Wing Chun Knife?

[KPM]

I like to keep things practical. The traditional Wing Chun weapons are excellent for developing certain attributes and have some cross-over value that can be applied to “environmental” weapons. But they are out-of-date as modern weapons. In my opinion, the most practical “modern” weapon available to us is the tactical folding knife. They are legal to carry in most states in the US and can be kept readily at hand clipped in a pocket. They also are a tool that can be used for any kind of cutting task. And despite what many think, they do not have to be used in a “deadly” fashion.

I have seen and trained in several different systems for using the knife. In my experience, the one that is the best fit with Wing Chun skills is known as the “Drawpoint” method. This system was developed by James A. Keating as his “tactical” adaptation of methods from Pekitia Tirsia Kali. Mr. Keating is an American Icon in the knife industry. He first brought his Drawpoint system to the attention of the public through a video in 1993. Since then other individuals such as Michael Janich and Pete Kautz have developed the system further and in their own ways. Michael Janich as produced an excellent instructional video series of his own for Paladin Press that highlights this method.

The Drawpoint system uses the knife in a reverse grip. This does sacrifice some reach, but then Wing Chun guys are used to being “up close and personal.” But holding the knife in a reverse grip allows one to hook and redirect just like doing a Huen Sao action. Drawpoint emphasizes deploying the knife quickly in a self defense situation. It is not a “dueling” method. The core drill is called “rotary picking” or “trap and roll” and bears a strong resemblance to the Wing Chun Pak Da drill. Another key drill in the system is called “cover and slash.” This drill is essentially Chi Sao with knives and is a lot of fun to practice!

Another advantage of this particular method is that it is easily adapted to any object that is between 5 and 8 inches long that can be held in the hand protruding from the bottom of the fist. This could be a pen or pencil, a small flashlight, a beer bottle, a "Kubotan" or a "pocket stick."

There are several ways to apply Wing Chun motions and concepts to the Drawpoint system. I'm currently working on getting a webpage up and plan to have more of my thoughts and examples there.

Has anyone else played with applying WCK to the use of a tactical folder?

[r4cy]

I don't know about Drawpoint, but for the rest I completely agree. Wing Chun is famous for being practical, and tho Wing Chun traditional weapons help your training in certain ways, there is no way to convince me I train the WC knives or the pole to fight w/ them. Definetly the eskrima or kali systems are a great way to complement WC, and we should not be scared of making the crossover when everybody knows that WC acquired the weapons from another systems in the beginning. After all knowledge is universal. We can take a modern knife and apply it to the concepts w/no problem. I think the fathers would have done the same and the only reason we don't have pocket knives hanging on our walls is because it didn't make sense fighting a broadsword with a pocket knife on those times hehehe, just as it doesn't make sense walking around with WC knives on my back today.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I like to keep things practical. The traditional Wing Chun weapons are excellent for developing certain attributes and have some cross-over value that can be applied to “environmental” weapons. But they are out-of-date as modern weapons." (KPM)


***ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO I started working with two polycarbonate tonfas (exactly what the police here in NYC were using at the time)...and adapted the Butterflly Sword technques to the tonfa - if you can imagine that. For example,with one tonfa in each hand, the "tips" of the tonfa could be used for a stabbing/thrusting motion or the shafts of the tonfa can be used for a "clubbing/chopping" motion.

And the vertical handles...as long as you hide your thumbs (it took awhile to work this out) could actually be a place (where the vertical handles met the shaft) - be a place where you can catch a baseball bat that's being swung at you. (The polycarbonate is exceptionally strong)....followed by hits to the arms/hands....body/head/legs.

The possibilities are virtually endless - against knives, sticks, long poles being thrust at you, etc.

The biggest adaption is the fact that there is no guard for your fingers - but it can be worked out.

[Phil Redmond]

You don't have to carry BJD around with you to use the principles of the Do. WC knives can be transposed to single or double stick, etc., or even single knife whether folded or fixed blade. There are also plenty of one knife drills in WC.

[Black Jack II]

Having attended a Riddle of Steel, I can say Mr. Keating is bloody good, one of those rare, old world characters that you tend to only find in faded Joe R. Lansdale novels.

He was way ahead of the game with his drawpoint series, which is just his take on the Pekiti-Tirsia methods of Pikal knife work. Though I tend to frown at some of his black helicopter esque conspiracy theory views, his martial work is beyond first rate and was also a forerunner on the Occidental fighting arts.

For my taste though I believe the best format of good knife work out there in the market now is done by the Shivwork group. In specific there work in the extreme close combat range with the Pikal, point down-edge in method of short knife fighting.

The combination of forward drive, economy of motion, and gross motor based movements are excellent.

www.shivworks.com

Wing Chun could benefit well from the Pikal method, which again is a point down-edge in method of knife fighting often in the reverse grip position. With some psychological "tweaking" to understand that the method is made to puncture and rip instead of trap and hit, it may be the best method around for Wing Chun.

My core knife self defense work is specifically Pikal based, its simple and contextual to what I need to do.

[Tom Kagan]

IBut they are out-of-date as modern weapons.

They were out of date even for the era when they were developed originally.

[anerlich]

My instructor teaches the Hock Hochheim system.

I've recently been investigating Ray Floro's system www.florofighting.com - very interesting. The free vids there are food for thought. You can cause a nasty wound with a credit card.

With regard to practicality in modern times, the walking cane and mini-maglite kubotan are two of very few weapons you can carry through airport security.

It's also important to realise that many WC techniques which work against bare hands will earn you a trip to hospital or worse if you try them as is against someone with a blade and moderate skill.

[KPM]

It's also important to realise that many WC techniques which work against bare hands will earn you a trip to hospital or worse if you try them as is against someone with a blade and moderate skill.

That's an excellent point Andrew! I've heard it said more than once that the best way to learn how to defend against a knife is to learn how to use a knife! If you become relatively proficient with its use, you quickly come to the realization that most "self-defense against a knife attack" moves taught are NOT going to work.

[KPM]

For my taste though I believe the best format of good knife work out there in the market now is done by the Shivwork group. In specific there work in the extreme close combat range with the Pikal, point down-edge in method of short knife fighting.

---Thanks for the link! I don't know anything about the "Shivworks" approach. But those videos on the website are essentially the same as Keating's Drawpoint method. And I would hope that anyone with a good WCK background would look at the "application" video and see some WCK biomechanics there. I prefer the edge out grip. One of the applications you can do with this grip essentially comes from the 2nd section of the SNT form. The double Lan Sao to double Fak Sao back to double Lan Sao motion can be adapted to the knife as a Pak inward and slash inward as the arms come together to deflect and slash the attacker's incoming limb followed by a hooking back to control motion with the knife as the arms separate and the other hand clears....to a Pak inward to trap the arm as the knife slashes across the biceps, pecs, throat, face, etc. Its a simple arms together, arms apart, arms together motion that happens very rapidly and smoothly. But it requires an edge out grip.


