What styles make up Kempo?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hello all. I know American (Parker) Kempo/Kenpo has a Chinese influence to it. I was wondering if anyone knows what Chinese or east Asian arts went into it's development?

[Chosen-frozen]

Well, I don`t know about Parker`s system. I know his teacher growing up in Hawaii was William K.S.S. Chow, the same guy that taught Adriano Empirado, (who was one of the guys who founded Kajukenbo) and Sam Kuoha (who`s the head of Kara Ho Kempo).

But the word Kenpo/kempo is just the Japanese pronounciation of the characters for "fist" and "way". I think that it`s just a generic term like the Chinese pronounciations chuan fa or kun tao. For example, before they decided to use the name Karate the art Funakoshi brought to Japan from Okinawa was often reffered to as Ryukyu Kempo. And there`s a style of karate created here in Japan right after WW2 that had a big Chinese influence and it`s called Shorinji Kempo.

[Chosen-frozen]

I just remembered hearing that Parker used to visit Lau Bun in California from time to time to buy Jow, and the Lau liked him. So there might be some CLF "influence". But I`ve always heard that Lau Bun didn`t teach ANY non-chinese period.

[TenTigers]

Parker's teacher was William Kwai-Sun Chow, who learned Southern Siu-Lum (many say Hung Kuen) from his father Chow-Hoon. Parker also trained with Jimmy Woo and others, including Bruce Lee-you can see alot of cross influences in Enter the Dragon, and especially in the yellow self-defense book that Lee wrote. Chicken or the egg? . There are many Chinese influences in Kenpo. The newer versions such as those from Nick Cerio to Villari and onwards have less Chinese influence, even though Cerio recieved ranking from Chow(it was when Chow was much older) the further back you go, 50's and 60's the closer it comes to being Chinese. Chow also collborated with James Mitose, who added more linear and jiu-jutsu techniques. Look for the early Parker, Tracy,Castro,Ibrao,Chun, Ryusaki lineages.
In the older versions, many of the movements are right out of the Hung-Ga forms, in some cases, verbatum. Chow was a streetfighter, and took many brutal techniques and put them into rapid-fire blitzkrieg techniques designed to overwhelm the attacker. "Overkill is just enough" was the motto.
Don't judge kenpo by some of the stuff you see these days. Like Gung-Fu, you gotta dig through alot of dirt to find real gold.

[bakxierboxer]

I just remembered hearing that Parker used to visit Lau Bun in California from time to time to buy Jow, and the Lau liked him. So there might be some CLF "influence". But I`ve always heard that Lau Bun didn`t teach ANY non-chinese period.

SURE he "liked" him.
He was apparently more than willing to pay an absolutely OUTRAGEOUS price for jow.....

[bakxierboxer]

Parker's teacher was William Kwai-Sun Chow, who learned Southern Siu-Lum (many say Hung Kuen) from his father Chow-Hoon. Parker also trained with Jimmy Woo and others....
There are many Chinese influences in Kenpo....
the further back you go, 50's and 60's the closer it comes to being Chinese.......
Look for the early Parker, Tracy,Castro,Ibrao,Chun, Ryusaki lineages.
In the older versions, many of the movements are right out of the Hung-Ga forms, in some cases, verbatum. Chow was a streetfighter, and took many brutal techniques and put them into rapid-fire blitzkrieg techniques designed to overwhelm the attacker. "Overkill is just enough" was the motto.
Don't judge kenpo by some of the stuff you see these days. Like Gung-Fu, you gotta dig through alot of dirt to find real gold.

Hmmmm?
You might want to try asking someone who was there.....? (at least in the 60s)
Ryusaki was originally a student of Leoning.
The only guy I saw doing anything at all like H'ung Kuen was Johnny Mar (son of Sig Mar/Mah Sek of Suey Sing Tong)

[Yum Cha]

Parker, from what I know, also worked with Daniel Pai.

His only association with Bruce Lee was later when Parker started running Tournaments stateside and Bruce used them for self promotion. Parker assigned Dan Iosanto (sp?) to look after him, and we all know what happened next. No bad blood though, all cool.

Kenpo as I understand is the Japanese take on Chinese hand, Chinese fighting. A transition phase between Shaolin Kung Fu (whatever that means) and Karate (yea, whatever that means too...).

Parker's contribution is that he systemised it into 200 some odd techniques/combinations and built forms to contain them, based upon what he learned along the way.

