Japanese Wing Chun?

[KPM]

Just wondering....does anyone know of a distinctively "Japanese" rendition of Wing Chun?

The Japanese are very good at taking something "foreign" and adapting it for themselves. Chan Buddhism became Zen in Japan. White Crane Kung Fu became Karate. Chinese Acupuncture was adapted to a distinctive Japanese version. Thai Boxing was adapted into Japanese Kickboxing. Western catch-wrestling was adapted to Japanese Pro wrestling and MMA. And need I mention the automotive industry? :D

Just wondering if Wing Chun has any kind of following in Japan and how it may have been "adapted" if it does.

[UKBBC]

Looks like the Lo Man Kam has established a school in Tokyo at least

http://www.chienwingchun.com/english/main.html

I don't think Wing Chun has been in Japan long enough to really be mastered and adapted to Japanese tastes...could be wrong though.

[anerlich]

Western catch-wrestling was adapted to Japanese Pro wrestling and MMA.

There was really a fair bit of traffic in both directions, with Ju Jitsu and Judo influencing the West as well.

I don't know much about Japanese WC ... I did visit a Xingyi school in Tokyo in the days I was doing that. I saw some decent Xingyi, but not really any "Nipponification".

[CFT]

Yiquan is present in Japan as Taikiken. I don't know how popular it is and how much it has changed.

[couch]

No to derail the discussion, but maybe you folks would find this interesting:

Japanese acupuncture, for the most part, is performed by the blind. The same thing that happened in China in regards to "proving" medicine because of the influx of western medicine thought happened in Japan. Both countries were going to throw out folk medicines like acupuncture and herbology in favour of the "western" variety (biomedical sciences).

While Japan was quite busy becoming a seriously industrialized country, they recognized that the blind would have no jobs in the "new world." So with much pleading from that population, the blind had their designated profession laid out by the government.

A new style of acupuncture then developed. One we call "Meridian Therapy." It has evolved over the years, lending many diagnostic techniques to sophisticated palpation. The idea has helped me in my practice. For the Traditional Chinese Medicine approach, most points are chosen based on patterns about a person's condition in relation to their verbal responses, their tongue picture and radial pulse. While these are of some importance in Meridian Therapy, moreso is the ability to sense tightness or depressions along a meridian (hence why the blind are so successful with it - possible heightened sense of touch).

In my practice, not only is it nice to get certain acupuncture points right because of pattern diagnosis, but it is certainly great when there is a "problem" with that acupuncture point as well.

But of course, one has to wonder (if one believes in this sort of thing) whether I'm actually doing the healing, or just part of a bigger picture (God/Source/channel). But that's WAY off topic!

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[donbdc]

I heard that a Brit might be opening up a school outside of Tokyo next year, my only concern for him is what will he do w/o any good English ales to drink. Better learn how to Brew:D
Don

[UKBBC]

I've heard that the Japanese lagers are good enough over there! :p

[KPM]

Hey Kenton!

A new style of acupuncture then developed. One we call "Meridian Therapy." It has evolved over the years, lending many diagnostic techniques to sophisticated palpation. The idea has helped me in my practice. For the Traditional Chinese Medicine approach, most points are chosen based on patterns about a person's condition in relation to their verbal responses, their tongue picture and radial pulse. While these are of some importance in Meridian Therapy, moreso is the ability to sense tightness or depressions along a meridian (hence why the blind are so successful with it - possible heightened sense of touch).


----I have been studying the Japanese approach to acupuncture recently and find myself drawn to it much more than the TCM approach. I am beginning a medical acupuncture course next month that is given by the Helms Medical Institute. I am a Physical Medicine doctor and a Chiropractor and treat a lot of chronic pain patients. I really like the Japanese emphasis on palpation and locating points based upon reactivity rather than textbook locations. Another similar approach that I have been recently reading about is from an acupuncturist named Mark Seem. He combines the western approach to myofascial problems that was developed by Janet Travell with the Japanese meridian therapy systems. Of course, as a PM&R doc, that's right up my alley! :)

[Vajramusti]

A note-there can be variations depending on individual skills and cumulative experience.

Re: A Chinese acupuncturist I know and trust in the valley:I have lost touch with him lately but he is very good.
He is from Tianjin, PRC. His training involved some required med school courses then followed by
TCM training. He was on the faculty of an acupuncture college at Tianjin. Over 20 years of hands on experience. And he knows his herbs well. And does hands on dit da. He does "feel"
every relevant point before inserting needles. His diagnosis includes hands on work besides
pulses, tongue, tongue etc.
In TCM as in many things- depends on who you see.

