Would you?

[r4cy]

OK here's the question:

Would you train with someone even if he doesn't have any paper credentials can show you he can really fight and can teach you how to do so really well? Please answer yes or no and why?

Thanks.

[Almost A Ghost]

In this day, somebody not having any documentation is very rare. I don't have any certificates myself, but I have documentation in pictures and video of me training.

But back to the question, and I assume you are talking about Wing Chun: Yes, but I have been doing Wing Chun for over 6 years, so I'd image after working out for a bit with the guy I'd be able to tell training with them would be a step forward or not.

[Egg fu young]

OK here's the question:

Would you train with someone even if he doesn't have any paper credentials can show you he can really fight and can teach you how to do so really well? Please answer yes or no and why?

Thanks.


I'd train with almost anyone but I'm choosey about who I study from. Anyone serious about their discipline today will go the extra mile for certification if they are looking to teach.

[KPM]

That's crap! A piece of paper doesn't mean anything! See what the guy knows. See how he moves. See what he has to offer. There are plenty of people who don't give a dam whether they have a piece of paper that says they know what they are doing. I teach. Why should I go the "extra mile" and seek out someone who is willing to give me a piece of paper if I pay the right price? If you like what I do and what I have to offer, then come learn. If you don't, then you are welcome to go elsewhere! The "extra mile" I will go to is to seek out people that I know can improve my own game and teach me something. But that doesn't necessarily mean I will learn their entire system to the point of being "certified" to teach exactly as they do. I think for myself. I do for myself. I use what works for me. Who's going to "certify" me in that? And besides, Wing Chun is so rare in most parts of the country that many people can't afford to be very choosy. And a lot of people end up moving around with jobs and school and may not study with any one person long enough to be "certified." But that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. Paper, like black belts, means very little nowadays. Both can be bought by people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.

[donbdc]

I 100% agree w/ KPM. I have seen papered pedigrees not be able to fight for sh*t.
Years ago I trained w/ a guy that had no credentials, his brother was a Bondo instructor under the notorious Dr. Gee. He was a boxer/ wrestler. He studied w/ his brother and others. He was a bonded bounty hunter. He had 5-6 students at a time. weight trianing was very important, he himself was benching over 400 lbs at 50 yrs of age. The curriculum was boxing, bondo, stick, knife, gun and whatever other itch he wanted to scratch.
His only certifications were stab wounds and big beef callused knuckles. It was great training and MMA long before it was ever popular. In particular I always liked his disdain for traditional training at the time, "I eat karate guys for lunch".
Any way I am in a WC Sytem now, not b/c it has paper and not b/c it's pretty but b/c it works.
Don Berry

[Wu Wei Wu]

I don't have any certificates.

When I met my teacher he didn't have any certificates. What he had was 60 years of training in Gung Fu. He passed away 3 years ago and I remember him with fondness and am still in awe of the way he used to move.

A person can be skilled both as a Phd or as an autodidact (self taught). The important thing is 'can he transfer the knowledge to me in a way that I can understand?'

I have nothing against collectors of paper titles. Just that I have a hard time reducing a physical skill to a piece of paper.

Suki

[r4cy]

Awesome. The reason I ask this is because I have a friend that started training in WC with his teacher but didn't complete the system under him. Having no other teacher around all what he did is take what he knew, read a lot, saw a lot of videos from different perspectives, TRAINED A LOT so after the years he ended being really good at WC. At the point to prove anyone through sparring he could walk the talk. Now he is running a very productive and succesful school, but some people that know where he come from is trying to discredit what he does. Students seem not to care as they are receiving really good teaching. But anyway, keep the comments coming, thanks.

[donbdc]

Let the hands talk!
Don

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I tend to believe that certificates are only needed if one is trying to pass on a particular lineage or system. It tends to lend credence to ones claims. In some cases it also places ones ability in a known states, ie: in WT years ago when they had a passport indicating ones rank, one could conceivably walk into another WT school and they would know where to put you in the class, more or less.

