View Full Version : Big Trouble in China
Samurai Jack
03-19-2008, 03:32 AM
Hello all,
It's been a while since I posted, but since no one seems to have started a discussion...
Does anyone have any thoughts on the situation in Tibet? Apparently there are worldwide protests going on right now, including riots in Chicago, New York, and Washington D.C.
How can this have crept under the KFM radar?
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?go=homepage&scope=all&tab=all&q=tibet&Search=Search
http://search.cnn.com/search?query=tibet&type=news&sortBy=date&intl=false
http://www.ibnlive.com/cfs/blog/50552/1741
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080044410
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awtzpAu5Bcoc&refer=home
http://www.bangkokpost.com/sportsplus/sportsplus.php?id=126606
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2008/gb20080317_321446.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index _global+business
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i-t77IHZlz4Vx0jFsTF34m_N8EUw
http://www.agi.it/world/news/200803181856-cro-ren0079-art.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL1863047320080318
David Jamieson
03-19-2008, 05:07 AM
I have heard that the Dalai Lama is threatening to resign as the chief of state of the tibetan government in exile.
Samurai Jack
03-19-2008, 05:26 AM
Yes, according to what I've read, he refuses to act as the leader of a violent movement:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/world/asia/19dalai.html?em&ex=1206072000&en=9aef12767d74186b&ei=5087%0A
However, it's important to note that it is at this point unclear who is perpetrating the violence. China has claimed 13 dead at the hands of rioters, while independant reporters have claimed 100 or more "peaceful protestors" were slain by police. Unfortunately, unbiased reports are unlikely, because China has forcibly ejected foreign journalists from Lhasa.
bodhitree
03-19-2008, 05:36 AM
soaring economy may be grounded:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/ChinasLoomingOlympicsDisaster.aspx
from what I heard;
meaning confirmation required.
with olympics coming
some gas/bomb incident increased in tibet?
1. PLA surrounded 3 key cities in tibet or tightening securities.
2. some exile tibetans in india migrating back to tibet despite of india objection.
--
:eek::confused::(
on the political gestures/signs;
if violences unchecked or out of control in tibet;
security issue for oncoming olympic games for athletes and families will be a great concern for all and not just for chinese governments
--
:(
people are praying for people in tibet.
another real threat to bei jing olympics is actually sand storms.
the yellow sand from the yellow earth high plains (huang tu gao yuan) will blow all the way to bei jing.
--
unrest in tibet was really challenging Hu Jin Tao and Wen Jia Bao.
the 4th gen of CPC or CCP leaders;
Mao-> Deng-> Jiang -> Hu/Wen
Hu actually once a leader/ruled in tibet for sometime. Now Hu is the leader of China.
Hu/Wen or China is challenged with inflation and many economic issues this year and on ward.
Olympics is only a gesture that China remains open to the rest of the world.
since the door was opened by President Nixon in the late 1970's.
"people in one world may have many different dreams"
however, "one world one dream" would be for all athletes to compete for the highest honor on the planet.
let us hope, let olympics games free of political wrestling.
let sports be sports.
--
even if it is a money losing venture for hosting the games.
Chinese governments would still do it.
it is true by hosting games that many local people have to suffer fewer resources for drinking water, electricities, and other public utilities, such as phonelines, buses, restaurants, etc
a mighty old capital since mongolian Yuan, it was called Yan Jing.
Ming moved the capital to nan jing, it was called jin ling.
Qing moved back to bei jing.
ROC moved to nan jing.
PRC moved back to bei jing.
anyway, an old capital is hosting the games this year.
I guess we have to say welcome to all visitors.
:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVU-B4Jw8F0&feature=related
in Hu's new year address;
he mentioned that PRC will continue to seek peaceful unification with Taiwan (my main concern in his talk)
he also mentioned 2008 will mark the 30th anniversary of opening China since 1978.
--
in the end, he said China will welcome all visitors to the olympics and paralympics games.
just cited his speech as quotes.
diego
03-19-2008, 10:00 PM
SPJ, is it true some villagers are starving in China?.
BoulderDawg
03-19-2008, 11:15 PM
I've had chances to go to China in the last few years and I got can't bring myself to go. I will not support the economy of a country with such severe human right violations........and they talk about Cuba!:confused:
Anyway the Chinese need to clear out of Tibet right now. Let the rightful government take it place in Tibet.
Olympics:
I'm against a boycott because it penalizes the athele. However it I was there I would participate in my sport....but I would not be in the opening or closing ceremonies.
firepalm
03-20-2008, 01:01 AM
This is a tough issue & a tragic one but China did not invade another country & take it over as in Tibet. Tibet has been a part of China for over a thousand years, not only 50 years like Richard Gere, celebrity pawn, would have you believe. For a very short time in the early 1900s the Brits controlled Tibet and did many bad things to the Tibetan people. Tibetans have long been considered one of China's 56 Ethnic Minority groups. China is not an innocent in this by any means but what the media in the West is not showing is the violent actions being done by Tibetans to tourists, Chinese, Hui Muslim people, etc... One of the beauties of Youtube right now is the ability to get more info then just the propaganda filtered crap that goes out on CNN.
True Tibetan History http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fruuxoDQpSc ; a great eye opening little radio interview with supportive pictures on Tibet & the Dalai Lama.
CIA in Tibet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY Your US Gov't at work in Tibet
The truth of free Tibet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtTmBrfujsA a very compelling video
Free Tibet! The real truth! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=L6XD5A7-Fqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySbjQpzEII
Riot in Tibet: True face of western media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
OPPRESSED MONKS IN TIBET http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ctrPH4ehR0
In the very least it gives you something to think about. But then again maybe it's just another job for the US World Police F>>K YEH! :rolleyes:
sanjuro_ronin
03-20-2008, 04:23 AM
FYI:
Big Trouble in Little China was the greatest movie ever made !!
"Have you paid your dues jack?"
" Yes sir, the check is in the mail !"
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FoWskUO_U&feature=related
a song about jiu zhai gou, northern si chuan.
many tibetans lived in many nearby provinces.
I luv the tibetan culture, buddhism, people and the land.
except that the migrating people do not take a bath or shower for a long time if ever.
:eek:;):D:)
Shaolinlueb
03-20-2008, 07:35 AM
people should mind their own business and let the tibetans handle this. :o
what a **** I am huh? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1Ssvk-anw&feature=related
a religious song.
:)
sanjuro_ronin
03-20-2008, 08:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yM3-YO7qHs
:D
YES,
SHE ALSO HAS GOOD VOICE.
off topic somewhat'
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/341YL2Sk5JM/
Zhang Yi Mou director of the movie "hero".
he is directing the opening ceremony of 2008 olympics in bei jing.
:)
Zhang and everyone involved signed confidentiality agreements with IOC.
I guess we all have to wait till august to see.
there are 4 sections
1. opening.
2. artistic performance.
3. athletes entering.
4. lighting the torch.
--
according to survey, Chinese audience do not want to see Tai chi, miniskirt qi pao showing thighs, no giant red lantern--
a lot of chinese criticized the 8 min closing in athens 2004.
it was also directed by Zhang Yi Mou.
Zhang said he had tough choices to pick elements of chinese culture that westerners may know and appreciate.
with so many inputs from everyone, Zhang was really burdened with 2008 opening and closing ceremonies.
--
He said in the interview, he will use and show elements of chinese culture but the main theme is still to show how chinese people are doing in this land and in the current period of time.
--
we are all looking forward to it.
:)
off topic;
when I was a little kid,
I like kids choir.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-JAZQJWcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duwklfM7Qg8&feature=related
--
when I was a teen.
I like teenager singers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCvX-6x4A8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eGHPCOqr7s
--
when I was in college,
then I started to enjoy adult songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ONH3hIjO3c
--
I guess that there is time for everything.
:D
http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white3.html
PLA "entered " tibet in 1959. It has been 49 years.
last big uprising was around 1988. It has been 20 years.
---
the recent worldwide uprisings are from younger generation demanding total independence.
Da lai La Ma in exile hopes for a higher autonomy within China.
chinese papers blaming him for engaging separatist activities all these years in exile.
all the governments in the world hope for a peaceful resolution from all sides.
maybe a dialogue between Da lai la ma and Hu.
--
:(
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-20-taiwan_N.htm?csp=34
Taiwan will elect a new president in a few days.
Tibetans in Taiwan also pray for peace.
--
:(
BruceSteveRoy
03-21-2008, 07:44 AM
FYI:
Big Trouble in Little China was the greatest movie ever made !!
"Have you paid your dues jack?"
" Yes sir, the check is in the mail !"
:D
agreed, and if i agree it must be so.
Black Jack II
03-21-2008, 07:47 AM
I am not sure how this suprises anyone. China is a nasty little communist country and is full of vice.
Anyone read about the "Great Leap Forward" in their history.
Shaolin87
03-21-2008, 10:42 AM
Although I kindof agree that the Kung-Fu board should be used for kung-fu instead of CNN like headlines, I think its good that this discussion was brought up.
Although there have been many problems with China (IE. there human rights and all) its good that someone actually posted an unbiased view(A NON-RICHARD GERE view :p), of what the Tibetans are doing, and how they are antagonizing these events.
Anyways this should just blow over pretty soon. Although the police are still stationed in the areas (for the better/worse). Kinda seems like it has, but we cant really tell with the whole confusion of media.
:)
unkokusai
03-21-2008, 06:10 PM
I am not sure how this suprises anyone. China is a nasty little communist country and is full of vice.
It can be nasty at times, but it sure ain't little.
There is an underground students newsnetwork in China, so this isn't from the Communist party. There is evidently a Tibetan man who planted a bomb in Cheng Du. The Tibetan quarter is sealed off and there are lots of military police everywhere. Even with the hoopla, China is still one of the safest place I have ever lived.
Something to keep in mind is that before communism Tibet had slaves and many people were servants or starving. For the most part, they like the free infrastructure and public education. They like getting educated on their own history in their own language. They like the minority scholarships to Chinese universites and they like the health care. They like the tourist industry form the rest of China that enabled them to buy luxury condos in Cheng Du. Don't believe the hype, some Tibetans have Ipods and luxury cars. Some have high level government positions. Under the old system a large number of people lcould only look forward to being monks or slaves. The present D. (Llama) is under some dispute. They guy they have in now also has legitimate lineage from before the Qing dynasty.
The wealthy Tibetans who left are trying to restore their power base as overlords. They get hippy donations. Just as the IRA got Irish American donations.
I am not one to cast judgement on his holiness the d (Llama), but it is of course a posiblity that he is not unlike European popes of the past. Religious eaders of the past have also been known to have the same duality as the rest of us.
It has also been said that China offered him a puppet position in Tibet to milk hippies and pilgrims of cash, however, he demanded much of Sichuan and other areas who have Tibetan minorities. This is simliar to Mexico asking for Texas, Colorado and Californa because these states have Mexicans. Its not going to happen.
I think Buddhists terrorism can't be that new. Shaolin has some pretty neat weapons.
This post makes as much sense as the the one that said former President Nixon opened the door to China in the late '70s:rolleyes: When does he think Presidents Ford and Carter served:p
Anyway, I saw a bunch of poor, very poor Tibetan kids going through the trash for food on the same street as the Chinese kids with their school uniforms walking home from school. I don't know when you were in Tibet, and I surely not saying I know what is going on there.
Henry Kissinger visited China (flied in) from Pakistan.
the agreement was to formerly recognise PRC in exchange of stopping aiding north vietnam and viet cong.
end of vietnam conflict and troops go home.
Henry Kissinger shook hand with Zhou en lai first then Nixon with Mao.
the recoginisiton came later.
Nixon resigned due to watergate.
Ford assumed presidency and pardoned Nixon, and continue withdrawing US troops from vietnam.
Carter sealed the deal.
A lot Taiwan people dun like Carter. He also had failed strike in rescueing hostages in Iran.
Iran crisis resolved only after Reagan came to power.
---
Yes. Ford and Carter only continued the policy that was laid out by Nixon.
For people that did live thru the periods and reading about the stories on newspaper, books, radios, Tv like everyday.
--
:D
Shaolinlueb
03-22-2008, 09:15 AM
people say they cant support china and such because of the human rights violations.
how different is this from what we did to the indians? we committed genocide on them, whiped out/almost whiped out species of animals. if you cant support a country that does that, move to canada.
the tibetan's aren't all innocent. someone posted up most were slaves or poor, which is true. China has tried to work with them.
do some research before believeing all that hippy movement crap.
free tibet so the country can f itself more.
B-Rad
03-22-2008, 11:45 AM
how different is this from what we did to the indians? we committed genocide on them, whiped out/almost whiped out species of animals. if you cant support a country that does that, move to canada.
Our ancestors committed genocide, so we should support other countries that do the same? That's pretty disgusting attitude.
Iran crisis resolved only after Reagan came to power.
---
For people that did live thru the periods and reading about the stories on newspaper, books, radios, Tv like everyday.
--
:D
The Iranians released the hostages when Carter left office,maybe it was the day after? Reagan hadn't anything to do with it they just did it as a final insult to Carter. It was sorta like the WMD of its day, everyone gave credit to Reagan and he didn't correct it, it gave way to the Iranians were scared of him and that was why they were released. I thought that too :o But they screwed up by releasing them while still having Iranian money in our banks:p I think they were buying military planes etc. and had paid for that too before the Shaw (sp?)was forced out.:D
Many people still think Iraq had WMD and transferred them to Syria although Saddam couldn't get his millions out, remember the money stuffed into trees?, couldn't get his daughters out, couldn't get his sons out and couldn't get his stinkin butt out of the dirt hole but he was clever enough to get ALL the WMD out from under our noses?:rolleyes:
WinterPalm
03-22-2008, 02:20 PM
The only way to free Tibet is to bomb the infrastructure, send in a 150,000 armed force and give them democracy. If that doesn't work we must stay the course until it does...ie gold fish hitting the glass with its nose over and over and over again.
BlueTravesty
03-22-2008, 05:10 PM
This is a tough issue & a tragic one but China did not invade another country & take it over as in Tibet. Tibet has been a part of China for over a thousand years, not only 50 years like Richard Gere, celebrity pawn, would have you believe. For a very short time in the early 1900s the Brits controlled Tibet and did many bad things to the Tibetan people. Tibetans have long been considered one of China's 56 Ethnic Minority groups. China is not an innocent in this by any means but what the media in the West is not showing is the violent actions being done by Tibetans to tourists, Chinese, Hui Muslim people, etc... One of the beauties of Youtube right now is the ability to get more info then just the propaganda filtered crap that goes out on CNN.
True Tibetan History http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fruuxoDQpSc ; a great eye opening little radio interview with supportive pictures on Tibet & the Dalai Lama.
CIA in Tibet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY Your US Gov't at work in Tibet
The truth of free Tibet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtTmBrfujsA a very compelling video
Free Tibet! The real truth! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=L6XD5A7-Fqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySbjQpzEII
Riot in Tibet: True face of western media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
OPPRESSED MONKS IN TIBET http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ctrPH4ehR0
In the very least it gives you something to think about. But then again maybe it's just another job for the US World Police F>>K YEH! :rolleyes:
perhaps someday the U.S. will consider Canadians one of the U.S.'s "Ethnic minority" groups :D
personally, I like president Carter,
from being a peanut farmer to the white house.
well I like farmers.
even thou US prestige was marred by Iran revolution and hostage crisis.
--
Tibetan and Han chinese shared the same DNA or genetic makeup.
the high grounds of himalaya are origins of both yellow river and yang tz river.
the tibetan people on the high grounds doing migrating agriculture. han people on the mid and down streams of the 2 rivers doing stationary agriculture.
the same rivers nurture 2 great cultures of 2 ethnic groups.
--
tibet is the middle of russian moslem republics, india (used to be british india) and china.
--
if not in the enclave of China, it would have been part of india or russia.
--
2 other examples
1. poland between germany and russia.
2. korea between china and japan.
--
it is only based on the theory of geopolitics.
--
:D
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=15&entry_id=25015
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/22/taiwan.elections/index.html
Taiwan has elected a new president.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUaxrnNMS3k&NR=1
a KMT theme song with 4 dialects.
mandarin, ha ka, arborgine, taiwanese (amoy)
we all come together and live peacefully together on this precious little land/island, no matter what ethnic backgrounds you are.
--
:)
BlueTravesty
03-22-2008, 07:11 PM
how different is this from what we did to the indians? we committed genocide on them, whiped out/almost whiped out species of animals. if you cant support a country that does that, move to canada.
Not to derail this thread, but the fact that Canadians call them "First Nations" instead of "Natives" or "Indians" makes the conquest of THEIR country by persons long dead somehow less severe than ours? You do realize that those who colonized Canada took territory by less-than-friendly means, right? It wasn't quite as severe, but then again, that's one of the advantages of trying to take over a sparsely-populated region to make it slightly more populated.
unkokusai
03-22-2008, 09:09 PM
Funny thing, I keep seeing ethinic Han Chinese on various sites screaming that "Tibet is part of China!"
But no Tibetans making that claim. Quite the contrary.
BoulderDawg
03-22-2008, 09:24 PM
I guess Texas has always been part of Mexico. And to be honest I wouldn't mind at all if we gave it back.
Anyway, I've had an opportunity to go to China and I simply don't want to. Let them give back Tobet and improve human rights and I'll consdier going.
Olympics? I think the US should go but only participate in the events. They should boycott the opening and closing ceremonies.
Funny thing, I keep seeing ethinic Han Chinese on various sites screaming that "Tibet is part of China!"
But no Tibetans making that claim. Quite the contrary.
you tube vid sites are invaded by both camps.
all the chinese or tibetan themes/vids music.
check out all the comments.
--
:eek:
unkokusai
03-22-2008, 10:35 PM
Oh, I've heard all the arguments.
unkokusai
03-22-2008, 10:37 PM
Anyway, I've had an opportunity to go to China and I simply don't want to. Let them give back Tobet and improve human rights and I'll consdier going.
That'll show 'em!
SanHeChuan
03-22-2008, 11:04 PM
I guess Texas has always been part of Mexico. And to be honest I wouldn't mind at all if we gave it back.
They would get California, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, and New Mexico back before they ever got TEXAS. :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge5SEPvRUtI&NR=1
news.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo&feature=related
a commentary vid.
I agreed to some points but not all the points.
it is totally no good to tell other countries what to do.
if you are proposing other countries leave your home affair alone.
--
anyhoo.
it was one of the most watched and commented.
not to stir up a pot that is already boiling. (meaning not needed)
--
peace y'all.
:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVPlT9GWF_g&feature=related
Jet Li and his view.
tsunami turned him to budhhism.
