Wan Kam Leung - Practical Wing Chun

[sihing]

I found this on a German Wing Chun forum, it's Wan Kam Leung's explainations on Wing Chun, I thought I would share it here as I found it very interesting. WKL I believe was one of WSL's first students. From what I understand his method is his own, with some other elements based on his training/fighting experience.

Enjoy:

"Wan Kam Leung Theory

Wing Chun Forms

When first starting out, the student is traditionally taught the Siu Num Tao (little idea) form. The initial obstacle that most beginners struggle with is the idea of performing the movements while staying very relaxed. Relaxed motion is a common component of soft internal chi development. Perhaps the most noticeable aspect of Wing Chun’s first form is that it is performed in a stationary standing posture. Once the stance is set up the student stands in that position until the form is completed.

This relaxed stationary posture allows the student to learn to sink into the ground, relaxing and yielding their energy to the ever-present force of gravity. In this way the student begins to develop a fundamental energy skill.


The first form is essentially an energy building form that can take up to an hour to perform correctly. After sufficiently learning Siu Num Tao the student then learns the Chum Kiu (searching for the bridge) form. Now the student learns to move their body from the root through correct legwork and postural expression.

The second form teaches the student the essentials of moving or placing energy in the four limbs as a dynamic expression of the energy root.


Third, the student is taught the Biu Gee (thrusting fingers) form which has a devastating effect on the opponent. The movements are done with relaxed focus, resulting in a deep expression of chi skill as the practitioner releases chi in a dramatic display of power.


The student then is traditionally taught the Wooden Dummy form (Muk Yan Jong). Here they learn to release their chi into the dummy.



A skilled practitioner can see the depth of energy expressed in both the sound and movement of the dummy while it is being worked. The dummy form is vital for proper body alignment, distancing and footwork. What the practitioner has learnt in the previous empty hand forms comes into play here where they will apply the techniques learnt in a random order within structured sections bringing their techniques to life.

Once the dummy is mastered the student learns the 2 filled hand forms. First the six and a half point pole (Luk Dim Boom Kwan) where they further polish their internal energy abilities by learning to both stick with and release energy through the pole into whatever they strike using the key motions of the pole form.

Finally the student is taught the eight-slash sword form (Bart Cham Dao). Here they learn to express energy through the short metal blade of the swords in the specific slashing sequences. Once the practitioner has mastered this form they are generally considered to have completed the entire system.


Wan Kam Leung’s Practical Wing Chun

Basic Principles

Simplicity

The less complex your techniques are, the higher the probability of them working. Straight-line force into the aggressor is the simplest method of attack; neutralising incoming attacks with simple scientific structure.

Directness

Work your attacks straight from wherever your hands or feet are to the target. The Wing Chun theory of directness is “shortest distance between two points is a straight line”.

Economy of Motion

There is too much wastage of force using large flowery movements. To economise movement and maximise energy output is crucial to good Wing Chun. Short, fast bursts of energy allow for effective fighting that is hard to defend.

Simultaneous Attack and Defence

Wing Chun utilises defending and attacking simultaneously. While one hand is neutralising the force the other is returning the force to the attacker. This is crucial to stay in harmony with the economy of motion theory.



Relaxation

Relaxation allows for greater speed. Tenseness promotes slow movement and reaction time. Relaxation allows for greater sensitivity, faster response and greater speed and power in attack.

The Use of Soft Force

Using softness allows you to feel your opponent’s intention and react to it with greater speed, force and precision.
teils teils würde ich sagen
Only softness will carry internal energy. People who are tense during chi sao (sticking hands) are easily neutralised and controlled by a more experienced Wing Chun practitioner using soft force.

Practicality

Wing Chun is designed to be practical in its approach to self-defence. Throwing a kick in a crowded space would not be practical. A short, straight, physical burst into your opponent would be much more effective. Use your kicking skills when your hands are busy dealing with multiple attacks. Using practical common sense in self-defence is essential for a Wing Chun fighter. One must adapt to the situation to overcome it.

Yin Yang

Defending is yin, attacking is yang. Yin and Yang cannot exist without each other. Like the yin/yang symbol the circle of force is continuous. As energy is thrown at you, you receive it in a yin fashion, drawing its force into your stance while returning it simultaneously in a yang fashion through a ferocious attack. Both attack and defence are a continuous interplay of yin and yang.

Synchronicity of Force

Soft force starts in the ground, powered by the stance, controlled by the waist and released through the extremities. The energy travels all the way up your body, leaving only emptiness behind. Your punch is launched with a wave of relaxation allowing your relaxed force to continue through the target.

Centre Line Theory

Centre Line Theory in Wing Chun places great emphasis on controlling the central line between you and your opponent. Most angles are referenced to this connecting line. It is the most efficient line to attack along as it offers superior positioning against your attacker. Endeavour to always take control of your opponent’s centre line.

WAN KAM LEUNG THEORY

Drills

Beware of overdone drills. Often, when two people perform Wing Chun drills, the position, the feeling, and the timing will interact in the wrong way. Both people will assume to be training correctly, however they really aren’t learning anything. The drills will turn into mechanical hand exercises that serve little purpose regarding “real” fighting skills.

Drills when conducted with complacency will merely feed the student’s ego by thinking their hands are getting pretty good, when in fact it’s no more than emancipated aerobics! With drills, we must feel what is happening first, and then change our structure to the best one to match the opponent's structure.

This part of the training is difficult to get without one-on-one practice with someone who has got the same training ethic. When you try to push them, pull them, disengage from them, turn your stance on them, how do they react? What do they change to?

After long hours of such practice your Wing Chun takes on a new form.

Important Notes

Practical Wing Chun is not about collecting techniques. The number of techniques if pretty much infinite, the only constraining factors are your imagination and the practicality that the situation affords.

Firstly the technique must respect the principles of Practical Wing Chun. It’s a principle or concept based system rather than a system of specific techniques. As long as something fits the principles (i.e. practical, highly effective, minimal effort, efficiency of movement etc.) it is Practical Wing Chun.

No one person has the complete Wing Chun, Wing Chun is constantly evolving, what works and fits the principles is ‘added’ what doesn’t work or doesn’t fit the principles is ‘modified’ or ‘removed’ from the system.

Wing Chun will be slightly different for different individuals, as their bodily make-up makes certain movements easy and certain movements more difficult (i.e. very small or very tall people, very large or very slight people, very flexibly or very inflexible people – all will have different strengths and weakness and different potentialities).


YouTube - Sifu Wan Kam Leung Europe Seminar
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ04tYtelHs

YouTube - Sifu Wan Kam Leung Practical Wing Chun
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s&feature=related"

James

[diego]

I found this on a German Wing Chun forum, it's Wan Kam Leung's explainations on Wing Chun, I thought I would share it here as I found it very interesting. WKL I believe was one of WSL's first students. From what I understand his method is his own, with some other elements based on his training/fighting experience.

Enjoy:

"Wan Kam Leung Theory

Wing Chun Forms

When first starting out, the student is traditionally taught the Siu Num Tao (little idea) form. The initial obstacle that most beginners struggle with is the idea of performing the movements while staying very relaxed. Relaxed motion is a common component of soft internal chi development. Perhaps the most noticeable aspect of Wing Chun’s first form is that it is performed in a stationary standing posture. Once the stance is set up the student stands in that position until the form is completed.

