Levels and Sifu.

[Grilo]

Hello, I have read the thread about whether or not one should look out to train with someone with or with out papers. First in the old days there was no such thing as papers. You said you trained with so and so then if disputed you fought. Second being in a industry where people dispute the piece of paper I own as to whether or not I can do my job I understand both sides of this debate. I agree in a level of standard but I also know a piece of paper doesnt mean they can teach either. I have also seen some of the things that count as requirements to becoming a Sifu. My question is what does it take to become a Sifu? And how long do you think it takes to become one?

I hope to be a disciple to the one that teaches me.
Patrick Fougere

[reneritchie]

If you take a student (someone asks to learn from you), you're a sifu. Whether you're a good sifu or not is an entirely different matter, but either way you're a sifu.

It's like having a child. You may be an experienced individual with decades of child-care behind you before you have a child, or you could be barely more than a kid yourself with no idea how to care for anyone, but either way, you're a parent.

Fighting doesn't really matter. Some people never studied WCK, some never studied any martial art, and can fight incredibly well. Teaching quality also doesn't matter. It's a completely separate skill set that requires specific and dedicated training all its own.

So you could find a clueless sifu who fights up a storm but can't teach worth a d@mn. Or one who knows some, can fight some, but can teach you really well. Or one who knows a ton, can't fight out of a paper bag, and struggles to pass things on. One in a million might actually know it, use it, and be able to pass it on to wide range of students with differing needs and learning styles. Grab those when you can, or grab the best total package you can get to consistently enough for it to matter (if Yim Wingchun herself offered to teach you but only for 15 min. every second decade, your progress might be slow).

Sifu is just a word, a martial/religious embodiment of the mentor/teacher/parent relationship, or an honorific applied to anyone with any kind of skill (driving, cooking, chess, etc.)

Best to look beyond the skill to the person behind it. Are they someone who can teach what you need, are willing to teach it, are able to teach it in a way you can pick up, and is consistent enough for you to make progress (bonus points if they're decent human being as well).

[KPM]

I agree with what Rene said. And there are some additional factors to consider. The first one....YOU are responsible for what you learn. No one is going to spoon-feed you the info and skills. If you don't study and practice, its doesn't matter if you have the best Sifu in the world. Likewise, you can have a Sifu that may be lacking but if you really work at things you can make up for it. Gone are the days when a Sifu demanded total loyalty (or at least they SHOULD be gone!). No one should be afraid to investigate other Wing Chun avenues. Watch some good videos. Go to seminars. Check out the Wing Chun where your brother/sister/friends live when you go for a visit. Ask questions. Think for yourself.

A Sifu is simply someone that has accepted the responsibility of sharing their Wing Chun with you....regardless of their level. This is different than someone that is simply looking for a warm body to practice on. If you feel more like a punching bag or fall guy than a student, then the guy pounding on you is not a Sifu!

The flip-side of this is that your Sifu can only teach you what he knows. If he doesn't know the whole system, then you will reach a point where you have "out-grown" him and need to look elsewhere. But just because he doesn't have a piece of paper showing that he knows the whole system doesn't mean that he can't do a hell of a job sharing with you the part that he does know!

[Grilo]

Thank you. That is what I feel but I know a lot of people that require the Sifu to have papers.

[mun hung]

Thank you. That is what I feel but I know a lot of people that require the Sifu to have papers.

Papers from whom? In this day and age, it's just as meaningless as it was in the past. I find that people who both give and receive all of these certifications are somehow looking for some sort of financial gain, or perhaps need it for their own lack of confidence in their art. I've met many practitioners who have certifications from instructors that are overseas or from weekend seminars - and haven't met an impressive one yet. I have met even more of their student who are totally oblivious. And some are Wing Chun "certified". :D

A good SiFu has to be able to apply it, explain it and teach you to do exactly the same. Oh, and it has to make sense. No paperwork required.

