Wing Chun Specialization...

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've been saying this for years now: that wing chun is first and foremost a standup very close quarter striking art - which is why I've added some elements of boxing, MT, and submission style catch wrestling to what I do.

Now the following are some excerpts of a thread entitled "Wing Chun Sucks" from the kung fu forum. Forget the title for a moment and take a look at some of what was said - it's a very interesting read.

....................................

"Realistically though, if you compare it to Muay Thai...the style is too short, tight and subtle for the devasting onslaught of the Thai's Smashing Elephant elbows. IMO, for WC/VT to win in a cage match you'd have to know how to fight in that venue and then you could pull out your subtle skills. I feel if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."

"wing chun/ving tsun hardly moves the shoulders which does nothing for power when wrestling...muay thai choy li fut hop ga really whip their shoulders giving them the dragon back which is the main stance for clinching...WC/VT doesn't do this imo because it is advanced Gung Fu...you gotta be very skilled and very intelligent to use it against champions. It's elite Gung Fu in theory!"

"….Whereas karate plays with all ranges of combat, wing chun deals with the range of refinement."

"I guess my point is that if you have to learn another fighting system before you can make yours work, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't need to practice Muay Thai in order to be an effective Wing Chun fighter. And I don't think a style that can't produce fighters on its own could possibly be considered more refined than one that works right away. Either WC works or it doesn't...."

"In theory I agree, but the reality is they spend a year doing Sil Lim Tao before they spar from what I've read. I haven't seen any Wing Chun fighters...Choy Li Fut walks through the horse and works on combos for the first year, it's a scrapping style...Wing Chun is a fighting art...the whole not really moving the shoulders when punching is useless for a beginner, to apply that against a powerful opponent you'd need years of sensitivity training."

"Imo, if you want to get good at Wing Chun, get good at MMA fighting and then learn the Art of Wing Chun. I feel the stance is incomplete on it's own..."

"Wing Chun was my first martial art when I was very young. It does have benefits, but it also has one huge weakness. The strikes are simply not powerful enough. When we do Chi Sao, we train to trap the hands, get in close and elbow, punch, etc. But here's the problem. What happens if your opponent is full of rage and adrenalin and one or two close range hits doesn't drop him? That's the reason why I learned Boxing and Choy Lay Fut. Those arts have KO punches using the torque of your body that will drop a guy. You will NOT be able to generate significant power from such a close range as in Wing Chun. You can do all the inch training you want to on wall bags, but it won't really help you in a real fight. I must say though that if you combine the trapping of Wing Chun with a more powerful art, it's very effective. Wing Chun by itself, sorry to say, does indeed suck."

"Wing Chun was originally made up by people who had ALREADY mastered other styles. The took the what they thought were the best principles and made up wing chun. What many wing chunners forget is that these masters already had conditioned hands for grappling, considerable fighting experience, and tempered spirits from years of training. If you just train in wing chun you might be missing out on other elements."

[Matrix]

The thread name refers to the Bulshido video that we all know love, and the subsequent comments are made by some people who admit limited experience with Wing Chun. So what's the point in responding to that type of discussion?
As Bruce Lee said in Enter the Dragon - "Don't waste yourself".

[Vajramusti]

No point in over-reacting to the general forum thread.

But- Victor's POV is different from mine FWIW. Wing chun provides great skill development to individuals. But it is upto individuals to adapt to different conditions.
But if someone feels the need of mixing other things with their wc-that is upto them.

joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

But- Victor's POV is different from mine FWIW. Wing chun provides great skill development to individuals. But it is upto individuals to adapt to different conditions.
But if someone feels the need of mixing other things with their wc-that is upto them.Joy,
I think we're on the same page here as well. :cool:

Bill

[monji112000]

I've been saying this for years now: that wing chun is first and foremost a standup very close quarter striking art - which is why I've added some elements of boxing, MT, and submission style catch wrestling to what I do.


were do you train MT or catch? How often?

[kung fu fighter]

What exactly is the dragon back?
is this torque/ hip rotation like in boxing?

Here is another link to the weaknesses of wing chun!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=35&topic=107.0

[Phil Redmond]

I fight standup with nothing but WC and so do the students here. They're winning in full contact events so I don't feel the need to add boxing or MT. So I guess it's an individual decision.

[couch]

I fight standup with nothing but WC and so do the students here. They're winning in full contact events so I don't feel the need to add boxing or MT. So I guess it's an individual decision.

I think it has to do with a couple of things:

1. That you can bang with it
2. That you are open minded about what is actually IN your Wing Chun

Best,
Kenton

[Ultimatewingchun]

1) I'm not interested in responding to the guys on the other thread - that's not why I started this thread. Much of their analysis is totally meaningless - so why bother?

2) Fighting full contact standup tournaments - as good as that is for experience - does not address the issues I'm raising here: ie.- why some long range boxing moves and some MT knee and elbow striking from the clinch - along with genuine wrestling/grappling skills - when up against those truly skilled in clinch fighting, shoots, takedowns, and wrestling/grappling both in clinch and on the ground - makes sense...when there are no rules.

(Or close to no rules - as in mma).

I mentioned these excerpts because they provide some interesting outsider's perspectives on wing chun's strengths and weaknesses.

The reaction here was predictable (circle the wagons). ;) :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Actually the most interesting pespective of all on that thread about wing chun (for me) was the idea that some people over there have to the effect that wing chun is an elite fighting system that requires much experience (presumably in other systems) to be fully appreciated. I actually thought of Gary Lam when I read this part, for example:

"Realistically though, if you compare it to Muay Thai...the style is too short, tight and subtle for the devasting onslaught of the Thai's Smashing Elephant elbows. IMO, for WC/VT to win in a cage match you'd have to know how to fight in that venue and then you could pull out your subtle skills. I feel if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."


***VERY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE.

And I was also reminded of William Cheung when I first met him and began training under him when he was still in his early forties....he seemed to know quite a bit about how other stylists like boxers think and move...the importance of using roundhouse kicks to the legs (and how to defend them)...the importance of a more mobile and fluid footwork - including when delivering punches of your own from the lead hand as a means of attack while using the wu sao as the second line of defense from a not facing your centerline to his center position (ie.- the importance of not always facing your centerline to the opponent's center as you're working your way in from longer ranges), etc.

[diego]

I've been saying this for years now: that wing chun is first and foremost a standup very close quarter striking art - which is why I've added some elements of boxing, MT, and submission style catch wrestling to what I do.

Now the following are some excerpts of a thread entitled "Wing Chun Sucks" from the kung fu forum. Forget the title for a moment and take a look at some of what was said - it's a very interesting read.

....................................

"Realistically though, if you compare it to Muay Thai...the style is too short, tight and subtle for the devasting onslaught of the Thai's Smashing Elephant elbows. IMO, for WC/VT to win in a cage match you'd have to know how to fight in that venue and then you could pull out your subtle skills. I feel if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."

"wing chun/ving tsun hardly moves the shoulders which does nothing for power when wrestling...muay thai choy li fut hop ga really whip their shoulders giving them the dragon back which is the main stance for clinching...WC/VT doesn't do this imo because it is advanced Gung Fu...you gotta be very skilled and very intelligent to use it against champions. It's elite Gung Fu in theory!"

"….Whereas karate plays with all ranges of combat, wing chun deals with the range of refinement."

"I guess my point is that if you have to learn another fighting system before you can make yours work, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't need to practice Muay Thai in order to be an effective Wing Chun fighter. And I don't think a style that can't produce fighters on its own could possibly be considered more refined than one that works right away. Either WC works or it doesn't...."

"In theory I agree, but the reality is they spend a year doing Sil Lim Tao before they spar from what I've read. I haven't seen any Wing Chun fighters...Choy Li Fut walks through the horse and works on combos for the first year, it's a scrapping style...Wing Chun is a fighting art...the whole not really moving the shoulders when punching is useless for a beginner, to apply that against a powerful opponent you'd need years of sensitivity training."

"Imo, if you want to get good at Wing Chun, get good at MMA fighting and then learn the Art of Wing Chun. I feel the stance is incomplete on it's own..."

"Wing Chun was my first martial art when I was very young. It does have benefits, but it also has one huge weakness. The strikes are simply not powerful enough. When we do Chi Sao, we train to trap the hands, get in close and elbow, punch, etc. But here's the problem. What happens if your opponent is full of rage and adrenalin and one or two close range hits doesn't drop him? That's the reason why I learned Boxing and Choy Lay Fut. Those arts have KO punches using the torque of your body that will drop a guy. You will NOT be able to generate significant power from such a close range as in Wing Chun. You can do all the inch training you want to on wall bags, but it won't really help you in a real fight. I must say though that if you combine the trapping of Wing Chun with a more powerful art, it's very effective. Wing Chun by itself, sorry to say, does indeed suck."

"Wing Chun was originally made up by people who had ALREADY mastered other styles. The took the what they thought were the best principles and made up wing chun. What many wing chunners forget is that these masters already had conditioned hands for grappling, considerable fighting experience, and tempered spirits from years of training. If you just train in wing chun you might be missing out on other elements."


Hello Victor, I just wanted to add again in case some of the other WC/VT vets read this...I love the style, it's what got me into chinese martial arts...I hate the popular kung fu media, it saddens me that the commies and hollywood business men killed all the masters...then I see Bullshido videos, I thought I'd drop my analysis on the state of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun...from a fans point of view.

The Hop Ga I do has way more technique than wing chun...but the pinpoint closed stance flavor is something special in the martial art world..I feel it is assassin level martial art, not for the masses.

The masses are the reason those bullshido videos are there.

An 1856 revolutionary chinese dude cutting soldiers up with his butterfly swords is no bullshido...wing chun being world reknown because of bruce lee sucks. I can say this as a fan of gung fu because the style I do Hop Ga is not known any where...all the masters were criminal suppossedly...Wing Chun has millions of dollars behind it and thousands of people keeping it alive...as a combat art though, for how popular it is, indeed it does suck!.

[diego]

What exactly is the dragon back?
is this torque/ hip rotation like in boxing?

Here is another link to the weaknesses of wing chun!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=35&topic=107.0

dragon back, sink chest hunch shoulders outsretched claws...famous in dragon form, wrestlers do it as an on gaurd posture.:)

Got the name from Park Bok Nam's Bagua book.

[Vajramusti]

The Hop Ga I do has way more technique than wing chun...

((You have to know enough about two things to make such comparisons))


but the pinpoint closed stance flavor is something special in the martial art world..I feel it is assassin level martial art, not for the masses.

((Feel does it equal know?))