When I left WT I was told I no longer held any rank and that I could not claim to know WT anymore. My reply was that while I would no longer be a recognized instructor in the WT system I already had the knowledge and that could not be taken away. Over the years I have lost most of my certificates so that should give an idea of how important I felt they were.

If one is able to demonstrate ability and pass that knowledge on then that is worth far more than one with all the certifications in the world who can't apply or teach. But that is just mho.

[Matrix]

Now he is running a very productive and succesful school, but some people that know where he come from is trying to discredit what he does.
Just sounds like sour grapes to me. Others are jealous of his success, and are looking to cut him down with shallow arguements. The martial arts community is filled with people with paper credentials, awards and plastic trophies. If you need to see these things to be confident in a teacher, I think you're looking at the wrong stuff.

Keith, Suki and Don all have it right IMO. Does the teacher have skills? Can they actually transfer those skills to others, in otherwords "teach"? Are they offering something to you that you feel has value? Of course, sometimes we just don't know what we don't know, but a piece of paper will not change that. Time will tell.

Bill

[UKBBC]

paper credentials are a good way to justify extracting large amounts of money from students...they mainly indicate the holder has particular knowledge, but may not indicate ability to apply that knowledge

I trained before in a school that charged for every test, but seeing as there is no internationally accepted standard that everyone adheres to, my ranking is near enough useless. Especially compared to the rigorous ranking system of CRCA wing chun, the majority of black belts in other WC systems won't even make it past the first level ranking because of the high standards demanded

[Liddel]

That's crap! A piece of paper doesn't mean anything! See what the guy knows. See how he moves. See what he has to offer.

Couldnt agree more. Ever hear of "the school of hard knocks". Theres no cert for that :rolleyes:

Id expect someone to try me out if they wanted to learn from me rather than because i hold a title or piece of paper.

I hold this POV because ive seen many people in my country and abroad that have credentials but dont have skill :o

So unless said cert is really crisp and a teacher can papercut an opponent into defeat, ill go by what they can do with bare hands. LOL :D

DREW

[Lee Chiang Po]

You can buy a belt ranking. A certificate is easy to get too. I personally know of 2 individuals that have never studied Karate under anyone, and they both bought certificates through mail order training schools. They can talk some long **** too. They actually sound like they know what they are talking about, and have actually taught karate to a few people that were able to win in local tournements. In order to teach you really don't have to do anything. Just as long as you can talk the talk and teach someone what you have read from a book or something.
I have taught a few people what I was taught many years ago. My son, now 42 years old and my grandson, who is still learning. I have taught my best friend, and a step brother and a nephew. Other than that, I would not take on the task because it would take a long time and I did not want to be tied up to that person for that length of time. I have never charged money for teaching.
I have once watched for a time at a Karate DoJo that taught Wing Chun one day out of a week. The instructor is a lot younger than myself, maybe middle aged. I said nothing, just watched. After a while I was asked if I wanted to join in the class as a student. I didn't know what to say, so I asked if I could just watch for a while before deciding. It was ok. So I did just that. I noticed that they did things a lot different than I would have done it, but said nothing. I would not want someone coming into my place of business or whatever and start pointing out faults and such. Eventually I decided that I might like to join in, price was right, and have someone to train with. But, on talking to the instructor I let it slip that I had been doing Wing Chun for a very long time he changed his mind and decided he would not take me into the group. He gave no explanation, just that he had no openings and too many students at the time. Later I seen a couple of the younger people in the Mall area and they stopped to talk to me. They asked me what I had said to make the instructor not want me. I didn't tell them what I had told him, but that I did not really know. Maybe he just thought me too old. I think maybe he became very self concious about his skills when he learned that I had been doing it for so long. However, I felt he was very good from what I had seen up until that time. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have to fight him. I have not been back since.

[anerlich]

I would only train with such a person on an informal and private basis.

