rare hfy clip

[punchdrunk]

http://emsergipe.globo.com/multimidia/?id=17236
its a vid with bruce lee movie clips and then some hung fa yi wing chun! I know they don't share much so enjoy!
P.S. if you want them to share more don't just insult them, make them welcome. i love seeing other takes on training methods etc.

[hhe]

This clip is product of a TV station down in Brazil. No actual technical HFY was show in this particular clip.

[KPM]

This clip is product of a TV station down in Brazil. No actual technical HFY was show in this particular clip.

Well that's good to know, since 90% of this clip is from Bruce Lee flicks that have nothing to do with HFY! :eek: But its typical media coverage. Looks like the news coverage in Brazil isn't much better than the news coverage in the US!

[Liddel]

No actual technical HFY was show in this particular clip.

So the Forms being performed in the background of the Interview with the teacher, are not representitive of HFY ?

What about the shots between movie clips with the two men in black doing a Demo ?

DREW

[anerlich]

if you want them to share more don't just insult them, make them welcome.

I think it's fair to say that approach has already been tried without success.

[Phil Redmond]

So the Forms being performed in the background of the Interview with the teacher, are not representitive of HFY ?

What about the shots between movie clips with the two men in black doing a Demo ?

DREW
I was going to ask the same thing. If the little bit of the forms shown and the techniques performed by the the Sifu were not HFY then what lineage of WC was demonstrated?

[punchdrunk]

hhe are u a hfy practitioner? Just curious why you say there is no hfy in it.

[Eric_H]

Hello,

The man in the video, Alex Magnos, is a HFY teacher in Brazil under Master Benny Meng.

Alex Magnos was a Yip Man WC Sifu (Moy Yat lineage i believe) before he decided to start learning Hung Fa Yi long distance about 3 years ago. To date, Grandmaster Gee has only done 1 workshop in Brazil. The dummy form he is performing in the clip is probably from the Moy Yat lineage.

As for the guys in black, don't know what that's all about, looks like an old movie clip like so much of the Bruce Lee stuff.



Looks like the news coverage in Brazil isn't much better than the news coverage in the US!


Amen!

[Ultimatewingchun]

The guys in black in the clip are HFY - including the wooden dummy moves. I'm sure of it.

And Andrew, you really crack me up, man...:D :cool:

[Wayfaring]

The guys in black in the clip are HFY - including the wooden dummy moves. I'm sure of it.

And Andrew, you really crack me up, man...:D :cool:

The guys I think are HFY from Brazil. The titles - master this and professor that, and the moves - forms in the background, dummy, demos with headgear and other demo stuff - not so much. Or at least nothing that I recognize.

And yes, anerlich is funny enough and well spoken enough to be worth having a pint with for the discussion and entertainment value. ;)

[Savi]

Similar things...
Looks like parts of HFY's Siu Nihm Tau form during the first 1 min 30 sec, but looking at their mechanics I'd have to say they are missing the HFY WC Formula and I would have to say they have not yet learned of other things from HFY for their SNT form...

Not at all HFY...
The Muk Yan Jong in the footage is definitely NOT from Hung Fa Yi.

The Kwan Sau interceptions and following hands don't look like HFY to me.

The demo of the two guys on stage are NOT from HFY.

Just about everything else in that broadcast is NOT HFY.


-------------------------------


And yes, I am a HFY family member.

[Phil Redmond]

Similar things...
Looks like parts of HFY's Siu Nihm Tau form during the first 1 min 30 sec, but looking at their mechanics I'd have to say they are missing the HFY WC Formula and I would have to say they have not yet learned of other things from HFY for their SNT form...

Not at all HFY...
The Muk Yan Jong in the footage is definitely NOT from Hung Fa Yi.

The Kwan Sau interceptions and following hands don't look like HFY to me.

The demo of the two guys on stage are NOT from HFY.

Just about everything else in that broadcast is NOT HFY.


-------------------------------


And yes, I am a HFY family member.
Thanks for the straight answer Savi. You didn't duck and dodge. :)
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I speak Spanish and understand some Portuguese. The narrator clearly said
HFY a few times. The Sifu featured even said HFY. Also, Keith uses his real name here. For you to name call him anonymously says volumes. That knee jerk response doesn't help your cause in the least.

[KPM]

No. I don't speak Portuguese, but I can recognize when the narration mentions "Hung Fa Yi" multiple times. So it doesn't take a genius to conclude that the feature was supposed to be about HFY, and yet when the HFY instructor is speaking what we are seeing in the background is not HFY because, according to you, he is not "allowed" to film any HFY methods. So this is deceptive story telling at its best. Nothing stupid about that conclusion!

Fact 1: The story is promoting HFY in Brazil
Fact 2: Lots of unnecessary filler from Bruce Lee flicks, but hey...that's what attracts viewers!
Fact 3: What is being demonstrated (other than Bruce Lee) is implied to by HFY, since this is a story promoting HFY in Brazil.
Fact 4: What is being demonstrated is NOT HFY!
Fact 5: This is deceptive to anyone watching that doesn't know anything about HFY!
Fact 6: Nothing "stupid" about this conclusion
Fact 7: Whether or not I am an "ahole" remains to be seen, but you can't conclude that from what I posted! :eek:

[Eric_H]

That sounds typical! Geesh.....give me a break! Now the HFY family is deceiving the general public in Brazil??!!! :rolleyes:

Keith, I fail to see any deception. As Savi stated, they are doing a version of HFY SNT in the background. Yes, it does lack certain technical things, but Alex Magnos is most certainly a HFY guy.

As a rule, we as a family don't do videos. Sifu Magnos was granted an exception to promote his school. Trying to keep the HFY shown to a minimum is not deceiving in any way.

[MarkJ]

Hello
I for one don't speak portuguese so can't comment on the commentary or the context of the interview, so unless KPM is fluent in the aforementioned language, to state that HFY are deceiving the public in Brazil could well be taken as an inflamatory remark. ;)

I do know that Alex Magnos is a member of the HFY family, but knowing that he comes from a Yip Man background and is certified to teach, who here is to say what material he may or may not present to the public ? or to what extent he had control over the TV presentation.