--
:)
Samurai Jack
03-23-2008, 11:51 AM
As a side note, China has blocked youtube to it's citizens, so where are all of those comments you see from supposed Chinese citizens who claim to be living in the country coming from?
firepalm
03-23-2008, 12:58 PM
perhaps someday the U.S. will consider Canadians one of the U.S.'s "Ethnic minority" groups :D
Well with the pending North American Union, RFID Chip / V Chip and the Amero I have the feeling we'll all be ****genized...... That is those of us that make it out of the FEMA camps..... :cool:
about the vid.
some of the comments are good and most of them are not.
personally,
each country will have many ethnics or majority and many minorites.
as the country grows bigger, it will include more and more people with different cultures and religious backgrounds.
PRC started out with communist troops in northern China.
they grew bigger at the end of wwii.
however, commie did not have good footing in the north west and south west which are populated with minorites that cover huge area of gobi deserts, green plains and high grounds of himalayas.
it was very difficult to get into.
there were a lot of negociations, the troops in new territories of xin jiang surrendered. the leaders switched sides from supporting ROC to PRC.
tibet was unique, too. there were also miao and qiang or jiang minorities etc.
--
cultural revolution was bad all over China, not just in tibet.
--
the question for everyone would be how to get along with one another in peace.
Han may bring a lot of capitals and technologies.
tibet provides huge natural resources and strategical high grounds or roof of the world, that overlooking india subcontinent, middle east and central moslem asia.
--
little countries will always be swayed by bigger countries, such as india, russia and china etc.
like it or not, tibet was always closed to china thruout history.
Tang's princess wen cheng married to the tibetan king, there were Tang's 3000 or 5000 young girl servants went along, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Wencheng
--
at the time, europe was still in dark age. I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_age
--
do not blame the west or west media.
take care of things responsibly and peacefully.
both tibetan and han people have been living and trading with one another long before any western countries/powers even exist.
--
:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXmdKWVirUA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoMJ2B3v1iU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3t0uMdPT6g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTs6HnSqHmo&feature=related
4 noble truths.
warning:
the vid's last more than a hour.
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEJ11aIv7aQ&feature=related
discovery channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I2bvs3uZ4c&feature=related
national geographic.
BlueTravesty
03-23-2008, 07:05 PM
Funny thing, I keep seeing ethinic Han Chinese on various sites screaming that "Tibet is part of China!"
But no Tibetans making that claim. Quite the contrary.
With the AMAZING similarities between Han Chinese and Tibetan culture, why, it's a shocker that the Tibetans just don't see that they've been part of China all this time. It's like a slice of Bologna and a Bright Orange Hunting Vest. You look at them side by side, and you just can't tell the difference!
What I'm wondering is why they're so doggedly determined to hold on to Tibet. After all, quite a bit of Vietnam was once "considered" part of China. I'm no student of history, so I'll just speculate on how that happened.
China: Good morning, Vietnam. You're part of our country because of a few cultural similarities.
Vietnam: Yeah, whatever. We've got constant political turmoil because of the French colonists and poverty is rampant, you SURE you want some of this?
China: Good point. Well, carry on then. Good luck with the French.
vietnam was part of yuan (mongolian) china.
Qing did go to war with the french.
French navy blockaded taiwan straights.
Qing won the war on the land.
however, the emperor signed treaty with the french.
and "ceded" vietnam to the french, it became french indochina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-French_War
China or central plains are north of yellow river, that was where everything started since yellow emperor.
southern china, and southwest china were considered barbarian tribes and states.
there are many satellites states from korea all the way down around to afganstan.
these states were considered brotherly or subjugated states.
whenever, there were invasions of these satellites, china will go to war,
with the idea of the closeness of the teeth and the lips. the lips are gone, the teeth would be next.
that was why when Japan came, Qing went to war and lost. Korea became Japanese colony.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
when the french came, Qing went to war, too, only to "give" vietnam away.
--
Samurai Jack
03-25-2008, 06:03 AM
As of today, 140 protesters have been killed by soldiers in the ongoing struggle, and media blackouts continue. The Chinese government has officially begun a malware campaign against public message boards and reporting agencies nationally that support Tibetan protestors (watch out KFM).
http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/5700701/Tibetan-government-in-exile-says-140-killed
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2212635/malware-writers-aim-pro-tibet
Meanwhile, Australia and France leveled "harsh criticism" against the Chinese handling of the political unrest, but stopped short of encouraging a boycott of the Olympic games.
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/news/stories/200803/s2198996.htm?tab=latest
Also, Venezuela's president Hugo Chavez claims the U.S. is "inciting disent" among tibetans in order to weaken China (strangely at odds with the fact that the U.S. media is hardly reporting on the Tibet situation, and U.S. politicians have uniformly declined to comment).
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/25/sports/LA-SPT-OLY-Beijing-Tibet-Chavez.php
And in the most ominous twist yet, ethnic Tibetans are being herded into ghettos today in Sichuan today in an effort to exert even tighter controls over possible protests being staged in tandem with the torch lighting ceremony in Greece.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3617551.ece
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/25/MNDCVPN51.DTL&feed=rss.sports
from what I heard;
there will be protest gathering every where the torch goes;
In San Franciso, Chinese embassy had been thrown 2 incindiary objects.
there will be a huge protest gathering when the torch reaches SF.
--
most people and governments hope, the protesting crowds will be peaceful everywhere.
their purpose is to embarass chinese government,
but be careful enough not to hurt the spirits and process of olympics.
in short, not to hold "hostage" of the olympic games itself.
--
:(
whenever, there is ethnic tension, or any major event natural or man made.
yes, Chinese government will seal off news reporting first.
and then tightening securities.
---
:(
the "unrest" in tibet since march 14th is "officially" over.
they are letting TV reporters from Taiwan, Hong Kong and other countries to enter tibet for the first time.
Lhasa is opened to the public, again.
Hundreds of people died and others arrested.
the securities are still tight in tibet, yun nan and si chuan.
--
the paper called it the march 14 th incident or 3.14 "incident".
--
peaceful protests around olympic torch will continue.
--
Samurai Jack
03-26-2008, 11:03 PM
Not sure where you heard it's "officially over." This news just yesterday in the New York Times:
On Tuesday, protesters and the police clashed in Garze, a prefecture of Sichuan, state media and a Tibetan rights group said. Some 200 monks and nuns began a march earlier in the day that turned violent when the police sought to suppress the crowd, the India-based Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy said.
China’s Xinhua news agency said the police opened fire in self-defense after the demonstrators attacked them with knives and stones. The rights group said one 18-year-old monk was killed and another was critically injured, while Xinhua said protesters killed one policeman.
And the PRC has not "let in" the foriegn media, they are escorting foreign journalists on carefully crafted tours, hoping that they'll be dumb enough to believe the spin. According to the AP, USA Today, and the WAll Street Journal, we're not buying it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-26-tibet_N.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120653962238265391.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h5Z6bJwtN_roGSIUQiQnfbf2NkhgD8VL5OPO0
In further news, China has blocked an effort by Australian Diplomats to visit Tibet, French Foreign Affairs officials recieve criticism for not taking a stronger stance against China; and subsequently open talks concerning an Olymipics boycott, and good ol' George W. Bush ain't about to give up his tickets to the games 'cause "athletes would be disappointed."
I'm sure they'd be crushed, Mr. President.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/china-blocks-tibet-visit-by-diplomats/2008/03/26/1206207206689.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL26383126
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=d0415f44-d6d6-47c6-b39f-9a84c8322530&ParentID=3d51b69b-2e4c-43d4-8566-7b1cad5da556&MatchID1=4678&TeamID1=6&TeamID2=3&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1179&PrimaryID=4678&Headline='Olympics+about+athletes%2c+not+politics'
Drake
03-26-2008, 11:11 PM
Hypocrisy. We still use Chinese products, and I don't see any mass boycotss of that. We'll protest, but not to the state that it becomes uncomfortable.
firepalm
03-27-2008, 12:52 AM
And the PRC has not "let in" the foriegn media, they are escorting foreign journalists on carefully crafted tours, hoping that they'll be dumb enough to believe the spin. According to the AP, USA Today, and the WAll Street Journal, we're not buying it.
'Carefully crafted tours', well at least they (China) aren't quietly selling out their own country like Bush & Harper have done along with Mexico and the North American media hardly speaks of it. Well Tibet is nice distraction in the very least (maybe even brought to you by the CIA) and in the meanwhile the CNN media doesn't even have to spin anything about the SPP & the pending North American Union (aka NAU).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4axRYJymHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccxQRaLIOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q5eTXBOUP4
Boycott China how about looking into what your own Gov't (mine included) are doing to all of us under our own noses while CNN distracts you with Tibet & Richard Gere (not to mention trival wastes of time like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, etc...). Tibet & boycotting China should be the least of your worries! The slavery of the past that the Tibetan Lamas imposed on their own people will in the very least provide an outline for labour practices here in the new NAU.
WAKE UP THE F C U K UP!
Drake
03-27-2008, 01:04 AM
'Carefully crafted tours', well at least they (China) aren't quietly selling out their own country like Bush & Harper have done along with Mexico and the North American media hardly speaks of it. Well Tibet is nice distraction in the very least (maybe even brought to you by the CIA) and in the meanwhile the CNN media doesn't even have to spin anything about the SPP & the pending North American Union (aka NAU).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4axRYJymHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccxQRaLIOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q5eTXBOUP4
Boycott China how about looking into what your own Gov't (mine included) are doing to all of us under our own noses while CNN distracts you with Tibet & Richard Gere (not to mention trival wastes of time like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, etc...). Tibet & boycotting China should be the least of your worries! The slavery of the past that the Tibetan Lamas imposed on their own people will in the very least provide an outline for labour practices here in the new NAU.
WAKE UP THE F C U K UP!
Wait...what's going on with Richard Gere?? I thought he did a great job in Hunting Party.
Samurai Jack
03-27-2008, 02:46 AM
Perhaps not carefully crafted enough:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3630653.ece
some hear say and comments;
1. Lhasa is the most "watched" or "guarded" city in China.
there are agents and counter agents everywhere or under cover police, inside and out side of the temple.
soldiers of PLA outnumber local residents.
2. the temple is holy ground for pilgrims. it is sacred for local people, IT IS NOT A TOURIST attraction. non believers no need to visit.
on the other hand, Shao Lin is showcased and tourists welcome.
3. We may read all the medias. however, we have to form or reserve our conclusions.
a. the brave monks shouting and risking arraignment.
and yes, the shouting may relieve the idea that da lai la ma being the mastermind behind the recent "incident".
it is worth a "try".
b. recent chinese media blaming da lai la ma for the incident. it is to pressure him to exert his influence to pacify or quiet local people. Chinese does not have evidence to link him to the incident.
in short, some times we see things but things may have meanings beyond their appearances.
c. each government will "show" its response but falling short of boycotting the games. it is to pressure Chinese to resolve the incident peacefully, b/c we are watching closely.
d. everyone is reading or watching Chinese affairs, most of us are aware of the tibetant people cause since 1950.
I have many relatives from Yun Nan. I am familiar with tibetan, miao, bai yi etc. I luv the culture, the people and the land.--
however, politics is always politics.
it is a never ending story. no matter what structure or society, there will always be a group of people in power, and others under rule or "oppressed".
e. Cultural revolution, it was not only against old culture of China and tibet.
it was a class struggle. farmers, workers, and soldiers leading the society, the capitalists, the rich, land owners, -- have to be ruled by them,
f. 30 years of reforms and opening doors.
teachers are respected again and earn a higher salary. confuscious birthday is honored, --
in contrast to closure of college, teachers go to country side and learn farming, the students do whatever except going to class (red guards) from 1966-1976.
--
for me, the welfare of most of the people would be our primary concern and not those of the few or "privillaged".
the world is for all the people and not just a few.
Tian Xia Wei Gong.
Tian Xia Wei Tian Xia Ren Zhi Tian Xia.
--
in short I am against the political leaders/party that worry about their power and not the welfare of the people.
whatever it is best for most of the people, I am for it.
oops, it is the concept of democrasy.
--
end of rants.
:D
David Jamieson
03-27-2008, 08:13 AM
Let me put it this way.
Canada faced insurrection from Quebec in the 1970's with the FLQ crisis and a militant separatist group. there was a kidnapping and a murder and finally, the most liberal of all liberal leaders ever P.E Trudeau declared Martial Law, sent the army in and stopped the separatists.
is Canada like China and Tibet in that respect? You bet, and that's why we still have an issue with separatists today in Canada who want an independent and sovereign Quebec. Since that time, we've had what are called referendums on the matter, we've had a huge outpouring of Anglophiles from Quebec in the 80's and businesses moved away from Quebec in Droves at the time. there was violence, there was murder, there was soldiers in the street. i remember it quite clearly.
We still have a united country and Quebec is part of Canada and I am happy that this is so because despite the cultural differences in Quebec, I consider them Canadian and absolutely necessary to the defining of this Country as what it is.
Does that make me evil? To some Quebecois, it sure does. I can live with that.
China is a huge country, it has huge issues and the looks we give it on this matter are hardly glances. In our well practiced hypocrisy, we forget that we have filth and stains on our own countries records that we should probably deal with before taking up the vague causes of militant outsiders that are more than likely funded by groups who have an interest in the further political blemishing of a given government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t04ZN9vUyjs&feature=related
a song about the railway linking Qing Hai to Tibet.
it is called the road of the heaven or tian lu.
it is sang by Basang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Q4rfMI3h8&feature=related
a song about the qing hai/tibet plateau.
it is also by Basang.
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ytRaua17I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNqK2Btilwk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcsVUVNCFm8&feature=related
the railway was originally planned by Dr. Sun Yet Sen.
the founding father of the republic.
the idea about the republic of China was founded on the peace and harmony among five major ethnics (han, manchurian, mongolian, moslems and tibetans) and many and many minorites living and prospering together.
---
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onB7pIT4mKo&feature=related
:(
golden arhat
03-27-2008, 08:10 PM
would ANYONE want to own tibet ?
look at the place
its just mountains its not like its vital to china is it
of all the countries you would want to annexe
why tibet ?
with inflation, and both housing price and stock market soared in China in 2007.
the government is trying to "manage" or "regulate" economy.
the GPD growth rate will slow down to around 10% this year.
with the rise of ren ming bi, China export to US is slowing down.
--
olympic games should be de politicised.
Zhang Yi Mou's idea of artistic performance (about 57 min program) in the opening ceremony.
He said it would involve over 10,000 people.
it would show how Chinese people come and live together over 5000 years,
how we are all the same or one together.
not just the Chinese but the whole world is like a one big family.
we are all the same, etc etc.
--
5000 years of history, wow, that is a lot to cover in a hour.
--
we shall see.
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq1wt8nOYAg
a very good documentary about gui lin.
directed by Zhang.
:)
would ANYONE want to own tibet ?
look at the place
its just mountains its not like its vital to china is it
of all the countries you would want to annexe
why tibet ?
tibet and china are together since yuan (mongolian) dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Dynasty
ming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Dynasty
qing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_Dynasty
ROC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_China
then PRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
--
sanjuro_ronin
03-28-2008, 05:12 AM
What has the fall of the Soviet Union taught us?
Was it sanctions and military threats that brought down the "iron curtain"?
No.
Tibet just needs to bide its time and appeal to the Masses and eventually and quite painlessly, they will get what they want.
An old chinese proverb:
If you live long enough, you will see the bodies of your enemies float down the river.
Or somethign liek that.
Has China ever been forced to do anything?
This will just come back to bite Tibet on the butt.
Smarter move is to allow China to get closer and closer to the international market and when the inevitable changes happen, take advantage of them then.
yes politics is like the wind or tide, it comes and goes.
--
yes, when the soviet bloc became dissipated in 1989.
Chinese securities were tightened, they called it su dong po.
to prevent the wave/tide from the east/soviet.
su is short for soviet.
dong is east.
po is wave.
sure enough, that was the last big uprising in tibet 20 years ago.
--
today the wind blows east, tommorrow the wind may blow west.
-
yes, more and more autonomy and democrasy or political freedoms will come for people in China.
--
GeneChing
03-28-2008, 10:28 AM
The biggest reason for China is a matter of national pride - of face, if you will. To China, face is everything. This is what makes this controversy absolutely fascinating. China was looking forward to the Olympics as an unprecedented way to show face. Instead, China is showing its ass. It's such a complicated issue.
Beyond the historic need to keep Tibet as part of China, there are other theories about its strategic utility. An outstanding one is this - Tibet could be the highest nuclear launch pad in the world. Of course, after Reagan introduced SDI (Star Wars), the altitude of a nuclear launch pad is somewhat obsolete (and China continues to develop its space program) but then again, many believe the notion of big dams is obsolete.
There is an even darker side, China's hardline, if you will. Tibet was ruled by the monastic class, and despite the compassion of the present Dalai Lama, this was by many accounts, a slavery-based society.
I'm supposed to cover the torch's visit to S.F. (the only North American stop, I think) in two weeks. There will be a martial arts demonstration as part of the festivities. It's a story that's really bigger than our publications in a way. Of course, we've supported the Beijing Olympics. I daresay we've monitored the progress of wushu as an Olympic event better than anyone in English. I'll have more for you on this later...
Samurai Jack
03-28-2008, 12:39 PM
More articles for the interested:
European Union discusses boycott. (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/EU_foreign_ministers_mull_Olympic_boycott_over_Tib et_crackdown_/articleshow/2905822.cms)
China reverses decision on foreign diplomats. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7318035.stm)
Diplomats concerned about "stage managed" tour. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/28/2201979.htm?section=australia)
Should you boycott the Olympics? (http://www.slate.com/id/2187280/?GT1=38000)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet
info from wi ki or wei qi
inflation is not only a problem in tibet.
it is all over china.
and of course the effects hit harder on poorer people in the far west of China.
--
wi ki is translated into wei qi in chinese.
wei means greatness
qi means wonder and curiosity
so wei qi means great wonders or the encyclopedia explains a lot and is contributed by great many people and articles.
;)
some other good singers.
A. qing hai/tibet plateau;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JB_WvUo7Nk&feature=related
by halama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTWgG8_Nf7U&feature=related
by suo lang wang mu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13tdyjlCnS8&feature=related
by tan wei wei
B. tian lu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xKu9pRk3sg&feature=related
by suo lang wang mu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUsD_5jgZ0&feature=related
by a lan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQbCpF_SjGE&feature=related
by han hong
:)
off topic;
a lan is also popular in Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h7gHRbo-54&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr-khxHMV64&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRnABKouYEg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWG39O58cVc&feature=related
:D;)
HardWork8
04-05-2008, 01:04 PM
Anyway, I've had an opportunity to go to China and I simply don't want to. Let them give back Tobet and improve human rights and I'll consdier going.