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

Hey Kenton!

I am a Physical Medicine doctor and a Chiropractor and treat a lot of chronic pain patients.

Now that we've completely hijacked this thread, we better just continue, hey? :cool:

If you treat chronic pain, etc, I really recommend Braving The Void:
http://paradoxpublishing.com/pages/books.php

It is written by an M.D. who runs the Victoria Pain Clinic. It holds accounts of amazing healing through myofascial, acupuncture and hyperventilation breathing therapies. It really changed my outlook on health and wellness. It's really cheap, too! :)

Our acupuncture association is bringing a gentleman from PEI out to teach the Japanese Abdominal Palpation. It helps blend some eastern and western diagnostics and is supposed to react immediately to your acupuncture treatment. I like this idea as you don't have to wait a week for the client to return with their findings.

Joy: Yes, it is true that many people can be good at many things no matter their country or training. My problem is that I want to digest everything RIGHT NOW! So over the lifetime of my career, I'm sure I will become quite well rounded. I'm very excited about how far this medicine can take me AND my clients!!! Good to hear that other practitioners are embracing all parts of this medicine. Just like anything (Wing Chun?!?), segregation and "my acupuncture is better than yours" doesn't do anybody any good.

All the best to you both,
Kenton Sefcik

[Almost A Ghost]

To get back on topic:

Here's a pretty karatefied version of Biu Gee

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1GT5_X75Bg

[KPM]

A note-there can be variations depending on individual skills and cumulative experience.
In TCM as in many things- depends on who you see.

joy chaudhuri

Hi Joy!

That is a good point! But one can talk in generalities as well. In the early 60's communist China decided to "revamp" its approach to healthcare. Trying to follow a western model, they sought to standardize the traditional acupuncture methods into one system that could be widely and easily taught. What they came up with is now known as "Traditional Chinese Medicine." In the spirit of "standardizing" knowledge they produced acupoint atlases that precisely locates points based on anatomical landmarks. This is not how points were found in the "classics." They also put a much heavier emphasis on the status of the organs or "Zang Fu" than on the meridians and the theoretical background comes primarily from herbalism systems. Diagnosis centers more around looking at the tongue, palpating the pulses, and questioning the patient than on palpation of the meridians themselves and other various areas of the body. "Family" systems still exist in China. "Tung's" Acupuncture is one by way of Taiwan that is gaining popularity in the west. So things can definitely vary with different individuals. But for the most part, when talking about "TCM" it will have the characteristics that Kenton and I were talking about.

[LoneTiger108]

To get back on topic:

Here's a pretty karatefied version of Biu Gee

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1GT5_X75Bg

I would refer to this clip as a 'stolen' form! :rolleyes: I have never seen anything like this before in schools from a Japanese background. I have to say though, I've seen similar attempts in some WCK clips on Youtube.

Begs the question, does anyone actually know this once forbidden form?

[Buddha_Fist]

Begs the question, does anyone actually know this once forbidden form?

Seriously: Are you kidding?

If not. Why forbidden?

[UKBBC]

Oh yeah,

I met a cung nhou black belt practitioner recently. Although he alluded that there were elements of wing chun, he didn't provide any convincing evidence for it other than trying to focus some karate style punches to the centreline.

I do believe this vietnamese style was developed recently (as opposed to centuries past), but wing chun was in Vietnam a long time ago, allowing plagiarism over time. Would love to hear their interpretation of the biu jee movements though...

[LoneTiger108]

Seriously: Are you kidding?

If not. Why forbidden?

Well, I'm as serious as one can be on a forum! ;)

Perhaps I should explain. You see, when I was training SLT it was considered to be a bit 'eager' to want to learn CK or BJ. In fact it was 'forbidden' in a way to even 'look' at it! Who knows why?! I came to the conclusion that Sifu just wanted us to concentrate on what we were doing and where we were at. There was never really any talk of 'secrets', quite the opposite in fact.

What I have seen on the web in reference to BJ seems to me to be plenty of 'copying' and in some cases it's quite hard to believe that some were shown the form at all by anyone.

