Iron Palm/Body training pros and cons

[xcakid]

OK, I will ask the experts here. Perhaps Mr Dugas can shed some light too.

What are the pros and cons of this type of training? We all know that if not done right it can be a detrement to you. But what other effects can it have short and long term? How does it affect the health of a martial artist overall considering it is done correctly?

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, I will ask the experts here. Perhaps Mr Dugas can shed some light too.

What are the pros and cons of this type of training? We all know that if not done right it can be a detrement to you. But what other effects can it have short and long term? How does it affect the health of a martial artist overall considering it is done correctly?

What have you heard?

[Broken Fist]

Pros
Strengthen Hands, Arms, Bones, Increased muscle in hands and arms.

Teaches you to strike correctly/Follow through with strike/Transmit your energy effectively into your target.

Fun as hell :)

Cons
If your a moron and train wrong you can end up with seriously messed hands.
Time it takes to practice.

Training it wont make you invincible, time is better spent training if your chosen art, once you gain good enough skill in the art then you can think about adding supplemental training like this to your routine.

That's just my view point on this. I used to train Iron Palm for an hour and a half every night and attained pretty high skill level with it but found it to be quite useless when the person your fighting against has much higher fighting ability than yourself. That and school/work got in the way, also my girlfriend complained when I slapped her ass lol but my time has freed up again so I may go back to training this.

[Black Jack II]

Strengthen Hands, Arms, Bones, Increased muscle in hands and arms.

I bet a person can not find ONE scientific study to validate any of the above.

[TenTigers]

Wolf's Law states that gradual and continuous stress placed upon a bone will result in incresed bone density. This is exactly what Iron Palm training is.

[Lucas]

Who needs scientific study when you can find a master of iron fist and just see for yourself....

just because science has not devoted the time to study iron fist methods does not mean it does not exist....the world isnt flat anymore either.

[sanjuro_ronin]

.

I bet a person can not find ONE scientific study to validate any of the above.

Well, I had an x-ray done before my Ip and then 6 months after, and there was "noticable differences in bone density", according tot he technician.
Haven't done one since though.
Of course he didn't notice it off the bat, he was looking at the healing process of a finger I had dislocated a year or so before that ( my excuse for the x-ray), as he was looking I asked him if he noticed any difference in my before and after pics in regards to the bones, and after closer scrutinty he remarked on the bone density, funny he asked me if I had started working a jack hammer for work.
Again, this is after only 6 months.

Not "pure" scientific, but good enough for me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI:

http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-chop-in-slow-motion.html

Goos reason to do IP.

[Black Jack II]

I know Wolff's law as it is indicated for weightlifting. Wolff's law has to do with a loading principle and how that loading principle works to give that specific bone more resistance to that specific type of loading.

That can be tested. Where does it showcase for a fact that slapping a bag full of material does this specific statement-
Strengthen Hands, Arms, Bones, Increased muscle in hands and arms

Now if he mentioned power development and nerve conditioning to pain, that is soemthing I can go with, at least a different discussion anyway.:D

btw- you do notice I am not saying it does not, but am asking for proof.

[Lucas]

someone should take 3 people that have studied Iron Fist/Palm training for 10 years or more, then 3 martial artists who have never studied IP.

set up something they can hit that will gague the force issued with a punch.

Have the punching point be done on iron or steel plate

see who can hit it harder

[Black Jack II]

someone should take 3 people that have studied Iron Fist/Palm training for 10 years or more, then 3 martial artists who have never studied IP.

set up something they can hit that will gague the force issued with a punch.

Have the punching point be done on iron or steel plate

see who can hit it harde

Sorry, but that will not showcase what you attended to explain.

Hitting power has almost nothing to do with iron palm conditioning. Look into the physics of how mass works in motion, proper structure alignment, physical conditioning, and don't forget good old genetics.

[Lucas]

im talking about how hard a guy can hit a solid piece of metal and not break his hand.

[Lucas]

increase the number of people involved in the study.

10 IP vs 10 non IP trainers.

if 8 IP trainers can hit noticably harder than non IP trainers, that is evidence IMO

[Lucas]

only prob is you have to get guys to break their hands. so no one will volunteer.

[TenTigers]

Wolf's Law also applies to the increase in leg and foot bone density occuring in runners due to impact on the pavement, or running surface.
Iron Palm is gradually increasing the impact, duration, and striking medium.
Skin and muscle density occurs similarly to how a callous is formed. The body adapts to stress. Muscle fibers also develop from increasing weight loads, as in weight lifting. Power is increased due to the fact that the strikes are "relaxed," meaning the recruitment of protagonistic muscle groups, and the relaxing of antagonistic muscle groups. Combine that with the proper structures,body movement and you have Quite a synergystic approach.
It's basic physiology, not some Fantasy Island Kung-Fu Movie type nonesense.
If it is kept within these realms, it's really nothing special. It's only when the LARPERS get their mitts on it that it all goes down the tubes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know Wolff's law as it is indicated for weightlifting. Wolff's law has to do with a loading principle and how that loading principle works to give that specific bone more resistance to that specific type of loading.

