choy li fut wooden dummy book

[hakka jai]

hi Folks,
Does anyone know of the name of the sifu( i think it was NG sifu?)that wrote a book on the choy li fut ching chong & where you can get info on this sifu & does he have any disciplies carring on his lineage??.



cheers
:)

[Satori Science]

I had the bok at one point but my sifu "misplaced" it on me....

I got mine on ebay, I would search around there as I believe it is out of print. Cool book though, the Sifu was the head of the Hung Sing in HK to my understanding (my sifu met him at some point) He most likely still has studnets teaching his line, ask Mokkori he would know.

[Eddie]

My friend gave me the book as a gift once. Its pretty old and tattered, but its still pretty cool.

Auther is Ho Ngau, student of Ngan Yiu Ting, who was a student of Chan Koon Pak.

I think Sifu Ho has passed away already, the book is old, there is no date only one picture dated 1975. Sifu Ho l,ooks like he is in his late 80's in the book. So I take it he is gone now.

[Mano Mano]

Although not the same as what is in the wooden dummy book here's a clip of the Ho Ngau lineage wooden dummy form. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6NEZLsTE0

[buddajoe]

This small book is authored by Leo Chu and demonstrated by Ho Ngau. Brendan Lai supply company added an English insert in the late70’s. Later on because it popularity it was re released or reprinted (Chinese) in Macao. Both books retain the same errors, author and printers. Although the book is put together badly it is a classic and much sought out by collectors. It is great clf. Ho Ngau grandson teaches in SF Chinatown. I have scanned the whole book but unfortunately do not know how to downsize my files for this forum's limit.

[CLFNole]

I belive that Ngan Yiu Ting's grandson teaches in SF chinatown. Never heard anything about Ho Ngau's grandson.

[buddajoe]

clf nole you may be right as my classmates who speak toisan? told me they are related. one told me Ngau Ho was his uncle the other told me grandson. anyway i have some pics.

[jdhowland]

I'm in the Ho Ngau lineage through Jeh Cheuk Tong, his U.S. representative. Ho sifu visited us in Hawaii in the early '70s and taught us the muhk jong set among other things. The book has some errors as well as repeated movements that we didn't learn but it shows the moves well enough. I haven't seen Ngan Cho Keung's version but the lineages were the same up to Ho's generation.
JD

[mokkori]

I'm in the Ho Ngau lineage through Jeh Cheuk Tong, his U.S. representative. Ho sifu visited us in Hawaii in the early '70s and taught us the muhk jong set among other things. The book has some errors as well as repeated movements that we didn't learn but it shows the moves well enough. I haven't seen Ngan Cho Keung's version but the lineages were the same up to Ho's generation.
JD

Is there anything you can tell me about Ho Ngau and his background in CLF? Im really curious because recently I saw this video posted titles "Sup Ying Keun":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEw0rPbp1VE
This form isnt Sup Ying Keun though, its called Daai Sup Ji Keun (Large Cross Pattern Fist). The performers form was move for move exactly like the Hung Sing form in my lineage through Chui Kwong Yeun. And it even has some of CKY's signature movements in it. Are you sure, or can anyone else tell me, is this form really from Ho Ngau?

[chasincharpchui]

definately not ho ngau

unless ho ngau learnt off tarm sarm

[hskwarrior]

mokkori knows what he's talking about. i know that the set is really dai sup ji kuen as well. its not a buk sing form, it is a hung sing form.

[hskwarrior]

clfnole is correct. its ngan yiu ting this is at 8 chinatown lane in C-town.

[Tai-Lik]

hi Folks,
Does anyone know of the name of the sifu( i think it was NG sifu?)that wrote a book on the choy li fut ching chong & where you can get info on this sifu & does he have any disciplies carring on his lineage??.



cheers
:)

Hi is this the book your refering:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/chinbkmini/bk_tc801.jpg

i don't know if this helps

[HSCLFCPA]

CLFNole and HSKWarrior are correct. Ngan, Yiu Ting's grandson, Ngan, Cho Keong, teaches in SF Chinatown. Last year I spoke to him and observed his students practicing at his studio. He seems like a very nice and sincere person.

[chasincharpchui]

mokkori knows what he's talking about. i know that the set is really dai sup ji kuen as well. its not a buk sing form, it is a hung sing form.

but didnt Chui Gwong Yuen sifu's father, Chui Cheung sisukjo learn off sijo Tarm Sarm?

Chui Cheung calls his style Hung Sing, but ive been told the techniques he taught in his style were sijo Tarm Sarm's Buk sing techniques, and Sijo Tarm Sarm's fighting philosophy.

so i think its natural for alot of buk sing practioners to instantly see the connection
coz its 99% identical to what we all do, from beginning to end.
im not juss saying simple gwa sau charp, "oh its identical". i mean the sequence of movements. from the salute to the end.