This relaxed stationary posture allows the student to learn to sink into the ground, relaxing and yielding their energy to the ever-present force of gravity. In this way the student begins to develop a fundamental energy skill.


The first form is essentially an energy building form that can take up to an hour to perform correctly. After sufficiently learning Siu Num Tao the student then learns the Chum Kiu (searching for the bridge) form. Now the student learns to move their body from the root through correct legwork and postural expression.

The second form teaches the student the essentials of moving or placing energy in the four limbs as a dynamic expression of the energy root.


Third, the student is taught the Biu Gee (thrusting fingers) form which has a devastating effect on the opponent. The movements are done with relaxed focus, resulting in a deep expression of chi skill as the practitioner releases chi in a dramatic display of power.


The student then is traditionally taught the Wooden Dummy form (Muk Yan Jong). Here they learn to release their chi into the dummy.



A skilled practitioner can see the depth of energy expressed in both the sound and movement of the dummy while it is being worked. The dummy form is vital for proper body alignment, distancing and footwork. What the practitioner has learnt in the previous empty hand forms comes into play here where they will apply the techniques learnt in a random order within structured sections bringing their techniques to life.

Once the dummy is mastered the student learns the 2 filled hand forms. First the six and a half point pole (Luk Dim Boom Kwan) where they further polish their internal energy abilities by learning to both stick with and release energy through the pole into whatever they strike using the key motions of the pole form.

Finally the student is taught the eight-slash sword form (Bart Cham Dao). Here they learn to express energy through the short metal blade of the swords in the specific slashing sequences. Once the practitioner has mastered this form they are generally considered to have completed the entire system.


Wan Kam Leung’s Practical Wing Chun

Basic Principles

Simplicity

The less complex your techniques are, the higher the probability of them working. Straight-line force into the aggressor is the simplest method of attack; neutralising incoming attacks with simple scientific structure.

Directness

Work your attacks straight from wherever your hands or feet are to the target. The Wing Chun theory of directness is “shortest distance between two points is a straight line”.

Economy of Motion

There is too much wastage of force using large flowery movements. To economise movement and maximise energy output is crucial to good Wing Chun. Short, fast bursts of energy allow for effective fighting that is hard to defend.

Simultaneous Attack and Defence

Wing Chun utilises defending and attacking simultaneously. While one hand is neutralising the force the other is returning the force to the attacker. This is crucial to stay in harmony with the economy of motion theory.



Relaxation

Relaxation allows for greater speed. Tenseness promotes slow movement and reaction time. Relaxation allows for greater sensitivity, faster response and greater speed and power in attack.

The Use of Soft Force

Using softness allows you to feel your opponent’s intention and react to it with greater speed, force and precision.
teils teils würde ich sagen
Only softness will carry internal energy. People who are tense during chi sao (sticking hands) are easily neutralised and controlled by a more experienced Wing Chun practitioner using soft force.

Practicality

Wing Chun is designed to be practical in its approach to self-defence. Throwing a kick in a crowded space would not be practical. A short, straight, physical burst into your opponent would be much more effective. Use your kicking skills when your hands are busy dealing with multiple attacks. Using practical common sense in self-defence is essential for a Wing Chun fighter. One must adapt to the situation to overcome it.

Yin Yang

Defending is yin, attacking is yang. Yin and Yang cannot exist without each other. Like the yin/yang symbol the circle of force is continuous. As energy is thrown at you, you receive it in a yin fashion, drawing its force into your stance while returning it simultaneously in a yang fashion through a ferocious attack. Both attack and defence are a continuous interplay of yin and yang.

Synchronicity of Force

Soft force starts in the ground, powered by the stance, controlled by the waist and released through the extremities. The energy travels all the way up your body, leaving only emptiness behind. Your punch is launched with a wave of relaxation allowing your relaxed force to continue through the target.

Centre Line Theory

Centre Line Theory in Wing Chun places great emphasis on controlling the central line between you and your opponent. Most angles are referenced to this connecting line. It is the most efficient line to attack along as it offers superior positioning against your attacker. Endeavour to always take control of your opponent’s centre line.

WAN KAM LEUNG THEORY

Drills

Beware of overdone drills. Often, when two people perform Wing Chun drills, the position, the feeling, and the timing will interact in the wrong way. Both people will assume to be training correctly, however they really aren’t learning anything. The drills will turn into mechanical hand exercises that serve little purpose regarding “real” fighting skills.

Drills when conducted with complacency will merely feed the student’s ego by thinking their hands are getting pretty good, when in fact it’s no more than emancipated aerobics! With drills, we must feel what is happening first, and then change our structure to the best one to match the opponent's structure.

This part of the training is difficult to get without one-on-one practice with someone who has got the same training ethic. When you try to push them, pull them, disengage from them, turn your stance on them, how do they react? What do they change to?

After long hours of such practice your Wing Chun takes on a new form.

Important Notes

Practical Wing Chun is not about collecting techniques. The number of techniques if pretty much infinite, the only constraining factors are your imagination and the practicality that the situation affords.

Firstly the technique must respect the principles of Practical Wing Chun. It’s a principle or concept based system rather than a system of specific techniques. As long as something fits the principles (i.e. practical, highly effective, minimal effort, efficiency of movement etc.) it is Practical Wing Chun.

No one person has the complete Wing Chun, Wing Chun is constantly evolving, what works and fits the principles is ‘added’ what doesn’t work or doesn’t fit the principles is ‘modified’ or ‘removed’ from the system.

Wing Chun will be slightly different for different individuals, as their bodily make-up makes certain movements easy and certain movements more difficult (i.e. very small or very tall people, very large or very slight people, very flexibly or very inflexible people – all will have different strengths and weakness and different potentialities).


YouTube - Sifu Wan Kam Leung Europe Seminar
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ04tYtelHs

YouTube - Sifu Wan Kam Leung Practical Wing Chun
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s&feature=related"

James

thanks for sharing, he looks like he knows how to use those knives good I'm gonna look for more clips:).

[sihing]

thanks for sharing, he looks like he knows how to use those knives good I'm gonna look for more clips:).

There's lots of WKL on youtube and his site I believe..

J

[Miss Moyinggerk]

This is from the english forum:

I am a Sifu under Master Wan Kam Leung, and I would be happy to give you at short explanation of the theories behind the 5 centrelines and punching in WKL Practical Wing Chun.

5 centre line theory:

Nr. 1: The first centreline is the median plane also known as the vertical plane or sagittal plane, that divides the body into right and left halves. This line has many purposes in Practical Wing Chun fx. to keep a frontal position as a base, but also to keep the elbow on this line as a base fx. in mai-jarn punch, wang-jeung, chuen-wuun, jam-sau, tan-sau, fook-sau ect.

