Nandu, ie- the concept of difficulty...

[MightyB]

Nandu is a controversial issue in the Wushu community- I'm not going to go into too many details (most of it regards the need of very expensive special flooring and an unfair advantage given to the Chinese), but, in it's simplest terms, it's adding points for degrees of difficulty when scoring forms.

As a concept- I think this is good. As a matter of fact- I think it's something that the TCMA community should adopt. You know- go big or go home.

Now if we started changing traditional forms to make them more difficult- we'd get wushu- so we can't do that, but we can look to find the most difficult and eye appealing traditional forms from our various styles. We could assign difficulty levels to those forms- and standardize them- so... what could those forms be? For example, I know that Wah Lum, Shaolin, Jow Ga, and Eagle Claw all have cool, expressive, and explosive forms... what could be a set of "standardized" traditional forms that we could use with this concept?

[MasterKiller]

This thread fails.

Why should I go learn a new form outside my system just because some judge doesn't think it's flashy enough?

Traditional judges should judge on traditional criteria. Period.

[Mook Jong]

Isn't the root of TCMA people modifying forms and styles to suit their own needs, not simply conforming to what they'v been showed?

[MightyB]

Isn't the root of TCMA people modifying forms and styles to suit their own needs, not simply conforming to what they'v been showed?

What forum are you reading?

[MightyB]

This thread fails.

Why should I go learn a new form outside my system just because some judge doesn't think it's flashy enough?

Traditional judges should judge on traditional criteria. Period.

To grow...

[MasterKiller]

To grow...

Growing sideways isn't the same as growing tall. What you propose is just more bloat and dilution of traditional systems.

[mantis108]

To grow...

How So?

Mantis108

[MightyB]

How So?

Mantis108


One of the greatest martial artists I'll ever have the pleasure to know, Chung Ho Yin, was able to be humble enough to learn Eagle Claw after he was already a renowned Sifu of 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu. The essence of life, of growth, is to always be a student.

You can't think you know everything- it's self limiting. Always seek out those with skill so that you can continue to learn. This is the essence of growth- of being a martial artist.

---

Or you can stay in your own little box in your own little world...

[MightyB]

Growing sideways isn't the same as growing tall. What you propose is just more bloat and dilution of traditional systems.

Didn't you seek out Coach Ross to grow in your application of San Shou?

[WinterPalm]

Growth is good. I've often told people that once you are good at one style, say black belt or a good 5 years in. Go get a white belt and start something new. It will humble you and that is what I did with Judo and later on in life hopefully I will don another white belt and get my azz handed to me and learn something.

But to change a form so that it is better for judging criteria, solely on aesthetics, is not growth in my opinion.
Doing a solid kung fu form properly with all the mechanics and alignment, power generation, etc, is as difficult if not more so than doing flashy spinning cartwheels and handstands.

Do we grow to impress judges? Or grow to further our combative skills?

That is one reason I've never, and probably never will be interested in forms competition...if you've done the form and learned the lessons it has to teach you, the proof is in the pudding...and that is in the ring.

[MasterKiller]

One of the greatest martial artists I'll ever have the pleasure to know, Chung Ho Yin, was able to be humble enough to learn Eagle Claw after he was already a renowned Sifu of 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu. The essence of life, of growth, is to always be a student.

You can't think you know everything- it's self limiting. Always seek out those with skill so that you can continue to learn. This is the essence of growth- of being a martial artist.

---

Or you can stay in your own little box in your own little world...

What does that have to do with making everyone conform to a competition standard for the sake of competition?

[MightyB]

[QUOTE=WinterPalm;843941]
But to change a form so that it is better for judging criteria, solely on aesthetics, is not growth in my opinion.
Doing a solid kung fu form properly with all the mechanics and alignment, power generation, etc, is as difficult if not more so than doing flashy spinning cartwheels and handstands.
QUOTE]

See- I'm not talking about changing the forms- I'm saying that we find a couple of traditional forms that are extremely difficult to perform- that have pizzazz already built into them- and then use those in a special traditional forms division for forms competition. Everybody would know what they are, how difficult they are, and what they are supposed to look like.

