A thought provoking Royal Dragon E-mail

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hello all. I got this in my E-mail today, and it got me thinking about many things. I am still trying to gather my thoughts, but I would like your opinions on this. I am sure it is bound to get some reactions. Remember, the following is an E-mail I received, not one I wrote (Although I don't really disagree)


CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish......... and send it on to anyone who will read it

Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.....

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of
Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34)

Intellectually - no. . . Because he ca nnot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving an d kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as the Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent
names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish...it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. . ...

And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding!
Wake up America !

Obama even says if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran--- not a Bible!

Footnote: He was sworn in on the Quran for his current office and he refuses to pledge allegiance to the United States or put his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played!!!
The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.....Hello!!!! Having a Muslim president would seem to fit the bill! Would you trust this man with our national secrets?????

[Black Jack II]

False.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

The guy is a empty suit, more a cult than a man, and he sure as hell is not getting my vote but that is a internet rambling.

[Mook Jong]

If you puritanically follow what the bible, torah or quran say, you will not be able to peacfully interact with others, let alone what is considered a sin. Just curious, how many christians don't eat meat on fridays these days? That entire thing is just racist and a misinterpretation of religion.

[doug maverick]

from someone who grew up with muslims. let me tell you thats bull****. any body can be a good american.

[Vash]

from someone who grew up with muslims. let me tell you thats bull****. any body can be a good american.

Except the Dutch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the artical brings up some interesting points though.

From a strict, technical stand point, You can't hold 100% true to the Muslim religion, and America ideals at the same time.

That said, how many Muslims adhear to strict Muslim religious requirements?

Is it necessary to water down religious purity so that one can function well within a large mixed society? If so, is religion itself becoming outdated?

[Mook Jong]

I would say that the judeo-christian tradition is outdated, it doesn't provide for any room for change if adhered to strictly, just my opinion not trying to cause conflict here. Christianity, if strictly followed, is incredibly limiting, forbidding you from interacting with people of other religions, ****sexuals or anyone who generally goes against what the church tells you. And what exactly are "American Ideals"? Wanting the best for your family? Being an active member of the community?

[Shaolinlueb]

my sihing is a african american muslim and he is a great guy, loves this country and became a federal agent.

[SifuAbel]

If you puritanically follow what the bible, torah or quran say, you will not be able to peacfully interact with others, let alone what is considered a sin. Just curious, how many christians don't eat meat on fridays these days? That entire thing is just racist and a misinterpretation of religion.

The true irony is that the very people we look down upon as backward, stone aged, sheep herders are the very people that brought us what religions call "the truth".

When are "we" as a people globally going to realize that what we are trying to hold on to in these religions are a bunch of desert prejudices. The Bible, Torah and Koran all deal with the subjective moralities of their time. Many of which have no place in modern times. If you were to take out only the moments that count, the moments when the spirit is truly part of the story and put them together, the texts would be significantly smaller. In reality that is what really counts, the moments of power when something greater than ourselves turns all matter and reality on its ear. The rest is just ass gas.

And this Obama/muslim hysteria is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but its a knee jerk. :rolleyes:

Spirituality evolves, let it happen.

[monji112000]

The true irony is that the very people we look down upon as backward, stone aged, sheep herders are the very people that brought us what religions call "the truth".

When are "we" as a people globally going to realize that what we are trying to hold on to in these religions are a bunch of desert prejudices. The Bible, Torah and Koran all deal with the subjective moralities of their time. Many of which have no place in modern times. If you were to take out only the moments that count, the moments when the spirit is truly part of the story and put them together, the texts would be significantly smaller. In reality that is what really counts, the moments of power when something greater than ourselves turns all matter and reality on its ear. The rest is just ass gas.

And this Obama/muslim hysteria is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but its a knee jerk. :rolleyes:

Spirituality evolves, let it happen.

spirituality is a nice feeling but nothing worth anything comes out of it. Without a structure and a ultimate reason/law/god logic ... circumstance can turn a monk into hilter. The problem with "religion" isn't the religion its the people. The people who interpret the religion, and the people who follow the religion. All morals are subjective. The fact is that most religions and cultures share a core set of morals (or a similar core set). I would rather trust someone with my life that is a "religious" person than someone who has no religion. Why not steal if you can't get in trouble? why not do (insert something "wrong") if you feel its deserved.

what does it mean to be a good American? serve your country? how many politicians serve? their kids? Follow the laws? How many politicians really follow all the laws? WTF is a good American? Who is a good American?

most religious people are the most peaceful people you will ever meet. All in all its very odd that someone who isn't Muslim to still call himself Barack Hussein Obama.
You won't find any converted jews with that name. Jesus and Mohamed are also names people tend to change when they convert.

personally I'm more worried about his policies, not what god he prays too.:rolleyes: Does anyone really think the next president is going to be a young black man named Barack Hussein Obama... what next a lesbian native American president? Is America that liberal?

Do the smart choice vote none of the above!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LPdTXRjIKQ

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think most major religions promote intolerance for those outside thier belife system.

I think back in a time when man was growing to large in numbers to the point where primitive tribalism was falling part, religion was able to step in and enlarge the scope and keep it unified.

However, we are increasingly in a more and more global world, and tolerance of other's belifes, customs and cultures is the only way we can peacefully coexist into the future.

This means less, and less adherence to much of religious intolerance, and conflict generating rules needs to go the way of the dinosaurs in my opinion.


I really like the Wiccan guiding principals. they don't have 10 commandments, they have only one:

"Do as you will, but cause no harm"

[Drake]

Once early christians skinned a "heretic" alive with seashells.

Last I checked, Leviticus had some pretty harsh guidelines for dealing with different people.

And for crying out loud, Obama isn't a muslim. If we don't want the world seeing us as backwater rednecks, we should probably stop acting the part.

[SifuAbel]

spirituality is a nice feeling but nothing worth anything comes out of it. Without a structure and a ultimate reason/law/god logic ... circumstance can turn a monk into hilter. The problem with "religion" isn't the religion its the people. The people who interpret the religion, and the people who follow the religion. All morals are subjective. The fact is that most religions and cultures share a core set of morals (or a similar core set). I would rather trust someone with my life that is a "religious" person than someone who has no religion. Why not steal if you can't get in trouble? why not do (insert something "wrong") if you feel its deserved. More harm has been done in the name of religion than for any other purpose. Don't confuse the meetings with the prime mover with bogus hippie kisses from a heaven's gate flower child. People created the religions. Jesus never said, "hey, go out and tear people to pieces if they don't say uncle and join your frat." It was the ****ed insipidly stupid people that came afterwards that decided it was a good idea to pad the books, so to speak. The failure of mankind has always been to place himself in the role of the god. To arrogantly assume authority over others in the name of something that transcends all human experience. To say spirituality is just a nice feeling totally bypasses the point. We are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are spirits having a human experience. The rest of it is as arbitrary as children making up rules as they go along for a game they haven't quite figured out yet.