Correct me if im wrong mokkori, this is definately one of the subjects i will like to cover when i see Chui Gwong Yuen Sifu next, is that this Sup Ji Kune is not mainstream Fut San Hung Sing Clf Sup Ji Kune, but is Chui Cheung Hung Sing CLF from Tarm Sarm Sup Ji Kune



Mokkori if you don't like what i just wrote, lemme know. Thats just what i think.Correct me otherwise

[mokkori]

Whoa, some misinformation here! Correct, Chui Cheung was one of Tam Sam's top disciples. But he was also the disciple of 2nd gen Chan Ngau Sing, 3rd gen Tong Sek, and 3rd gen Hong Duk Gwong. Chui Kwong Yeun teaches under the Hung Sing banner yes, but is also considered Buk Sing as was his father. However, whats the difference between the 2 styles really, especially in those times? I mean at one time even Tam Sam taught under the Hung Sing name, didnt he?

Chui Kwong Yeun teaches the 8 original forms of Hung Sing, the only part of Buk Sing in his curriculum is some of the weapons (Northern Shaolin through Tam Sam) and the "6 Chap Chui Techniques", that some call the Poison Hands.

If you think his Sup Ji Keun isnt Hung Sing but Buk Sing then theres a mistake there. Thats a Hung Sing form. Buk Sing has 3 forms as we all know: Sup Ji Keun, Kau Da Keun and Ping Keun. But the Buk Sing Sup Ji is our "Daai Sup Ji Keun", and the Buk Sing Ping Keun is our "Ping Ji Keun". Now, Kau Da is different. Buk Sing's Kau Da and Hung Sing's "Leen Waan Kau Da" are totally different forms, dont know why but the difference is there alone.

Dont want to cause any trouble by saying this but the only difference between Hung Sing and Buk Sing is personal practitioner preference, and that exists between all practitioners! So I dont know if its accurate to say that Chui Cheung teaches Hung Sing with Buk Sing's philosophy, but that would be the same as Tam Sam taught Hung Sing with his own philosophy!

[chasincharpchui]

hey mate like i said

its gonna be one of the subjects im gonna cover with sifu chui gwong yuen.
my knowledge of chui cheung is very limited.

but save the similarities and differences of hung sing and buk sing talk for another time.

can sifu frank please post a clip of the fut san hung sing clf sup ji kune

[mokkori]

Well very nice to be doubted, glad I shared that with you.


Heres Buk Sing's Sup Ji Keun. Performed by Leung Man Faat, whos a disciple of Jun Chiu Yue, whos a disciple of Lun Chee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGpNFmwwaP8

And heres Hung Sing's Daai Sup Ji Keun. The first performer is Jeh Wing Bun, who is the disciple of Chui Cheung and the god-brother of Chui Kwong Yeun. The second is from Ho Ngau, and clearly identical to our Daai Sup Ji Keun (though mis-labeled):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbNaWZtQq-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEw0rPbp1VE


You can see its the same form, but there are differences in some movements and definitely the flavor of the performance. Chui Cheung is from the Futshan HSK, and just check the involvement with Chui Kwong Yeun and Futshan, you will see that your talking about the same thing.

[chasincharpchui]

Well very nice to be doubted, glad I shared that with you.


Heres Buk Sing's Sup Ji Keun. Performed by Leung Man Faat, whos a disciple of Jun Chiu Yue, whos a disciple of Lun Chee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGpNFmwwaP8

And heres Hung Sing's Daai Sup Ji Keun. The first performer is Jeh Wing Bun, who is the disciple of Chui Cheung and the god-brother of Chui Kwong Yeun. The second is from Ho Ngau, and clearly identical to our Daai Sup Ji Keun (though mis-labeled):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbNaWZtQq-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEw0rPbp1VE


You can see its the same form, but there are differences in some movements and definitely the flavor of the performance. Chui Cheung is from the Futshan HSK, and just check the involvement with Chui Kwong Yeun and Futshan, you will see that your talking about the same thing.

thankx for the clips mokkori

but leung man faats version of sup ji has been modified even if it is from lun chee's line
coz ive seen lun chee do the exact same form, and the differences seen with leung man faats and CC's student are practically non-existent wen sisukjo lun chee does it. he does the lok gwai charp chui to the right and to the left, juss like chui cheungs student does. i know that wasn't the only difference but, we'd have to sit down some time and go over the form in person to really break it down

both those hung sing clips are still from chui cheungs line
what im trying to establish is, is it the same as mainstream fut san hung sing, which is what sifu frank mccarthy does.

