Another Grandmaster of WCK [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

reneritchie

02-22-2008, 07:09 PM

If we westernize the Si-To relationship into the master/apprentice paradigm in trade and craft, and we accept the usage of the parent to grand parent progression, then sifu being master, sigung (sifu's sifu) would be grand-master (and sijo would be ancestral master).

If we westernize to the master/slave paradigm, in language (and worse, behavior), then we need startling intervention, asap.

So, using westernized terms like master or grandmaster, while counter to the familial convention of Chinese martial arts, and more than a wee bit pretentious in common usage (like a judge calling himself "My Honor"), could be useful in an archaic or commercial marketing sense.

For most, I think sifu, sigung, etc., properly and familial-ly expressed, is probably better karma. :)

viper

02-22-2008, 08:16 PM

That guy was a nut! not in a good way

Liddel

02-22-2008, 10:50 PM

"without any shadow of a doubt he is the pinnacle of the martial arts in the entire world"

Gotta love his devotion.....

Id love to set a match between him and GSP or Chuck just to set the record straight on that one LOL.

namron

02-22-2008, 11:14 PM

the mind boggles................

couch

02-23-2008, 06:39 AM

Well, if that's not a joke - I don't know what is.

Too funny. Love the Chi Blasts and when he throws the guy in the water.

Kenton

couch

02-23-2008, 06:40 AM

Well, if that's not a joke - I don't know what is.

Too funny. Love the Chi Blasts and when he throws the guy in the water.

Kenton

But, yeah, okay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyt8AC9QrlY&feature=related

Good stuff.

IRONMONK

02-23-2008, 07:47 AM

I'm assuming that is Sid Sofos based on what I've heard about him!!

His brother Andrew Sofos doesn't speak to him and he seems normal compared to Sid Sofos.

I have heard rumours that Sid Sofo's was arrested for masturbating in public but i'm not sure if that is true!!

KPM

02-23-2008, 08:00 AM

Give me a break! What is he....the "Grandmaster" of the "Brooklyn Shuffle" style of Wing Chun? :eek:

Ali. R

02-23-2008, 08:28 AM

I don’t believe this is happening, and I can’t even get away with sarcasm without my post being deleted…

Mercy gentleman mercy, just have mercy… :(:mad::(

Ali Rahim.

Ali. R

02-23-2008, 09:40 AM

I don’t use the title for religious reason, but was cursed with it anyway… I’m not being funky or anything like that, but it seems that only the ones that has not fell in line within an authentic system to have such a title given to them through hard work (which are a lot of them out there), are the ones that have difference or somewhat negative energy towards them (titles)…

Most will never get pass sifu, yet alone make master…

Not because their sifu says so, but their own ability will tell on them also (lazy, want something for nothing), and just want nothing more but being down through association…

No true fighting skills...

Ali Rahim.

UKBBC

02-23-2008, 10:40 AM

Wow,

The man has a home page too:

http://www.thesijo.com/home.htm

A true practioner of self-love it seems...:rolleyes:

KPM

02-24-2008, 08:18 AM

I don’t believe this is happening, and I can’t even get away with sarcasm without my post being deleted…

Mercy gentleman mercy, just have mercy… :(:mad::(

Ali Rahim.

---I don't think the reaction that you see here is due to the fact that he carries the title of "Grandmaster." I think the reaction here is due to his shameless self-aggrandizement and self-promotion. When someone comes across as he did in those videos, it has "charlatan" written all over it! I have no problem with the legitimate use of the term "Grandmaster", although as Rene pointed out there are numerous ways to define the term. In your case Ali, it certainly sounds legit and I don't recall you ever coming across like Sid Sofos did in those videos.

Ali. R

02-24-2008, 06:18 PM

,,,although as Rene pointed out there are numerous ways to define the term. In your case Ali, it certainly sounds legit and I don't recall you ever coming across like Sid Sofos did in those videos.

I understand what you’re saying and didn’t really mean any harm… But just those who don’t or will never have that title (Master or Grandmaster) within their reach, wishes to modify of change that ideal, and it’s like that on every forum that I’ve visit…

To me, that’s a slap in the face to all the families of different wing chun greats, who follows the ideal of line-lineage (next in line to carry on)…

Just out of respect alone to those wing chun families that are legitimate and good wing chun practitioners, we should reframe from having such ideals which are expressed to the public…

And when someone who hates or somewhat dislike the title ideal (well just the part that they’re never reach) and is an wing chun figure who people looks up to, then the same thing that one is trying to point out to others about the title ideal, falls right back into their own laps, and that’s like the pot calling the kettle black…

By making such statements, sifu is just as worst or bad as “Grandmaster” or “Master”…

There are Really some real BS sufus out there too…

Ali Rahim.

Ali. R

02-25-2008, 04:10 AM

Forgive me if I was too harsh…

Ali Rahim.

Ali. R

02-25-2008, 09:58 AM

If one really trains hard, and listen then comprehends what is taught and can display what he has learned, then to others it’s about one self rather then the long years of comprehension and hard work (especially for those who don’t work hard)...