That can be tested. Where does it showcase for a fact that slapping a bag full of material does this specific statement-

Now if he mentioned power development and nerve conditioning to pain, that is soemthing I can go with, at least a different discussion anyway.:D

btw- you do notice I am not saying it does not, but am asking for proof.

I recall it being applicable in explaining why the bones in the feet of barefooted distance runners are denser than those that run with shoes.



Hitting power has almost nothing to do with iron palm conditioning. Look into the physics of how mass works in motion, proper structure alignment, physical conditioning, and don't forget good old genetics.
What will hit harder a 10lb hammer or a 10lb rubber mallet?

[Broken Fist]

Wolf's Law also applies to the increase in leg and foot bone density occuring in runners due to impact on the pavement, or running surface.
Iron Palm is gradually increasing the impact, duration, and striking medium.
Skin and muscle density occurs similarly to how a callous is formed. The mody adapts to stress. Muscle fibers also develop from increasing weight loads, as in weight lifting. Power is increased due to the fact that the strikes are "relaxed," meaning the recruitment of protagonistic muscle groups, and the relaxing of antagonistic muscle groups. Combine that with the proper structures,body movement and you have Quite a synergystic approach.
It's basic physiology, not some Fantasy Island Kung-Fu Movie type nonesense.
If it is kept within these realms, it's really nothing special. It's only when the LARPERS get their mitts on it that it all goes down the tubes.

Nice write up TenTigers!

[Lucas]

I know is I can hit a tree about twice as hard with my right hand as I can with my left hand...

is my right hand genetically superior to my left hand?

or could it be from my habbitual practice of always hitting hard surfaces with my right hand...

[Black Jack II]

What will hit harder a 10lb hammer or a 10lb rubber mallet?

This applies to your hand how.....:D

Last I checked my hand was made out of meat, skin and bone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This applies to your hand how.....:D

Last I checked my hand was made out of meat, skin and bone.

Your hand, not mine. :D

Seriously, its one of "give" and depth of follow through, things that IP training effects directly.
There is also a "subconcious" effect, knowing that your hand can take more punishment allows you to hit harder ( hold less back).

[Dale Dugas]

OK, I will ask the experts here. Perhaps Mr Dugas can shed some light too.

What are the pros and cons of this type of training? We all know that if not done right it can be a detrement to you. But what other effects can it have short and long term? How does it affect the health of a martial artist overall considering it is done correctly?

There are some very nice pros the number one being you are carrying around a nice weapon that can never be taken from you unless someone hacks your hands off.

Carrying weapons can be illegal in some places and having the ability to defend yourself with your palms is not bad.

Also you will learn to control your mind, your health as well as learn to rid your body of excessive tension and learn to connect through your structure to the ground.

You can double your striking power through this not through hitting the bag, hitting the bag helps to condition the hands but you are learning to move through the correct structure and bring energy from the earth through you into someone else or something(bricks, etc...)

The cons are slight if you train correctly.

My teacher told me the worst thing for him was trying to pick up a paper clip off a freshly waxed linoleum floor. Too me that is what magnets are for.

You have to be careful with your kids, wives/husbands, and pets. You can hurt them without thinking once you have charged/trained your hands.

Let me know if there are any other questions.

[bakxierboxer]

.... Power is increased due to the fact that the strikes are "relaxed," meaning the recruitment of protagonistic muscle groups, and the relaxing of antagonistic muscle groups. Combine that with the proper structures,body movement and you have Quite a synergystic approach.
It's basic physiology.....

Heh!
Somebody finally said it!
That concept has been a MAJOR focus of ALL my TCMA training for "a rather long time" now.

[Black Jack II]

There are some very nice pros the number one being you are carrying around a nice weapon that can never be taken from you unless someone hacks your hands off.

I find comparing iron palm conditioned hands with illegal weapons, or for that matter, any real weapon to be a very serious stretch.


Also you will learn to control your mind, your health as well as learn to rid your body of excessive tension and learn to connect through your structure to the ground.

I see the standard quasi mysticism in here.


You can double your striking power through this not through hitting the bag, hitting the bag helps to condition the hands but you are learning to move through the correct structure and bring energy from the earth through you into someone else or something(bricks, etc...)

Again, zero proof of what doubling your striking power even means. Hitting the heavy bag in my view and that of what seems to be every contact sport athlete on the planet, is the only real way to learn to develop power.

To say that hitting the heavy bag does not use correct structure is false and borders on asianophilism.


You have to be careful with your kids, wives/husbands, and pets. You can hurt them without thinking once you have charged/trained your hands.

Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.