Obviously the Bruce Lee stuff is not HFY, nor the wooden dummy (looks like the opening of YM dummy). As Savi stated at about 1.30 looks like a part of HFY SNT form without the detail expected from students with exposure to the formula. So looking at that part only, from the perspective of the four big seals I can recognize some of it as HFYSNT.

ATB
Mark

[duende]

Guys,

The TV clip from our school in Brazil was already explained. Sifu Alex Magnos is just teaching the best he can while he himself is learning HFY and transitioning from his prior YM program.

As for no secrets in KF in the 21st century?? Ha! That's a joke. I guarantee you that every single WC school has their own "insider" knowledge. No big deal.

However, this is not the case in this instance.

Beginning students are discouraged from making videos for the public simply because from this point in their learning... what would documented ultimately is a video full of structure/space distortions and lack of true HFY body karma/awareness.


Our concern is that these incorrect documents would then be past down and transfered to other students. Bringing in self-interpretations into the system and before you know it, the true identity is lost.

We base our system learning on what we call Hou Chun San Sau. Direct learning... therefore much less personal misinterpretations can be had, and when they do, they are corrected first hand.

Due to popular demand ;) :p.... we plan to make legitimate HFY videos direct from our HQ in SF under the guidence of our GM. But until then, don't expect to see any video's from our members.

Best to all, and good luck with the training!



PS... on another note. TV in Latin America sensationalizes EVERYTHING. That's just how their TV culture is. It would be wise to take this into consideration upon viewing the news clip.

[Liddel]

Thanks Savi that was quite simple and to the point.

If Mr 8 posts hhe, actually said something to that effect in the first place we could have avoided all this B S.

HFY is written on the baseline key in the interview etc (the on screen Graphic at the bottom)

Ever see a Car commercial where they have a baseline key saying "overseas model shown". Perhaps they should have put a "Ip Man VT shown" key at the bottom of this clip :rolleyes: :cool:


PS... on another note. TV in Latin America sensationalizes EVERYTHING. That's just how their TV culture is.

Duende, you obviously dont watch FOX NEWS. LOL

[anerlich]

I see few sincere efforts to help "understanding" - which lead to the accusations of secrecy, though there is little evidence that anything unique lies beneath the veils.

[duende]

Duende, you obviously dont watch FOX NEWS. LOL


Touche' :D

Actually I try to not have any TV in the house whatsoever. But somehow, with every new season of "Project Runway" my girlfriend manages to drag one in! :rolleyes:

I'm happy with watching Battlestar Galactica DVD's on my computer.

[KPM]

Keith, I fail to see any deception. As Savi stated, they are doing a version of HFY SNT in the background. Yes, it does lack certain technical things, but Alex Magnos is most certainly a HFY guy.

As a rule, we as a family don't do videos. Sifu Magnos was granted an exception to promote his school. Trying to keep the HFY shown to a minimum is not deceiving in any way.


Let's say you're watching a news clip about a new Jaguar dealership in town. 80% of the video footage is of people driving around in all kinds of cars, none of which are Jaguars. But that's ok, because you realize that its just filler as the news person talks about the background of the Jaguar company. But now let's say the footage cuts to an interview with the owner of the new dealership. He is obviously talking about Jaguars, but you notice that the car parked in the background is a Cadillac with a Jaguar hood ornament. Wouldn't you be wondering what's going on? Wouldn't you see that as a bit deceptive? Now let's say you asked about this and were told that the Jaguar Headquarters won't allow that dealer to film any of its cars. Wouldn't you be wondering what's up at Jaguar HQ? Why would someone do a promotional spot for their new service or product, and then purposely show the public that they are promoting it too something that is not the actual product they are selling? Whether intentional or not, that seems to me to be a little deceptive.

[Savi]

Here is a post from a student under Sifu Alex Magnos:
Hello everybody,

My name is Cesar and i live in Aracaju, Sergipe - Brazil. I am one of sifu Alex Magnos' s students here. I was present in Aracaju when this video by TV Sergipe was made. In fact, in my personal opinion, the final edition and report presented by this network was a fiasco. They totally misinterpreted the information not only about Bruce Lee, but also about Anderson Barreto, who is not a HFY teacher in Brazil.

It seems they are very slow to understand about families and other points concerning Kung fu. So when it comes to kung fu, many people here tend to think of Bruce Lee only and that's the reason why he was present on the report.

So again, Anderson Barreto is not a HFY teacher, and this and all the other mistakes, including Bruce Lee's participation, come from the TV network only.

Best wishes, Cesar A.

[punchdrunk]

wow, thanx for the info guys and the general level of respect. I hope the instuctor in the clip is not offended by the criticisms of his students training. they seem to have come from hfy guys anyway though. Hopefully more will be shared in the future so that hfy can be recognised for whatever is unique to them. experience can only make us all better students. Peace.

[KPM]

Here is a post from a student under Sifu Alex Magnos:

Thanks for the input Savi. It sounds like even the guys in Brazil would view that clip as deceptive and inaccurate.

[KPM]

Keith, your attack on HFY is very deceptive.

I'm not attacking anyone. But what does urk me is the secrecy surrounding HFY. Its an out-dated attitude in modern society. This clip was rather deceptive in how it portrayed HFY. I thought that was obvious. I think others did too. But some of the HFY faithful didn't think so. So I had to point out the obvious. If you see that as an attack on HFY, then I apologize. That is not what I intended. And besides, if you want to talk about attacks, YOU were the one that called ME an ahole!

[tbone]

I'm not attacking anyone. But what does urk me is the secrecy surrounding HFY. Its an out-dated attitude in modern society. This clip was rather deceptive in how it portrayed HFY. I thought that was obvious. I think others did too. But some of the HFY faithful didn't think so. So I had to point out the obvious. If you see that as an attack on HFY, then I apologize. That is not what I intended. And besides, if you want to talk about attacks, YOU were the one that called ME an ahole!Keith and others that think there is some secrecy to HFY... not showing video of them does not equate to secrecy. I'm fortunate enough to live near a HFY club so I could go check them out first hand. I realize that many others don't have the same situation as I and you may be frustrated that they don't have video for you to evaluate. Still this is not secrecy.

All I did to see HFY was give a call and show up to class. I've seen invitations extended right here on this forum but some people haven't taken the HFY guys up on the invite.

They generally don't believe in video because they feel much is lost when their system is communicated that way. Big deal. That does not mean they are secretive.

edited to add this...