Wing Chun could benefit well from the Pikal method, which again is a point down-edge in method of knife fighting often in the reverse grip position. With some psychological "tweaking" to understand that the method is made to puncture and rip instead of trap and hit, it may be the best method around for Wing Chun.

---I agree with the "puncture and rip" mentality, but don't think that it is mutually exclusive to a "trap and hit" mentality. In the Drawpoint method one proceeds that knife jab shown in the shivworks video with a Pak Sao motion that would clear the attacker's arm or "trap" before landing your own "puncture" or "hit." Wing Chun likes to have both hands on the attacker for control when "up close and personal." There's no reason why this can't be done with a knife held in one of the hands.

My core knife self defense work is specifically Pikal based, its simple and contextual to what I need to do.

---I agree! Its good stuff with lots of simple application and lots of good WCK "cross over." Thanks for the post.

[rogue]

You can cause a nasty wound with a credit card.

That's old hat. Works with brand new credit cards but older ones will lose their edge, but a nail file should bring it back. But now you have a weapon with your name on it and the other guys blood.

So far I've yet to meet someone who has had a dueling kind of knife fight so I'm not sure what the point of the training of some of these systems is.

[Black Jack II]

So far I've yet to meet someone who has had a dueling kind of knife fight so I'm not sure what the point of the training of some of these systems is.

Almost nill, that is why I don't work with mano vrs mano knife vrs knife systems, I find the combative viewpoint methods are much more in line with reality and self preservation.

[LoneTiger108]

Has anyone else played with applying WCK to the use of a tactical folder?

I don't particularly want to rant about the effectiveness of a form like the BJD here, as I have little knowedge of it, but I can say 'yes' I have dabbled in knife defense/attack strategies.

Actually the reverse grip you mentioned is known to me as a kind of 'sleeve knife' tactic. Something I've been chastised for by other families who do not turn or 'flip' the blade against the forearm.

I'll have a look at some Drawpoint methods if you recommend a site, and see if anything is similar...

[Black Jack II]

I'll have a look at some Drawpoint methods if you recommend a site, and see if anything is similar..

www.shivworks.com

http://www.jamesakeating.com/instructional2.html

www.reknives.com

Pikal is a FMA method, in Visayan terms it means to "rip". The drawpoint or shivwork methods are stripped down Pikal for a westerner looking for life saving skills.

Let's be clear about one thing, Pikal is not a duelistic method, its a assaultive method, and the training psychology behind that differs greatly.

It's a weapon-side forward approach that is based on the hydro-thrust, by that I want you to think of the blade like a sewing machine, by the way the blade is held it uses a hook and clear instinctive reaction to shear an interrupted thrust line.

As for WCK knife methods, don't even bother. Go with a method that has its backing in the small cqc blade arts, no reason to try and reinvent the wheel, when other culture's have already spilled the blood.

[KPM]

Let's be clear about one thing, Pikal is not a duelistic method, its a assaultive method, and the training psychology behind that differs greatly.

It's a weapon-side forward approach that is based on the hydro-thrust, by that I want you to think of blade like a sewing machine, by the way the blade is held it uses a hook and clear instinctive reaction to shear an interrupted thrust line.

As for WCK knife methods, don't even bother. Go with a method that has its backing in the small cqc blade arts, no reason to try and reinvent the wheel, when other culture's have already spilled the blood.

Hey Blackjack!

I agree with each of your points above. As far as the last point....while I do agree that there is no need to "reinvent the wheel" when there are perfectly good systems already in existence, I do think certain methods can be "adapted" somewhat to fit with what someone is already doing. I think people that knew what they were seeing would notice the WCK influence in the way I perform the Drawpoint method. Same thing with using sticks. I find the Serrada system provides the best "fit" for me with WCK and has the most overlay with some of the BJD methods. But if you saw me doing it, Serrrada guys would say..."that's not really Serrada" and WCK guys would say "that's not really BJD methods." :D

So bottom line for me....No...don't start from scratch and try to "reinvent the wheel". Look around for something that seems pretty close to WCK methods and then adapt it to suit you.

[Liddel]

So bottom line for me....No...don't start from scratch and try to "reinvent the wheel". Look around for something that seems pretty close to WCK methods and then adapt it to suit you.

Interesting some P'sOV here. I like the above, adaptation is you using the art not the other way around.

I dont see BJD relating to knife work myself, i can see some cross over but its small compared to what will get you hurt using a knife.

The BJD to me are swords not knives and have distance(range) timing and angling differences IMO. The BJD can deal with many weapons due to the design of the handle, trapping weapons and protecting your grip with the guard is which is not present with any knife ive seen.... so some obvious points to adress if you do want to cross over techs....

Obviously i think you can crossover some stuff, but why not stick with a proven knife method ?

JMO

DREW

[anerlich]

That's old hat.

Perhaps. A lot of KF is too. So are old blues records, but I still like my Robert Johnson.

If you look at Ray's videos you'll see that you can cause a wound requiring multiple stitches.

I wasn't suggesting that you should treat your credit cards as thermonuclear weapons, or indeed as anything practical, rather that even a fairly innocuous "blade" can do major damage.

People in jail make potentially lethal weapons out of all sorts of things.


So far I've yet to meet someone who has had a dueling kind of knife fight so I'm not sure what the point of the training of some of these systems is.

My instructor has had five knife fights and been cut seven times with scars to show.

Then again, most MAers will never experience a streetfight.

I guess we should all just buy firearms and not bother with these fighting arts at all.

[Museumtech]

"I wasn't suggesting that you should treat your credit cards as thermonuclear weapons, or indeed as anything practical, rather that even a fairly innocuous "blade" can do major damage."

And here I was thinking that you were referring to the serious damage my wife does with her credit card.

Peter

[rogue]

Perhaps. A lot of KF is too. So are old blues records, but I still like my Robert Johnson.

If you look at Ray's videos you'll see that you can cause a wound requiring multiple stitches.


I wasn't suggesting that you should treat your credit cards as thermonuclear weapons, or indeed as anything practical, rather that even a fairly innocuous "blade" can do major damage.

People in jail make potentially lethal weapons out of all sorts of things.