A person is sensible and can generally find the cool way to live most times. People on the other hand are crude, panicky, stupid and scared. Religion was created to control the mob. BTW, A monk has already turned into a Hitler. His name was Torquemada. And he killed with the backing of the Vatican.


what does it mean to be a good American? serve your country? how many politicians serve? their kids? Follow the laws? How many politicians really follow all the laws? WTF is a good American? Who is a good American?William Shatner........oh wait......he's canadian, never mind.


most religious people are the most peaceful people you will ever meet. All in all its very odd that someone who isn't Muslim to still call himself Barack Hussein Obama.
You won't find any converted jews with that name. Jesus and Mohamed are also names people tend to change when they convert.A Rose by any other name......


personally I'm more worried about his policies, not what god he prays too.:rolleyes: Does anyone really think the next president is going to be a young black man named Barack Hussein Obama... what next a lesbian native American president? Is America that liberal?
Worry about his policies. Thats the only correct way to view this. Everything else is just knee jerk mishegoss. BTW, he's a democrat. Not a whole lot to discover, really. :rolleyes: He isn't a monster sent from planet mongo, a Muslim plot to kill America, or a sleeper from a communist soviet program. Its just beyond belief how people are reaching for any piece of straw. People are rallying to him because he represents a fresh start. People are disgusted with the present administration AND they don't quite want to go back to another Clinton era either.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Individuals get along just fine, regardless of religion or race, the issues arise when we deal with groups.

[Black Jack II]

Once early christians skinned a "heretic" alive with seashells.

Once, as in a very long time ago.

Last I checked Christians did not have a thousand and one beheading video's floating around internet. Don't even try and compare the violence of Islam with Christianity....well unless your high and want to talk out your a$$.

Can Muslim's be good American's, if you love your country then yes, but you sure as hell don't see a lot of Muslim's talking out about what their country is doing, call it what you will, but Islam is a sick and twisted dogma if there ever was one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Once, as in a very long time ago.

Last I checked Christians did not have a thousand and one beheading video's floating around internet. Don't even try and compare the violence of Islam with Christianity....well unless your high and want to talk out your a$$.

Can Muslim's be good American's, if you love your country then yes, but you sure as hell don't see a lot of Muslim's talking out about what their country is doing, call it what you will, but Islam is a sick and twisted dogma if there ever was one.

Its not correct to pain all with the same brush that we paint selected few.
The biggest issue I have is with the "silent majority" of Muslims that don't fix there extremists like they shoudl be fixed.

[Drake]

Once, as in a very long time ago.

Last I checked Christians did not have a thousand and one beheading video's floating around internet. Don't even try and compare the violence of Islam with Christianity....well unless your high and want to talk out your a$$.

Can Muslim's be good American's, if you love your country then yes, but you sure as hell don't see a lot of Muslim's talking out about what their country is doing, call it what you will, but Islam is a sick and twisted dogma if there ever was one.

They just bomb abortion clinics, blow up federal buildings, and barricade themselves in compounds now. :D

And if you say they are an aberration of christianity, then in all fairness you cn say the same about al qaeda.

I bet if you tally up the numbers, historically, christians are the number one killers on the planet. Islam has a LOT of catching up to do, especially after what the christian Hitler did.

As for muslims not speaking out, you clearly don't read enough...

www.freemuslims.org/
www.m-a-t.org/
www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

The last one being particularly informative about muslim outrage over 9-11

[Black Jack II]

As for muslims not speaking out, you clearly don't read enough...

Ah, you must be one of those so-called "sophisticated" critics.:rolleyes:

Wow, three resources, compared to millions of others who don't.

In many Islamic countries a majority of Muslims lionize the man responsible for the atrocities of September 11th and the terrorist gangs who routinely slaughter civilians in Israeli buses and restaurants. In Arab schools and on Arab television, children are taught the glory of becoming suicide bombers.

Almost everywhere that Islam borders other cultures, there is violence. Take a look at Sweden for a example of how things get nasty when Islam takes root.

Islamic countries are fascist, autocratic nations where women are subjugated and minorities are persecuted, countries which have been rife with poverty for centuries. I am talking about a religon here, not a demographic group, and yes having met and trained with a number of muslims, in a muslim art, that I can say I can stick by my serious dislike of the religon of Islam.

Islam is not exempt from critical analysis, as shown here their is no shortage of critics on Christianity or on almost any college campus for that reason where correct thought-police stifle debate on Islam by shamelessly playing the race card -- even though Islam is not a race.

Islam is a throwback.

[B-Rad]

I bet if you tally up the numbers, historically, christians are the number one killers on the planet. Islam has a LOT of catching up to do, especially after what the christian Hitler did.

As for muslims not speaking out, you clearly don't read enough...
If you think Hitler was a Christian, then YOU clearly haven't read enough :rolleyes: BTW, I think you're forgetting about the Communists (China and USSR would easily dwarf Hitlers #'s anyway).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

he's a democrat. Not a whole lot to discover, really. He isn't a monster sent from planet mongo, a Muslim plot to kill America, or a sleeper from a communist soviet program

Reply]
Um, have you paid attention to the various plans and programs the democratic party and thier 2 presidential candidates want to implement in this country? It's one socialist program after another...they are nothing short of Soviet Union lite at this point.

[MasterKiller]

he's a democrat. Not a whole lot to discover, really. He isn't a monster sent from planet mongo, a Muslim plot to kill America, or a sleeper from a communist soviet program

Reply]
Um, have you paid attention to the various plans and programs the democratic party and thier 2 presidential candidates want to implement in this country? It's one socialist program after another...they are nothing short of Soviet Union lite at this point.
Republicans already implemented KGB-like police tactics here: Illegal wire taps on U.S. citizens, unlimited imprisonment without charge or trial, torture of U.S. enemies, state-sponsored media congolmeration and propoganda (Rupert Murdoch, Bush's fake news stories illegally paid for with tax dollars to gain support for the prescription drug act, paying off of columnists to write articles promoting gov't agenda), limits to free speech (free-speech 'zones', anyone), and increased intrusive search and seizure policies for local police.

Democrats are just following the lead.

[Becca]

However, we are increasingly in a more and more global world, and tolerance of other's belifes, customs and cultures is the only way we can peacefully coexist into the future.

The nice part about being a "good american" is that you get to have all your own beliefes so long as you "cause no harm." You don't have to be a member of a certain faith in order to be tolerant of it. You can out-right dislike some one and still be civil to them in public. I think being a good American is accepting that your ways are not everyone else and that's ok.

[Black Jack II]

Republicans already implemented KGB-like police tactics here:

Nothing even close to the KGB, I bet you cannot name one right, that was taken away from you in specific, something from any of these programs that affected you.


Illegal wire taps on U.S. citizens,

Nothing illegal about them, they were passed by Congress, and it targeted for specifics.


unlimited imprisonment without charge or trial,

Not U.S. citizens. War prisoners.


torture of U.S. enemies,

Water-Torture was defined as not being torture. If we want to talk torture you should check out the other side.


Bush's fake news stories illegally paid for with tax dollars to gain support for the prescription drug act, paying off of columnists to write articles promoting gov't agenda),

Zero real proof on this whatsoever:rolleyes:


limits to free speech

Where is YOUR new limit to free speech? When did this happen to you?


increased intrusive search and seizure policies for local police.

In what respect? In War Time these things happen by the way.

[Mook Jong]

Once, as in a very long time ago.

Last I checked Christians did not have a thousand and one beheading video's floating around internet. Don't even try and compare the violence of Islam with Christianity....well unless your high and want to talk out your a$$.

Can Muslim's be good American's, if you love your country then yes, but you sure as hell don't see a lot of Muslim's talking out about what their country is doing, call it what you will, but Islam is a sick and twisted dogma if there ever was one.