also i would like to touch upon the comment you made, and this is only my opinion obviously. you're welcomed to have yours aswell

in those times, there were differences between buk sing and hung sing. if there weren't any differences. then buk sing would neva have been born and would not exist today.

id say there are less differences today with lineages of clf, due to the fact that is is alot easier now to exchange knowledge and see what other styles are like. eg youtube.
styles have evolved over time, coz a certain practitioner sees a technique they like and they encorporate it into their style, and make it apart of their style.

a few years ago i came across a photo of an old clf master, below the foto it had a description.
"4th gen hung sing clf master X X X sifu, in Buk sing Charp chui pose"
if there weren't any differences, why did they have to make the point that he was in a buk sing charp chui pose and not juss a charp chui pose


"Tam Sam taught Hung Sing with his own philosophy"
yes correct, thats why we have Buk Sing
not denying our roots, but we are a different strain
juss like most gung fu in china have their roots from shaolin. but not every style is the same.

i have to disagree with buk sing and hung sing differences only being personal practitioner preference

yes every practitioner has their own way of doing this, but its the fighting philosophy and body mechanics of gwa sau charp that makes us(buk sing) the same
Kong On, Tarm Fei Pang, Lun Chee. 3 different body scrutures, 3 different angles/lines of doing sau choi. but the way they are taught, the way they twicth their feet and lock it in line with the knee and their waist, and the way they whip their hip and slam their sau choi out like a basball bat is the same. the differences between buk sing lineages is very subtle. you prolly cannot see the difference, again this is my opinion, i don't know what you see actually, between Buk Sing and Hung Sing because you are from Chui Cheung's lineage. And Chui Cheung's lineage is a unique lineage of Hung Sing and Buk Sing

[hskwarrior]

chasincharp,

long ago Professor lau bun took his ping kuen, kau da and sup ji and combined them into our sup ji kau da. he was a very forward thinking man and since he possessed a keen sense of fighting he took out all of the repetitive stuff and kept only what was useful.

But I know the dai sup ji, and its hung sing. however, in the video mentioned, there was a few buk sing elements in it.

now, mainstream fut san is going to look different. and each school may have the same forms but each one is going to look different.

what you were saying about the 4th generation hsclf master and the buk sing chop choy is interesting. id like to know who he is to see if i know anything about this master.

I personally feel that the only differences between buk sing and hung sing is individual fighting philosophies. if one is not a fighter, then the gap between the differences will be greater. but if one IS a fighter, and understands his clf, then similarities will be greater in usage. yeah, we all get inspired from watching other schools or even our elders.

now, by watching buk hsing fut gar folks, and folks like the laceys, carey wong, lun chee and such, i can see even in buk sing there are differences. i believe its all on the understanding of the sifu.

now, as it has always been passed down, tam sam was a hung sing man. first and foremost. it wasn't his idea to change the name to buk sing. knowing that he was a hung sing man, i am curious of this......at what point did buk sing choy lee fut began to move in another direction away from hung sing?

Im curious to.......do you buk sing folks know how to distinguish where some of your modifications to hung sing forms are? the reason i ask, is because the current generation of buk sing is distancing itself from its mother school....fut san hung sing kwoon?

also, i ask because i've heard buk sing people say this and that is a buk sing hoi jong.......but when i see it, i see a modified hung sing hoi jong.

so basically, at what point did buk sing begin to take on its own identity? roots are hung sing, many elements are hung sing.......was it the ku ye cheung point?

Grand elder Lun Chee was adamant about the hung sing buk sing connection before he passed away.

[chasincharpchui]

yes i agree, that each school has the same form and its going to look different
but the differences are not major

even i look different to my sifu when i do kau da. my sifu does it stronger, smoother, faster, his stances are much more solid.

but the similarities between buk sing schools are the sequences of movements and the execution. the way buk sing guys do tau lau is unique. for example

each practitioner has their own way of doing the form. and add a movement here and there, take one out maybe. but wen u look past all that u see wat the core of the form use to be in its original form. and wen i see that clip mokkori posted. i just see buk sing, which is what i know.
hey it could be hung sing from fut san, which is why i wanna see a clip of a hung sing man, not from chui cheun lineage, to do their sup ji kune.
im sure there is a hung sing line out there that won't have sup ji kau da. anyone care to show?

u r correct that my sigung, lun chee sisukjo, and wong gwai chuen sisukgung. look different when they do their forms. each has their own flavour. but wen u look at the sequences of movements, the core, i can tell its buk sing.

in regards to the name change of tarm sarm's school. what i heard a few years ago from the elders was that it was sijo tarm sarm himself that changed the name. but i will have to investigate further. definately goin to be another important subject i will cover with senior elders of buk sing in the next couple of weeks, the history, and the buk sing foundations. i will post some of the clips on youtube for everyone to view.

so lets just leave the tarm sarm talk to this point.