My name is Tony Myers and I live in Kansas City. Don't want to be thought of as posting anonymously. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

. . . I've seen invitations extended right here on this forum but some people haven't taken the HFY guys up on the invite. . .
Hi Tony, a student of mine was invited but when I offered to accept an invitation I got no response as of yet.
PR

[JPinAZ]

Hi Tony, a student of mine was invited but when I offered to accept an invitation I got no response as of yet.
PR

haha - not really trying to drag this thread down any further, but Phil, are you implying that you are awaiting a formal, personal invite to come see HFY for yourself? That's a bit much don't you think? You 'offered to accept an invitation'?? why not just go see what it's about for yourself? Now you feel people need special invites from HFY? :rolleyes:
C'mon man, you lived in Detroit for some time, and there was a workshop just 4 hours or so drive to ohio every year for the past what, 8-9 years? You could have made the trip and seen for yourself if you were really interested. But now you're waiting for your personal invite...

Looks guys, it's really not that big a deal - like Tony said, all someone has to do is stop in at one of the kwoons/clubs. Or, go to one of the many public workshops that happen each year all over the country (california, arizona, texas, ohio, new york, etc)
Nothing secret about anything.

Jonathan

** edit - thanks Tbone for your honesty

[anerlich]

They generally don't believe in video because they feel much is lost when their system is communicated that way. Big deal. That does not mean they are secretive.

I don't regard an organisation that put a 222 page book as "secretive".

I think the issue many have with HFY are that they make claims about their system, some of which border on the grandiose, but are unwilling to properly answer the many legit questions begged by those claims. There are terms for such behaviour - marketing, propaganda, etc.

I live in Australia. I could pay large amounts of money to go visit, but a cost benefit analysis indicates my best course of events is to make a judgement call on the veracity of available info. Which I have.

The last TWC guy mentioned on this forum that went to an HFY kwoon didn't have a particularly positive experience, IIRC.

[KPM]

Keith and others that think there is some secrecy to HFY... not showing video of them does not equate to secrecy.

Hey Tony!

Video is just a small part of it. Stick around, you'll see. Or go back and do a search in the forum for past threads concerning HFY. But Andrew is right, maybe "secrecy" is not exactly the right word for it. Maybe "obscuration" is a better word? Let's just say "not very forthcoming" and leave it at that. :)

[JPinAZ]

The last TWC guy mentioned on this forum that went to an HFY kwoon didn't have a particularly positive experience, IIRC.

And then an all-expense paid invite to a following seminar was offered to make up for the misunderstanding. So, maybe one should share and consider the whole story before passing any judgement on that. And what about the other TWC's guys that visited and had a positive experience where much information was shared?
And you want to talk about propaganda... :rolleyes:

[CHS]

Guys, it is just a clip.... don't have to nit-pick or dissect it to the microscope level. Whether it is bringing more awareness about HFY or a marketing tool, it is their prerogative. I am sure some other Yip Man lineages did the samething too.

If you all want to foster better relationship, why not give each other some room and benefit of doubts?

Just my 2 cents.
CHS

[anerlich]

And then an all-expense paid invite to a following seminar was offered to make up for the misunderstanding.

And if I had been in that position I probably would have told him to jam it as well.

Propaganda? I'm not trying to SELL anything or convince people to visit and taste the Kool-Aid.

[anerlich]

If you all want to foster better relationship, why not give each other some room and benefit of doubts?


That has also been tried without success.

[Savi]

All,
We can only communicate our personal experiences, and personally, I've probably contributed a greater deal of HFY info here on KFO than most other HFY members. So when someone says that HFY isn't forthcoming, I've got two things to say to that:

1. You're only looking at one side of the coin, because I've shared a whole lot here over the years. So have several others, so a person can't in all truthfulness say we don't share. I give you a slice of cake, and you complain because you want the whole d@mn cake. You have to earn it.

2. In all seriousness, why the hell would I want to tell you how my kung fu works? We're dealing with martial arts. Fighting. Sparring. Training. To me, my kung fu is as personal as my social security number, my bank account info, my personal life story. For that matter, it's no one's call what I choose to share about it to the public. It's not about being secretive. It's about not being any of your business. It's called boundaries. If you want to learn more, you gotta put the hands on it.

I don't take stock in learning martial arts online, and certain (if not the majority of) questions are best answered in person. Quite obviously, Kung fu is learned in person. Everything else is just words.

I could take personal offense whenever someone calls HFY a cult, says we're being secretive, or whatever. For people who talk that kinda sh!t, all I can say is that type of thinking will never get you far.

As far as relationship building, Andrew give me a break. You are the last person looking to build a relationship with the HFY family. Stop posting like you're some angel whose done nothing but show good will to HFY. ;)

Regards,
Savi.

[anerlich]

all I can say is that type of thinking will never get you far.

Yep. We'll never match Tom Cruise and John Travolta.


You are the last person looking to build a relationship with the HFY family.

Actually, I think Victor, Terence, Alan Orr, Robert Chu et al are giving me a run for my money. Sorry if I missed anyone that wanted in on that list.


Stop posting like you're some angel whose done nothing but show good will to HFY.

You're a riiot, Savi. I don't think anyone entertains that, especially not me. Whatever goodwill I had for you zealots was exhausted shortly after I reviewed MKF on the forum. I have no interest in building relationships with WC's version of Scientology. Ask Tony Jacobs if he's still got his $5, BTW.

[Savi]

Actually, I think Victor, Terence, Alan Orr, Robert Chu et al are giving me a run for my money. Sorry if I missed anyone that wanted in on that list.

You're a riiot, Savi. I don't think anyone entertains that, especially not me. Whatever goodwill I had for you zealots was exhausted shortly after I reviewed MKF on the forum. I have no interest in building relationships with WC's version of Scientology. Ask Tony Jacobs if he's still got his $5, BTW.Zealots and Scientologists... "$5" and Tony Jacobs... and even more name dropping of people who aren't even on this thread.

Like I said, you're FAR from building any positive relationships with HFY. Thanks for the MKF review. I'll give you that much. As far as your "welcoming arms" to HFY, forget it.

Originally posted by CHS
If you all want to foster better relationship, why not give each other some room and benefit of doubts?