Nr. 2: The second centreline runs through both your elbows in the horizontal (transverse) planes, which are parallel to the floor. It defines the height of the elbow in most defensive upper level arm positions fi. tan-sau, fook-sau, wu-sau, tiu-sau, jam-sau, gau-cha sau, hoi-hap ect. From this position your hand should be able to cover both mid- and upper level, without moving the elbow. The easiest way to absorb an oncoming force, is when the elbow is on this line and the arm is in an angle of 135 degrees,

Nr. 3: The third centreline is on the middle of your underarm, if you include your fist in your underarm definition. Put your ring finger on the middle knuckle and the thumb as far down the arm as possible, then the thumb reaches the third centreline. If you keep your elbow in a 135-degree ankle fx in bong-sau, this should be the area of your arm that crosses the first centreline. When your arm crosses the 1. centreline, it stops when the 1. centreline and the 3. centreline are aligned. Include this with the 135-degree angle on your arm, it is the strongest area of your arm, which at the same time gives you most opportunities for follow up.

Nr. 4: The forth centreline is the middle of the distance between you and your opponent, when he is in reach of your punch. Knowing this distance is extremely important for the perfect reach of both attack and defence.

Nr. 5: The fifth centreline is a vertical plane which pass through the body from side to side. This is the same line as defined in the frontal plane. Your body is most balanced and most stable when the ear, middle of your shoulder and hip are on the same straight vertical line, running through your centre of gravity. We focus a lot on proper posture fx straight back, no forward head, nor anterior or posterior pelvic tilt.


Practical Wing Chun Posture and the fifth centreline

Natural alignment occurs when the parts of the body are balanced and symmetrical around the line of gravity.

The right and left halves of the body are mirror images of each other and the body is balanced from the front to the back allowing the spine to display its natural curves.

The ankles, hips and shoulders are even and parallel to the floor. In natural alignment the line of gravity is considered to pass just anterior to the ankle. through the center of the hip and shoulder joints and through the external meatus of the ear. A students alignment may be assessed by comparing it to the straight vertical line of a plumb line. A plumb line follows the line of gravity and is made by tying a weight to a string that is suspended from the ceiling.

Natural alignment is a important consideration when training Practical Wing Chun.It is the position in which the spine is best equipped to deal with external stress and strain, so it is the strongest, safest and most mobile position when fighting. The ability to assume and maintain neutral alignment is an important neuromuscular skill that comes with repeated practice. It requires static and dynamic balance and coordination as well as muscular balance in all aspects of the training. Habitual postures also influence a students kinesthetic awareness, or their ability to know where their body is in space without looking. For example, many students stand with pelvic tilt, their head forward and chest collapsed.

Allowing students to observe their movements in a mirror or on video will help increase their awareness of correct and incorrect postures.


Punching Theory:

In Practical Wing Chun there are many different kinds of punching. We usually train 7 different punches on the wall back, but no hook. Our most common punch is the mai-jarn punch, where the elbow is kept on the centre line, so the arm covers the centre while punching and has the ability to slide in. The hand is kept at an angle, so you punch with the knockles and not the fingers. The angle of the underarm is kept pointing to the target, so the arm can only be stopped by pressure up, down or to the side.

In Practical Wing Chun you don’t hold back your shoulder when you attack or defend. Most of the power of the punch comes from the shoulder, just like boxing.

You have to be very relaxed in every movement, because all power you apply is generated effortlessly. In Practical Wing Chun you don’t straighten your arm when you punch. It is just like they do in Escrima - you hit to the point. Some people say, that you hold back power if you do not straighten the arm, but they do not understand the principles behind it. Here are 5 reasons why not to straighten the elbow in the punch.

1. If you straighten the arm, there is no angle for simultaneous attacks and defence, when your opponent attacks on the inside

2. If you straighten the arm, the recoil effect doesn’t go to the ground

3. If you straighten the arm, the elbow is exposed for joint manipulations

4. If you straighten the arm, you often hit on the wrong distance. There is therefore no power behind the punch

5. If you straighten the arm, you will have to change the angle of the elbow to defend (change tool)



The above-mentioned theory is the same as the theory behind the first form, and obviously there are many more details to this information, so if you want further explanation, please send me a mail or come visit me at my Practical Wing Chun school in Denmark.



Best regards,

Sifu Martin Brogaaard,
Wan Kam Leung Practical Wing Chun Denmark
Nygaardsvej 5, 2100 Copenhagen
DK Denmark

www.practicalwingchun.dk

[KPM]

He looks pretty good on video! :) The written portion is pretty typical Yip Man WCK. or at least should be.

[LoneTiger108]

I was fortunate enough to be asked along to WKL Sifus Seminar in London and was amazed to see so many practitioners attend. A great promotion by Garry & James imo.

He did explain many things relating to HIS SLT, and I think it's worth noting that he only ever made the claim that what he taught was his interpretation and he isn't to be seen as a WSL or Ip Man rep, so to speak.

A very humble gent and great character, again taken in by UK practitioners with the aid of an interpreter. One of the many things that sticks in my mind is his insistent angle of the arms in his WCK, being no more than 135 degrees.

I've yet to see any write up or follow up from his European Seminars held in the last few months...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was fortunate enough to be asked along to WKL Sifus Seminar in London and was amazed to see so many practitioners attend. A great promotion by Garry & James imo.

He did explain many things relating to HIS SLT, and I think it's worth noting that he only ever made the claim that what he taught was his interpretation and he isn't to be seen as a WSL or Ip Man rep, so to speak.

A very humble gent and great character, again taken in by UK practitioners with the aid of an interpreter. One of the many things that sticks in my mind is his insistent angle of the arms in his WCK, being no more than 135 degrees.

I've yet to see any write up or follow up from his European Seminars held in the last few months...

Don't know if this was the seminar in question:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/TruthMartialArts/index.php?showtopic=1853

[Ernie]

From Nick


A few points that WKL emphasised

1) WCK has 3 forms, SLT, CK and BJ. SLT is for when you are in close, CK is for when you are at a distance and BJ is when range changes quickly e.g. from long to close, or close to long.

2) The first thing you do when you start SLT is open the stance. Your feet should not be too turned in but should be nearer parallel. This is closer to the character two which the stance is named after. Your stance should be vertical and balanced. The knees should be bent and outside shoulder width. The bottom part should be rooted, the top part should be loose and flexible. If someone pushes your torso you should twist/bend with the force and not be stiff. You should not sit back in the stance like you are sitting down, nor should you arch your back by puishing your hips forward i.e. it should not be an s or a c shape. The pelvis should be tucked underneath. It should be like the eiffel tower and not the pisa tower.

3) After the stance there is the centreline idea. There are five centrelines. 1) is the one we all know and love (vertical plane), 2) is the horizontal line of your elbow when they are by your sides (i.e. the lowest point they can anatomically be) 3) is halfway up your forearm (i.e. the kiu sau or bridging point in contact), 4) is the box of space between your opponent and you when you stand opposite one another, 5) is your central axis that runs though the middle of your posture. This shoudl be vertical.

4) Then you do the punch which teaches you about the elbow. The elbow should stay as close to the centre in all the actions as much as possible. Even where the elbow is more out than normal e.g. bong sau, gum sau, gan sau etc the elbow should still be within the line of the body i.e. not outside the hip. The centre is the power position and will mean that your action e.g. tan sau will be supported by both legs and not just one. The person who dominates the centre will have the advantage.

