View Full Version : Re-incarnation - anyone told you yours ?

09-23-2001, 04:28 AM
DISCLAIMER: If you do not believe in reincarnation, and you find the topic offensive, then please do not waste your effort to read this post.

I was just told what my past life was yesterday. I have never bothered to check, believing that one day, I will be able to see it for myself.

Have you ever been told yours ? And if you would like to share your story, who told you, how and why they said so or anything else you may wish to add, and of course, anything that suports whether you believe or are skeptical of it, and how it may affect you.

As for me, I have been told before that I must visit Tibet, that many things will come back to me. This from a complete stranger 2 years ago.

And a related story from a totally different person yesterday. I am very curious. *more cravings* not good. hehehe

Puzzled, a little amused.

09-23-2001, 05:34 AM
I've never had any past lifes experience, but i would like too.
I guess when you become Buddha you remember all your past lifes.


Fish of Fury
09-23-2001, 10:00 AM
i was told i was a soldier and killed lots of people.
...at least i was good at it i guess :confused:

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

09-23-2001, 01:38 PM
They must have been wrong Fish, you are in the human realm ! ;)

09-23-2001, 03:55 PM
I've been told I was a monk, a samurai and an Egyptian who helped build the pyramids - basically a very old soul. I am actually planning on getting a past-life regression from my reiki massage therapist. She first got into it when she participated in a group regression and later on actually confirmed her previous life (name, date) at the actual site (a boarding house from the 1800s that apparently still existed).

PS - Interesting trivia - They were not allowed to speak about reincarnation in the original "Kung Fu" TV series due to Christian censors. Despite the fact that it is a key tenet of Oriental spiritual philosphy. And nevermind the fact that certain ancient Christian sects also believed in reincarnation, until they were branded heretical and killed.

09-24-2001, 03:05 AM
Portugese sailor, Mongol warrior, feudal lord. Haven't been told about any others.

You're fu(king up my chi

09-24-2001, 03:20 AM
I was also told I was a young monk, but she emphasised that I was a "young" and "naughty" monk, as in I like to check-out and touch strange things.

She never said anything about growing up. I wonder if I died young ?

09-24-2001, 06:07 PM
Who did you go to for you to find out about such interesting past lives?

Do you think that they can tell me about mine through email :P j/k

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

09-24-2001, 06:29 PM
I would check your local new-ager community - reiki massage therapists are always a good entry point...

I wonder if perhaps our soul genealogies matter a whole lot more than our genetic genealogies... This could bring new meaning to the term "family tree" - what about our "soul family trees?"

prana - Sounds like u might have been a Catholic church boy... Say, what do u think about this guy who proclaims himself to be Buddha Maitreya?

old jong
09-24-2001, 07:52 PM
I prefer to leave my past lives where they are and live that one,doing the best as I can.
Have you seen how many Cesar and Cleopatra are found at these Hollywood reincarnation partys? ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

09-24-2001, 09:57 PM
I am waiting for my next life to ask them so I can see what funny things they have to say about the one i'm living right now :)

- Nexus

09-24-2001, 11:56 PM
:) I really don't know what my past is, but why can't we remember our animal re-incarnations, why is it just the human ones, and to sort of go along with what old jong said, most people who have found out what they were in a past life have normally been someone famous, or cool. Knowing our true past lives is something really amasing though maybe it is as xebsball says and when we reach nirvana we will finally remember it all.

Btw, sorry I'm not on here daily as before, got so much college work, and had to practise for a grading, now I'm practising all my new stuff, so computer is just home to loads of dust-mites at the moment.


