Punching video

[IRONMONK]

Power of the three joints explained by Emin Boztepe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798

[sihing]

Good clip, lots of important points brought up by Emin:)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting, Emin should take up boxing and karate before he decides to comment on their power generation techniques.

[couch]

Interesting, Emin should take up boxing and karate before he decides to comment on their power generation techniques.

He's selling something. And, may I add, he's good at what he does.

Best,
Kenton

[sanjuro_ronin]

He's selling something. And, may I add, he's good at what he does.

Best,
Kenton

He's always been a good salesman, but that is not excuse at misinformation.
He knows his WC, but he is either ignorant of karate and boxing dynamics ( and biomechanics) or he is misleading people.
I prefer to think it as ignorance.

[guy b.]

To be honest there's a few important elements missing from this punch mechanic. I don't know if that is ignorance or intentional misleading either. What he described is an arm punch with no body behind it apart from the step. He didn't discuss the linkage. His use of midback instead of hips was odd. He didn't discuss waist. There was nothing on the power chain from foot to fist.

[SAAMAG]

Hmm.

I think Emin is a great speaker and he brings up many good points about WT punching. His WT style punches look very effective too. Everyone I've spoken to that has worked with him directly speak very highly of his ability to generate power.

I do agree however, that the notion that karate or boxing punches don't offer as much in terms of power is a farce. I've studied all three styles mentioned: TKD/Karate, Boxing/MT, and WC/WT.

Of the three, in my personal development I believe my strongest punches are from boxing / muay thai. To me, a punch's power should come from the "ground", and be rooted using total body mechanics. Meaning that the power line would be reinforced by the ground, travelling up through the leg, hips, waist, back, shoulder, elbow, and wrist.

That being said...there are many ways to generate power. Some are better than others and the main determinant would be which method is more effective for YOU.

I can feel power development in my karate style punches, boxing punches, and wing tsun punches. Simple test though: go punch a solid and dense object--like a 200-300lb punching bag--try all three types of punches and see which one gives you the best result. Make sure to wrap your wrist if you're not used to punching anything solid.

Have a nice day.

[guy b.]

He may be able to generate it but he isn't describing any detailed body method on this clip. He's talking about an arm punch. If you copy what he's saying here you will be focused on piston like action from the elbow with maybe a step. That is just the tail end of the punch. The important bit is how to get the body into it.

I see in the clip he sometimes does move the body more, difficult to say how well, but he doesn't discuss what he's doing or how to do it.

[sihing]

You know I personally don't think that the WC/VT punches are the "most" (there's that word again) powerful punch around. And I don't think that is the point of the art, to make one the most powerful. The idea I get behind the WC/VT, and the idea I get behind what Emin is trying to say, is that the punch has power and can effectively be used in a self protection situation, and it is also very ellusive, non telegraphic which makes it an effective strike. Power is of course needed when striking, otherwise you have nothing, but it is not the only element needed to be effective when using it for real. Timing, and the setup of the motion is also important. What I like about the WC/VT punch is that is requires little set up and can also be done within confined spaces (like in a crowded place or while backed into a corner), or while close in on your opponent, this is not to say that it is the best punch or most powerful punch in Martial Arts. I think it is wise if we erase those words from the Martial Arts dictionary as one doesn't have to be the best or most effective to have useful skills. It's not about fighting the best of the best in the world, it's about getting out alive when you need it the most.

James

[sihing]

He may be able to generate it but he isn't describing any detailed body method on this clip. He's talking about an arm punch. If you copy what he's saying here you will be focused on piston like action from the elbow with maybe a step. That is just the tail end of the punch. The important bit is how to get the body into it.

I see in the clip he sometimes does move the body more, difficult to say how well, but he doesn't discuss what he's doing or how to do it.

I have another vid where he talks about using the entire joint structure (ankle, knee, hip, shoulder/spine, elbow and wrist). In his opinion he says one can use all 6 points to generate power in a strike, to contrast this other prominent Sifu's say one can only use 3 points simultaneously. The only thing I don't agree with what Emin does is he is very sideways with the opponent when he strikes with his lead arm, his facing is way off, but I'm sure with his skills/power that is the least of his worries:)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know I personally don't think that the WC/VT punches are the "most" (there's that word again) powerful punch around. And I don't think that is the point of the art, to make one the most powerful. The idea I get behind the WC/VT, and the idea I get behind what Emin is trying to say, is that the punch has power and can effectively be used in a self protection situation, and it is also very ellusive, non telegraphic which makes it an effective strike. Power is of course needed when striking, otherwise you have nothing, but it is not the only element needed to be effective when using it for real. Timing, and the setup of the motion is also important. What I like about the WC/VT punch is that is requires little set up and can also be done within confined spaces (like in a crowded place or while backed into a corner), or while close in on your opponent, this is not to say that it is the best punch or most powerful punch in Martial Arts. I think it is wise if we erase those words from the Martial Arts dictionary as one doesn't have to be the best or most effective to have useful skills. It's not about fighting the best of the best in the world, it's about getting out alive when you need it the most.