There are arguments for and against certification. However, if I were training in a commercial school, I'd want to be sure the head coach had basic qualifications in sports coaching, first aid, OH&S, etc. And that they had insurance, which is much easier to get in my country if you are accredited by an industry group. There are groups which are apolitical and not style-specific. You have to be reasonably competent at an MA to get such accreditation, but it's hardly impossible for someone with demonstrable skill but without lineage credentials to get. Jeez, they even advertise. People here whine about having to get accreditation to run classes at government owned institutions like schools, but consider the alternative and its possible ramifications.

I'd wonder why someone teaching on their own would not have the ability or will to obtain such credentials. My WC and BJJ/MMA instructors are all so accredited. IMO you would be taking a big risk with someone who hasn't bothered to learn first aid or get OH&S accreditation. No matter how skilled they may be at fighting.


Especially compared to the rigorous ranking system of CRCA wing chun, the majority of black belts in other WC systems won't even make it past the first level ranking because of the high standards demanded

*** yawn *** whatever. At least in Jiu Jitsu the belt system is a reasonable indication of actual skill.

[KPM]

Hi Andrew!

There are arguments for and against certification. However, if I were training in a commercial school, I'd want to be sure the head coach had basic qualifications in sports coaching, first aid, OH&S, etc. And that they had insurance,

---But that's an Australian thing, and hardly the norm in the rest of the world. And a lot of Wing Chun is not taught at a "commercial school." In fact, I think there would be some grounds to argue that the BEST Wing Chun is not taught at commercial schools. :eek:

People here whine about having to get accreditation to run classes at government owned institutions like schools, but consider the alternative and its possible ramifications.

---You mean the alternative that goes on in most of the remaining free world other than Australia? What are the ramifications that you speak of?

I'd wonder why someone teaching on their own would not have the ability or will to obtain such credentials.

---Because such credentials mean very little. Should I spend my time and money to travel close to a 1000 miles to Dayton Ohio to the Wing Chun Museum in order to get an accreditation in generic "Yip Man Wing Chun" so that people on-line will acknowledge that I might know what I'm doing? Would I then be obligated to teach it exactly as they do so that my accreditation is valid? If I didn't do it exactly as they do would that mean that my certificate is nule and void? What if they didn't want to certify me because I do the pivot on K1 rather than the heel or some other such technical difference? Is that enough to say that I shouldn't be teaching because they won't give me a certification? What if I prefer to do the movements of the Chum Kiu form just a little differently than they do because it has more meaning for me? Is that enough to say I shouldn't be teaching because they wouldn't certify me?

---These things aren't government regulated in the US like they are in Australia. I know opinions may differ, but for me I don't see that as a bad thing.

[Matrix]

In order to teach you really don't have to do anything. Just as long as you can talk the talk and teach someone what you have read from a book or something.This may be true, but only at the most superficial and cosmetic level. Speaking is not teaching, although it can appear that way on first glance. There needs to be more depth, IMO. Of course, you can always fool some of the people some of the time. :)

Bill

[Liddel]

In order to teach you really don't have to do anything. Just as long as you can talk the talk and teach someone what you have read from a book or something.

Are you for real ?

If this was the case i could be a teacher of MMA, given all the books ive read and forget about how many matches ive seen since i was introduced to it by a buddy in the 90's.

Sheesh - ive got some land for sale on moon if your interested, right near the sea of tranquility ? 100K ONO

:confused:
DREW

[anerlich]

Because such credentials mean very little.

I agree "WC qualifications" mean little.

I'm more concerned that the teacher have basic first aid, OH&S, rudimentary business skills if he's taking my cash, and at least understand basic principles of modern sports coaching. These aren't hard to pick up, and that someone considers him/herself competent to teach others a physical discipline with potential dangers, without at least investing in a basic understanding of such things, for which certification is reasonably easy to come by with a suitable investment of time, IMO that demonstrates an attitude unsuitable for a teacher.