Most of what I see are simply images of the forms sequences, some accurate and some not so and most done at a mediocre pace. I have yet to see anything even close to a 'full speed and power' interpretation of what this form can do! :)

[jooerduo]

I would refer to this clip as a 'stolen' form! :rolleyes: I have never seen anything like this before in schools from a Japanese background. I have to say though, I've seen similar attempts in some WCK clips on Youtube.

Begs the question, does anyone actually know this once forbidden form?


that's called trying to copy something without knowing the reasons or functions behind each moves

pretty funny

[anerlich]

Yiquan is present in Japan as Taikiken. I don't know how popular it is and how much it has changed.

Good point - I've actually got a book on Taikiken somewhere.

The school I went to was straight Xingyi - black uniforms, frog buttons, etc.


my only concern for him is what will he do w/o any good English ales to drink

As an Aussie with a brother in law who managed pubs in Britain for over 20 years, I can state with some authority that "good English ales" is a contradiction in terms.:p


Most of what I see are simply images of the forms sequences, some accurate and some not so and most done at a mediocre pace. I have yet to see anything even close to a 'full speed and power' interpretation of what this form can do!

I've seen good Bil Jee from several lineages. Your expereince is very different from mine. That "Bil Jee dies not go outside the door" stuff passed its use by date in the early nineties IMO.

[Liddel]

To get back on topic:
Here's a pretty karatefied version of Biu Gee
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1GT5_X75Bg

WoW, interesting find - im guessing she's never applied any of that :rolleyes:

Different strokes for different folks. I suppose if i got applause like that at training i might go five times a week instead of four LOL.


when I was training SLT it was considered to be a bit 'eager' to want to learn CK or BJ. In fact it was 'forbidden' in a way to even 'look' at it! Who knows why?!

I can understand this POV.
BJ does break rules or is contrary to behaviours that you are trying to forge into habbit early on. Seeing things in BJ such as actions comming from under ones bridge could confuse someone learning to behave without doing that.

First you must learn to use a tool before you are taught to adapt the same tool when its not sucessful. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I've seen good Bil Jee from several lineages. Your expereince is very different from mine. That "Bil Jee dies not go outside the door" stuff passed its use by date in the early nineties IMO.

Yes we all have individual experiences, so of course I am different to all of you, as you are all different than eachother!

'Good' Bil Jee is fine, but what is 'superb' Bil Jee? Have you seen that? I have seen aome phenomenal examples, yet I've still to see this 'outside' my own family.

Maybe it's the commercial thing, as the people I'm talking about are not Youtubers or Facebookers. Man, they can't stand all this chit chat actually. But they move through the forms with ease and understadning. We all appreciated the complexities of the forms, especially BJ, so we're grateful to have even 'seen' it demonstrated...

[anerlich]

but what is 'superb' Bil Jee? Have you seen that?

Yep.

You can come across as pretty patronising, you know. Might want to consider trying to disguise that tendency in preparation for your upcoming job interviews.

I dragged out my taikiken book the other night. It was interesting - a lot of the techs were different to the Xingyi I did, and there's a bit of a taiji influence there as well.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The first time I seen someone do Bil Jee I was shocked. Not really shocked, but was sort of taken by the difference in the way I did it. Then the next time I seen it done I noticed it was also different from mine as well as the first one I had seen. I think it will vary from generation to generation. That is probably why we have so many different lineages. That is a strange word.
Most of the forms I have watched were just a series of arm and leg movements that had no real focus or structure. Just going through the motions so to speak. Especially the Sil Lim. I don't think it really took Yip Man 20 minutes or 2 hours or whatever to do the tan sau moves. A few minutes for the entire form might be more accurate. You start slow to learn form and structure. You only get faster as you can maintain this focus.
I know that you guys think Bil Jee is just another form. It is, but it isn't. Bil Jee is dangerous. It is like taking a knife to a fist fight. It is not magical at all, but if you develop your weapons properly you can kill with these techniques, and quite easily. In 1968 I was working in a large dance hall after my day job, and I was just leaving for home when I was attacked in the parking lot. I had asked a couple of guys to leave earlier and they were waiting for me. As I walked to my car one of them was standing near the front of the car. As he was talking to me his friend stepped up behind me and stabbed me in the back. The blade, maybe 3 inches long, passed right through my rib cage and into my left lung. It hurt like hell, but fear gripped me and I turned and ran backwards, forcing him back against my car. The knife closed half way and he lost his grip on it, as I turned I struck one time into his throat with my right hand with a kill neck thrust. I felt it as it crushed against his neck bone, and then he dropped. I walked back into the building and got the owner and another employee to call the cops and get me some help. Back then the ambulance looked like a hurst. Anyway, It was not until the police went out to look at the scene of the attack that they found him dead. His wind pipe and some other things were crushed and he was knocked out immediately and never took another breath. Had I not been stabbed in the back and I had applied this killing blow I would not have been able to justify myself. One thing about Bil Jee is that once you train it, you tend to use it, even when it is not really justified. You can not justify some things, no matter how you try.