So can people who aren't in jail and it's a excellent skill to have. Something to keep in mind with improvised weapons is plausible deniability in regards to the law.


My instructor has had five knife fights and been cut seven times with scars to show.

Then again, most MAers will never experience a streetfight.



I've been in a few that in the big scheme of things were a joke, but I got two scars for my trouble. Now some of the guys I train with have been in some serious guano and I think they averaged around 3 to 8 seconds per encounter. Now they have some scars, and sometimes they walked away with the weapon that inflicted them. It sounded like the original owners didn't seem to mind.


I guess we should all just buy firearms and not bother with these fighting arts at all.

You might be right. Weird thing is I can carry a big handgun with less legal trouble than I can a big knife. Crazy world. :cool:

[Liddel]

I wasn't suggesting that you should treat your credit cards as thermonuclear weapons, or indeed as anything practical, rather that even a fairly innocuous "blade" can do major damage.

Last time i was in the states i came across a little underground store run by some shady character that sold all sorts of different weapons....

In a pile of knives i saw a credit card with a switchblade that flicked out of one edge.....if it wasnt for customs my darkside would have made me purchase it ;)

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the martial artist of all martial artists, Steven Segal use a credit card blade in one of his many oscar winning movies...... :rolleyes: LOL

DREW

[Sihing73]

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the martial artist of all martial artists, Steven Segal use a credit card blade in one of his many oscar winning movies...... :rolleyes: LOLDREW

Hello,

That would be in Glimmer Man where he used that particular item. ;)

[KPM]

Hey Drew!

I dont see BJD relating to knife work myself,

---I don't either. The Drawpoint method I've been talking about has nothing to do with the BJD. The cross-over I see for the BJD methods is in application with a stick. As I noted, the existing system that seems close to me is Serrada.

The BJD to me are swords not knives and have distance(range) timing and angling differences IMO.

----I agree. The blade I would use as "cross-over" with BJD methods would be a large Bowie Knife. :)

The BJD can deal with many weapons due to the design of the handle, trapping weapons and protecting your grip with the guard is which is not present with any knife ive seen.... so some obvious points to adress if you do want to cross over techs....

---I have made the same observations. The guard makes a big difference in applications. That's why I don't see the BJD methods crossing over directly to stick methods.

Obviously i think you can crossover some stuff, but why not stick with a proven knife method ?

---That's what Blackjack and I have both advocated. But I would say find one that adapts readily to what you already know and don't be afraid to change things around to suit you.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . The BJD to me are swords not knives and have distance(range) timing and angling differences IMO. . . .
Actually the BJD are "knives" and are considered to be no different from a kitchen chopper. In fact, Gim (sword), practitioners consider "Do" knives, to be vulgar weapons that lack the status of a true Gim (sword). Hence the name BJD instead of Baat Jahm Gim. ;)

[Liddel]

Actually the BJD are "knives" and are considered to be no different from a kitchen chopper. In fact, Gim (sword), practitioners consider "Do" knives, to be vulgar weapons that lack the status of a true Gim (sword). Hence the name BJD instead of Baat Jahm Gim. ;)

Interesting info Phil.

I guess my POV comes from the way we relate to incoming attacks from other weapons.

Sticking and clashing isn't something i usually associate with knives... i guess its my own misconception, cause i dont have much knowledge of other knife methods :)



That would be in Glimmer Man where he used that particular item

Ahhh Dave, i knew i wasn't the only one who pi$$ed his money away renting Segal Flicks LOL. Glimmer man's a far cry from the "Nico above the Law" Days :p

DREW

[Sihing73]

Ahhh Dave, i knew i wasn't the only one who pi$$ed his money away renting Segal Flicks LOL. Glimmer man's a far cry from the "Nico above the Law" Days :p DREW

Shhh don't tell anyone :p that I watch Segal movies. Although in my own defense it is usually on late night T.V. My soon to be ex spent all of my money so I had little to indulge.

FWIW I love the Steven Segal parodies on Mad TV. Especially the one with David Carridine. :D

[UrBaN]

BJD are mainly used for attribute training. There is a slight resemblance with Filipino machete work. It's very difficult to adapt for knife training.
Drawpoint, I agree, fits perfectly wing chun training. Practical, conceptual, easy.


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[KPM]

BJD are mainly used for attribute training. There is a slight resemblance with Filipino machete work. It's very difficult to adapt for knife training.
Drawpoint, I agree, fits perfectly wing chun training. Practical, conceptual, easy.


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http://nikosmartialarts.blogspot.com/

Drawpoint fits even better with the Wing Chun Mantis method. ;)

[k gledhill]

The knives have the tactical working idea of the whole system...the techniques are different but the tactical idea is the same. Lin sil di da.

we have different techniques but the same tactical idea . We only fight 1/2 the man .

Isolate and dominate

[bennyvt]

Firstly let me say I am not up to the weapons so I make no claim to knowing it all. So please dont start the, he doesnt know the form so he cant have a say (sorry still a little sore about that point and my posts get deleted.)
But from talking to my teacher he said that there are not really any moves that aren't in the other forms, except the footwork. This is to teach you that normally you will have to pass step (move one foot infront of the other rather then shuffle with empty hands) to make up for the wieght of the knives and to add power into the strike. It also introduces a more extreme turn of the body which totally gets away from the centre to ensure you get away from the strike. This form also brings in the concept of changing the point that you block. Normally we try to block at the elbow as this has more control, if you block at the elbow against another weapon ( or an opponent much larger with longer arms) you will get hit and at worse you may actually give the strike more power as your block becomes the falcrum for the motion. This is used empty hand against a weapon. Now the point of contact is the wrist as this will control the weapon.
Were as the pole teaches us that if we have a long weapon that twisting the hands actually makes the weapon go in large archs. Instead of trying to move them with arm movement which is slow and as longer to get thepole but on the centre to defend. This also uses the side stance much like the wrist blocks at the start of biu jee.
So yes if you think of them as just the knives or pole then they are out dated but I was always told that it is to teach you how to use a short weapon and a long weapon which can be anything. Interestingly when I was learning arnis it was much the same. There are only certain things a weapon can do, stab, hook, slash, pin etc and you had to learn how to do all of them so it didnt matter what you picked up you just used the attributes that the weapon has.
Funny story I made myself some wooden tonfa's using my lathe. My friend said that I didnt know how to use them. I said I could just use them like the empty hand moves. He didnt beleive me so I told him to try and hit me with my criket bat (like a baseball bat but has a flat side). I did the tan sao and punch using the tonfa. Problem was that when I did it I forgot the tonfa ends about 5-10 cms after my hand. So when I thought I was pulling up I accidently smashed him in the face, he wasnt happy.