Scott R. Brown
09-25-2001, 01:33 AM
I remember my first life. It was about 4 million years ago. I was a rock. It was a particularly boring life. I didn’t accomplish much; I didn’t have much motivation back then. All I did was sit around and watch the grass grow. I think that life is where the expression, “As dumb as a rock” comes from. I lived a long time though; I think it was somewhere around 3.8 million years. You tend to lose count after the first million years or so. One time this guy named Og picked me up and tied me to a stick and used me to bash the brains in of this bunch of guys with red hair. Og didn’t like guys with red hair. (No offense intended to those that have red hair. I didn’t have much choice in the matter.) I did develop a taste for blood. I think that life is where I got my interest for the martial arts. Before Og found me I spent sometime in a river. I was a State class swimmer in high school so I suppose that is where that came from, I am also fond of “rock and roll” music. It all kind of makes a weird sort of sense. I get the “wanderlust” from time to time and every one knows “a rolling stone gathers no moss”. I wrote that one myself when a sexy stone tried to get me to settle down one time. She was too flat though so I lost interest pretty quickly. She was always skipping out on me anyway. I’m still buried in southern France somewhere. I have been thinking of taking an expedition to find myself. It would be quite a reunion, although I am not sure I would have much to say.



09-25-2001, 01:58 AM

Nah, not catholic priest, little Tibetan mischief hehe. About the site, Padmasambhava is a very accomplished Tibetan Buddha in the past, prior to Lama Tsongkhapa. Padmasambhava wrote the "The book of the dead", you really should read it. It contains incredible detail on the death process, the resolution of the body, the different realms and how to avoid them, and the appearances of the cycle of life.

He is a GREAT teacher.

Scott R. Brown

That is one of the most interesting re-incarnation story I have ever heard.

The mind is like a candle flame, blown by the 5 winds of distraction, to the past and future.

old jong
09-25-2001, 02:24 AM
What's the big deal if,in our long story we have to wear out a few hundreds physical bodies?... ;)And I don't even mention rocks!... :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

09-25-2001, 03:25 AM
There wasn't really much glamorous about my past lives. The Portugese sailor was apparently a drunkard and had terrible health, and the MOngol warrior was just a warrior, not a general or anything.

I've met people who have not only 'relived' parts of their past lives, but have verified what they saw in historical texts. Interesting stuff.

You're fu(king up my chi

Fish of Fury
09-25-2001, 06:50 AM
"why can't we remember our animal re-incarnations?"

well, i used to be a werewolf...but i'm OK noooOOOOooooOOooow!

sorry, that one really sucked.

i have been told i've been a whole lot of really boring people, like potato farmers etc. and i don't think they where famous potato farmers either.

i think i used to be shirley maclain

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

09-25-2001, 06:56 PM
Relevant chapter from the Hua Hu Ching (Lao Tzu's oral transmissions):


All things in the universe move from the subtle to the manifest and back again.
Whether the form is that of a star or a person, the process is the same.
First, the subtle energy exists.
Next, it becomes manifest and takes on life.
After a time, the life passes away, but the subtle energy goes on, either returning to the subtle realm, where it remains, or once again attaching to manifest things.

The character of your existence is determined by the energies to which you connect yourself.
If you attach yourself to gross energies - loving this person, hating that clan, rejecting one experience or habitually indulging in another - then you will lead a series of heavy, attached lives.
This can go on for a very long and tedious time.

The way of the integral being is to join with higher things.
By holding to that which is refined and subtle, she traverses refined and subtle realms.
If she enters the world, she does so lightly, without attachment.
In this way she can go anywhere without ever leaving the center of the universe.

09-26-2001, 12:45 AM

Looks like you found the law of karma :)

09-28-2001, 05:27 PM
a samurai. Why is nobody some poor kid that was a rich man's boytoy yesman untill he was killed when he accidentally tripped going down some stairs. Nope, everyone is Joan of Arc of an Indian. A warrior of course. Everyone is a warrior in a past life. Except that the world population is larger than it's ever been.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in reincarnation, I just think most people are full of shet.

I remember glimpses of a past life. It was dusty, I was part of a race of people that wasn't significant, died out a long time ago and left no trace on Earth.

Do y'all beleive that you choose where you are born so your soul/original energy can learn or balance out it's past mistakes?

Are we growing as wheat from lifetime to lifetime spirtitually through pain that becomes our wisdom. Is this spiritual bootcamp?

Repulsive Monkey
09-29-2001, 12:17 AM
someone mentioned earlier in this thread that re-incarnation was a tenent of Oriental philosophy. Well it isn't considered to be the case of Taoist philosophy. Sure traditionally Taoists culitvated spiritual and energetic Longevity and immortality, but they didn't actually hold the idea of reincarnation up very high at all. Reincarnation, comes from the Buddhist and before that Indian religions primarily, and im sure a whole host other faiths too (im no expert in this field). Taoist however didn't dwell on the past that much or indeed the future, at the expense of missing present Tao itself.