People may choose to teach WC in small groups privately because they feel a professional environment means they have to compromise. They might also take that path because they are lazy, lack self-confidence or business skills, or have skeletons in the closet. IMO taking a professional approach backing yourself with as many qualifications as you can earn gives you the opportunity to reach more people, invest more time in your art and its instruction, and give your students the best possible teaching and learning environment.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think that if you are running a school and charging large fees you would want some sort of certifications. That and business training. But for the individual that does not really do it as a business, going to all the trouble to become certified might just be more than they want to deal with.
I have trained 6 people in my life. My son and grandson, a nephew, step brother and 2 other individuals that were not blood kin. I have never taken money. I have no certifications at all. If I were to take students it would have to be with this understanding, and I would charge one hell of a fee. With a large amount up front. This way they would be serious.
I also know that it is easy to get papers for most anything. No one is going to question it unless maybe another school owner. They don't care if you stay 100 years or 2 weeks. I suspect that most people only last a few weeks. There is nothing more aggrevating than a person begging and begging until you give in and then not show up for the first meeting. That is why the large sum up front. If a person is 500 or 600 bucks into them they would show up with broken legs.

[KPM]

I'm more concerned that the teacher have basic first aid, OH&S, rudimentary business skills if he's taking my cash, and at least understand basic principles of modern sports coaching.

---Again, that may be the norm in Australia where government regulation requires it, but not in most of the rest of the world. So let's see, you would require that before someone can teach another person some Wing Chun they should:
1. Take a first aide course. Ok. Easy enough.
2. Take an occupational health and safety course. I don't know of any such courses in the US for the general public.
3. Have rudimentary business skills. Does that mean taking some junior college courses in business?
4. Know basic sports coaching concepts. Again, does that mean taking some junior college courses?

So it sounds like you would require someone that wants to teach a few friends some Wing Chun to take a least a semester of the appropriate college level courses, pay for some kind of liability insurance, and outfit a gym with all the latest equipment.



These aren't hard to pick up, and that someone considers him/herself competent to teach others a physical discipline with potential dangers, without at least investing in a basic understanding of such things, for which certification is reasonably easy to come by with a suitable investment of time, IMO that demonstrates an attitude unsuitable for a teacher.

---I disagree with each of your points. First, these things aren't that easy to pick up, except maybe in Australia. Second, I don't think they are necessary for a Wing Chun teacher. Maybe they are a good thing for a Sifu running a commercial school and making his living teaching Wing Chun, but there is a lot of Wing Chun being taught through-out the world that doesn't follow this commercial model.



People may choose to teach WC in small groups privately because they feel a professional environment means they have to compromise. They might also take that path because they are lazy, lack self-confidence or business skills, or have skeletons in the closet.

----Or......they may choose to teach WC in small groups because they aren't out to make a buck, they like the more intimate setting that allows more hands-on work with each student, they have a 40 hour per week job and teach Wing Chun because they love doing it and not to pay the bills, they don't want the hassle of being a businessman or of entering the political arena of competing with other martial arts instructors for a slice of the pie that is going to keep their commercial doors open.




IMO taking a professional approach backing yourself with as many qualifications as you can earn gives you the opportunity to reach more people, invest more time in your art and its instruction, and give your students the best possible teaching and learning environment.

---That's all fine and good for a professional/commercial Wing Chun instructor. But again, I would bet that a large percentage of Wing Chun taught through-out the world does not follow the professional/commercial model.

[anerlich]

Again, that may be the norm in Australia where government regulation requires it

It is not required by government regulation. There are government and other organisations which facilitate the process. Any moron can legally set himself up as an MA instructor. The qualifications ensure a basic level of knowledge and some degree of peer recognition.


Have rudimentary business skills. Does that mean taking some junior college courses in business?

Perhaps. Tyry and run a business without them, your attempts to save time and money may backfire big time.


Know basic sports coaching concepts. Again, does that mean taking some junior college courses?