[KPM]

The Wing Chun Butterfly knives are not a short weapon. They are a medium weapon. There is a big difference in using a short tactical folder versus using a what is essentially a short sword. A tactical folder is much more practical in modern society than any just about any other weapon you could choose to train with. While the Butterfly knives can translate directly to the Wing Chun empty hand techniques, that transition is not as easy with a tactical folder. When dealing with a tactical folder in the hands of someone that even half-way knows what they are doing, you have to control the weapon hand. You can't do the Lin sil di da thing and just deflect and strike in. The "Mantis" idea of "crawling up the arm" that I mentioned in the other thread applies very well to controlling the weapon hand of an attacker with a tactical folder as well as using your own tactical folder offensively. A large knife/short sword like the Wing Chun Butterfly knive can pretty much be counted upon to stop someone with a single solid blow. This is not true with a tactical folder. You can stab someone in the torso and they can ignore it and just keep right on coming. With the tactical folder you have to take out and completely control their weapon arm. So it becomes a progressive bridging in from a longer distance.

[k gledhill]

The knives are used to cut and back off to space again for mobility and relative safety.
We dont fight to stick to the guy ...cuts are delivered to the arms /body and we back off.
We dont trade knife blows like pirate fighting on a ship :D thats the idea behind wait to receive and attack 'en passant' aka while moving to a % friendly flank . What side to counter attack ? are you trained to move instinctively to the attempted stab using tactical
responses with simultaneous cuts /slashes ?

Or attack obvious weakness of technique. drawing the blade back over the head to deliver a big cut etc... being close enough to counter in 1 step...but evasive enough to avoid any wild swings.

[bennyvt]

In australia any knife carried is against the law so a tactical folding knife is just as not usefull as the actual VT knives. Techincally any knife put into the pocket is classed as a concealed weapon. So I doesnt really matter how big your knife is as long as it is on your belt or easily seen and you have a reasonable excuse for carring it.I know the knive aren't what you would normally call short but I mean that the form teaches you to use the blade of the knife like you use your forearm in training. Hence the blade being the same length as your arm from elbow to fist. So instead of the movements being controled by the elbow it is now controlled by the wrists, (the wrist are now the pivot point for the knives just like the eblow moves the empty hand.

[anerlich]

In australia any knife carried is against the law so a tactical folding knife is just as not usefull as the actual VT knives. Techincally any knife put into the pocket is classed as a concealed weapon. So I doesnt really matter how big your knife is as long as it is on your belt or easily seen and you have a reasonable excuse for carring it.

I live in AUS as well.

I don't think it necessarily follows that the BJD are this more useful than a combat folder. If you're carrying BJD you'd better be going to or from training or a demo ro competition as they have no other possible legitimate use. Arguably, if you have sharpened knives they have little possible training use either (they are as dangerous as hell to the user as well as any possible recipient of the techniques).

You could argue that a combat folder is a utility knife, and carry it legitimately in a toolbox or whatever if your job requires it.

I once attended a very interesting talk by a criminal defense lawyer who is also a black belt in Goju karate.

He talked about one case he defended where a guy tried to defend himself with a knife at work against a co worker who was attacking him with a 2x4. The guy with the 2x4 was not cut at all, but the knife guy was charged. It sounded pretty bad for the knife guy until louder and louder defense demands required the knife to be produced - it was a flimsy penknife the guy brought to work to peel his fruit at lunchtime. After that the case fell apart and the guy was acquitted.

Another was about an Asian guy who was eating in a restaurant and was being seriously threatened and harassed by a drinken rugby player. The Asian guy took a knife fashioned from a metal file, from his toolbox, stabbed the other guy and killed him. It transpired the Asian guy's boss had instructed him to fashion the knife and he had a legimiate reason to carry it. The Asian guy was very remoseful and brok down in court - he felt terrible that he had killed someone, in self defense or no. He was acquitted, which doesn't mean he didn't suffer for it.

The point? Carrying a knife even for legitimate purposes is still a highly risky proposition. And even if you do defend yourself successfully, you will probably end up in court and serious repercussions may ensue even if you are acquitted.

[UrBaN]

"The point? Carrying a knife even for legitimate purposes is still a highly risky proposition. "

That's right. So we must learn to use improvised weapons. The Drawpoint method as KPM said as well, is not just a knife method, is a method where you can use anything at all, using the same skills & attributes. It works best using the "point" which has stopping power. A slash (though taught in Drawpoint as well) can inflict damage but can't necessarily stop the assailant with his adrenaline hitting the ceiling.
BJD footwork and methods are excellent. But as I said earlier can't be used exactly as FMA sticks and that's because of the aerodynamics of each weapon.

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[Mr Punch]

Some good info on this thread...

Any of my UK bros know whether any of this knifework can be found over there? I'd like to practise some when I move back (there is a little to be found here in Japan but it's ludicrously expensive!).

[KPM]

The knives are used to cut and back off to space again for mobility and relative safety.
We dont fight to stick to the guy ...cuts are delivered to the arms /body and we back off.
.

---That may be a good strategy with the Butterfly knives, but its a poor strategy with a tactical folder. You want to disable or control his weapon arm as soon as possible, and maintain control or disarm him. So you DO stick to that weapon arm. Moving in and out is just an invitation to take a hit with his knife. A strong blow with a Butterfly knife is much more likely to disable his arm than a blow with a tactical folder, so with a folder you better have control or he can just keep right on coming!

[KPM]

"The point? Carrying a knife even for legitimate purposes is still a highly risky proposition. "

That's right. So we must learn to use improvised weapons. The Drawpoint method as KPM said as well, is not just a knife method, is a method where you can use anything at all, using the same skills & attributes. It works best using the "point" which has stopping power. A slash (though taught in Drawpoint as well) can inflict damage but can't necessarily stop the assailant with his adrenaline hitting the ceiling.
BJD footwork and methods are excellent. But as I said earlier can't be used exactly as FMA sticks and that's because of the aerodynamics of each weapon.