I do find it amusing that everyone (well ok most people) have done something Karmically wrong in their past lives, to of been relegated downwards from their lofty positions in the past to their present normal conditions. If I have had a past incarnation it does not matter to me in the slightest, as I find my present condition within these times that we are all living in today problematic enough to get a grip on.

Still I don't want to sound too cynical here, just that I find great volumes of hope in the life story of Jetsun Milarepa, Tibets greatest Saint and meditation master, who after committing many murders in his earlier part of his life managed to purify himself in one lifetime to ascend from the Karmic wheel and never to reincarnate. I urge all and any to get a decent copy of his life story and absorb its sentiments.


09-29-2001, 12:47 AM
Jetsun Milarepa was truly the living proof of the benefits of inner fire.

Scott R. Brown
09-29-2001, 05:34 AM
Saint Paul was also a murderer before he was called by God.



Repulsive Monkey
09-29-2001, 09:45 PM
Yes too true. The first time I ever heard of Milarepa was in the perfected writings of "Illumious Mind" by the Late great and very Venerable Kalu Rinpoche. Something very deeply nourished me in reading the stories in it about the events in Milarepa's . I am not a Buddhist by nature, but the story of Jetsun Milarepa had an effect upon me to which it helped me to not specifically dwell on the difference of faiths, but on pure teachings of compassion, awareness, dedication and the nature of the mind.

This of course lead me on to read backwards from Milarepa to each Master beforehand: Marpa the Translator, Naropa, Tilopa and Nagarjuna. I find
the story of Milarepa inspiring, and encouraging regardless of faith or creed. I only wish more people have heard of him!

10-01-2001, 04:51 PM
Repulsive Monkey - did you read this line from the chapter I posted from Lao Tzu's Hua Hu Ching?

"If you attach yourself to gross energies - loving this person, hating that clan, rejecting one experience or habitually indulging in another - then you will lead a series of heavy, attached lives."

Sure sounds like an explicit reference to reincarnation from the "founder" of Taoism himself to me...

10-14-2001, 01:19 AM
I had an extremely strange (and familiar) dream once... different from anything I really ever had before.

Remind me to tell the story. :)



"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

10-14-2001, 01:32 AM
Ryu, please do tell :)


MonkeySlap Too
10-15-2001, 11:52 PM
I experoienced deja vu once, but it was just a glitch in the matrix.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

10-16-2001, 05:12 AM
Did you make the jump? :D

You're fu(king up my chi

10-25-2001, 01:54 AM
hi guys its nice to wonder over here and and see some good conversation for once,

Prana in many of my past lives i have seen they are quite spectacular and quite weird to see how they connect with my present life. In most of my lifes in fact allmost all that i can remember i am in some sort of military group, 2 of my lifes i wont detail i was killed in battle but we dont care about those especially since in one of them i was a peasant in the fields and had my head cut of by bandits/invading army ???

anyway back to the ones i am happier to remember,

i have been a soldier in sparta, but remember little of that lifetime except for a sense of honour, It was a long long time ago prolly one of the oldest i can remember, And ironically i have come back again and i am greek in this lifetime.

Anyhow from the ones i remember most i am oriental , I have been a samurai a martial monk a normal martial artist , and in what i believe to be one of my most recent lives i was initiated in india , but i cannot remember much of that either it is blocked for somereason like someone is saying DONT even try to think about it.

When i was a samurai i first started getting glimpses and remembering this when we i was doing aikido , i would do this specific technique where the whole body is rotating and i would look down and i could see grass on the floor and a hakama flowing around me , this was weird since i was wearing a tracksuit inside a small "house". Anyhow i remember training on top of a mountain with a sword wearing something like a hakama but not exactly it was more skirt like and also remember riding into battle, the weird thing is it was dark when we were riding into battle and it was raining, what i find weird about this is that it was me in front of about 20 maybe 50 horse riders going into battle with another so many people , but why at night , and then it intensifies and ther are hundreads of thousands of people on each side, by now i am really old im like 50 odd and am wearing a weird helmet very unlike what you actually see in the movies.