Because when one has failed just about every physical endeavor that there wing chun has asked them to, their hearts become harden when they see those who can execute…

When one can understand wing chun and the “Kune kuit” when watching a grandmaster or master in action, then they will look beyond just movement… Its not about what one can do physically, its about what one truly understand…

And If one can understand that concept then one should understand that one has to be a mind reader to measure ones skill within the “Kune kuit”, because the “Kune kuit” is never seen (only by the trained eye), but only felt (just like good wing chun should be)…

Religion or anything has nothing to do with it, comprehension and hard work then execution, when one cannot execute then one will find all kinds of excuses to show their prowess over those who can execute…

The reason why one cannot execute, is because ones comprehensions is not truly there yet, and they are trying to move well beyond their means OR UNDERSTANDING... Hence; always needing something to supplement their so-called strong understanding of the art, BS…

Ali Rahim

Ali. R

02-25-2008, 03:06 PM

If one cannot master his physical realms in the art he has a title in, and has not truly pass the entire concept’s (physically) of their art in practice or being able to really fight with the art in question…

Then it will be many more years before one can related to the “Kune Kuit”, with their narrow understanding of such basic things as structure, movements, distance and energies ect...

If one cannot master his physical realms then the mind set will always drop the physical ideal or application, then mastery will always be out of the question…

A true master does not fight with force or with just movements, when one truly understands; the older man will nearly always defeat the younger man…

When one masters his physical realms, that knowledge will become second nature in which he will carry with him into his latter days having a database of instinctive memory with physical attributes…

And his thoughts will become clean as glass when executing...

Ali Rahim.

petervasylenko

02-26-2008, 06:43 AM

Im finding it hard to believe he is for real. If you can imagine this guy as a Chris Morris creation, it is comedy genius.

Ali. R

02-26-2008, 08:44 AM

Im finding it hard to believe he is for real. If you can imagine this guy as a Chris Morris creation, it is comedy genius.

Could you please point out the inconsistencies of my posting, I’m’ sure you can, especially to make such a statement like that?

Maybe it will be a little hard for you to so, considering that your statement makes no sense at all, that's like fixing a computer with a hammer (having no premise)...

Could you tell us what you have experience in you 30 years of training, I’m sure you know what makes a “Master” am I right?…

Ali Rahim.

KPM

02-26-2008, 08:52 AM

Could you please point out the inconsistencies of my posting, I’m’ sure you can, especially to make such a statement like that?

Maybe it will be a little hard for you to so, considering that your statement makes no sense at all, that's like fixing a computer with a hammer (having no premise)...

Ali Rahim.

Lighten up Ali! I took the poster to be referring to the video of Sid Sofos that started this whole thread!

Ali. R

02-26-2008, 08:58 AM

Lighten up Ali! I took the poster to be referring to the video of Sid Sofos that started this whole thread!

I’m sorry, I may have made a mistake, I’m not for sure though…

I have no problem with anyone on this thread; the subject of master came up so I elaborated on what I feel a master is, that’s all… I haven’t attack anyone, but yet I’m under attack or not...

This whole thing is not about me I’m sure of that… But the way the post felled right under mine and without a quote of the post he was referring too…

Why should I waste my time dragging someone through the mud?

monji112000

02-26-2008, 11:36 AM

Awesomely awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIv06JqVZc

funny guy.

Ali. R

02-26-2008, 05:39 PM

Confidence and perseverance plays a major roll in your development; don’t get distracted, master the level that you’re on and nothing more… In this twisted world today that we live in, people are judging some base on what they think one can’t do or understand… In other words it’s not how good you are, but how good one can become…

Ali Rahim.

UKBBC

02-27-2008, 07:57 AM

… In other words it’s not how good you are, but how good one can become…

Power and the Will = Vision?! :D

reneritchie

02-27-2008, 02:01 PM

AndrewS

02-27-2008, 02:38 PM

Rene,

I'm a coach. My guys are part of a team. My goal is to get them better and get them to be able to coach, so they can help all of us get better.

I have no use for 'master'.

Andrew

Phil Redmond

02-27-2008, 02:42 PM

Hi Rene, can you direct me to or email me the Chinese character for transmitter? I could only find transmit in my dictionary. I like the term coach that Ernie uses.

HardWork8

02-27-2008, 02:44 PM

I was once asked to make a name card for a Chinese Wing Chun Kuen teacher. He'd trained under his teacher for a dozen or so years, and after moving away, continued training and teaching for two dozen more.

I set up the card under the name "Sifu" (in Chinese and English).

Upon reviewing the draft, the gentleman requested a change. He wanted a different set of characters used, which meant "transmitter"

He said "My sifu is still alive, and so he is the sifu, I am merely a transmitter of sifu's knowldge".

30+ years in and he was a merely "transmitter", yet in the West we have magazine after webpage of nascent "Masters", "Grandmasters", "Demi Gods" and more...

....and unfortunately these "Masters","Grand Masters" & so on, are Transmitters too, that is, transmitters of many of the misunderstanding and misconceptions that one sees in the MA world in general and sometimes even in forums such as these.