The masses are the reason those bullshido videos are there

((my deliberate ignorance of bullshido.Time is precious))

((Lots of money behind wing chun?? Not really IMO- except for one or two businessmen))

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

Actually the most interesting pespective of all on that thread about wing chun (for me) was the idea that some people over there have to the effect that wing chun is an elite fighting system that requires much experience (presumably in other systems) to be fully appreciated.


I think it's a mistaken idea.
Essentially "elite" implies that it's a bit too hard for them to pull off!
People learn about WC and they see that nothing physically is restricting them from doing it yet they don't manage to make it work.

There's nothing particularly elite about WC at all but people have the impression that it's like a KF movie. They are going to be sadly disappointed until they realise that:
1. WC is a skill that takes correct practice and training over time to get any good.
2. You're going to look like crap when you're still learning what you're doing.
3. It's still real fighting not some jedi BS.

WC *can* complement another art.
Yeah it's got it's strengths and weaknesses. Every art has. But actually as a first art for a complete beginner it's great. It's completely suited to the beginner. Beginners don't need a bucketload of techniques and stances! They don't need all these wacky footwork patterns, angles and different punches.



And I was also reminded of William Cheung when I first met him and began training under him when he was still in his early forties....he seemed to know quite a bit about how other stylists like boxers think and move.

I think it's a case of knowing about fighting. Some people have less experience than others hence they teach based off their perspective as best they can. A WC teacher doesn't know everything under the sun. And why should people expect them to have every single answer to be a worthwhile teacher?

Should you expect them to have every solution for all "what if" situations? Some have experience vs boxers, others vs grapplers. Hence you have to study with whoever has the skills that you want to learn.

[diego]

The Hop Ga I do has way more technique than wing chun...

((You have to know enough about two things to make such comparisons))


but the pinpoint closed stance flavor is something special in the martial art world..I feel it is assassin level martial art, not for the masses.

((Feel does it equal know?))

The masses are the reason those bullshido videos are there

((my deliberate ignorance of bullshido.Time is precious))

((Lots of money behind wing chun?? Not really IMO- except for one or two businessmen))

joy chaudhuri

The Ving Tsun musuem wasn't a two thousand dollar venture, lol...wasn't it like a million?...since 1980 millions have been sold in WC/VT merchandise.

I've been doing the method of Hop Ga I do for ten years I'm aware of the basics..You guys do sun fist and uppercut in your forms...we got those and swing punches...we got tornado kicks...it's a better work out than the three wing chun forms. The Wing Chun frame is something special imo...I have no idea what offends you besides bullshido made a couple funny videos. I made the thread trying to prove them wrong, and I did. Wing Chun was used by revolutionaries, it's a simple method of killing with the blades and pole. The hand to hand system is something else...look how the karate guy tooled the wing chun guys stance in that video...the stance may look like it's lacking but that's because it comes from something bigger, it's specialty animal methods based on the forms from shaolin which influenced the Hung and CLF styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually the most interesting pespective of all on that thread about wing chun (for me) was the idea that some people over there have to the effect that wing chun is an elite fighting system that requires much experience (presumably in other systems) to be fully appreciated. I actually thought of Gary Lam when I read this part, for example:

"Realistically though, if you compare it to Muay Thai...the style is too short, tight and subtle for the devasting onslaught of the Thai's Smashing Elephant elbows. IMO, for WC/VT to win in a cage match you'd have to know how to fight in that venue and then you could pull out your subtle skills. I feel if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."


***VERY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE.

And I was also reminded of William Cheung when I first met him and began training under him when he was still in his early forties....he seemed to know quite a bit about how other stylists like boxers think and move...the importance of using roundhouse kicks to the legs (and how to defend them)...the importance of a more mobile and fluid footwork - including when delivering punches of your own from the lead hand as a means of attack while using the wu sao as the second line of defense from a not facing your centerline to his center position (ie.- the importance of not always facing your centerline to the opponent's center as you're working your way in from longer ranges), etc.

To be truthful, I am of the same view, it seems from what I have gathered that WC is best suited for people with prior MA experince.
Its not to say that one MUSt have prior MA experience, just that, like SPM foe example, it seems better suited for someone with an established "power base".
Its not a critique, just an observation of people who I have seen use WC in the ring or on the street.

[couch]

I think that the reason there are styles is because of personal preference, etc, but more importantly just a method.

I think that a martial art is designed to take someone who knows nothing of fighting and combat from -3 to 0 so to speak. Then it's up to the practitioner to do what they want with their new ability. No matter what martial art you're studying, it will always be helpful if there was training in the past. I don't feel it is necessary, though. I also think that once you've been bitten by the martial art bug, all you want is more...and why not? Fighting is just that: fighting.

Wing Chun as a stand-alone self-defense system? Sure.
Wing Chun as a compliment system? Sure.
Wing Chun as however I want to portray it and use it? Of course.

My Wing Chun,
Kenton

[YungChun]

I think it has to do with a couple of things:

1. That you can bang with it
2. That you are open minded about what is actually IN your Wing Chun


Ahhhh....yes..

And as for WCK has no power? LMAO.. Some of my training partners would get bent out of shape and upset when I used about 10% power on their heads.. Either you are hitting with the whole body or not... And there is more than one way to do that in the system, and it doesn't always mean no hip shoulder torque, along with all the other joints used to make power--we have linear power, rotational power and both together, not to mention the qua thing.. Problem is that a lot of folks are hitting with arm power but not body power and they don't know the difference.

[diego]

Ahhhh....yes..

And as for WCK has no power? LMAO.. Some of my training partners would get bent out of shape and upset when I used about 10% power on their heads.. Either you are hitting with the whole body or not... And there is more than one way to do that in the system, and it doesn't always mean no hip shoulder torque, along with all the other joints used to make power--we have linear power, rotational power and both together, not to mention the qua thing.. Problem is that a lot of folks are hitting with arm power but not body power and they don't know the difference.
YOU TUBE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND...ANY VIDEOS ON THIS POWER?

[sanjuro_ronin]

YOU TUBE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND...ANY VIDEOS ON THIS POWER?

Dude, quit yelling.
Just search for Emin on youtube.
:D

[diego]

Dude, quit yelling.
Just search for Emin on youtube.
:D
I'm not yelling...i have a voice disorder, one in two billion people are afflicted with this disorder which makes you think out loud... you ********. I didn't say that i was muttering under my breath, *****. I didn't say that either.

LOL, you see that saturday night live skit?.sihing thanks for editing the humour in my post.cheers

[OneHitter]

dragon back, sink chest hunch shoulders outsretched claws...famous in dragon form, wrestlers do it as an on gaurd posture.:)

Got the name from Park Bok Nam's Bagua book.

I would just like to respond to this I rarely post on here because there is way to much political BS on here. To the point the way we train in my school is precisely what you would call dragon back. The back is rounded, the chest is sunken, the stomach is relaxed and released, the shoulders are also sunk. All movements are initiated from the legs then hips then abdominal then upper body but when reaching the upper body rather then raising and activating the shoulders we sink them using the lats solidifying in a instance then relaxing. Not that you have said anything about power in this quote but to everyone that thinks there is no ppower in wing chun punches, those who throw their puches in this manner know otherwise. Peace =) I would also just like to add that this all sounds complicated maybe but it is not it is just broke down. Once practiced and trained it happens just as fast or faster as a jab in boxing.

[Edmund]

I've been doing the method of Hop Ga I do for ten years I'm aware of the basics..You guys do sun fist and uppercut in your forms...we got those and swing punches...we got tornado kicks...it's a better work out than the three wing chun forms. The Wing Chun frame is something special imo...I have no idea what offends you besides bullshido made a couple funny videos. I made the thread trying to prove them wrong, and I did.


How you *apply* the techniques against opponents determines awareness of the basics.

The WC punches in the air are similar to lots of other styles. That doesn't make a Hop Gar person aware of any WC basics at all.

Without any experience in the actual art and a lot of shallow stereotypes of what it entails, you aren't in a position to argue the good and bad points of WC. You've talked about subtlety in WC that you obviously haven't even learnt.

If you have genuine interest in WC but you're conflicted, the *first* thing you should do is clear up all the misconceptions you have! Then maybe you can argue about what you like and don't like.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Hello Victor, I just wanted to add again in case some of the other WC/VT vets read this...I love the style, it's what got me into chinese martial arts...I hate the popular kung fu media, it saddens me that the commies and hollywood business men killed all the masters...then I see Bullshido videos, I thought I'd drop my analysis on the state of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun...from a fans point of view.

The Hop Ga I do has way more technique than wing chun...but the pinpoint closed stance flavor is something special in the martial art world..I feel it is assassin level martial art, not for the masses.

The masses are the reason those bullshido videos are there." (diego)


***I HAPPEN TO AGREE with almost all of what you say (although the actual extent of wing chun concepts, techniques, and strategies may surprise you)...but nonetheless you're on point, imo, diego.

It is an "assassin" level martial art from close quarters - but too few wing chun people can make it so. And yes, imo, your suggestion that understanding (doing) other longer range styles (and I would add wrestling/grappling in there as well)....does make for a clearer understanding of just how effective wing chun can be - from standing close quarters.

It can be devastating at that range.

Truly a paradox is this art, imo. It does seem to suck in the hands of the "masses" - for a multitude of reasons. But at the other end of the spectrum a really good wing chun fighter is a dangerous man.

Kind of like making Gold in the middle ages: 99% charlatan....1% GENIUS.

Doesn't sound like enough return on the investment - does it?

[couch]

Doesn't sound like enough return on the investment - does it?

Hmm...

All in all, I'd say it is! :)

I'm not the best at WC, nor do I preach that I can do it well...but I think I can teach what I've been taught well and integrate. Living out here in the "country" doesn't allow for many people to be taught...but here and there I find the keeners. I guess that's all I want to train with, the people who go home, think about it, actually practice it and come back to work on something the next session. Most often, the keeners aren't students but become "training partners."

It can be frustrating from an instructor's POV, but maybe it's just personal. When I started in martial arts 14 years ago, I was gung-ho all the way. I practiced and practiced and practiced everything I was given. That never changed. What really grinded my gears was when my seniors wouldn't and then things wouldn't be reviewed because it wasn't what they were working on.

So, when I want to teach someone my limited WC knowledge or even exchange some ideas...I want the fanatic. ...that 1% of completely saturated martial art madness!!! Then I feel better about the whole thing.

Best,
Kenton

[sihing]

The 99% vs 1% example is true in all aspects of life. But why does everyone have to be in the top 1% to be a successful human being? IMO the thing is not to be at the extreme side of a sliding ruler, but rather somewhere in the middle is fine. The best fighters, best scientist, best athletes, best business person, best politician, best whatever, are on the extreme end of the scale, the same goes for the worst fighter, worst scientist, worst athlete, worst business person, etc. Living on the extreme in any endeavour is not healthy as there is no balance in life when that is the case.