Anyhow, from my 2 lives i remember in china , on i was a monk and i can hardly remember any of this life , ive just had 2 different friends say to me you were in the temple with me and it was destroyed the other one is like , you were in the temple with me and there is a huge fire and everyone is running away.

Lastly my favorite life time is i believe more recent around the era of wong fei hung etc etc, i was a martial artis and a herbalist/ acupuncturist and what i remember vividly is me holding a needle about to insert it into my patient and i have these really dirty long yellowy black fingernails yuuuuuck.

anyhow this is some of the stuff, but at the end of the day it doesnt matter who you were where you are but mostly what matters is what you are doing to make sure you dont come back again.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

10-26-2001, 01:47 AM

I am just curious, you do remember all of these quite vividly. I wonder how you are able to do so ? For me, I have just been told it by a couple of people, otherwise, I really have not seen my past.

Though I get the feeling I was some sort of hellbeing in my immediate past. I felt much 'hellish' energies when younger, and hence I want to make best use of this one.

Nut'n'Hunny -

With regards to your question, well in Buddhist thinking, rebirth and death is determined mostly by what you thought of last. What you experience at the end of each life is the collection of the grosest energies of that life. Most laypeople (and even more so, just beings) don't think too much about how to die, so they fall helplessly without choice, their rebirth. Hence Buddhist collect selfless thoughts in their lifes, to collect good wholesome karma.

About why there are increasingly more people in this world, I asked this question before and after I became a Buddhist, I still have no answer.
But I do have a question, why are humans so prideful to think they and animals are the only two forms of sentioent beings ? And hence, I keep my mind open.

10-26-2001, 01:49 AM
Are you saying prana that you live this life and are a good person so in your rebirth you will gain benefits from that? Basically adding up the good karma so you get a payout?

- Nexus

10-26-2001, 02:21 AM

Its two-fold. You gain now, incredible bliss when helping someone else, but you also gain during the bardo (between dieing and rebirth). Of course, one can just as well accumulate bad and not understand how to die.

Though my usage of words may not be accurate, I hope you see past it.

10-26-2001, 03:18 AM
Prana, perhaps you should consider this if you have not already, although you are intelligent and I would imagine you probably have.

If not though, consider the following: If all you knew of karma and the return for doing good was farce, and was not actually how you saw it, and in death you actually received nothing for doing good at all, would you continue doing so, and if you would, what would your justification/reason for doing so be?

There is no reason to respond to that message here on the forum, but rather one that a person should consider themselves.

- Nexus

10-26-2001, 07:54 AM

absolutely :) I am sure you have felt the joys of giving. It is great in its own rights. Forget the future.

What is clear though, we perceive karma entirely differently.

10-26-2001, 02:42 PM
fish of fury , You know the joke you made about remembering your animal lives, i had when i was a kid really weird flashbacks of being an animal a cat or something similar, i was watching tv and suddenly everything i could see went a funny orange-brown khakhi colour and it was distorted, it was like a camera out of focus , and sharper images. Any how it happened 3 or 4 times and i was like wow i only realised later that it was from a previous life. Because when i recollected this i could see the animal with all grass/dirt/dry twigs/weeds around it but i cant remember the animal itself.

I am just curious, you do remember all of these quite vividly. I wonder how you are able to do so ? For me, I have just been told it by a couple of people, otherwise, I really have not seen my past.

The scenes that i actually remember i remember them very vividly , you see it in your minds eye , but i dont remember the whole of the life just maybe various parts of it significant or not significant, but those parts are vivid , from there on i can try and fast forward slowly slowly and see what else happened before or after that point in time and where my surroundings are.

But there is no need to do so , knowing what you were in your past life is nothign special.

To do so all you need to do is meditate on it , at first with me it just started as flashes during the day, but if you close your eyes and fcus on the 3rd eye , provided that your 3rd eye is open you ask to see what you were in your past life and from there on it is like a story.