[Mook Jong]

Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.

why do you say that? It's like what broken fist said, post 3. He was hitting harder than he realized. It seems like a classic examply of not knowing your own strengths/limits. I'm kinda confused though, are you say IP has no use or that it doesn't necessarily make you hit harder?

[Lucas]

Isnt Pan Qingfu a living iron fist master?

He has a pretty unique life history, he has done a lot of things. Through out it all, he continued his iron fist training....

With the credentials and accomplishments he has, im inclined to believe he continued his training with purpose and knowledge. He far out weighs most of us on here in regards to CMA training and knowledge.

Cons of IF training....Have you seen Pan Qingfu's right hand??? Grotesque.

[bakxierboxer]

Sorry, but man, this comment actually borders on the retarded. Sorry to be so blunt but that has to be a joke.

Would you find it "more believable" if I said that the conditioning "resets the default level of contact" that the conditioned limb uses for "a touch"?
This means that the "instinctive" touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past "the surface".
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to *consciously control* your touch.
It's a little bit like being "a bull in a China Shop".

[kfman5F]

Bones density does happen. The porous parts of the bone will fill in. Practicing incorrectly will be harmful. I know of one person who developed cataracts. Also internal damage to the organs can occur. Done correctly, to my knowledge, will not have harmful effects. Your hands will increase in thickness without losing dexterity. The main thing is to breathe correctly. Always breathe out when hitting and being relaxed when hitting. Like hitting with dead weight and no force. Very, very important to use Dit Da Jow. Even with correct breathing, etc. this will increase chi and blood circulation for healing while striking.

[Egg fu young]

also my girlfriend complained when I slapped her ass .


She liked it when I did it but then again I'm a Tai Chi guy
:D

[Broken Fist]

She liked it when I did it but then again I'm a Tai Chi guy
:D

That's what you think. It was actually me in disguise!:eek:

[Broken Fist]

Black Jack have you ever trained in Iron Palm before? Have you met anyone who has trained this way? Why discredit something simply because some dude in a lab hasn't come out with a report on it?

Test it out for yourself, you can get pretty good results within a month depending on how you train. Not sure if you'll be able to break bricks within that time frame but your striking power will increase and you'll notice that instead of making a huge movement you'll only need half the distance to strike just as hard.

If not thats cool its your opinion and I'm not out to try and change it :)

[bakxierboxer]

... I know of one person who developed cataracts....

There's more than the one......

[Chosen-frozen]

Would you find it "more believable" if I said that the conditioning "resets the default level of contact" that the conditioned limb uses for "a touch"?
This means that the "instinctive" touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past "the surface".
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to *consciously control* your touch.
It's a little bit like being "a bull in a China Shop".

Reminds me of an interview I read with a leper. (It`s not curable once you have it, but there are drugs that prevent it from getting worse or being contagious.) They said the biggest challenge is having to consiously grip things gently. The nerve damage made it so they couldn`t tell how tightly they were gripping things and until they learned how to cope they were always breaking glasses by squuezing them. One guy said he had left permanent grip marks in his car`s steering wheel.

[bakxierboxer]

Reminds me of an interview I read with a leper. (It`s not curable once you have it, but there are drugs that prevent it from getting worse or being contagious.) They said the biggest challenge is having to consiously grip things gently. The nerve damage made it so they couldn`t tell how tightly they were gripping things and until they learned how to cope they were always breaking glasses by squuezing them. One guy said he had left permanent grip marks in his car`s steering wheel.

Heh!
It's not quite THAT bad.... unless you're training in one of the harder external types......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would you find it "more believable" if I said that the conditioning "resets the default level of contact" that the conditioned limb uses for "a touch"?
This means that the "instinctive" touch/contact changes from a superficial/surface contact to an inch or more past "the surface".
What Dale alludes to is that in certain circumstances you eventually will find it necessary to *consciously control* your touch.
It's a little bit like being "a bull in a China Shop".

One more piece falls into place...

[sanjuro_ronin]

As a JMA I approached IP with a critical eye, to say the least, hence the X-rays and such.
Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here.
Certainly one can't compare it to carrying around brass knuckles, though I have felt the hands of some and they were "getting there", LOL !
And certainly without a delivery platform its is borderline uselss.
Nevertheless, the conditioning works.

[David Jamieson]

If you don't do it with correct instruction and method, and if you think that just simply repetitively striking things is the method, then you will damage yourself and you will be unfit in your auytumn years and likely deformed on some level.

If you receive correct instruction and carry out the method properly, you will be fine and you will not experience any ill side effects.

In young men, side effects are difficult to spot, but poor kungfu practice can be seen readily in the middle aged in their overall energy and physique.

people who practice incorrectly are easy to see at this stage in their life, easy to spot and frankly, in the kungfu world, the appear to be a lot. lol

having said that, don't practice ip or iv/is/ib without absolutely verifiable correct instruction. If you don't do your due diligence, then you deserve the pain and suffering you will face for incorrect practice. :) Maybe you'll find your kungfu there?