For me, I could care less if 99% of the WC people or schools out there suck (who is to be the judge of that I don't know, and is it really possible to know if that # is correct?), the fact is there are way to many variables to come to any conclusion as to what classifies one student/school to suck, and one to not. All I know for me is that WC is fun to practice, fun to teach and fun to talk about with like minded people. IMO this is the reason why most of us train in it, as the idea of us having to be super fighters and using those skills on a daily basis is "fantasy thinking" and totally theoretical.

James

[diego]

I would just like to respond to this I rarely post on here because there is way to much political BS on here. To the point the way we train in my school is precisely what you would call dragon back. The back is rounded, the chest is sunken, the stomach is relaxed and released, the shoulders are also sunk. All movements are initiated from the legs then hips then abdominal then upper body but when reaching the upper body rather then raising and activating the shoulders we sink them using the lats solidifying in a instance then relaxing. Not that you have said anything about power in this quote but to everyone that thinks there is no ppower in wing chun punches, those who throw their puches in this manner know otherwise. Peace =) I would also just like to add that this all sounds complicated maybe but it is not it is just broke down. Once practiced and trained it happens just as fast or faster as a jab in boxing.

Interesting, thanks for the info:)...sorry to hear about all the political bs;):D

[diego]

How you *apply* the techniques against opponents determines awareness of the basics.

The WC punches in the air are similar to lots of other styles. That doesn't make a Hop Gar person aware of any WC basics at all.

Without any experience in the actual art and a lot of shallow stereotypes of what it entails, you aren't in a position to argue the good and bad points of WC. You've talked about subtlety in WC that you obviously haven't even learnt.

If you have genuine interest in WC but you're conflicted, the *first* thing you should do is clear up all the misconceptions you have! Then maybe you can argue about what you like and don't like.

yeah, anyway it's not hard to size a dude up when you grew up fighting big people...you guys have some sort of magic that has never been shown on the internet, lol...i seen your masters and i seen mine...i know good gung fu basics. the masses hardly ever seen high level gung fu so what you are saying is not really relevant at all...especially when this all is coming from a fan...you guys sound like jerks. i'm not selling anything, show me the real if I'm so not knowing...

[diego]

ip man's dummy set is pretty basic gung fu fighting technique...in a real fight you only gonna use your basics...there is no magic in wing chun.

[diego]

"Hello Victor, I just wanted to add again in case some of the other WC/VT vets read this...I love the style, it's what got me into chinese martial arts...I hate the popular kung fu media, it saddens me that the commies and hollywood business men killed all the masters...then I see Bullshido videos, I thought I'd drop my analysis on the state of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun...from a fans point of view.

The Hop Ga I do has way more technique than wing chun...but the pinpoint closed stance flavor is something special in the martial art world..I feel it is assassin level martial art, not for the masses.

The masses are the reason those bullshido videos are there." (diego)


***I HAPPEN TO AGREE with almost all of what you say (although the actual extent of wing chun concepts, techniques, and strategies may surprise you)...but nonetheless you're on point, imo, diego.

It is an "assassin" level martial art from close quarters - but too few wing chun people can make it so. And yes, imo, your suggestion that understanding (doing) other longer range styles (and I would add wrestling/grappling in there as well)....does make for a clearer understanding of just how effective wing chun can be - from standing close quarters.

It can be devastating at that range.

Truly a paradox is this art, imo. It does seem to suck in the hands of the "masses" - for a multitude of reasons. But at the other end of the spectrum a really good wing chun fighter is a dangerous man.

Kind of like making Gold in the middle ages: 99% charlatan....1% GENIUS.

Doesn't sound like enough return on the investment - does it?
:cool: Glad we're on the same page, gung fu is my hobby and recreation. I love talking about it. Thank you for adding to my original thread. The Kajukenbo Hop Ga I do was taught to my stepdad by a Philipino chap named Kaido during the 70's in Montreal, Canada. Kaido mastered Kajukenbo which has judo/japanese jujitsu, kenpo/karate, and western/chinese boxing. Kaido also knew the Philipino arts and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what hop ga he got from Harry Ng...the wing chun principles are not hard at all to apply to Kaido's short range footwork..I hope to learn the wing chun butterfly knives in the future, and I really love your guys hook hand bridge to floating palms...you do it in the SLT and the Wooden Dummy set. Kaido uses the hop ga method of one power shot per stane...cat stance back fist, bow stance rear punch...but from the kajukenbo he always tries to get a hit inbetween the stance change...I like his form more than muay thai...how low he gets in his workout would throw the average joe's back out:)..something that would take twenty years to really master...but ten years to really do properly...head doesn't bounce up and down, and the rear knee constantly sweeps the ground while you sink twist float and spin your horse. I can see myself playing the subtle upright method of wing chun when I'm an old man and the kidneys are too tight to be doing proper tornado kicks.

[sihing]

ip man's dummy set is pretty basic gung fu fighting technique...in a real fight you only gonna use your basics...there is no magic in wing chun.


Yip Man's dummy set isn't even fighting technique, it is called training, just like chi sau, forms and the rest of the various curriculums (this is why your assesment of WC is incorrect, you don't even realize what the difference is btwn training and application within the system). You can't judge the figther based on what he does in his training, when he is working on something specific. I guess for you, you are lucky Yip Man is dead, as there is no way for him to fight you to see what happens:p

I do agree that there is no magic formula's in Wing Chun, only hard work and lots of understanding of what you are doing is the key IMO.

James

[Vajramusti]

More Diego pontifications!!

joy chaudhuri

[diego]

Yip Man's dummy set isn't even fighting technique, it is called training, just like chi sau, forms and the rest of the various curriculums (this is why your assesment of WC is incorrect, you don't even realize what the difference is btwn training and application within the system). You can't judge the figther based on what he does in his training, when he is working on something specific. I guess for you, you are lucky Yip Man is dead, as there is no way for him to fight you to see what happens:p

I do agree that there is no magic formula's in Wing Chun, only hard work and lots of understanding of what you are doing is the key IMO.

James
dude i'm like 6 foot 5 no disrespect to the dead, but I'm not talking out of my ass

so there is a million ways to apply tan sao front kick to wing arm side stamping kick? lol...maybe ten realistic aplications you could get out of that, most of them would be variations...use the tan to gaurd and kick his groin...use the tan to his eyes and kick the groin lol...it's basic man...kaido be hitting from every angle tasmanian devil on crack style and then he drives right through the center.

chi sao is a game of chess not fighting drills...a game of testing chi and working your root...where's the real fight training?...you guys put on gloves and kick box, or you go old school and kill each other like romans.:)

[diego]

and lol at it's not fighting technique...ip chun demos direct application right after his father demos the form...got the book four feet from me.

[sihing]

dude i'm like 6 foot 5 no disrespect to the dead, but I'm not talking out of my ass

so there is a million ways to apply tan sao front kick to wing arm side stamping kick? lol...maybe ten realistic aplications you could get out of that, most of them would be variations...use the tan to gaurd and kick his groin...use the tan to his eyes and kick the groin lol...it's basic man...kaido be hitting from every angle tasmanian devil on crack style and then he drives right through the center.

chi sao is a game of chess not fighting drills...a game of testing chi and working your root...where's the real fight training?...you guys put on gloves and kick box, or you go old school and kill each other like romans.:)

I guess now I'm expected to come back with a bunch of Ya Butts:eek:. How about a little piece of advice, stop thinking in black and white photographs, this is the 21st century we have video cameras everywhere:)

Nice chattin wit ya

James

[diego]

I guess now I'm expected to come back with a bunch of Ya Butts:eek:.

James
well i'm talking about history...your ****ed off bullshido dissed your life...i'm defending your ancestors to the martial masses homie. pz

[sihing]

well i'm talking about history...your ****ed off bullshido dissed your life...i'm defending your ancestors to the martial masses homie. pz

I haven't even heard about the bullshido thing until it came up here, and I didn't take the lovely opportunity to look at what they were saying. For me, most everything said on internet forums I take with a grain of salt, so there is no emotion involved on my part friend.

IMO there is no need for defending anything, people are people and they will think what they like, that is the way of things dude. It's best to just appreciate what you got, help someone out if they need it, and spend time with people you enjoy hangin with, no need to take everything (especially WC and Martial Arts in general) so serious.

Happy training bro:)

James

[diego]

I haven't even heard about the bullshido thing until it came up here, and I didn't take the lovely opportunity to look at what they were saying. For me, most everything said on internet forums I take with a grain of salt, so there is no emotion involved on my part friend.

IMO there is no need for defending anything, people are people and they will think what they like, that is the way of things dude. It's best to just appreciate what you got, help someone out if they need it, and spend time with people you enjoy hangin with, no need to take everything (especially WC and Martial Arts in general) so serious.

Happy training bro:)

James

Cheers...I was actually born up in sue saint marie...moved out to vanouver when I was a month old...:) weather is pretty sunny right now, should be training at the beach in shorts in a couple of weeks...Is it cold in Ontario?.

[sihing]

Cheers...I was actually born up in sue saint marie...moved out to vanouver when I was a month old...:) weather is pretty sunny right now, should be training at the beach in shorts in a couple of weeks...Is it cold in Ontario?.


I've been thru the Sue a few times, but never as far out west as Vancouver. It's been a dam cold and long winter here, lots of snow too. I was just out in Calgary, it was much nicer there, and I hear the more west you go the better it gets..I'm missing the old west:D

James

[couch]

I'm missing the old west:D

James

Me too.

Best,
Kenton

[Edmund]

yeah, anyway it's not hard to size a dude up when you grew up fighting big people...you guys have some sort of magic that has never been shown on the internet, lol...i seen your masters and i seen mine...i know good gung fu basics. the masses hardly ever seen high level gung fu so what you are saying is not really relevant at all...especially when this all is coming from a fan...you guys sound like jerks. i'm not selling anything, show me the real if I'm so not knowing...

I didn't mention any sort of magic or high levels of kung fu.
But learning hop gar is not the same as learning WC. Nothing against hop gar.

And learning WC isn't done by reading and watching vids on the internet.
A fan is nice, but they can't argue about the details of doing WC from a particularly experienced perspective.

[diego]

I didn't mention any sort of magic or high levels of kung fu.
But learning hop gar is not the same as learning WC. Nothing against hop gar.