In Australia, most sporting and MA industry bodies run their own programs in line with government guidelines. You need a senior first aid certificate, and they can hook you up with basic OH&S training, which probably takes one day on a weekend. The rest might require a couple of months, one night a week or a day on weekends. This may not happen in the US ... that's your advantage/loss.


I disagree with each of your points.

Good for you.


First, these things aren't that easy to pick up, except maybe in Australia.

Too bad for the rest of the world, then. Because something is hard to get doesn't mean it lacks value. Generally the opposite is true.


Second, I don't think they are necessary for a Wing Chun teacher.

I guess we're unlikely to meet up in the same kwoon, then huh?


So it sounds like you would require someone that wants to teach a few friends some Wing Chun to take a least a semester of the appropriate college level courses, pay for some kind of liability insurance, and outfit a gym with all the latest equipment.

Of course not :rolleyes: If they're taking money from strangers, however, they better have their ducks in a row. It is in their own interests to do so. The USA's more litigation happy than we are, after all.

I can't see a semester at college hurting though, unless you're scared of learning something useful.


But again, I would bet that a large percentage of Wing Chun taught through-out the world does not follow the professional/commercial model.

Good luck to them, though neither me nor anyone who asks me for advice will have much to do with them. An appeal to popularity does not an argument make, but you knew that.

[LoneTiger108]

OK here's the question:

Would you train with someone even if he doesn't have any paper credentials can show you he can really fight and can teach you how to do so really well? Please answer yes or no and why?

Thanks.

I think the majority of experienced Martial Artists can recognize a fighter when they see one move, and if that's what you want to take from Martial Arts then good luck to you.

Personally I was interested in the culture behind the Wing Chun Family and when the time was right Sifu shared his so-called 'certificate' with all of us. It was a scroll of some sorts, that literally gave him a mission to promote WCK, similar to an old version of a 'company'. A bit different to the commercialized ones I see bought today.

So, the paper credentials 'did' exist in their own way but I would openly exchange with anyone who I thought had something I could benefit from, with or without a piece of paper of authorization.

In the UK we also have a sports council recognised governing body for Chinese Martial Arts called the BCCMA. We've been linked to them for four years and our members have not benefitted much at all. Actually, it's a requirement of all Sifus in the BCCMA to attend a coaching day, for introductory purposes and to learn a little about child protection and H&S issues.

Many oldskoolers are insulted that they have to attend something like this, and so the BCCMA's WCK membership is still very low.

[KPM]

Good luck to them, though neither me nor anyone who asks me for advice will have much to do with them. An appeal to popularity does not an argument make, but you knew that.

So it sounds like you would view me, and all of those like me.....people with primary jobs that teach Wing Chun in their free time and not as a way to make a living....as "second class" or "inferior" Wing Chun teachers? You don't want to have anything to do with us? :rolleyes:

[couch]

People may choose to teach WC in small groups privately because they feel a professional environment means they have to compromise.

I think this might be true for most of the "small" groups. When I train with people, I want the die-hards...the fanatics...the one's who will actually practice something at home, etc. No commercial school, no dogma, etc. Just plain honesty and training. I don't want the person who is in it for social aspects only...or just to get a workout.

There's an MMA club in Dartmouth that charges over 100 bucks per month to train. In my opinion, for the economy, that's a lot of money. But I think it's the message they're sending out: "serious inquiries only."

So I can see both sides of it...but if it's commercial (and MY KIND of commercial), there has to be a way to weed out the lazy people.

Best,
Kenton

[anerlich]

So it sounds like you would view me, and all of those like me.....people with primary jobs that teach Wing Chun in their free time and not as a way to make a living....as "second class" or "inferior" Wing Chun teachers? You don't want to have anything to do with us?

Appeal to popularity does not an argument make. Nor does putting words in my mouth that I never said. I hope you treat your students as if they have some intellect, a courtesy you seem unwilling to extend to your fellow forum members.