[Black Jack II]

Remeber, I never said "hand conditioning" was not important. Though, the realm of absurdness that comes with some of these comments is just plain silly, and a good deal of it I bet is based on blind exceptance based on teacher whorship and it gets even more funky when things like chi and health benefits are brought up without ANY empircal proof to back up the statement.

If you want to hit hard, you better condition your strikes, but a large part of this hand conditioning does not actually involve the hands themselves. Rather it is wrist conditioning that is important.

Punching the heavy bag is the closet you can come to punching another human being without hitting someone, that and the wonderfull BOB dummy, and it is a key element along with wrist freeweight workouts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Remeber, I never said "hand conditioning" was not important. Though, the realm of absurdness that comes with some of these comments is just plain silly, and a good deal of it I bet is based on blind exceptance based on teacher whorship and it gets even more funky when things like chi and health benefits are brought up without ANY empircal proof to back up the statement.

If you want to hit hard, you better condition your strikes, but a large part of this hand conditioning does not actually involve the hands themselves. Rather it is wrist conditioning that is important.

Punching the heavy bag is the closet you can come to punching another human being without hitting someone, that and the wonderfull BOB dummy, and it is a key element along with wrist freeweight workouts.

First off, which one of my comments or views has struck you as absurd?
Second, wrist conditioning is part of IP training.
Third, IP is done to compliment and not exclude Bag work and things of that nature, matter of fact, the "hanging IP Bag" is a great tool for closed fisted and pointed knuckle strikes.
Its smaller in size than a typicla HB, and the filling is more "substancial" than rags and such you find in a typical IP bag, think of it as an advanced HB and NO, we don't use the IP bag and hang it up, its a special bag, think about 1/4 of the length and about 10" -12" in Dia.

[Black Jack II]

First off, which one of my comments or views has struck you as absurd?

I was not picking on you, ya clown rapist:D

Though, to say Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here, I find a bit off base, as nothing has really been shown as a fact here, if you are to take the word fact as it really means.

When people talk about how you have to be carefull around loved ones, how it helps inner health, how it is close to carrying a weapon, blablabla....then yeah I find those comments to be a little out their.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was not picking on you, ya clown rapist:D

Though, to say Fact is it works, on a variety of levels as it has been touched on here, I find a bit off base, as nothing has really been shown as a fact here, if you are to take the word fact as it really means.

When people talk about how you have to be carefull around loved ones, how it helps inner health, how it is close to carrying a weapon, blablabla....then yeah I find those comments to be a little out their.

Not sure how you found out about my past in the circus...
Anyways.
I can't comment on the inner health and chi stuff, I train to fight.
But I can say that after starting IP I have been more "heavy handed" on my sparring partners when demoing stuff, giving them bruises on their arms and bodies from what I though were "love taps" IE: Shard enough to work, not hard enough to leave a mark.
the reason is assume is because of the combination of being more "dead handed" and what Baxierboxer wrote.

[bakxierboxer]

One more piece falls into place...

I think I previously mentioned it on TMA in a similar thread.......

[Lucas]

Facts for iron training are hard to reproduce on the INTERNET.

1. Very little scientific studies have been done. SJ told of his personal study, referenced the facts involved.

2. Most facts about iron training will be seen in person, by a master of the method, or by yourself.

3. The internet is a pretty horrible place to start asking for iron training facts.

4. Real life is the place to seek answers if you are really curious.

[bakxierboxer]

Not sure how you found out about my past in the circus...

What made you think it wasn't obvious? :D


But I can say that after starting IP I have been more "heavy handed" on my sparring partners when demoing stuff, giving them bruises on their arms and bodies from what I though were "love taps" IE: Shard enough to work, not hard enough to leave a mark.
the reason is assume is because of the combination of being more "dead handed" and what Baxierboxer wrote.

"Heavy handed" is a "good description" as far as it goes.

My own teachers look down on a "dead hand".....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Facts for iron training are hard to reproduce on the INTERNET.

1. Very little scientific studies have been done. SJ told of his personal study, referenced the facts involved.

2. Most facts about iron training will be seen in person, by a master of the method, or by yourself.

3. The internet is a pretty horrible place to start asking for iron training facts.

4. Real life is the place to seek answers if you are really curious.

I have noticed that, and this isn't a slight on you Black jack, modern sport MA tend to disavow things from TMA simply because they are Traditional.
Not very "progressive" or "critical" of them.
They have no issues in going to a BJJ ( for example) school to test their views, but seem reluctant to do the same for something like IP and perfer to ask about "studies" and "proof" instead od doing the same "hands on research" they apply to modern MA.

[xcakid]

After reading all the comments, few quote come to mind:

"Ya never know till you try it"
"Results may vary"

[stonewarrior67]

You asked about pros and cons.

Pros too many to list, I'll stick with the cons.