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This is a good point to reiterate. The Drawpoint method can be used with a screwdriver, a stout ink pen, a beer bottle, etc. Another factor to consider...someone that doesn't know how to use a knife only sees one way to put it into action...and that way is usually the most deadly. Someone that knows how to use a knife can do it without necessarily employing deadly force.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The use of a folding knife, point down and cutting edge away from you is dangerous in that a folder can close on your hand and inflict serious injury. I witnessed a bloody fight once where the only person to be cut was the guy with the knife. He was doing this drawpoint thing. It was not called that. In fact, I don't even think he had a name for it. If you are going to use a knife it is best to use a short fix blade I would think. It will not be as noticable and it will not close on you. Stabbing is not any good, and is extremely dangerous to the stabee. You would only want to cut the offending arm so that it can not deliver a deadly knife cut to your person.
The use of a knife is only justifyable if you are threatened with equally deadly force and you have a witness to the fact of your being attacked. You certainly would not want to kill someone unless it deemed necessary. However, it is always more favorable to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

[Mr Punch]

...a stout ink pen...LOL, isn't that as anachronistic as BJD...?! How about a quill? :D

[KPM]

The use of a folding knife, point down and cutting edge away from you is dangerous in that a folder can close on your hand and inflict serious injury. .

---Lee you need to step into the world of modern knife manufacturing. :) A quality knife from companies like Cold Steel, Benchmade, Spyderco, etc has a good lock mechanism and is not going to close on you. Someone that is serious about using a knife as a defensive weapon shouldn't be carrying around a piece of s...t with a cheap lock mechanism.

[KPM]

LOL, isn't that as anachronistic as BJD...?! How about a quill? :D

That's true! :) Maybe I should have said cell phone? :D

[Paul T England]

To me the priciples of wing chun work well with a modern knife. The Baat Cham Dao as I have been taught is similar to other knife fighting styles.

I have not found any contradictions with wing chun knife v filipino style.

One of my martial friends suggests wing chun is based around the baat Cham Dao rather than the empty hands! Appart from the techniques and priciples he suggests that if it was a revolutionary style, why would you train more empty hands than weapons?

Paul

[k gledhill]

---That may be a good strategy with the Butterfly knives, but its a poor strategy with a tactical folder. You want to disable or control his weapon arm as soon as possible, and maintain control or disarm him. So you DO stick to that weapon arm. Moving in and out is just an invitation to take a hit with his knife. A strong blow with a Butterfly knife is much more likely to disable his arm than a blow with a tactical folder, so with a folder you better have control or he can just keep right on coming!




Tactics Tactics Tactics, no mind response , instinctive % based on survival not points.


Its a strategy of the whole VT system , for a reason. Your fighting and talking hypothetically . The whole rational behind a tactical guideline is that there is no specific plan , no set moves that need to be fed a certain attack. You take what comes , respond accordingly as your training , without thought , stay with the retreat to vanquish the opponent into oblivion....er ah yeah :D lin sil di da as your 'way'.

The tactics and techniques we can adopt include grabbing controlling hands [bil gee] for the same reasons you mention, we are being stabbed/glassed and want to control the hand not allow it to swing wildly . But from what side ? without thinking , instinctive , in time with the attackers movement, in perfect balance ...avoiding the attackers other arm to function by isolating it from being able to face us equally, from what training ? Again in bil gee there are several ways to recover our grabbed arms etc if we are the ones doing the stabbing /cutting...for the same reasons , to recover our arms and ability to cut THEM and move to a flank , simultaneously. Lin sil di da .

If they know the same ideas , do you know the tactical response to yourself ? one reason bil gee wasn't meant to leave the school. You wouldnt have an edge [sorry!] over the other guy.

There are 100's of ways to do a knife response ...I'm doing one system that has a tactical guideline for survival armed or unarmed, not wait to apply a 'move ' on a guy who's going to kill me , from a seminar...if I miss , slip, his arms all sweaty , not like the gym I did the seminar in ;) he grabs me with the other hand because I went into his center , now he has a knife in one hand and grabbing me in the other....stabbing high and low no strikes like the seminar ...he did it nice and straight and let it work so we could all do it ...:D no time to think.

[sanjuro_ronin]

---Lee you need to step into the world of modern knife manufacturing. :) A quality knife from companies like Cold Steel, Benchmade, Spyderco, etc has a good lock mechanism and is not going to close on you. Someone that is serious about using a knife as a defensive weapon shouldn't be carrying around a piece of s...t with a cheap lock mechanism.

Emerson for the win ;)

[KPM]

Tactics Tactics Tactics, no mind response , instinctive % based on survival not points.


Its a strategy of the whole VT system , for a reason. Your fighting and talking hypothetically . .

If you see moving in and out as the strategy for the whole system, then we must be doing different systems! The strategy I use is to bridge in, contol, take his space and unbalance him, then finish him off. "Take his space and smash his face!" "If he's in your way, make him pay!" I see WCK as a "contact" fighting method. Not a method for standing at a distance and boxing....whether with empty hands or with the knives.

As far as the Butterfly Knives being the foundation for the whole system.....Fung Chun (who is the elder statesman of Wing Chun and head of the Ku Lo system) was asked in an interview about the Butterfly knives taught by Leung Jan. His reply was that as far as he knew (and Leung Jan was his Si Gung), Leung Jan didn't teach the knives when he retired to Ku Lo village! :eek:

[k gledhill]

It is confusing ;) it is one system... same tactics , FLANKING to gain a dominating position . lin sil di da.
One requires flanking, close quarters, maintained to not allow facing by assaulting in an endless barrage..er eh yeah hehe :D
...one requires flanking while delivering a killing stroke ...no need to raise the percentages of you getting a last mans dying action....A cut throat, stabbed liver , disembowelment...can be messy , best step back and watch them bleed ..they wont know for a little so avoid wild chops :D

Blood is very slippery when its spilled .

Your enthusiasm is blinding you :D If you attack me while I have a couple of knives , and I sit waiting for your entry....how would you come ? what would I do ? then you see your fighting yourself ...it becomes quality control. Looking for mistakes you might make. VT doesn't fight VT.

[bennyvt]

I thought leung Jan taught a modified version of VT in Gu Lao ( hopeing same place) using drills like the two person drills they do. I have been told this can be a good way of learning as it is quicker but you need to be training with experts or jus tyour teacher to not be really bad habits. I didnt know they dont do the knives though.
I was not saying that the VT knives were more usefull then the folder I was comenting on the fact that they are more usefull as you can carry them around. Unless your in the bush or can prove you use it for work you cant carry it unless in a tool box which makes it hard to pull out when needed. I meant that the princibles can be adapted to anything smaller then about a foot, so a baton (or torch which I carry for work), thick stick, magazine (my favourite for demo's. My teachers teacher once had to use one to defend himself against I knife weilding man on the MTR in Hong Kong). The difference is now instead of using the blade it becomes more of an impact weapon which can be thought of as a small diference between chopping and hitting.

[anerlich]

AS others have said, a quality combat folder is NOT going to close on you unless you want it to.