There aren't christian beheading videos because the KKK tends to hang or burn its victims. Islam is a religion that is easily twisted because of misinterpritation of the koran, specifically jihad.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to not like the muslims you've met, maybe they were very reclusive or just d1cks but those kind of blanket statements are false and needlessly malicious

[MasterKiller]

Nothing illegal about them, they were passed by Congress, and it targeted for specifics. No they were not. Congress mandates wire tapes be authorized by judicial oversight. These were not.

If they were legal, Bush wouldn't be pressing for retroactive immunity for the phone companies that complied with this illegal activity.


Not U.S. citizens. War prisoners.
When did Congress declare war?


Water-Torture was defined as not being torture. If we want to talk torture you should check out the other side. I guess sticking lightbulbs in people's @sses is OK? Having dogs attack them?


Zero real proof on this whatsoever:rolleyes:
Federal authorities are actively investigating dozens of American television stations for broadcasting items produced by the Bush administration and major corporations, and passing them off as normal news. Some of the fake news segments talked up success in the war in Iraq, or promoted the companies' products.


Investigators from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) are seeking information about stations across the country after a report produced by a campaign group detailed the extraordinary extent of the use of such items.

The report, by the non-profit group Centre for Media and Democracy, found that over a 10-month period at least 77 television stations were making use of the faux news broadcasts, known as Video News Releases (VNRs). Not one told viewers who had produced the items.

"We know we only had partial access to these VNRs and yet we found 77 stations using them," said Diana Farsetta, one of the group's researchers. "I would say it's pretty extraordinary. The picture we found was much worse than we expected going into the investigation in terms of just how widely these get played and how frequently these pre-packaged segments are put on the air."

Ms Farsetta said the public relations companies commissioned to produce these segments by corporations had become increasingly sophisticated in their techniques in order to get the VNRs broadcast. "They have got very good at mimicking what a real, independently produced television report would look like," she said.

The FCC has declined to comment on the investigation but investigators from the commission's enforcement unit recently approached Ms Farsetta for a copy of her group's report.

The range of VNR is wide. Among items provided by the Bush administration to news stations was one in which an Iraqi-American in Kansas City was seen saying "Thank you Bush. Thank you USA" in response to the 2003 fall of Baghdad. The footage was actually produced by the State Department, one of 20 federal agencies that have produced and distributed such items.

Many of the corporate reports, produced by drugs manufacturers such as Pfizer, focus on health issues and promote the manufacturer's product. One example cited by the report was a Hallowe'en segment produced by the confectionery giant Mars, which featured Snickers, M&Ms and other company brands. While the original VNR disclosed that it was produced by Mars, such information was removed when it was broadcast by the television channel - in this case a Fox-owned station in St Louis, Missouri.

Bloomberg news service said that other companies that sponsored the promotions included General Motors, the world's largest car maker, and Intel, the biggest maker of semi-conductors. All of the companies said they included full disclosure of their involvement in the VNRs. "We in no way attempt to hide that we are providing the video," said Chuck Mulloy, a spokesman for Intel. "In fact, we bend over backward to make this disclosure."

The FCC was urged to act by a lobbying campaign organised by Free Press, another non-profit group that focuses on media policy. Spokesman Craig Aaron said more than 25,000 people had written to the FCC about the VNRs. "Essentially it's corporate advertising or propaganda masquerading as news," he said. "The public obviously expects their news reports are going to be based on real reporting and real information. If they are watching an advertisement for a company or a government policy, they need to be told."

The controversy over the use of VNRs by television stations first erupted last spring. At the time the FCC issued a public notice warning broadcasters that they were obliged to inform viewers if items were sponsored. The maximum fine for each violation is $32,500 (£17,500).


Where is YOUR new limit to free speech? When did this happen to you? If it happens in America AT ALL, it's a d@mn shame.


In what respect? In War Time these things happen by the way. When did Congress declare war?

[WinterPalm]

Hello all. I got this in my E-mail today, and it got me thinking about many things. I am still trying to gather my thoughts, but I would like your opinions on this. I am sure it is bound to get some reactions. Remember, the following is an E-mail I received, not one I wrote (Although I don't really disagree)


CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish......... and send it on to anyone who will read it

Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.....

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of
Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34)

Intellectually - no. . . Because he ca nnot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving an d kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as the Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent
names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish...it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. . ...

And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding!
Wake up America !

Obama even says if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran--- not a Bible!

Footnote: He was sworn in on the Quran for his current office and he refuses to pledge allegiance to the United States or put his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played!!!
The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.....Hello!!!! Having a Muslim president would seem to fit the bill! Would you trust this man with our national secrets?????

That whole thing is a mess.

People are afraid of Muslims because they are different and because many do not know any. It's true that many communities keep to themselves and hardly venture outside their friends and families. And if people go to CNN or FOX for their news and end up seeing image after image of evil Muslims that want to kill them, then sure, they'll get afraid.
I know many individuals that are Muslims. Most are solid fellows that, although adhering to religious observances to a strict degree that not really any other group in Canada does, they're normal people like the rest of us.

People want outsiders, they want to seem special, they want to seem great, and unity is achieved through comparison.

Why don't all of Americans speak out against atrocities committed by their government? Invading countries? Killing innocent people? Torture?

For what it's worth, my Somalian friend who is Muslim tells me that if you kill yourself that is the worst sin and that murder is not accepted.

There are fanatics. Absolutely. But that would be like saying all of Americans are like the Bush administration. And I know that's not the case...

[cjurakpt]

From a strict, technical stand point, You can't hold 100% true to the Muslim religion, and America ideals at the same time.

the same could be said, really, for any religion if one practices it "100%"; technically, a fundamental Christian reading of the Bible would undoubtedly contradict many aspects of the American socio-legal construct; same with Orthodox Judaism; at the "extreme" end, being a Buddhist is inherently in conflict with the notion of being "American", since one of the myths it seeks to dispel is identification of oneself as being of a nationality (which basically reinforces the illusion of the ego-structure);

point is, life is contradiction; 100% consistency with any "-ism" is more akin to being dead than alive, because it robs one of the ability to spontaneously respond to a given life situation; adhering unerringly to any structured belief system, be it religious, philosophical or political, is to completely trade in one's own unique status as an individual for a set of pre-conceived precepts

so if being a Muslin or whatever is in conflict with being an American, first off, good; second off, who really cares? what's so inherently special about being "American"? certainly, there are many positive aspects, but it's not by any means an inherently superior designation; and one can still live in this country as a productive, contributing citizen without subscribing to any of the patriotic silliness that so many seem to feel is vital to being a "good American";

as for Obama, he's Christian, if I am not mistaken, not Muslim (like it would matter if he was...)

[B-Rad]

Yes, Obama is Christian belonging to the Trinity United Church of Christ. I remember the criticisms over his choice of church over them having fairly radical views on race relations, and his pastor has been mentioned many times on the news.

His father was a Muslim though, and his mother was an atheist.

[MasterKiller]

Zero real proof on this whatsoever:rolleyes:.

The Bush administration was confronted with fresh evidence of a far-reaching clandestine campaign to influence public opinion yesterday after a third conservative commentator admitted receiving payments for championing its policies.