Shorinji Kenpo is an older style, and a bit different. Don't know much.

Parker went seriously commercial in his latter days, granted belts to business partners, and eventually died young and overweight of a heart attack running or a plane. Sadly.

Some of the spin offs of Parker Kenpo have become testimonies to the ego of the students more than the style. Many have lost the 200+ techniques. Some do MMA and call it Kenpo, there are a few old school Parker Kenpo people around still.

It reminds me a lot of Hawaiian street fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So does anyone know specifically what Chinese styles influenced parker kempo?

[bakxierboxer]

Hmmmm?
You might want to try asking someone who was there.....? (at least in the 60s)
Ryusaki was originally a student of Leoning.

Now that I 'm thinking about it again, Cerio learned from George Pesare, who learned from
Sonny Gascon, who also was taught (at least in part) by Leoning.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?

[bakxierboxer]

Kenpo as I understand is the Japanese take on Chinese hand, Chinese fighting. A transition phase between Shaolin Kung Fu (whatever that means) and Karate (yea, whatever that means too...).


According to my teachers, the original Chinese characters for "kara-te" were actually different and were pronounced "Han Tsul".

Later on, as Japanese Nationalism became ever more dominant, the characters were changed to the katakana(?) indicating "Manchuria" or at least the "wasteland emptiness" that characterized it.
Today, some older SiFu will snicker if you tell them that your "hand" is"empty".

[xcakid]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?


Well, when I studied it.

The forms from white to purple were karate
Blue to Brown 3 were kinda made up but looked karate
Black were all Kung Fu animal forms so I am assuming southern. Matter fact the Dragon form looks like the one we use in my school now.

I learned a Choy Li Fut straight sword form.
I learned Yin Shou Gun
I learned a Northern Spear and Broadsword form


To simply answer your question from a former Shaolin Kempo perspective it is a hodge podge of styles that were brought in. Think of it as furnishing your apartment from various garage sales. It all functions as it should, couch in front of tv, dining table with chairs, but nothing matches.

[bakxierboxer]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?

I wasn't responding to you.

But, "Your guess is as good as mine."

Frankly, I don't see any.
The only thing I ever noticed was in Leoning's Kajukenbo, where we had a different way of forming the thrust punch.

I was "uchi deshi" (or what passed for it) living in Leoning's school.

Leoning and I were among Wong Ark Yuey's earliest non-Chinese students, and there was NO transfer.

Leoning ran entirely separate kung fu sessions on the weekends and had Wong SiFu out to "supervise" as often as possible....

[bakxierboxer]

Well, when I studied it.

The forms from white to purple were karate
Blue to Brown 3 were kinda made up but looked karate
Black were all Kung Fu animal forms so I am assuming southern. Matter fact the Dragon form looks like the one we use in my school now.

I learned a Choy Li Fut straight sword form.
I learned Yin Shou Gun
I learned a Northern Spear and Broadsword form


To simply answer your question from a former Shaolin Kempo perspective it is a hodge podge of styles that were brought in. Think of it as furnishing your apartment from various garage sales. It all functions as it should, couch in front of tv, dining table with chairs, but nothing matches.

That could very well be the case.
None of that was "around" ("open") "back in the day".

From another perspective, "kung fu" implies that you can actually USE your "stuff"........

[Black Jack II]

This is actually a really good question.

I think TenTigers gave a really nice background. Here is a good link on the subject.

http://kiyojuteryu.org:1084/soke/articles/ultimate.shtml

Personally, I have always been fond of solid, old school kempo players and their systems. I think one of the best streamlined self defense systems around was McSweeny's orignal power hitting White Tiger Kenpo system.

As for Shorinji Kempo that is a different system I believe.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Personally, I have always been fond of solid, old school kempo players and their systems. I think one of the best streamlined self defense systems around was McSweeny's orignal power hitting White Tiger Kenpo system.

Reply]
Yeah, they are solid hard hitting guys alright. The system is headed by Tom Saviano in Addison IL. last I heard.

[Black Jack II]

Yeah,

A friend of mine from highschool has his kid in the Savino school. I used to know the old teacher there, before Savino took over. I am not sure if Savino uses the original McSweeney system, or his own hybrid but McSweeney's core stuff, was simple and practical.