Originally posted by Anerlich
And if I had been in that position I probably would have told him to jam it as well.
Originally posted by Anerlich
Propaganda? I'm not trying to SELL anything or convince people to visit and taste the Kool-Aid.
Originally posted by Anerlich
That has also been tried without success.You, Anerlich, foster good will and better relationships? With comments like yours, who exactly are you trying to kid? Your view of HFY is as clear as the noise on KFO.

I'll pass at handing you a shovel. Your posts save me a lot of typing. You're doing just fine.

Cheerio,
Savi.

[hhe]

Anerlich, when you are in every HFY discussions on the forum, I think you are trying really hard to have a relationship with the HFY family. Victor, Terence, Alan Orr, Robert Chu and yourself have earn the title of “HFY stalker”

[Phil Redmond]

. . . C'mon man, you lived in Detroit for some time, and there was a workshop just 4 hours or so drive to ohio every year for the past what, 8-9 years? You could have made the trip and seen for yourself if you were really interested. But now you're waiting for your personal invite...
When I went to the VT Museum for a Sifu William Cheung seminar they were doing Moy Yat WC. Also the issues here didn't present themselves until I moved to NJ.
Someone did invite a TWC "begginer". He wouldn't have known what to look for in a WC lineage. Whereas a close student of Cheung Sifu would have.

[Ned]

Just let it be Anerlich ... but you can't.
I think it's fair to say that approach has NOT been tried, eh?
Anyways, it looks to me the zealot and scientologist of HFY attachement is on ya.
now back to your normal stalking program as I'm sure this will have no profound impact on your HFY attachement.
I have to agree with some other basher, you really crack me up too.

Phil, let it go, it's in the past.

[KPM]

Hi Savi!

I've probably contributed a greater deal of HFY info here on KFO than most other HFY members.

---This is true. Thanks for being one of the few that are willing to actually engage in conversation.

so a person can't in all truthfulness say we don't share.

--Ok. Then let's just say that what you are willing to share is somewhat limited.

In all seriousness, why the hell would I want to tell you how my kung fu works?

---Uhhh, maybe because this is a Wing Chun kung fu forum and that's what we come here talk about???? :confused:

It's not about being secretive. It's about not being any of your business. It's called boundaries.

---Then why come here at all? Most of us are here to talk about Wing Chun. If you're not, then why are you here?

I don't take stock in learning martial arts online, and certain (if not the majority of) questions are best answered in person. Quite obviously, Kung fu is learned in person. Everything else is just words.

---No disputing that. And no one is out to learn HFY online. We're here to talk and compare and analyze because we are interested in Wing Chun in all its varieties. If you aren't willing to share much info about your particular variety, then how do you expect to keep from being called "secretive"?

I could take personal offense whenever someone calls HFY a cult, says we're being secretive, or whatever. For people who talk that kinda sh!t, all I can say is that type of thinking will never get you far.

---Hey! If the shoe fits, don't cry out too loud! Look the HFY people who came to the defense of that video clip when one of the HFY guys in Brazil that was involved in its making called it a total fiasco!

Stop posting like you're some angel whose done nothing but show good will to HFY.

---I don't think anyone would call Andrew an angel. Except maybe his mother. :)

[Chango]

I think this video serves the general public well. I can't say I know exactly what is being said. Concidering I don't speak the language. But from what I do see it's a video that opens a discussion of Wing Chun. I like the fact that it is bringing Wing chun to a person who might not be exposed to this great art! My brazilian kung fu brother is now a HFY member so it only stands to reason that this would be his topic of discussion. I personally do not see any reason why he should not demonstrate some of his other Wing Chun skils. I don't think a disclaimer should have to be in place to display different wing chun skills. Do we now have Wing Chun police? LOL!

Excuse me sir did you know how fast you we're going when you did that Tan Sau?
LOL!


Come on gents I'm sure we can use this forum in a more productive manner!It can have much more potential! ;)

[osprey3883]

Someone did invite a TWC "begginer". He wouldn't have known what to look for in a WC lineage. Whereas a close student of Cheung Sifu would have.

Phil,
So whats your point? Are you ****ed cause you didn't get invited to the prom? There should be another NY area seminar this year, if you are interested contact the hosting Sifu when it is announced and register like any other participant. It's as easy as that.

Matt

[JPinAZ]

When I went to the VT Museum for a Sifu William Cheung seminar they were doing Moy Yat WC. Also the issues here didn't present themselves until I moved to NJ.
Someone did invite a TWC "begginer". He wouldn't have known what to look for in a WC lineage. Whereas a close student of Cheung Sifu would have.


..but when I offered to accept an invitation I got no response as of yet.

I think you are still missing the whole point. The invite was to the 'beginner' because of the misunderstanding that happened previously - to show good will. Now you turn it into you feeling left out because you didn't get your own private invite to some see HFY for yourself. What a joke.
Why do you feel, because you are a close student of anybody, that you deserve some special treatment or invite from HFY? You want to see something, get off your but and go see it! Instead you complain that you still are waiting for your own special invite :confused: Do you really believe that is how things go. Keep waiting for your invite... it's in the mail :rolleyes:

This makes me think of a good point Savi made. " I give you a slice of cake, and you complain because you want the whole d@mn cake." Nothing seems to ever be good enough for some people. People from HFY come and share a good amount of info on this forum and others, and then people demand the whole system be explained on a forum. Phil feels he's entitled to a private invite from HFY all because he's a senior guy in a different WC and one was offered to his 'beginner' student. It seems that for some here (and elsewhere I'm sure), nothing will ever be good enough. Oh well, get over it is what I say.

IMO, Unless you are willing to do more than log into a forum from time to time, either get off your butt if you want to see more, or be happpy with what you can get off the internet and stop all the whining - HFY doesn't owe anybody anything!

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,
So whats your point? Are you ****ed cause you didn't get invited to the prom? There should be another NY area seminar this year, if you are interested contact the hosting Sifu when it is announced and register like any other participant. It's as easy as that.