Michael McManus, a newspaper columnist, was paid up to $10,000 (£5,300) to praise the administration's marriage initiative, which diverts funds from welfare to marital counselling, the Los Angeles Times reported.

His fees were approved by a branch of the department of health and human services, and were funnelled through the Lewin Group, a consultancy firm. The commentator's rightwing Marriage Savers Foundation received an additional $49,000 in government grants. Mr McManus did not disclose the payments in his columns.

Neither did Maggie Gallagher, another conservative columnist and even a more prominent supporter of the marriage plan.

The Washington Post reported on Wednesday that Ms Gallagher received $21,500 from the department of health and human services, and $20,000 from the justice department for championing the initiative in her syndicated newspaper columns.

George Bush tried to distance the administration from such payment practices earlier this week, and an official from the health department said the payments would cease.

But a report issued on Thursday by Democratic members of the House of Representatives suggested the Bush administration may rely far more heavily on pay-per-view columnists than had been previously thought.

The administration spent more than $88m on public relations contracts last year - more than double the $37m it spent during Mr Bush's first year in office. That brought the administration's first-term spending on PR to $250m.

The first sign of a political payola scandal erupted this month when USA Today reported that Armstrong Williams, a conservative African-American columnist, had been paid $240,000 by the education department to champion the administration's controversial policies in his print, radio and television outlets.

Mr Williams was paid through Ketchum PR, the public relations firm also involved in producing fake "news pieces" last year that touted the administration's prescription drug bill. Some US television stations put the clips straight on the air.

The administration claimed that its use of a fake reporter, Karen Ryan, to sell its programmes, was an isolated incident. It now appears that such covert campaigns were widespread.

The Bush administration's readiness to pay for favourable press at a time of mounting budget deficits has raised eyebrows in Congress.

"While not all public relations spending is illegal or inappropriate, this rapid rise in public relations contracts at a time of growing budget deficits raises questions about the priorities of the administration," a report on public relations spending by the Democratic staff of the house government reform committee said.

[Black Jack II]

No they were not. Congress mandates wire tapes be authorized by judicial oversight. These were not.

The Patriot Act was signed into Congress on Oct 26, 2001. This includes the above wiretapping and other "sneak and peak" areas for suspected terrorists.

Again, when and were has this act, ever infringed on your rights?

Just curious?


When did Congress declare war?

Technically your right, its a military engagement. The President does not need not an act of Congress btw for a military engagement and some legally would even say a Offical State of War.

But if you don't think two sides are at war then the context of the topic becomes almost mute. Maybe it would of been better if I said suspect terrorists instead of War Prisoners but in the end these are not U.S. citizens for the most part anyway, so the same rights do not apply.

But as you already know, the Senate voted to Authorise the use of the United States Armed forces against Iraq. It was offically voted on, we are there, it's a war, one the Islamic world has been declaring on the West for a long time.


I guess sticking lightbulbs in people's @sses is OK? Having dogs attack them?

You seem to be using "two" different contexts for torture, one is an act of nasty prison guards, which btw is not even close to officall sanctioned torture, and then their is approved interogation methods.

Which is it?

BTW-On a personal level, I could really give a f@ck that some ******* who cheered on 9/11 has a lightbuld shoved up his a$$.


Zero real proof on this whatsoever

That above statement still stand, people investigate crap all the time, let's be reall, tell their is proof then it is what it is, just more bunk.


If it happens in America AT ALL, it's a d@mn shame.

I 110% agree man, but you did not answer the question. When did this ever happen to you, or for that matter anyone you know, in context to what we are booth talking about.

[Mook Jong]

I thought the people being tortured, or at least 'intensly interrogated', weren't "POWs". Didn't the administration call them enemy combatants to kinda skirt the geneva convention and ethical treatment of prisoners?

[MasterKiller]

Again, when and were has this act, ever infringed on your rights? I'll never know, because the administration uses State Secret designation on all wire-tap cases which prevents people from suing for disclosure.


I 110% agree man, but you did not answer the question. When did this ever happen to you, or for that matter anyone you know, in context to what we are booth talking about. Free Speech zones were setup during the last presidential election as an off-site protest area. Anyone protesting outside of a free-speech zone was arrested.



That above statement still stand, people investigate crap all the time, let's be reall, tell their is proof then it is what it is, just more bunk The administration admitted to and apologized for both activities once the media ran with the stories.

[B-Rad]

Again, when and were has this act, ever infringed on your rights?
How is that relevant? My Chinese friend has never been persecuted by the government. I guess that means she should assume everyone else in her country are living freedom loving, happy, blissful lives free of government interference in all their daily activities.

[B-Rad]

As for the Patriot Act, it's a constitutional mess, and I know parts of it have been struck down as unconstitutional already. It circumvents our country's system of checks and balances by not requiring proper judicial oversight. A lot of this garbage that's passed to make us "safer" and catch the terrorists has a LOT of potential to be abused, and makes us less safe from the government in the long run.

[B-Rad]

BTW, as for the original email, I didn't find it that thought provoking at all. Whatever good points it might have had, it was severly overshadowed by the obviously bigoted hateful rant. Sounded more like a newsletter from the KKK or one of those nutjob militia groups :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I just ignored the over shadowing parts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just ignored the over shadowing parts.

So did most Germans in 1930's Germany :D

[Black Jack II]

Masterkiller,

Free Speech Zones, they have been around a LONG time, on both sides of the party. We are talking about having a few people move down a quarter mile here so they are not being disruptive.

20 Years ago in LA, when they held the democratic convention I believe, it was the same thing, but miles away.

I still have no idea how this effected you, did you get arrested?


How is that relevant?

Very revelant if you actualy understood the context of what me and another poster were talking about.

Actually name ONE person you know who has been affected by this act....one American?

[MasterKiller]

Actually name ONE person you know who has been affected by this act....one American?

When Bush went to the Pittsburgh area on Labor Day 2002, 65-year-old retired steel worker Bill Neel was there to greet him with a sign proclaiming, "The Bush family must surely love the poor, they made so many of us."

The local police, at the Secret Service's behest, set up a "designated free-speech zone" on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush's speech.

The police cleared the path of the motorcade of all critical signs, but folks with pro-Bush signs were permitted to line the president's path. Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign.

Neel later commented, "As far as I'm concerned, the whole country is a free-speech zone. If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind."

At Neel's trial, police Detective John Ianachione testified that the Secret Service told local police to confine "people that were there making a statement pretty much against the president and his views" in a so-called free- speech area.

Paul Wolf, one of the top officials in the Allegheny County Police Department, told Salon that the Secret Service "come in and do a site survey, and say, 'Here's a place where the people can be, and we'd like to have any protesters put in a place that is able to be secured.' "

Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

Similar suppressions have occurred during Bush visits to Florida. A recent St. Petersburg Times editorial noted, "At a Bush rally at Legends Field in 2001, three demonstrators -- two of whom were grandmothers -- were arrested for holding up small handwritten protest signs outside the designated zone. And last year, seven protesters were arrested when Bush came to a rally at the USF Sun Dome. They had refused to be cordoned off into a protest zone hundreds of yards from the entrance to the Dome."

One of the arrested protesters was a 62-year-old man holding up a sign, "War is good business. Invest your sons." The seven were charged with trespassing, "obstructing without violence and disorderly conduct."