You'd still have the regular traditional division.

[B-Rad]

What does standardizing and adding a scoring difficulty system for traditional competition add to your system? It makes judging easier, but should that be a goal of traditional wushu/kungfu? Is the appeasement of judges and improved "performance" standards worth that kind of change? I'm not necessarily against standardized training systems and judging common standards for forms competition, but would the results be worth the effort put into making such a thing to work. While it would get rid of a lot of the BS in forms competition, and take away some of the political baloney, do you think forms competitions important enough to traditional martial arts to need such an overhaul. Should forms competition results really matter to traditional Chinese martial arts?

[WinterPalm]

I see.

But still, there is really no pizazz in fighting.

Left hook, right straight, dump 'em on his head.:eek:

[B-Rad]

See- I'm not talking about changing the forms- I'm saying that we find a couple of traditional forms that are extremely difficult to perform- that have pizzazz already built into them- and then use those in a special traditional forms division for forms competition. Everybody would know what they are, how difficult they are, and what they are supposed to look like.

I think I mis-understood what you were saying the first time.

Something like this though would only work as a division for competition WITHIN a specific lineage or group. Wouldn't work for multiple styles without creating standardized forms that everyone would theoretically agree on (basically how modern wushu started out... of course it doesn't really work as there's too much individuality).

[MasterKiller]

All you would end up doing is removing any individual flavor from the performance and awarding the medals to the best robot of the group.

[MightyB]

I see.

But still, there is really no pizazz in fighting.

Left hook, right straight, dump 'em on his head.:eek:

You've obviously never heard of Ehsan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noPRJpFjxyw&feature=related

[MightyB]

All you would end up doing is removing any individual flavor from the performance and awarding the medals to the best robot of the group.

you may have a point- what about setting criteria for difficulty levels such as length- type of movement, etc.?

[mantis108]

One of the greatest martial artists I'll ever have the pleasure to know, Chung Ho Yin, was able to be humble enough to learn Eagle Claw after he was already a renowned Sifu of 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu. The essence of life, of growth, is to always be a student.

You can't think you know everything- it's self limiting. Always seek out those with skill so that you can continue to learn. This is the essence of growth- of being a martial artist.

---

Or you can stay in your own little box in your own little world...

My impression is that this is what you are suggesting:


But to change a form so that it is better for judging criteria, solely on aesthetics, is not growth in my opinion.
Doing a solid kung fu form properly with all the mechanics and alignment, power generation, etc, is as difficult if not more so than doing flashy spinning cartwheels and handstands.

Do we grow to impress judges? Or grow to further our combative skills?

which brings to another question... Do you believe that learning another system means just learning more forms or perhaps learning the way they do their forms? Growth means collections of forms or the skills to do the forms?

Mantis108

[MightyB]

My impression is that this is what you are suggesting:



which brings to another question... Do you believe that learning another system means just learning more forms or perhaps learning the way they do their forms? Growth means collections of forms or the skills to do the forms?

Mantis108

it's about making traditional forms competition more fun and exciting for elite athletes and their fans.

[Chan Da-Wei]

Growth is good. I've often told people that once you are good at one style, say black belt or a good 5 years in. Go get a white belt and start something new. It will humble you and that is what I did with Judo and later on in life hopefully I will don another white belt and get my azz handed to me and learn something..

From my experience I recon it takes a lot longer than 5 years or a black belt to be 'good' in a system. But then it depends on hour many hours of quality training you have done in that 5 years with a good teacher.

IMHO the typical student, training say twice a week with their teacher plus once or twice a week on their own, after 5 years they would probably have a strong understanding of the fundamentals. Realize im generalizing here but too often I see people get to around the 5 year mark only to leave the art and start something else. At 5 years, they are usually starting to study the system in some depth still perfecting and polishing previously learn't material.