5) The elbow should also stay on its lowest point throughout its range of motion: if the elbow comes up you will lose power, leverage, control of the centre and you are vulnerable to an arm lock. For similar reasons your arm should not go past 135 deg. i.e. it should not lock out when striking - either punch, palm or chop.

N.B. One of the reason WKLs form look different is because a) he keeps his elbow in tight during the actions (leading to the shoulder coming forward) and b) he doesnt like to fully extend them.

6) In terms of intercepting an incoming strike - your arms will be either 'in' as it comes towards you (i.e. by your sides, arms folded, scratching your head etc.) or out (i.e. pointing at someone), and they will be either high or low. The reason why there are different acions in SLT is because these different kind of situations require a different response. For example Gan sau is used when your arm is out and high and somthing comes in beneath it. But you cant use it when your arm is low and back. Here you use Chuen sau or threading arm (like a jum that goes forward)

7) A word that WKL kept using was Sung. This is to be soft withyor actions. WIng chun is a womans style and does not use force against force. You shoudl be soft but not collapsed. You should be able to recieve his force without getting pushed back. WKL did not step back when demoing and he did not shift away. Your turn should shift his line of attack, not move you away. If you turn like that (like some of the Gary Mckensie students) you will lose your balance if he comes in. You also lose control of his second attack line.

Cool there are three kinds of palm strikes - Jing jeung, wang jeung and dai jeung. Jing jeung is always done on the chest or above (lower and you damage the fingers), Dai jueng is always done low (e.g. to the groin). Wang Jeung has three levels - high middle and low. pak which uses the palm shuld be soft and should be use to slip/ward off. It is not stiff or a block.

9) there are many ways to do bong but not all are correct - bong should not raise it should not collpase or fold and it should not go down. It should spiral forward. When done properly it is very powerful and can knock you right back.

10) the seng sek scrapping action is no use against a grab when your hand is down...but you can use it if he grabs you when your hand is up. To break the grip when your hand is low either you dan sau down, or bring the elbow in with chuen sau (WKL prefers this to tan here) and then lap da.

That should keep you all going for the moment

----
a WKL guy

5 centre line theory:

Nr. 1: The first centreline is the median plane also known as the vertical plane or sagittal plane, that divides the body into right and left halves. This line has many purposes in Practical Wing Chun fx. to keep a frontal position as a base, but also to keep the elbow on this line as a base fx. in mai-jarn punch, wang-jeung, chuen-wuun, jam-sau, tan-sau, fook-sau ect.

Nr. 2: The second centreline runs through both your elbows in the horizontal (transverse) planes, which are parallel to the floor. It defines the height of the elbow in most defensive upper level arm positions fi. tan-sau, fook-sau, wu-sau, tiu-sau, jam-sau, gau-cha sau, hoi-hap ect. From this position your hand should be able to cover both mid- and upper level, without moving the elbow. The easiest way to absorb an oncoming force, is when the elbow is on this line and the arm is in an angle of 135 degrees,

Nr. 3: The third centreline is on the middle of your underarm, if you include your fist in your underarm definition. Put your ring finger on the middle knuckle and the thumb as far down the arm as possible, then the thumb reaches the third centreline. If you keep your elbow in a 135-degree ankle fx in bong-sau, this should be the area of your arm that crosses the first centreline. When your arm crosses the 1. centreline, it stops when the 1. centreline and the 3. centreline are aligned. Include this with the 135-degree angle on your arm, it is the strongest area of your arm, which at the same time gives you most opportunities for follow up.

Nr. 4: The forth centreline is the middle of the distance between you and your opponent, when he is in reach of your punch. Knowing this distance is extremely important for the perfect reach of both attack and defence.

Nr. 5: The fifth centreline is a vertical plane which pass through the body from side to side. This is the same line as defined in the frontal plane. Your body is most balanced and most stable when the ear, middle of your shoulder and hip are on the same straight vertical line, running through your centre of gravity. We focus a lot on proper posture fx straight back, no forward head, nor anterior or posterior pelvic tilt.


Practical Wing Chun Posture and the fifth centreline

Natural alignment occurs when the parts of the body are balanced and symmetrical around the line of gravity.

The right and left halves of the body are mirror images of each other and the body is balanced from the front to the back allowing the spine to display its natural curves.

The ankles, hips and shoulders are even and parallel to the floor. In natural alignment the line of gravity is considered to pass just anterior to the ankle. through the center of the hip and shoulder joints and through the external meatus of the ear. A students alignment may be assessed by comparing it to the straight vertical line of a plumb line. A plumb line follows the line of gravity and is made by tying a weight to a string that is suspended from the ceiling.

Natural alignment is a important consideration when training Practical Wing Chun.It is the position in which the spine is best equipped to deal with external stress and strain, so it is the strongest, safest and most mobile position when fighting. The ability to assume and maintain neutral alignment is an important neuromuscular skill that comes with repeated practice. It requires static and dynamic balance and coordination as well as muscular balance in all aspects of the training. Habitual postures also influence a students kinesthetic awareness, or their ability to know where their body is in space without looking. For example, many students stand with pelvic tilt, their head forward and chest collapsed.

Allowing students to observe their movements in a mirror or on video will help increase their awareness of correct and incorrect postures.


Punching Theory:

In Practical Wing Chun there are many different kinds of punching. We usually train 7 different punches on the wall back, but no hook. Our most common punch is the mai-jarn punch, where the elbow is kept on the centre line, so the arm covers the centre while punching and has the ability to slide in. The hand is kept at an angle, so you punch with the knockles and not the fingers. The angle of the underarm is kept pointing to the target, so the arm can only be stopped by pressure up, down or to the side.

In Practical Wing Chun you don’t hold back your shoulder when you attack or defend. Most of the power of the punch comes from the shoulder, just like boxing.

You have to be very relaxed in every movement, because all power you apply is generated effortlessly. In Practical Wing Chun you don’t straighten your arm when you punch. It is just like they do in Escrima - you hit to the point. Some people say, that you hold back power if you do not straighten the arm, but they do not understand the principles behind it. Here are 5 reasons why not to straighten the elbow in the punch.

[Dave P]

I attended a WKL seminar recently... I was very surprised about the big difference between the 'regular' WSL theory and WKL... Most theory of WKL is not WSL theory.... How come?


5 centrelines?

Isn't it hard enough to work on a single centreline?


The first form is essentially an energy building form that can take up to an hour to perform correctly.

Energy building??? For that you should better do running, swimming, cycling goa sau, sparring...You energy will build up faster.


The second form teaches the student the essentials of moving or placing energy in the four limbs as a dynamic expression of the energy root.

Energy again.... OK, agreed, but there's much more to say than that... complete fighting strategies, combining hips with elbow actions...etc...etc...


Third, the student is taught the Biu Gee (thrusting fingers) form which has a devastating effect on the opponent. The movements are done with relaxed focus, resulting in a deep expression of chi skill as the practitioner releases chi in a dramatic display of power.

WSL referred this form as Moon Pointing Fingers as an expression to the more well known saying: "Look beyond the pointing finger"
Devastatinbg effect...Chi skills.. dramatic display of power...?
Bui Jee is not a secret form containing supernatural techniques that make you irresistable...