More or less the same thing here, I had an opportunity to go to the US and I simply don't want to. Let them give Iraq (and its oil) back and improve on human rights in Iraq, Afghanistan and inside the US itself, and I'll consider going.;)
shrub
04-05-2008, 10:18 PM
US and every country in the world recognize Tibet as part of China. Anyone saying otherwise should first convince their own government to change their position to officially recognize Tibet as an independent country and the Dalai Lama as the official political head of the government.
unkokusai
04-05-2008, 11:21 PM
I had an opportunity to go to the US and I simply don't want to.
On behalf of the United States, thank you. Stay the **** out, moron.
Let them give Iraq (and its oil) back
Back to whom, moron? (and look at all the oil we've gotten! :rolleyes: you are truly stupid)
HardWork8
04-06-2008, 12:17 AM
On behalf of the United States, thank you. Stay the **** out, moron.
Back to whom, moron? (and look at all the oil we've gotten! :rolleyes: you are truly stupid)
Oh, hello my retarded "friend". I am sorry that it took so long to answer your post. Seeing your forum name in political thread made me laugh out so hard that I needed time to recover before I could answer your post.
It seems that you are making a habit of following me from thread to thread. Somehow, you just like to have your forum a$$ kicked in various threads, don't you? Well you know what they say? Variety is the spice of life. If punishment is what you want, then punishment it will be.:D
How is it going with the repeat-reading assingnment that I gave you in the other thread?
Believe you me, if you keep reading those relatively simple statements that I posted in the other thread, again and again, you will eventually understand them. Such as the "basement statement", remember? Oh, you don't, then don't worry, retards were never known for their memory skills. Just ask the nice gentleman who helps you with your typing and wipes the drool from your mouth, to find the thread for you.
Now, once your spastic brain finds a way around those simple statements, then I will try and explain to you why oil and not the so called Democracy, is so important in US, and Western foreign policy in general.
I know that understanding things seems an impossible task, but you must do as you are told and help me to help you with that mental problem of yours.
However, be aware that I am not blaming you, afterall you didn't chose to be born a retard, it is all that inbreeding in your family,you see. So personally, I blame your mama and her brother, your papa.
So, be a nice retard and run along do your repeat reading homework. As always, don't forget to wipe off the drool around your mouth. Do let me know how you get along.
Remember that once you understand the simple statements in the other thread, then I will explain the politics of oil.
I do however have the feeling that by the time you undertand the simple posts, (some time in the middle of the next century), oil will have less significance in the world of politics than it has now, as probably by that time, the planet would have ran out of this fuel.
Your Champ, :D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-06-2008, 01:47 AM
That's great, Basement Boy. Keep making a fool of yourself. Your technique of smearing **** all over yourself then pointing and saying "Ha ha! look at you!" is really working for you. Keep it up Champ, you're doing fine.
And in case you were wondering; yes, everyone can see just how ignorant you are on this, as with every other topic. :rolleyes:
golden arhat
04-06-2008, 04:07 AM
Oh, hello my retarded "friend". I am sorry that it took so long to answer your post. Seeing your forum name in political thread made me laugh out so hard that I needed time to recover before I could answer your post.
It seems that you are making a habit of following me from thread to thread. Somehow, you just like to have your forum a$$ kicked in various threads, don't you? Well you know what they say? Variety is the spice of life. If punishment is what you want, then punishment it will be.:D
How is it going with the repeat-reading assingnment that I gave you in the other thread?
Believe you me, if you keep reading those relatively simple statements that I posted in the other thread, again and again, you will eventually understand them. Such as the "basement statement", remember? Oh, you don't, then don't worry, retards were never known for their memory skills. Just ask the nice gentleman who helps you with your typing and wipes the drool from your mouth, to find the thread for you.
Now, once your spastic brain finds a way around those simple statements, then I will try and explain to you why oil and not the so called Democracy, is so important in US, and Western foreign policy in general.
I know that understanding things seems an impossible task, but you must do as you are told and help me to help you with that mental problem of yours.
However, be aware that I am not blaming you, afterall you didn't chose to be born a retard, it is all that inbreeding in your family,you see. So personally, I blame your mama and her brother, your papa.
So, be a nice retard and run along do your repeat reading homework. As always, don't forget to wipe off the drool around your mouth. Do let me know how you get along.
Remember that once you understand the simple statements in the other thread, then I will explain the politics of oil.
I do however have the feeling that by the time you undertand the simple posts, (some time in the middle of the next century), oil will have less significance in the world of politics than it has now, as probably by that time, the planet would have ran out of this fuel.
Your Champ, :D
Hardwork8
**** i dont like unkokusai much
but i gotta say that thats the biggest load of ****e ive heard
and the worst anyone has ever done while trying to be condescending
it actually makes me cringe
and you call him retarded
i mean
wow
just wow man
wow
HardWork8
04-06-2008, 04:20 AM
Keep it up Champ, you're doing fine.
Unkokusai my dear, is that a twinkle of intelligence that I see? There may yet be hope for you my little retard.;)
And in case you were wondering; yes, everyone can see just how ignorant you are on this, as with every other topic. :rolleyes:
By everyone, you mean people who don't practice kung fu, but drop in the KUNG FU forums with their wisdom and criticisms. Who end up getting their forum butts kicked. Reminds me of you somehow.;)
Anyway, enough with your break, go back and read my initial statements from the other thread and keep repeating. Remember, if you want to treat your retartedness you need a lot of Hard Work. Best of luck!
Your Champ,
Hardwork8
PS. Give my regards to the nice man in the mental institute who wipes your drool and reads and posts your texts. And a special salute to your parents. ;)
HardWork8
04-06-2008, 04:24 AM
**** i dont like unkokusai much
but i gotta say that thats the biggest load of ****e ive heard
and the worst anyone has ever done while trying to be condescending
it actually makes me cringe
and you call him retarded
i mean
wow
just wow man
wow
Unkokusai , the forum retard, keeps following me around in different threads and must see me as his "forum enemy" or something. I guess that he just wants attention and me being a nice guy, I am giving it to him.:D
If you care, why don't you look around the forums and check his posts addressed to me. If you don't care, then please don't make remarks aimed at someone you don't know in favor of someone else that you don't seem to know nor like.:rolleyes:
golden arhat
04-06-2008, 04:29 AM
when did i state that i didnt know him out of interest ???
i dont but thats not the point
i said i dont like him much, he's a bit of an ass
but you are something else
HardWork8
04-06-2008, 04:41 AM
when did i state that i didnt know him out of interest ???
Sorry, I misread your post, Sheesh, Unkokusai has got me doing it now..lol Anyway, I have edited it.
i dont but thats not the point
It is the point. He uses empty attacks to get attention, he probably leads a very lonely existance. So, I am being "nice" and giving it him the attention that he so desires.
i said i dont like him much, he's a bit of an ass
A "bit" of an ass? I believe that is an understatement.
The point is that he has been trying to be a bit of an ass with me for a relatively long time. You will see, if you check.
but you are something else
Again, you are trying to offend without knowing the full story.
Anyway, sometimes it is best to fight fire with fire.
tibetan independence movement started when PLA entered tibet in 1950.
--
da lai la ma said, the recent unrest is an internal affair of china between han and tibetan people, and nothing to do with the western government.
--
the chinese paper started to blame an organization "tibetan youth society" or zhan qing hui.
it was formed by a younger generation since 1970.
--
http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/orl-tibet0708apr06,1,2060236.story
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-china-tibet,1,2816139.story
news about olympic torch carried thru tibet or not.
big beauties/actresses from china.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZkg8RLcTDs
I like he mei tian.
my kids like liu yi fei.
my bro--
both li bing bing and liu yi fei casted in the coming movie "forbidden kingdom" in april.
some clips from the movie;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agyUFtXN0WU
a ferocious tiger against a quick and agile mantis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWrcpowXnSM
snake no match for eagle claws, use crane beak/wing, ouch ou ou ah ah stop, --
show respect for your teacher. I laughed so hard--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVlfDbRZ9qg&feature=user
a drunkard against 3 swords soldier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbs3vTxOVTY&NR=1
the whip and a piece of long white cloth grabbing the monkey king staff
three prongs--, double hooks from liu yi fei-- wow some many diverse weapons of old times.
--
back to regular programs about chinese politics and ethnic strifes and tensions of 2008
:D
I meant once we are done with the tax filing.
my bro's and I will go to see the movie and have laughs and fun.
:D:);)
--
back to main topic.
:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdcmKY2YBFM&feature=related
a tibetan herding (sheep/horse) song.
the song that made suo lang wang mu famous.
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OBQfCEia4&feature=related
a new movie.
song by suo lang wang mu.
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQSq83TwChY&feature=related
a movie that depicts a young generation perplexed and caught between traditional culture and modern living.
recommend to see.
:)
unkokusai
04-06-2008, 12:49 PM
Sorry, I misread your post, Sheesh, Unkokusai has got me doing it now..lol Anyway, I have edited it.
It is the point. He uses empty attacks to get attention, he probably leads a very lonely existance. So, I am being "nice" and giving it him the attention that he so desires.
A "bit" of an ass? I believe that is an understatement.
The point is that he has been trying to be a bit of an ass with me for a relatively long time. You will see, if you check.
Again, you are trying to offend without knowing the full story.
Anyway, sometimes it is best to fight fire with fire.
LOL! Careful there, Basement-Boy, you'll hurt yourself fumbling around and tripping over yourself like that. Don't want to be 'unpopular' now, do you?
If you'd just stop being such a D-bag poseur you wouldn't have to work so hard.
golden arhat
04-06-2008, 03:33 PM
this reminds me of the life of brian,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
just replace "romans" with "chinese"
HardWork8
04-07-2008, 05:20 AM
LOL! Careful there, Basement-Boy, you'll hurt yourself fumbling around and tripping over yourself like that. Don't want to be 'unpopular' now, do you?
If you'd just stop being such a D-bag poseur you wouldn't have to work so hard.
Is that tears that I see in your eyes? lol. Now be a good retard and go back to your repeat reading assignment.
Your Champ,:D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 05:38 AM
Keep goin' Basement-Boy, you're doing fine. :rolleyes:
Samurai Jack
04-07-2008, 05:38 AM
Chinese human rights activist draws 3 1/2 year sentence, U.S. denounces:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23936549?GT1=43001
Olympic Commitee President calls for "rapid, peaceful resolution in Tibet.":
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gknD9pf1jJxdndPjMuDTKP2Mekww
Protestors charge Olympic torch bearer in London:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080407.BRITAIN07/TPStory/TPInternational/Europe/
David Jamieson
04-07-2008, 05:41 AM
Just to interject for a moment, I believe it is I who wear the sobriquet of 'basement boy'.
I believe I got this moniker from someone who used to post here. I think he meant to insult me, but I kinda like it.
so don't even try to steal my nickname of basement boy.
You may have:
"boy in his moms basement"
"pale mommas boy in the basement"
"gimp in the basement"
or other variations of same, but 'basement boy' is mine mofos!
now, back to your incessant clammering.
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 05:43 AM
Yeah, its looking like this whole thing could backfire and end up a huge loss of face for China, which would NOT go over well with the boys in Beijing.
On the other hand, the pro-Tibetan interests know an opportunity when they see one.
sanjuro_ronin
04-07-2008, 05:48 AM
Yeah, its looking like this whole thing could backfire and end up a huge loss of face for China, which would NOT go over well with the boys in Beijing.
On the other hand, the pro-Tibetan interests know an opportunity when they see one.
And if China losses "face", how will this work to the benefit of Tibet?
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 05:49 AM
Just to interject for a moment, I believe it is I who wear the sobriquet of 'basement boy'.
I believe I got this moniker from someone who used to post here. I think he meant to insult me, but I kinda like it.
so don't even try to steal my nickname of basement boy.
You may have:
"boy in his moms basement"
"pale mommas boy in the basement"
"gimp in the basement"
or other variations of same, but 'basement boy' is mine mofos!
now, back to your incessant clammering.
Good info. Well, the B-B in question here has been trying to pass himself off as the greatest kung-fu master of all time because he took a brief vacation in Brasil (kungfu capital of the world, to be sure) and now 'trains' all by himself down in his basement. The basic issue was that he was trying to tell folks with far more experience in Wing Chun that he knew better than they, and was just being an idiot and an ******* generally.
So what name do you recommend? (and 'Unkokusai' is already taken, so forget it!)
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 05:57 AM
And if China losses "face", how will this work to the benefit of Tibet?
Probably not too well...
...but then it has not been going too well for 60 years or so
sanjuro_ronin
04-07-2008, 06:09 AM
Probably not too well...
...but then it has not been going too well for 60 years or so
I agree, nevertheless, one must thing of the repercussions.
China doesn't strike me as the type to take a "olympic black eye" with a nice desposition.
I think that Tibet's "strategic" play may come back to bite it on the ass.
Would probably have been better to play on China's 'openess" and be patient.
Many former Soviet states "won" their independence after the fall of the USSR and the USSR fell because it had to, not because of politcal pressure, but because it was in its best interest to fall.
And the same thing, in a different way, holds true with China.
It knows that it is in its best interest to be more open and the Tibet issue is NOT in its best interest.
HardWork8
04-07-2008, 01:04 PM
Good info. Well, the B-B in question here has been trying to pass himself off as the greatest kung-fu master of all time because he took a brief vacation in Brasil (kungfu capital of the world, to be sure) and now 'trains' all by himself down in his basement. The basic issue was that he was trying to tell folks with far more experience in Wing Chun that he knew better than they, and was just being an idiot and an ******* generally.
So what name do you recommend? (and 'Unkokusai' is already taken, so forget it!)
Dear Retard,
Would you kindly provide a link (a real link) to any of my posts where I state that I am "the greatest master of all time", so that everyone will see. You can't can you, my little retard?
You can't and that is because generations of interbreeding in your family has produced a spastic retard who is not able to understand simple posts and harbors a lot of negative feelings for those of superior intellect, who in your case include the rest of the world.
So you end up making untrue comments about a poster, who in this case, and unlike you, practices kung fu. Which brings me to my next question, which I have asked before,but which your retarded brain has not absorbed and hence not answered and that is, what a "rasslin" retard doing posting in kung fu forums?
That is why I keep giving you your repeat reading assignments to train your "brain" to understand simple points. Here are the points again, to make it easy for your spastic brain to understand:
1. I started practicing Siu Lam Wing Chun in Brasil and did so under personal/private instruction for three and half years.
2. Since I left Brasil for London, I continue practice Wing Chun on my own. Things like the forms, combinations and iron palm, etc. It is possible to train these on your own, unless you are a retard. See what I mean?;)
I still go to Brasil sometimes and when I do, then I practice and brush up techniques with sifu. Actually, he is coming to London soon for a seminar which means more practice for me.
3. On top of that I practice a none wing chun style of kung fu in a traditional school here in London, 3 times a week and 3 hours each time.
4. I don't have a basement.:D
You seem to have some kind of a fixation with basements, did the brother and sister who are your parents lock you in basement when you were young, to hide you from the neighbors? Which brings me to my next question and that is, how the hell did your family manage to have a basement in Trailer Park? Or did they just remove a manhole cover and hide you in the sewage? This would sure explain why you stink up every thread that you enter.;)
So, there you have it. The four points that are in your assignment. Please read carefully, not forgetting to wipe the drool off your mouth at regular intervals, while I go and laugh my head off on the thought a retard like you posting on a political thread LOL.
Your Champ:D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 04:44 PM
1. I started practicing Siu Lam Wing Chun in Brasil and did so under personal/private instruction for three and half years.
2. Since I left Brasil for London, I continue 'practice' Wing Chun on my own.
As I said... :rolleyes:
HardWork8
04-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Dear Retard,
You are kind of economical with the truth aren't you? You have made some fraudulent claims about me and we are going to need some proof, even if it hurts your forum butt.
Here are a couple of statements that your spastic brain missed, but then it would wouldn't it?
First, the request:
Would you kindly provide a link (a real link) to any of my posts where I state that I am "the greatest master of all time", so that everyone will see. You can't, can you, my little retard?
Secondly, the question:
...which I have asked before,but which your retarded brain has not absorbed and hence not answered and that is, what is a "rasslin" retard doing posting in kung fu forums?
And then, the facts (you can look up what "facts" mean in a dictionary and while you are checking that, have a look at what is meant by "fighting". See, I am trying to help you across threads.:D)
Here are points 3 and 4, which your retarded brain, also conveniently missed:
3.On top of that I practice a none wing chun style of kung fu in a traditional school here in London, 3 times a week and 3 hours each time
4. I don't have a basement.:D
Now, as always, wipe off your drool (and the ever increasing tears)and start reading those two points and keep repeating until your retarded brain absorbs the facts.
Don't forget that we are still waiting for the links regarding my alleged claims.
I am sorry (not really), to do this to you, but the simple fact is that you deserve it.
Your Champ:D
Hardwork8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1pR1L0KM40
a beautiful lake.
the background music
is a buddhist chanting
Om Mani Padme Hum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE&feature=related
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_epJMNPB47I&feature=related
a trip to the highest lake on earth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L6H72CbWio&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nniThSa5fz8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OKukg-GcU&feature=related
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJt3cPeI-V8&feature=related
chanting with images of shao lin monks.
I particularly like the pic of drunkar boxing and a monk standing on a staff (monkey staff).
:)
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 09:58 PM
You are kind of economical with the truth aren't you?
You are doing great, Basement-Boy. Keep it up, Champ. :rolleyes:
Samurai Jack
04-07-2008, 10:48 PM
More of the latest:
Hundreds fired upon by military forces in Western China:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/eight+killed+in+tibet+riot/1947452
San Franciscan protestors scale Golden gate Bridge:
http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=7036
Olympic torch extinguished in Paris, relay cancelled:
http://www.homesworldwide.co.uk/europe/france/news/articles/paris_cancels_olympic_torch_relay?news_id=0067400
Canadian Parliament considers boycotting Olympic Games:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080407/beijing_boycott_080407/20080407?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Furious Chinese officials call lists of protestors killed by security forces "fake":
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23499503-38196,00.html
unkokusai
04-07-2008, 10:57 PM
The Tibetan people, to the best of my knowledge, are none too fond of the Han Chinese or the 'communist' government in general.
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 05:18 AM
Dear Retard,
Since repeating facts to your spastic brain, is the order of the day, I am still requesting the following info regarding your fraudulent comments:
Would you kindly provide a link (a real link) to any of my posts where I state that I am "the greatest master of all time", so that everyone will see. You can't can you, my little retard?
what is a "rasslin" retard doing posting in kung fu forums?
Here are points 3 and 4, which your retarded brain conveniently missed:
3. On top of that I practice a none wing chun style of kung fu in a traditional school here in London, 3 times a week and 3 hours each time.