[anerlich]

I know that you guys think Bil Jee is just another form.

You don't know what any of us think. Lose the attitude.

Glad you survived, assuming the story is true.

[KPM]

Had I not been stabbed in the back and I had applied this killing blow I would not have been able to justify myself. One thing about Bil Jee is that once you train it, you tend to use it, even when it is not really justified. You can not justify some things, no matter how you try.

Thanks for sharing your story. Glad to hear you made it out alive! But the movement you mentioned is also in the SNT and CK forms. You wouldn't have to be an expert in the Biu Jee form to do what you did. The way I understand it, the Biu Jee form is designed to teach you how to recover from unfavorable circumstances when you have "screwed" up. It is more about improving your position and situation than it is about advanced deadly techniques. Granted, being attacked from behind with a knife is indeed an "unfavorable situation" in need of recovery! But I would tend to ascribe your success to the ability to turn and cover blindly with good balance as taught in the Biu Jee form than to the actual strike that you managed to land. But then I wasn't there! ;)

[Buddha_Fist]

The first time I seen someone do Bil Jee I was shocked. Not really shocked, but was sort of taken by the difference in the way I did it. Then the next time I seen it done I noticed it was also different from mine as well as the first one I had seen. I think it will vary from generation to generation. That is probably why we have so many different lineages. That is a strange word.
Most of the forms I have watched were just a series of arm and leg movements that had no real focus or structure. Just going through the motions so to speak. Especially the Sil Lim. I don't think it really took Yip Man 20 minutes or 2 hours or whatever to do the tan sau moves. A few minutes for the entire form might be more accurate. You start slow to learn form and structure. You only get faster as you can maintain this focus.
I know that you guys think Bil Jee is just another form. It is, but it isn't. Bil Jee is dangerous. It is like taking a knife to a fist fight. It is not magical at all, but if you develop your weapons properly you can kill with these techniques, and quite easily. In 1968 I was working in a large dance hall after my day job, and I was just leaving for home when I was attacked in the parking lot. I had asked a couple of guys to leave earlier and they were waiting for me. As I walked to my car one of them was standing near the front of the car. As he was talking to me his friend stepped up behind me and stabbed me in the back. The blade, maybe 3 inches long, passed right through my rib cage and into my left lung. It hurt like hell, but fear gripped me and I turned and ran backwards, forcing him back against my car. The knife closed half way and he lost his grip on it, as I turned I struck one time into his throat with my right hand with a kill neck thrust. I felt it as it crushed against his neck bone, and then he dropped. I walked back into the building and got the owner and another employee to call the cops and get me some help. Back then the ambulance looked like a hurst. Anyway, It was not until the police went out to look at the scene of the attack that they found him dead. His wind pipe and some other things were crushed and he was knocked out immediately and never took another breath. Had I not been stabbed in the back and I had applied this killing blow I would not have been able to justify myself. One thing about Bil Jee is that once you train it, you tend to use it, even when it is not really justified. You can not justify some things, no matter how you try.

Can you fly?

[Lee Chiang Po]

No, I can not fly. The point I was trying to make I guess is that when I am threatened I will immediately use Bil Jee. I have done so many times, and I have been in trouble a few times as well. I have never considered it an emergency move at all. When in a bad situation or things get a bit hot I simply move backwards and try to get out of it. Bil Jee is not what I depend on for that. It is just an advanced form of attacking very vital and delecate areas of the body.
How many people do you know that would press an attack if they had just had a hand shoved into their eye socket up to the big knuckle? Or had been stabbed in the throat with a hand that is as hard as wood? There are so many different pressure points that are taken into consideration. And some of them are subject to be life threatening if attacked.
I may have said this in another thread, but I have also been beaten beyond recognition a few times, stabbed a few times, and even shot once. Some things you just don't see coming, and then some you may not be able to avoid. But then fear is a different matter. When you are suddenly very afraid you are charged with adreneline and you will not consider the options, but will just go with what feels right. For me, Bil Jee always seems to feel right, and if you train it, so will you.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Thanks for sharing your story. Glad to hear you made it out alive! But the movement you mentioned is also in the SNT and CK forms. You wouldn't have to be an expert in the Biu Jee form to do what you did.