But it is much better to ask to be one with the most high at that point rather than to see what you were in your past lifes, so after a while when you are curious you will be able to see it as a gift from the higher power. He sees that you wish to know and because you dont ask him for it constantly he will give it to you without asking.

Though I get the feeling I was some sort of hellbeing in my immediate past. I felt much 'hellish' energies when younger, and hence I want to make best use of this one.
Everybody who is in a path of meditation etc etc has been an evil person in one of his past lives. I dont know why it is just like that.

I remember very vividly 2 of my past lives that i was very evil, In one of them i used to practise black magic very powerful black magic i was very ugly and deformed i looked like a hunchback and my face was very in human , i remember that i was in the underground of a big place maybe a castle i dont know , and the walls were big and black made of something liek granite, i remember seeing my self standing in front of a large river of blood flowing in front of me it was from one side of the room to the other and it was coming in from the wall, i cant describe it otherwise.
Behind me is a large symbol on the floor, and i summon this beast from out of it , it is very weird icannot describe it , all very discusting.

The other life i remeber that is also evil is similar but different.

So anyway this is how it is, when i was young also , could hear something like the voice of the devil in my mind a very slow slooooooow voice very weird and scary, also before i used to try and sleep i would close my eyes and see hellish beings from nowhere all the time in my head after that the beings started to go away and it was just many many many different colours of negative enerrgy flowing in my head....

Luckily nothing of that sort nowadays....

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

CD Lee
10-30-2001, 12:19 AM
You said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> PS - Interesting trivia - And nevermind the fact that certain ancient Christian sects also believed in
reincarnation, until they were branded heretical and killed. [/quote]

This is interesting. I studied Christian Patristics for years. I would love some detail behind that trivia since I am unaware of it specifically. In Irenaus' 'Against Heresies' (150AD)he describes so many beliefs of off-shoot groups claiming to be Christian that just about every Platonic, Greek, and every possible belief is described. The main problem with all of the groups he describes is that they did not originate from Christ's Apostles. That is when the term Apostolic Succession became an issue. When the stories and teaching tradtions started to vary from the one passed down, that term gained significance.

Many other splinter groups also taught that the body was evil, and to sin more meant getting closer to God in spirit. Sounds like they were selling something. That is the surface.

The killing part is what I find interesting. If you do have that information I would be interested sincerely. Otherwise, I have heard a million unsubstantiated stories before. That is how I got into Patristic studies. Cheers

Scott R. Brown
10-30-2001, 12:43 AM

Technically speaking St. Paul did not originate from from Christ's Apostles and he is credited with basically making the church.


CD Lee
10-30-2001, 04:14 AM
I understand your point. However, St. Paul presented himself before Peter after 15 years. If you read the text, Paul admits to being nervous lest his work had been in vain. St. Paul was picked by Jesus Himself in person to be an Apostle on the road to Damascus if you recall in Acts. All this just to say, Peter and Paul were in total agreement. They had the same Gospel, the same story. St. Paul is not credited by the Catholic Church or the Protestant Evangelicals (where I come from, came from for 20 yrs) as having practically created the Church. The Church was persucuted by Paul long before Paul (Saul) came into the Church.

So, picked by Christ as an Apostle...is pretty certainly originating from Christ's Apostles. As far as anybody 'Creating' the early Church, the Church was created by Jesus himself. Paul was a great evangelist who worked within the Church.

What I am talking about is those groups that split from the teachings of churches that had bishops with an apostolic lineage. Paul and Peter are from that same lingeage. Not sure what the point is, as history show no differences in their followers teachings really? Do you think the two Apostles had not met, and concurred their Gospels?

Scott R. Brown
10-30-2001, 04:57 AM
CD Lee,

My point is that Paul was an Apostle by appointment and not an actual Apostle of Christ. Peter was in a bit of a position when he accepted Paul as a bona fide Apostle. By this time Paul had influence over the majority of the church. As you recall there was some disaggreement over whether gentiles would even be accepted into the church.

While you can indeed argue that Christ started the church, it is clear that Paul's words are the most influential of the New Testament. Therefore, it can also be argued that Paul is the one that created the foundational principals of the church. It is Paul's words not Christ's that are most frequently quoted in church services. It is Paul's interpretation of what he belived Christ teachings were that have influenced the church for 2,000 years.