Cons Finding a reputable teacher with iron palm skills and the right hand medicine then it's TIME TIME and TIME. For iron palm it takes 20 minutes twice a day for at least one solid year (NOT MISSING A DAY, HERE AND THERE) then you may back off to once a day for another year and then you must keep it up or you'll loose what you have. That really doesnt seem like a lot but it is.

Iron vest or body you still must find a reputable teacher that has access to the right medicine and again TIME, TIME and MORE TIME. It takes ONE HOUR AND 20 MINUTES, try that every day for a year or two before you can back off.

There are only a handful of people with real iron palm/body capabilities in the entire world and most of them are old men. No one on this board is capable of real iron palm/body, sure they might have scratched the surface and I'm including myself in this catagory. Wanna argue with me that you are an iron palm master then get yourself some 2" patio blocks, DO NOT BAKE THEM OR SCORE THEM, USE NO SPACERS BETWEEN and DO NOT BE A SISSY AND USE A CLOTH DRAPED OVER THEM...IN OTHER WORDS DO NOT CHEAT. Take them right from where you got them, support them on the ends with building concrete blocks and SLAP through them with an open hand. Anyone can slap through 1, I've seen guys with no training get through 3 blocks, but after you get up to 4 blocks(and that's 8" solid) you got a little training. At 6 blocks i'd say you're on your way to having something that will last, at 8 blocks or more you have REAL IRON PALM.

My point is, in our society today with the hustle and bustle of day to day life even a single guy would find the demands of undertaking such rigoris training programs just too much to complete.

SW

PS: No, I dont want to see any of your youtube videos

[IronWeasel]

For iron palm it takes 20 minutes twice a day for at least one solid year (NOT MISSING A DAY, HERE AND THERE) then you may back off to once a day for another year and then you must keep it up or you'll loose what you have.



So...what does this mean about the bone-building aspect of this training. Wouldn't the bones in your trained hand remain harder?

[TenTigers]

as you get older, you lose calcium from your bones-osteoporosis. Bones, like muscle atrophy when they are not used, so you would have to maintain your training. Theoretically, you have to train harder as you age.
(that sux)

[xcakid]

Theoretically, you have to train harder as you age.
(that sux)


Or does it just seems harder due to age? :p

[RonH]

This is why energetic development is much better to focus on most of the time than hitting something. Besides, how many times is a block of concrete gonna get up and throw itself at you? I have yet to see it.

[stonewarrior67]

RonH,
Agree whole heartily that the bricks wont hit you back. and yes you got to have the skill to deliver a damaging IP strike. If you can crush a mountain of bricks but cant get it from point a to point b then you've waisted a lot of time.
The brick thing is to be done once in a while, say twice a year, to gauge yourself so to speak.
SW

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI:

http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-chop-in-slow-motion.html

Goos reason to do IP.

Re-quoted for informational purposes.

[Steve Hamp]

Facts for iron training are hard to reproduce on the INTERNET.

1. Very little scientific studies have been done. SJ told of his personal study, referenced the facts involved.

2. Most facts about iron training will be seen in person, by a master of the method, or by yourself.

3. The internet is a pretty horrible place to start asking for iron training facts.

4. Real life is the place to seek answers if you are really curious.


These are all very good points. The only problem is that most people can't find "real life". As Stone Warrior said, they're only a few out there.

[Lucas]

These are all very good points. The only problem is that most people can't find "real life". As Stone Warrior said, they're only a few out there.

Too true. Unfortunately if someone was really serious about testing iron skills, they would most likely have to travel, and spend some cash.

Kind of a catch 22. The only guys willing to do that are the guys who want to train iron. Not the guys wanting to defraud it.

[stonewarrior67]

Lucas, not necessarily true about the travel and money part. There are a few kick ass real deal IP guys in the US that can train you and get you the right medicine without draining you of your life savings. The only testing part is up to you in front of your peers or alone in your basement as I already spelled out in a post or two back. Guys that are the real deal want to spread their knowledge not secrete it. They pretty much show you how it is done and it is up to you what you do with it. It is a long hard journey but one well worth taking.
SW

[David Jamieson]

Facts for iron training are hard to reproduce on the INTERNET.

1. Very little scientific studies have been done. SJ told of his personal study, referenced the facts involved. there are plenty of studies on what makes muscle dense and what make bone grow and what will toughen skin. Iron training uses methods taht develop these areas. In other words, tere is loads of scientific support for the toughening of the human corporeal form literally

2. Most facts about iron training will be seen in person, by a master of the method, or by yourself. one can surmise a lot about the value of a strong build vs the value of a weak build

3. The internet is a pretty horrible place to start asking for iron training facts. not really, the internet is a vehicle and a resource and can be viewed as such. Using it as the final answer for any given query is folly though, I do agree with that sentiment

4. Real life is the place to seek answers if you are really curious.In fact, this is the only valid teacher you will ever have imo

my comments on this are in bold. These words are metrely to pass the 10 letter thing. :-)

[Lucas]

So, for those of you who have trained IP/IF for a good length of time, how do you feel about beginning your training via internet and video.