And learning WC isn't done by reading and watching vids on the internet.
A fan is nice, but they can't argue about the details of doing WC from a particularly experienced perspective.

you haven't seen the style i do, but i've seen yours...i think there is more room for me to have an opinion. I mentioned kaido did more than hop ga...kaido was a gangster, he got himself killed. He dissed everyone bruce lee, his peers in the systems he studied, the montreal martial art community...he was doing mixed martial arts in the 70's and he happened to teach some hop ga...:) He trained jail style, while everyone else were hobbyists. I'm not saying anything new, bullshido isn't saying anything new, bruce lee dissed hong kong in the 60's after he met american street fighters straight out the pen...bullshido types can't talk though, they don't have the discipline and the heart of a true school thai master. kaido's form is hop ga power generation...but his fighting combo's have many short range tactics cousin to your system:). I'm not stupid, lol.

I am aware though that not many have seen real disciplined gung fu.

[diego]

I've been thru the Sue a few times, but never as far out west as Vancouver. It's been a dam cold and long winter here, lots of snow too. I was just out in Calgary, it was much nicer there, and I hear the more west you go the better it gets..I'm missing the old west:D

James

You should check out Vancouver...at the right time you realize its technically not part of frozen Canada:). Up at our University of BC they got a nudie-party beach...should be warm enough to sun tan this spring break with the uni grads:) haha

I always run into peeps from Alberta and Mantioba at the beach...they look like they are at disneyland...this one native girl I met last year never even seen the ocean:eek:

Have a good one.

[Edmund]

you haven't seen the style i do, but i've seen yours...i think there is more room for me to have an opinion. I mentioned kaido did more than hop ga...kaido was a gangster, he got himself killed. He dissed everyone bruce lee, his peers in the systems he studied, the montreal martial art community...he was doing mixed martial arts in the 70's and he happened to teach some hop ga...:) He trained jail style, while everyone else were hobbyists. I'm not saying anything new, bullshido isn't saying anything new, bruce lee dissed hong kong in the 60's after he met american street fighters straight out the pen...bullshido types can't talk though, they don't have the discipline and the heart of a true school thai master. kaido's form is hop ga power generation...but his fighting combo's have many short range tactics cousin to your system:). I'm not stupid, lol.

I am aware though that not many have seen real disciplined gung fu.

Sorry diego, but seeing WC isn't doing WC.

You can make some statements as an *observer* but when people who actually practice the art try to tell you about it, you should listen a little.

[diego]

Sorry diego, but seeing WC isn't doing WC.

You can make some statements as an *observer* but when people who actually practice the art try to tell you about it, you should listen a little.
um, I'm only ignoring those that aren't really saying anything...some people agree with me in on this forum...then you have others saying I don't know what I'm talking about...one group of people are saying one thing, all I'm doing is giving my point of view on what we see.

all I said was i'd rather learn muay thai than wing chun as the fight skills come quicker in MT.

There are muay thai schools in vancouver, I'm happy trying to get good at kaidos gung fu which is very hard work.

honestly I think most don't know how to really master wing chun anyways as no one kills with knives any more unless you are some sort of third world gangster...I'm sure there is some really hardcore wing chun out there, haven't seen it though.

[Edmund]

um, I'm only ignoring those that aren't really saying anything...some people agree with me in on this forum...then you have others saying I don't know what I'm talking about...one group of people are saying one thing, all I'm doing is giving my point of view on what we see.

all I said was i'd rather learn muay thai than wing chun as the fight skills come quicker in MT.

There are muay thai schools in vancouver, I'm happy trying to get good at kaidos gung fu which is very hard work.

honestly I think most don't know how to really master wing chun anyways as no one kills with knives any more unless you are some sort of third world gangster...I'm sure there is some really hardcore wing chun out there, haven't seen it though.

So you're saying you've done no Muay Thai either...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/irishlew/FacePalm.gif

Why not BJJ? "Jiu jitsu is best fight in world my fren"

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is a really interesting thread. Mostly because you can get some really strange perspectives on the MA. I have been a practitioner of WC since about 1958. I have been a practitioner of Jap Jujitsu since about 1960. I consider WC to be one of the easiest skills to master with dedication and determination, and probably the one MA that anyone can learn well. I have played with other styles of MA and have found them to be mostly usless for myself and most people. Sometimes personal attititude and physical ability makes you better at something than other people, and this is what we see in the MMA fighting ring. Individuals that are skilled at one thing or another. I am very familiar with Thai Boxing. It was somewhat popular back in the late 50's through the 60's, and it seems to be making something of a comeback now. But then when you look at it, there is not a great deal of skill involved in this form of fighting. You can actually injure yourself while training or fighting. I know of people breaking feet and legs while delivering hard arm strikes and kicks. Any fighting form that can injure the practitioner as well as his opponent is not what I would call a good fighting form. It is completely possible to whip your own ass. I have never even heard of Kaigos or whatever you called it, but I suspect it is like most other physical forms of fighting. You will excell if you are 6' 5" tall, but if you stand 5' 4" you have a problem. I once tried Mantis style and found it to be the most difficult to apply of all the fighting forms. Just my physical structure probably, but It did not allow me to use power in my hands or feet. Just by looking at a book you will not see the virtues of WC. I think a lot of people that come on this forum are not speaking from real experience, but from what they have seen in some black and white page somewhere.
When you see these pictures and try to do what you see, like the vertical punch for instance, it is difficult to see where you would have any power in this punch. Well, if you simply punch you can't conjure up any power. It is a stationary form, but this does not mean you can not move your body and shift your hips and shoulders during this form. Just a little body movement and you can train your entire weight behind that punch. You can achieve as much speed in just a short vertical punch as you can with a long thrown punch. The fist will reach a certain speed and that is it. You can reach that speed in mere inches, and the long punch will usually come from outside the alignment of the rooted foot. Might seem like you are putting lots of power into a punch, but you really aren't. The vertical punch has your full body weight driven at blinding speed to a target. Real sparing with WC is difficult unless you have very good control over your weapons. It can injure your sparing partner very easily if you just go at it. This is why the wooden man. It can take a lot more mistreatment than a human body.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a really interesting thread. Mostly because you can get some really strange perspectives on the MA. I have been a practitioner of WC since about 1958. I have been a practitioner of Jap Jujitsu since about 1960. I consider WC to be one of the easiest skills to master with dedication and determination, and probably the one MA that anyone can learn well. I have played with other styles of MA and have found them to be mostly usless for myself and most people. Sometimes personal attititude and physical ability makes you better at something than other people, and this is what we see in the MMA fighting ring. Individuals that are skilled at one thing or another. I am very familiar with Thai Boxing. It was somewhat popular back in the late 50's through the 60's, and it seems to be making something of a comeback now. But then when you look at it, there is not a great deal of skill involved in this form of fighting. You can actually injure yourself while training or fighting. I know of people breaking feet and legs while delivering hard arm strikes and kicks. Any fighting form that can injure the practitioner as well as his opponent is not what I would call a good fighting form. It is completely possible to whip your own ass. I have never even heard of Kaigos or whatever you called it, but I suspect it is like most other physical forms of fighting. You will excell if you are 6' 5" tall, but if you stand 5' 4" you have a problem. I once tried Mantis style and found it to be the most difficult to apply of all the fighting forms. Just my physical structure probably, but It did not allow me to use power in my hands or feet. Just by looking at a book you will not see the virtues of WC. I think a lot of people that come on this forum are not speaking from real experience, but from what they have seen in some black and white page somewhere.
When you see these pictures and try to do what you see, like the vertical punch for instance, it is difficult to see where you would have any power in this punch. Well, if you simply punch you can't conjure up any power. It is a stationary form, but this does not mean you can not move your body and shift your hips and shoulders during this form. Just a little body movement and you can train your entire weight behind that punch. You can achieve as much speed in just a short vertical punch as you can with a long thrown punch. The fist will reach a certain speed and that is it. You can reach that speed in mere inches, and the long punch will usually come from outside the alignment of the rooted foot. Might seem like you are putting lots of power into a punch, but you really aren't. The vertical punch has your full body weight driven at blinding speed to a target. Real sparing with WC is difficult unless you have very good control over your weapons. It can injure your sparing partner very easily if you just go at it. This is why the wooden man. It can take a lot more mistreatment than a human body.

This post gives me a headache, for more reasons than I care to mention.

[couch]

You should check out Vancouver...at the right time you realize its technically not part of frozen Canada:). Up at our University of BC they got a nudie-party beach...should be warm enough to sun tan this spring break with the uni grads:) haha

I always run into peeps from Alberta and Mantioba at the beach...they look like they are at disneyland...this one native girl I met last year never even seen the ocean:eek:

Have a good one.

This reminds me of a quote from Dazed and Confused:

"I love these high school girls, man. I keep getting older...they stay the same age."

[diego]

So you're saying you've done no Muay Thai either...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/irishlew/FacePalm.gif

Why not BJJ? "Jiu jitsu is best fight in world my fren"

what does what I've done have anything to do with your peers suck, they get made fun of on the internet?...the style I learned is beyond gung fu...I'm allowed an opinion.

I would tell anyone interested in self defense to go the MMA route...I would tell any one who has been into martial arts that wing chun has some good close quarter knife work...

llmao at needing university credentials to voice one's opinion on the internet, you're hilarious...especially when you haven't seen what I know, but I've been looking at your system since 1995, I got the receipt in the book...never have I yearned to run to china town and learn it....I could learn wing chun tomorrow there is a school twenty minutes from me...a thai school up the street.

iin a real fight all you can use is basics, stomp him when he is down, thrust kick the groin and tap the head when he's standing...you are not going to sit there and chi sao trap a big guy he's going to take you down...wing chun has no wrestling skills until you get to the super secret 8'th set lol.........

[couch]

what does what I've done have anything to do with your peers suck, they get made fun of on the internet?...the style I learned is beyond gung fu...I'm allowed an opinion.

I would tell anyone interested in self defense to go the MMA route...I would tell any one who has been into martial arts that wing chun has some good close quarter knife work...

llmao at needing university credentials to voice one's opinion on the internet, you're hilarious...especially when you haven't seen what I know, but I've been looking at your system since 1995, I got the receipt in the book...never have I yearned to run to china town and learn it....I could learn wing chun tomorrow there is a school twenty minutes from me...a thai school up the street.

iin a real fight all you can use is basics, stomp him when he is down, thrust kick the groin and tap the head when he's standing...you are not going to sit there and chi sao trap a big guy he's going to take you down...wing chun has no wrestling skills until you get to the super secret 8'th set lol.........