It is a sad state of affairs and where and when will it end?

Very good post.

HardWork8

02-27-2008, 02:46 PM

Hi Rene, can you direct me to or email me the Chinese character for transmitter? I could only find transmit in my dictionary. I like the term coach that Ernie uses.

It is my understanding that the term "master" has a far deeper meaning than just coach.

Phil Redmond

02-27-2008, 03:12 PM

It is my understanding that the term "master" has a far deeper meaning than just coach.
I looked up Master in my Cantonese dictionary and one of the defintions was Sifu. Though I'm considered a Master, I introduce myself as Sifu.

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 03:19 PM

A true Master knows himself… Humble is the man that can hand over his legacy, especially when he is no longer able to perform physically, and watch something that has develop or turn into 20 folds of his imagination, and that shouldn’t diminish his important roll over all; as being simply the creator of the system, after all its named after himself…

My sifu never wanted me to drag him around at his age, like so many do in this business, trying to save face to the rest of the world on how they are and whom they are… My sifu always told me, “If you are good enough, you will never need me”, and so far I really haven’t (no more then three occasions)… When its over its over, don’t fool yourself, unless you’re hungry for the money or the prestige, to each his own…

Ali Rahim.

KPM

02-27-2008, 03:22 PM

I prefer the term "coach" as well. It just fits better with what is expected of a martial arts instructor in the west. How am I treating my students any different than the local high school or college wrestling coach would? He is teaching them a physical activity, guiding their training and conditioning, and offering advice about living. I don't buy into the that whole "family" thing where you have to prove yourself worthy, take on an "adopted" oriental name, and swear undying allegiance for all time. I don't think most westerners buy into that kind of thing either. But the paradigm we are all used to in the west is that of a Coach-Athlete relationship. That relationship can produce a life-long bond, but it isn't necessarily expected to.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 03:26 PM

Hi Rene, can you direct me to or email me the Chinese character for transmitter? I could only find transmit in my dictionary. I like the term coach that Ernie uses.

Thanks Phil ,,, but I can take credit for it got the Idea from 2 sources
1. WSL considered himself a coach [ as a coach serves a purpose to prepare 'players/fighters'] not just sit on his a$$
2. My old boxing coach =) he made it a point to put in as much work as his fighters and never got fat or sloppy to this day he is still in great shape and still works with his fighters hands on and is way past his years of hard sparring ,,, but still packs a punch and moves nice

the term master seems waaaaay to self involved ,,, and presumptions as if there is some finish line to the learning process ,, your always a student the day that you stop being a '' humble '' student is the day you start to go backwards ,,,,, so there is no '' magic level of enlightenment '' leave that for the Shaw brothers =)

just like the idea of masters or GGM and all that very outdated and full of pumped up egos BS stories and heavy serving of Fantasy Fu

best to leave the masters for there sheep empty minds that need to be '' mastered'' and told what to think and do and believe ;)

HardWork8

02-27-2008, 03:33 PM

I looked up Master in my Cantonese dictionary and one of the defintions was Sifu. Though I'm considered a Master, I introduce myself as Sifu.

I was taught that a master possesses a profound understanding of his art. I have also come across sifus that are excellent exponents of their arts, but refuse to call themselves masters, and this is not because they prefer to use a different term, but rather because, they know that they are NOT there yet.

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 03:36 PM

,,,and told what to think and do and believe ;)

The same as a football coach does, a boxing coach and a baseball coach ect, and most of all a school teacher also… The only deference are the titles… :cool:

Ali Rahim.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 03:40 PM

The same as a football coach does, a boxing coach and a baseball coach ect, and most of all a school teacher also… The only deference are the titles… :cool:

Ali Rahim.

not really ,, truth comes from being an individual on the field or in the ring hands on experience is the '' master'' ,,, coaches produce thinkers and individuals with free expression '' self guided ''

masters produce D@ck riders , and parrots that just spew hand me down experience :cool: and the occasional cult mentality LOL

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 03:54 PM

No one caters to me but only with hard work, I’m nothing special so I will never allow that to happen, I’m following my sifu example, when the point guard hogs the ball about 9 out of 10 times, he will blow the game for the team, and were I’m from coaches nearly always break the rules (just like most practitioners wing chun, instant gratification) to only make themselves look good … So what about the team?

Ali Rahim.

Phil Redmond

02-27-2008, 03:58 PM

I was taught that a master possesses a profound understanding of his art. I have also come across sifus that are excellent exponents of their arts, but refuse to call themselves masters, and this is not because they prefer to use a different term, but rather because, they know that they are NOT there yet.
We have a grading structure which requires a Master to be tested on all the previous levels, write a Thesis, and even contribute something to the system
which does promote "thinkers". At present there ae three of us in TWC. So I am Master level in our system yet I still learn. ;)

AndrewS

02-27-2008, 03:59 PM

Ernie- nailed it.