Without having to go to a teacher to start.

Anyone know any Iron trainers in Portland OR?

My point being, even to go to another state can be spendy, not to mention the whole having to find a new job and housing deal.

I could see going to a teacher for "updates" and corrections. If this is the case how often should this be done, and should one begin with this or just start at home with the basics.

From what I understand the basics are...well. basic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, for those of you who have trained IP/IF for a good length of time, how do you feel about beginning your training via internet and video.

Without having to go to a teacher to start.

Anyone know any Iron trainers in Portland OR?

My point being, even to go to another state can be spendy, not to mention the whole having to find a new job and housing deal.

I could see going to a teacher for "updates" and corrections. If this is the case how often should this be done, and should one begin with this or just start at home with the basics.

From what I understand the basics are...well. basic.

IP is not a fine motor skill, can one learn how to skip rope from a DVD ?
Yes, and rope skipping id more "fine motor" than IP.
Its the quality of the instruction that is crucial, the quality of understanding that is vital and a nice balance of common sense.
That and a good product (Jow).

Some people can screw up anything, no matter how well instructed and others need minimal instruction and they seem like they have done it for years.

[Lucas]

IP is not a fine motor skill, can one learn how to skip rope from a DVD ?
Yes, and rope skipping id more "fine motor" than IP.
Its the quality of the instruction that is crucial, the quality of understanding that is vital and a nice balance of common sense.
That and a good product (Jow).

Some people can screw up anything, no matter how well instructed and others need minimal instruction and they seem like they have done it for years.

Got any links to a good place to begin IP/IF?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Got any links to a good place to begin IP/IF?

What is IF ?

[Lucas]

im just lumping iron palm, iron fist.

could just call it iron hand i guess. I'm not interested in just the palm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

im just lumping iron palm, iron fist.

could just call it iron hand i guess. I'm not interested in just the palm.

The fist is not trained by all, some have issues with training the fist.
Just as some have issues with training the fingers.

Dale Dugas has a fine program and great Jow, there are a few others here too, but Idon't know if they have instructionals.
Steve Hamp used too and one hopes he will again.

Just avoid anything that tells you to slam or hit your hand hard and that use "everyday" jow for the treatment part of it.
In regards to the chi building part, wither you believe in it or not, my simple view is this:
Won't hurt, might actually help so, why not?

[Lucas]

This is looking pretty attractive.

https://www.coilingdragoninternalarts.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=63&zenid=3c53de3c0384a85e791925587cd07d1e

[Dale Dugas]

Lucas,

It is always better to learn from someone when learning this program but you can learn the basics and then start from there.

Any questions holler at me.

Paul,

As always thank you for the kind words...

[Lucas]

Lucas,

It is always better to learn from someone when learning this program but you can learn the basics and then start from there.

Any questions holler at me.

Paul,

As always thank you for the kind words...

My main problem is finding a qualified instructor in my area.

I am a quick learner, and have a nack with perception, so I'm hoping this could help me get situated from the beginning with something like what you offer on your site.

Is that package that I linked about my best bet for getting started?

I had some previous training when I was doing wing chun, sand bags/jow. But to me the place I was at didnt seem to have any set method. Seemed kind of poor, and I was concerned with improper practice and long term damage, so I stopped.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My main problem is finding a qualified instructor in my area.

I am a quick learner, and have a nack with perception, so I'm hoping this could help me get situated from the beginning with something like what you offer on your site.

Is that package that I linked about my best bet for getting started?

I had some previous training when I was doing wing chun, sand bags/jow. But to me the place I was at didnt seem to have any set method. Seemed kind of poor, and I was concerned with improper practice and long term damage, so I stopped.

My 2 cents:
If you can visit Dale, even for just one day, it will be well worth it.
His program is great and time tested.
His Jow is first class and I have used Jow from many other sources to compare.
His instructional is great and he is always available to answer any and all questions.
You can get in touch with Steve Hamp and see of he is closer to you, they have the same IP program from the same teacher, GM Chicoine.

IP is a work in progress, like any conditioning program, the biggest issue is looking at in from an "economist" point of view, IP like strenght training and all other forms of conditioning is "quality over quantity", more is NOT better, better is better.
Correct is better.
Its a 2 year program followed by a "lifetime' program simply because, like ST and other forms of conditioning, it will "go away" if not maintained.
Good part is that this type of conditioning takes much longer to go away than ST for example, and yes, life will cause you to lose some time and there will be days that you can't do it 2x a day and you may even miss weeks at times, it is NOT the end of the world, you just get back to it.
Sometimes a break is even a good thing, gives our bodies time to adapt to the stress put on it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lucas,

It is always better to learn from someone when learning this program but you can learn the basics and then start from there.