I'm sorry you feel this way about Wing Chun. I think Wing Chun is great and that if someone was really dedicated to learning self-defense or how to fight, I'd recommend Wing Chun. Plus, I wouldn't just sit there and "Chi Sau trap a big guy." I'd be knocking on his block just the same. I think a lot of people on the outside looking in have the wrong idea about Wing Chun. It's unfortunate, but it's no different than me saying: Capoeira isn't useful or BJJ sucks because 100% of fights start standing up. Those are bad generalizations from an outsider who never trained long enough with someone I trust in those arts.

...and if I was that concerned with going to the ground, I'd learn some groundfighting. But with two kids, a wife and just me bringing in the dough for now...I don't have all the money and time in the world to go train that right now. It's all about priorities and I am VERY happy with my Wing Chun training. I know you're low-blowing us that "super secret" stuff...but there really aren't any secrets in Wing Chun, just proper understanding. Wing Chun is such a compact system of delivery, that there really isn't anything to hide!

Best,
Kenton

[diego]

This is a really interesting thread. Mostly because you can get some really strange perspectives on the MA. I have been a practitioner of WC since about 1958. I have been a practitioner of Jap Jujitsu since about 1960. I consider WC to be one of the easiest skills to master with dedication and determination, and probably the one MA that anyone can learn well. I have played with other styles of MA and have found them to be mostly usless for myself and most people. Sometimes personal attititude and physical ability makes you better at something than other people, and this is what we see in the MMA fighting ring. Individuals that are skilled at one thing or another. I am very familiar with Thai Boxing. It was somewhat popular back in the late 50's through the 60's, and it seems to be making something of a comeback now. But then when you look at it, there is not a great deal of skill involved in this form of fighting. You can actually injure yourself while training or fighting. I know of people breaking feet and legs while delivering hard arm strikes and kicks. Any fighting form that can injure the practitioner as well as his opponent is not what I would call a good fighting form. It is completely possible to whip your own ass. I have never even heard of Kaigos or whatever you called it, but I suspect it is like most other physical forms of fighting. You will excell if you are 6' 5" tall, but if you stand 5' 4" you have a problem. I once tried Mantis style and found it to be the most difficult to apply of all the fighting forms. Just my physical structure probably, but It did not allow me to use power in my hands or feet. Just by looking at a book you will not see the virtues of WC. I think a lot of people that come on this forum are not speaking from real experience, but from what they have seen in some black and white page somewhere.
When you see these pictures and try to do what you see, like the vertical punch for instance, it is difficult to see where you would have any power in this punch. Well, if you simply punch you can't conjure up any power. It is a stationary form, but this does not mean you can not move your body and shift your hips and shoulders during this form. Just a little body movement and you can train your entire weight behind that punch. You can achieve as much speed in just a short vertical punch as you can with a long thrown punch. The fist will reach a certain speed and that is it. You can reach that speed in mere inches, and the long punch will usually come from outside the alignment of the rooted foot. Might seem like you are putting lots of power into a punch, but you really aren't. The vertical punch has your full body weight driven at blinding speed to a target. Real sparing with WC is difficult unless you have very good control over your weapons. It can injure your sparing partner very easily if you just go at it. This is why the wooden man. It can take a lot more mistreatment than a human body.

kaido was 5 foot 5 150 pounds...for some reason big montreal bikers wanted to train with him...I see your point about some styles are no good for the average joe...a lot of it is .

I love how wing chun has a mystical chi only known by those who mastered it, yet the public hasn't seen any of these masters, yet the public has access to so much wing chun...is it impossible that I have good chi, know a bit about short and long power and have a good eye to size people up?.

[diego]

I'm sorry you feel this way about Wing Chun. I think Wing Chun is great and that if someone was really dedicated to learning self-defense or how to fight, I'd recommend Wing Chun. Plus, I wouldn't just sit there and "Chi Sau trap a big guy." I'd be knocking on his block just the same. I think a lot of people on the outside looking in have the wrong idea about Wing Chun. It's unfortunate, but it's no different than me saying: Capoeira isn't useful or BJJ sucks because 100% of fights start standing up. Those are bad generalizations from an outsider who never trained long enough with someone I trust in those arts.

...and if I was that concerned with going to the ground, I'd learn some groundfighting. But with two kids, a wife and just me bringing in the dough for now...I don't have all the money and time in the world to go train that right now. It's all about priorities and I am VERY happy with my Wing Chun training. I know you're low-blowing us that "super secret" stuff...but there really aren't any secrets in Wing Chun, just proper understanding. Wing Chun is such a compact system of delivery, that there really isn't anything to hide!

Best,
Kenton
capwera form was developed by people who couldn't use there hands...as a martial art for beginners indeed it does suck...for some one who knows how to fight you could get much from there physical condition and footwork:)

but I've only seen hip hop breakdancing there is no way I COULD SPEAK ON CAPWERA LOL.

BJJ sucks because they don't have iron wire kick boxing frame...the style I do sucks cuz it doesn't have ufc level ground game.

tkd sucks cuz they don't use there hands as well as there legs...karate sucks because they spend years being too tight...you'd be better off learning choy li fut than karate...

boxing is the best hand training out there cuz you learn to blitz your opponnent in one year...most boxers grew up getting punched in the head by their pops also, so they don't **** around focusing on chi....they all about making you feel chi.

But I have only studied with one man and only grew up with street fighters it's impossible for me to size up some dude standing short from hong kong.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE&feature=related

Look at the his frame and coil...the muscles pigeon toe down and you short power forward and up. From his stance training he doesn't have the shoulders to throw effective looping punches...Wong shun Leung studied western boxing and applied it to his theories, he's got more of a dragon back than Ip's sons. if you only do pigeon toe short training you will only get short power. i know you guys have long power with the dragon pole...but why doesn't Ip Chun have full dragon back?...lack of low gung fu footwork...twisting and spinning....whipping.

dragon back gives you fast looping hand combos and the feet play preps you for low grappling range...punch him in the nuts and foot sweep and mount...you guys don't do that.

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE&feature=related

Look at the his frame and coil...the muscles pigeon toe down and you short power forward and up. From his stance training he doesn't have the shoulders to throw effective looping punches...Wong shun Leung studied western boxing and applied it to his theories, he's got more of a dragon back than Ip's sons. if you only do pigeon toe short training you will only get short power. i know you guys have long power with the dragon pole...but why doesn't Ip Chun have full dragon back?...lack of low gung fu footwork...twisting and spinning....whipping.

dragon back gives you fast looping hand combos and the feet play preps you for low grappling range...punch him in the nuts and foot sweep and mount...you guys don't do that.

Yes, but my crane feet and monkey mind can defeat your Dragon back (at least that's what happened in the last Shaw Bro movie I saw:D).

Diego, for me WC is a delivery system. I may train strict straight punching, erect posture, pigeon toed stance, etc etc.. but that does not mean I am limited by it or that is all I have in my repertoire (basically the WC "training" teaches me more efficient and direct movement, plus a power generation and absorption system within my body that I wouldn't naturally have, and a way to aim my tools in the right direction so the arrow most always hits the mark). When I gain entry, my body is capable of accepting and giving out of force, plus it is sensitive to subtle changes in force coming in from my opponent. If the upper door is closed I can go low, if the lower door is closed I can go high. If the wrist is jammed I use my elbow, if the elbow is jammed I can use my shoulder or knee. It is all there, as a concept, a tool that I can use anyway I see fit, not as a "fixed" technique. The typical stereotype that WC is trapping hands, no movement, only short range fighting and power, moving like a robot, is so completely incorrect, as WC is nothing without the person that is using it. WC is a method of development, something I use like my car or computer, with me being the one that decides how I want to use it and set it up. If I fight, I am the one fighting, me James, not WC, nor is it my goal to express WC during the fight, rather the goal is to KO that person attacking me and getting out of it safe and sound. Training in WC, and understanding it only increases my odds of success. To many people, especially those on Youtube, are trying to "show" WC, instead of moving naturally, with the influence of a method they have trained in and understood.

James

[diego]

Yes, but my crane feet and monkey mind can defeat your Dragon back (at least that's what happened in the last Shaw Bro movie I saw:D).

Diego, for me WC is a delivery system. I may train strict straight punching, erect posture, pigeon toed stance, etc etc.. but that does not mean I am limited by it or that is all I have in my repertoire (basically the WC "training" teaches me more efficient and direct movement, plus a power generation and absorption system within my body that I wouldn't naturally have, and a way to aim my tools in the right direction so the arrow most always hits the mark). When I gain entry, my body is capable of accepting and giving out of force, plus it is sensitive to subtle changes in force coming in from my opponent. If the upper door is closed I can go low, if the lower door is closed I can go high. If the wrist is jammed I use my elbow, if the elbow is jammed I can use my shoulder or knee. It is all there, as a concept, a tool that I can use anyway I see fit, not as a "fixed" technique. The typical stereotype that WC is trapping hands, no movement, only short range fighting and power, moving like a robot, is so completely incorrect, as WC is nothing without the person that is using it. WC is a method of development, something I use like my car or computer, with me being the one that decides how I want to use it and set it up. If I fight, I am the one fighting, me James, not WC, nor is it my goal to express WC during the fight, rather the goal is to KO that person attacking me and getting out of it safe and sound. Training in WC, and understanding it only increases my odds of success. To many people, especially those on Youtube, are trying to "show" WC, instead of moving naturally, with the influence of a method they have trained in and understood.

James

:) This whole topic came up because I injured myself around xmas and spent the last two months watching you tube...I've been analyzing southern gung fu like crazy...even made a thread on the tai ping rebellion on the southern forum...linked some books and all that!.

I really like how Yip Man is always talking about ways to defeat the big southern styles...keeps me from staying in my little box thinking wow my hop ga fists are gangster. Plus I am a bit of a naturally born ***** and I love Gung Fu so I got no problem talking trash on garbage charlatans...others would say don't waste your time, focus on you...I beleive in reinarnation though so I'm not having any devils teahing me sin so they can party:cool:

man when I was 15 I thought paulie zink had good form lol...it wasn't until the last three years I really started figureing out what's what...who's who. I practised one form for ten years and played the basics, a couple years ago I got my stepdad to correct my basics, now I can do six forms pretty good....should be spot on by this summer when I got room to go to the beach and really flip it. I got solid gung fu basics and my whole existance has been a fight lol, so it's good...I have an idea of high level gung fu from Kaido, but I still have a beginners mind as I had to fight my stepdad to get him to show me what he knows...for seven years I practised the same thing...just played my horse and hop ha footwork.

I see these MASTERS with 100 forms knowledge in ten styles and i snicker.

I'm bigger than them, and I know some crackheads down in the res that would scare the hell out of them...and these boys been kickboxing the hell out of each other since they were born.