He taught point-shooting as well and was a serious bad ass.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I used to live with one of his Brown belts. Back then hew was teaching the form he developed for his Black Belt test, and Mcsweeny's material after...although his form was built on Mcsweeny's teachings anyway so ultimately it was Mcsweeny's method.

Those guy beat me senseless once about 8-9 years ago.

[Black Jack II]

Most of McSweeny's system is really stripped down circular power striking. I practice a few of his strikes to this day which I find excellent.

The system from what I remember had-

1. Crane Fist- Whipping circular overhand strike using the star of the palm. You can see Hackey use it to bring down that Sumo wrestler in one of the first 3 UFC's.

Excellent strike. When done right it feels like your swinging a forged pipe of bone.

2. Long Range Axehands- Not so much the short range Ax Hands used in ww2 combato but the longer verison of the same period and the one used by a lot of cma.

Exellent strike

3. Battle Ram Punch- This is the same pivot punch used by the legendary teacher of self defense, Charles Nelson. Used to the sternum it uses a double waist movement for power. I think this maybe one of the few straightline attacks I was taught from that system.

Excellent strike.

4. Upswings and Doorknocker- Hackney used this one in the same UFC fight and broke his hand. The Upswing knicknamed the "chinese uppercut" and it packs a lot of power but in my view is not as safe as a conventional western boxing uppercut.

Still it is a excellent and unconvential strike that comes up from a hard to see angle and packs solid power.

The Doorknocker is used from a handsup position, from what is called in some circles the fence, and when the attacker is close, you slam your knuckles/fist into his face and upper lip, as if you were knocking on a door. It is a close range strike and if done with correct body mechanics and a drop step it is interesting to say the least.

5. Eagel Talon-Standard eagle talon 3 finger choke to trachea, but this one is a little different, it uses just two fingers and goes deeper into the nerves/glands for a pain complaince hold. It's more of a pinching movement.

There are others but this is some.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the most common strike I saw them use was something they called a Tiger strike. It's similar to what Hackney used to drop the really big guy he faught in the early UFC, only it comes directly horisontal.

[Black Jack II]

I think that is the same strike, when I was taught it, I believe it was called Crane but I would have to check my notes.

Really nice strike with a lot of power behind it, only con is that it is not a good first pre-emptive and it is often a hand behind ass sort of deal, but man its decent in the drop rate factor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I remember reading back in the day that the history of Japanese karate includes the following:

The word "Kara" in Japanese meant "China"...and "te" in Japanese means "hand".

So "karate" ORIGINALLY meant "China hand". (As in, karate was originally a Japanese adaptation of one or more kung fu styles).

But during World War 11 Japan was at war with China - and so for political reasons the Japanese changed the meaning of the word "karate" to mean "empty hand".

[tjmitch]

This is part of an old interview with GM McSweeny ( RIP)

Question seven: Kenpo's history tells us originally Kenpo had very few classical forms. We know Master Parker included six forms to this style after he came to the United States. Could you tell us how Master Parker went about creating his Kenpo forms and why he decided to add them to his system?
"When Parker came to America from Hawaii, he studied at Brigham Young where he got his degree in 1957, and as soon as he got his degree, he went to Pasadena, California and opened his school. He had not learned any forms and sets from Chow. He learned strictly self-defense techniques and sparring, so he was excellent in both. He created his short form one himself. Then he created another form called the Book Form, which is in his first book, "Secrets in Chinese Kenpo." It was a two-man form, that each man did individually, then at the end, they combined to show what the moves were for.

"In 1961 I went to Phoenix, Arizona after I had been with Parker for a few years. I was a brown belt. I trained with Bob Trias for a week because I was there on business. Bob was a former marine who brought Japanese-style Karate to America, even before Parker. Parker started Kenpo, but Trias, to my knowledge, was the first American Karate man who brought it to America. He started in Phoenix in 1955. He was a big fellow. About 6 foot 7, and 260 pounds. He was a hard hitter. Now with that kind of physique, you can understand, he would be going for power. So when I trained with him, he said my sparring was OK, and so was my self-defense. He had a high regard for the "Hawaiian boy," which he called Parker.

"But he said 'one thing you don't have, and tell Parker this, is that you don't have any forms'. So I went back to Parker in the summer of 61, and I informed him of what Trias said, and he looked at me, didn't say anything to me. The next day I was with him before training class, he looked over to me and said, 'You know, I've been thinking about what Trias told you, and he's right. I don't have any forms, I don't have any sets. Just some simple stuff I created myself.'