Once again, 'coach' and 'team'. At the end of the day, those of us who coach and build people as part of a team, treat those we train as equals and partners, will deal with far fewer weird daddy issues than people in the Chinese language and funny pajamas game, and, hour for hour training, will get better, 'cos our guys will coach us back, try to hit us, and not let our bad habits sit.

Andrew

'10% of what I'm telling you is probably wrong; when you figure out what it is, please let me know'- statement I always make in the first few practices.

HardWork8

02-27-2008, 04:16 PM

We have a grading structure which requires a Master to be tested on all the previous levels, write a Thesis, and even contribute something to the system
which does promote "thinkers". At present there ae three of us in TWC. So I am Master level in our system yet I still learn. ;)

I understand:). I suppose it is just the approach. In my school's way of thinking one becomes an expert first and THEN one may or may not become a "master".

Eventhough, one will generally need to be qualified (by others) as an expert,but to become a master one will need to get there by oneself and he or she will know once he or she gets there, no one need to tell you that you have profound knowledge of your art, because the fact that you do, makes you aware of that reality.

As I said, it is a different and maybe a more traditional approach, but it is valid all the same.:)

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 04:18 PM

Ernie

02-27-2008, 04:28 PM

And if one does not listen to his coach that is in the corner when he is fighting, he will take a lost just about every time he fights, because his coach sees things that he can’t see and the coach’s experience can very much help bring in a victory…

You turn you back on your coach then you turn on the whole game plan... And if one half a$$ listens from the start, then where is the game plan, sound like seminar babies to me... :cool:

Ali Rahim.

A good coach would never let you '' think '' you know how to fight ,, he would prepare
you for the experience ,,,, because every ''good/real'' coach nows experience is the only real teacher ,,,,
all a coach can do is help expose you to the experiences '' He'' is aware of ,,
he should also send you out to seek the experience of others if he really cares about your growth ,,, more then a ego hand job or $

winning and losing are just parts of the whole :cool:

But most TMA are to busy playing dress up and pretend ,,, with funky little titles :D

they lack the honesty of a coach ;)

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 04:34 PM

Ernie

02-27-2008, 04:41 PM

A good coach is one who helps guides his fighter through his experience and not just set him lose with no hands on directions when fighting, and it’s a lot of those guys with funky little titles that can really kick a$$…

Coaches are people to, they lie and cheat also…

Ali Rahim.

it's why you need a solid moral compass and never buy into any mans BS and never suck up to there BS stories and propaganda

as they say '' a fool and his $ will soon part '' and '' a sucka born every minute ''

world is full of stupid people that want to be told what to do ,,,,,trick is not to be one of chumps ;)

look for the red flags ,, terms like '' master'' are a huge one

edit ,,,, and most Sifu's and masters are known for being crooks chasing hookers, doing drugs and gambling LOL whats your point

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 04:51 PM

When one takes the time to defy that a coach has more morals then a master, isn’t that propaganda also, LOL, LOL?

I know of a whole lot of coaches being crooks chasing hookers, doing drugs and gambling just in high school and collage circuits alone, which is all over the news as we speak today... So what’s your point?

No title can defy a person’s personality...

Ali Rahim.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 04:52 PM

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 04:56 PM

I have to many as we speak, thanks but no thanks…

No title can defy a person’s personality, talk about your propaganda...

Ali Rahim.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 04:58 PM

I have to many as we speak, thanks but no thanks…

No title can defy a person’s personality...

Ali Rahim.

a man will be judged by the truth of his words and actions

:p

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 05:14 PM

My words and action are on point in this case, and if one wishes to judge me then so be it, but that will never stop my words and action, and I see you made it into a battle with name calling and all, rather then having an intelligent forum conversation, and that speaks in volumes “coach”…

And most coaches’ that I know reacts just like that… :cool:

Ali Rahim.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 05:18 PM

My words and action are on point in this case, and if one wishes to judge me then so be it, but that will never stop my words and action, and I see you made it into battle with name calling and all, rather then having an intelligent forum conversation, and that speaks in volumes “coach”…

And most coaches’ that know reacts just like that… :cool:

Ali Rahim.

cool what ever makes you happy :cool:

my honesty and truth have never been doubted ,,,, on this forum or anywhere else ,,not everyone can say the same now can they ;)

I wish you the best of luck ''walking in the masters footsteps ''

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 05:23 PM

Oh it was in doubt, but like my sifu said: knowledge and skill will defy all…
No one here can make or break me, so I don’t need my ego stroked... :D:cool:

Ali Rahim.

Ernie

02-27-2008, 05:30 PM

Good , then I truly wish you the best of luck on your personal journey ,,,
and leave you with this final thought to ponder

Coaches are '' generally not in the business of selling the '' ART OF PRETEND FIGHTING '' ...... now Sifu's , Sensei,, Masters,,Etc,,,,, have a much different track record,,,,

Personally I would not want to be lumped in with them ,,, but Hey that's just me what do I know ,, I'm just a simple coach ;)

But seriously may your road bring you joy :)

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 05:31 PM

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

reneritchie

02-27-2008, 07:16 PM

Phil,

I'll have to track through my old Windows files, but I'll find it for you!