No, I have never seen either form done with the kill neck thrust. It is a Bil Gee hand technique. It is not a chop as such. A chop is powered strictly by the elbow. No other force is behind it. The Kill neck is a forward thrust just like a punch. The difference is that the hand is held flat and on an angle of about 45 or 50 degrees and shoved directly into the throat or side neck area. You have your entire body weight plus the speed of the thrust. If you have trained hands you can almost shear off a persons head, so to speak. The stricking area of the hand is the same as a regular chop however. I have not really seen this used in some Bil Gee forms, but I have seen a few where it was. I learned Bil Gee a bit different from what we see today. It has been over 45 years since I learned it. This is why I stated that I was taken by the difference in the forms that I had seen since. I am not trying to say I do it better, but I certainly do it differently. And in all this time I have not seen very many people that were Wing Chun practitioners, so I can not really say I can compare. I do watch some of these youtube videos though.

[Liddel]

I agree with Keith.


No, I have never seen either form done with the kill neck thrust. It is a Bil Gee hand technique.

After double Tan then Double Jut Sao in my SLT i perform a double horizontal Bil. Fingers aimed at the eyes sure, but it aint far from the same action aimed at the throat in BJ.

I think you'll find this action in the second section of SLT in almost all of the VT out there.

In my CK it is the second hand action after opening my YGKYM. Personlly i do double Jum first then double vertical Bil, this happens to be aimed at the base of the neck.

Most other schools ive seen have it as the first action, but they have it.

The only thing new in terms of the Bil in BJ, is that it comes from under ones bridge.


The Kill neck is a forward thrust just like a punch.

Yep sounds like my action from SLT and CK. Using elbow and wrist for added stabbing force along with of course a good horse step/turn.

It would be easy to find a vid of someone doing it on Youtube IMO.

DREW

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yep sounds like my action from SLT and CK. Using elbow and wrist for added stabbing force along with of course a good horse step/turn.

It would be easy to find a vid of someone doing it on Youtube IMO.

DREW

If you can find it, please post it here. I would like to see. My SL and CK forms also have the eye sweep and chop, but they are not the same at all. I can not develop the power with it as I can with the thrust.
And when done with speed, you can not tell it from a straight forward stab with the fingers. This hand technique is not the extent of my Bil Gee.

[Liddel]

If you can find it, please post it here. I would like to see.

SLT

At 2:31 WSL shows it here...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ugs5Q7e9NY8

CK
The first one is WSL, in my form the thrust is a vert Bil. The other two however crude one might think they are, have the action. This was from 30 secs of surfing to find them for you.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d5p-YpR2JuQ&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=b1R_1VMugic



My SL and CK forms also have the eye sweep and chop

All my Biu actions are trusts, the very idea of Biu to me is a trust, Biu Jee or Bil Sao as a block. Anything else is another action with another name all together.



but they are not the same at all. I can not develop the power with it as I can with the thrust.
And when done with speed, you can not tell it from a straight forward stab with the fingers. This hand technique is not the extent of my Bil Gee.

IMO a thrust and a stab are the same thing, so i dont follow you without seeing - sorry. :o


My SL and CK forms also have the eye sweep and chop, but they are not the same at all. I can not develop the power with it as I can with the thrust.

Out of curiousity, what are the different motors driving each action that would make one more powerful than the other ?

DREW

[Matrix]

May I be so bold as to suggest that Biu Jee has more to do with a level of power and intensity that you bring to the game as opposed to specific 'techniques' or a series of predefined movements that we call a form. So when Lee Chiang Po says "The point I was trying to make I guess is that when I am threatened I will immediately use Bil Jee." I think of that as meaning to bringing relaxed power to the centerline with speed and precision, regardless of the hand in question.

Bill

[couch]

May I be so bold as to suggest that Biu Jee has more to do with a level of power and intensity that you bring to the game as opposed to specific 'techniques' or a series of predefined movements that we call a form. So when Lee Chiang Po says "The point I was trying to make I guess is that when I am threatened I will immediately use Bil Jee." I think of that as meaning to bringing relaxed power to the centerline with speed and precision, regardless of the hand in question.