It might sound like that to you ... but if so, you sound like you have issues. Not my concern.

If I have a choice between some guy without certs who teaches in his backyard, and may be uninsured as a result, and someone with the certs who has premises, equipment and can do this full time, sorry, but Mr "for the love of it" is going to come second. Maybe Mr Pro got his certs and the rest because he loves it just as much,maybe more, than you, enough to put in the extra time and effort.

I said "unqualified", "uncertified". You said "inferior", "second class", not me. You seem to ber taking this as some sort of personal criticism. It isn't, and that an issue for you to resolve, not me.

Good luck to you and your students. It's not for me to try and stop you or say you're doing the wrong thing. I'm just saying what I expect and what I would do. That's only going to bother you if you let it.

[KPM]

Appeal to popularity does not an argument make. Nor does putting words in my mouth that I never said. I hope you treat your students as if they have some intellect, a courtesy you seem unwilling to extend to your fellow forum members.

---I said from the very beginning of this discussion that the things you were suggesting were perfectly reasonable for someone that teaches on a professional/commercial level. The point I was trying to make was that they are not very reasonable to expect from someone that teaches on a "free time" basis. I pointed out that there was a lot of Wing Chun being taught on a "free time" basis rather than a professional basis. You're reply was "neither me nor anyone that asks me for advice will have much to do with them." That's not putting words in your mouth, and it certainly implies that you think such people are not worth having "much to do with." So if that is not what you were saying, exactly what WERE you saying? There is no need to imply that I don't treat my students "as if they have some intellect", nor that I am being discourteous. It is you that have continued to make negative implications about people that teach Wing Chun without the multiple certifications that you imply are standard in Australia.



If I have a choice between some guy without certs who teaches in his backyard, and may be uninsured as a result, and someone with the certs who has premises, equipment and can do this full time, sorry, but Mr "for the love of it" is going to come second.

---Personally, I would pick the guy that is the better teacher and has the most to offer in the way of knowledge and skill regardless of whether he has a OH & S certification or a gym with fancy equipment.

Maybe Mr Pro got his certs and the rest because he loves it just as much,maybe more, than you, enough to put in the extra time and effort.

---Maybe so! And that's great if he does! But don't go implying that those that don't have the certs and professional gym love teaching Wing Chun any less than he does. That's where YOU are being discourteous.



I said "unqualified", "uncertified". You said "inferior", "second class", not me. You seem to ber taking this as some sort of personal criticism. It isn't, and that an issue for you to resolve, not me.

---You said you didn't want to have anything to do with such a person. I guess that is open to interpretation. And it sounds like that is an issue for you.

Good luck to you and your students. It's not for me to try and stop you or say you're doing the wrong thing. I'm just saying what I expect and what I would do. That's only going to bother you if you let it.

---You accused me of being "discourteous" and treating someone (you?) like you didn't have any intellect. So who was the one being bothered?

[anerlich]

You accused me of being "discourteous"

***Yawn***. Actually I didn't, but even if I did, you need to hear the expression about duck's backs and water and try to live by it. Be discourteous if you want, though I didn't say you were, I'll be able to live with it. Easily.

I don't exactly want to train with someone who who nitpicks me to death either.

[Edmund]

---I disagree with each of your points. First, these things aren't that easy to pick up, except maybe in Australia. Second, I don't think they are necessary for a Wing Chun teacher. Maybe they are a good thing for a Sifu running a commercial school and making his living teaching Wing Chun, but there is a lot of Wing Chun being taught through-out the world that doesn't follow this commercial model.


I don't think it's got much to do with commercial models. Even in Judo in Australia, where teachers don't make much and there's no fancy gyms, they've all done sports coaching courses and first aid courses.

Write them off as a tax expense!

[Edmund]

In the UK we also have a sports council recognised governing body for Chinese Martial Arts called the BCCMA. We've been linked to them for four years and our members have not benefitted much at all. Actually, it's a requirement of all Sifus in the BCCMA to attend a coaching day, for introductory purposes and to learn a little about child protection and H&S issues.