A fixed blade may have advantages, more options with the grip, plus the possibility of guards, etc. but the folder has the, um, edge with regard to ease of carrying and concealment.

Using a combat folder in the way described is dangerous; any knife fight is dangerous, serious injury or death is a possible outcome.

One of the more psycho people I've met through MA involvement was fined $1500 AUS when police found a knife on him.

I'd only consider a knife for defense during a home invasion or similar when I had access to the kitchen drawers and they weren't satisfied with just taking property.

IMO professional warriors generally rely on better weapons, unless they have to neutralise sentries or whatever. The citizen IMO is better learning to use impact weapons. You can even take a cane or a mini maglite with keys attached on a commercial plane. The father of a friend of mine successfully defended himself against two young would be muggers with his cane - he was 82 at the time.

[KPM]

Your enthusiasm is blinding you :D If you attack me while I have a couple of knives , and I sit waiting for your entry....how would you come ? what would I do ? then you see your fighting yourself ...it becomes quality control. Looking for mistakes you might make. VT doesn't fight VT.

No. You're talking about fighting with Butterfly knives. I'm talking about fighting with a tactical folder. Two very different things.

[KPM]

IMO professional warriors generally rely on better weapons, unless they have to neutralise sentries or whatever. The citizen IMO is better learning to use impact weapons. You can even take a cane or a mini maglite with keys attached on a commercial plane. .

Good point! The Drawpoint method works great with a maglite held so that the majority of it protrudes from the bottom of the fist. :)

[k gledhill]

No. You're talking about fighting with Butterfly knives. I'm talking about fighting with a tactical folder. Two very different things.


thats the problem :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have lived in places where a fixed blade or a lock blade, considered the same thing, were strictly illegal. Only folders under a certain length and no lock blades. It is hard to explain a big lock bladed combat knife. A small pocket knife that some consider a piece of **** will kill you just as quickly. I can attest to the danger threat of a knife. I have been stabbed in my back, my left chest twice, and through my right hand just between the Y of the hand and the wrist bone.
I have always carried a knife. A small knife with a blade about 2 1/2 inches long and 2 smaller blades about an inch and a half long. All razor sharp, and I know how to use one.
I collect knives. I have knives I brought home from Southeast Asia. I have a few I personally made. But the most deadly killing knife I have ever seen was a simple razor blade box cutter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never had that much faith in folders or people's ability to draw and use them, until a few years ago when a friend of mine introduced me to a FMA and we had that debate, so, the next day we went to where my buddy works at the local supermarket and went into the butcher area and he demo'd me what a tactical folder can do in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.
Lets just say that since that day, my respect for quality folders jumped 1000%.
years later I carry a Emerson CQB and I know how to use it.
Will I ever?
I hope not, certainly I don't think of it as a "crutch", but I have tried to train myself to see if for what it is, a tool - you fight me empty hands, I fight you empty hands, you pull a weapon...well then...

Note: The FMA drew his folder and did 3 deep cuts into a side of beef and withdrew to a 'safe distance" before I even knew what was going on.

[KPM]

I have lived in places where a fixed blade or a lock blade, considered the same thing, were strictly illegal. Only folders under a certain length and no lock blades. It is hard to explain a big lock bladed combat knife. A small pocket knife that some consider a piece of **** will kill you just as quickly. I can attest to the danger threat of a knife. I have been stabbed in my back, my left chest twice, and through my right hand just between the Y of the hand and the wrist bone.
I have always carried a knife. A small knife with a blade about 2 1/2 inches long and 2 smaller blades about an inch and a half long. All razor sharp, and I know how to use one.
I collect knives. I have knives I brought home from Southeast Asia. I have a few I personally made. But the most deadly killing knife I have ever seen was a simple razor blade box cutter.

Hi Lee

I agree with what you write. But in your original post you talked about the knive being a danger to the user, not the attacker. I simply pointed out that a modern quality tactical folder is NOT going to close on your hand.

[KPM]

thats the problem :D

Maybe so! But if you go back to the beginning of this thread, it has been about using a tactical folder with Wing Chun, not about the Wing Chun Butterfly Knives.

[k gledhill]

Im trying to clarify the tactical VT knife side of your thread. We dont attack with OUR knives by sticking .

you wrote this ; "If you see moving in and out as the strategy for the whole system, then we must be doing different systems! The strategy I use is to bridge in, contol, take his space and unbalance him, then finish him off. "Take his space and smash his face!" "If he's in your way, make him pay!" I see WCK as a "contact" fighting method. Not a method for standing at a distance and boxing....whether with empty hands or with the knives."



Just clarifying the VT knife thinking ...

You don't share my way of doing VT , thats fine , I just don't want anyone thinking I share yours. ;)

we don't move in and out for both, just the knives . We don't stick to people when using VT knives.

[KPM]

Im trying to clarify the tactical VT knife side of your thread. We dont attack with OUR knives by sticking .

you wrote this ; "If you see moving in and out as the strategy for the whole system, then we must be doing different systems! The strategy I use is to bridge in, contol, take his space and unbalance him, then finish him off. "Take his space and smash his face!" "If he's in your way, make him pay!" I see WCK as a "contact" fighting method. Not a method for standing at a distance and boxing....whether with empty hands or with the knives."



Just clarifying the VT knife thinking ...

You don't share my way of doing VT , thats fine , I just don't want anyone thinking I share yours. ;)

we don't move in and out for both, just the knives . We don't stick to people when using VT knives.

Far enough! But it sounded like you were discounting what I was saying about using a tactical folder. :confused:

[Lee Chiang Po]

Keith, I agree with you on the tactical folders. Much thought usually goes into the making of these knives. Especially knives ment for combat. I was more talking about the pocket knife that is used in self defence combat. Some guys tend to like knives and will use them rather than go bare handed. Fighting a man with a knife is very dangerous. There is really no way to take that knife from him without getting cut. You can almost always count on that. The best way to fight a knife man is to stay out of his reach and let him make the inrun. Never attack his position or you stand a real chance of getting killed. I like to lead with the blade and make him have to come around it to get at me. This way I am laying in wait and he has to brave my defenses. I will just cut his arm and try to severe tendons so that he can not use the blade on me. If I cut an artery it will usually stop his advance unless he is absolutely freaked out and then you hope for a tendon cut to make it impossible to hold the knife. If you occupy your center line with the blade he must come around to get to you, and you must watch his knife hand intently. I used to have a couple of those old straight razors. For some reason those things send peoples hair standing on the back of their neck. A simple flesh cut can actually bleed you out when cut with a razor or something as sharp as a razor. A clean cut like that is hard to stop the bleeding.