4. I don't have a basement.:D
The fact is that you were making FRAUDULENT statements about me and wether you like it or not, I HAVE CAUGHT YOU OUT and while you are pretending to be "intelligente" with your "political posts", deep inside you know that I have got you by the balls. :D
So until you provide PROOF for your defammatory remarks, it is going to be GAME, SET and MATCH to me, but then, that was always going to be result.:cool::D.
Now, go back and repeat-read the statements and ANSWER the questions.
By the way, the quantity of your tears are beginning to surpass the quantity of your drooling. I suppose that is because of the building pressure on your genitals, you know, that is a very effective kung fu technique, don't you? Oh, you don't don't worry, just stick to repeat reading simple statements, ok?:cool:
Your Champ:D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 06:14 AM
Your act is really getting old, Champ. :rolleyes:
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 06:18 AM
Your act is really getting old, Champ. :rolleyes:
I have trained long enough to, unlike you, spell the name of my art correctly.;)
Can't provide proof eh? You go further and further showing what a dishonest and fraudulent character you are. Soooooooooo,
GAME, SET AND MATCH to me.:D
Your Champ:D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 10:17 AM
I have trained long enough
...all by yourself down in the basement...
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 10:20 AM
Anyway, it is telling that there are so many Han Chinese talking about how Tibet is an indivisible part of China, but virtually no Tibetans saying the same.
and yet both tibetan and han chanting the same bodhisavaa lotus chant.
or 6 characters of greater understanding liu zhi da ming
or 6 characters of great truth liu zhi cheng yan.
which are
Om Mani Padme Hum
it is from sankrit
so they sound the same both in tibetan and chinese.
:eek::D;)
golden arhat
04-08-2008, 04:23 PM
...all by yourself down in the basement...
so thats what theyre calling beating off these days
haha
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 05:32 PM
so thats what theyre calling beating off these days
haha
Maybe that is what he went to Brasil to 'master!'
:D
cjurakpt
04-08-2008, 07:11 PM
worst case scenario, a major crackdown during the games, lots of dead Tibetans and China looses face big time; however, at the same time, I don't know if there will be any real economic repercussions;
and BTW, HardWork8 needs to get his hand off unko's testicles and try rubbing his own a bit, it may help relieve some of that apparently pent up tension...
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 11:10 PM
so thats what theyre calling beating off these days
haha
That is it help him to make a bigger fool out of himself.LOL. You were wondering why I was being so nasty to our retarded and apparently, somewhat suprisingly so, "politically conscious" spastic.
He made false and fraudulent statements about me and has not managed to prove them. What he has done is hide behind stupid and empty statements. You somehow missed that?
And if I ever find out that you are the one who wipes off his retard drool and reads and posts his comments for him, I am going to feel very upset.:D
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 11:14 PM
That's it Basement-Boy, keep up the act even after the music has stopped and everyone is trying not to pay attention so you will just go away.
Doing great, Champ.
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 11:15 PM
Maybe that is what he went to Brasil to 'master!'
:D
I'll leave the mastery of "beating off" to lonely lying retards like yourself.
You can't take losing can you? You poor spastic.
Anyway, you seem to get just enough attention here in the forums to make your lonely world more bearable.
By the way, it is still not too late to provide proof of my alleged comments. Oh, you can't provide any proof, because you were lying? That is ok my dear inbred, trailer park retard, just don't let it happen again.:D
Your Eternal Champ:D
Hardwork8
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 11:22 PM
That's it Basement-Boy, keep up the act even after the music has stopped and everyone is trying not to pay attention so you will just go away.
Doing great, Champ.
That is funny, I seem to be getting more attention from you then I ever did.
Yes, that is it go away, you are showing them that Unkokusai's comments were fraudulent and he can't prove any of it, please don't make the forum retard look any worse than he ever was......ha,ha.
You can of course, provide the proof of my alleged comments, but you can't you can you? You spastic inbred retard.
Your Eternal Champ:D
Hardwork8
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 11:35 PM
and BTW, HardWork8 needs to get his hand off unko's testicles and try rubbing his own a bit, it may help relieve some of that apparently pent up tension...
I have a couple of ladies doing that to me already:D, but don't tell Unkokusai, the lonely retard, he may get jealous. He lives in a lonely world, where his drool and his right hand are his only company.
Fortunately for him he can come into the kung fu forums and make fraudulent and retarded comments about other forum members and attract much needed attention towards himself.
On a serious note, just to inform you, the retard has made some untrue statements about me. Statements that he cannot prove. You can see this in the previous posts. I am just making him "pay" for his fraudulent ways. In real life he would have his a$$ sued or in some parts of the world have his head blown off.
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 11:36 PM
Yeah...hey...good, good stuff, Basement-Boy...really... :rolleyes:
You sure are clever, Champ. Keep goin'...
HardWork8
04-08-2008, 11:55 PM
Yeah...hey...good, good stuff,
Again, that twinkle of intelligence behind those retarded eyes...
You sure are clever, Champ. Keep goin'...
Of course I am clever, I showed you up for the lying retard that you are:D
The next time that you attend one of those Spastics Anonymous meetings, please make sure that you inform them of your little problem with making untrue statements about people you don't know.
On my side and following part of cjurakpt's advice I am going to release the pressure on your balls, because I suspect that you have come to enjoy it too much. I didn't realize how lonely a spastic you were.
Your Eternal Champ:D
Hardwork8
unkokusai
04-08-2008, 11:58 PM
More quality material from Basement-Boy... :rolleyes:
Just keeps gettin' better and better really.... *yawn*
So very, very clever..............................ZZZZzzzzzzzz.. ..
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:01 AM
God... SHUT UP.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 12:02 AM
So anyway, if Basement-Boy will STFU and go play with himself somewhere (honing those great skills he learned in Brasil)...
The Olympic flame has arrived in San Fran and is likely to encounter more political 'heat' there. It will be interesting to see if any countries actually go so far as to boycot the games entirely. Huge potential loss of face for China in all this.
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 12:05 AM
More quality material from Basement-Boy... :rolleyes:
Just keeps gettin' better and better really.... *yawn*
So very, very clever..............................ZZZZzzzzzzzz.. ..
Take Drake's advice.;)
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 12:13 AM
So, has anyone else spoken with Tibetans and/or Han Chinese about this issue? Wonder if anyone has found any different reactions than the obvious ones.
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:28 AM
I meant both of you. You both are derailing the thread. Take it to PMs or something.
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:30 AM
There are always two sides to every story. I think both the Chinese and the Tibetans both have two different parts of the reality of what's going on.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 12:32 AM
There are always two sides to every story. I think both the Chinese and the Tibetans both have two different parts of the reality of what's going on.
Ok, so what's your take?
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:40 AM
Ok, so what's your take?
My take is to reserve judgment until I know for sure the situation over there. Seeing as it's not on my agenda to travel there or even engage in any degree of research, my opinions will stay neutral for a while. If anything, I feel bad for the common person over there, who just wants to live their life in peace.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 12:45 AM
My take is to reserve judgment until I know for sure the situation over there. Seeing as it's not on my agenda to travel there or even engage in any degree of research, my opinions will stay neutral for a while. If anything, I feel bad for the common person over there, who just wants to live their life in peace.
I dunno man, that answer sounds like sort of a cop-out. As far as you understand the situation now, what is your take?
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:53 AM
I dunno man, that answer sounds like sort of a cop-out. As far as you understand the situation now, what is your take?
Basically, the media is all about Tibet being oppressed and China is all about Tibet being thrown into anarchy by self-serving people trying to undermine the Olympics. The actions being taken here will not "free" Tibet by any means. It's only going to make the Olympics a nightmare to execute. I think there needs to be frank and honest dialogue mediated by a third party. Only problem is I don't see the Chinese government being willing to do that. I reall don't have a personal opinion on who is right here, because, like I said before, I don't know enough about what's really going on here. Too many people are already jumping to conclusions based on emotional responses as opposed to rational, educated decisions.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 06:17 AM
In some respects, it is easy to see that Tibet in context to what is happening right now is a law and order issue and not a human rights issue. If it was human rights, then what about the people who were killed BY TIBETANs and the shops that were burned down by TIBETANs. Where are their human rights.
And if the DL was reinstated and Tibet was thrown back into it's feudalistic living with uneducated masses slaving for the elite lamas, how does that address human rights?
Free Tibet movement is not coming from DL yet he doesn't do anything about the trouble this external and often disruptive and ill informed group. This makes the point that the CIA and MI6 manipulate the DL look even stronger, even though this claim is in the early stages of revelation at this time.
However, you don't see anyone stop exporting manufacturing to China as protest. You don't see anyone stop buying Chinese goods at walmart as a form of protest. No, you see hippies shouting slogans and doping empty and meaningless fleeting things taht have no substance.
You wanna make a difference, throw everything out that you have that was made in China and refuse to buy anything that is made in China at all. That is a valid and useful form of protest.
But if your self interest and comfort outweighs the ideal you support, then you don't support that ideal at all, you merely pay it lip service.
nonsense is nonsense. It is too easy to get caught up in the meaningless crap.
If you want to do something meaningful, then the real opportunity is there. Write a letter to your CEO and tell him to stop outsourcing to China because of their flagging record on Human rights.
tell your boss that until they stop importing cheap chinese indentured slave labour goods that you are refusing to work until that is changed.
activism isn't putting a sticker on your ass or shouting your vitriol at a newscaster, it is being active and actively doing something about it.
just sayin...
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:26 AM
And if the DL was reinstated and Tibet was thrown back into it's feudalistic living with uneducated masses slaving for the elite lamas, how does that address human rights?...
So a free Tibet with Tibetan problems is the same as an occupied Tibet with Chinese problems?
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:27 AM
tell your boss that until they stop importing cheap chinese indentured slave labour goods that you are refusing to work until that is changed....
Wow. You might want to start a new thread for that little gem...
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 06:36 AM
Wow. You might want to start a new thread for that little gem...
I might, but if I expressed myself in regards to the greening of our society, outsourcing, the global economy et al and how it has more to do with the economic powerhouses and their behaviours than it has to do with political opinions and policies.... well, then that might actually cause people to think! And when people think, they might even act! And when they act, they might even do the right thing! And when they do the right thing, the powers that are will get a little perturbed!
and next thing you know, people will be posting "whatever happened to dave"
IE: I don't want to be the catalyst for change, but I also don't want to read dimwitted political rhetoric. :)
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 06:41 AM
So a free Tibet with Tibetan problems is the same as an occupied Tibet with Chinese problems?
A free or occupied Tibet is not our concern and according to our laws and policies on the matter, it really isn't our concern. according to the maps of china going back about as far as you want, Tibet IS a part of China and has been for centuries. To demand that China give it back is the same as demanding that all lands in North America be returned to the aboriginals.
i don't think that would go over well down at 1600 Pennsylvania or at 24 Sussex or at 10 Downing or anywhere else that the guns make the rules.
It's very easy to look at the inequities of others as opposed to looking at our own.
We are hypocrites for criticizing the Chinese/Tibet situation when we have mirror situations of our own.
America is occupying a foreign country right now. It is Iraq, if you gotta ask. :p
Canada still has an Indian Act on its laws and still practices a reserve system which is not mater how you slice it a form of apartheid.
Britain still makes claims of Empire and still meddles in the affairs of other countries, Heck, their sovereigns face is printed on my money! WHY?!!
again...just sayin..
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:46 AM
if I expressed myself in regards to the greening of our society, outsourcing, the global economy et al and how it has more to do with the economic powerhouses and their behaviours than it has to do with political opinions and policies.... well, then that might actually cause people to think! And when people think, they might even act! And when they act, they might even do the right thing! And when they do the right thing, the powers that are will get a little perturbed!
Or you might find out that not everyone in the world agrees with you and that "the right thing" isn't as simple as your declaring it so, and that it isn't as simple as sitting on your sofa and shouting at the politicians on TV who can't hear you.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:48 AM
A free or occupied Tibet is not our concern..
Why not? And do you apply that reasoning to every conflict in the world?
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:50 AM
according to the maps of china going back about as far as you want, Tibet IS a part of China and has been for centuries. ..
Ok, and how do you respond to Tibetans who dispute those conclusions and who point out that at various points in history the 'ownership' if it existed in any legitimate way ran in the other direction?
sanjuro_ronin
04-09-2008, 06:50 AM
I am a tad confused as to why anyone thinks that China can be pressured into "giving up" Tibet and how anyone thinks that ****ing them off about the Olympics will actually help matters.
Drake
04-09-2008, 06:50 AM
A free or occupied Tibet is not our concern and according to our laws and policies on the matter, it really isn't our concern. according to the maps of china going back about as far as you want, Tibet IS a part of China and has been for centuries. To demand that China give it back is the same as demanding that all lands in North America be returned to the aboriginals.
i don't think that would go over well down at 1600 Pennsylvania or at 24 Sussex or at 10 Downing or anywhere else that the guns make the rules.
It's very easy to look at the inequities of others as opposed to looking at our own.
We are hypocrites for criticizing the Chinese/Tibet situation when we have mirror situations of our own.
America is occupying a foreign country right now. It is Iraq, if you gotta ask. :p
Canada still has an Indian Act on its laws and still practices a reserve system which is not mater how you slice it a form of apartheid.
Britain still makes claims of Empire and still meddles in the affairs of other countries, Heck, their sovereigns face is printed on my money! WHY?!!
again...just sayin..
Actually, Iraq is sovereign. It's an operations nightmare down there now with all the coordination and whatnot. Plus, we're trying to get the Iraqis to do their job and deal with the insurgents. The occupation is over.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:52 AM
I am a tad confused as to why anyone thinks that China can be pressured into "giving up" Tibet and how anyone thinks that ****ing them off about the Olympics will actually help matters.
So, just keep quiet about it?
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 06:59 AM
Actually, Iraq is sovereign. It's an operations nightmare down there now with all the coordination and whatnot. Plus, we're trying to get the Iraqis to do their job and deal with the insurgents. The occupation is over.
Iraq is a unique situation. I wouldn't call them sovereign for so long as there is a foreign army standing on their soil. That is by definition "occupation".
the government there is a bit of a mess as well. Seeing as they aren't, weren't and don't really have the background to be a democratic nation. Heck, even democracy in the USA is changing shape all the time, I have no idea how anyone can think Iraq is a functioning democracy. Lol. They are essentially going back to tribal bickering and now there is growing support for Sadr!
won't that be an embarrassment if the people of Iraq wind up choosing a religious leader. Seeing as Sadr ain't putting down his militias without the approval of the head Ayatollah...who ain't on talking terms with the pentagon right now.
US and UK should Pull out and let things take place as they will, accept the outcome and abide by it. If America represents what they say they represent, then that is what should be done.
unkokusai- I don't think I ever held that people would agree with me wholly. I don't enter into these discussions with anything more than my opinion and point of view and I am loathe to shove it down someone elses throat, but I do believe what I believe. And there are people who share my views. Maybe more than I know or you know, maybe not. It's still my view. :)
Drake
04-09-2008, 07:04 AM
Iraq is a unique situation. I wouldn't call them sovereign for so long as there is a foreign army standing on their soil. That is by definition "occupation".
the government there is a bit of a mess as well. Seeing as they aren't, weren't and don't really have the background to be a democratic nation. Heck, even democracy in the USA is changing shape all the time, I have no idea how anyone can think Iraq is a functioning democracy. Lol. They are essentially going back to tribal bickering and now there is growing support for Sadr!
won't that be an embarrassment if the people of Iraq wind up choosing a religious leader. Seeing as Sadr ain't putting down his militias with the approval of the head Ayatollah...who ain't on talking terms with the pentagon right now.
US and UK should Pull out and let things take place as they will, accept the outcome and abide by it. If America represents what they say they represent, then that is what should be done.
unkokusai- I don't think I ever held that people would agree with me wholly. I don't enter into these discussions with anything more than my opinion and point of view and I am loathe to shove it down someone elses throat, but I do believe what I believe. And there are people who share my views. Maybe more than I know or you know, maybe not. It's still my view. :)
It's not as unique as you think. The Iraqi government can kick us out if they want. They won't though, because their Army is still trying to formulate itself. I always thought the ridiculously optimistic views of where they'd be by now would fall through, and they have. And actually, the incident in Basra set Sadr back quite a bit. Many citizens think he was " beat up", as one was quoted.
We aren't pulling out because it's contrary to a peaceful middle east. The enemy is a hateful, twisted monstrosity of Islam, and even the common citizens know these guys are butchers.
sanjuro_ronin
04-09-2008, 07:07 AM
So, just keep quiet about it?
Ninja warfare is all well and good, but I think those tabis suck.
:D
Its not a question of absolutes, you Sith, its not a case of one or the other, its a case of finding a path that will work and NOT make things worse.
How long has this conflict been going on? 100's of years?
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 07:14 AM
It's not as unique as you think. The Iraqi government can kick us out if they want. They won't though, because their Army is still trying to formulate itself. I always thought the ridiculously optimistic views of where they'd be by now would fall through, and they have. And actually, the incident in Basra set Sadr back quite a bit. Many citizens think he was " beat up", as one was quoted.
We aren't pulling out because it's contrary to a peaceful middle east. The enemy is a hateful, twisted monstrosity of Islam, and even the common citizens know these guys are butchers.
I disagree with you here Drake. The Iraq government can kick you out? This statement is not true. Nothing personal, but that is inaccurate and wrong and just obfuscation. America wouldn't be kicked out unless it was a staged kicking done on Americas terms with all legal placements in place that favour continued exportation of resources to America with favour over all others. This is hardly open or fair and is certainly not a representation of democratic process.
also. IRAQ is unique inasmuch as it is one of the few nations to be unilaterally attacked without legal sanction from a world body. Something like Poland in 1939....not exactly the same circumstances, but the attack is the same.
Western interests are "formulating" the Iraqi army and police forces, Western interests are directing the "government" of Iraq and the process of governance in Iraq, Western interests are directing pretty much everything in Iraq except he Insurgency.
I would also state that American and British Soldiers and bombs have killed more Iraqis than Iraqis have killed Iraqis. the enemy in Iraq is America. I know that's hard to accept, but with the exception of the USA and the UK politicians, most if not all the world sees it that way.
America dances around the issue as if it is some conundrum and they feign like they are dumbfounded why no one will buy there line that they are doing this for some greater good. What greater good? How is 100k+ dead citizens good for any country? how is an occupying army barricaded in your countries capital with gun barrels pointing out god for a country? How is a destroyed infrastructure good for a country? How is forcing a paradigm that is alien down their collective throats good for a country?