Some tough boys up in Canada, most of the yanks be flat landers;):D

[Edmund]

llmao at needing university credentials to voice one's opinion on the internet, you're hilarious...especially when you haven't seen what I know, but I've been looking at your system since 1995, I got the receipt in the book...never have I yearned to run to china town and learn it....I could learn wing chun tomorrow there is a school twenty minutes from me...a thai school up the street.


But you haven't done either.

So you don't have any credentials on either art. Let alone uni credentials.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...I think it's time for me to rescue my thread - if that's still possible.

So let me start with this: this thread is NOT about diego. He clearly only has an outsider's view of wing chun (and Muay Thai for that matter)...and he's clearly no authority whatsoever about wing chun, Yip man, Yip Chun, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Gary Lam, Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe - or anybody else in the wing chun world.

And furthermore, the opening post of this thread - wherein I quoted a number of posts that appeared on the kung forum thread that diego started - quoted a number of other people - and not just diego.

Keep that in mind. This thread is about much more than diego's assessment about wing chun. it also reflects what some other non-wing chun kung fu guys were saying and thinking.

And my first post was meant to prompt some discussion within the wing chun community...ie. - here.

So I’ll return to the beginning – and add some commentary and ask some questions:


"…if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."

"wing chun/ving tsun hardly moves the shoulders which does nothing for power..."

"….Whereas karate plays with all ranges of combat, wing chun deals with the range of refinement."

"And I don't think a style that can't produce fighters on its own could possibly be considered more refined than one that works right away. Either WC works or it doesn't...."

(followed by)...

"In theory I agree, but the reality is they spend a year doing Sil Lim Tao before they spar from what I've read. I haven't seen any Wing Chun fighters...Choy Li Fut walks through the horse and works on combos for the first year, it's a scrapping style...Wing Chun is a fighting art...the whole not really moving the shoulders when punching is useless for a beginner, to apply that against a powerful opponent you'd need years of sensitivity training."




***IS THIS A COMMENTARY on wing chun training methods?
A commentary on the short ranges and very subtle uses of energy - and how long it takes to develop that?
Lack of organized and ongoing wing chun sparring venues?
The close quarter specialization of the style being an inherent limitation because other fighting ranges are neglected or under-developed?
The fact that it has been plagued by so much secrecy, politics, and rice bowl protection?
Lack of enough sparring/tournament venue interaction with other styles (except perhaps for the Hong Kong of the 50’s)?
An inherent limitation within wing chun itself - even within the standing close quarter range?
Not enough kicking skills?
Not enough footwork?
Not enough time spent developing/knowledge of...power generation on the punches and kicks?
All of the above?
None of it?
Some of it?

...................................

And I'm sure that diego will respond to this post - and that's fine. But what I'm really looking to see at this point are people responding to this post for what it is: your assessment of the points raised - and not simply knee-jerk reactions to some of diego's ideas.

[Liddel]

Okay...I think it's time for me to rescue my thread - if that's still possible.

Lets hope Vic, Im sick of hearing how good he is at his form....anyone with fight experience talks directly about its effectiveness in a fight . Quintessential keyboard warrior by hjis own addmission. LOL



"…if a MT fighter studied WC/VT it would be very effective against someone else who just studied MT. Two champs both retire, one studies WC/VT and the other keeps on with the thai training...when they become old men this is where the chunners skills will come out...he knows all the tricks of the thai boxer so he uses his subtle lady like Gung Fu…"

This IMO has merit but on the whole is vague. Obviously anyone with an extra skill set over another has an advantage...MMA duh....
Its the training that makes the difference so if someone with ample sparring experience took up VT id think they'd be quite sucessful with it, find it useful.

I spar with MT guys and kickboxers (i see a difference), aside from the fact i do VT, i can emulate what they do but they cant emulate what i do - so i see my skill set being wider...the only difference would be where sparring was intorduced and of course it took me longer to get to the same level of sparring they are at.
But we both arrived at a similar destination all be it via different paths :rolleyes:



"you gotta know how to fight before you can fight with gung fu which is subtle..."

I certainly think this would help anyone who wanted to take up VT, knowing/having fighting skills will always lend itself to other fighting arts.

If i play badminton or squash im gunna pick up tennis quicker than if i just picked it up from scratch.

Having sparring more up front in TCMA learning curriculum would make this point moot IMO.



"wing chun/ving tsun hardly moves the shoulders which does nothing for power..."

For me personally i would replace "shoulders" with "waist". This is due to appearance. When most VT'es turn or step the body from waist to shoulders moves as one, they are not as independednt as other arts such as boxing.

However after one does realistic sparring as a main componnent of thier training (which any VT person can do) then you realise the only thing that is different is bending at the waist. Shoulders are very important in my VT the 3 main motors to my actions aside from horse etc are shoulder elbow and wrist.




"….Whereas karate plays with all ranges of combat, wing chun deals with the range of refinement."

Ive never agree with those that advocate VT only as a close range fighting art. I prefer to be close where i can controll better sure, but any action that wants to land on me has to enter my space, where its launched from is irrelevant as far as my ability to deal with it.

For those that believe it only to be able at close range i say what my Sifu says to me..your footwork aint good enough.
If someone says you VT has no power in the punches - i say not enough hitting the pads/ bag ! Its not rocket science :rolleyes:



"And I don't think a style that can't produce fighters on its own could possibly be considered more refined than one that works right away. Either WC works or it doesn't...."

I understand this POV and agree, modern VT should have sparring more prominent in its training, point taken.



"In theory I agree, but the reality is they spend a year doing Sil Lim Tao before they spar from what I've read. I haven't seen any Wing Chun fighters...Choy Li Fut walks through the horse and works on combos for the first year, it's a scrapping style...Wing Chun is a fighting art...the whole not really moving the shoulders when punching is useless for a beginner, to apply that against a powerful opponent you'd need years of sensitivity training."

I see training the punch without shoulders as important to emphasise the elbow and wrist (SLT = isolated), if you spar too early a student could miss the importance of the elbow and wrist use that VT utilises. You'd be trading one for the other. Balance is needed IMO.

Overall in the spirit of this thread i think there are some valid points put foward by this outside person, but i dont get the people that think everyone is ion this box.... nothing that is criticised cannot be altered, nothing that can be improved on.

I use the Kung Fu not the other way around. Experience in fighting is key to understand this. Not just internet vouyerism and forms .... ( yes you Diego )

LOL
DREW

[Edmund]

I am someone who learnt MT before WC.

I believe I agree with Lee Chiang Po, that WC is a MA that is easy to learn with a little determination.

The concept that WC 99% sucks really seems like an excuse for not living up to an unrealistic ideal: One where the WC guy barely moves, destroys his opponent and looks like a robot.

People like diego see video or photos out of books where it's just a demo or the WC guy is so much better than the demo partner. Then they think that's how WC is done.

The subtlety that is visibly shown in demos is SUBTLE. So when you go to use it in a real situation, it's not going to be visible and it's not going to flip the opponent onto his head and kill him. It may turn the tide in your favour slightly. i.e. you could manage to deflect strikes rather than take the full force of them and get them off-balance for a split second advantage.

WC's inherent limitations:
- I always say on here that WC people suck at kicking. But there's not a lot of kicking necessary in a real situation. MT and kickboxing exposes the lack of kicking because there's a ref pulling you apart and saying "Begin" over and over, giving you a chance to kick more. Once the distance is closed, it's really hard to open it up again on your own hence the emphasis on close quarters.

- Same goes for power generation, it's easier to throw a bigger strike and turn the body when you have space. In the contact position, *control* is more important to damaging your opponent than raw power. It's one of the important ideas in MT clinching as well. You opponent is going to use their bodyweight and hold you in position to prevent you from throwing with power.

- Subtle energies really shouldn't be so subtle. If it's too fancy, it's not going to work. WC uses principles and training methods to simplify things for the student, not make it harder to grok. It's a process of baby steps. Hence stuff like forms and exercises are simple. Rather than doing a fancy choreography that you won't be able to pull off in a real situation, WC uses simpler forms and exercises where you interact with a partner, emphasizing that you apply techniques in reaction to the opponent.




***IS THIS A COMMENTARY on wing chun training methods?
A commentary on the short ranges and very subtle uses of energy - and how long it takes to develop that?
Lack of organized and ongoing wing chun sparring venues?
The close quarter specialization of the style being an inherent limitation because other fighting ranges are neglected or under-developed?
The fact that it has been plagued by so much secrecy, politics, and rice bowl protection?
Lack of enough sparring/tournament venue interaction with other styles (except perhaps for the Hong Kong of the 50’s)?
An inherent limitation within wing chun itself - even within the standing close quarter range?
Not enough kicking skills?
Not enough footwork?
Not enough time spent developing/knowledge of...power generation on the punches and kicks?
All of the above?
None of it?
Some of it?

...................................

And I'm sure that diego will respond to this post - and that's fine. But what I'm really looking to see at this point are people responding to this post for what it is: your assessment of the points raised - and not simply knee-jerk reactions to some of diego's ideas.

[Vajramusti]

Any one can gave opinions often insufficiently informed opinions like Diego's quasi trolling in which I have zero interest. Now some comments FWIW-in a fraternal spirit.Dont care to argue
with flippant remarks by non wing chunners(Joy)

***IS THIS A COMMENTARY on wing chun training methods?
A commentary on the short ranges and very subtle uses of energy - and how long it takes to develop that?(Victor)

((If taught right and practiced frequently and properly could be in about 18 months. Also we should be self confident and both empirically and conceptually oriented and not look for outside approval. Of course the individual is an important variable and WC is not the only system and may not work for all. One shouldnt underestimate a person from some other style.))joy

-
Lack of organized and ongoing wing chun sparring venues?

((Organized venues- that's Victor's idea))joy


The close quarter specialization of the style being an inherent limitation because other fighting ranges are neglected or under-developed?

((here we go again -thinking of fixed ranges- when you learn how to fight you learn how to fight. Wing chun specializes on close quarters- many other styles neglect it. A wing chun person doesnt have to be dumb at a distance- you look for contact -))joy

The fact that it has been plagued by so much secrecy, politics, and rice bowl protection?

((A degree of secrecy - training secrets- is there in many competitive human activities. Cultish secrecy can be stifling.. but even in boxing D'Amato, Charlie Goldman, Angelo Dundee. Blackburn
and others all had things that they shared with their corner, not the other corner.Even in science- there are races to achievement between different POVs. The development of the atom bomb didnt take place in Times Square))joy


Lack of enough sparring/tournament venue interaction with other styles (except perhaps for the Hong Kong of the 50’s)?