James

I agree that the WC/WT punch is ideal for what it was designed to do.
Emin should focus on that and not on trying to downplay other striking styles and modes of generating power.
If what you have to "sell" is good, you don't need to point out the "flaws" in the "competition"

[sihing]

I agree that the WC/WT punch is ideal for what it was designed to do.
Emin should focus on that and not on trying to downplay other striking styles and modes of generating power.
If what you have to "sell" is good, you don't need to point out the "flaws" in the "competition"

I totally agree, the product will sell itself, the idea of comparing against other systems, and showing them as inferior in comparison, should not happen:)

[guy b.]

Do you have a link for the other clip?

[sihing]

Do you have a link for the other clip?

Nope sorry, it's on one of his Lat sau vid's that I found, its full length not a clip. I think this clip is only part of the explaination of what his idea's are on WT punching, not the whole thing.

J

[monji112000]

He knows his WC

thats debatable.:) Am I the only one who sees what he is doing as pushing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats debatable.:) Am I the only one who sees what he is doing as pushing?

Yes and I did say HIS WC.

[TenTigers]

watch his body, and his hips and dan-tien. FCTT(foa/chum,teaw/tun=Float.sink,spit/swallow) all the way.
the snapping of the elbow is not the punch he is using. He is using Southern Siu-Lum principles-which, btw take a long time to ingrain, and not the quick fix

[monji112000]

Yes and I did say HIS WC.
OK.

Since we are talking about WC punching.. here is a great clip of the iceman punching almost identical to how I throw one of my punches. I'll look for rampage doing the same.. its the one were they measure his impact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU64CwmYc&feature=related

rampage punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX_3K_xE

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK.

Since we are talking about WC punching.. here is a great clip of the iceman punching almost identical to how I throw one of my punches. I'll look for rampage doing the same.. its the one were they measure his impact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU6...eature=related

rampage punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX...eature=related

Links lack chi ;)

[monji112000]

Links lack chi ;)

just eat your beans.;) thats all the chi you need. I fixed the links.

[punchdrunk]

i like liddels strikes as well, and a simple heavy bag test shows the power from the weight shift and arm unity is far superior to any piston punching. i just train to keep my arms more in front of me instead of dropping outside the line as far as chuck seems to. i feel that this is the power that battle or pole punches are supposed to teach and train, to throw the punches using your body and not just your triceps. you cant really do the pole with just your tris and one of the movements specifically teaches the fixed arm thrust of the gwan. its not hard to translate that to punching and makes more sense than using a pole as a barbell!

[Liddel]

The Iceaman is known for his heavy hands. But i dont see it as being that condusive to VT based on his elbow position. I do feel we should take note of the elbow hip relationship, how one helps the other, and the angles he punches at.

The negitives of wide punching actions have been highlighted several times, the pinnicle of which IMO was against Rampage, although that was made worse by throwing a body shot when you shouldnt....:rolleyes: ( i lost money on that fight :()

I think for VT people to learn form someone like that we should look at the body movement and how it adds power. Most of the movement from what ive seen from his teaching vids is not only for power reasons but also for changing angles that guys expect, moving his body to trick them into thinking a punch is comming one way when in fact its on another path.

Personally i like the Emin clip although i realise this is just half the story. Im all to sick of seeing Chunners use the chain/running punch arms only like its right out of SLT.

My Sifu from the time i finished learning SLT told me we require waist and horse movement to really make it powerful. SLT is training arm mechanics for the punch in isolation !

I always turn the horse and or shoulders during a flurry of chain punches.

On another note, one should also recognise the diffference in punching between that of VT and other arts. My VT punch can be heavy sure, but it utilises more of a sharp attack than a heavy one. Perhaps thats just me. This is achived by the hinge movements of the elbow and wrist and made solid by the momentum of the body. Which seems to be absent in the emin clip, which is why i think we're getting half a clip (if you will) its an exert of a discussion.