[k gledhill]

i knew a guy who worked a local pub doing security work. He would freak out [suits] guys acting up after a few drinks , by using a cut-throat [ sounds like your straight razor] to grab the guys tie and cut it off :D...said they usually quieted down :D...

Your last post sounds like a VT Knife tactical lesson :D

I used to teach at a gun club , we would teach safety etc... but NEVER took our eyes off a novice with a loaded gun..if they turned [ and they did :rolleyes:] with the gun to ask a question all the guys who worked there would duck like an invisible ladder just got turned at them :D:D:D same thing happens with a knife...it comes at you, you move to get space , safety anywhere that isnt in front of the weapon pointing at you...then it becomes a contest and we feint here, there , stab etc... slashing attacks to hands , whos going to be the bull and whos' the funny looking guy in tights :confused:
This should be in the chi-sao drills and tactical face offs for training to fight entry and counter ...we dont attack the center [ we can... but % no good ] ...2 much going on there ....a side ? which one ?...I know I'll wait and let the guy make his move , at the last split second as hes committed himself I'll counter his arm with my blade...one cut , sharp penetrating slash to the bone...he decides to go sit down and rest for a while...:D

[KPM]

I know I'll wait and let the guy make his move , at the last split second as hes committed himself I'll counter his arm with my blade...one cut , sharp penetrating slash to the bone...he decides to go sit down and rest for a while...:D

Or maybe not! :eek: Maybe he's so hyped on adrenalin or drugs that he doesn't even feel your cut. Maybe his next move is to redirect his thrust to an outward cut the catches you across the midsection before you can move away because you failed to check his arm after making your own cut. You haven't controlled his arm in any way. Maybe your first cut got his attention or made him drop his knife, but maybe not! Do you want to count on that? Like I said before, that "in and out" strategy with a small tactical folder is not a good idea. Better to do the initial cut, immediately gain control of his attacking limb, cut again, then make sure he is either disabled or off-balanced before you move away from him. If you have the opportunity to cut multiples times on an entry you should do it. If you are "sniping" from a longer range where he can't really reach you, then "in and out" can work. But that is only one range in a knife-fight, and usually not the most common one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good knife fighting follows the rules of any good fighting:
Never think that one move ( or two, or three) is enough and always be on the look out the other weapon(s).

[k gledhill]

We can control too ;).... knives are extensions of the hand , part of the idea is to always have a checking position while delivering the other hand with a knife in it of course. But without chasing , like bare hands , off our centerlines.
Like The basic ideas of the system, we always have a rear guard to 'be there' without thinking , to catch the wild swing to our throat...the system deals with a 'no think' mentality of having positions that by design intercept as they also attack , so we can attack and be the offensive leader in the assault once the positions of the scenario are established..all at hight speed no thinking ,with simple ideas working in unison to a common goal, survival by using concepts to guide us that are proven to be a safer bet...survival.


When I say in and out I don't mean literally jumping in and jumping out :D I mean dont hang out after the business is done to watch close up and trade blows with a guy like your a pirate in a movie, who, as you say can be freaking out on you , high , adrenalined up. Or delivering a dying mans last actions.

We can stick to people , only not in the way you speak of. We stick to proximity of a position/s guided by a tactical design to minimize the strengths of the opponent. This can lead to staying close but not inside center positions. Our whole technical repetoire is based on attacking flanks. We never attack the dummy center , we go into its sides , or fight a line in front like a base line /protractor that leads to entry to either side if offered. We let the opponent move and show us the 'way'.

Think % and doing it more than once , like bare hands , in a water fight its best to avoid getting even a few drops on you . The longer you stand and fight centers the greater your chance of becoming soaked...%...
Sh&t happens , there are other ideas we have from bil gee...ducking for one , that works :D, getting our hand free from being grabbed etc...recovery of a trapped or lost position..etc... all backing you up , as is the previous training with bare hands , only now its at a wider distance using different footwork . All with one idea working subconsciously.
Ingrained and instinctive to maneuver to a position that affords YOU the greatest edge [sorry] over anyone , their side , and not to fight a knife wielding maniac front and center at his greatest strength to use both hands on you.

[k gledhill]

Good knife fighting follows the rules of any good fighting:
Never think that one move ( or two, or three) is enough and always be on the look out the other weapon(s).

agreed, you 'never think' that is the best part, it should be instinctive from training , not a 'rabbit in the headlights' response :D

[KPM]

We can control too ;).... knives are extensions of the hand , part of the idea is to always have a checking position while delivering the other hand with a knife in it of course. But without chasing , like bare hands , off our centerlines.
Like The basic ideas of the system, we always have a rear guard to 'be there' without thinking , to catch the wild swing to our throat....

Again Kevin, that's not good enough when it comes to fighting with a tactical folder. You're still thinking in terms of the Butterfly knives, and that's not a good approach with the small knife. You can't rely on a passive checking hand to "be there" or to "catch the wild swing." There is just too much at stake when a live blade is concerned. The better approach is to control from the start and not passively wait for his next cut or thrust. I'm not advocating standing in front of the water hose and increasing the chances of getting wet. I'm advocating gaining control of the nozzle so that the hose can't be redirected at you! :)

[couch]

Again Kevin, that's not good enough when it comes to fighting with a tactical folder. You're still thinking in terms of the Butterfly knives, and that's not a good approach with the small knife. You can't rely on a passive checking hand to "be there" or to "catch the wild swing." There is just too much at stake when a live blade is concerned. The better approach is to control from the start and not passively wait for his next cut or thrust. I'm not advocating standing in front of the water hose and increasing the chances of getting wet. I'm advocating gaining control of the nozzle so that the hose can't be redirected at you! :)

When you perform Lop Sau, you don't use a thumb.

You only use a thumb when you want to pull or they have a weapon. In other words, control the hose - never let go.

At the (in)famous Temple Kung-Fu, there was probably one thing that was the best of my training: 5 knife-fighting rules:

1. Run
2. Give them what they want
3. Even up the odds
4. Search for higher ground
5. Never let go

YMMV,
Kenton

[Tom Kagan]

One of my martial friends suggests wing chun is based around the baat Cham Dao rather than the empty hands! Appart from the techniques and priciples he suggests that if it was a revolutionary style, why would you train more empty hands than weapons?

Good question. :)

The system and its training progression is chock full of these apparent contradictions and paradoxes.