((There were challenge matches that were not filmed. Even now folks figure out ways to test their stuff-but not everyone is interested in being on You Tube))


An inherent limitation within wing chun itself - even within the standing close quarter range?

((You dont stand still in a fight or in serious practice-gor sao, lat sao etc))


Not enough kicking skills?

((Some wing chun has plenty of kicking skills- in order to be ready for anything. But you shouldnt be reckless in kicking- you can be taken down or dumped on your head.))

Not enough footwork?

((Good grief-there is plenty of footwork and moving stances))


Not enough time spent developing/knowledge of...power generation on the punches and kicks?

(( many wing chunners dont even get the basic punch and kick right. Bad teaching and learning
is not uncommon in an art that spread too fast for its own good. So quality control is uneven))

All of the above?((No))

None of it?((No))

Some of it?((Depends- who. what when, where))

(Apologies in advance for key board errors- gotta go and do some wing chun)Joy

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nice replies so far, guys...

Keep it comin'.

[anerlich]

This whole topic came up because I injured myself around xmas and spent the last two months watching you tube

Was it a brain injury?

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing though, and as someone that has seen effective WC in the real world ( two of the bouncers I used to work with had WC as their core), why is it that the VAST majority of videos on youtube ( or google video), that show WC in a practical fighting enviroment either "suck" or don't look a think like WC at all?

Now, before I get reamed for the "look like WC" comment, the fact is, many system look the same in fightign as they do in training, that is not the case with the vast majority of clips we have seen.

It's a simple question, why do so many of the videos out there represent WC so badly?

[Vajramusti]

It's a simple question, why do so many of the videos out there represent WC so badly?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lots of real good wing chun folks are not on U Tube, by choice. And not on chat lists either. The medium is not always the message.

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

It's a simple question, why do so many of the videos out there represent WC so badly?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lots of real good wing chun folks are not on U Tube, by choice. And not on chat lists either. The medium is not always the message.

joy chaudhuri

I agree, Joy. I have quite a few e-mail contacts that don't post vids or visit the chats/forums for the same reason that drives most of us nuts!!! ...politics.

I also don't think this is just limited to us WC'ers, either. I've seem some pretty bad JKD & MT vids, too. Even (not to bring this topic back up) most capoeira looks like breakdancing. But it goes for all martial arts, there's the good and the bad.

Sometimes people believe: "He who shouts the loudest knows the least."

Best,
Kenton

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a simple question, why do so many of the videos out there represent WC so badly?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lots of real good wing chun folks are not on U Tube, by choice. And not on chat lists either. The medium is not always the message.

joy chaudhuri

I agree, and that goes for many systems, not just WC.
Nevertheless, while we see many incompetent displays of other systems on youtube and other places, we also see a god amount of excellent clips too, and outside of demos and "training" clips, we don't see much of that in regards to WC, actually of TCMA in general, though even TJMA are guilty of this too.

[Ultimatewingchun]

when it comes to the shortcomings within so much of the wing chun world.

As was also posted at the very beginning of this thread by some outsiders looking in: when done right wing chun is an "elite assasin level" fighting method - or something to that effect. I believe that's true - especially at very close quarters - but like Wong Shun Leung is famous for saying: "Wing Chun is a fine horse - but few can ride her."

And besides all the secrecy, politics, and rice bowl protection (ie.- how many wing chun "sifus" or "masters" are there out there who basically suck as fighters?)...

besides all that I think the training methods are the single biggest culprits to take into account when analyzing the system's shortcomings.

It really is a "concept-based" system....more so than most other martial arts...which is why, as sanjuro pointed out - so often it looks so different in actual fighting than what one sees in a demo or a vid supposedly meant to show sparring, or whatever.

For example - how many vids are there out there demoing forms or chi sao? Hundreds? Thousands? How many actually demoing wing chun fighting/sparring against a live, skilled, resisting opponent? Against one with good skills in other arts like boxing, for example? Or against a really good kickboxer, Thai boxer, or grappler?

It takes a great deal of work to make wing chun be effective against these other styles - precisely because it's a very high level fighting system - and a very unusual one since the emphasis is on fighting in such close quarters without allowing the fight to go to clinch or to the ground. That's quite feat to pull off when you think about it.

And a great deal of work to get the power generation on one's strikes that will truly be effective and damaging at such close quarters without much shoulder torgue going on (some - but as someone rightly pointed out - it's mainly from the waist that the power is being generated - along with the elbow and the relaxed-until-the-last-second energy/power dynamics (ie.- the use of "chi" in wing chun is not so mysterious at all compared to some other more esoteric approaches to the subject).

My conclusion: this seemingly "simple" and straight-forward art is not so simple after all - to make it really work well against other skilled fighters...it's in fact, a complex art.

And therefore training methods must go waaaay beyond what was once the "conventional" training methods, ie.- lots and lots of forms and chi sao - backed up by wooden dummy training and occasional gor sao sparring - and perhaps backed up also by the Butterfly Sword footwork and other sword-related concepts.

Too much emphasis on chi sao and forms can really be counter productive to one's overall fighting abilities...which is why I'm not the least bit shocked when I read things like "I'd rather study Thai Boxing or boxing because it's a quicker return on the investment - or because these things are a good foundation for someone wanting to learn wing chun, etc.

I suspect that for most people in the wing chun world the training methods are still too far behind the times and not enough time is being spent with more "modern" training methods (ie.- constant sparring, strengthening and conditioning, use of bags, mitts, shields, chest protectors, etc. - including going all out to develop kicking skills along the same lines).

[diego]

Was it a brain injury?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9wy4wq_lTbc

[diego]

And therefore training methods must go waaaay beyond what was once the "conventional" training methods, ie.- lots and lots of forms and chi sao - backed up by wooden dummy training and occasional gor sao sparring - and perhaps backed up also by the Butterfly Sword footwork and other sword-related concepts.

Too much emphasis on chi sao and forms can really be counter productive to one's overall fighting abilities...which is why I'm not the least bit shocked when I read things like "I'd rather study Thai Boxing or boxing because it's a quicker return on the investment - or because these things are a good foundation for someone wanting to learn wing chun, etc.


I'm of the impression that some styles are more cultural based while others more killing related. You hear about in the hop ga circles it was taught by fighting...the master taught the student a shaolin form for basics, and then he showed him the hop ga fighting principles and sent the student out in the streets to test the principles. Yip Man recomended this to Bruce, William, Hawkens and Wong....I'm guessing a lot of wing chun sucks so to speak, or whatever those bulshido *******s like to say,:) is because it became domesticated lost its ghettoe killing flavor. Yip Man was using Opium and he had cancer, it doesn't boggle my mind that he has some very artistic pupils out there.

I truely beleive most of the bull**** kung fu out there came from commies killing masters, opium use and rascism.

they taught whites ****, created a national wushu dance and I read about chen village was on the pipe during ww2 cuz they had no food...robert smith mentioned it in his martial musings book speaking to rose sun lu tangs friend.

all that lame tai chi moving frail and slow (props to Chen Fam) is wild opium based flavor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's a funny post - and probably based upon a big grain of truth somewhere.

[diego]

That's a funny post - and probably based upon a big grain of truth somewhere.

I'm a very humble individual but I don't hold my tongue:) Kaido was famous in the montreal club scene he liked his cocaine cowboys if you know what I mean...his form resembles a high level thai masters going off with his combos...there is a legend that kaido ended up in montreal because he taught in the american army and killed someone...they deported him or he fled or something...just something my stepdad heard. Point is dude trained hard and laughed at those who didn't...most philipinos I know love to laugh and so did he;)

no quasi-trolling here...I just had to go on the internet to realize what I got:)

[diego]

Was it a brain injury?

http://www.combatcentres.com/gallery/pdf/tech_art_001.pdf

this has major kajukenbo flavor, I like:)

[bakxierboxer]

http://www.combatcentres.com/gallery/pdf/tech_art_001.pdf

this has major kajukenbo flavor, I like:)

That site looks more like a martial arts marketing scheme..... and I didn't see anything in that pdf that looked particularly like Kajukenbo... which I have trained in and taught.

[diego]

That site looks more like a martial arts marketing scheme..... and I didn't see anything in that pdf that looked particularly like Kajukenbo... which I have trained in and taught.

knee to the chest and hammer the neck...signature Emperado:)

[kung fu fighter]

I personally think alot of the "real kung fu training and bio mechanics" in wing chun are lost that what makes the systemt so difficult to apply in real fighting without incorperating other styles to complement it.

[anerlich]

That site looks more like a martial arts marketing scheme

It's a website for a professional WC school - of course it's a marketing scheme - WTF were you expecting :p


which I have trained in and taught

Do you have a website/marketing scheme ... just so I can see how a purist would do it, you understand :rolleyes: ?

[KPM]

I personally think alot of the "real kung fu training and bio mechanics" in wing chun are lost that what makes the systemt so difficult to apply in real fighting without incorperating other styles to complement it.

But what are the "real biomechanics"? I think good biomechanics is just good biomechanics. Is it stable, mobile, and powerful? If not, then you are doing something wrong. Here are some examples I see of bad biomechanics that are present too often:

1. Standing with the feet parallel but the knees squeezed inward. This puts a strain on the knee joint that is not necessary.

2. Standing in the "Wing Chun slouch." This is where the hips are forward and the shoulders are back with the mid-back rounded. Not only is this poor posture, this is poor balance. You can topple over backwards.

3. Putting all of the weight on one leg when moving or pivoting. Not only does this affect mobility, it is poor balance as well. It also limits how well you can apply "forward pressure", and again makes you prone to falling over backwards.

4. Rolling the hips forward and "locking" them in place. This limits power expression and tends to encourage the "Wing Chun slouch." If the Kwa is kept "floating" and mobile, it acts as an "amplifier" when sending power from the legs to the arms.

5. Punching forward while at the same time pulling the shoulders and head backwards. This is like trying to run forward while someone is holding onto your belt and pulling you backwards. Its counter-productive.

No doubt some people will disagree with some of my examples. Which just goes to show that what is considered "good" or "real Wing Chun" biomechanics can vary. I don't think we've "lost" any Wing Chun "secrets." But I do think we've sometimes accepted as "gospel" in the realm of "sifu sez" what amounts to a poor way of doing things.

[couch]

I personally think alot of the "real kung fu training and bio mechanics" in wing chun are lost that what makes the systemt so difficult to apply in real fighting without incorperating other styles to complement it.

This and what Keith said...I agree.

Neo : "I know what you're trying to do."
Morpheus : "I'm trying to free your mind"

Siu Nim Tao teaches such basic and fundamental things: in this example, generation of power through a "power point" or the elbow. The elbow is connected to the hip, which is connected to the ground. That, plus gravity secures this position. Nothing more, nothing less.