[LoneTiger108]

Don't know if this was the seminar in question:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/TruthMartialArts/index.php?showtopic=1853

I was at the one in East London http://ukwingchun.com/news.htm

I heard feedback that it was a great event for UK WCK practitioners as many schools were present and trained together on the day. Actually, most were familiar with eacthother as the UK is only tiny, y'know! Some well known practitioners who I recognised were McKenzie, Sinclair, Potter, Van Thomas and they all brought along students for the experience.

Garrys met almost everybody in the family due to his excellent Cantonese and pleasant character. He first met Wang Sifu quite a while ago too in Hong Kong with my own gongfu bro Barry Lewis! Have a look at his gallery http://www.thewingchunschool.com/html/masters20.htm

I had only just about started WCK at that time I think!:o


I attended a WKL seminar recently... I was very surprised about the big difference between the 'regular' WSL theory and WKL... Most theory of WKL is not WSL theory.... How come?

Like I said Dave, he seems to teach HIS OWN interpretation and doesn't claim that he is anything special or hold any secrets at all! Just an honest, lifetimes research packaged for a small audience really, but his name is getting around and he is quite sought after for seminars outside of HK as he hits like a truck! Similar to Gary Lam Sifu?!

[KPM]

I attended a WKL seminar recently... I was very surprised about the big difference between the 'regular' WSL theory and WKL... Most theory of WKL is not WSL theory.... How come?

---WSL seems to have always been very "down to earth" and practical. WKL sounds as if he is trying to maintain that "practical" approach in his own way.


5 centrelines?

Isn't it hard enough to work on a single centreline?

---One is enough! :) But one of his "centerlines" is more about distancing, and another is more about vertical alignment of the stance. So not really "centerlines."


Energy building??? For that you should better do running, swimming, cycling goa sau, sparring...You energy will build up faster.

---I agree. To me, doing the SNT slowly is more about "mindfulness" training than energy building.



Energy again.... OK, agreed, but there's much more to say than that... complete fighting strategies, combining hips with elbow actions...etc...etc...

---Yep! There certainly is much more to talk about than what he mentioned!


WSL referred this form as Moon Pointing Fingers as an expression to the more well known saying: "Look beyond the pointing finger"
Devastatinbg effect...Chi skills.. dramatic display of power...?
Bui Jee is not a secret form containing supernatural techniques that make you irresistable...

---Yeah. This one seemed the most "off" to me as well. I thought we were all beyond promoting the Bui Jee form as some sort of super-secret, super-deadly advanced form.

---But I've got to give WKL props. In the videos he looked like he had good structure and power as well as the "directness" that WSL WCK is known for. I'd certainly go to a seminar with him if it was possible.

[Dave P]

---But I've got to give WKL props. In the videos he looked like he had good structure and power as well as the "directness" that WSL WCK is known for.

I do agree with you on that. I had the change to do some Chi Sau with him a couple of times. I could absolutely feel the influence of WSL. Directness, constantly seeking for a possibility to attack... Going forward... On the other hand there seemed to be gaps to be filled as fook sau retreats and passive situations were not used for attacking. Questioning him on that, did not gave me a satisfiyng answer.


WSL seems to have always been very "down to earth" and practical. WKL sounds as if he is trying to maintain that "practical" approach in his own way.

I was told he even did that while WSL was still alive... If you guys say his system is a unique system... being the Wan Kam Leung system... I agree and I have all respect for him doing that... but in that case, I think he should not reference to him during his teachings... There are to many contradictions to ALL other WSL students teachings...

Let me be clear on one thing... I do have respect for the man and it was an honour for me to be able to touch hands with him. He seems to have a very warm personality, but the contradictions to with what I have been taught of the WSL system in the last 12 years, are to high, and don'y fit the idea of the WSL system. His theory, interpretations of certain excercises and that Chi power thing....

[jooerduo]

Energy building??? For that you should better do running, swimming, cycling goa sau, sparring...You energy will build up faster.

---I agree. To me, doing the SNT slowly is more about "mindfulness" training than energy building.




it sounds like your definition of "energy" is different to his definition

why is it reported that it took yip man over 20 minutes to do his tan-sau sequences? does it take him too long to move a couple of milimetres or is there some other processes at work?


and what do you mean by "mindfulness"? if it serves a function then its good


why does tai chi people do their forms slowly?
I think the destination is pretty close if not the same

[guy b.]

Dave P, wing chun doesn't start and stop with wong shun leung. Wan Kam Leung was a WSL student, in fact he is the most senior of those. He has every right to call his wing chun whatever he likes and mention WSL as often as he sees fit. It is completely ridiculous for you to question what he does. It is laughable actually. This "wing chun police" tendency in western branches of so-called WSL wing chun has really gone too far. Wing chun needs to be allowed to grow and change as its practitioners see fit. You can't fossilise it in terms of WSL and expect it to remain alive.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Guy B.,

Very good last post. So much "if it doesn't look like WSL/feel like WSL, then it can't be any good" I wonder what the man himself would have made of WKL. I have a feeling that he would have supported his progressive take on WC/VT.

If WSL didn't support the evolution of a martial artist, then he must have hated his student Bruce!

[KPM]

Guy B. & Wu Wei Wu:

I completely agree with both of you. My own personal WCK shows the influence of 3 different WCK sources and therefore isn't exactly the same as any one of them. WSL himself said something along the lines of...."be Wing Chun's master, not its slave."

[Dave P]

Dave P, wing chun doesn't start and stop with wong shun leung. Wan Kam Leung was a WSL student, in fact he is the most senior of those. He has every right to call his wing chun whatever he likes and mention WSL as often as he sees fit. It is completely ridiculous for you to question what he does. It is laughable actually. This "wing chun police" tendency in western branches of so-called WSL wing chun has really gone too far. Wing chun needs to be allowed to grow and change as its practitioners see fit. You can't fossilise it in terms of WSL and expect it to remain alive.

Of course you have the right to think whatever you want....so do I... I never said anything like: "if it doesn't look like WSL/feel like WSL, then it can't be any good"
WKL was indeed one of the most senior students of WSL and has a good fighting reputation.

What surprised me during the seminar was the complete NON- WSL like thinking and explanation...Forms explanation, drills, Chi power etc. That is what I gave my opinion about...

Of course this man has the right to teach whatever he wants.

What dissapointed me were the major contradictions .That's not just my opinion. That's a proven fact... I don't feel I have to stay polite not expressing me about this.

You can call that ridiculous or even laughable. You also can talk about "wing chun police" nonsense... So that's your opinion... I feel I have the right to express this here and I disagree with being tolerant to all new ideas....some ideas or 'modifications' simply don't feel good (I won't say that they are not good, as this is again my opinion.)

Being Wing Chun's master and not it's slave indeed points to your own ability to think and adjust the system to you own personal needs. After being able to really apply the basics of the system....This quote is often explained during the training of Bui Jee...

WSL did not hate Bruce, :cool:but he did dissaprove how he had made 'modifications' to the system. Read this article (http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=60) by WSL himself.

[guy b.]

What surprised me during the seminar was the complete NON- WSL like thinking and explanation...Forms explanation, drills, Chi power etc. That is what I gave my opinion about...