I understand the view that it was the Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit motivating and guiding Paul, however that is a matter of faith and not necessarily truth.

It was Paul who stated he was appointed by Christ. If I said that same thing, would I be accepted as the authority for what Christ really meant to say?


CD Lee
10-30-2001, 07:28 AM
Ok, I do definately disagree that Paul was not appointed. Appointed by Christ is good enough for the Church. Accepted by the other original Apostles is also good enough for me. Don't see a problem here frankly.

It does not really matter however, as Paul's letters are part of the same Cannon that Peter's letter are, and niether the Catholic Church, nor any mainline Protestant denominations (that I know of) seperate their teachings. Do you think their letters are somehow contradictory???

In fact, in patristic texts of the first and second centuries, Peter and Paul are mentioned together by many of the eary fathers of the immediate post-apostolic period. I guess I just don't see the point. Never heard of tension of theological problems with Paul's and Peter's teachings??? In fact, Peter supports Pauls Letters in his own letters explicitly by name.

In fact, what is the issue here anyway? Are you trying to split apart the New Testament? Whassup?

CD Lee
10-30-2001, 07:38 AM
I re-read your post. Ok. Let me make this statement. Christ appointed Paul as His Apostle according to the New Testament. There were witnesses to this event, and full concurrence withing the 'original' Apostles. When Paul met Peter, as the Holy Sripture says, their Gospels were identical with no disagreement.

You make it sound like Paul heisted the Church. Have you studied the Ante-Nicean period of Patristic Texts? Your conclusions are foreign to historical texts on this matter frankly.

Are you a modern proponent of Dispensational Theology by any chance?

CD Lee
10-30-2001, 07:41 AM
I hope Scott and I are not killing this thread. Perhaps we could take this one to email. Mine is in my profile.

Please let me know if this is disturbing the forum, and I will take it offline with Scott cuz Scott and I have not even scratched the scratch on the surface. I spent 5 years of my life studying this small area of interest to me!!! Whew! Thanks!

Scott R. Brown
10-30-2001, 07:44 AM

No, I am not attempting to split the teachings. In fact, I respect them very much, as I do Paul and the early Church fathers; I just disagree with the mainstream Christian attempts to validate the truth of the teachings through circular reasoning and other invalid arguments.

I believe that Truth speaks for itself and that the Truths of the Bible are self-evident through independent, individual investigation, and practice in one's life. I believe that the Church embarrasses itself by using invalid arguments in an attempt to prove the truth of its teachings when it is unnecessary. The Truth stands on it’s own that is why it is the Truth.

To me the bottom line is not whether Christ is the actual son of God or metaphorically the son of God. I care about the truth of his teachings and the teachings of the other church fathers. I believe that the Church should focus on demonstrating the practical Truth the Bible teaches and how it can be demonstrated through living its teachings.

I respect Christians very much. I do not respect Christians that proselytize and do not understand the simple rules of rational argument i.e. “You believe by having faith and have faith by believing.” I am not applying these comments to you is particular. So far it appears that you are very well informed and educated concerning these matters.


Scott R. Brown
10-30-2001, 07:49 AM

I has been years since I have studied these matters. My memory tells me that Peter and Paul did have some doctrinal issues to iron out. One of which was the inclusion of gentiles into the Church body. You are clearly presently better read I on these issuesthan I and I will defer to your expertise if you correct my memory.


CD Lee
10-30-2001, 05:55 PM
Good post. I guess we agree for the most part on a LOT. :D

You are correct on the inclusion of Gentiles. This was a 'question' that arose in the very early Church. That is the main reason for the Council of Jeruselem recounted in Acts. After that authoritative council, this issue was resolved.

I think you have been exposed to a lot of Fundamentlist Evangelical brothers in the faith, am I right??? No offence to them, but I have the exact same problems with the logic you speak of.
I was raised with this circular logic, and was totally frustrated by it as a young adult.

The logic you refer to is not taught by any traditional authoritative theological bodies. It is usually ranted on by mis-informed followers.

The basic great divide of Christianity as a *Religion* vs. some eastern beleifs is that it is a religion of *Revelation*, not of discovery.