Matt
****ed? . . . No . . lol

[Phil Redmond]

I think you are still missing the whole point. The invite was to the 'beginner' because of the misunderstanding that happened previously - to show good will. Now you turn it into you feeling left out because you didn't get your own private invite to some see HFY for yourself. What a joke.
Why do you feel, because you are a close student of anybody, that you deserve some special treatment or invite from HFY? You want to see something, get off your but and go see it! Instead you complain that you still are waiting for your own special invite :confused: Do you really believe that is how things go. Keep waiting for your invite... it's in the mail :rolleyes:

This makes me think of a good point Savi made. " I give you a slice of cake, and you complain because you want the whole d@mn cake." Nothing seems to ever be good enough for some people. People from HFY come and share a good amount of info on this forum and others, and then people demand the whole system be explained on a forum. Phil feels he's entitled to a private invite from HFY all because he's a senior guy in a different WC and one was offered to his 'beginner' student. It seems that for some here (and elsewhere I'm sure), nothing will ever be good enough. Oh well, get over it is what I say.

IMO, Unless you are willing to do more than log into a forum from time to time, either get off your butt if you want to see more, or be happpy with what you can get off the internet and stop all the whining - HFY doesn't owe anybody anything!
It's obvious where the whining is coming from. I can say one thing for sure. Savi has you beat at diplomacy. At least he knows how grown men should discuss things.

[JPinAZ]

Phil,

I'm not Savi, nor am I competing with him. People handle things differently. I only came on here after you complained about not getting your HFY invite after your beginner did. Now it seems you want to resort to somwehat ofr a personal attack and skip the issue. Is that how 'grown men' discuss things?

You still never answered. Since it was you that brought it up, why is it that you feel you are entitled this honor from HFY regarding a personal invite? And why not take matt's advice and just go see it for yourself?

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

I'm not Savi, nor am I competing with him. People handle things differently. I only came on here after you complained about not getting your HFY invite after your beginner did. Now it seems you want to resort to somwehat ofr a personal attack and skip the issue. Is that how 'grown men' discuss things?

You still never answered. Since it was you that brought it up, why is it that you feel you are entitled this honor from HFY regarding a personal invite? And why not take matt's advice and just go see it for yourself?
Because of the ongoing discussion about similarities between HFY and TWC.
A beginner wouldn't have the expertise to make a comparison. Also two men can disagree and still be civil. I don't say anything online that I won't say to a man's face. I don't resort to name calling, insults, or grade school rants. Now I hope you don't twist this into a personal attack.

[brazilusa]

Hello, I make it to Brazil when I can. I went to school there in college. When i go I will definitely check them out and report back. I just sent an email out to my aunt and she may find out a little more. I used to go to a 5 animal school in Brazil and honestly I haven't seen them do anything good as far as news coverage down there on martial arts unless its BJJ, luta livre or capoeira-aka Brazilian. Although I think there was a Tien Shan Pai video out there that is good. Shows many of the forms.

Anyone out there in Michigan?

[Liddel]

Phil,
it seems you want to resort to somwehat of a personal attack and skip the issue.

From where im sitting Phils not attacking anyone.... besides which,

Mate are you a Martial artist ? harden the phuck up.

Its a real shame these HFY threads go to the dogs.

When i think about the fact were all learning a fighting art it makes one realise that this forum bs is akin to having a cry when someone calls you a name LOL.

Chuck lost badly to Rampage but is he having a cry...

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98

:cool:
DREW

[JPinAZ]

Because of the ongoing discussion about similarities between HFY and TWC A beginner wouldn't have the expertise to make a comparison.

hmm.. I thought whatever 'ongoing' discussion about any comparisons you think is still going on died the same time that thread did - and that was quite some time ago. The only reason it might be ongoing is because you are bringing it up again.

But, FWIW, I think neither HFY nor TWC needs anyone to come scruitinize and make comparisons. As I see it, this is out of place in kung fu cutlure. Would you think it's correct to walk into, say, a praying mantis school and expect to compare your system with thiers? They would most likely laugh.
There's a difference between coming to learn and coming to compare. And I think one approach would be met with a more open attitude over the other. I am sure you know this.


Also two men can disagree and still be civil.
Agreed

I don't say anything online that I won't say to a man's face. I don't resort to name calling, insults, or grade school rants. Now I hope you don't twist this into a personal attack.

Well, that's good to know. I wouldn't expect anything less, and feel the same way. Maybe you are trying to imply something here? probably not since you don't seem like the type that would beat around the bush and are straight up about how you feel. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Due to popular demand .... we plan to make legitimate HFY videos direct from our HQ in SF under the guidence of our GM. But until then, don't expect to see any video's from our members." (duende - from post#17 on this thread)


***SO when can we expect to see these videos from HQ in SF up for sale?

[osprey3883]

Hello,
My understanding is that the videos will be clips of HFY. I don't think we will ever see HFY videos for sale from HQ.
Just my 2 cents,
Matt

[Ultimatewingchun]

So when will the video clips be up?

[KPM]

Hello,
My understanding is that the videos will be clips of HFY. I don't think we will ever see HFY videos for sale from HQ.
Just my 2 cents,
Matt

And why is that?

[osprey3883]

And why is that?

Keith,
Looking at your website it mentions you are a Doctor, so I know you are a smart person. Why is it then that here at KFO you come across more like a gossip or someone trying to stir the pot? Are you really asking why HFY will not be documenting and offering for sale our system after all the previous threads here at KFO? If so I would say from here you come across as having 100% book smarts but 0 street smarts.

Matt

[KPM]

Keith,
Looking at your website it mentions you are a Doctor, so I know you are a smart person. Why is it then that here at KFO you come across more like a gossip or someone trying to stir the pot? Are you really asking why HFY will not be documenting and offering for sale our system after all the previous threads here at KFO? If so I would say from here you come across as having 100% book smarts but 0 street smarts.

Matt

Thanks for checking out my website. :) I asked the question because I wanted to hear the justification. You are correct. After all that I have read here I would be very surprised to see HFY instructional videos hit the market. But, then again, there was the book! So who can really say? But really....why should HFY be hesitant to offer videos? Why be afraid to show your stuff? It seems odd that the HFY family seems interested in spreading on an international scale, yet they hesitate to actually show people what their system is like.

The only "pot" I stir here on KFO is the one that tries to get the HFY guys to actually open up and share something substantial.....to be willing to actually engage in an open conversation without hiding things behind technical jargon, telling us we haven't "earned" that information, or shrugging us off with "you need to visit a HFY school." I mean no ill will towards the HFY family.