Any questions holler at me.

Paul,

As always thank you for the kind words...

Ah Bro, you go out of your way to help people, the very least I can do is give you props for it.

[Steve Hamp]

My main problem is finding a qualified instructor in my area.

I am a quick learner, and have a nack with perception, so I'm hoping this could help me get situated from the beginning with something like what you offer on your site.

Is that package that I linked about my best bet for getting started?

I had some previous training when I was doing wing chun, sand bags/jow. But to me the place I was at didnt seem to have any set method. Seemed kind of poor, and I was concerned with improper practice and long term damage, so I stopped.


As anything, you'll want to always "shop around". There are many variations of Iron Palm, just as I have seen different ways of doing Iron Vest and Muscle Restructure. You might not sign a year contract with the first school you checked out. I would advise this; read all you can about what you are wanting to persue, then check out who teaches what you want, then make up your mind as far as getting what you want.

[Dale Dugas]

Coach Steve,

Great words of advice.

For anyone interested. Both myself and Coach Steve teach Iron Palm from the same source. If you are interested please feel free to contact us.

[stonewarrior67]

Dale, I seen your sight and saw your brick breaking clips you have on there. Why only two bricks? and why the cloth? Just seems to me since your out there selling video and medicine why aren't you smashing at least 6 bricks on your website? Your IP "Teacher" smashed through at least 10...might be 12 cant remember. NOT SCORED, NOT BAKED, NO SPACERS. That was IP and still is. Not saying you're a charloten or weak but put some more blocks up there man! As on my previous post I've seen strong guys with no training break three bricks. You can do it!
When you bring your hand down, you cannot pull it...I seen you pull a little at the end....make your hand go to the floor.
A real nice demo of breaking is on you tube. Type in sifumiller and you'll see him crack 6 standing with a chop...and he does some with his elbow too.
I've personally seen Steve break but I dont remember if he was there when I broke or not. It sure is fun especially when you have an audience of your peers...it kind of stokes you up. It was used for ranking.
Anyway, more bricks!
SW

[Dale Dugas]

I use a cloth as I was injured breaking a few years ago and sliced my hand open. I do not want to do that ever again.

I will be putting up more breaks in the near future. A bit busy with working, nursing school, teaching Baguazhang.

Breaking does get your going....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale, I seen your sight and saw your brick breaking clips you have on there. Why only two bricks? and why the cloth? Just seems to me since your out there selling video and medicine why aren't you smashing at least 6 bricks on your website? Your IP "Teacher" smashed through at least 10...might be 12 cant remember. NOT SCORED, NOT BAKED, NO SPACERS. That was IP and still is. Not saying you're a charloten or weak but put some more blocks up there man! As on my previous post I've seen strong guys with no training break three bricks. You can do it!
When you bring your hand down, you cannot pull it...I seen you pull a little at the end....make your hand go to the floor.
A real nice demo of breaking is on you tube. Type in sifumiller and you'll see him crack 6 standing with a chop...and he does some with his elbow too.
I've personally seen Steve break but I dont remember if he was there when I broke or not. It sure is fun especially when you have an audience of your peers...it kind of stokes you up. It was used for ranking.
Anyway, more bricks!
SW

I don't know what you are insinuating when you put "teacher" in quotation marks.
As for seeing people break slabs without IP, everyone has, but how many have you seen break them with so little effort.

To me, that is the key, ( or chi if you prefer ;) ), to break with a simple slap with almost no momentum, just be dropping your hand.
See the video I posted in this thread of the Karate guy?
That was a serious break, but you can see the amount of effort put into it, that is not IP in my humble view.

Sifu Millers break are superb, no gray area there, so are the break of the "mutant hand" IP guy from china on youtube.
Coach Steve's breaks are very well done also, by the way.

[stonewarrior67]

Settle down there palsy. Dale, Steve and even Sifu Miller would know what I mean when I capatalize the word teacher and use parethesis.
Sifu Millers breaks are what I was talking about...following through...not pulling, not even thinking about pulling!
BTW I saw Steve and Sifu Miller break in person not on video.
SW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Settle down there palsy. Dale, Steve and even Sifu Miller would know what I mean when I capatalize the word teacher and use parethesis.
Sifu Millers breaks are what I was talking about...following through...not pulling, not even thinking about pulling!
BTW I saw Steve and Sifu Miller break in person not on video.
SW

I am settled :D
Rooted actually, LOL !
I didn't know what you meant, hence the question.
Remember, this is a forum with more people in it than just a few that may know what you "mean".
Thanks for clearing it up.

[stonewarrior67]

You are right, I used quotation marks not parethesis. Not finished with first cup o mud will do that to you.
Rooted? Your probably frozen to the ground up there. I'm quite a bit south of you and we got hit with another short round of snow last night...I hate winter!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where I am we didn't get any but **** I hate this winter, feels like its gone on forever, need to move to Turks and Caycos !
:D

[IronWeasel]

I'd post a video of my breaking of two blocks, but then everyone would see how messy my garage is. I still have last years grass caked onto the mower. Shameful.