[Buddha_Fist]

Certificates are good for keeping your house warm during winter. ;)

More justification for wasting time. Too much Bla-bla-bla, too little "Bam!". It doesn't mean anything. False illusion. Good for Sifu worshippers/weak minded Ving Tsun trekkie geeks who don't achieve anything because of paying too much attention to status and such.

Go train! :mad:

[RGVWingChun]

A'ight, look...I totally agree that a piece of paper CAN mean absolutely nothing. However, if the association or individual that you obtained it from is pretty rigorous in their requirements for instructor certification, then I think it can mean something.

It could be like a college diploma....its just a piece of paper, sure, BUT its what it signifies (or what we hope it signifies) that matters. The paper is another persons testimony about a persons skill level/understanding/ability, etc...

OH yeah....a sifu is a relational title, not a rank ;)

Moses

[Phil Redmond]

A'ight, look...I totally agree that a piece of paper CAN mean absolutely nothing. However, if the association or individual that you obtained it from is pretty rigorous in their requirements for instructor certification, then I think it can mean something.

It could be like a college diploma....its just a piece of paper, sure, BUT its what it signifies (or what we hope it signifies) that matters. The paper is another persons testimony about a persons skill level/understanding/ability, etc...

OH yeah....a sifu is a relational title, not a rank ;)

Moses
I agree and I know a few "certified" Sifus who can throw down and I also know some with no certification that can as well. So it's all relative.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good for Sifu worshippers/weak minded Ving Tsun trekkie geeks who don't achieve anything because of paying too much attention to status and such.

Go train! :mad:" (Buddha Fist)


***EXACTLY !

Really tired of all the photo-op status seekers who "buy" their title/certificate/sash/position

...whatever...in one way or another.

Show me the beef and leave the glass of milk and dessert at home!

[Ernie]

Certificates are good for keeping your house warm during winter. ;)

More justification for wasting time. Too much Bla-bla-bla, too little "Bam!". It doesn't mean anything. False illusion. Good for Sifu worshippers/weak minded Ving Tsun trekkie geeks who don't achieve anything because of paying too much attention to status and such.

Go train! :mad:


Bingo ,,,, you have passed your level 75 free thinker instructors exam .. next time I'm sitting on the throne I will tear off an extra piece of Charmin and sign it for you with a stick figure wing chun drawing of you standing next me in my chair

you can then frame it , show it to your friends or the next guy that attacks you in a dark ally

or just wipe your @ss with it .... probably the best use ;)

by the way what ''element '' are you :D:D:D:p inside joke

[LoneTiger108]

by the way what ''element '' are you :D:D:D:p inside joke

:D I'd be Wood, but was trained as Metal! :eek:

Nice to see such open minded chat about 'certfication' as I've never really believed in it all. If you have trained with a Sifu and helped to teach and actually been 'taught how to teach' by someone with no formal teaching qualifications why would you want one yourself?

I have seen students who would harrass a Sifu for some sort of certificate, then it was me that designed and printed them! :rolleyes: I could've done my own a hundred times over, but I couldn't care less.

I tend to rely on what others know. Who you trained with will always support you and witnesses are the best certfication imho. At our Academy, we offer certificates to denote when students complete a cycle of training but I can't ever see us certifying a Sifu as we don't think people will volunteer to experience what we did back in the day! An Apprenticeship comes first as it did with me...

[couch]

Interesting video on topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb80B3PrNx4

Followed a link from Laukarbo's website/google search.

Best,
Kenton

PS Here's the rest of the vids:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?referrerid=17337&t=72795

[r4cy]

Really interesting. So the conclusion of this is that the title of Sifu should be given by the disciple to his teacher after a strong bond has developed? Wht was the other term he used for Coach, Dailing? or something like that?I like the fact that he's humble enough to let us know that not everybody calls him Sifu, but by his name and how he knows the difference between the people that calls him Sifu and the ones who do not.