It also depends on how high the ceiling of knowledge and ability is in your school as well. I know one TCMA school here in Wellington that has students who have trained with their Sifu solely for 20 years so the guys who have just clocked in 5-7 years (black t shirt level) are like 'freshmen' who get very 'humbled' whenever they have training with their sihings. I also know of schools around here where the most seniour student has been training for 5 years. In that case, it's the teacher that does humbles the student:-) Of course some schools have not been in existence for 20 years. That's also why having a large kung fu family (sibak's/ sisooks etc) can be advantageous to smaller/ younger schools....hmm i've seem to have digressed!

[MightyB]

I'm a little curious- Ummm, forgive my ignorance, but- could you explain the spirit of the Chin Wu association? You know- why it was created, etc...

[MightyB]

I'm a little curious- Ummm, forgive my ignorance, but- could you explain the spirit of the Chin Wu association? You know- why it was created, etc...

anyway- my point is that this happened before. The Chin Wu did it- there are actually standard sets like Goon Le Kune, Jeet Kune, Sub E Lo Tan Tui, etc that all members or affiliates know--- none of them are all that difficult IMO-- well Jeet Kune's kind'a cool and flashy- but you see where I'm going. You have different styles and different masters, all agreeing on some type of format and standard. Why can't this be done now with better forms?

[WinterPalm]

From my experience I recon it takes a lot longer than 5 years or a black belt to be 'good' in a system. But then it depends on hour many hours of quality training you have done in that 5 years with a good teacher.

IMHO the typical student, training say twice a week with their teacher plus once or twice a week on their own, after 5 years they would probably have a strong understanding of the fundamentals. Realize im generalizing here but too often I see people get to around the 5 year mark only to leave the art and start something else. At 5 years, they are usually starting to study the system in some depth still perfecting and polishing previously learn't material.

It also depends on how high the ceiling of knowledge and ability is in your school as well. I know one TCMA school here in Wellington that has students who have trained with their Sifu solely for 20 years so the guys who have just clocked in 5-7 years (black t shirt level) are like 'freshmen' who get very 'humbled' whenever they have training with their sihings. I also know of schools around here where the most seniour student has been training for 5 years. In that case, it's the teacher that does humbles the student:-) Of course some schools have not been in existence for 20 years. That's also why having a large kung fu family (sibak's/ sisooks etc) can be advantageous to smaller/ younger schools....hmm i've seem to have digressed!

If after five years you are not good, meaning a variety of things, then you should probably find somewhere else to train anyway. By good I mean competent and with some skill. Usually a black belt means you've earned something and arrived at something...even if just a step in the right direction. It's also considered a marker of achievement and skill in a system (unless you buy the belt). Often people at this level become driven by ego and nothing stamps that down better than doning a white belt and realizing how little you know.
I agree that many skills take a long time to ingrain and develop...but the basics of combat and fighting should be instilled fairly well within a couple years.

For instance, a judo player or boxer with 5 years should have some solid skills. I don't think there should be a difference for kung fu.

[MightyB]

If after five years you are not good, meaning a variety of things, then you should probably find somewhere else to train anyway. By good I mean competent and with some skill. Usually a black belt means you've earned something and arrived at something...even if just a step in the right direction. It's also considered a marker of achievement and skill in a system (unless you buy the belt). Often people at this level become driven by ego and nothing stamps that down better than doning a white belt and realizing how little you know.
I agree that many skills take a long time to ingrain and develop...but the basics of combat and fighting should be instilled fairly well within a couple years.

For instance, a judo player or boxer with 5 years should have some solid skills. I don't think there should be a difference for kung fu.

How true it is.

[Chan Da-Wei]

I agree that many skills take a long time to ingrain and develop...but the basics of combat and fighting should be instilled fairly well within a couple years..

Agree.....and as I said, after five years, the basics should be to a good standard. But then why would you want to start learning a new art (chasing a new rabbit) if you've only got good basics in a system? Seems premature in my view. The foundations are in but you've left to start working on another site before you even built the first house.