I'd try three blocks, but I'm afraid my hand would end up like a ziplock baggy full of legos!

[Steve Hamp]

Breaking (as most things in life) is alot more mental than physical.

So Iron Weasel, there's no doubt if you can break 2, you can break 3. Now after it does require some training.

Now, about Bob Miller. I've always liked Bob, he's a great guy, and his breaks on you tube are very good, the only comment that I have on the subject of breaking bricks that are standing upright is, 1 should be the limit.

Breaking more then 1 brick standing up, is like breaking with spacers when you're breaking downward.

I'm not taking anything away from Bob, because I have seen him break in person as well, and his Iron Palm skills are pretty good, but I notice when I broke the bricks standing on end, that less bricks equals more difficult breaks.

[IronWeasel]

Breaking (as most things in life) is alot more mental than physical.

So Iron Weasel, there's no doubt if you can break 2, you can break 3. Now after it does require some training.

Now, about Bob Miller. I've always liked Bob, he's a great guy, and his breaks on you tube are very good, the only comment that I have on the subject of breaking bricks that are standing upright is, 1 should be the limit.

Breaking more then 1 brick standing up, is like breaking with spacers when you're breaking downward.

I'm not taking anything away from Bob, because I have seen him break in person as well, and his Iron Palm skills are pretty good, but I notice when I broke the bricks standing on end, that less bricks equals more difficult breaks.


I actually could use a good critique, though. I watched some breaks, such as Sify Miller, and he holds his palm at about eye level and drops it from there.

I hold my hand above my head and use my shoulders and body weight when I strike.

Not to mention...my garage is filthy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Breaking (as most things in life) is alot more mental than physical.

So Iron Weasel, there's no doubt if you can break 2, you can break 3. Now after it does require some training.

Now, about Bob Miller. I've always liked Bob, he's a great guy, and his breaks on you tube are very good, the only comment that I have on the subject of breaking bricks that are standing upright is, 1 should be the limit.

Breaking more then 1 brick standing up, is like breaking with spacers when you're breaking downward.

I'm not taking anything away from Bob, because I have seen him break in person as well, and his Iron Palm skills are pretty good, but I notice when I broke the bricks standing on end, that less bricks equals more difficult breaks.

I once saw a break of a slab that was being held by string, ****dest thing I ever saw.
The inertia thing is tough and it would make sense that the more slabs standing the more "weight" is behind the target and so breaking could be "easier".

Still, I ain't gonna try it !
:D

[Akronviper]

Why only two bricks? and why the cloth?

A true IP master should be able to break 2 bricks with their limp *@$# :D

[stonewarrior67]

Viper, How are you? Me working seconds for now. Sorry I screwed you over and didn't call you back that one day we were supposed to get together for some HY but I was called into work and forgot all about it until now. I feel like a limp *@$#
Haven't seen you and Hillbilly for a while.

IronWeasel you've painted the perfect picture of your garage...I've no doubt that grass caked on your mower came from your wife doing the lawn last summer and not you.

Steve, Bobs you tube break is still pretty impressive considering he had to follow through with it and they are broke clean...no pushing....that's a skill in itself only a handful of people possess...now if he was breaking downward I'd say you were right. It takes some ball matter to hit even one on end with a chop or a palm...I never did it...I always pulled and hurt my hand :( . We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Y'all have a great Easter!

SW

[IronWeasel]

IronWeasel you've painted the perfect picture of your garage...I've no doubt that grass caked on your mower came from your wife doing the lawn last summer and not you.


SW



Well, that's 'cause if she does a good job on the lawn, I let her do the dishes!

[Steve Hamp]

Now, about Bob Miller. I've always liked Bob, he's a great guy, and his breaks on you tube are very good, the only comment that I have on the subject of breaking bricks that are standing upright is, 1 should be the limit.

Breaking more then 1 brick standing up, is like breaking with spacers when you're breaking downward.

I'm not taking anything away from Bob, because I have seen him break in person as well, and his Iron Palm skills are pretty good, but I notice when I broke the bricks standing on end, that less bricks equals more difficult breaks.


There is no doubt that the demonstration that Bob has done on you tube is good.
I just mention this because of my own experience. I learned it the hard way. I started with 1 standing and then worked my way up. As I worked my way up, I realized it was much easier to break more that way.

Steve

[Akronviper]

Sorry I screwed you over and didn't call you back that one day we were supposed to get together for some HY but I was called into work and forgot all about it until now. I feel like a limp *@$#
Haven't seen you and Hillbilly for a while.
SW

Hey, what are freinds for anyways?:D, I broke my leg shortly after then so Ive been out of commision. Just trying to work back into it.