"Then he said, 'I'm going to solve this problem.' And within a month he brought down Jimmy Wu from San Francisco, who was a Kung Fu man, a specialist in White Crane and Tai Chi, and other animal sets, but he especially loved the internal arts. So, Jimmy Wu lived with Parker for a full 12 months. Parker paid his room and board, but unfortunately, not any salary, and that's why Jimmy Wu left us eventually, because he needed more money to survive and Parker gave very little, not enough for his needs, so he left.

"But before he left, Jimmy Wu created our forms. I was there when he created them, with the other belts like Al Tracy and Jimmy Ebrao and Rich Montgomery, guys who were my seniors at Kenpo. I was in the group, and we learned these forms together from Jimmy Wu. Parker learned the forms too, but then Parker made his own adjustments, especially to form one, two and three. He made more linear moves and some Kenpo moves in form two, but if you notice in forms four, five and six, they have the Chinese influence exclusively.

"I would say there was 90% Jimmy Wu and 10% Parker in those forms, and forms one through three would be half and half, Parker and Wu. But without Jimmy Wu, we wouldn't have had forms one through six, a lot of people don't realize that, and it's essentially Chinese and that's the basis of Parkers forms."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What style/s did Jimmy Wu do?

[Yum Cha]

RD,

Here's some old school Parker Kenpo from Oz. Outspoken guy.

Look at the vids and tell me what styles you think you see. Looks like a bit of Hung, and a bit of Southern with a little Japanese flavour...

http://www.real-kenpo.com/ is the website

http://ca.youtube.com/user/crazydragonkenpo is the youtube account with a number of videos.

Some are "basic" but some have techniques, speed and power.

[David Jamieson]

I saw a video tat was a direct rip off of tiger crane out of one of the books you can get.

kempo that is japanese and american kempo are different.

japanese may be steeped in chinese, but is distinctly japanese in it's presentation.

american kempo is mishmash city and draws from all over the place as is the american way I guess. probably a better approach to martial arts as opposed to saying "only this is good because it's from the region of the blibbity blah blah" and other such nonsense as we hold ourselves to in the traditional martial arts. :)

[bakxierboxer]

What style/s did Jimmy Wu do?

"Jimmy" (James Wing) Woo?

I dunno...
If you're THAT curious, he's supposedly still around....

[bakxierboxer]

Look at the vids and tell me what styles you think you see. Looks like a bit of Hung, and a bit of Southern with a little Japanese flavour...

http://ca.youtube.com/user/crazydragonkenpo is the youtube account with a number of videos.

Can't really tell that from the sets/kata.
It doesn't appear to have any real H'ung/Hung Gar/Kuen.
("Hung"/"Hong" Flood/Red Fist styles.... I don't know them, but they tend to look "more Chinese" than that)
In spite of the fact that there appears to be an attempt to use a known "hand" from H'ung Gar, it is not done in a manner that I would say there is any "kung fu" evident.

The forms presented were done in a stilted "work your basics" pattern and manner.
"Tacking on" something that can "pass" as a TCMA "salute" onto what is essentially a "karate" "striding excercise" does not make that excercise TCMA.

[bakxierboxer]

I saw a video tat was a direct rip off of tiger crane out of one of the books you can get.

Of the "moves"?
I think I've seen "that one".... IIRC, it's a "rip-off" of the "apparent sequence" without knowing what the transitions between the positions are supposed to be.


kempo that is japanese and american kempo are different. japanese may be steeped in chinese, but is distinctly japanese in it's presentation.

True.


american kempo is mishmash city and draws from all over the place as is the american way I guess. probably a better approach to martial arts as opposed to saying "only this is good because it's from the region of the blibbity blah blah" and other such nonsense as we hold ourselves to in the traditional martial arts. :)

Aside from changing "probably" to "possibly", I can't say that I disagree (overmuch) with that "sentiment".

[Yum Cha]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....:D:D

[David Jamieson]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....:D:D

well, the form is the sequence of tiger crane as taken from a book, be it buck sam kongs or the lam sai wing one or , well pick one, they're virtually all the same on this set. Could've come form a video or from someone else who knew the set.

i don't think it was presented as Hung Gar and it's probably not right to say "that;'s hung gar" because it's not. It's an american kempo interpretation of what Hung gar might be? lol

ijn which case you are better off going to a bonafide Hung gar school if you actually want to learn the set. :)

in my opinion, there is too much value placed on sets as shapes and not as snap together functions.