I recall that in old Chinese articles about Yuen and Sum they used the characters "Go Sao" (High Hand) to mean someone of advanced skill.

Andrew,

I like coach as well, though it does flood me with Best of the Best memories:

Eric Roberts: Coach he's gonna kill him!
James Earl Jones: NO!
ER: Tommy!
JEJ: NO!

Museumtech

02-27-2008, 08:05 PM

KPM Wrote: I prefer the term "coach" as well. It just fits better with what is expected of a martial arts instructor in the west. How am I treating my students any different than the local high school or college wrestling coach would?

Keith, here in Oz we don't have college sporting coaches or the like and we are part of the West, aren't we (tongue firmly in-cheek)? I see your point, however, and those that everybody else has been making over the last few days. I would like to offer one Australian point of view.

In my experience we have a coach for a team, who trains players, drills plays and directs procedure on game day. In individual sports, including fighting, one would have a coach (or several) while actively pursuing and competing in your field. But in the general learning of any of the martial arts we have instructors. You may be required to call the instructor sensai or sifi or what ever as a courtesy. The terms Master and Grand Master are used (and abused) here as well, but generally they are a designation that defines the level of understanding and the ability achieved, for Master and the term reserved for the current ultimate authority of the style for Grand Master. They are not used when addressing the instructor. This is very much as I understood Phil to say in one of his posts.

For what it's worth at GM Cheung school in Melbourne all of the instructors are now addressed as sihing and the Grandmaster simply as sifu.

Peter

Ali. R

02-27-2008, 09:37 PM

I like the term coach as well, in the movie “Blue Chips” Staring Nick Nolte… :D

Ali Rahim.

namron

02-28-2008, 03:44 AM

I get the feeling that 'coach' as put forward by others might be closer to the western version of a 'trainer' ( akin to a personal trainer) in that they are pushing for improvement on an individual level, where as coach in aussie reminds me a bit of a footy club :)

Instructor or teacher (sifu or other foreign derivative) IMO can still include conveying knowledge to a group, whether that 'student' listens/learns or not is another thing entirely, as is whether the teacher cares for the students progress.

Its a lot of semantics really, but 'coaching' IMO as expressed by Ernie and others seems closer to personal one on one training and development as opposed to education of the masses. :D

Ernie, feel free to dump dog Sh!T on my philosophical banter.....:p

KPM Wrote: I prefer the term "coach" as well. It just fits better with what is expected of a martial arts instructor in the west. How am I treating my students any different than the local high school or college wrestling coach would?

Keith, here in Oz we don't have college sporting coaches or the like and we are part of the West, aren't we (tongue firmly in-cheek)? I see your point, however, and those that everybody else has been making over the last few days. I would like to offer one Australian point of view.

In my experience we have a coach for a team, who trains players, drills plays and directs procedure on game day. In individual sports, including fighting, one would have a coach (or several) while actively pursuing and competing in your field. But in the general learning of any of the martial arts we have instructors. You may be required to call the instructor sensai or sifi or what ever as a courtesy. The terms Master and Grand Master are used (and abused) here as well, but generally they are a designation that defines the level of understanding and the ability achieved, for Master and the term reserved for the current ultimate authority of the style for Grand Master. They are not used when addressing the instructor. This is very much as I understood Phil to say in one of his posts.

For what it's worth at GM Cheung school in Melbourne all of the instructors are now addressed as sihing and the Grandmaster simply as sifu.

Peter

CFT

02-28-2008, 03:58 AM

Hi Rene, can you direct me to or email me the Chinese character for transmitter? I could only find transmit in my dictionary. I like the term coach that Ernie uses.Transmitter = 傳人

傳 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B6%C7
人 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A4H

Coach = 教練

教 = teach - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B1%D0
練 = practice, drill, exercise, train - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%BDm

bakxierboxer

02-28-2008, 05:16 AM

I recall that in old Chinese articles about Yuen and Sum they used the characters "Go Sao" (High Hand) to mean someone of advanced skill.

That's true in many Southern arts.... even Tibetan-based White Crane.

sanjuro_ronin

02-28-2008, 05:54 AM

bakxierboxer

02-28-2008, 06:24 AM

I think the term "teacher" is more than enough.
Outside the JMA where people tend to use the title "sensei" ( more than that is never used, I even recall hearing a 9th dan say that the term sensei is more then enough for any man) I use my name or sometimes they can call me coach.
I don't think that any term holds a higher prestige than "teacher".

... except for those who, in spite of "certification", manage to degrade the profession.
Some of our so-called "educational institutions" are just chock full of 'em.

sanjuro_ronin

02-28-2008, 06:28 AM

... except for those who, in spite of "certification", manage to degrade the profession.
Some of our so-called "educational institutions" are just chock full of 'em.

True, typically people that don't hold the term "teacher" in high esteem.
In any profession there are good professional and then there are those that give the profession a bad name.
Teaching is more a calling then profession and like most callings, there are always some that view it as "just a job".

bakxierboxer

02-28-2008, 07:43 AM

True, typically people that don't hold the term "teacher" in high esteem.
In any profession there are good professional and then there are those that give the profession a bad name.
Teaching is more a calling then profession and like most callings, there are always some that view it as "just a job".