[hskwarrior]

here's the first section of our sup ji kau da.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EwWPUhNZ5vo

The techniques in this form or the original hung sing kwoon. Yuen Hai was one of the higher ranked seniors, and after passing it down to prof. lau bun, we have maintained it for over 8 decades.

this set is 3 x's as long, and is only just the beginning of the form.

[hskwarrior]

although its modified a bit, this is the Lau Bun sup ji kau da.
well, most of it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5AeUjPvFye4

[jdhowland]

Is there anything you can tell me about Ho Ngau and his background in CLF?


Ho Ngau's teacher was Ngan Yiu Ting. He also learned directly from Ngan's teacher, Chan Kun Pak. He died sometime in the late '70s. He left a couple of student's who maintained his school in the New Territories. One of them was Lau Siu Ming, I think. I heard recently that she no longer practices because of arthritis.
At one time Professor Ho was said to be the oldest active CLF man in southern China.

As for the sahp jih set, I have no opinion. I learned Ho's siu sahp jih but not dai.

Be well.

[mokkori]

Most people dont know that form as "daai", they just call it Sup Ji. There is a Siu Sup Ji also, but that probably came later, which made the original become Daai. Also, for some reason others call this form Sup Ji Kau Da. Thats confusing though, because traditional Hung Sing has Sup Ji Keun and Leen Waan Kau Da, which would make you think they were mixed together which isnt the case.

Regardless, that form in the video is Hung Sing. Maybe the performer learned it from another source and not Ho Ngau?

[dai mui fa]

Sup Ji is just referring to "cross pattern" (four directions). That's why CLF has siu sup ji, dai sup ji, sup ji chet fu, sup ji kau da, sup ji lien wan kau da......

Going back to the Wooden dummy book topic, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6NEZLsTE0, the video seems to correspond better to the ching jong manuscript. A lot of the photos in Sifu Chu's book are repeated and doesn't follow the manuscript.

I'm just wondering if anyone has tried to learn the wooden dummy form from this book or directly from the ching jong manuscipt.

[mokkori]

Sup Ji is just referring to "cross pattern" (four directions). That's why CLF has siu sup ji, dai sup ji, sup ji chet fu, sup ji kau da, sup ji lien wan kau da......

Your talking about Chan Family CLF!

In Hung Sing CLF the meaning is different, somewhat. Sup Ji is the cross pattern yes, but it also lies at the middle pointing to 4 other forms: Taai Ji Keun, Ping Ji Keun, Gok Ji Keun, Tin Ji Keun. So there are 5 "ji" forms of Hung Sing, with Sup Ji in the middle.

The form also moves in four directions like a cross pattern, but most forms do really. The differentiation between Siu and Daai is irrelevant. Chan Family CLF has Siu Sup Ji, Sup Ji Jit Fu, and Sup Ji Kau Da... and none of those nor any Chan forms are found in a Hung Sing curriculum.

Theres alot of meaning in Choi Lei Fut, its not that superficial.

[hskwarrior]

Dai Mui Fa,

Mokkori Is 100% Correct. You Are Speaking About Chan Family Forms, Which Is Not A Part Of Fut San Hung Sing Curriculum.

[AC_CLF]

This small book is authored by Leo Chu and demonstrated by Ho Ngau. Brendan Lai supply company added an English insert in the late70’s. Later on because it popularity it was re released or reprinted (Chinese) in Macao. Both books retain the same errors, author and printers. Although the book is put together badly it is a classic and much sought out by collectors. It is great clf. Ho Ngau grandson teaches in SF Chinatown. I have scanned the whole book but unfortunately do not know how to downsize my files for this forum's limit.

Hey Buddajoe, I'm new to the forum and by chance read this thread. When I heard this book features a student of Ngan Yiu Ting, my (late) sifu's grandfather, I thought it would be cool to get...but its not being published anymore. Is there anyway to get a copy of your scans? I can even postal mail you my 4gb flash usb drive? Just let me know. Thanks.

[jdhowland]

Hey Buddajoe, I'm new to the forum and by chance read this thread. When I heard this book features a student of Ngan Yiu Ting, my (late) sifu's grandfather, I thought it would be cool to get...but its not being published anymore. Is there anyway to get a copy of your scans? I can even postal mail you my 4gb flash usb drive? Just let me know. Thanks.

AC CLF, i sent you a pm. If you don't get a response i can make a copy for you.

jd