I am not sure what book of logic you are reading in regards to the matter, but I can't help but think it is a pentagon publication. lol
Drake
04-09-2008, 08:06 AM
I disagree with you here Drake. The Iraq government can kick you out? This statement is not true. Nothing personal, but that is inaccurate and wrong and just obfuscation. America wouldn't be kicked out unless it was a staged kicking done on Americas terms with all legal placements in place that favour continued exportation of resources to America with favour over all others. This is hardly open or fair and is certainly not a representation of democratic process.
also. IRAQ is unique inasmuch as it is one of the few nations to be unilaterally attacked without legal sanction from a world body. Something like Poland in 1939....not exactly the same circumstances, but the attack is the same.
Western interests are "formulating" the Iraqi army and police forces, Western interests are directing the "government" of Iraq and the process of governance in Iraq, Western interests are directing pretty much everything in Iraq except he Insurgency.
I would also state that American and British Soldiers and bombs have killed more Iraqis than Iraqis have killed Iraqis. the enemy in Iraq is America. I know that's hard to accept, but with the exception of the USA and the UK politicians, most if not all the world sees it that way.
America dances around the issue as if it is some conundrum and they feign like they are dumbfounded why no one will buy there line that they are doing this for some greater good. What greater good? How is 100k+ dead citizens good for any country? how is an occupying army barricaded in your countries capital with gun barrels pointing out god for a country? How is a destroyed infrastructure good for a country? How is forcing a paradigm that is alien down their collective throats good for a country?
I am not sure what book of logic you are reading in regards to the matter, but I can't help but think it is a pentagon publication. lol
On what tangible evidence can you possibly assert that any removal of American forces by Iraq would be staged? And what possible grounds do you have to assume that we've killed more Iraqis than Iraqis? This sounds like pure speculation, with no evidence or numbers to back it up to me. Am I right?
It's not a pentagon publication, and I don't think such a statement is very conducive to a logical discussion rooted in evidence and facts. Again, let's move away from rampaging assertions about how we destroyed the infrastructure, since the fact is it was ruined long before we arrived, and in fact we are the ones rebuilding it. Let's hit up the fact that the reconstruction is being hampered by car bombs, suicide bombs, and general ruination of improvements by uneducated extremists who seem to think exploding themselves in a crowded market will curry them favor.
Let's go on about the mass graves we keep finding, done up by either Saddam or any of the bloodthirsty militias, funded in part by Iran.
Maybe we can discuss the rampant corruption within the Iraqi people?
I know... perhaps we can bring up the fact that the enemy is using Mosques as shelters, knowing that we won't bust in there out of respect for them, so that they can use a religious structure to kill more innocent people.
Do we need to hit up the knowledge that Al Sadr is wanted for the crime of killing a rival cleric? Religious man? Sounds more like a politician/murderer using religion as a scapegoat.
World support? Funny, it seemed we had everyone's blessing except, say, Russia (oil deals with Saddam seemed to temper their resolve) to go in, and I've sourced the UN's blessing on taking action before. In fact, it was the UN that warned Saddam that force was quickly becoming the only option. Funny how we forget that. Now that it turns out that Saddam didn't have any WMDs in his hands (only a few hundred trucks sneaking across the Syrian border prior to invasion, plus launcher pads found trying to leave dock in the region, plus two Soldiers suffering mild nerve agent poisoning from two of the old regime's shells busting open), it seems everyone is backing away from their previous stance.
Spare me the heartstrung please for a "free" Iraq when the facts are insurmountably evident, and their politicians simultaneously condemn us yet beg us to stay. Show me your facts. Don't show me your ridiculous speculation based off of what you learned from the comfort of your home. I've been there, and I've dealt with these people. If you can't make it (because of the dangerous Americans in Baghdad), then at least swing by Kuwait and ask them what they think of us. It's sad when another country appreciates the American Soldier more than his own.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 08:20 AM
On what tangible evidence can you possibly assert that any removal of American forces by Iraq would be staged? And what possible grounds do you have to assume that we've killed more Iraqis than Iraqis? This sounds like pure speculation, with no evidence or numbers to back it up to me. Am I right?
It's not a pentagon publication, and I don't think such a statement is very conducive to a logical discussion rooted in evidence and facts. Again, let's move away from rampaging assertions about how we destroyed the infrastructure, since the fact is it was ruined long before we arrived, and in fact we are the ones rebuilding it. Let's hit up the fact that the reconstruction is being hampered by car bombs, suicide bombs, and general ruination of improvements by uneducated extremists who seem to think exploding themselves in a crowded market will curry them favor.
Let's go on about the mass graves we keep finding, done up by either Saddam or any of the bloodthirsty militias, funded in part by Iran.
Maybe we can discuss the rampant corruption within the Iraqi people?
I know... perhaps we can bring up the fact that the enemy is using Mosques as shelters, knowing that we won't bust in there out of respect for them, so that they can use a religious structure to kill more innocent people.
Do we need to hit up the knowledge that Al Sadr is wanted for the crime of killing a rival cleric? Religious man? Sounds more like a politician/murderer using religion as a scapegoat.
World support? Funny, it seemed we had everyone's blessing except, say, Russia (oil deals with Saddam seemed to temper their resolve) to go in, and I've sourced the UN's blessing on taking action before. In fact, it was the UN that warned Saddam that force was quickly becoming the only option. Funny how we forget that. Now that it turns out that Saddam didn't have any WMDs in his hands (only a few hundred trucks sneaking across the Syrian border prior to invasion, plus launcher pads found trying to leave dock in the region, plus two Soldiers suffering mild nerve agent poisoning from two of the old regime's shells busting open), it seems everyone is backing away from their previous stance.
Spare me the heartstrung please for a "free" Iraq when the facts are insurmountably evident, and their politicians simultaneously condemn us yet beg us to stay. Show me your facts. Don't show me your ridiculous speculation based off of what you learned from the comfort of your home. I've been there, and I've dealt with these people. If you can't make it (because of the dangerous Americans in Baghdad), then at least swing by Kuwait and ask them what they think of us. It's sad when another country appreciates the American Soldier more than his own.
Drake-
1.America and Great Britain invaded Iraq unilaterally
2. To this day, they have occupying forces there
3. While the pentagon may not do body counts of the enemies they kill, others do count the people who were killed and make that information available. It doesn't matter that the source of that number is not American. Being American doesn't legitimize or delegitimize information.
4.comparing '91 gulf war with Bush/Blair Government attack on Iraq after 12 years of sanctions that weakened them to the point of defenselessness and to enter that attack under a premise which has been shown to be false and in fact may have even been a contrived outright lie is non-sequitor and shouldn't enter into the arguement at all.
5. there is no record of any "blessing" as you put it. I don't know where you think that information is correct, but to this day, America, great britain and the nations they have co-erced or bribed into support of their invasion is all there is and ever was. there is still NO support from teh rest of the world and in fact, many countries are leaving America and the UK to stew in their error there.
6. You have no facts other than those you have been fed by your own media or media that favours american occupation.
the UN does not support the invasion of Iraq to this day, nor does the world community at large. the problem is with teh American administration and how they refuse to see the errors of their ways, refuse to acknowledge the global protestations and so on. Itr is a case of small minded men exercising might is right politics with the backing of an apathetic or ignorant public.
In america, the debate is about what to do, with the rest of the world it is why are you there in the first place you lying imperialitic expansionists.
dress it up however it makes you comfortable, but the fact is, America and Britain attacked by their own volition a country that was weak and defeated to begin with. They had no plan, they still have no plan and the cost is thousands of lives and civil liberties.
I think it is your argument and pioint of view that is speculative and wrong Drake. You are mired by the rhetoric you swallow that is coming from your own camp. If this angers you, well too bad. Wake up! see it for what it is.
If I hold you at gunpoint, you are not in control anymore. at an individual level or at a national level. To say Iraq is sovereign is an OUT and OUT LIE. It is not. It is an occupied nation that is under the control, directly by the American Government and the British government.
Black Jack II
04-09-2008, 08:38 AM
You have no facts other than those you have been fed by your own media or media that favours american occupation.
What this means is that the information he has is better than the information you have because you are a clumbersome American and you do not know the ways of the world.
:rolleyes:
In america, the debate is about what to do, with the rest of the world it is why are you there in the first place you lying imperialitic expansionists.
Just typical Kung Lek American hating bull****. His elitist bullsh!t never grows old nor anymore false.
You are mired by the rhetoric you swallow that is coming from your own camp. If this angers you, well too bad. Wake up! see it for what it is.
See my first response....getting the picture now:cool:
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 08:47 AM
What this means is that the information he has is better than the information you have because you are a clumbersome American and you do not know the ways of the world.
:rolleyes:
Just typical Kung Lek American hating bull****. His elitist bullsh!t never grows old nor anymore false.
See my first response....getting the picture now:cool:
I don't hate America BJ. I love America and what it stands for, however, what it stands for has not been happening nigh these last 7 or so years.
Ithink the hate is yours alone and you ahve demonstrated that here time and again with what you have to say on most any matter.
It's cool, because the picture on you was gotten long ago.
:)
Black Jack II
04-09-2008, 08:59 AM
however, what it stands for has not been happening nigh these last 7 or so years.
Again, one man's view stated as an everyman fact.
Ithink the hate is yours alone and you ahve demonstrated that here time and again with what you have to say on most any matter.
Oddly, I think the very same thing of you.
It's cool, because the picture on you was gotten long ago.
Same goes for you.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 09:04 AM
Attempting to degrade the topic to a level of personal mudslinging is not the soution BlackJack. As much as you will attempt to do so, as is your favourite method it seems.
so, having said that, what is your opinion of the China /Olympics question. Pretend I'm not even here.
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 09:40 AM
Again, let's move away from rampaging assertions about how we destroyed the infrastructure, since the fact is it was ruined long before we arrived,
Are you denying the fact that all those thousands of bombs dropped on Iraq damaged the infrastructure immensley? Weren't bridges, energy installations, homes, hospitals and even a baby food factory destroyed, for god's sake.
and in fact we are the ones rebuilding it.
And you are not doing it for free. U.S. companies are getting paid good money to rebuild what the US military has destroyed. Do you see now how this dirty game works out?
Let's hit up the fact that the reconstruction is being hampered by car bombs, suicide bombs, and general ruination of improvements by uneducated extremists who seem to think exploding themselves in a crowded market will curry them favor.
Not just uneducated extremists but also US and the UK special ops who through terrorist attacks ensure that the country stays distablised. It is called the divide and rule policy.
Let's go on about the mass graves we keep finding, done up by either Saddam or any of the bloodthirsty militias, funded in part by Iran.
History has proven that US/UK forces are as capable of filling mass graves as the next psychopathic army.
Besides, who told you that the "bloodthirsty militias" were funded in any way by Iran? Oh, wait a minute, let me guess, it was the same people who told us about the Weapons of Mass Destruction, oh that is ok then, lets go and bomb Iran now, that will show them.
Maybe we can discuss the rampant corruption within the Iraqi people?
Maybe we can discuss the rampant corruption in the US that terrorizes its citizens into paying an income tax that is illegal and unconstitutional, to pay the debt that the government owes to the Federal Reserve, a PRIVATE bank which prints and lends dollars to the US government. All this happens while the government has the right to print its own money legitimately without having to borrow from and without filling the pockets of private bankers, who are the secret shareholders of this bank.
Ah, you don't believe me, then you can enlighten yourself by watching the following documentary.
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173
I know... perhaps we can bring up the fact that the enemy is using Mosques as shelters, knowing that we won't bust in there out of respect for them, so that they can use a religious structure to kill more innocent people.
As we all know by now, the "enemy" does not hold the monopoly in the murder of innocent people.
Do we need to hit up the knowledge that Al Sadr is wanted for the crime of killing a rival cleric? Religious man? Sounds more like a politician/murderer using religion as a scapegoat.
World support? Funny, it seemed we had everyone's blessing except, say, Russia (oil deals with Saddam seemed to temper their resolve) to go in, and I've sourced the UN's blessing on taking action before. In fact, it was the UN that warned Saddam that force was quickly becoming the only option. Funny how we forget that. Now that it turns out that Saddam didn't have any WMDs in his hands (only a few hundred trucks sneaking across the Syrian border prior to invasion, plus launcher pads found trying to leave dock in the region, plus two Soldiers suffering mild nerve agent poisoning from two of the old regime's shells busting open), it seems everyone is backing away from their previous stance.
A couple of iraqi soldiers may have had mild colds as well. That does not point to the existance of biological weapons. There were no weapons of mass destruction and that is no me talking, but the UN inspectors.
Spare me the heartstrung please for a "free" Iraq when the facts are insurmountably evident, and their politicians simultaneously condemn us yet beg us to stay. Show me your facts. Don't show me your ridiculous speculation based off of what you learned from the comfort of your home. I've been there, and I've dealt with these people. If you can't make it (because of the dangerous Americans in Baghdad), then at least swing by Kuwait and ask them what they think of us. It's sad when another country appreciates the American Soldier more than his own.
The profession of the soldier is a difficult one and has to be respected. However, historically the soldiers are always kept in the dark and are motivated by patriotic BS and the graveyard is full of them (and their victims). I am sorry, but that is the nature of the job.
Whichever way you look at it, the war with Iraq was wrong. Don't you believe for one minute that any of your psychopaphic leaders are concerned with democracy and human rights in Iraq, while the US itself is slowly but surely turning into a police state.
Your rights are being erroded almost day by day because of this so called war against so called "terrorists" who somehow managed to fly planes into the World Trade Centre, none of whom were, by the way, iraqis or afghans.
There are too many wars and each time there is a war there are billions of dollars made by bankers, arms companies,construction companies and in the case of Iraq the oil companies as well. Lets lessen the brainwashing propaganda, PLEASE.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 09:52 AM
Drake is entirely incorrect on more than a few of his points. Especially in regards to the shape of the infrastructure in Iraq during Saddams stay in power.
Saddam may have been a jerk, but he built up Iraq with American tax dollars, had working electrical systems and roadways and schoosl across the country up and running before the americasn andteh uk decided to bomb the country practically back into the stone age which in turn halted the electricity, detsroyed the water distribution system and created the outbreak of disease.
by the way, car bombing s would go way down if there wasn't an occupational army around.
truthfully, if there was a foreign army in my country, I would kill them too. If there was a saudi army in new york, I'm sure a few boys from Jersey would go through the tunnel and show a few of em what for.
Don't understand why that is such a foreign idea to anybody.
"gee they're bombing us, I wonder why?"
How about, because YOU are the enemy?
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 10:14 AM
Drake is entirely incorrect on more than a few of his points. Especially in regards to the shape of the infrastructure in Iraq during Saddams stay in power.
Saddam may have been a jerk, but he built up Iraq with American tax dollars, had working electrical systems and roadways and schoosl across the country up and running before the americasn andteh uk decided to bomb the country practically back into the stone age which in turn halted the electricity, detsroyed the water distribution system and created the outbreak of disease.
by the way, car bombing s would go way down if there wasn't an occupational army around.
truthfully, if there was a foreign army in my country, I would kill them too. If there was a saudi army in new york, I'm sure a few boys from Jersey would go through the tunnel and show a few of em what for.
Don't understand why that is such a foreign idea to anybody.
"gee they're bombing us, I wonder why?"
How about, because YOU are the enemy?
The worst part of the matter, far as the car bombings and internal terrorism is concerned, is that there is evidence that some of these acts are carried out by US/UK special op personnel. This means the current civil war in Iraq did not just happen, but was part of the plan.
The following documentary details how a couple of UK SAS commandos had attacked the Iraqi police (supposedly, the allies of the US and the UK) while DRESSED AS ARABS. Nothing like fueling a civil war, while you are robbing a country blind.
The documentary is about the use of "terrorism" as an excuse to frighten the masses and for waging war. Check it out:
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 10:22 AM
Drake, you can check out the documentary as well. I am sure that it will be very enlightening for you.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 10:26 AM
Black Flag or False Flag operations are inclusive to any war be it modern or otherwise.
These types of operations are carried out to create a problem so that the resources that are present can step in and provide the solution. they set the stage for actions to be carried out with as little backlash as possible on the home front. So long as no one ever finds out that we have effectively attacked ourselves, we are free to proceed with whatever operations we have designed to proceed with.
While evidence is hard to find, it is not impossible to find.
there are now many documents being released under various freedom of information acts and what not that reveal that western governments have been involved in these black flag ops for some time.
In particular, the USA, Great Britain and Israel have carried out a few doozies!
And so, I think it is understandable that these 3 powers aren't given a lot of credibility when it comes to them saying they are doing the right thing with the middle east.
Now, for you outraged few out there who are chaffing, for starters, look up "Gulf of Tonkin" then take it from there. present your views after you've read some verified evidence and truths that are indeed out there. Feel the same about it? Don't answer that yet. but Tonkin wasn't the first time America attacked another country on false premises. Unfortunately it wasn't the last either... and...
By all means, completely avoid the counter propaganda and stick to the documented evidence. No zeitgeist crap movie, no loose change crap movie. just the documented facts. stick to that alone and don't even bring up any of the college frat boy nonsense youtube crap.
just the official stuff alone.
it weighs a lot more than the frat boy prank films.
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 11:49 AM
Black Flag or False Flag operations are inclusive to any war be it modern or otherwise.
These types of operations are carried out to create a problem so that the resources that are present can step in and provide the solution. they set the stage for actions to be carried out with as little backlash as possible on the home front. So long as no one ever finds out that we have effectively attacked ourselves, we are free to proceed with whatever operations we have designed to proceed with.
While evidence is hard to find, it is not impossible to find.
there are now many documents being released under various freedom of information acts and what not that reveal that western governments have been involved in these black flag ops for some time.
In particular, the USA, Great Britain and Israel have carried out a few doozies!
And so, I think it is understandable that these 3 powers aren't given a lot of credibility when it comes to them saying they are doing the right thing with the middle east.
Now, for you outraged few out there who are chaffing, for starters, look up "Gulf of Tonkin" then take it from there. present your views after you've read some verified evidence and truths that are indeed out there. Feel the same about it? Don't answer that yet. but Tonkin wasn't the first time America attacked another country on false premises. Unfortunately it wasn't the last either... and...
By all means, completely avoid the counter propaganda and stick to the documented evidence. No zeitgeist crap movie, no loose change crap movie. just the documented facts. stick to that alone and don't even bring up any of the college frat boy nonsense youtube crap.
just the official stuff alone.
it weighs a lot more than the frat boy prank films.
Unfortunately, a lot of false flag operations also involve the death of innocent people during, as a result and as a long term consequence, but as the grown ups among us know by now, our psychophic world leaders don't give a ****, not EVEN when UK/USA soldiers are dying. If you are not part of their bloodlines or their cult, then your life is not worth a dime and you are expendable, thus can be used as cannon fodder.
If anyone thinks that the US president or the UK prime minister lose 2 seconds of sleep of their dead soldiers then they must be even more deluded than the suicide bombers.