Or worse.
Some only view it as "a means to an end".... "marking time" until they get their pension.

Ernie

02-28-2008, 08:00 AM

Its a lot of semantics really, but 'coaching' IMO as expressed by Ernie and others seems closer to personal one on one training and development as opposed to education of the masses. :D

Ernie, feel free to dump dog Sh!T on my philosophical banter.....:p

No turd dumping needed ,,,, In my mind it is more like a personal trainer [ what could be more personal then trading shots with some one ! ]

people are trusting [ and paying ] you with what could '' possibly '' be dealing with a spontaneous violent encounter .....

were lives might be at risk

that's a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly , you should be there hands on every step of the way to share your personal knowledge expose them to uncomfortable situations to develop conditioned reactions in environments to gain personal experience ,,,, then take them to other people more skilled then yourself
encourage them to research on there own ...

it's not about collecting students , grand students and all that mess [ that's business ]

it's about whats best for the people that are putting trust in you ,,

so look out for red flags .

Funky self made titles , big organizations . levels , belts certificates [ yep i have them but they don't matter and i don't certify people LOL ]

and a big red flag is a guy that's sole income is teaching / running a school / or org

this puts his priority on '' eating and living '' not the people IMO

Wing chun is a huge pyramid scam

people ''sell'' the illusion of pretend fighting ,,,,,,,,, and the sheep line up ,, Baahh I want to be like Grand master BAHHH I want to be like sifu ,, BBAAHH he loves me more he will tell me the special inner circle secret ,,,ETc,,,

Just look at the clown that was the start of this thread ;)

Ali. R

02-28-2008, 08:19 AM

Teaching is more a calling then profession and like most callings, there are always some that view it as "just a job".

I’m not looking for a pat on the back… I have help students with their rent, food sometime their families stayed at my home when they have no where to go…

I have a 20-foot speed boat that I let my student’s use to go fishing to help feed their families... Let’s face it gentlemen, someone has to stand up and help those that are in need…

I’m blessed and by being blessed, I will help those in need by giving blessing…

To me it’s more then a job, I truly, really care for my students, just as my sifu did for me…

Not just my student, but for just about anyone in need...

My wife and I even help buy clothing for some of their children, just as my sifu did for me...

And no one kow tow to me, ever, I WON’T allow it…

Ali Rahim.

Phil Redmond

02-28-2008, 09:58 AM

. . . and a big red flag is a guy that's sole income is teaching /

Hey Ernie you mean like Yip Man? ;)
No pretend fighting at our school We bang bro. I teach full time and so does Keith Mazza. Our school is open all day so that students can come and train even between class time. If they have questions or need help we are there for them. Some people come and train all day when they are on vacation. You are right in some instances but not in our case. I've known Keith about 30 years and we remember the old Chinatown days when non-Chinese were not welcome and were taught differently from the Chinese students. So we make sure students get quality teaching.
So they don't go through jump through hoops to get information like we had to do.
We want students to think for themselves. We always say 'don't live in a box'.
There's no dogma here. You'd have to visit our school to see what I mean.
We are like a family here and we strive for good quality students who can prove their abilities in point and full contact events and some are champions.

We train boxers including a professional at the NJ school.The boxers wouldn't be there if they didn't see the effectiveness of what we're teaching. We have the best of both worlds. The familial one on one "coach" environment and we do it with a number of students. Sometime we may have three other Sifus teaching in one class to give some individual instruction to anyone who may need it. The advantage of having lots of students is that they get to work on many different body types during a class. So the 'red flag' idea doesn't stand in our case and probably other schools.
One of the good thing about an open forum is that people have different views. You've expressed yours and here's mine.
Having a large school doesn't mean people are sheep or that they don't get good instruction. Teaching full time doesn't make you a bad teacher. It could mean that you got tired of having a boss, punching a clock and want to be your own boss doing what you love to do. And I must love what I'm doing because I'm not making the big bucks. ;)

Ernie

02-28-2008, 10:09 AM

LOL ,,, I was waiting for you on that one phil ,,,, ;)

but be honest bro ,,, best training one ever gets is one on one [ old school back yard style ] or with a small group of guys that are all on the same page

no fluff just cats all on the same page ,,
as for Yip ,,, amazing what the need to eat and a opium habit can do eh ! :eek:

on the real ,, we do have different views on this stuff ,, you know i would be shot if i was caught in a uniform with a silk belt LOL ,,, hell i would shoot myself !!!

but i wont deny that you got game brother ,, I respect you very much on that level ...

now come visit cali again so we can listen to some good live music , have some drinks and trade pak saus ;)