I use them still, but not nearly as much as I used to. there's too much other stuff to do that has higher value overall in training. And it's still traditional stuff methodolgy wise, just not patterns.

[bakxierboxer]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....:D:D

Not really.
See David's post re looking like it was taken from a book.
That's better wording of what I actually meant.

[bakxierboxer]

I actually agree with someone?
(not THAT unusual)
(or is it?)


well, the form is the sequence of tiger crane as taken from a book....

That's what I thought I was saying......


i don't think it was presented as Hung Gar and it's probably not right to say "that;'s hung gar" because it's not. It's an american kempo interpretation of what Hung gar might be? lol

Pretty much.....


ijn which case you are better off going to a bonafide Hung gar school if you actually want to learn the set. :)

True.


in my opinion, there is too much value placed on sets as shapes and not as snap together functions.
Linked (connected)(sequential) functions.


I use them still, but not nearly as much as I used to.

Strange, since they ARE what is meant by and constitutes "kung fu" "hands"......


there's too much other stuff to do that has higher value overall in training. And it's still traditional stuff methodolgy wise, just not patterns.

There IS a lot of "other stuff" that needs to be done to be a fully functional fighter. Among those things is learning to apply the "patterns" in an actual fight and applying them with "authority".

[Yum Cha]

Groovy - I get it. Maybe a taste of the Hung, i.e. Tiger and Crane form bits, but not the essence. Is that a fair cop?

Some of the combinations don't look much like Hung at all, they have more of southern hybrid with Karate look to me. Some of the Karate shapes, but a southern execution, in terms of pace and fluidity.

Keeping in mind, those are some big boys, and big boys play a little different than featherweights... or should I say skinny pip squeaks....:D:D:D

The story from the teacher is, it isParket Kenpo started as a "Shaolin" style, via Okinawa to Japan, to Parker in Hawaii. Thus theoretically, it should have some of the, I'm guessing, Lohan influence? Hung is the most easilly accessible Shaolin derivative, and I guess that explains my thinking... I know some of you guys are well versed in Hung.

Just for the record, I'm no expert, but I know those guys. I always liked Kenpo, being one of the more interesting American manifestations of traditinal martial arts, more flair and complexity than the Karate, Tae Kwon Do, spectrum, more traditional influence than the grapling, kickboxing spectrum. I also know a guy in Albuquerque, Fred Abshere who does a totally different kind of Kenpo, called Kodusho, which goes back to Shroinji, and has a lot more soft stuff - very shaolin - buried under the hard side.

[TenTigers]

well, as one who has taught kenpo and has been into Hung-Ga for over twenty odd years (very odd, in fact) I can see the connection. Many of the techniques, movements, etc come right out of the forms. It's like Hung-Ga movements taken to finishing techniques, in rapid-fire combinations. :cool:(this has influenced me and my teachings as well over the years) Then again, it may be from a more 'generic' Southern Siu-Lum-based style that Chow Kwai-Sun learned from his father, Chow-Hoon..
Ed Parker wrote, in Infinite insights to Kenpo, that when Mitose came to visit, and demonstrated his brand of kenpo, Parker's senior students were reather perplexed. Mitose's technique had none of the fluidity, or circular movements that Chow had, and many of his techniques put him in positions that left him vulnerable to attack. So it was more Chinese influenced by Japanese Karate, with sprinkings of Lua and Kali thrown into the melange. (melange sounds so much better than mish-mash);)
Here's another tidbit to make things even more murky-Chow's old patch had the words in hanji-Choy Li Fut. Go figure. Well, the kenpo I learned had gwa,cup, sow, been, and charp, so who knows? :confused:
Who knows indeed? The present inheritor plays a system that barely resembles Parker/Tracy kenpo, Mitose's clan claims theuy are the deal, Pesare/Cerio/Villari offshoots are further from the source,:rolleyes:Kajukenbo is another story entirely...
oh, one more thing-I had a training bro who was from Hawaii, and knew Chow. He said atthat time (80's) Chow was possibly suffering from dementia or alzhiemer's and was nearly destitute, and spent most of his time on the beaches collecting bottles and cans. Many of the people who claimed rank from him also were from that time. Connect those dots if ya want...