Bill

This is really interesting. I had a conversation with my teacher about this a time ago.

Do you (Bill and others) see the BJ being taught as the only form that has "Ging" or relaxed power? In the way I was originally taught, that precision/relaxed power/etc was introducted in the last form because it takes such a long time to cultivate other things.

After much research into "older" family systems, my Sifu found that in their "versions," they had that Ging, etc, in the forms from the get-go. So after that, it was a free-for-all! LOL

Thoughts?

Kenton

[tjwingchun]

My view is that it is only after the length of time it takes to learn Biu Gee that noticable "ging" will be developed, but once that is achieved it should be present in ALL the forms and every technique.

So it is not a specific knowledge saved and taught in Biu Gee, merely the natural progression of individual development that occurs coincidently when the system is taught in the correct timeframe.

Some hold back teaching Chum Kiu and Biu Gee for anything up to and over 10 years (which to me is criminal but I know it happens) and you find that thoes students who only have Siu Lim Tau to work with have still developed significant "ging" in their punches and basic techniques.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk

This footage is for showing the individual movements of the form and not a demonstration of it flowing, which is why it is more robotic and defined rather than fluid with "intent".

I have said for many years that I use ALL of my forms in EVERY technique I perform, they are not separate, each move of the form teaches about a different muscle group and directional energy that can be utilised in a variety of ways, what dictates how a technique looks from the outside is not the part of a form that it is from but the circumstances that necessitate its use.

[Matrix]

After much research into "older" family systems, my Sifu found that in their "versions," they had that Ging, etc, in the forms from the get-go. So after that, it was a free-for-all! LOLI see it as a progression. No point in trying to teach someone to sprint when they can't even walk yet. At some point all the forms become one. So that your Biu Jee is in your SLT, CK and dummy etc. and vice versa. Once the circle has been completed it may be hard to tell where it started and where it ends - if that really matters.

Bill

[KPM]

Do you (Bill and others) see the BJ being taught as the only form that has "Ging" or relaxed power? In the way I was originally taught, that precision/relaxed power/etc was introducted in the last form because it takes such a long time to cultivate other things.



Not just "no", but "heck no"! Anyone that doesn't teach the expression of "ging" until Biu Jee level is holding out on you! I agree with Bill, its a progression. SNT is learned first standing perfectly still and moving the arms. But as the student gets better and learns good structure he starts using his whole body in SNT even though his feet don't move. At least that's the way I do it and teach it! :)

[couch]

Cool. I'm picking up what you're laying down. :cool:

Thanks, guys!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Out of curiousity, what are the different motors driving each action that would make one more powerful than the other ?

DREW

If I can explain better, the chop is a sweep or a swinging action where the edge of the hand strikes a target. The power can be very good with a very strong person and if they have a very good swing going, but the hand move I was speaking of is not a sweep or swing at all, but a forward thrust as in a finger stab, except that the fingers do not make contact, but rather the chopping edge of the hand. It can be extremely powerful as you can actually place your entire weight behind it rather than the momentum of an arm. If the action is quick you can add to this weight and impact. That is about the best I can explain it I think.
When I first started my training I was the youngest boy in the family and so had to train with 2 girls. Our dad would watch and ask the older boys and girls what they thought. If they felt I was ready they would teach me another segment of the forms. They would all have to agree first. The first thing I did in the mornings was to go to the bathroom and throw cold water in my face to wake up and start doing the Sil Lim. I would do it as many as 30 times in a day. Slow, faster, and faster. I had to maintain the same focus and structure fast as when slow. Then one day I moved up to the Chum Kil form. That took much longer. And as I was learning it, I would also do the moves on the Jong. I called him Mooky man. Each segment was learned and trained until I was doing it well enough that all would agree, then move to the next.
I went and watched the youtube videos that were posted, and was amazed at the number of people that were viewing them. Are all these people Wing Chunners?

[Armin]

Hi!

We had teh same question some years ago ... try Eishunken on google.

Additionally there seems to be another, well, style of Wing Chun in Japan (at least it looks like it has some parts of Wing Chun in it). Try these links:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbVABeO00Q&feature=related

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tAam3DZd8&feature=related

Don't know, why they call it koppo. Koppo-jutsu is well known in several japanese systems as the art of bone-breaking ...


Armin.