And? What does that have to do with whether his wing chun works or not? And how would you know..you only chi sau'd briefly with him. You may not like what he's done with his wing chun, but to suggest he removes references to WSL from his seminars is indeed laughable. There is no "WSL wing chun" because, sadly, WSL is no longer with us. We only have our own personal interpretations of what other people try to teach us, WSL being one of those departed teachers. Perhaps WKL didn't agree with some of the WSL dogma and that is his reason behind the changes he made..again so what?


Being Wing Chun's master and not it's slave indeed points to your own ability to think and adjust the system to you own personal needs. After being able to really apply the basics of the system....This quote is often explained during the training of Bui Jee...

Are you honestly suggesting that WKL never really reached the point of being able to apply the basics of wing chun? Not only is this a return to laughable/ridiculous territory, it is also a painfully arrogant and bigoted thing for you to say on a public forum.

[Dave P]

And? What does that have to do with whether his wing chun works or not? And how would you know..you only chi sau'd briefly with him. You may not like what he's done with his wing chun, but to suggest he removes references to WSL from his seminars is indeed laughable. There is no "WSL wing chun" because, sadly, WSL is no longer with us. We only have our own personal interpretations of what other people try to teach us, WSL being one of those departed teachers. Perhaps WKL didn't agree with some of the WSL dogma and that is his reason behind the changes he made..again so what?

Are you honestly suggesting that WKL never really reached the point of being able to apply the basics of wing chun? Not only is this a return to laughable/ridiculous territory, it is also a painfully arrogant and bigoted thing for you to say on a public forum.

Somehow, you don't seem to be able to nuance your answers, using words as laughable, ridiculous and arrogant.... while you don't know a thing about me or whatever I do... You fill in answers on your own questions thinking to be able to know what I think... I'm not suggesting anything...

OK, I give you a point on the reference issue which I explained wrongly. I read back what I wrote (and made a small edit afterwards) and this didn't reflect my meaning properly. Sorry, English is not my native language...What I meant to say is that certain explanations should not be referred to WSL as this is not his interpretation.

I tried to clarify my opinion, which you may not agree with... I have nothing to add on this since my previous posts... I agree with you on there being a WSL sytem and a WKL system... In my opinion, two totally different systems...

[KPM]

I can see what Dave P is saying. No need to take him to task for it. Guys like Gary Lam and Dave Petersen seem to stay pretty true to WSL's original teachings. So it would be noteworthy and surprising to encounter someone considered to be one of WSL's top students that did not. I, for one, appreciate that feedback.

[Ernie]

I can see what Dave P is saying. No need to take him to task for it. Guys like Gary Lam and Dave Petersen seem to stay pretty true to WSL's original teachings. So it would be noteworthy and surprising to encounter someone considered to be one of WSL's top students that did not. I, for one, appreciate that feedback.

David is probably one of the most ''true'' with out adding his own views
I have compared may of Davids Seminars over the past 10 years to my WSL material and David is spot on .

Gary on the other hand has added many of his own idea's and influences from Hawkins so i would say it's more GLWC then WSLVT
Gary is much more power based and natural in his personal expression but he is built up from the base WSLVT engine at the core .

I see the same WSLVT engine in WKL as well but like Gary he has gone off in his own direction ...

most people will find what best suits them or what interest them and refine that portion .
as a student you need to separate ''personal expression '' from functional mechanics and training methods ''

in other words don't get caught up by the show and try and copy that ,, study the foundation ....

WSL left a very clear blue print to that foundation ,,, Purest do not like that foundation to be messed with

to each there own :cool:

[Dave P]

WSL left a very clear blue print to that foundation

And that blue print was absolutely there as I mentioned with saying this in a previous post


I had the change to do some Chi Sau with him a couple of times. I could absolutely feel the influence of WSL. Directness, constantly seeking for a possibility to attack... Going forward...

[Wai Paan Long]

Let's not forget that it is very difficult to get the right impression of some one's knowledge when you sit in an audience, during a seminar in my school and touch hands with WKL only for a few seconds.

I myself have trained and taught for many years, probably every day of the week (maybe not X-mas ;) ) and have been during these years on a constant search for more improvement so I can give my students only the best instruction. I have had quite a bit of training in several Wing Chun styles, but I have not been ever so impressed as by my Sifu Wan Kam Leung.

I am gratefull for the many hours I have trained under him and for all the hours to come.

Having said that, the way I teach will off-course be different from him since we are two different characters. For example my students like to spar and fight tournaments, I will have to adjust to that little aspect as well ;)

Just my little adding to this discussion.

Train hard and fair.

www.iucta.nl

[Dave P]

Let's not forget that it is very difficult to get the right impression of some one's knowledge when you sit in an audience, during a seminar in my school and touch hands with WKL only for a few seconds.


Anyhow, I consider myself quite capable on having some impression on some of it. I haven't been sleeping for four hours... Again, I really I like to make clear that I am not offending the man... I have a great deal of respect for him...He was a very kind personality. I only disagree with his interpretations...So there is no need to make an 'under water' statement on my observation capacity during the seminar.

I'm very happy for you that you now have finally found your way in Wing Chun. At the end, only a person knows what's best for him.

[Liddel]

Anyhow, I consider myself quite capable on having some impression on some of it.

Dont worry Dave, ive been following the thread and i get where your comming from...im of a similar opinion.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM&feature=related

Its easy to tell there are big differences...... and its easy to see some of his students took your call about differences as meaning 'inferior' for lack of a better word, which i know is not what your saying.

Thats on them bro.
Prowst :cool:

DREW

[Wai Paan Long]

Hey Dave, I didn't mean it condecending, I just think it is difficult to understand the full capacity of somebody after a seminar. I am sure I haven't brushed more then the surface when I touched hands with Phillip and I was really impressed with him as a person and as a WC practicioner. Same goes for my good friend David Peterson.
In my opinion the way I have seen the WSL methode being trained and taught it is just to limited, again just my own humble opinion ;)

[Ernie]

n.
In my opinion the way I have seen the WSL methode being trained and taught it is just to limited, again just my own humble opinion ;)

there are plenty of people '' over complicating WSLVT '' out there so i'm sure there is no need to worry about things being limited

IMHO;)

[Wai Paan Long]

:) I stand corrected!

www.iucta.nl

[LoneTiger108]

In my opinion the way I have seen the WSL methode being trained and taught it is just to limited, again just my own humble opinion ;)

Woah! Someone has actually 'said' it! First time I've read something like this about WSL on here.

I would like to add that 'everybodies' Wing Chun will be limited! Nothing really new there imho. Whilst we all love to hold on to dear memories of our times with our teachers, it requires a special mind to accept the fact that our predecessors may not have actually been right 100% of the time. If they were, they just wouldn't be human.

My point is this, additions to and the removal of concepts of Wing Chun is a daring challenge. Ip Man pretty well had it covered, but he never intended for everyone to 'look & feel' like him, and I doubt this was Wong Sifus message either. I've always been a promoter of Lee Shing, and trained under one of his closest students for a time yet I look little like either of them. Form are mere images of where we take the knowledge imo.

WKL obviously has honed his way to be 'practical' for 'himself', he is an ageing Martial Artist and his adjustments seem to reflect this.