If you care to go back and read prior posts of mine you will see that I had the same attitude with Hendrik Santos some time back for the same reasons. He would come here and ask about other people's Wing Chun, but when questioned about his own Cho family Wing Chun he was not willing to share any real information.

My attitude is this....if you are going to frequent a Wing Chun discussion forum, you darn well better be prepared to discuss your Wing Chun! If you aren't willing to share on equal footing with the rest of the people here, then you haven't "earned" the right to talk to us! Maybe I'm in a small minority that sees it that way. But I still have the right to express that opinion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"My attitude is this....if you are going to frequent a Wing Chun discussion forum, you darn well better be prepared to discuss your Wing Chun! If you aren't willing to share on equal footing with the rest of the people here, then you haven't 'earned' the right to talk to us! Maybe I'm in a small minority that sees it that way. But I still have the right to express that opinion." (KPM)


***Actually, Keith...I think you're in the majority. :D

[Savi]

In my opinion, it comes down to one thing, and that is there is so much in the HFY system that is simply not in many other Wing Chun systems which cannot be discussed in depth without direct experience. Yes, there is a great deal of technical “jargon” that not too many people are familiar with, but much of the jargon is actually HFY hou kuit. The specific terminologies that are unique to HFY are difficult to communicate without having directly gone through the teachings. This is true for any teachings of Wing Chun. Experience is a requirement. Yet, when trying to discuss things HFY related, we generally get accused of four things:

1. “Your talk is all marketing, and it’s just repackaged Wing Chun.”

2. “Oh, we have that too. You’re just using different words to sound different. More marketing.”

3. “Now you are just being secretive, unwilling, and afraid to share.”

4. “It is the exact same thing we do. I don’t need to believe otherwise. I don’t even need to see it. I’m sure it’s the same. What? A video? When can I buy one?”

So for most of those HFY members engaged on KFO, it becomes exceedingly difficult to have a deep conversation with non-HFY folk when there is not enough common ground to begin with, simultaneously avoiding comments like the ones above. If we stay true to HFY language, we shut everyone else out. If we water it down to simple English, it sounds like what we do is the same as others (but we don’t). Trying to maintain a balance in between is a tough thing to do without getting accused of things.

Let me tell you something. There are generations of HFY members stemming as far back as 1975 here in the US. Do you think that included in those hundreds of people who have learned HFY don’t have any alternative Wing Chun backgrounds? Do you think those people say the same four things above? To say otherwise is ultimately, indirectly or directly, a shot at the integrity of the HFY family. HFY is not a modern regurgitation of other Wing Chun. It doesn’t matter how you cut it. Common sense: NO ONE appreciates being called anything that is not true.

I’ve gone through the Ip Man system. I learned it all the way through the weaponry and to a large degree, my training and teaching involved more than 40 hours a week above my normal 40 hr daytime job. I am confident enough to say that the cumulative knowledge I have in Ip Man Ving Tsun cannot be compared to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun because they are just too different. Even though, yes, they are both Wing Chun. The deeper you go, the more different it gets. I have learned and trained more than enough of both to know that the truth is contrary to any of the four comments I’ve listed above. I’ve sat down and watched videos of TWC published on the internet, and I know enough of Hung Fa Yi to say that it is also a different system. I know enough of Ip Man and HFY (through the kung fu, culture, and history), to say what Ip Man taught, and what GM Gee teaches, are very different systems.

So, after years of online conversations, going from the educational to the confrontational, the only option to maintain educational interests is via hands-on teaching and direct experience. That’s not marketing. That is the most practical vehicle of education. The MKF book was a promotional piece to help preserve the existence of HFY, it is not an instructional book. Even with more HFY books on the horizon, and a video in the works, neither will offer instruction on “how-to-do” HFY. This should illustrate that despite public interaction and publications, we hold to the importance that HFY must be learned hands-on.

But then Keith asked, “Why engage online at all?” Because Hung Fa Yi is still Wing Chun, and despite the many uniqueness’s of it, there are still similarities to other Wing Chun that can be discussed. Not to mention, someone like me is still interested in sharing. The HFY family has independent thinkers, despite common belief. Are conversations limited? I would say only under the circumstances presented on this forum, very little can actually be discussed.

Does HFY have some very passionate members? Of course it does. We also have our own internal struggles, just as any other family would. Then again, the HFY family comes from all walks of life. The interest of the other HFY members who wanted to discuss HFY here are long gone, in my opinion. The circumstances today still aren’t conducive to educational talks, so unfortunately you are left with a small few. And we still have to deal with those four points listed above, if not more. What else can I tell you? This forum is just another website. It’s not life. We’re all free to come and go. It has nothing to do with earning the right to talk here. I talk about Wing Chun, but Keith, your opinion ignores the history of discussions here. For me, it’s the other way around. If “you” (generally speaking) want to inquire about HFY, you’d better have some respect for HFY first, if you want to get far. Am I complaining? Hell no. Do I care? No. But don’t come up to me and tell me I have to open up to you, everything I know.

Regards,
Savi.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks for checking out my website. :)

My attitude is this....if you are going to frequent a Wing Chun discussion forum, you darn well better be prepared to discuss your Wing Chun! If you aren't willing to share on equal footing with the rest of the people here, then you haven't "earned" the right to talk to us! Maybe I'm in a small minority that sees it that way. But I still have the right to express that opinion.


***Actually, Keith...I think you're in the majority. :D

Woah! Am I in the majority here too!?? :eek:

Just really popping in here as times are busy. It seems to me that everyone argues over the past, but what about the present?

While we're on the subject of sharing, how about checking out my site!?? :) My gardens a bl**dy mess!!

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Projects/present/present.html

[hhe]

Well said, Savi.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hey, BrazilUSA:

I'm Marcelo Santos, from Rio de Janeiro, the first HFY student in Brasil (2003). I have nothing to do with that video, produced by practitioners from the Northeast of my Country, and I really do not want to comment on them.

Anyways, since you come to Brasil from time to time, I want to invite you to know our Kwoon (www.sanchijin.com.br) and spend some time with us. Beyond Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, we have classes of (Military) Sambo, Submission Grappling, San Da and Tai Chi Chuan. I myself also cross-train with the team of the Luta-Livre legend, Alexandre Pequeno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmcZ4mQHqyE).

Drop me a line whenever you come to Brasil and let's have some fun by training hard and friendly.