Anyway, the documentary that I posted is a serious piece of journalism and it basically covers the subject area that you have posted. There are also some good bits of info on YouTube, so lets not dismiss them all completely, after all, a lot of this info is not going to be shown on the (controlled) network channels in our "Democratic" countries.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Gotta disagree with the value of speculative videos or commentaries.
There is plenty of Documented incontrovertible evidence. There is no need to further obscure with speculation and venting at some perceived evil. there is evil afoot, most foul and right there in paper and on film.
I frankly don't need poorly researched frat boy accusatory films to tell me that the Bush admin has done some things that are tantamount to criminal activities. I think that is right there on the table. Not a dang thing seems to be done about it, but there you go.
I mean we could all go round and round passing info back and forth in forums and social networking sites, but while we do this, we aren't doing anything else to make a difference.
It is incumbent upon us to make a difference inreal life too. Give that homeless guy 5 bucks, help that student understand why what he did was in poor taste when he threw that extra sucker punch when he was already winning, help your kid with their homework, watch tv with your kid, heck, there's a billion ways to bring change into the world.
of course, maintaining the vocal on what's wrong is important too!
For me, that is the value in social networking. maintain the vocal!
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 12:20 PM
Gotta disagree with the value of speculative videos or commentaries.
There is plenty of Documented incontrovertible evidence. There is no need to further obscure with speculation and venting at some perceived evil. there is evil afoot, most foul and right there in paper and on film.
I frankly don't need poorly researched frat boy accusatory films to tell me that the Bush admin has done some things that are tantamount to criminal activities. I think that is right there on the table. Not a dang thing seems to be done about it, but there you go.
I mean we could all go round and round passing info back and forth in forums and social networking sites, but while we do this, we aren't doing anything else to make a difference.
It is incumbent upon us to make a difference inreal life too. Give that homeless guy 5 bucks, help that student understand why what he did was in poor taste when he threw that extra sucker punch when he was already winning, help your kid with their homework, watch tv with your kid, heck, there's a billion ways to bring change into the world.
of course, maintaining the vocal on what's wrong is important too!
For me, that is the value in social networking. maintain the vocal!
I understand where you are coming from, but there are speculative videos and there are the factual ones and the way things are going nowadays the more exposure that the factual videos get, then there will be more people waking up and perhaps there will be less chance of criminal elements within our governments getting their way. That is all.
Also, I believe that both of the links that I provided are factual. They may not be comfortable viewing, but they were not made with the intention of being entertainment products. They do however present facts that may or may not take some of us out of our comfort zones, but again facts can be cruel, maybe not as cruel as our leaders, but cruel neverthless.
Just check the first video that I posted on the Federal Reserve. It is not an amateur video. It was made by the late hollywood producer Arron Russo and see if you can find anything speculative there. The same goes for the second video.
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:38 PM
Sigh,... yes the UN did bless off on force. I have to dig up my grad paper on this, but I quoted a specific passge explicitly warning Saddam.
And to think, here I was magically thinking you'd suddenly see the light, check your facts, and agree with me without resorting to emotional arguments over factual ones...
I'll have some citations of my own up soon. Need to find my docs.
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Sigh,... yes the UN did bless off on force. I have to dig up my grad paper on this, but I quoted a specific passge explicitly warning Saddam.
And to think, here I was magically thinking you'd suddenly see the light, check your facts, and agree with me without resorting to emotional arguments over factual ones...
I'll have some citations of my own up soon. Need to find my docs.
I didn't understand one word of what you said, that is if it was intended for me.
Drake
04-09-2008, 12:52 PM
I didn't understand one word of what you said, that is if it was intended for me.
It wasn't meant for you. That should clear that up. I've pretty much chosen to ignore you after watching you argue for two pages with that other fellow. I just haven't actually put you on ignore like I did shaolin wookie.
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 12:59 PM
The UN have not sanctioned the US and UK Invasion of Iraq. they were put into a position of being declared moot by the Bush administration with his now infamous "I respectfully disagree" line just prior to engaging after a 3 month buildup in the Gulf just prior to the invasion while they (the Bush admin) attempted to get blessings from everyone and to have everyone join in with their attack based on false intel.
I mean those pictures that Powell used were ridiculous. Holding up a little vial of powder is blatant theatrics and in the end, the UN did not agree to it and there is still debate in regards to the legality of it. There is so much in motion legally speaking it will be years after Bush is gone before it will get sorted and that is what is the saddest part.
You cannot present any paper from anywhere that says the UN, or more specifically the UN security council approves of or gave legal blessings to the US and the UK in their attack on Iraq. You will find that by anyones reckoning, with the exception of the US and the UK, all other members of the security council were against invasion. That is permanent members included. You will find that with very few exceptions, that the majority of UN member nations opposed and still oppose the invasion and occupation.
you will find a senator on the presidential ballot in the USA who is winning in his bid for the Democratic nomination is using his opposition of the war on Iraq as a positive reason for giving him your vote.
But by all means, produce the paper that states the contrary.
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 01:23 PM
It wasn't meant for you. That should clear that up. I've pretty much chosen to ignore you after watching you argue for two pages with that other fellow. I just haven't actually put you on ignore like I did shaolin wookie.
I wasn't arguing with that other fellow, I was "reacting" to him, rather like you would if an iraqi soldier shot at you.
Our retarded friend Unkokusai makes a habit of following me across threads and provokes conflict, nobody seems to notice that. He seems to lead a lonely existance in his private life so this is all the fun that is available to him. Maybe you should take him to Iraq, the next time you are there and maybe between us we can arrange a friendly fire incident, eh? ;)
Of course, Unkokusai is not your problem, let me deal with him. However, you ignoring fundemental facts because of my "argument" with another poster, boarders on the ridiculous.
You are using that as an excuse to hide from the solid facts put forward in my post. We all know you wouldn't be ignoring me if I was waving the "war on terror" and the patriotic flag.
Anyway, if that is what pleases you then do so by all means, facts never got in the way of your government's slaughter of thousands of Iraqis for profits and for fulfilling hidden political agendas, so why should they make any difference for one of their brainwashed robots.
Who knows, if things go well, maybe soon you will be happily "liberating" the Iranians (from their physical bodies), by introducing Western Democracy to their part of the world.
Good luck in your chosen path.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 01:48 PM
I wasn't arguing to that other fellow, I was "reacting" to him, rather like you would if an iraqi soldier shot at you.
Our retarded friend Unkokusai makes a habit of following me across threads and provokes conflict, nobody seems to notice that. He seems to lead a lonely existance in his private life so this is all the fun that is available to him. Maybe you should take him to Iraq, the next time you are there and maybe between us we can arrange a friendly fire incident, eh? .
More great material, Basement-Boy. What a show! :rolleyes:
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 01:51 PM
Give that homeless guy 5 bucks!
So he can put it toward his next crack purchase and stay homeless and you will have a handy way to feel good about yourself?
How far from the topic has this drifted?
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Iraq is a unique situation. I wouldn't call them sovereign for so long as there is a foreign army standing on their soil. That is by definition "occupation".
There are around 80 countries with US troops standing on their soil. None of them are sovereign? :confused:
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Why not? And do you apply that reasoning to every conflict in the world?
I missed a couple dozen posts. Was this answered?
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 02:03 PM
There are around 80 countries with US troops standing on their soil. None of them are sovereign? :confused:
The thing that was missing was the invitation. :rolleyes:
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 02:10 PM
The thing that was missing was the invitation. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, I missed your answer. Are none of them soveriegn?
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 02:52 PM
More great material, Basement-Boy. What a show! :rolleyes:
I am glad that you liked it. It is that twinkle of intelligence again, very interesting;)
By the way, there are some cheap deals available for visitors to Iraq and under new democratic and human rights regulations imposed by your consciensious government, the Iraqi travel agents are giving special discounts to retards such as yourself. Don't forget to pack your medication and your drool napkins.:D
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 03:35 PM
Yeah, great, good, good stuff Basement-Boy. Really impressive... :rolleyes:
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 03:36 PM
Anyway: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24024416>1=43001
HardWork8
04-09-2008, 03:56 PM
Yeah, great, good, good stuff..:rolleyes:
Yet more twinklings of intelligence, there may be some hope for you yet, my little retard, although your weird rolling eyes do give me some cause for concern regarding your mental health.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 04:55 PM
Yeah, still great. Everyone is proud of you, Basement-Boy. :rolleyes:
David Jamieson
04-09-2008, 05:03 PM
I'm sorry, I missed your answer. Are none of them soveriegn?
lol. of course there are sovereign nations with american bases. Iraq is not one of them. so, your point is?
you cannot tell the difference between a base of operations that is allowed under NATO rules and established through treaties and an occupied nation?
astonishing!
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 05:25 PM
You specifically said that having American boots on the ground called into question sovereignty.
American troops are there as part of agreements with the host countries.
There is such an agreement between the US and Iraqi governments, and the Iraqi government in fact very much wants us there.
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 05:30 PM
Your last fallacious argument aside, isn't this thread about China and Tibet?
unkokusai
04-09-2008, 06:33 PM
So, has anyone else been to Tibet and actually spoken to the people there about what they think of all this?
I have tibetan friends. but I am han.
so I may not speak for them.
I like to look for things in common or bind us together.
Buddhism was from India. it went to China, from China it went to tibet.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/tib_timeline.htm
http://www.tibet-tour.com/tibet/religion.html
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/religion/buddhism/tibetan.htm
--
Both people share a lot of culture and history together in the past.
once tang's princess married the king of tibet.
both are dependent on each other for further economic development.
tibet needs technology and capital, infrastructure and all,
himalaya high ground is rich with nature resources.
--
independence protests were always there. it is just more prominent recently.
--
my point is that the issue of independence is there since 1950 or 1951.
--
there are also independence movements for xin jiang. moslem Chinese.
--
and they started since Manchurian or qing took over or conquered xin jiang.
there were 2 big moslem rebellions or hui bian during qing dynasty. these 2 rebellions weakened or shook qing's foundation more than anything else.
--
after republican revolution in 1911.
both tibet and xin jiang were parts of ROC.
in the aftermath of the communist uprising post wwii
PRC was founded in 1949;
after some negociations, the communists troops went into tibet and xin jiang.
--
if China and tibet go each own way separately?
--
--
only time will tell.
--
the real contention is this.
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=46,6135,0,0,1,0
:eek::confused:
olympic torch may be carried on no matter what.
:)
Drake
04-10-2008, 02:29 AM
Are you denying the fact that all those thousands of bombs dropped on Iraq damaged the infrastructure immensley? Weren't bridges, energy installations, homes, hospitals and even a baby food factory destroyed, for god's sake.
And you are not doing it for free. U.S. companies are getting paid good money to rebuild what the US military has destroyed. Do you see now how this dirty game works out?
Not just uneducated extremists but also US and the UK special ops who through terrorist attacks ensure that the country stays distablised. It is called the divide and rule policy.
History has proven that US/UK forces are as capable of filling mass graves as the next psychopathic army.
Besides, who told you that the "bloodthirsty militias" were funded in any way by Iran? Oh, wait a minute, let me guess, it was the same people who told us about the Weapons of Mass Destruction, oh that is ok then, lets go and bomb Iran now, that will show them.
Maybe we can discuss the rampant corruption in the US that terrorizes its citizens into paying an income tax that is illegal and unconstitutional, to pay the debt that the government owes to the Federal Reserve, a PRIVATE bank which prints and lends dollars to the US government. All this happens while the government has the right to print its own money legitimately without having to borrow from and without filling the pockets of private bankers, who are the secret shareholders of this bank.
Ah, you don't believe me, then you can enlighten yourself by watching the following documentary.
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173
A couple of iraqi soldiers may have had mild colds as well. That does not point to the existance of biological weapons. There were no weapons of mass destruction and that is no me talking, but the UN inspectors.
The profession of the soldier is a difficult one and has to be respected. However, historically the soldiers are always kept in the dark and are motivated by patriotic BS and the graveyard is full of them (and their victims). I am sorry, but that is the nature of the job.
Whichever way you look at it, the war with Iraq was wrong. Don't you believe for one minute that any of your psychopaphic leaders are concerned with democracy and human rights in Iraq, while the US itself is slowly but surely turning into a police state.
Your rights are being erroded almost day by day because of this so called war against so called "terrorists" who somehow managed to fly planes into the World Trade Centre, none of whom were, by the way, iraqis or afghans.
There are too many wars and each time there is a war there are billions of dollars made by bankers, arms companies,construction companies and in the case of Iraq the oil companies as well. Lets lessen the brainwashing propaganda, PLEASE.
Since you insist... I'll take this paragraph by paragraph.
- I'm saying there wasn't much to destroy to begin with. What we didn't destroy was found to be in a horrendous state of disrepair.
- Reconstruction is being done mainly by Iraqi workers. They even do a lot of work for military facilities as well. One of our jobs down there is escorting them, since they have been getting kidnapped and killed by the poor insurgents who only want us out.
- Instability is not what we want. All you'll end up ruling is a hornet's nest. Whoopee. In fact, please refer to the latest house hearings for our opinions on this. The surge was supposed to usher in reconciliation. The Iraqis failed to do their part.
- Show me a mass grave in Iraq created by US/UK/Australian/Romanian/Italian/Ugandan (among others) forces. They are all down there. I've met them.
- I'm not at liberty to discuss specifics, but there's plenty of evidence showing Iran is providing assistance to insurgents. Where do you think they are getting their nice rockets from? Wal-Mart?
- I'll skip the Fed comment. Been answered already somewhere else.
- Mild colds and mild nerve agent poisoning aren't even remotely comparable. That's reaching. REALLY reaching. Please research this before commenting again, because you clearly don't understand what you're talking about.
- I've never made a comparison between 9/11 (Organized and orchestrated from Afghanistan, who harbored the plotters, regardless of the birthplace of the hijackers) and Iraq. Iraq did not abide by UN resolutions. Iraq was warned. Iraq was warned SEVERAL times thereafter by the UN. Iraq failed to comply. Please address the issues I mentioned with the prewar movement across the Syrian border. Afghanistan refused to give up Bin Laden. Bin Laden even at first refused to take responsibility for 9/11.
I know there's no convincing you otherwise, though it is ironic that you are the one who would use the word "brainwashing".
Drake
04-10-2008, 03:02 AM
Kofi Annan, Novenmber 8th, 2002.
“If Iraq’s defiance continues, however, the Security Council must face its responsibilities"
"It reflected a renewed commitment to preventing the development and spread of weapons of mass destruction, and the universal wish to see that goal obtained by peaceful means. " Guess ol Kofi thought they had WMDs too!
From the UN website.
"By the unanimous adoption of resolution 1441 (2002), the Council instructed the resumed inspections to begin within 45 days, and also decided it would convene immediately upon the receipt of any reports from inspection authorities that Iraq was interfering with their activities. It recalled, in that context, that the Council had repeatedly warned Iraq that it would face "serious consequences" as a result of continued violations."
18 February, 2003... UN meeting...
"Several speakers, however, including Australia, Peru, and Japan, urged quick action if the Council was to maintain credibility. The representative of Australia said it was patently clear that Iraq was in further material breach of its obligations. The Council should not wait forever to confront the issue and should move quickly to consider a further resolution that dealt decisively with Iraq’s failure to comply with resolution 1441. Delays and divisions in the Council would only play into Iraq’s hands."
Kuwait said...
"The Iraqi Government alone could spare the Iraqi people and those of the region the negative repercussions of military force by adjusting its position and substantially cooperating with inspectors, not only on procedure and process. The Council unity must be maintained as an important aspect of guaranteeing implementation of the resolutions it adopted. Iraq was similarly frustrating in addressing the situation of the Kuwaiti prisoners of war and missing persons. Those persons had been missing for more than 12 years, yet Iraq had refused to cooperate in remedying that humanitarian dimension."
Japan said...
"He went on to say that his country was aware of strong opposition to war around the world and shared the desire to resolve the issue peacefully. However, even if the inspections were to be continued and strengthened, they would hardly lead to the elimination of its weapons of mass destruction, unless Iraq fundamentally changed its attitude of cooperating only passively. It was crucial now that the international community remain united, and continue to put strong pressure on Iraq. If the Council failed to act in unity, it would not only damage the credibility of the United Nations, but also send the wrong message to Iraq. As Iraq was not cooperating and discharging its obligations fully, Japan considered it desirable for the Council to adopt a new resolution that would clearly demonstrate the determined attitude of the international community. Diplomatic efforts had been made for 12 long years; Iraq now had very limited time. He hoped the Council would be united and take effective action to fulfil its responsibilities for international peace and security."
And particularly condemning... Kofi Annan one week after the invasion...
"KOFI ANNAN, Secretary-General, said that “all of us must regret that our intense efforts to achieve a peaceful solution, through the Council, did not succeed”. Many asked why the Iraqi Government did not take full advantage of the last chance they were given by the Council, "
"JANUSZ STANCZYK (Poland) said the conclusion had to be reached that the peaceful means for resolving the Iraqi crisis had been exhausted and the use of force remained the only option. The exclusive responsibility for that state of affairs rested with the Iraqi leadership. The intervention of the international coalition to force implementation by Iraq of relevant Council resolutions was not directed against the Iraqi people. It had been undertaken to eliminate Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, which threatened international peace and security. Failure to take action to effectively disarm Saddam Hussein’s regime would be a serious political and military mistake, tantamount to tolerating breaches of the law and persistent disregard of obligations towards the United Nations. It would lead to further undermining the authority of the United Nations."
"KISHORE MAHBUBANI (Singapore) expressed deep regret that the Government of Iraq had chosen not to take the final opportunity afforded it under resolution 1441. The people of Iraq, who had already suffered greatly from the Government’s failure to comply with its disarmament obligations over the past 12 years, would suffer the most from the conflict. Like many Members, his country would have preferred that the Council had again explicitly authorized military action to disarm Iraq, but the onus had always been on that country to avoid war. Given Iraq’s long history of flouting Security Council resolutions, the inability of the Council to reach a new consensus could not be taken as a reason for inaction to disarm Iraq."
"JOHN DAUTH (Australia) said it was time for Council members to go beyond the acrimony, narrow political ambitions and separate agendas that had hamstrung the Council in recent months and seize the opportunity to make good on their responsibilities. It was time that the Council looked to the future for Iraq and the Iraqi people. It was time that the Council focused on what was at stake, and provided the guidance the international community was waiting for on humanitarian needs, long-term reconstruction, and the elimination of weapons of mass destruction."
"SUN JOUN-VUNG (Republic of Korea) said Iraq had been given more than enough time and opportunity to disarm. Since it had failed to comply with its disarmament obligations for the past 12 years, it must be concluded that Iraq had had no genuine intention in disarming. If the country today faced the “serious consequences” mentioned in resolution 1441, it had no one but itself to blame. The coalition action by the international community should be construed as an inevitable measure taken after the exhaustion of all possible diplomatic efforts to resolve the issue peacefully."