Many oldskoolers are insulted that they have to attend something like this, and so the BCCMA's WCK membership is still very low.

Well that course sounds like it kinda sucks but generally these courses should cover stuff like your legal responsibilities (what laws you're meant to follow), sports training methods etc.

Your sports council has to give some value for what you're paying for!

[KPM]

Actually I didn't,

---Actually, you wrote "I hope you treat your students as if they have some intellect, a courtesy you seem unwilling to extend to your fellow forum members." I'm not putting words in your mouth. Would you care to clarify what you were actually saying, if it wasn't meant to imply I was being discourteous to forum members?

---And you haven't bothered to clarify this comment either...""neither me nor anyone that asks me for advice will have much to do with them." Was this not directed at people that teach Wing Chun without all the certs required in Australia?


I don't exactly want to train with someone who who nitpicks me to death either.

---I'm not "nitpicking" anything. Throughout your posts on this thread your implication has been that people that teach Wing Chun without certification, without OH&S training, without sports coaching training, and without insurance (that is they teach during spare time as a hobby and not professionally)....are somehow not as good as those that do. I've pointed out that this isn't necessarily the case and you've turned it into an argument.

---I have no reason to take this personally. I'm a medical doctor and a chiropractor. I have had courses in OH&S, basic life support, first aide, and advanced trauma life support. I have patched up gunshot victims in Iraq. I am a certified Army Master Fitness Trainer, so I know a little about coaching. But I felt the need to speak out for a lot of Wing Chun instructors that just want to teach Wing Chun and don't have all of the certs you think are necessary. But its not worth arguing about anymore. Its my turn to "yawn." :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

I see both sides of the coin.....

When i first met my teacher he didnt have any cert for me to look at to verify his words. He learnt from Sifu Lok and Ip Man.
He has certs for his school in HK from the HK government when he taught for a living. He also had pics of his classes with him in the middle with like 40 to 50 people around him...pics from 1960 61 62 63 etc

Later he showed me pics with Gm Ip and Sifu Lok, but well after i began learning from him.

The main reason i began learning from him though is cause he walked the talk, and the things that i saw as negitives from learning privately in a small group i made up for with my own inititive... going to spar with other styles touching hands at other VT schools etc... all things he advocated.

So its all relative. :rolleyes:

That being said i know of poeple here in NZ that learnt VT from a master for ten years then paid Ron Heimburger to come and certify them under a completly different lineage... over three days....

How does one change thier natural fighting habbits to another lineage in three days...(ive seen both and they are very differnet in many areas).

These kind of things are what leads me to believe that regardless of a cert there are bigger issues to take into account and really we should look at them on a case by case basis....

Which is why in some respects i see Andrews POV. Id like it if VT had a level playing field worldwide.. so if someone said they had a BB in VT (or whatever:rolleyes:) that would mean the same in the states or in HK.

But it aint like that..... so :o

DREW

[SAAMAG]

I've got lot's of certs in a box collecting dust. Well...not lots, but like 3 or 4. None of them really mean anything. Though they're legitimate, since I don't practice a couple of those styles to the degree that I'd be able to teach "only" those styles, they're really only keepsakes now for memories.

Doesn't mean I can't fight. Doesn't mean I can't teach. Doesn't mean much of anything.

One of my muay thai coaches is very good at what he does. Very good. I used to spar with him years ago, and I couldn't touch him. I don't think he was taught by anyone famous, and I don't think he ever really competed. He was raised overseas on the streets of asia, learned whatever he learned from whoever he learned it from. He chose to teach the muay thai because it worked best for him during his childhood I think. To this day, he still challenges me and makes me a better fighter whenever I work with him...though it's only on occasion now.

So like it's been said...I guess depending on the style and organization and your personal goals, it just depends. Me personally, I don't care. Actions speak louder than ink.

[anerlich]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................