[Ali. R]

:(

Everyone has a right to say whatever he or she wants, even if it makes them look kind of off… We as people have to understand the seasons; meaning that you don’t plant a seed in the middle of December, there is a time of season for that to happen…

As one may respect the other, those abroad should not be forgotten, for there is a time and place for such things… Just always remember the season… :(


Ali Rahim.

[Ernie]

Woah! Someone has actually 'said' it! First time I've read something like this about WSL on here.
s.

Spencer
no disrespect but you really have no leg to stand on is this situation
your training closer resembles Chinese opera then boxing
much of the traditional fluff performance motions have very little to do with actual fighting
don't even get me started on the flags and rings LOL

not being rude ,,just being real:cool:

[LoneTiger108]

...your training closer resembles Chinese opera then boxing much of the traditional fluff performance motions have very little to do with actual fighting...

Each to their own Ernie. Didn't expect such comments from you but hey!? Something must've rocked your boat. I appologise.

I was talking of individual interpretation of Ip Mans teachings, something which WSL was very well known for (HIS own interpretation). Let's just say that Wing Chun Boxing has a different purpose than Wing Chun Operatics, but should contain the same basic elements and principles, right? Ip Man didn't just teach people how to fight did he? Maybe according to you Lee Shing must've skipped that session :eek:

The flags and rings are unique to Jun Mo (Man Sifu) and form the basis of all our weaponry training. This type of understanding is only laughable if you have never experiencd it first-hand, which I presume is why you're so dismissive of it.

Maybe your 'real' just isn't the same 'real' as mine. You know what they say, it's all in the interpretation! I personally, wouldn't dismiss the practicality of a family just because of a few lil clips on Youtube. It's llike me saying that WSL BJ is wrong because it isn't the same as Lee Shings. How stupid! :eek:

I hope we can get past these little obstacles, as I'm only here to learn more and share information on the Lee Shing family. I'm in no way the families 'defender'! Am I to be criticized for being academic too and learning cantonese?

[Ernie]

it's very simple

either the training methods develop functional body mechanics or they don't

could careless what lee shing bee shing ,,bee sting ,, wong shun wang leung blah blah ..

when you have spent a good amount of time fighting/sparring and training with people that also do the same ,, you develop a functional understanding of what is combat oriented and what is not [ unless you have put in this time you really are just guessing ]

and with a fair amount of full contact weapons fighting under my belt i can say the same about weapons

... so sir as i have stated in being an honest observer of what you put out ,,,

the training methods you seem to enjoy are more traditional then realistic
and there is nothing wrong with that ,,

you just should not confuse the to this is hazardous to one health ;)


so know need to get into a word spinning contest or history lesson about what other people could have done or been ,,, [ fantasy fu and meaningless]

just talking about what you put out on your site viewed through my personal criteria on what is a dance and what is functional

different strokes for different folks

and had you spent the time you wasted on learning chinese in actual fighting and getting around outside of your bubble ,,, you would have a different take on what is functional

IMHO Ok maybe not so humble :D

[Ernie]

PS
Spencer

I have no personal issue with at all ,, i just don't think you have earned the right to comment on the ''combative effectiveness '' of VT

since by your own account you never trained in that fashion

if this was a discussion on history or doing a group demo or stuff like that i would put much weight in your views ,,,, but this is not

[LoneTiger108]

... so sir as i have stated in being an honest observer of what you put out ,,,

the training methods you seem to enjoy are more traditional then realistic
and there is nothing wrong with that ,,

... just talking about what you put out on your site viewed through my personal criteria on what is a dance and what is functional

I appreciate the honesty Ernie, but what clips are you talking about? I've only put out one of ours, which is pretty hard to judge imo as it contains so little!

I've heard this 'traditional' vs 'realistic' argument before and imo without traditional there is no realistic.


...i just don't think you have earned the right to comment on the ''combative effectiveness '' of VT since by your own account you never trained in that fashion

if this was a discussion on history or doing a group demo or stuff like that i would put much weight in your views ,,,, but this is not

You're 100% correct if you mean I haven't trained in the WSL mindset, and that I never trained as a 'fighter' (much to Sifus pleasure I might add!) This doesn't mean that I dismiss fighting or have done no research on my own. As to 'earning the right'?? C'mon! This is a public forum. Swings n roundabouts y'know? I was trying to show support for WSL & WKL by posting what I did!

What concerns me is that you have such a disregard for the actual language of the style ( a familiar trait of others who post here with half your experience!) No wonder so many can't stand a traditional chinese approach, as without the language all you have are fragmented translations of what people 'remember'. That, I'm afraid is NOT traditional. The language itself is tradition imo and worth looking into, not for general conversation in a restaurant, but for your own understanding of what Wing Chun 'can be' outside of your personal fighting bubble.

On the demonstration note, how would a WSL student 'train' to demonstrate efficiency with the pole?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . and had you spent the time you wasted on learning chinese in actual fighting . . . .

Lol, I was learning Chinese and fighting during the same period. I don't think any knowledge gained is a waste.

[couch]

Phil,

Just to chime in, I think it was just a dig. But the funny part is that when Ernie is trying to make a point with someone else, he seems to bring something up in your personal experience.

Then you two agree to disagree, probably because you both can bang with your WC.

Just wanted to say, with popcorn in hand, you guys are comical and make for a good read. :cool:

Best,
Kenton

[LoneTiger108]

Just wanted to say, with popcorn in hand, you guys are comical and make for a good read. :cool:

Thanks Kenton (I think!) It's nice to know I'm entertaining someone! :D

What else can I do? I was recently made unemployed (again!) and have more time to type s**t inbetween some 'dance' therapy of the WCK kind! :confused:

Each to their own, as I've always said. I can only hope this stuff isn't misread as me not wanting to learn. I hold a lot of respect for all of you here and must admit that I do take myself too seriously sometimes. As do so many.

I wouldn't be building my own little training space in the garden if I didn't, as I do like to share and want a place to invite people to do the same! ;)

Maybe one day we will all understand eachother.

[LoneTiger108]

I was learning Chinese and fighting during the same period. I don't think any knowledge gained is a waste.

I'm sure my Sifus new generations feel the same Phil. And I reckon they don't think he's dancing when they touch hands either.
http://www.junmo.co.uk/gallery/martial_arts/myalbum/030406_(9).jpg

[Ernie]

You're 100% correct if you mean I haven't trained in the WSL mindset, and that I never trained as a 'fighter' (much to Sifus pleasure I might add!)


nuff said and thank you for being honest !

that is respectable ;)



Kenton


I just like Phil ;) dude is salty old school

but I do know the diffence between being ' enamoured ' by a culture

and development of functional skill

nobody is perfect so I can accept Phil is into some of that shaw brothers stuff ;)

I would rather spend my time in the study of modern sport science and the latest training methods but that's just me .....
I gave my ninja suit away once I discovered girls LOL

all luv man ;)

[LoneTiger108]

nuff said and thank you for being honest !

that is respectable ;)

I gave my ninja suit away once I discovered girls LOL

So we do have more in common than you think! My glad rags are gathering dust as I couldn't give them away!