How does a horizontal fist generate power? Is it really shoulder power? It still comes from the ground, but travels a little bit of a different path. The fist is connected through the elbow to the shoulder. By "leaning in" to the punch, in the fashion of "pushing a car," this connects this shoulder to the hip and then through the ground. Not to mention some hip torque, as well.

If we have thrown a horizontal fist thrown from YJKYM, then of course the power gets sent back into the shoulder and not the ground. So a different mechanic or body structure is needed to support this.

After SNT, we have CK showing (again with proper & BASIC alignment) shifting and stepping. I'm not posting this to summarize the WC system..there's plenty on that!!! :)

But after all that BASIC power generation has been ingrained in the brain, it's time to look outside the box. You can't fight like a WC robot. Boxing, for the most part, takes a "natural" fighting approach. It IS the sweet science, but it was developed from a "natural" approach to combat. Granted, it has changed over the years due to rules and gear. But WC (like lots of MA) takes a refined approach. Still very natural in the sense of covering the centreline (very natural in a self-defense situation, ie: Tony Blauer's research on where people get cut/shot - the hands & forearms), but it is a refined skill from the start.

So I guess where I'm going with all this is that after all that refinement, when it's go time, it needs to flow out of a person naturally. Not at any moment in time must a defender think that they must do something "some way." After all those basics have been trained for some time, it's time to embrace the natural way your body wants to move. After all, I think, Wing Chun is just an "engine." A conveyor belt I put my weapons into for some sort of refinement. A (to up the amount of quotes I have in my post) "Way of Expressing the Human Body." Just move!

Best,
Kenton

[bakxierboxer]

knee to the chest and hammer the neck...signature Emperado:)

Given that it's a WC marketing site.... and this is a WC forum..... which means we probably shouldn't discuss Kajukenbo here.

In any case, that link has now been "turned off".
Emperado style "signature" moves are usually "logical" and a knee to the chest would normally come AFTER your opponent had been bent forward.

[bakxierboxer]

It's a website for a professional WC school - of course it's a marketing scheme - WTF were you expecting :p

What the person who posted the link suggested.


Do you have a website/marketing scheme ... just so I can see how a purist would do it, you understand :rolleyes: ?

No, I do not.
If I did, it would certainly not be for something I make no claim to knowing.

[diego]

Given that it's a WC marketing site.... and this is a WC forum..... which means we probably shouldn't discuss Kajukenbo here.

In any case, that link has now been "turned off".
Emperado style "signature" moves are usually "logical" and a knee to the chest would normally come AFTER your opponent had been bent forward.

true:)..I have a Kajukenbo Hop Gar thread on the southern forum ,what branch of Kajukenbo are you an instructor in?.

[bakxierboxer]

true:)..I have a Kajukenbo Hop Gar thread on the southern forum ,what branch of Kajukenbo are you an instructor in?.

I'm not particularly interested in it.

"Old School" "Emperado Style" which I learned from John Leoning in the early 60s.
Leoning was the first to bring Kajukenbo to the Mainland.
The "Palama Sets" were still called "Pinyans".

I have not taught Kajukenbo at all since the 70s, and frankly "gave it up" for TCMA... WITH the full approval (even "encouragement") of Leoning, since he was in favor of anything at all that would give him "more access" to TCMA.
(having said that, "some of it" "sneaks out" "once in a great while")

[diego]

I'm not particularly interested in it.

"Old School" "Emperado Style" which I learned from John Leoning in the early 60s.
Leoning was the first to bring Kajukenbo to the Mainland.
The "Palama Sets" were still called "Pinyans".

I have not taught Kajukenbo at all since the 70s, and frankly "gave it up" for TCMA... WITH the full approval (even "encouragement") of Leoning, since he was in favor of anything at all that would give him "more access" to TCMA.
(having said that, "some of it" "sneaks out" "once in a great while")
You ever heard of a Alexander "Kaido" Polintain? He got 5'th degree black belt from Emperado in the early 70's...I'm guessing he trained around when you were...It's hard to find info on him as he was murdered and the guy he got his Hop Ga from was murdered, Ng Yim Ming.

Suppossedly kaido was going to start his own branch of kaju-hop ga but he didn't want to pay the fees...seems he had an attitude problem, told some guy he was a punk and the guy came back and shot him. ng Yim Ming was teaching triad street soldiers and something happenned within their fraternity and the bosses had him killed...

[Matrix]

You ever heard of a Alexander "Kaido" Polintain? He got 5'th degree black belt from Emperado in the early 70's...I'm guessing he trained around when you were...It's hard to find info on him as he was murdered and the guy he got his Hop Ga from was murdered, Ng Yim Ming... Kaido was pretty infamous in the Montreal martial arts scene back in the 70's. I remember hearing about him back in the day. I can't say for sure what was urban legend and what was fact. IMO, the story goes to show you that even if you think you're a great fighter, you will eventually run out of luck if you're always looking for trouble.

Peace,
Bill

[diego]

Kaido was pretty infamous in the Montreal martial arts scene back in the 70's. I remember hearing about him back in the day. I can't say for sure what was urban legend and what was fact. IMO, the story goes to show you that even if you think you're a great fighter, you will eventually run out of luck if you're always looking for trouble.

Peace,
Bill
Hey Matrix, in the kajukenbo hop ga thread I made on the southern forum kaido's son posts under the name Kaidokenbo...It would be cool if you could share some of the stories you heard:)

Peace,
James

[bakxierboxer]

You ever heard of a Alexander "Kaido" Polintain? ...

Never... at least not until you starting vomiting
(would "spewing" be "better"?) his name all over the place.
I've now heard 'way more about him than I ever wanted to hear.

There's a pretty good chance that you'd "do better" on that stuff on Martial Talk....
They actually have a Kajukenbo Forum.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So returning back to topic (and hoping that we can now ignore diego's attempts to take us somewhere else) - I'd like to revisit something I stated earlier:

"...how many vids are there out there demoing forms or chi sao? Hundreds? Thousands? How many actually demoing wing chun fighting/sparring against a live, skilled, resisting opponent? Against one with good skills in other arts like boxing, for example? Or against a really good kickboxer, Thai boxer, or grappler?

It takes a great deal of work to make wing chun be effective against these other styles - precisely because it's a very high level fighting system - and a very unusual one since the emphasis is on fighting in such close quarters without allowing the fight to go to clinch or to the ground. That's quite feat to pull off when you think about it."


***I don't know about the rest of you; but I for one am really getting tired of all the vids around here and on youtube that feature forms, drills, chi sao, chi sao-related drills that feature "spontaneity", weapons forms, demos, seminar intructionals, etc.

These things have their place...

BUT WHERE'S THE BEEF? :rolleyes:

Ten of such vids are worth one good match/sparring/fighting session that addresses the issues raised in the above quote.

Comments?

[kung fu fighter]

So returning back to topic (and hoping that we can now ignore diego's attempts to take us somewhere else) - I'd like to revisit something I stated earlier:

"...how many vids are there out there demoing forms or chi sao? Hundreds? Thousands? How many actually demoing wing chun fighting/sparring against a live, skilled, resisting opponent? Against one with good skills in other arts like boxing, for example? Or against a really good kickboxer, Thai boxer, or grappler?

It takes a great deal of work to make wing chun be effective against these other styles - precisely because it's a very high level fighting system - and a very unusual one since the emphasis is on fighting in such close quarters without allowing the fight to go to clinch or to the ground. That's quite feat to pull off when you think about it."


***I don't know about the rest of you; but I for one am really getting tired of all the vids around here and on youtube that feature forms, drills, chi sao, chi sao-related drills that feature "spontaneity", weapons forms, demos, seminar intructionals, etc.

These things have their place...

BUT WHERE'S THE BEEF? :rolleyes:

Ten of such vids are worth one good match/sparring/fighting session that addresses the issues raised in the above quote.

Comments?

Hey Vic!

I completely agree!

[k gledhill]

So returning back to topic (and hoping that we can now ignore diego's attempts to take us somewhere else) - I'd like to revisit something I stated earlier:

"...how many vids are there out there demoing forms or chi sao? Hundreds? Thousands? How many actually demoing wing chun fighting/sparring against a live, skilled, resisting opponent? Against one with good skills in other arts like boxing, for example? Or against a really good kickboxer, Thai boxer, or grappler?

It takes a great deal of work to make wing chun be effective against these other styles - precisely because it's a very high level fighting system - and a very unusual one since the emphasis is on fighting in such close quarters without allowing the fight to go to clinch or to the ground. That's quite feat to pull off when you think about it."


***I don't know about the rest of you; but I for one am really getting tired of all the vids around here and on youtube that feature forms, drills, chi sao, chi sao-related drills that feature "spontaneity", weapons forms, demos, seminar intructionals, etc.

These things have their place...

BUT WHERE'S THE BEEF? :rolleyes:

Ten of such vids are worth one good match/sparring/fighting session that addresses the issues raised in the above quote.

Comments?

Agreed , its beyond me to explain in words , maybe one day I will video some work outs I do with the guys .

[Ultimatewingchun]

Myself included.

I expected to have completed some new vids by now - since I posted back in late November that I should have some new ones done in January or February - but it hasn't materialized yet. (And against opponent's other than the guy I did some competitive sparring vids with and posted a few years ago). This time I hope to work against a few guys who train in other styles like kickboxing and Thai boxing, and possibly even sambo.

But it's been on hold for the time being.

Now I'm shooting hopefully for sometime in the spring.

[diego]

So returning back to topic (and hoping that we can now ignore diego's attempts to take us somewhere else) - I'd like to revisit something I stated earlier:

"...how many vids are there out there demoing forms or chi sao? Hundreds? Thousands? How many actually demoing wing chun fighting/sparring against a live, skilled, resisting opponent? Against one with good skills in other arts like boxing, for example? Or against a really good kickboxer, Thai boxer, or grappler?

It takes a great deal of work to make wing chun be effective against these other styles - precisely because it's a very high level fighting system - and a very unusual one since the emphasis is on fighting in such close quarters without allowing the fight to go to clinch or to the ground. That's quite feat to pull off when you think about it."


***I don't know about the rest of you; but I for one am really getting tired of all the vids around here and on youtube that feature forms, drills, chi sao, chi sao-related drills that feature "spontaneity", weapons forms, demos, seminar intructionals, etc.

These things have their place...

BUT WHERE'S THE BEEF? :rolleyes:

Ten of such vids are worth one good match/sparring/fighting session that addresses the issues raised in the above quote.

Comments?
YEAH YOU QUOTED ME...