DREW

[monji112000]

The Iceaman is known for his heavy hands. But i dont see it as being that condusive to VT based on his elbow position. I do feel we should take note of the elbow hip relationship, how one helps the other, and the angles he punches at.

I follow you, and I agree to a point. The point being that I have learned a few different types of punches. A few of them revolve around the straight punch. That could be turning the horse, or using a arrow punch (similar to a boxers lead or straight lead as Bruce Lee calls it). I have also learned hooks and uppercuts. The basic body movement and power generation is very similar two those two fighters punches. I'm not saying everything is the same, only that its similar and its nice to compare/contrast.



The negitives of wide punching actions have been highlighted several times, the pinnicle of which IMO was against Rampage, although that was made worse by throwing a body shot when you shouldnt....:rolleyes: ( i lost money on that fight :() yah me too. :(


Personally i like the Emin clip although i realise this is just half the story. Im all to sick of seeing Chunners use the chain/running punch arms only like its right out of SLT.

I thought you would, and I am trying not to be negative. I realize the basic idea is present... but its not applied in a realistic manner. Thats just my opinion, and I'm not looking to go back and forth. Allot of people use the vertical punch/palm. The basic mechanics are really not that complicated. I'm not in anyway downing the punch, only the application. Emin is a big guy, I'm sure he is really tough too.
I believe strongly that the power doesn't alone revolve around just the hand motion that Emin shows. (I realize he says he uses the spine too).

If your going to use the straight punch you must have a combined effort. (setup, body motion, follow up). Just a basic example... Someone throw a jab/cross.. I slip/sidestep/pak and punch. I can follow up with whatever.. but the basic idea is a whole picture. In the example I gave the punch is basically nothing.. but it serves a purpose. I'm sure other people do similar things, but to just stand and punch... pretending your going to knock people across the room with only your arm strength... its misleading at best.

JMO your welcome to shoot me for it.

Brian

[Liddel]

Nah, were on the same page, no need to c o c k the glock :D

No horse no kung fu, a punch without body movement of some kind is friendly play....:)

I encorporate hooks as well, i already have uppercuts from my VT and lets be honest Rampage, Liddell and Silva are some of the best and my fav strikers. So theres much to be gained from watching them....

My comment about his elbow position not being condusive to VT is not necessarily about power generation but more about the whole idea of bridgework and followup punches.

Take a Pak Da application.

When i use Pak Sao and a straight punch, my punch following Pak is covering the opponents elbow or forearm making it harder for them to control further movement, they have to take thier arm back because my arm has dominant position on top :rolleyes:

IMO - If i were to change my elbow position id have to change other attributes to make up for this lack of positional control.

So im not advocating Ving Tsun purity LOL just pointing out that at least for me when i alter actions or assimilate other styles techs i have to conciously think about what it adds and takes away from my existing game.

Consequently i use hooks etc in other areas of my game... :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just like Rampage said, its all about the ass !

[monji112000]

Nah, were on the same page, no need to c o c k the glock :D
:D

I think I come off the wrong way sometimes, even though I'm not trying to be harsh.
If you meet me in person, you will find out I'm a really easy going guy. :p

[couch]

I think I come off the wrong way sometimes, even though I'm not trying to be harsh.
If you meet me in person, you will find out I'm a really easy going guy. :p

I think this is true of many people on this forum. Text really sucks sometimes.

[Liddel]

Just like Rampage said, its all about the ass !

LOL :p

He's such a funny dude, His comments after the Hendo fight cracked me up....

Has anyone seen the clip of him hiding in a basket and prank ambushing another fighter walking by ?

Funny stuff for a Bad man :o

DREW

[KPM]

To be honest there's a few important elements missing from this punch mechanic. I don't know if that is ignorance or intentional misleading either. What he described is an arm punch with no body behind it apart from the step. He didn't discuss the linkage. His use of midback instead of hips was odd. He didn't discuss waist. There was nothing on the power chain from foot to fist.

I agree with Guy. Emin seemed to be saying that his way of punching is better than karate or boxing BECAUSE they rely on the hips, while he steps in and uses his whole body. Well, I've got news for him. Boxers and karate guys also step in and use the body WHILE using the hips. He didn't show or discuss the use of the waist/kwa. Without the step he is essentially doing just an arm punch and missing the linkage that involves the whole body as Guy says. You can stand still without moving the feet and still punch with the whole body! His method seems to rely more on stepping through the opponent than it does on actual impact. Therefore, as someone else pointed out, it tends to have a strong "push" element to it.