Did the little kiddies follow as they did for me? :eek:

[couch]

What else can I do? I was recently made unemployed (again!) and have more time to type s**t inbetween some 'dance' therapy of the WCK kind! :confused:


On a side note, I am sorry about your situation. Sometimes it's a blessing in disguise. At least it gives you an excuse to do more dancing. LOL

Plus, this might be a great opportunity to look at other options for employment!

[LoneTiger108]

Plus, this might be a great opportunity to look at other options for employment!

Maybe :rolleyes: I'm quite un-employable I reckon! Can't stand the office or whatever it has to be. Too much time away from training and family!

I don't have the pull to travel the world doing seminars on stick dances nobody can relate to, so I'll have to settle for my garden.

Being without the family to train with has also left me weak and fruitless imo. I can pratt about all day on my own, but nothing compares to training in teams. Coaching numbers. I miss that.

Out of respect for everyone, I'll go moan on another thread!

[guy b.]

Lol Ernie, WSL being criticised from the opposite (less hardcore) direction here. The way you look at Spencer for example is how people like the die hard WSLVT "believers" look to me. It's a matter of perspective. You have to be able to shift the belief and approach it in an empirical way


it's very simple

either the training methods develop functional body mechanics or they don't


How would you TEST this, in a reliable, repeatable way which would give you info that would enable you to tell one wing chun variant (eg Spencer's) from another (eg yours)? If that's a bit of a stretch imagine someone a bit closer functionally but different ideas.

[Liddel]

How would you TEST this

Anyone learning a MA for self defence or competitive combat, tests it by doing just that. By Defending oneself and competing in fighting.

Anything else is just a dance. VT forms included :eek:.

Get someone to throw a punch at either mans head. The results will be easy to see :rolleyes:


I've heard this 'traditional' vs 'realistic' argument before and imo without traditional there is no realistic

Depends what type of Traditional one is refering to -

Traditional in the 50's when my Sifu was learning Spencer meant realistic full contact training combined with going out and fighting, which he did with WSL often.
Nowadays the word traditional has taken on a different meaning, and IMHO its not for the better......its more about people knowing rather than doing.


Ip Man didn't just teach people how to fight did he?

Most really old school teachers were kung fu practitioners, chinesse medicine doctors, and caligraphy artists.

So no. But the Kung Fu he taught from what im told was for fighting.
Those that wanted it for such were sent out to do just that by him, my sifu included.

Although not all students wanted it for the same reasons....
Give a bum in the street a couple bucks for food, and well he may just spend it on beer :o

This whole argument is funny cause its based on knee jerk reactions IMO.

Earlier Dave mentioned the differences (big or small) between WSL and WKL VT even though WKL learnt from him. Which others not Dave IMO, took as meaning its not effective or is somehow inferior. Nows its blown out to this LOL.....

What is this about anyway ?

Some people do VT to learn to fight, i certainly dont pretend to know why people do it for other reasons

You dont see people leanrnig how to surf to not go out and surf, man the world of martial arts is a weird one :cool:

DREW

[Ernie]

Lol Ernie, WSL being criticised from the opposite (less hardcore) direction here. The way you look at Spencer for example is how people like the die hard WSLVT "believers" look to me. It's a matter of perspective. You have to be able to shift the belief and approach it in an empirical way



How would you TEST this, in a reliable, repeatable way which would give you info that would enable you to tell one wing chun variant (eg Spencer's) from another (eg yours)? If that's a bit of a stretch imagine someone a bit closer functionally but different ideas.

--- simple ,,, go out and bang no need for poparattzi or forum or linage antics ,,, the journey is personal and the extent of how far you want to push the envelope is personal ,, no need to for a judging body of dudes all trying to push there religion

I never got into this for trophies or pats on the back ,, it would appear some need the ego boost ;)

if you have been in the line of fire enough you develop an eye to someone that can move with efficient motion or a dancer or a blow hard ...

I personally don't care about this or that about wing chun religion you want to follow or bash ,, wing chun guys are the least of my worries in a street fight ,,, :cool:

[Wai Paan Long]

Ernie, you seem like a nice guy to train with :)

And I agree, Wing Chun practioners are usually the guys I am the least wurried about when it comes to a fight (be it in a ring or elswhere) unless offcourse they are one of my close students cq trainingspartners ;)

"true victory is self-victory"

[sihing]

Ernie, you seem like a nice guy to train with :)

And I agree, Wing Chun practioners are usually the guys I am the least wurried about when it comes to a fight (be it in a ring or elswhere) unless offcourse they are one of my close students cq trainingspartners ;)

"true victory is self-victory"

Dude, if you are ever in the LA area, or if he is in your area doing a seminar, you definetly want to get together with Ernie. Besides being a great training partner, he is a very good coach with a ton of knowledge and skills to share (Wing Chun, Savate, Muay Thai, JKD, Filipino stuff, but his mind is focused strickly on WSL VT now). I've been doin WC since 88', and when I met Ernie in person in 06' he totally changed my views on WC and how it works, a real eye opener. You can't go wrong with a guy like him:)

James

[Wai Paan Long]

Before there are a lot of WC Practioners insulted, I ment in my previous post that in my experience most WC practioners play it safe and don't go and test there skills. Most of them make quite a 'lazy' impression on me, sorry to say this ...
I come from a pretty hardcore training background (Kyokushin, TKD, Muay Boran) and love Wing Chun, but I teach it in such a way that my students also have an idea from what they might be up against. Hence the extra training we provide in BJJ, Escrima and MMA.
But I understand that this is not for everybody, also in my schools ;)

Gr.

B.

www.iucta.nl / www.wmaa.nl

[sihing]

Before there are a lot of WC Practioners insulted, I ment in my previous post that in my experience most WC practioners play it safe and don't go and test there skills. Most of them make quite a 'lazy' impression on me, sorry to say this ...
I come from a pretty hardcore training background (Kyokushin, TKD, Muay Boran) and love Wing Chun, but I teach it in such a way that my students also have an idea from what they might be up against. Hence the extra training we provide in BJJ, Escrima and MMA.
But I understand that this is not for everybody, also in my schools ;)

Gr.

B.

www.iucta.nl / www.wmaa.nl

No insult taken bro, to each their own, as we all have our reasons for training, some for the same reasons as ourselves, some for different reasons. I agree, that most look at WC as an easy way out, but in my experience WC is just like anything else, if you want to get good at it and understand what it is teaching you, you have to work hard at it on a consistent basis. No one achieves anything of any high quality without putting in the work first. So if I see someone using WC incorrectly it usually means they never put the work in. If that is the case they can't be representative of the art now can they? I only try to look at those that have put the work in, if they can use it so can I.


James

[HardWork8]

Before there are a lot of WC Practioners insulted, I ment in my previous post that in my experience most WC practioners play it safe and don't go and test there skills. Most of them make quite a 'lazy' impression on me, sorry to say this ...
I come from a pretty hardcore training background (Kyokushin, TKD, Muay Boran) and love Wing Chun, but I teach it in such a way that my students also have an idea from what they might be up against. Hence the extra training we provide in BJJ, Escrima and MMA.
But I understand that this is not for everybody, also in my schools ;)

Gr.

B.

www.iucta.nl / www.wmaa.nl

No insult taken either, except that this is the first time I see TKD and the word "hardcore" in the same sentence :D