[Matrix]

Don't know, why they call it koppo. Koppo-jutsu is well known in several japanese systems as the art of bone-breaking ...Hi Armin,
Thanks for the links to videos.
Things were not too bad, until I saw this one (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JxyDEkin28k&feature=related). :rolleyes:

Bill

[Mr Punch]

I've never come across a 'Japanesified' wing chun in the eight years I've been training over here.

Haven't checked those youtube vids yet - I'm at work - so I can't comment. I'll check them out when I get home. There are lots of elements of JMA, esp old school 'koryu' that look 'Chinesey' (and that's where some of them are from of course, so it's not so surprising), and koppo is usually an element of these older schools, so it may not be related to chun, but like I say, I can't comment till I've seen them or someone's described them.

[Armin]

Hi Bill,


Hi Armin,
Thanks for the links to videos.
Things were not too bad, until I saw this one (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JxyDEkin28k&feature=related). :rolleyes:

Bill
Looks like two beginners in WT playing the 'pak sao/punch-game' :D

Somehow, some videos remind me of the good old WWF-times ... ;)


Armin.

[Mr Punch]

It's a kind of magic!

Finally saw it... er, thanks, I guess.

That was really funny... they call it koppo because the takedowns and locks were from koppo. The slaps are obviously taken from chun... but no-one can say that this is a Japanesified chun in the same way as I-Ken or Taikiken are Japanese versions of Chinese arts: there's nothing systematic - it's just one quack supplementing his koppo with slaps, sticking and centreline principles (which, although I don't claim to know anything about koppo, since some of it's similar in some ways to aikijutsu, probably already has a strong centre principle) and calling it traditional.

What's really shocking is this! (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8Stx-i-S4cs&NR=1) :eek: Like WWE but without the athleticism! :D

It's obviously the same organisation... I'd like to meet this Horibe geezer, just for a wheeze.

[KPM]

I've never come across a 'Japanesified' wing chun in the eight years I've been training over here.


Thanks for the feedback! I was hoping you would chime in. :) I haven't watched those video clips yet either. I have the same problem at work.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk . .
Good form TJ

[Matrix]

The slaps are obviously taken from chun... .
I guess it wasn't that obvious to me. :rolleyes:
I doesn't look like anything I'm familiar with.


What's really shocking is this! (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8Stx-i-S4cs&NR=1) :eek: Like WWE but without the athleticism! :DYeah, I saw that one too. I think your comment sums it up quite nicely. BTW, what's with the drums?

Bill

[tjwingchun]

Good form TJ
Cheers, it is just basic to give students a reminder of the moves of the form, I will be making a detailed one soon hopefully, as I did with Siu Lim Tau, along with all the other forms when I get back online properly and my life sorted :eek:

[KPM]

Hi!

We had teh same question some years ago ... try Eishunken on google.

Additionally there seems to be another, well, style of Wing Chun in Japan (at least it looks like it has some parts of Wing Chun in it). Try these links:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbVABeO00Q&feature=related

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tAam3DZd8&feature=related

Don't know, why they call it koppo. Koppo-jutsu is well known in several japanese systems as the art of bone-breaking ...


Armin.`


Thanks for the videos Armin! It certainly looks like a version of Wing Chun to me! I'd like to know more about the history of this style. There are to many similarities to be coincidence. There had to be a strong Wing Chun influence somewhere! :eek:

[Armin]

Hi KPM,

it really would be interesting to find out more about that system ... but my Japanese is, well, there's no such thing in my language-arsenal. ;)

So, if anybody else has the possibility to get in contact with these guys, any information would be appreciated.


Armin.

[KPM]

Hi KPM,

it really would be interesting to find out more about that system ... but my Japanese is, well, there's no such thing in my language-arsenal. ;)

So, if anybody else has the possibility to get in contact with these guys, any information would be appreciated.


Armin.

I watched the videos again. A lot of it looks like straight-up Jeet Kune Do trapping sequences, which gives it a Wing Chun-like appearance. I watched the sparring footage and the "festival" footage. Their sparring doesn't look bad. At least they actually go at it. It looks a lot like free Chi Sao without the rolling platform. If I watched these without any preconceptions I would think these guys were doing a version of Wing Chun. They certainly looked more like Wing Chun than the guy fighting the Muay Thai opponent in the footage from KOTC on another recent thread. When I envision Wing Chun tournaments that are more than just friendly Chi Sao, I see something similar to this. But hopefully with a little better body structure and footwork. :)