"JAGDISH KOONJUL (Mauritius) said that, had Iraq respected all its obligations regarding implementation of the relevant Council resolutions, war could have been avoided. "
"SRGJAN KERIM (The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) said that, unfortunately, the Iraqi regime did not comprehend the seriousness of the situation and had failed to fulfil its disarmament obligations. If Iraq had made a real effort to cooperate in substance in the past 12 years, and seized the final opportunity given to it in resolution 1441, it would have been possible to avoid the current situation. The action that was being led by the coalition represented a last resort and was in accordance with relevant United Nations resolutions."
There's MUCH more, so let me know when you're ready for more solid evidence. Or perhaps you'd like to carry on some more with the emotional argument using vague adjectives and outlandish assumptions, which, oddly enough, aren't even based on any real fact.
So there you go... there's only a sliver of my evidence. What do you have? More assumptions, perhaps?
*all of this is accessible on the UN website
Drake
04-10-2008, 03:15 AM
Now, I know most conspiracy theorists don't like reading more than one or two paragraphs, and would prefer a youtube link made by unqualified folks, but at least SKIM the **** thing...
https://www.cia.gov/news-information/speeches-testimony/2004/tenet_georgetownspeech_02052004.html
Drake
04-10-2008, 03:15 AM
And if you wanted to blame to President for bad intel...
Statement by George J. Tenet Director of Central Intelligence
July 11, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legitimate questions have arisen about how remarks on alleged Iraqi attempts to obtain uranium in Africa made it into the President’s State of the Union speech. Let me be clear about several things right up front. First, CIA approved the President’s State of the Union address before it was delivered. Second, I am responsible for the approval process in my Agency. And third, the President had every reason to believe that the text presented to him was sound. These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President.
For perspective, a little history is in order.
There was fragmentary intelligence gathered in late 2001 and early 2002 on the allegations of Saddam’s efforts to obtain additional raw uranium from Africa, beyond the 550 metric tons already in Iraq. In an effort to inquire about certain reports involving Niger, CIA’s counter-proliferation experts, on their own initiative, asked an individual with ties to the region to make a visit to see what he could learn. He reported back to us that one of the former Nigerien officials he met stated that he was unaware of any contract being signed between Niger and rogue states for the sale of uranium during his tenure in office. The same former official also said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him and insisted that the former official meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between Iraq and Niger. The former official interpreted the overture as an attempt to discuss uranium sales. The former officials also offered details regarding Niger’s processes for monitoring and transporting uranium that suggested it would be very unlikely that material could be illicitly diverted. There was no mention in the report of forged documents -- or any suggestion of the existence of documents at all.
Because this report, in our view, did not resolve whether Iraq was or was not seeking uranium from abroad, it was given a normal and wide distribution, but we did not brief it to the President, Vice-President or other senior Administration officials. We also had to consider that the former Nigerien officials knew that what they were saying would reach the U.S. government and that this might have influenced what they said.
In the fall of 2002, my Deputy and I briefed hundreds of members of Congress on Iraq. We did not brief the uranium acquisition story.
Also in the fall of 2002, our British colleagues told us they were planning to publish an unclassified dossier that mentioned reports of Iraqi attempts to obtain uranium in Africa. Because we viewed the reporting on such acquisition attempts to be inconclusive, we expressed reservations about its inclusion but our colleagues said they were confident in their reports and left it in their document.
In September and October 2002 before Senate Committees, senior intelligence officials in response to questions told members of Congress that we differed with the British dossier on the reliability of the uranium reporting.
In October, the Intelligence Community (IC) produced a classified, 90 page National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq’s WMD programs. There is a lengthy section in which most agencies of the Intelligence Community judged that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Let me emphasize, the NIE’s Key Judgments cited six reasons for this assessment; the African uranium issue was not one of them.
But in the interest of completeness, the report contained three paragraphs that discuss Iraq’s significant 550-metric ton uranium stockpile and how it could be diverted while under IAEA safeguard. These paragraphs also cited reports that Iraq began “vigorously trying to procure” more uranium from Niger and two other African countries, which would shorten the time Baghdad needed to produce nuclear weapons. The NIE states: “A foreign government service reported that as of early 2001, Niger planned to send several tons of pure “uranium” (probably yellowcake) to Iraq. As of early 2001, Niger and Iraq reportedly were still working out the arrangements for this deal, which could be for up to 500 tons of yellowcake.” The Estimate also states: “We do not know the status of this arrangement.” With regard to reports that Iraq had sought uranium from two other countries, the Estimate says: “We cannot confirm whether Iraq succeeded in acquiring uranium ore and/or yellowcake from these sources.” Much later in the NIE text, in presenting an alternate view on another matter, the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research included a sentence that states: “Finally, the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR’s assessment, highly dubious.”
An unclassified CIA White Paper in October made no mention of the issue, again because it was not fundamental to the judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program, and because we had questions about some of the reporting. For the same reasons, the subject was not included in many public speeches, Congressional testimony and the Secretary of State’s United Nations presentation in early 2003.
The background above makes it even more troubling that the 16 words eventually made it into the State of the Union speech. This was a mistake.
Portions of the State of the Union speech draft came to the CIA for comment shortly before the speech was given. Various parts were shared with cognizant elements of the Agency for review. Although the documents related to the alleged Niger-Iraqi uranium deal had not yet been determined to be forgeries, officials who were reviewing the draft remarks on uranium raised several concerns about the fragmentary nature of the intelligence with National Security Council colleagues. Some of the language was changed. From what we know now, Agency officials in the end concurred that the text in the speech was factually correct - i.e. that the British government report said that Iraq sought uranium from Africa. This should not have been the test for clearing a Presidential address. This did not rise to the level of certainty which should be required for Presidential speeches, and CIA should have ensured that it was removed.
Posted: 2007-04-12 07:58
unkokusai
04-10-2008, 03:20 AM
Well done.....a little history lesson for the quick-draw revisionists
Drake
04-10-2008, 03:28 AM
And heeeeeere's more...
"THORSTEINN INGOLFSSON (Iceland) said he regretted that Iraq had had to face the serious consequences of military action. That would not have been necessary had the Iraqi regime decided to change its attitude and cooperate immediately, actively and fully, as it was obliged to by resolution 1441 (2002). His country had supported the coalition for the immediate disarmament of Iraq, due to its conviction that action was necessary to ensure the implementation of all relevant United Nations resolutions on the disarmament of Iraq."
And from a meeting late 2003...
"The representative of Cameroon reiterated it was necessary to add a military component to the United Nations missions in Iraq, possibly in the form of a multinational force with a clear and robust mandate. He called on the Coalition to be more open to the United Nations and its members, which meant more transparency on its part. The challenge of the reconstruction of Iraq must be met together to honour the memory of Sergio Vieira the Mello and other victims of the Tuesday attack."
18 civilians died recently by a suicide bomber... where's the outrage for that?
sanjuro_ronin
04-10-2008, 04:21 AM
Well posted Drake.
Though I don't see anything authorizing military action, typical of the UN though.
I don't blame the US for the Iraq mess, I blame the UN for not having the balls to state, PLAINLY, wither a military action is authorize,
I lame UN inspectors for not having the balls to make a call on the WMD, all they did was ask for more time, more this more that.
I do blame the US for a **** poor strategy though, did they learn nothing from what the Russian went through in Afghanistan?
Anyways.
Back to China and Tibet, I am confused as to what these protesters think they will accomplish by doing what they are doing.
The world knows the plight of the Tibetan people.
It doesn't really care.
This will only make the Chinese resolve stronger.
unkokusai
04-10-2008, 04:32 AM
They've already gotten more attention, and are well on their way to putting a big black eye on China's 'face' for the Olympics.
sanjuro_ronin
04-10-2008, 04:54 AM
They've already gotten more attention, and are well on their way to putting a big black eye on China's 'face' for the Olympics.
And that will accomplish what exatcly for their cause?
HardWork8
04-10-2008, 05:05 AM
- I'm saying there wasn't much to destroy to begin with. What we didn't destroy was found to be in a horrendous state of disrepair.
Iraq had an infrustructure that was not in good shape, but it functioned enough to provide electricity, clean water and other basic services and you took even that away from them.
The infrastructures poor state of health can in a large part be attributed to the many years of idiotic sanctions imposed on the poor and helpless people of that country.
You also conveniently "forgot" the fact that each time a US/UK bomb destroyed an infrastructure asset of Iraq, it also murdered dozens if not hundreds of innocent lives.
- Reconstruction is being done mainly by Iraqi workers.
Of course they are done mainly by Iraqi workers & it is not because because the US/UK authorities are kind hearted, it is because:
1. It is too dangerous/expensive to get US/UK crews to do the menial jobs.
2. & if you did manage to get/convince cheap US/UK labor, there is no way the new Iraqi government or the iraqi people would stand for it.
One of our jobs down there is escorting them, since they have been getting kidnapped & killed by the poor insurgents who only want us out.
Don't rule out the possibility that they might get kidnapped & killed by your own Special Ops.
- Instability is not what we want.
Instability is not what you the soldiers want, but this war is not about you. The divide and rule doctrine has been in existance long before you were around & unfortunately, if things continue the way they are, then it will be around long after you are gone.
All you'll end up ruling is a hornet's nest.
...and that is what it is all about.
Whoopee
Well, just keep your distance from those camels & you should be just fine...;)
In fact, please refer to the latest house hearings for our opinions on this.
The house hearings are imaterial, the war has been promoted, organized orchestrated by the western intelligence agencies, and we all know of their undying respect for democratic decision making.
The surge was supposed to usher in reconciliation. The Iraqis failed to do their part.
There is never going to be any kind of reconciliation as long as it is beneficial to keep iraq in a state of turmoil. You are not going to have any internal peace if you have "allied" special ops soldiers, dressed in arabic clothing, shooting at & murdering US friendly iraqi government officials. Why don't you address this topic, which is a proven fact. Or are you not at liberty to discuss this issue.
- Show me a mass grave in Iraq created by US/UK/Australian/Romanian/Italian/Ugandan (among others) forces.
First of all you can add as many nationalities as you want, but this war is a US/UK intelligence operation & I am not including the hired help in this.
Secondly, as far as the mass graves are concerned, I said you are capable of filling them, because you have sure killed enough in this war as well as throughout the last century.
As it happens when you bomb the crap out of the iraqis, you just let the survivors bury their dead, it is less messy and it kinda keeps your video games clean. The same thing goes when some soldiers take pot shots at iraqi civilians. I don't believe they run along & bury them afterwards, it is just too incriminating.
- but there's plenty of evidence showing Iran is providing assistance to insurgents.
Weren't there "experts" who were making exactly the same comments about Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destructions?
Where do you think they are getting their nice rockets from?
Well, one of Saddam's chief arms suppliers was the US,before their lovers' quarel. The weapons supplied included the "nice" chemical weapons that everyone was so obsessed with, even after they were dismantelled & destroyed by UN inspectors, after the FIRST GULF WAR.
- I'll skip the Fed comment. Been answered already somewhere else.
Has it been answered to your satisfaction? If so, did you bother to watch the video link?
And can you direct me to where I may see this answer for myself, because as I recall, former IRS agents have come out and said that the US INCOME TAX IS A SCAM!
-Please research this before commenting again, because you clearly don't understand what you're talking about.
Then nor do the UN Inspectors who declared that Iraq did not have Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Incidentally, one of the inspectors, who was British went public & said that Iraq's Chemical capability was exaggerated to justify the war.
Funnily enough soon after his declaration he was found dead. Verdict suicide! Nothing suspicious because UK is just like the US,a "free democracy".
- I've never made a comparison between 9/11 (Organized and orchestrated from Afghanistan, who harbored the plotters, regardless of the birthplace of the hijackers) and Iraq.
Afghanistan did NOT organize the 9/11. It was all done very close by in Virginia and Washington. WAKE UP!
There are people out there researching this stuff. There are a lot of questions that have to be answered. Everytime someone tries to explain things to people like you, you end up sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and singing your official/patriotic mantras and praying that the truth will go away. WAKE UP.
You just swallow what you are told and discard everything else as BS. You don't read books, you don't do research and for some of you a 1hour 42 minute documentary (that reveals a former president to be a drug dealing, coke snorting and dishonest gangster, linked to various murders), TOO LONG :confused:. What has happened to the attention span of you people????
You don't believe me? Then go to video google/google and search "The Clinton Chronicles". Copies of this video were given to every congressman before Clinton's election, and do you know what happened? NOTHING!
No attempts were even made to discredit the video, well because they couldn't as it would draw attention to the issues the video was raising.
What does that prove? Well it proves or at least implies that Bill Clinton was "elected" president before he actually became the "democraticaly" elected president and he was "protected" along the way into office, during and after, to the point that now his wife is running for office. It is ridiculous.
Is this the kind of system that the US is trying to spread across the globe, through slaughter and carnage?
Iraq did not abide by UN resolutions.
Sometimes nor does the US ? Does that justify terrorist attacks against its people?
Please address the issues I mentioned with the prewar movement across the Syrian border.
Would the source of your information about that prewar movement across the Syrian boarder be the same people whos said that Saddam's missiles could deliver chemical warheads to Europe or was it Israel within 45 minutes?
Look, the "allies" were calling the shots in Iraq after the first Gulf War. You are saying that not only did Saddam manage to hide his chemical weapons from occuppying forces but also managed to transfer ALL of them to syria,specially during the hightened tensions of the prewar days, where his country was under the "microscobe" of the worlds most powerful intelligence agencies?
Why get rid of some of your most powerful weapons just before a war, when they could be most handy?
Why doesn't the US ask the Syrians to hand over the weapons?
Afghanistan refused to give up Bin Laden.
George Bush may one day be accused of war crimes. We'll wait and see how the great "Democratic" Nation of U.S.A will hand him over for trial.
Bin Laden even at first refused to take responsibility for 9/11.
That is typical of a religious fanatic who is willing to die for allah and take thousands with him. When he is caught he says oh no it wasn't me!
Don't you see the contradiction in this scenario, taking into account on how "Bin Ladin" has been sold to us?
I know there's no convincing you otherwise, though it is ironic that you are the one who would use the word "brainwashing".
The irony here is that you seem like an intelligent person and you seem to mean well.
However, brainwashing works in a wide spectrum. All I am asking is for you to open your mind and stop faithfully trusting your so called leaders, they are not there to serve you, nor to serve America, they are there to serve their own and their masters' agendas.
If you are outside of their cults and family bloodlines, then you are worth nothing and you can be used as cannon fodder whenever they please.
Don't take my word for it, research it for yourself. There are a lot of books out there written by intelligent researchers. There are documentaries here on the internet, and yes some of them are crap and I know that fact too, but there are others that will open your eyes.
The links I provided are a good place to start. If you watch them and think that they are crap, then come and tell me so. But at least you would have taken the responsibilty as an american to watch and process information that touches upon important issues regarding to what is happening in your nation.
And what is happening since the "War on Terrorism" is alarming. A lot of your freedoms have been erroded. Now I've heard "reports" saying that Al Quada is recruiting "whites", how very convenient.
That widens the scope for your security agencies as regards detainments and interrogations, yes it could be Guantanamo for white americans as well.
Samurai Jack
04-10-2008, 05:13 AM
Back to China and Tibet, I am confused as to what these protesters think they will accomplish by doing what they are doing.
The world knows the plight of the Tibetan people.
It doesn't really care.
Actually, the not caring part is apparently what the Tibetans hope to remedy. They also want international support for cultural autonomy, and it appears that they are succeeding:
U.S. House of Representatives pass resolution against China. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/09/house.olympics/?iref=mpstoryview)
Australian Prime Minister meets with Chinese Premier on Tibet issue. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/10/2213594.htm?section=justin)
British Prime Minister vows to boycott Olympic opening ceremony. (http://www.forbes.com/leadership/2008/04/10/olympics-opening-ceremony-lead-cx_0409brown.html)
France urges Tibetan talks following torch protests. (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7445853,00.html)
Germany cancels Foreign Aid to China over Tibet crisis. (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3203751,00.html)
European Union expected to boycott Olympics over Tibet. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/09/protests-olympic.html)
HardWork8
04-10-2008, 05:16 AM
And if you wanted to blame to President for bad intel...
Statement by George J. Tenet Director of Central Intelligence
July 11, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legitimate questions have arisen about how remarks on alleged Iraqi attempts to obtain uranium in Africa made it into the President’s State of the Union speech. Let me be clear about several things right up front. First, CIA approved the President’s State of the Union address before it was delivered. Second, I am responsible for the approval process in my Agency. And third, the President had every reason to believe that the text presented to him was sound. These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President.
For perspective, a little history is in order.
There was fragmentary intelligence gathered in late 2001 and early 2002 on the allegations of Saddam’s efforts to obtain additional raw uranium from Africa, beyond the 550 metric tons already in Iraq. In an effort to inquire about certain reports involving Niger, CIA’s counter-proliferation experts, on their own initiative, asked an individual with ties to the region to make a visit to see what he could learn. He reported back to us that one of the former Nigerien officials he met stated that he was unaware of any contract being signed between Niger and rogue states for the sale of uranium during his tenure in office. The same former official also said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him and insisted that the former official meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between Iraq and Niger. The former official interpreted the overture as an attempt to discuss uranium sales. The former officials also offered details regarding Niger’s processes for monitoring and transporting uranium that suggested it would be very unlikely that material could be illicitly diverted. There was no mention in the report of forged documents -- or any suggestion of the existence of documents at all.
Because this report, in our view, did not resolve whether Iraq was or was not seeking uranium from abroad, it was given a normal and wide distribution, but we did not brief it to the President, Vice-President or other senior Administration officials. We also had to consider that the former Nigerien officials knew that what they were saying would reach the U.S. government and that this might have influenced what they said.
In the fall of 2002, my Deputy and I briefed hundreds of members of Congress on Iraq. We did not brief the uranium acquisition story.
Also in the fall of 2002, our British colleagues told us they were planning to publish an unclassified dossier that mentioned reports of Iraqi attempts to obtain uranium in Africa. Because we viewed the reporting on such acquisition attempts to be inconclusive, we expressed reservations about its inclusion but our colleagues said they were confident in their reports and left it in their document.
In September and October 2002 before Senate Committees, senior intelligence officials in response to questions told members of Congress that we differed with the British dossier on the reliability of the uranium reporting.
In October, the Intelligence Community (IC) produced a classified, 90 page National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq’s WMD programs. There is a lengthy section in which most agencies of the Intelligence Community judged that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Let me emphasize, the NIE’s Key Judgments cited six reasons for this assessment; the African uranium issue was not one of them.
