there is a line where the ground is and above is the a line connected to this stake representing perhaps a horse trying to run <---> left or right but it cant because of the stake.----To Stop--- The other character looks like a guy swinging a stick or sword.--A Fight--

Wushu if looked at like this is the art(shu) of stopping a fight as quickly as possible. Of course the quickest way to stop a fight is to not have a fight. Avoid it and make it a last resort.
But if you have to fight you should disable your opponent as quickly as possible.

Just wanted to know what you think of about that interpretation of the word.
-Thanks again.

[Three Harmonies]

Wushu unto itself means martial art. But the connotation is totally different here in the west, and I imagine in the east as well since the advent of modern Wushu. Again semantics.
I understand your frustration. It is something we all have to deal with. In a perfect world each and every teacher would be honest with his/her students and most importantly with themselves! I know a wushu teacher back in NM who claims she does "real" this and that. They spend one week a month going over techniques from there endless list of forms. No sparring mind you. Just going over some techniques in an hour long class (if that long. I want to say it was a 45 minute class!!)!
I wanted to host my teacher Tim one time at their school (rent space from her). She went to Tim's site where he mentions that modern wushu has no combative training in it. She went through the roof! Would not have anything to do with us because "that is clearly not true of all wushu stylists, and I do not want my students getting confused..." which loosely translates in Jakeese as: "My students will see that I am teaching them **** when a quality instrcutor rolls through, there fore I will have nothing to do with this in order to save face, and money in my pocket."
From that point on she would not even advertise when Tim came into town!

Anyhoo... my point is, we all have ego's, and that is not a bad thing. But are you controlling your ego, or is it riding you? Just gotta be honest. I am not a MMA fighter! I do not train like they do, nor at the intensity they do. I would never call myself a MMA fighter for that reason alone! I spar. I train hard. I share that with my students. But in the end I have different goals and training methods than someone gearing up for a MMA bout. IS one better than the other? No. Just different intent's. A lot of people live in fantasy worlds where they are not this honest with themselves, let alone their students! THAT is the crying shame!!

Hope this helps,
Jake :cool:

[mantis108]

the Word "Wu" actually means to use a weapon called "Ge" to stop. This is then interpreted by some to say stopping force, in which case they omit the mentioning of using of weapon. Ge usually used in conjunction with a shield called Gan; hence, the term Gan Ge, is an ancient weapon said to have been invented by Xia Dynasty (2033 - 1562 BCE) Emperor Qi. It is a lance like weapon with a metal tip, usually bronze, that is in a bit of a T shape, which gives the weapon the ability to either function as a pike or grappling hook. This weapon is wildly used on the battlefield because of the use of chariots in ancient times. When the Chariots are no longer a standard in warfare by the end of Qin dynasty (221 - 206 BCE) , the Ge are also retired with it.

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Learn something new everyday! Thanks!
So do most Chinese think of that when using "Wu" or has Wu become the standard for martial? Know what I mean?
Thanks
Jake :D

[BeiTangLang]

Members actually having open-mided discourse without the flames,...I love you guys! LOL!

Seiously, I appreciate everyones conduct & the information shared.

Best wishes to all, (as always)
~BTL

[Three Harmonies]

Where you been slim shady?? Long time no hear! We need a Mantis Beer gathering is what we need. Screw the training, lets work our Iron Liver Qigong:D

[Yao Sing]

Speaking of, what happened to the "yearly" Mantis gathering? Guess I need to light a fire under Steve's butt again.

[yu shan]

I truthfully thought after Ohio that we would indeed see an annual gathering, it was a great start. Hopefully MQ can get things together plan another and keep them coming. Yao, are you going to be the Wah Lum rep? No one showed up to represent in Ohio, does not surprise me though. WL sort of stays in there little click. If you want to light a fire, why dont you show up?