Police have repressed protesters during several Bush visits to the St. Louis area as well. When Bush visited on Jan. 22, 150 people carrying signs were shunted far away from the main action and effectively quarantined.

Denise Lieberman of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri commented, "No one could see them from the street. In addition, the media were not allowed to talk to them. The police would not allow any media inside the protest area and wouldn't allow any of the protesters out of the protest zone to talk to the media."

When Bush stopped by a Boeing plant to talk to workers, Christine Mains and her 5-year-old daughter disobeyed orders to move to a small protest area far from the action. Police arrested Mains and took her and her crying daughter away in separate squad cars.

The Justice Department is now prosecuting Brett Bursey, who was arrested for holding a "No War for Oil" sign at a Bush visit to Columbia, S.C. Local police, acting under Secret Service orders, established a "free-speech zone" half a mile from where Bush would speak. Bursey was standing amid hundreds of people carrying signs praising the president. Police told Bursey to remove himself to the "free-speech zone."

Bursey refused and was arrested. Bursey said that he asked the police officer if "it was the content of my sign, and he said, 'Yes, sir, it's the content of your sign that's the problem.' " Bursey stated that he had already moved 200 yards from where Bush was supposed to speak. Bursey later complained, "The problem was, the restricted area kept moving. It was wherever I happened to be standing."

Bursey was charged with trespassing. Five months later, the charge was dropped because South Carolina law prohibits arresting people for trespassing on public property. But the Justice Department -- in the person of U.S. Attorney Strom Thurmond Jr. -- quickly jumped in, charging Bursey with violating a rarely enforced federal law regarding "entering a restricted area around the president of the United States."

If convicted, Bursey faces a six-month trip up the river and a $5,000 fine. Federal Magistrate Bristow Marchant denied Bursey's request for a jury trial because his violation is categorized as a petty offense. Some observers believe that the feds are seeking to set a precedent in a conservative state such as South Carolina that could then be used against protesters nationwide.

Bursey's trial took place on Nov. 12 and 13. His lawyers sought the Secret Service documents they believed would lay out the official policies on restricting critical speech at presidential visits. The Bush administration sought to block all access to the documents, but Marchant ruled that the lawyers could have limited access.

Bursey sought to subpoena Attorney General John Ashcroft and presidential adviser Karl Rove to testify. Bursey lawyer Lewis Pitts declared, "We intend to find out from Mr. Ashcroft why and how the decision to prosecute Mr. Bursey was reached." The magistrate refused, however, to enforce the subpoenas. Secret Service agent Holly Abel testified at the trial that Bursey was told to move to the "free-speech zone" but refused to cooperate.

[MasterKiller]

The feds have offered some bizarre rationales for hog-tying protesters. Secret Service agent Brian Marr explained to National Public Radio, "These individuals may be so involved with trying to shout their support or nonsupport that inadvertently they may walk out into the motorcade route and be injured. And that is really the reason why we set these places up, so we can make sure that they have the right of free speech, but, two, we want to be sure that they are able to go home at the end of the evening and not be injured in any way." Except for having their constitutional rights shredded.

The ACLU, along with several other organizations, is suing the Secret Service for what it charges is a pattern and practice of suppressing protesters at Bush events in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, New Mexico, Texas and elsewhere. The ACLU's Witold Walczak said of the protesters, "The individuals we are talking about didn't pose a security threat; they posed a political threat."

The Secret Service is duty-bound to protect the president. But it is ludicrous to presume that would-be terrorists are lunkheaded enough to carry anti-Bush signs when carrying pro-Bush signs would give them much closer access. And even a policy of removing all people carrying signs -- as has happened in some demonstrations -- is pointless because potential attackers would simply avoid carrying signs. Assuming that terrorists are as unimaginative and predictable as the average federal bureaucrat is not a recipe for presidential longevity.

The Bush administration's anti-protester bias proved embarrassing for two American allies with long traditions of raucous free speech, resulting in some of the most repressive restrictions in memory in free countries.

When Bush visited Australia in October, Sydney Morning Herald columnist Mark Riley observed, "The basic right of freedom of speech will adopt a new interpretation during the Canberra visits this week by George Bush and his Chinese counterpart, Hu Jintao. Protesters will be free to speak as much as they like just as long as they can't be heard."

Demonstrators were shunted to an area away from the Federal Parliament building and prohibited from using any public address system in the area.

For Bush's recent visit to London, the White House demanded that British police ban all protest marches, close down the center of the city and impose a "virtual three-day shutdown of central London in a bid to foil disruption of the visit by anti-war protesters," according to Britain's Evening Standard. But instead of a "free-speech zone," the Bush administration demanded an "exclusion zone" to protect Bush from protesters' messages.

Such unprecedented restrictions did not inhibit Bush from portraying himself as a champion of freedom during his visit. In a speech at Whitehall on Nov. 19, Bush hyped the "forward strategy of freedom" and declared, "We seek the advance of freedom and the peace that freedom brings."

Attempts to suppress protesters become more disturbing in light of the Homeland Security Department's recommendation that local police departments view critics of the war on terrorism as potential terrorists. In a May terrorist advisory, the Homeland Security Department warned local law enforcement agencies to keep an eye on anyone who "expressed dislike of attitudes and decisions of the U.S. government." If police vigorously followed this advice, millions of Americans could be added to the official lists of suspected terrorists.

Protesters have claimed that police have assaulted them during demonstrations in New York, Washington and elsewhere.

One of the most violent government responses to an antiwar protest occurred when local police and the federally funded California Anti-Terrorism Task Force fired rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders at the Port of Oakland, injuring a number of people.

When the police attack sparked a geyser of media criticism, Mike van Winkle, the spokesman for the California Anti-Terrorism Information Center told the Oakland Tribune, "You can make an easy kind of a link that, if you have a protest group protesting a war where the cause that's being fought against is international terrorism, you might have terrorism at that protest. You can almost argue that a protest against that is a terrorist act."

Van Winkle justified classifying protesters as terrorists: "I've heard terrorism described as anything that is violent or has an economic impact, and shutting down a port certainly would have some economic impact. Terrorism isn't just bombs going off and killing people."

Such aggressive tactics become more ominous in the light of the Bush administration's advocacy, in its Patriot II draft legislation, of nullifying all judicial consent decrees restricting state and local police from spying on those groups who may oppose government policies.

On May 30, 2002, Ashcroft effectively abolished restrictions on FBI surveillance of Americans' everyday lives first imposed in 1976. One FBI internal newsletter encouraged FBI agents to conduct more interviews with antiwar activists "for plenty of reasons, chief of which it will enhance the paranoia endemic in such circles and will further service to get the point across that there is an FBI agent behind every mailbox."

The FBI took a shotgun approach toward protesters partly because of the FBI's "belief that dissident speech and association should be prevented because they were incipient steps toward the possible ultimate commission of act which might be criminal," according to a Senate report.

On Nov. 23 news broke that the FBI is actively conducting surveillance of antiwar demonstrators, supposedly to "blunt potential violence by extremist elements," according to a Reuters interview with a federal law enforcement official.

[David Jamieson]

Its not correct to pain all with the same brush that we paint selected few.
The biggest issue I have is with the "silent majority" of Muslims that don't fix there extremists like they shoudl be fixed.

well, i imagine they will work on that when we get rid of the aryan alliance, the kkk, the hells angels and sundry other hate groups and weird ass militias. I think it's a tall order to ask muslims to go out there and be good muslims by eliminating the criminal element from their society. They should ask that we do the same.

anyway, the email is clearly just baiting nonsense. period.