It frankly requires more than blind faith if want to do more than just hope you are right. An understanding of how the Bible became the Bible (Cannonization) and how it functions within the body of the Church is critical I think. Once you seperate the two, you get nothing but radical division in Christianity.

As far as Truth. Your man Paul, says in Romans the first chapter, that this truth is there to be seen by all, even without having an education knowlage of organized religion as you say. He does not say this in totality, but does say it.

I think a lot of this truth is self evident as you point out too. However, in any religion of revelation, the reason for the revelation is to impart truth that may otherwise, be unknown in specific terms. Therefore, the Church believes that there is a combination of the two certainly.

You would find it very intersting what the Catechism of the Catholic Church say reguarding other non-Chirstian religions. You would find more agreement there with your view than you may imagine.

I know this is a huge topic, but each element expands into volumes of information.

Let me say this reguarding your statement that Paul's interpretations did anything. The Church interprets Paul's letters, not the other way around. Some bodies focus more on Paul's letters than others, but that is not the way the traditional church has operated. Any division in the Church is attributed to people interpreting Paul and others letters (The Bible) in different ways. Would that the Apostle Paul were here to put an end to this and tell us what he meant.


10-30-2001, 06:15 PM
I can only remember one thing. I cant remember where I was, or how it happened...

I died.
I can tell you I remember the weather, the climate, temperature, sounds, humidity (actually a lack thereof), tastes, smells, physical sensations... the total sensory package. If anyone is interested Ill go into detail.

It was not unpleasant, but I felt I was prevented from doing something important. This could explain the tremendous anger and self- medication of my youth, and how when this experience came out and was dealt with, most of... if not all of my rage issues went away.

10-30-2001, 06:19 PM
also someone mentioned something about the population growing in spite of the fact so many claimed to be "warriors" and the like...

The human population may be growing, but how many species of animal become extinct each day?

how many of them come back as humans?

how many from god realms, hell realms, titan realms, ghost realms?

Scott R. Brown
10-30-2001, 09:08 PM

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. You were very astute in your conclusionn of my fundamentalist exposure. I like the reference to Christianity being a religion of revelation. I would call many Eastern religious traditions of realization. This would make their systems of apprehending Truth very similar.


CD Lee
10-30-2001, 09:22 PM
I am way outta my element when talking Eastern anything except eating good Chinese food! But...

I thought DAo and Taoism, and Buddism (sp?) were religions of self *discovery* and observation? That is what I like so far about what I have heard. People observing the universe around them, learning about themselves, etc.

In other words, no Budda had this reveliation from some porported Diety, and said" here is truth that has been given to me by revelation(of another source other than himself).

Like Judaism is the God of Abraham communicating directly with Abraham...Christianity is Jesus claiming deity and telling others about a New coveneant. The Mormons had some Golden Tablets that were given externally to them (hmmm). You get the general idea.

Is it true or not that Taoism, and DAoism came from men discovering and describing the universe as they saw it and lived it? I am not too sure about Buddism at all. If true, I am amazed at the moral thread that joins a lot of the other religions in the world. Any thoughts?


Scott R. Brown
10-31-2001, 12:22 AM
CD Lee,

Taoism and Daoism are the same thing. “Tao” is merely pronounced as “Dao” so you will see it spelled both ways, but it is the same word.

The purported history of Taoism is that the founders observed nature and its rhythms and discovered intelligent and repeating patterns. When observing nature they did not limit themselves to seasons, birds, trees, water, etc., but also observed man and his patterns of behavior and history. There appeared to these men a perceivable repeating pattern that conformed to specific rules. The goal of a Taoist is to perceive the patterns and conform oneself to the pattern. In Christianity it would be expressed as, “Not my will Lord, but thy will be done”. In Buddhism the goal is the same when one attempts to rid oneself of all desire. Desire is a manifestation of our humanistic ego attempting to force our individualistic will onto the universe. These are all the same principle at the core.