But in the interest of completeness, the report contained three paragraphs that discuss Iraq’s significant 550-metric ton uranium stockpile and how it could be diverted while under IAEA safeguard. These paragraphs also cited reports that Iraq began “vigorously trying to procure” more uranium from Niger and two other African countries, which would shorten the time Baghdad needed to produce nuclear weapons. The NIE states: “A foreign government service reported that as of early 2001, Niger planned to send several tons of pure “uranium” (probably yellowcake) to Iraq. As of early 2001, Niger and Iraq reportedly were still working out the arrangements for this deal, which could be for up to 500 tons of yellowcake.” The Estimate also states: “We do not know the status of this arrangement.” With regard to reports that Iraq had sought uranium from two other countries, the Estimate says: “We cannot confirm whether Iraq succeeded in acquiring uranium ore and/or yellowcake from these sources.” Much later in the NIE text, in presenting an alternate view on another matter, the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research included a sentence that states: “Finally, the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR’s assessment, highly dubious.”
An unclassified CIA White Paper in October made no mention of the issue, again because it was not fundamental to the judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program, and because we had questions about some of the reporting. For the same reasons, the subject was not included in many public speeches, Congressional testimony and the Secretary of State’s United Nations presentation in early 2003.
The background above makes it even more troubling that the 16 words eventually made it into the State of the Union speech. This was a mistake.
Portions of the State of the Union speech draft came to the CIA for comment shortly before the speech was given. Various parts were shared with cognizant elements of the Agency for review. Although the documents related to the alleged Niger-Iraqi uranium deal had not yet been determined to be forgeries, officials who were reviewing the draft remarks on uranium raised several concerns about the fragmentary nature of the intelligence with National Security Council colleagues. Some of the language was changed. From what we know now, Agency officials in the end concurred that the text in the speech was factually correct - i.e. that the British government report said that Iraq sought uranium from Africa. This should not have been the test for clearing a Presidential address. This did not rise to the level of certainty which should be required for Presidential speeches, and CIA should have ensured that it was removed.
Posted: 2007-04-12 07:58
To cut a long story short, Iran has the nuclear reactors,the unranium etc,etc, so lets go and bomb them to hell?????? Is that what it is all about?
So why not bomb them before they had built the reactors. Are we waiting for a nuclear "terrorist attack"????
The fact is that NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION HAVE BEEN FOUND BY THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE FORCES ON THE PLANET.
And now you are saying well actually we bombed them into the stone age because of our worries about their future nuclear capablities.
HardWork8
04-10-2008, 05:19 AM
Now, I know most conspiracy theorists don't like reading more than one or two paragraphs, and would prefer a youtube link made by unqualified folks, but at least SKIM the **** thing...
https://www.cia.gov/news-information/speeches-testimony/2004/tenet_georgetownspeech_02052004.html
Quoting CIA sources is like asking the fox to guard the hens. I would not ask those guys the time of day.
Samurai Jack
04-10-2008, 05:22 AM
Hardwork8, would you please keep your posts relevant to the topic?
There are plenty of threads on the war in Iraq that could really benefit from your participation.
Thanks in advance.
Samurai Jack
04-10-2008, 05:23 AM
Back to China and Tibet, I am confused as to what these protesters think they will accomplish by doing what they are doing.
The world knows the plight of the Tibetan people.
It doesn't really care.
Actually, the not caring part is apparently what the Tibetans hope to remedy. They also want international support for cultural autonomy, and it appears that they are succeeding:
U.S. House of Representatives pass resolution against China. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/09/house.olympics/?iref=mpstoryview)
Australian Prime Minister meets with Chinese Premier on Tibet issue. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/10/2213594.htm?section=justin)
British Prime Minister vows to boycott Olympic opening ceremony. (http://www.forbes.com/leadership/2008/04/10/olympics-opening-ceremony-lead-cx_0409brown.html)
France urges Tibetan talks following torch protests. (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7445853,00.html)
Germany cancels Foreign Aid to China over Tibet crisis. (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3203751,00.html)
European Union expected to boycott Olympics over Tibet. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/09/protests-olympic.html)
sanjuro_ronin
04-10-2008, 05:25 AM
Actually, the not caring part is apparently what the Tibetans hope to remedy. They also want international support for cultural autonomy, and it appears that they are succeeding:
U.S. House of Representatives pass resolution against China. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/09/house.olympics/?iref=mpstoryview)
Australian Prime Minister meets with Chinese Premier on Tibet issue. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/10/2213594.htm?section=justin)
British Prime Minister vows to boycott Olympic opening ceremony. (http://www.forbes.com/leadership/2008/04/10/olympics-opening-ceremony-lead-cx_0409brown.html)
France urges Tibetan talks following torch protests. (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7445853,00.html)
Germany cancels Foreign Aid to China over Tibet crisis. (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3203751,00.html)
European Union expected to boycott Olympics over Tibet. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/09/protests-olympic.html)
None of that will work in their best interest.
You really think that IF anyone boycotts the Olympics giving the government of China a "black eye" that, magically, the people in power will say, " fine, they win, give them their freedom", or will they say, " **** with us will you?"
Samurai Jack
04-10-2008, 05:29 AM
I think recieving pressure from every major world power will do more to encourage an opening of talks with the Dalai Lama on cultural autonomy than the indifference you were stating the world holds toward Tibet.
At the very least it's a start.
The civil rights movement in the U.S., and the independance movement in India began similarly, and both were successful.
sanjuro_ronin
04-10-2008, 05:45 AM
I think recieving pressure from every major world power will do more to encourage an opening of talks with the Dalai Lama on cultural autonomy than the indifference you were stating the world holds toward Tibet.
At the very least it's a start.
The civil rights movement in the U.S., and the independance movement in India began similarly, and both were successful.
I hope you are right, I doubt it, but hope you are right.
Maybe things have changed since Tinamen...real change not the superficial kind.
Don't recall the Chinese ever being pressured or "blackmailed' into negociations though, not in goof faith anyways.
HardWork8
04-10-2008, 05:53 AM
Hardwork8, would you please keep your posts relevant to the topic?
There are plenty of threads on the war in Iraq that could really benefit from your participation.
Thanks in advance.
Sorry Samurai Jack,
I suppose it just "drifted" a little as it happens sometimes in the threads. However, I do believe that it was not me who started the "drift".:)
Drake
04-10-2008, 06:15 AM
Ok...last and final comment on Iraq from me. Hardwork, you haven't done any research on the subject, and it shows. Iraq DIDN'T have a working infrastructure prior to the invasion. People were dying left and right, and there was, if you bothered looking into it, a very detailed account by some reporters of streets filled with sewage, no running water, and disease everywhere. The UN did NUMEROUS reports on it, along with other organizations. You don't know your subject, so please refrain from commenting.
As for the CIA publication, they are admitting they made a mistake and overestimated our intel. How is that bad? Just because we have the best intel in the world doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.
At this point, I can't take you very seriously regarding this subject due to your lack of knowledge, and therefore will not engage any more of your questions.
As for Tibet, it's a black eye for China as far as global image goes because people seem to be believing the Tibetans. Not saying the Tibetans are right or wrong, but PR is a monster, and China is feeding it.
shrub
04-10-2008, 07:04 AM
Theocracy and a feudal system :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
I hope some dialogue may be established by CPC/CCP leaders and da lai la ma.
direct communications--
I also hope, that da lai la ma may visit his homeland during his life time.
I also hope --
--
politics is like a wind or tide that comes and goes.
politics is like the clouds in the sky, it may assume many and many shapes, it is here and then it is gone.
politics is like the weather, sometimes it rains, sometimes it is sunny, and sometimes it is only cloudy and thunder with no rains.
--
buddhism was persecuted and almost wiped out in tibet in 877 only to return 100 years later in 978.
--
da lai means ocean, the title was awarded in 1578.
--
buddhism evolved into "agricultural enslavement".
buddhism---
--
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/tib_timeline.htm
whatever it is better for most of the people.
a good leader no matter han or tibetan would do.
--
I hope
--
:D;):p
another major thing;
is that both shao lin abbot or da lai are closedly related to the government
or the government either mongols, qing etc awarded the title or name/ appoint the person.
for example;
qing installed the 7th da lai la ma in 1720 after driving out mongols occupying lhasa.
--
british occupied lhasa in 1904.
british dismissed in 1924-25.
--
politics
--
HardWork8
04-10-2008, 08:51 AM
And here is a last one from me:
Ok...last and final comment on Iraq from me. Hardwork, you haven't done any research on the subject, and it shows. Iraq DIDN'T have a working infrastructure prior to the invasion. People were dying left and right, and there was, if you bothered looking into it, a very detailed account by some reporters of streets filled with sewage, no running water, and disease everywhere. The UN did NUMEROUS reports on it, along with other organizations. You don't know your subject, so please refrain from commenting.
The infra structure was ruined or at least, worsened from idiotic US/UK sanctions.
As for the CIA publication, they are admitting they made a mistake and overestimated our intel. How is that bad? Just because we have the best intel in the world doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.
"We made a mistake" is a famous excuse made by politicians, military and intelligence officials. Meaning,"we didn't have a hidden agenda, we just made an honest mistake, we are idiots, OK."
So that the gullible masses (the cattle) can feel self satisfied and think to themselves "those politicians/military/intelligence are idiots", while they the citizens are being taxed(robbed blind), manipulated and used as cannon fodder.
At this point, I can't take you very seriously regarding this subject due to your lack of knowledge, and therefore will not engage any more of your questions.
One piece of advice. Open your eyes and try and see the bigger picture.
As for Tibet, it's a black eye for China as far as global image goes because people seem to be believing the Tibetans. Not saying the Tibetans are right or wrong, but PR is a monster, and China is feeding it.
As far as the so called War on Terror is concerned, PR is the master too and it is the US(and the UK) who are feeding it.
unkokusai
04-10-2008, 08:08 PM
Ok, if those really were the last ignorant comments on a completely different subject from Basement-Boy, anything else about the actual topic of this thread?
Maybe about the blue and white jumpsuit goon squad, or the world leaders' decisions to attend the opening ceremonies or not?
personally, it is better that other country's leaders not to attend the opening ceremony.
security for athletes and family is already a headache.
the recent crack of a terrorist group.
there were plots from this group to kidnap the athletes in the games.
--
it will be a nightmare just to keep everyone and tourists safe.
if a foreign leader is also present--
--
just safe games for all the athletes that everyone is hoping for.
--
:(
is it not that there is this thing called united nations.
would it not be more proper to address all political issues there.
or it is ok that all political activist groups may do whatever with the process of the olympic games?
so let us storm the torch relay runners?
or let us boycott the opening ceremony?
or let us ---
or let us not?
:D:confused::eek::(
HardWork8
04-11-2008, 04:23 AM
Ok, if those really were the last ignorant comments on a completely different subject from Basement-Boy, anything else about the actual topic of this thread?
Maybe about the blue and white jumpsuit goon squad, or the world leaders' decisions to attend the opening ceremonies or not?
Just make sure that you wipe off that retard drool before you continue on acting "intelligent" and "contributing" on the actual topic.
That means, the DIGRESSION from the topic at hand is now OVER!.
So try to focus your retarded brain on the topic at hand and stop provoking people into kicking your little forum butt.
Drake
04-11-2008, 09:31 AM
Just make sure that you wipe off that retard drool before you continue on acting "intelligent" and "contributing" on the actual topic.
That means, the DIGRESSION from the topic at hand is now OVER!.
So try to focus your retarded brain on the topic at hand and stop provoking people into kicking your little forum butt.
Didn't we just have a discussion about why it's immature and unethical to refer to someone as retarded?
BoulderDawg
04-11-2008, 09:39 AM
These two have already destroyed the "Barrack and Hillary" thread. Now it appears they are trying to do this one in to.
That said what we have here in one guy, from what I see, who comes here just to personally insult people and another who has extremely thin skinned and allows himself to be drawn in.
That said I don't understand why someone who leaves snide personally insulting comments is allowed to post here. I've just looked at this guys last 25 posts and 22 of them fit this catagory. Anyway he has over 2,100 posts so I guess what he does here is okay.
HardWork8
04-11-2008, 09:46 AM
:)
Didn't we just have a discussion about why it's immature and unethical to refer to someone as retarded?
And didn't I just explain why I referred to Unkokusai as a retard. In case you forgot, he has been been acting like one with me for a long time and ACROSS the threads, I might add and is first to initiate contact with negative remarks.
But, you haven't noticed that have you? Just like you haven't noticed the discrepancies of the official version of the truth regarding world events, barfed out by our psychopathic leaders.
Did you even attempt to look into the links that I provided and to process the info provided by yourself? Or did you chose to stay in your causey egg shell reality, where the source truth is, wait for it, those gods of honesty and morality, The CIA reports.
Good luck in your chosen path.
HardWork8
04-11-2008, 09:56 AM
These two have already destroyed the "Barrack and Hillary" thread. Now it appears they are trying to do this one in to.
That said what we have here in one guy, from what I see, who comes here just to personally insult people and another who has extremely thin skinned and allows himself to be drawn in.
That said I don't understand why someone who leaves snide personally insulting comments is allowed to post here. I've just looked at this guys last 25 posts and 22 of them fit this catagory. Anyway he has over 2,100 posts so I guess what he does here is okay.
At last some sensible observations. Let me just say that I wouldn't be so "thin skinned" if I hadn't noticed the fact that the poster in question is being allowed to carry on in his ways. Because, he is and most people don't react to him, he does what he pleases.
Meaning, that he picks on whomever he choses without getting a reaction from all or at least most of the posters. When they do react, they tend to target not just the guilty party, but his intended "victim".
I would suggest that the posters take a stronger position towards this nut. Hey if we all call him the "Forum Retard" every time he enters and insults an innocent poster, then I am sure it will have a positive effect, in the long term.;)
unkokusai
04-11-2008, 11:37 AM
So I guess Basement-Boy is addicted to humiliating himself and just can't bring himself to stay on topic, but is there anyone who has anything to say about the actual topic of this thread?
bodhitree
04-11-2008, 12:10 PM
Theocracy and a feudal system :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
Yes, but a self determined kingdom is free of outside influance, no matter how much the Chinese want to twist it to say "Tibetans were slaves". Look at Bhutan, in their recent elections almost all parties were loyal to maintaining Bhutan as a Kingdom with a monarchy and that prevailed.
Did Tibet ASK China to free it?
Did Tibet ASK China to 'develop' it?
Yeah, the Chinese sure are noble in Tibet:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Gosh darn government brainwashing.....
yeah, and forget the great leap forward and the cultural revolution as well,
as long as your economic lifestyle is improving, well then, who cares!
golden arhat
04-11-2008, 02:48 PM
Yes, but a self determined kingdom is free of outside influance, no matter how much the Chinese want to twist it to say "Tibetans were slaves". Look at Bhutan, in their recent elections almost all parties were loyal to maintaining Bhutan as a Kingdom with a monarchy and that prevailed.
Did Tibet ASK China to free it?
Did Tibet ASK China to 'develop' it?
Yeah, the Chinese sure are noble in Tibet:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Gosh darn government brainwashing.....
yeah, and forget the great leap forward and the cultural revolution as well,
as long as your economic lifestyle is improving, well then, who cares!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
GeneChing
02-09-2011, 10:20 AM
I'm posting this here even though it's not Tibet-oriented. I thought there was more on China floods, but all I found in a cursory search was Taiwan has its worst flood in 50 years (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54967) and that didn't fit at all. Hopefully this won't turn into another climate change debate...but it probably will. :rolleyes:
Wheat Jumps to Highest Since 2008 as Chinese Crop Faces Drought (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/02/09/bloomberg1376-LGBUIV1A1I4J01-1I9J3C29TUQ3QQCRP00RH7QULA.DTL)
Wednesday, February 9, 2011
Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Wheat climbed to the highest level since August 2008 in Chicago as drought threatened to damage crops in China, curbing global supplies, and as Middle Eastern and African nations boosted purchases to tackle food inflation.
March-delivery wheat rose as much as 1.1 percent to $8.84 a bushel on the Chicago Board of Trade, the highest for the most- active contract since Aug. 25, 2008, and was at $8.8275 at 10:59 a.m. Paris time. European wheat futures also gained.
Wheat has surged 83 percent in Chicago and more than doubled in Paris in the past year as drought in Russia and floods in Canada and Australia hurt crops. Countries in the Middle East and North Africa are speeding up grain purchases after rising food prices contributed to riots and protests. Now China, the largest wheat producer, is facing severe drought in the main, winter-wheat growing region.
"Wheat is at the center of issues for the market now," said Han Sung Min, a broker at Korea Exchange Bank Futures Co. in Seoul. "China's poor crop weather has fueled concern over tightening supplies after some countries in North Africa and the Middle East rushed to secure food."
World food prices rose to a record in January, the United Nations' Food & Agriculture Organization said on Feb. 3. China raised interest rates for the third time in four months, effective from today, to contain inflation.
Drought Warning
The drought in China's wheat-growing regions may worsen "rapidly" as the weather gets warmer, the Ministry of Agriculture said Feb. 4. The drought affected 35 percent of wheat crops in eight provinces as of that date, it said.
"On the weather front, the drought in China is at center-stage right now, as wheat is starting to come out of dormancy," Paris-based farm adviser Agritel said in a commentary today.
Milling wheat for March delivery traded on NYSE Liffe in Paris rose 0.8 percent to 278.25 euros ($379.89) a metric ton, while November-delivery wheat, the contract with the most volume and greatest open interest, rose 1 percent to 244 euros.
Wheat traded on China's Zhengzhou Commodity Exchange for September delivery, the most-active contract, jumped 5.4 percent to a record 3,006 yuan ($463) a ton on. The exchange had been closed from Feb. 2 for the Lunar New Year break.
Chinese wheat output may have dropped to 114.5 million tons at the last harvest, compared with 115.1 million tons a year earlier, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates. Macquarie expects output to drop a further 4 million tons this year. The USDA will update its outlook today.
Corn Inventories
U.S. wheat reserves on May 31 probably will total 808.3 million bushels, compared with 818 million forecast in January and 976 million a year earlier, a Bloomberg survey showed. World wheat inventories may decline to 177.2 million tons, a survey found, from 178 million estimated by the USDA in January and 197.4 million a year earlier.
The USDA may cut its forecast for world corn inventories before the Northern Hemisphere harvests to 125.4 million tons, from 127 million estimated in January and 147.1 million a year earlier, the survey showed. That would be the lowest level of reserves since 2007.
March-delivery corn rose as much as 0.6 percent to $6.78 a bushel and was last at $6.7775. The price reached $6.825 on Feb. 7, the highest since July 15, 2008.
Soybeans for March delivery gained as much as 0.5 percent to $14.415 a bushel and last traded at $14.38. The price touched $14.525 on Feb. 3, the highest since July 2008.
--With assistance from Luzi Ann Javier in Singapore. Editors: John Deane, Dan Weeks
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