[lkfmdc]

well, i imagine they will work on that when we get rid of the aryan alliance, the kkk, the hells angels and sundry other hate groups and weird ass militias. I think it's a tall order to ask muslims to go out there and be good muslims by eliminating the criminal element from their society. They should ask that we do the same.

anyway, the email is clearly just baiting nonsense. period.

Every group has it's "nut cases" (citation needed). I do however think that right now Islam faces a unique challenge because of the way their religion is organized. IE they have no "Vatican" and very diverse clerical organization. IE even if they wanted to make a "public statement" how and WHO would make it?

[Becca]

BTW, as for the original email, I didn't find it that thought provoking at all. Whatever good points it might have had, it was severly overshadowed by the obviously bigoted hateful rant. Sounded more like a newsletter from the KKK or one of those nutjob militia groups :p
I don't know... I'd say his posting it here is provoking all kinds of thought... and words.;):D

[Drake]

Ah, you must be one of those so-called "sophisticated" critics.:rolleyes:

Wow, three resources, compared to millions of others who don't.


Actually, one was an extensive list of groups and their letters/websites expressing outrage. I think there were at least 50 links on the last site I listed. Thanks for proving to me you aren't paying attention. And bear in mind each group represents multiple people.

[Drake]

If you think Hitler was a Christian, then YOU clearly haven't read enough :rolleyes: BTW, I think you're forgetting about the Communists (China and USSR would easily dwarf Hitlers #'s anyway).

Communism is relatively new. They'll need more time and more people in order to catch up.

Hitler was a christian, actually. But like muslim extremists, he had issues keeping in line with the teachings.

[David Jamieson]

Communism is relatively new. They'll need more time and more people in order to catch up.

Hitler was a christian, actually. But like muslim extremists, he had issues keeping in line with the teachings.

Hitler in practice was NOT a christian by any standard.

Because you are a member of a church that does not ipso facto make you a representative of the ideals upon which the church was founded, I.E christianity or any other religion for that matter.

Islam at least recognizes the divide between the faith and the faithful.

It is important to not make statements that are obviously incorrect and in and of themselves further baiting in another direction.

[BlueTravesty]

I'm just curious, but where the heck did this claim of "Religion is the #1 cause of all wars" come from anyway? It's bandied about like some kind of pseudo-fact, but what is the starting point for this? Are we just assuming that when Og the Caveman got a bunch of his fellow tribesman together to beat up Grog and his tribesmen that it was because of some religious conflict? Where are the statistics?

For every war that has religion as its major cause (or uses it as an obvious ploy for some other underlying cause, vis a vis the later Crusades) there are many more for which Land-Grabbing/Natuaral Resources, Ethnicity, Politics or Revenge are to blame. If we can urge people to get rid of religion for the sake of peace, let's get rid of those things as well. No more ethnic diversity, no more politics, no more economy, and no more possibility of personal emnity. Those are all things that, like religion aren't "necessary." Gee, that sounds like an awesome society to me!:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Religion is an excuse for hatred and war, not a reason.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm probably about the most virulent opponent of religion on this board, and even I laugh at the "religion is the #1 cause of all wars" claims I always hear thrown about, when it's thrown about in this fashion. When people say that stuff, they're just making inflammatory remarks, throwing down the gauntlet, etc., and I know because I sometimes do that just to **** someone off, and yes, I know it's juvenile....LOL.....:D

The reason religion is implicated in some of history's most reprehensible crimes, massacres, and genocides is not because of a belief in a certain god, etc. Religion is an "organizing principle". Religion (from "religare" [which means "to bind]) groups people together more successfully than any other institution. People martyr themselves for secular ideologies just as willfully as religious martyrs, so the flair for "post-mortem" theatrics isn't an isolated phenomenon curious to the realm of religion.

What happens is that religion takes on a "mob morality mentality", where shared values define the mob. But I've never seen a congregation--even the really wacko ones--where anything like "shared values" can be considered as something whole. Not everyone--but most people have a personal ideology, even though they might publicly agree with a "mob morality mentality" to keep in line with their friends and family--all of whom present the same "false face" despite personal convictions. This is what makes the institution of religion so reprehensible.

Now, for reason religion is capable of committing such grievous errs as the Crusades (esp. the Cathar Crusade and their forays into the Languedoc), the Inquisition, the numerous persecutions of the Jews (3 or 4 major expulsions from Europe), witch hunts, Islamo-fascist terrorism (or whatever the kids are calling it nowadays), Shao-lin Do, etc.:

People take their personal prejudices into the religious world, the which often have nothing to do with religion whatsoever, and find various others who share those reprehensible values.......and in order to motivate others who would be not otherwise inclined to support them, they try to tie them into the "mob morality mentality" that religion upholds. Others stand under the umbrella that opens only to keep from getting wet.

Pretty soon, you have two or three nutso's in charge of a mob that doesn't know why it's formed, only that it's a mob bonded by their religious beliefs (because it's the only one they have in common). But "religion", in this sense, is not the cause. It's just the common bond.

Israeli's and Palestinians don't fight for religious reasons anymore. I bet that only about a 100 or so ever did during the whole conflict. We see it that way, because we're looking in on it from the outside, trying to make sense of it. But in reality, the children are conditioned to hate the other faction from birth. Children's TV programming in Palestine basically brainwashes children to think of Israeli's as crass, stupid, apes---it's institutionalized racism at its worst. Religion has nothing to do with this. It's just human prejudice. Religion is a convenient label, where other "differences" might be nondescript or indistinguisable by sight.

The sunnis, shiites, and kurds don't fight for the sake of Islam's "Mahommedan right to succession". They fight because they're fighting for political legitimacy and a right to power. Even the original fight in religion was a power struggle--hence, it was one of government--not Islam's religious principles. The "religious" principles behind martyrs--they're just good PR for a violent religion. hence, it's religion taking credit for this principle:

If you stick certain kinds of people in certain situations, they'll become violent and murderous. We've had what? Six (major) school shootings in 7 years? It doesn't matter where they're raised or what their religious groundings are--certain environments will turn out murderous people. Look at LA gangs, for Christ's sake. They're the same kind of "organizing principle"--"mob morality mentality"....

The institution of religion is no different than one of any kind of government, and good and bad things can come out of it. This is why religion is pointless at best, and why it is, I admit, sometimes commendable. If someone goes into religion with a positive ideology, like Mother Theresa (even though she doubted religion at times, she didn't doubt her committment to humanity's welfare), then you'll get a lot of good out of it. Religion magnifies good intentions, gives them funding, means, staffing, promotion, etc. Religion also magnifies bad intentions, giving them funding, means, staffing, promotion, etc.

It's just like any other organizing principle, and can be used for both good and bad, despite the fact that their premises are unsound, false, and "romantic", and there isn't any god and we're all a bunch of hairless apes trodding a rock that's dropping through space-time at remarkable speeds unwatched, unguided, and unolved by anybody high above.

[Shaolin Wookie]

**steps down from soapbox. Exits, pursued by a bear.**

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Og the Caveman got a bunch of his fellow tribesman together to beat up Grog and his tribesmen that it was because of some religious conflict? Where are the statistics?