Taoists observed that the universe is composed of mutually interdependent yet exclusive principles symbolized by the Yin-Yang. Positive and negative influences ebb and flow in the continuous dance of life, each principle in turn having a season of dominance only to become subordinate again at a future season. Each principle possesses a small portion of its polar opposite; symbolizing that there is never total positive or total negative manifestations. The Yin-Yang also represents the essential oneness of these opposites. There are two principles manifested; yet they are at the same time merely differing aspects of the same universal principle. So the Yin-Yang represents the oneness of division and the division of oneness as they are manifested in creation and the constant ebb and flow of creation as it flows through time. Harmony/Happiness occurs as a consequence of conforming ourselves to this ebb and flow and not struggling against it. Knowing when to behave manifesting the Yin principle and when to behave manifesting the Yang principle is crucial.

Buddha, on the other hand, was a prince who was raised in opulence. He had occasion in his early adulthood to observe human suffering, an experience his father had protected him from. Troubled by the suffering he witnessed he questioned its underlying cause and sought to discover a method for eliminating suffering. He spent many years investigating various religious methods and found no solution to his dilemma. Finally giving up he sat down under a tree and vowed not to arise until he had solved the problem of the cause of suffering and its elimination. This is when he had his realization.

There are some on this BB that contend that Buddha did address the existence of a deity and of reincarnation. I contend that he did not address these issues, because their resolution is not pertinent to gaining enlightenment. I contend that these were latter additions made my men because of man’s emotional need for assurance that their identity continues after death.

Buddha’s intent was to solve the problem of emotional suffering, not address esoteric and occult matters. These other issues distract the individual and inhibit ones effort in overcoming the cause of suffering. In other words, so what if you live numerous lives and there is deity if you cannot effectively live this life because you are trapped by your own mind into patterns of behavior that cause suffering and pain. When an individual solves the problem of suffering these other issue become superfluous.


10-31-2001, 05:46 AM
I found an essay relevant to rebirth by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Whether he's right or not is a different question. You can find the essay ("Dhamma Without Rebirth?") at www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html)

10-31-2001, 05:51 AM
"Tolerance and Diversity"
description: An urgent question for the world today is how followers of one religious tradition can live in harmony with those who practice another, without compromising the integrity of their own tradition. The Buddha's teachings of tolerance strike a delicate and wise balance that avoid the perilous extremes of intolerant fundamentalism on the one hand, and an "all-roads-lead-up-the-same-mountain" universalism on the other.

www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay24.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay24.html)

About the Author:
"Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Buddhist monk of American nationality, born in New York City in 1944. After completing a doctorate in philosophy at the Claremont Graduate School, he came to Sri Lanka for the purpose of entering the Sangha. He received novice ordination in 1972 and higher ordination in 1973, both under the eminent scholar-monk, Ven. Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, with whom he studied Pali and Dhamma. He is the author of several works on Theravada Buddhism, including four translations of major Pali suttas along with their commentaries. Since 1984 he has been the Editor for the Buddhist Publication Society, and since 1988 its President.

CD Lee
10-31-2001, 06:24 AM
Excellent post Scott. I found that quite informative. I know there is a lot more to it, but you know these western minds are so rigid. :)

It is just good to know that experiencing Qi will not be channeling to demons as my past freinds would have told me. I always wondered for years why if this was the case, there were not more cases of mad demon possesed CMA intructors going around sacrificing people and stuff. And why do these guys teach all that 'be good to other people' stuff??? Then one day I turned on my brain swith and learned what an ignorant, arogant person I had been for so many years.

I will admit however, that I did feel a lot more confident when I knew all the answers in my younger years. :D :D :D

10-31-2001, 08:29 AM
Great post Scott. One thing to be careful of also in the practicing of Taoism is how you take measure to the words of others. Often we hear the quote, 'Those who speak do not know' and 'Those who know do not speak'. You will find something very similar to that in the Tao Te Ching.

This is saying that often when someone speaks about Taoism, people take them for their words and not the experiences, and so they lay weight on the words of the individual and begin to miss the entire point. The experiences must come with self-discovery, and when insight is gained, applied to ones self and then adjusted as it is necessary.

"When an individual solves the problem of suffering these other issue become superfluous."

Well said Scott!

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-31-2001, 09:37 AM

Good point. Each individual should take the words of others as "the finger pointing the way" for them to search for, and know the truth for themselves.