[k gledhill]

simple many dont know the VT knives or the ideas of the VT knives ;) :D You already are doing 'empty' VT knife hands 'bare handed' in forms ...which ones ? ..like I said guys dont know , simple reason.


to kpm:
Keith we can do grabbing too...Im just talking TACTICS...bil gee grabbing lop sao etc...last resort to control a hand , ie I'm bare handed facing a knife.

Your hell bent on getting stuck in , be my guest and all the luck to you ;)

[KPM]

simple many dont know the knives or the ideas of the knives ;) :D You already are doing 'empty' knife hands 'bare handed' in forms ...which ones ? ..like I said guys dont know , simple reason.



Keith we can do grabbing too...Im just talking TACTICS...bil gee grabbing lop sao etc...last resort to control a hand , ie I'm bare handed facing a knife.

Your hell bent on getting stuck in , be my guest and all the luck to you ;)

Whatever you say man! :rolleyes: I've done a lot of training with the tactical folder. Have you?

[k gledhill]

I train VT . :D good enough for me. Its your life you fight like you want to .If VT helps you then all the better.

[KPM]

I train VT . :D good enough for me. Its your life you fight like you want to .If VT helps you then all the better.

Don't get stuck in a rut! VT was not designed for the kind of fight involving a tactical folder. It can be easily adapted, but you have to train for it. Don't expect it to translate over directly, or you may get a very rude and dangerous surprise!

[k gledhill]

The Vt bare hands don't mix with a small knife , due to the X ing at the wrists .
Our VT knives do not X on the centerline as the bare hands ...

The essence of the bare hands is to intersect its own centerline while striking in rotation x'ing the c'line with our wrists slightly . By design this means anything traveling into us on our centerline will be intercepted 'without' thinking as we attack across , possible converging lines of force along a flank. Because a straight line meets a line like an intersection on a road, we simply drive our 2 cars along the road xing the other ...if a car gets in our way we use the follwing car to keep going across by using [ pak/jut'etc] , we dont stand in the middle of a 2 lane highway , turning to face each car coming at us . We have the option of moving to either side of the incoming traffic so we only deal with one lane at a time as we move .
Further to knife and wrists of vt.
The shaving hands, aka tut sao/senk sao, are the basis of maintaining a perpetual , impenetrable attack/defense line , without opening our own line. A seamless line covering action, like a bullet in the clip , rotating into the barrel before the firing pin strikes .
If I use a blade the seamless 'idea' would mean I would be dragging a blade across my own forearm to the target every time I re-chambered my hand under the other extended arm Im striking with or trapping with

...my point is that adopting a tactical folder [ aka a small knife] I wouldn't be doing what I spend 1000's of hours trying to ingrain into myself. Under stress of a real fight , you will do what you train without thinking ..or not as the case may be under extreme stress. I rate someone trying to kill you with a knife as extreme.

I had the knives and the 2 different methods explained to me for these reasons . If you X your own arms with a knife ....you are your own enemy. I see guys turning the blades inside their own arms , trying to do a high /low gaun sao from bil gee :confused: opening up their own forearms simply to make room for the blades :o wrong .

If you hold the knives you wont be able to X your own line or travel underneath without dragging a blade across your own arm

Im explaining like this to try to give you insight to my reasons for responding like I have ...many dont understand this idea , and try to make the system one of random applications and traps , in a self defense idea with blocks for this and a hand move for that...

I write to enlighten . many dont know the knife ideas, and try to use the bare handed ones for them....NOT ;)

Your not wrong saying they are similar , just dont confuse the 2 ...hold the knife blade down and you might slice your own arm 'without thinking'.

[KPM]

The Vt bare hands don't mix with a small knife , due to the X ing at the wrists .
Our VT knives do not X on the centerline as the bare hands ...

The essence of the bare hands is to intersect its own centerline while striking in rotation x'ing the c'line with our wrists slightly . By design this means anything traveling into us on our centerline will be intercepted 'without' thinking as we attack across , possible converging lines of force along a flank. Because a straight line meets a line like an intersection on a road, we simply drive our 2 cars along the road xing the other ...if a car gets in our way we use the follwing car to keep going across by using [ pak/jut'etc] , we dont stand in the middle of a 2 lane highway , turning to face each car coming at us . We have the option of moving to either side of the incoming traffic so we only deal with one lane at a time as we move .
Further to knife and wrists of vt.
The shaving hands, aka tut sao/senk sao, are the basis of maintaining a perpetual , impenetrable attack/defense line , without opening our own line. A seamless line covering action, like a bullet in the clip , rotating into the barrel before the firing pin strikes .
If I use a blade the seamless 'idea' would mean I would be dragging a blade across my own forearm to the target every time I re-chambered my hand under the other extended arm Im striking with or trapping with

...my point is that adopting a tactical folder [ aka a small knife] I wouldn't be doing what I spend 1000's of hours trying to ingrain into myself. Under stress of a real fight , you will do what you train without thinking ..or not as the case may be under extreme stress. I rate someone trying to kill you with a knife as extreme.

I had the knives and the 2 different methods explained to me for these reasons . If you X your own arms with a knife ....you are your own enemy. I see guys turning the blades inside their own arms , trying to do a high /low gaun sao from bil gee :confused: opening up their own forearms simply to make room for the blades :o wrong .

If you hold the knives you wont be able to X your own line or travel underneath without dragging a blade across your own arm

Im explaining like this to try to give you insight to my reasons for responding like I have ...many dont understand this idea , and try to make the system one of random applications and traps , in a self defense idea with blocks for this and a hand move for that...

I write to enlighten . many dont know the knife ideas, and try to use the bare handed ones for them....NOT ;)

Your not wrong saying they are similar , just dont confuse the 2 ...hold the knife blade down and you might slice your own arm 'without thinking'.


Good post Kev! I agree with your points. The things that you mention are exactly why I have stated that I find my "Wing Chun Mantis" adaptations are a better fit with the tactical folder than "regular" Wing Chun. I don't approach things tactically like you describe, but I can see what you're saying. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Translating knife work into empty hands is one thing ( and not that great at all) but translating empty into knife is a can of worms I can do without.

[KPM]

Translating knife work into empty hands is one thing ( and not that great at all) but translating empty into knife is a can of worms I can do without.

Yeah. That's why it takes training in the use of the tactical folder specifically. I wouldn't encourage anyone to believe that they can just pick up a the small knife and expect to do Wing Chun with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Knives in general actually.
Funny thing, train with any weapon long enough and the moment you feel it in your hand the correct moves come out, or at least the moves you've trained with said weapon come out.
The mind undertands the stimuli of the feel of the weapon and accesses the correct pathways.