Reply]
No, that one was not about religion, it was about martial arts politics. Grog and his tribe had been repeatedly shooting thier mouths off about how thier style was better than Og's. After many months of tolerating this bs Og and his tribe could not take it any more.

They went there with the original intent to try and discuss the issue with Grog in hopes a peaceful solution could be struck; because Og's tribe really liked the Women of Grog's Tribe; but Grog would not listen and a forecefull ass kicking ensued.

Because Og's tribe were skilfully players of the ancient prehysterical art of Cavasaurus Combat (tm), they quickly conquered the Grogs.

They used the techniques of Prehysterical Punch, the Caveman Kick, the Preditorial Pounce and occasionally the Caveman Club (The weapon of the style) early one morning just before sunrise when the Grogs were just waking up. To this day the Term "Groggy" refers to this ancient early waking state that was the Grog's undoing and gave the Ogs such a tactical advantage.

When it was all over, the Ogs had all the Grogs women (And thus clean and neat caves) and the Grogs were relegated to the outer realms where they were used in service as bait to help catch Dino dinners for the rest of the tribe.

Not only does this story document the Great ubber Prehysterical Grand master Og, the very FIRST prehysterical Grand master of Caveasaurus Combat, but it also marks the first Emperor/King of humanity AND the simotanious separation of mankind into upper and lower classes (The Middle class was still a long way off and had not been invented yet )

After the Grog Vs Og war, The Great Prehysterical Grand Master Og, in his wisdom used the remaining Grogs as slave labor to build a large pile of rocks, to be used as mankind's first sacred place (we call them temples today). This pile of rocks was a special and sacred place where the original martial art of Caveasaurus Combat could be studied and expanded upon for the strength and defense of this primitive tribal empire. The art has been passed down generation, to generation in accordance to the great Og's decree for 180,000 years or so now (depending on how old the Hom0saipen really is).

This is why we have the great art of Caveasaurus Combat to this very day. Of course, the art has grown since then. The original 4 techniques have been expanded to 8 or 9 or so and include the Stegosaurus Stomp, Teradactyl stone (throwing rocks) and the pointy stick as well as a couple others in its arsenal.

And that Children, is the REAL story of the war between the first tribes of man and the official founding of the Caveasaurus Combat style!!

You may now continue with your practice.

[BlueTravesty]

Ah yes, Cave-o-saurus... not bad, for a fake style that is.

Only grand-poo-bah-Ugh learned the for real deadly prehistoric art- MMD (Mixed Mammal Defense.) It was practical to the point where it made "no BS" martial arts like BJJ, Wrestling and Muay Thai look flowery.

For Example:

MMD against a takedown.
Uke tries to shoot in against Tori to take him down and armbar and/or choke him.
Tori has a big rock.
Uke goes for the shot!
Tori drops the rock on the back of Uke's head!

Not to say that there wasn't ground grappling in the art- Grand Poo Bah Ugh took his inspiration for it by watching a confused Sabertooth Cat try to copulate with a resistant Wooly Mammoth in a Tar pit; a tradition that survives into the modern day.

To this day, MMD students still visit his shrine at the La Brea Tar Pits.

[cjurakpt]

To this day, MMD students still visit his shrine at the La Brea Tar Pits.

La Brea Tar Pits? There are no La Brea Tar Pits in Scotland (http://video.aol.com/video/tv-my-bunny-lies-over-the-sea/1789262)!

[bakxierboxer]

I'm probably about the most virulent opponent of religion on this board....
Look at LA gangs, for Christ's sake.....

Like you said.......?

[bakxierboxer]

La Brea Tar Pits? There are no La Brea Tar Pits in Scotland (http://video.aol.com/video/tv-my-bunny-lies-over-the-sea/1789262)!

????
What is WRONG with you?
BOTH of the preceding posts re the "Cave-arts" were sourced on apocrypha purporting to account for the earliest days/founding of "Chicagoland" (aka "a large pile of rocks").....
(ok, maybe we've got to include Disneyworld, too)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ah yes, Cave-o-saurus... not bad, for a fake style that is

Reply]
The style is not fake. I learned about it in an old library book on prehistoric cave paintings. The entire style was codefied on a cave wall by our caveman ancestors. I was able to decipher the cave paintings from the pictures in the text book, and thus revive the style in the 1990's.

Right now, I am the only known prehysterical Grandmaster of the style, but I have issued several Black Pelts and one mastership since I began teaching it.

If you doubt the legitimacy of the art you can go to E-budo.com and search out my senior disciple yamatodamashii and ask him. He was my very first Black Pelt and is now a Master of the art in his own right.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

????
What is WRONG with you?
BOTH of the preceding posts re the "Cave-arts" were sourced on apocrypha purporting to account for the earliest days/founding of "Chicagoland" (aka "a large pile of rocks").....
(ok, maybe we've got to include Disneyworld, too)

Reply]
Cavasaurus Combat predates Chicago by about 170,000 years.

[bakxierboxer]

Right now, I am the only known prehysterical Grandmaster of the style....

OTOH, you've been "at it" long enough now that it's redundant to say that you're "pre-" anything.... you may henceforth simply consider yourself and your writings as hysterical... :cool:
(in whatever sense seems most appropriate at the time) :D

[bakxierboxer]

BOTH of the preceding posts re the "Cave-arts" were sourced on apocrypha purporting to account for the earliest days/founding of "Chicagoland" (aka "a large pile of rocks").....
(ok, maybe we've got to include Disneyworld, too)

Reply]
Cavasaurus Combat predates Chicago by about 170,000 years.

Possibly, but that same pile of rocks is still there.....

[BlueTravesty]

Ah yes, Cave-o-saurus... not bad, for a fake style that is

Reply]
The style is not fake. I learned about it in an old library book on prehistoric cave paintings. The entire style was codefied on a cave wall by our caveman ancestors. I was able to decipher the cave paintings from the pictures in the text book, and thus revive the style in the 1990's.

Right now, I am the only known prehysterical Grandmaster of the style, but I have issued several Black Pelts and one mastership since I began teaching it.

If you doubt the legitimacy of the art you can go to E-budo.com and search out my senior disciple yamatodamashii and ask him. He was my very first Black Pelt and is now a Master of the art in his own right.

Oh yeah? Well I learned my style by dreaming about an immortal who learned the style by stumbling by a conveniently lost manuscript written by a monk who learned it by dream-visitation from Guan Yu (who told me to tell you "Wuz Up, Homes!" by the way.) who learned it by watching fish duel in a steam, and the fish were the reincarnated souls of the sabertooth and the mammoth who were having visions of Grand Poo-Bah Ugh!! If we're using circa 1800's "tall tale" CMA History standards, I just trumped every fighting style out there.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Caveasaurus Combat goes back at least 160,000 to 180,000 years and possibly further if it was actually developed by pre ****saipen humans (Neanderthal, Cromagnon etc...).

Modern man emerged roughly 180,000 to 200,000 years ago depending on what archaeological source you are siting. Pre ****saipien humans actually go back several millions of years though, and Cavesaurus Combat may very well be that old.

Also, some version or another of the 3 original empty hand techniques exists in just about every art, proving they all descended from Cavasaurus Combat; thus proving it is the undisputed original martial art style.