[bakxierboxer]

Groovy - I get it. Maybe a taste of the Hung, i.e. Tiger and Crane form bits, but not the essence. Is that a fair cop?

Maybe a bit more like someone saw the material in a book and was doing their "best" to "mimic" what they thought they saw.


Some of the combinations don't look much like Hung at all....

{chuckle!} That was my "major objection"!!!! :D:D:D


... they have more of southern hybrid with Karate look to me.

"hybrid (hī'brĭd) pronunciation
n.
1. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. "

Sounds kinda like they're describing a "mule"?
(IIRC, something worth noting about a REAL mule is that they are sterile....)


Some of the Karate shapes, but a southern execution, in terms of pace and fluidity.

Nah... it mostly looks like a relatively new-fangled Kenpo to me.


Keeping in mind, those are some big boys, and big boys play a little different than featherweights... or should I say skinny pip squeaks....:D:D:D

Well.... a couple of the bigger guys DID knock down some partitions and walls during an "impromptu sparring match". But, that's some of that "soft-style" Kajukenbo stuff.... nothing at all like "hard-style"....... :cool:


The story from the teacher is, it isParket Kenpo started as a "Shaolin" style, via Okinawa to Japan, to Parker in Hawaii.

I don't really see a Shaolin connection.
There was native Okinawan "Te" and apparently some SE Asian variants of Fukien White Crane had an influence.
Kanbum Uechi is also said to have gone to China and picked up some "Pong Gai Noon".... although I don't think I've ever seen a reasonable translation of that name.


Thus theoretically, it should have some of the, I'm guessing, Lohan influence?

Please be my guest at the guessing guestimation....
(will that be more like a "party" or a "competition"?)


Hung is the most easilly accessible Shaolin derivative, and I guess that explains my thinking...

I think "most widely practiced" is a better fit.
Caveat emptor: "Your access may vary."


Just for the record, I'm no expert, but I know those guys. I always liked Kenpo, being one of the more interesting American manifestations of traditinal martial arts, more flair and complexity than the Karate, Tae Kwon Do, spectrum, more traditional influence than the grapling, kickboxing spectrum.

I don't dislike it.... except maybe for the "modern" "slappy stuff".
From my experience with it, I might choose to replace the "flair" term with the word "gusto"....


I also know a guy in Albuquerque, Fred Abshere who does a totally different kind of Kenpo, called Kodusho, which goes back to Shroinji, and has a lot more soft stuff - very shaolin - buried under the hard side.

{grunt!}
(don't know anyone in Albuquerque)
"No comment!"

[bakxierboxer]

well, as one who has taught kenpo.......

Which branch/line?


(melange sounds so much better than mish-mash);)

I take it you're not using that in the "geological sense"?
{"Subduction! Tooorments mah haaart!"}
(Who IS/WAS "the REAL Ral Donner"?)


.... Pesare/Cerio/Villari offshoots are further from the source,:rolleyes:Kajukenbo is another story entirely...

Sure, although the original Kajukenbo principals in the USA had also trained with Chow before going off with Emperado....


oh, one more thing-I had a training bro who was from Hawaii, and knew Chow. He said atthat time (80's) Chow was possibly suffering from dementia or alzhiemer's and was nearly destitute, and spent most of his time on the beaches collecting bottles and cans. Many of the people who claimed rank from him also were from that time. Connect those dots if ya want...

Not the kind of dots I like to connect.....

[jdhowland]

Don't think anyone has mentioned yet that Parker also was influenced by T. Y. Wong who was one of the first to teach gung fu openly in San Francisco. Wong taught what he called "internal and external Siu Lum."

I met Mr. Parker in 1975 and at that time he was trying to distance himself from the concepts of "Willy Chow and those guys" but described his system as originating in southern China.

James Mitose claimed that his art was a family heritage but there is no proof of this. On the other hand some have claimed that he actually learned a little Ryukyu kempo from Okinawans who visited Oahu in the 1930s and gave public demonstrations. I believe this is the origin of "Kosho Ryu" and is why he tried to cover his tracks by calling his style kempo jiu-jitsu and emphasizing that it was not karate. I think this explains the Ryukyu-style basics found in Parkers kenpo (in its earlier forms), Hawaiian kenpo and even Kajukenbo.