[WinterPalm]

I think the issue is that while learning a new art you continue to practice the first one you learned.
For instance, I did a year of very in-depth study of tai chi...about 2hrs a night 7 days a week, literally. Although I do not practice this anymore, the mechanics and body knowledge is ingrained in me.
And sometimes the circumstances are beyond our control and we must move on.

Besides, it's all about the basics, right? And to use your house analogy, sometimes a hut is enough for some when others prefer to build a mansion!:D

[MightyB]

Agree.....and as I said, after five years, the basics should be to a good standard. But then why would you want to start learning a new art (chasing a new rabbit) if you've only got good basics in a system? Seems premature in my view. The foundations are in but you've left to start working on another site before you even built the first house.

This is when most people look for complimentary systems- it's not so much as chasing a new art- but bringing insite back to your original. For example- if you're a hard external stylist- it would be wise to compliment it with a soft-internal style. Or, if you're a striker- maybe it's time to take up grappling along with your striking style. What you want to do is compliment whatever it is that you're specializing in with a good taste of what it is that you might face.

[WinterPalm]

This is when most people look for complimentary systems- it's not so much as chasing a new art- but bringing insite back to your original. For example- if you're a hard external stylist- it would be wise to compliment it with a soft-internal style. Or, if you're a striker- maybe it's time to take up grappling along with your striking style. What you want to do is compliment whatever it is that you're specializing in with a good taste of what it is that you might face.

I agree 100%.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
At a certain point you look at what you know and realize that maybe only half of it you understand or can apply and the idea of adding more of the same seems redundant. I know I've only got a little bit of knowledge from the kung fu I've studied but I train my hardest to understand the basics and the concepts and to make it work for me.
With Judo, which I've recently started training in, I'm exposed to a whole other world of combat and it excites me and definitely compliments my kung fu.

[MightyB]

I understand 100% Winter Palm- I'm a Judo nut myself. For whatever reason, Judo fell out of favor in the US and that's too bad 'cuz it's the schiznit of competitive fighting arts. You learn Judo- you can do Sambo, BJJ, Jujitsu, and Shuai Chiao no problem- I got a good shot at being the #1 Judo guy for 160 lbs in Michigan next month (not really saying much- kind'a like being the smartest guy on the short bus if you know what I mean).

[WinterPalm]

MightyB,
What belt level do you compete at?

The beauty of judo is it retains the crazy explosiveness of wrestling plus the more static ground work.

[MightyB]

which brings to another question... Do you believe that learning another system means just learning more forms or perhaps learning the way they do their forms? Growth means collections of forms or the skills to do the forms?

Mantis108

Well- I'd say at the level of master- styles are nothing more than a collection of forms.

Style ceases to exist- external becomes internal- everything becomes relative. Fighting is reduced to Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - nothing more. There is no separation. All arts become one- therefore- if you claim to do a "style". What is it that you claim?

[MightyB]

MightyB,
What belt level do you compete at?

The beauty of judo is it retains the crazy explosiveness of wrestling plus the more static ground work.


Brown/Black- I'm just an Ikkyu. I've only been doing Judo for 3 years (started for my 30th birthday), but I started Mantis in 92 and had a great base before I joined Judo.

[WinterPalm]

Kung Fu legs and balance help tremendously. I've competed and took silver at yellow belt fighting at -81 KG.

[Chan Da-Wei]

sometimes a hut is enough for some when others prefer to build a mansion!:D

Nice point!

But we do need those 'mansion' builders so they can pass on their knowledge to those who only want to build huts right.

[BlueTravesty]

I think nandu is an interesting concept. I don't like watching most wushu (besides some of the compulsories, which unfortunately are not featured in competitions, and the Chaquan forms) Most of it is too jumpy jumpy runny runny spinny kicky for my taste. A couple cool tricks are all fine and dandy, and there are plenty of traditional forms that are pretty darn difficult; but If forms were soup, most Nandu is like a bowl filled with salt and cayenne pepper with a couple drops of broth. It's interesting, and... creative, but not something I'd enjoy.