Phil Redmond

02-28-2008, 11:28 AM

No worries Ernie.
On another note. There are large BJJ organizations that have full time instructors, certify students using TJMA belt ranking systems. Some of these schools are producing good fighters. So the notion that anyone runing a full time school is a charlatan is whack. The way I see it is the proof that you are teaching correctly is to produce fighters. Get students (who want to fight), out there competing against people outside of their school. If you can do it though the "coach" method or in a large school it doesn't matter. So if you're not producing fighters then what's the point?
The bottom line is that students can use their skills in the ring, in the street, doing club security or what ever. We have many NJ tough guys come into our school wanting to test WC. I could tell some some good stories. Some of them joined the school after they realized what they were into. Like Moses Powell once said. I've seen people do some fantastic things in the martial arts but all I want to know is if they can fight.
p.s. I like my silk pajamas . . .lol

sanjuro_ronin

02-28-2008, 11:32 AM

p.s. I like my silk pajamas . . .lol

And Gene LeBell wears a Pink Gi.
Nuff said abut attire..

Ernie

02-28-2008, 11:41 AM

And Gene LeBell wears a Pink Gi.
Nuff said abut attire..

Still looks gay even if he kicks my ass ,, i will be cracking jokes :D

Phil point taken [ if people are training with a goal is the key ] but large org bring corruption we see this time and time again ,, no need to name names ,,, for me better to avoid all that mess and just stay true to training ,,
reality is you don't need them anyway ;)

Phil Redmond

02-28-2008, 12:33 PM

I don't think he could pass for gay . . . .lol

HardWork8

02-28-2008, 04:41 PM

I think the term "teacher" is more than enough.
Outside the JMA where people tend to use the title "sensei" ( more than that is never used, I even recall hearing a 9th dan say that the term sensei is more then enough for any man) I use my name or sometimes they can call me coach.
I don't think that any term holds a higher prestige than "teacher".

Yes, at the end of the day, they are all teachers, but again, a master will have achieved a deeper understanding than a mere teacher and a Grand Master, even more so than a master and so on.

Of course,humility is,or is supposed to be, part of kung fu mastery and I for one have not come across any kung fu masters who ask to be referred to as masters and not sifus.

Phil Redmond

02-28-2008, 05:58 PM

Transmitter = 傳人

傳 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B6%C7
人 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A4H

Coach = 教練

教 = teach - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B1%D0
練 = practice, drill, exercise, train - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%BDm
Thanks Chee,
p.s. What makes transmitter any different from Louhsi, or Gaausi?

duckabolo

02-28-2008, 06:55 PM

Thanks Chee,
p.s. What makes transmitter any different from Louhsi, or Gaausi?

Transmitter = 傳人
at the same time means inheritor or successor.

Phil Redmond

02-28-2008, 07:49 PM

Transmitter = 傳人
at the same time means inheritor or successor.
I don't know your name but thank you as well.
It seeems as though Chyun Yahn (inheritor or successor), has the connotation
some special knowledge to transmit, like the Grandmaster of a system. ;)
jk, but you get my point.

reneritchie

02-28-2008, 07:57 PM

Those weren't the characters or the term, but I'll track them down eventually.

Typically, the inheritor of a system is the Jeung Mun Yan, or Gatekeeper while the founder of a system is the Jongsi (Founding Teacher).

These are both horribly abused, as well of course, though sometimes in a comical way. I remember back in the day on rec.martial.arts a guy kept marketing himself as the super secret inheritor of some deadly other system, but called himself Jongsi [X], which actually meant he was the founder, or the person who made it up, which is what pretty much what we all assumed from the zaniness of his statements.

anerlich

02-29-2008, 12:06 AM

But in the general learning of any of the martial arts we have instructors.

Actually, in Sydney, I have a Sifu for WC, but for BJJ I have a coach. The same will be true for the martial art of boxing.

Your generalisation regarding Australia is too ... generalised.

Personally, I think people should have instructors or coaches. Masters are for dogs, cats and submissives.

And as for the guy who said he'd never met a Sifu who wanted to be called "master" ... man, you need to get out more, I've heard plenty.

HardWork8

02-29-2008, 04:41 AM

And as for the guy who said he'd never met a Sifu who wanted to be called "master" ... man, you need to get out more,

.....Let me get this straight, you are saying that I really need to "get out more", but WHY? So that I can meet unqualified,mediocre and insecure "sifus" in need of a title?

That is, of course most sifus you are likely to come around today. Or haven't you heard? Like "sifus" who need to pump iron to feel powerful; sifus who "improve" their art to feel in gaps in their knowledge;"sifus" who don't understand the relevance of qi gong training in Wing Chun or kung fu in general; "sifus", who teach sparring where their students hop around like boxers/kickboxers/TKD-ists, because they themselves don't understand the significance of kung fu stances in real combat and etc.,etc.

NO, not thank you, I would suggest that maybe you are the one who needs "to get out more often" ;)

I am very choosy about who I call sifu, let alone master and the statement stands, I have not personally come across sifus nor masters (real ones in both cases) who insist on being addressed as "masters", and I am not just talking Wing Chun either.

anerlich

02-29-2008, 04:34 PM

Wow, raw nerve there ...