Sincerely,

Marcelo
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
tenebras@uol.com.nr
marcelo.alexandrino@trtrio.gov.br

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In my opinion, it comes down to one thing, and that is there is so much in the HFY system that is simply not in many other Wing Chun systems which cannot be discussed in depth without direct experience." (Savi)


***AND IN MY OPINION, Savi...this is pure spin and hype. Of course it could be discussed. But enough about all this. I'm really not all that interested anymore - thanks to all the secrecy and spin. Much ado about nothing.

[JPinAZ]

Very well said Sihing Savi. What you write here also expresses many of the things I feel and think (regarding HFY, as well as online discussions of WC in general); while maybe not being able to express with such clarity myself at times :)
Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I feel what you write here might be echoed by others, and not just from the HFY family alone. Hopefully your well intentioned post gives everyone a little something to think about and a better understanding of where some of us are coming from when posting here and trying to share.

Jonathan

[KPM]

Hi Savi!

---Thanks for the reasoned and sensible reply. Some comments below:


In my opinion, it comes down to one thing, and that is there is so much in the HFY system that is simply not in many other Wing Chun systems which cannot be discussed in depth without direct experience.

---Ok. I am willing to accept that idea. But it seems you are one of the few that are even willing to try.

Yes, there is a great deal of technical “jargon” that not too many people are familiar with, but much of the jargon is actually HFY hou kuit.

---But I get the distinct impression that a lot of it is simply "dazzle them with brilliance" terminology and unnecessary.


when trying to discuss things HFY related, we generally get accused of four things:

1. “Your talk is all marketing, and it’s just repackaged Wing Chun.”

---I think that this stims from the fact that a lot of the technical jargon turns out to be just a different name for something everyone is familiar with. This goes along with my point just above.

2. “Oh, we have that too. You’re just using different words to sound different. More marketing.”

---See above. Same applies. I believe you when you say there is a lot in HFY that is not in other WCK systems. But there is also a lot that is! Otherwise it wouldn't be WCK! When we keep hearing dazzling technical jargon for things that everyone is doing, then you are going to naturally get points 1 & 2 of your list. But when you say that something is NOT the same as we think it is, but then are either unwilling or unable to explain why........

3. “Now you are just being secretive, unwilling, and afraid to share.”

.......you get point 3 on your list.


So for most of those HFY members engaged on KFO, it becomes exceedingly difficult to have a deep conversation with non-HFY folk when there is not enough common ground to begin with,

---Is HFY Wing Chun, or isn't it?

If we stay true to HFY language, we shut everyone else out. If we water it down to simple English, it sounds like what we do is the same as others (but we don’t). Trying to maintain a balance in between is a tough thing to do without getting accused of things.

---Now that I find hard to swallow. If the differences are that large, they should be easy enough to explain. If they aren't.........

HFY is not a modern regurgitation of other Wing Chun. It doesn’t matter how you cut it. Common sense: NO ONE appreciates being called anything that is not true.

---They why the hesitation to prove everyone wrong! Why not CLEARLY explain the huge differences? Why not put out videos showing just how different HFY is from the rest?

I am confident enough to say that the cumulative knowledge I have in Ip Man Ving Tsun cannot be compared to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun because they are just too different. Even though, yes, they are both Wing Chun.

---With your background in both, and the huge differences that exist....why is it so hard to describe and explain those differences? An apple is very different from an orange, which makes it easy to describe. A Johnny Smith apple isn't so different from a red delicious apple, which makes it harder to describe.

The MKF book was a promotional piece to help preserve the existence of HFY, it is not an instructional book. Even with more HFY books on the horizon, and a video in the works,

---So...is there going to be HFY videos or not? You've said one thing, Matt said something different.


The circumstances today still aren’t conducive to educational talks, so unfortunately you are left with a small few.

---But ask yourself.....what created those circumstances?

And we still have to deal with those four points listed above, if not more. What It has nothing to do with earning the right to talk here. I talk about Wing Chun, but Keith, your opinion ignores the history of discussions here. For me, it’s the other way around. If “you” (generally speaking) want to inquire about HFY, you’d better have some respect for HFY first, if you want to get far.

----I will repeat what I said before. If you are coming here to discuss Wing Chun, then you better be prepared to talk on equal footing with the rest of us. If someone wants to know if I have a specific motion or technique in my Biu Gee form, I'll tell them!!! :eek: Did that question ever get answered on that other thread? It ended up so long and belabored that I lost track!

But don’t come up to me and tell me I have to open up to you, everything I know.

---No offense intended Savi, and I do appreciate you being willing to share more than most, but what have you got to hide?

[JPinAZ]

Keith,

From reading your comments in your last post, it seems to me, that while you may have 'read' what savi wrote, you're still be 'hearing' what he is saying.

As far as all the secrecy talk, and more-so, saying that there is no real sharing of HFY here, I think Savi also addressed this quite well a few pages ago when he said:

"...For that matter, it's no one's call what I choose to share about it to the public. It's not about being secretive. It's about not being any of your business. It's called boundaries. If you want to learn more, you gotta put the hands on it.

I don't take stock in learning martial arts online, and certain (if not the majority of) questions are best answered in person. Quite obviously, Kung fu is learned in person. Everything else is just words..."

Sure we can all talk here and have dialog and share what we know, but if it's something that you have never seen, you will never really 'see' it online. At some point, hands on is the only real way to know what one is talking about.
Kinda like an apple - One can describe what it tastes like, how it's different than another apple, or even how it tastes different than another piece of fruit, but isn't it best to just take a bite to see for yourself if you've never tasted that apple?

[JPinAZ]

"In my opinion, it comes down to one thing, and that is there is so much in the HFY system that is simply not in many other Wing Chun systems which cannot be discussed in depth without direct experience." (Savi)


***AND IN MY OPINION, Savi...this is pure spin and hype. Of course it could be discussed. But enough about all this. I'm really not all that interested anymore - thanks to all the secrecy and spin. Much ado about nothing.