You just cannot beat that type of authenticity.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The problem is that most of the Islam/Muslim we see has a very violent, domineering bent to it and is filled with putrid, senseless hatred. That bent to it is much more vocal and in your face, and it obscours other facets,

[Shaolin Wookie]

The founding fathers of our country were mostly diests who had a great respect for classical Greek philosophy.

Philosophy they would not have had access to had the Muslims not preseved it. In fact they preseved philosphies that directly contradicted the Quran. Spanish Guitar and most European medical advances came through the Muslims who were proponents of science. They also peacefully coexisted with Christians in Spain.

Muslims had an influence in most art, music and literature enjoyed by the world today. Romeo and Juliet? Taken from the Arabs. Coffee, frankinscence, myrh, all discovered by muslims. Ginger in food? Thank the Muslims. Chivalry? Preseved medical works of Greece? Its likely that your martial art was influenced or preserved by muslims. Many trusted and respected Chinese were Hui including Zheng He, the famous navigator. Chinese find Islam to be very compatable with Confuciansim and Muslims find Taoist philosophy to be the most compatable with Islam.

In fact, Islam is more alligned with traditional American values than Christianity. Islam permits one to defend oneself and ones family and infact encourages you to defend yourself and your property. It also encourages a direct personal relationship with God, with no intercessors. No mullahs, no demi god. No middleman. Culturally Saudi's may do this, but it is culture and not the religion or philosophy of Islam.

The majority of Muslims on Earth are not Arabs, they are Asian. And they don't care at all about mullahs. When you say Muslims can't be American you are saying that people of every nation who follow a particular religion can't be American. This is an unAmerican statement. America is based on certain princibles, freedom of religion is one of them. Many muslims come to America to practice their religion freely which they can not do in their own countries.

I have American Muslim friends who are proud and patriotic. I have one friend who suspected election fraud in the last election. He took action and created a voting system that is fraud proof which major experts in the US and abroad are hailing. His religion taught him patience and service to his community and country.

Islam forbids debt, credit cards, ideas in line with ussury laws in early America. Since those have been revoked, the divide between rich and poor is ever widening.

Most Muslims don't go converting people. They don't want Americans to convert to Islam so much as the simply live by the Christianity they claim to be apart of.

Living with Saudies does not make you an expert on one of the largest religions on Earth.

LOL....don't make the mistake of thinking that because the Moors and the Muslims "preserved" these texts that they held them in high regard. Several attempts were made to destroy the ones they had in hand; and you can read Averroes' (pretty much a sceptic in his day..who once said Judaism is the religion of little children; Christinanity that of impossibility; and Islam is the religion of pigs...LOL...) successful attempt to protect them in the Tahafut al-Tahafut. The Muslims loved to burn books, just like Christian rabble that sent Alexandria up in flames....and Averroes and his crew barely saved Aristotle from the firepits.

BTW, don't romance either side's role in history. Islam is just as ****ty....I mean, shady as Christianity, and both of them have equally ridiculous religions with equally ridiculous beliefs, with equally violent, opressive, and hateful histories (although, like I said before, both have good aspects as well--but they had nothing to do with the religion itself, so much as what it facilitated through a "coordinated group effort"). As a footnote to bring the issue down a peg, though, Islam only detests usury because it isn't particularly fond of the Jews (seemingly the only ethnic group of the region with that financial power). As for Islam being more in line with America's Constitutional principles.....yeah, and that's why we based our models of government on the "englightened" socieites of the Tigris and Euphrates....LOL.....that's a joke. I don't doubt you have a patriotic Muslim friend, just like I don't doubt that my father is a patriot and a Christian. But their religions have nothing to do with patriotic zeal, despite the fact their religions preach it. We don't stone people for cussing at their parents, or committing adultery, or bowing down before golden calves. And we don't make people wear birkas.

Jesus rode a donkey over palm leaves, Mohammed rode one into heaven.

Personally, I think whoever rides on either of their coattails is an ass.

As for Asians being Islamic.......well, there are lots of countries that speak French (le monde francophone) who are not French by nationality. Why is that?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay, I'll answer. Like the French who colonized Africa and East Asia, it was through a combination of conquest and trade (the Indian muslims controlled a great deal of trade in Asia). There were always motivations that influenced conversion far beyond the tenets of Islam, Christianity, etc. Let's not get too misty-eyed for the days of yore.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh, and RD.......

































You still didn't see a UFO. :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You still didn't see a UFO

Reply]
Actually, they reopened my case because the object I saw has been seen by others in recent months as well as mile long Triangles.

What I saw may not have been piloted by little green men, but it was an object I cannot identify (apparently no one else can either), and it was flying. Also, others have been seeing it of late now too.

[The Willow Sword]

Eating in a chinese restaurant and they started talking about religion. In fact they started talking about Jews and Judaism. "Wow" said one of the guys,"There sure are alot of jews in the world". "No doubt",said the other guy,"we got american jews and polish jews and russian jews and italian jews and french jews and even british jews". "WAIT!!" Says the other guy " I wonder if there are any CHINESE JEWS?" "Well" says the second guy " We're in a chinese joint, lets ask?"
So one of the guys calls over the waiter and asks him "uhh sir we have been talking about religion and all the jews in the world and we were wondering if there are any Chinese Jews?" The Chinese waiter looks at the guy and says "Hold on i will go check". He is gone for a moment and then returns with a big smile on his face and says " Im so sorry sir but we do not have any chinese jews, we have orange juice, grape juice and apple juice".

BADUMBUM Shhhhhh!!:D:p:) TWS

[BlueTravesty]

Eating in a chinese restaurant and they started talking about religion. In fact they started talking about Jews and Judaism. "Wow" said one of the guys,"There sure are alot of jews in the world". "No doubt",said the other guy,"we got american jews and polish jews and russian jews and italian jews and french jews and even british jews". "WAIT!!" Says the other guy " I wonder if there are any CHINESE JEWS?" "Well" says the second guy " We're in a chinese joint, lets ask?"
So one of the guys calls over the waiter and asks him "uhh sir we have been talking about religion and all the jews in the world and we were wondering if there are any Chinese Jews?" The Chinese waiter looks at the guy and says "Hold on i will go check". He is gone for a moment and then returns with a big smile on his face and says " Im so sorry sir but we do not have any chinese jews, we have orange juice, grape juice and apple juice".

BADUMBUM Shhhhhh!!:D:p:) TWS

Nice :P Didn't they use that bit in "18 fingers of death" too?

[Becca]

Eating in a chinese restaurant and they started talking about religion. In fact they started talking about Jews and Judaism. "Wow" said one of the guys,"There sure are alot of jews in the world". "No doubt",said the other guy,"we got american jews and polish jews and russian jews and italian jews and french jews and even british jews". "WAIT!!" Says the other guy " I wonder if there are any CHINESE JEWS?" "Well" says the second guy " We're in a chinese joint, lets ask?"
So one of the guys calls over the waiter and asks him "uhh sir we have been talking about religion and all the jews in the world and we were wondering if there are any Chinese Jews?" The Chinese waiter looks at the guy and says "Hold on i will go check". He is gone for a moment and then returns with a big smile on his face and says " Im so sorry sir but we do not have any chinese jews, we have orange juice, grape juice and apple juice".

BADUMBUM Shhhhhh!!:D:p:) TWS
lol!!! nice to see I wasn't the only one thinking of that joke wilst reading this thread!:D