Liddel

02-29-2008, 08:56 PM

Six months ago a man called Nie Yin Xue murdered his wife here in NZ and fled the country leaving his daughter in an Austalian airport on the way to the states.

Our organisation reported at the time that he was a Kung Fu "expert" and in another follow up story that he was a "master" of Tai Chi.

All this was based on the community believeing what he had told them and that he taught people kung Fu.

I had a disagreement with our lead anchor (presenter) after seeing him in action in a short clip we got from another News channel, where i was saying we shouldnt call him a master nor an expert based on my opinion of what we saw...
Our presenter disregarded my opinion (no problem at all IMO) and continued to use these titles in further follow up stories.

A few nights ago the man was caught by some men who had seen him on Americas most wanted....the two guys used the old pulling the jacket over his head trick and hog tied him with his belt untill to 5.0 got there... LOL

It sparked another discussion between myself and our presenter about how these terms are used so loosely in martial arts amoung other areas...

I like the term coach.........but different strokes for different folks.

Personally WWW i would have thought you were a little sheltered also after reading your post, only because my own experience has taught me loads of people out there love these self indulging titles, its seems more prevelent to me in Kung Fu than other arts but......

DREW

anerlich

02-29-2008, 11:49 PM

That is, of course most sifus you are likely to come around today. Or haven't you heard? Like "sifus" who need to pump iron to feel powerful; sifus who "improve" their art to feel in gaps in their knowledge;"sifus" who don't understand the relevance of qi gong training in Wing Chun or kung fu in general; "sifus", who teach sparring where their students hop around like boxers/kickboxers/TKD-ists, because they themselves don't understand the significance of kung fu stances in real combat and etc.,etc.

You seem to be making my point about "masters" for me. I withdraw the remark about getting out more, as you have obviously come across the people you earlier said you'd never come across. Apologies.

That said, weight training is used by athletes in all sorts of disciplines and modern professional warriors, including a fair number of KF and WC expert practitioners. Not to feel powerful, but for maximum performance. It works in every other sport and athletic discipline and it will do the same in TCMA.

Some people practice multiple arts because they can; some become very competent in several arts. There is room for both specialists and generalists ... and eclecticians, if that's a word. Wc itself is not a pure style, at least not since the pole was introduced. Most if not all of the big names in history improved the art; the others were transmitters - fine, you need both types of people. The history and philosophy of science, and just about every other rational discipline, has constant evolution and improvements via experimentation and innovation. Anything else is dogma, pseudoscience, or fundamentalism.

My own instructor does some of this stuff ... I'm sure you weren't having a go at him just to try and get a rise out of me though. That would be immature.;)

anerlich

02-29-2008, 11:56 PM

I had a disagreement with our lead anchor (presenter) after seeing him in action in a short clip we got from another News channel, where i was saying we shouldnt call him a master nor an expert based on my opinion of what we saw...

From what I saw he was a fat b@stard who wore a orange silk uniform and did pretty average taiji sword.

I guess he was one of those self- if not media-, appointed "masters", huh? "Master" sells more tabloids.

I'm glad they caught him - he killed his wife, and abandoned his 3-year old daughter at a railway station in Melbourne. That's one evil, cold hearted, SOB.

Another vertical fist in the face of the notion that practicing TCMA necessarily makes you a better human being ...

Museumtech

03-01-2008, 03:38 AM

Your generalisation regarding Australia is too ... generalised.

Andrew, well spotted (note I did say one Australian point of view). More importantly do you train in Sydney Thursday nights. I will be up there with work on the 6th and 7th and I would like to catch up with Rick and yourself. Rick probably won't remember me but we trained together from the time that he was living upstairs in Fitzroy through until after he won his title in Kong Kong.

Peter Lillywhite

anerlich

03-01-2008, 01:26 PM

Peter,

Thursdays is a BJJ class at 5:30 pm and a Wing Chun class at 7 pm.

I usually do the 5:30 class but not the 7 pm. Though I usually hang around to about 7 most of the time. Rick us usually there though I could not guarantee that that will be true this week - he has branch schools and other responsibilities as well.

By all means drop in, say hi, and train.

WHOA, Update:

Thursday is a grading night, first or last Thursday every month. There will be no regular classes, and we will probably all finish up by 6:30 pm. You could still drop in, albeit no class, but Rick will definitely be there for the grading.

Ultimatewingchun

03-02-2008, 11:30 AM

I gotta go with Andrew on all of this. I think the words "Master" and "Grandmaster" are waaay overused and abused in CMA - including wing chun. There are plenty of people walking around with one of those words somehow attached to their name and resume who are bacially trying to kid themselves and others about who they really are and what they really can do with their fighting arts.

Similar to 7th dan this or 8th dan that in karate, for example. The was a time when you could count on one hand the amount of 7th or 8th dan blackbelts there were in the entire world in any given karate style.

After awhile, it becomes clear that THE GREAT MAJORITY of these titles are simply connected to inter-organizational politics and money-making schemes first and foremost; or worse yet, occasionally become a one-man show by someone who unilaterally proclaims himself some sort of Master or Grandmaster and starts his own organization.