Cool, then we shouldn't expect your comments in regards to HFY any more in the future. Saves me the hassle of having to tell you to shut up ;)

[Ned]

Yo Keith,

Why don't you come to the secretive public hfy forum for some discussion.
I do not see any excuses why you can not. You are most welcomed to join.
Here is a good thread to join on to possible get some answers:

One Wing Chun tree, many Wing Chun branches.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510

My attitude is this....if you are going to frequent a Wing Chun discussion forum, you darn well better be prepared to discuss your Wing Chun! If you aren't willing to share on equal footing with the rest of the people here, then you haven't 'earned' the right to talk to us! Maybe I'm in a small minority that sees it that way. But I still have the right to express that opinion." (KPM)

[Liddel]

One thing i notice is every time a HFY guy tries to explain something using jargon or not, it seems to come from a theoretical POV...

"this is what we're taught, its part of our Kuen kuit, its in our VT formula" etc etc.

I myself when running into differences with other lineages get specific about the only thing we can really have in common... VT's use in fighting.

The specifics of any fight will be different sure because of application differences between lineages, but explaining a real life experience bridges the gap of understanding IMO........cause we've all at least seen a fight :p so can sort of relate.

Ive yet to hear a HFY practitioner try to explain thier POV using a real life fight example.... and i wonder why ?


“Oh, we have that too. You’re just using different words to sound different. More marketing.”

Marketing aside, i think SOME not all HFY peeps, have an issue finding out other lineages NOT ALL have things they were otherwise TOLD was special to HFY....

Just My opinion, nothing more.....

DREW

[tbone]

One thing i notice is every time a HFY guy tries to explain something using jargon or not, it seems to come from a theoretical POV...

"this is what we're taught, its part of our Kuen kuit, its in our VT formula" etc etc.

I myself when running into differences with other lineages get specific about the only thing we can really have in common... VT's use in fighting.
lol

Why do you think HFY people prefer hands on, face to face training? So they can talk or theorize?

lol!

I really don't see much discussion on this forum that isn't theory... HFY or any other lineage.

[Ned]

One thing I noticed is this guy called HFY a cult but then still asks questions about HFY.
Just a fact, nothing more....

[anerlich]

One thing I noticed is this guy called HFY a cult but then still asks questions about HFY.
Just a fact, nothing more....

What penetrating insight *yawn*

Perhaps answering his questions in a straightforward fashion would help dispel his opinion that HFY=cult. One which I, and apparently others, find more and more difficult to discount as the long-winded, information-free posts accumulate.

I see maybe 5% of the HFY responses here being direct provision of information about HFY, and that's being generous. The other 95% uses linguistic pyrotechnics, jargon, misdirection and byzantine logic to AVOID questions (which could be answered quickly by "Sorry, Garrett doesn't want us to talk about this"), making meaningful statements or combating the scepticism such attitudes demand.

The recent thread about whether HFY does or does not have a particular section in its Bil Jee form is a classic illustration.

Just a fact, nothing more ...

I have no doubt the network in Brazil is to blame for the problems with this clip. The attitude HFYers complain about here is basically all their own work.

[Ned]

see post #40 - http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=850050&postcount=40
Just a fact, nothing more...

later

[Liddel]

One thing I noticed is this guy called HFY a cult but then still asks questions about HFY.
Just a fact, nothing more....

This is retarded LOL.

Because thinking one way or the other doesnt make me less interested :rolleyes:


Why do you think HFY people prefer hands on, face to face training? So they can talk or theorize?

Perhaps because they realise that in showing, people may have a chance of actually understanding the style rather than trying to make heads or tails of the enigma wrapped in a mystery that is, HFY common vernacular.
LOL

From what i hear from people that actually visited, its not as complicated as an outsider may think. Which again goes to my comment about some HFY peeps not wantnig to hear others say that they have certain aspects of what you may think are special/unique to HFY, in thier VT !

Good chat :o

:cool:
DREW

[anerlich]

see post #40

Great, so we can all read your same retarded post twice. Thanks a bunch.

[KPM]

Yo Keith,

Why don't you come to the secretive public hfy forum for some discussion.
I do not see any excuses why you can not. You are most welcomed to join.
Here is a good thread to join on to possible get some answers:

)

Thanks for the invite Ned! But I don't get online all that often, so I limit myself to the good old KFO forum for my cyber-WCK fix. :) But are you suggesting that over on the HFY forum they actually discuss WCK without technical jargon, without "dazzling redirection", and that they actually answer straight-forward questions? If that IS true....then why can't they do it here as well? :confused:

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

I have some video of a little HFY dummy and SNT that's a few years old. I have to say that it looks just like what was shown on that video minus Bruce Lee, of course.

[Ned]

Keith,
KFO is hostile grounds for HFY and I am not here to start a campaign to change any HFY stalkers opinion, not that I am calling you a stalker. My point is that you mentioned HFY was deceiving the public and is secretive, but I was pointing out that there is a HFY forum where information is shared from HFY. HFY has nothing to gain by deceiving the public but a lot to lose. HFY has been around a long time and will be here a long time. KFO is just another internet forum where people vomit all over each other. As explained in the other thread and by Savi in this thread HFY owes nobody anything. Most of the time, I view all this bickering and fighting about HFY as schemes and/or manipulations to force out what they want. The motives are not out of respect and responsibility. You know, with all the disrespect, mocking and irresponsibility that are going on here towards HFY, it is really stupid for individuals to expect answers to their questions. It is also disrespectful and irresponsible, to film HFY and publicly display it without permission!

You can take the info on hfy108 or leave it. Just because it’s the 21 century it does not mean that HFY has to be packaged and deliver to anyone's xpectations, beliefs or policies.

[Chango]

I think alot of people are under the impression that HFY is interested in activily recruit members of other lineages. This is not the case ! Yes we get our converts just like any other lineage. But who here has only trained only one lineage? It has been our intention (in many cases) to simply share with the martial arts community. Over the years I've visited many other forums and had really positive interaction. As a matter of fact I've had some positive interaction here at times. It really just boils down to some people having a "us vs them" frame of mind. I've said it many times when I speak I only speak for myself and not my entire HFY lineage. I'd hate to hold my entire kung fu family responsible for my understanding at a particular time in my learning! That's way to much preasure LOL! My understanding is not the same as it was 6 weeks ago let alone 6 months or 6 years! LOL! I simply encourage growth weather it be my growth or the person I'm engaging with.

It's been requested that our system should not be shared via video. Due to the lack of healthy understanding and the cause of more confusion and misunderstanding. Some may respect that others may not. It should simply be said that not alot can from such a exchange. But people will do what they want I guess.