Ultimate Demonstration: Pt 2

[edward]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yfYa4RxW1E0

[sanjuro_ronin]

Demos are great to show people what a systems is about, its base, but I really wish that they would also include practical applications.
To be truthful, I never understood why they don't.

[hunt1]

For a real example of practical application one person would have to attack with the real intent to hit the demo giver. The attack would also be random not predetermined. Also the demo giver would have to deal with real random follow up and movement. The result may not look nice and pretty and the demo giver might get hit. Not conducive to impressing a gullible audience with the supreme skill and abilities of the demo giver.

Cooperative opponents are needed to provide the subjects of the demo with the right impression of the demo givers skills.

This is not to be critical of this particular demo. I enjoyed it. Just meant to be a general reply to Sanjuro's question.

[edward]

imagine watching star wars..... darth vader takes one swing, and then obi wan dies.....or better yet watching john woo's the killer or hard boiled.... why isn't it just 1 shot and you die.... do you want to see a demonstration of 1 punch and the guy gets knocked out.... or would you prefer watching a movie that use to be 2 hours brought down to 10 minutes... the answer is pretty obvious

[sanjuro_ronin]

imagine watching star wars..... darth vader takes one swing, and then obi wan dies.....or better yet watching john woo's the killer or hard boiled.... why isn't it just 1 shot and you die.... do you want to see a demonstration of 1 punch and the guy gets knocked out.... or would you prefer watching a movie that use to be 2 hours brought down to 10 minutes... the answer is pretty obvious

So we have either on or they other eh?
Personally I say do both, show the techniques demoed and then show them in a practical way.
Don't see why it has to be an either/or issue.

I recall a boxing demo when I was a kid at our high school, they demoed the moves and foot work and training methods and then did 2 fights each one round.
People got to see the basics, typical training and a real match.

And there was much rejoicing in the village after.

[edward]

so your example, is demo and a sporting event......thus, boxing...... hard to really show off.... demo of wing chun and then killing....until the road warrior situation happens in real life, your gonna have to wait

[sanjuro_ronin]

so your example, is demo and a sporting event......thus, boxing...... hard to really show off.... demo of wing chun and then killing....until the road warrior situation happens in real life, your gonna have to wait

Ok then.
Awesome !
Thanks for the fries by the way.
*looks for ketchup*

[edward]

all is good then

[SAAMAG]

Edward, I don't think that showing the application of wing chun in a more realistic format is going to end in death. That's a ridiculous comment and implies that ANY wing chun movement or defense will immediatly destroy the opponent.

To me, that sounds more like an excuse to not show it for fear of losing face in the event that things don't go well. What if ::gasp:: the teacher actually got hit and didn't defend successfully?! That is moreso the reason why many masters don't show the combat format I think. But then again, I'll try not to be sinical about it.

When I trained with the Ebmas guys, we used real wing chun, meaning we used force and a resisting opponent. We trained to fight...not to play pattycake. And there is a major difference in showing spontaneous reaction using non-killing moves--and going all out to kill someone.

[edward]

Edward, I don't think that showing the application of wing chun in a more realistic format is going to end in death. That's a ridiculous comment and implies that ANY wing chun movement or defense will immediatly destroy the opponent.

you should study your wing chun more then...


To me, that sounds more like an excuse to not show it for fear of losing face in the event that things don't go well. What if ::gasp:: the teacher actually got hit and didn't defend successfully?! That is moreso the reason why many masters don't show the combat format I think. But then again, I'll try not to be sinical about it.




When I trained with the Ebmas guys, we used real wing chun, meaning we used force and a resisting opponent. We trained to fight...not to play pattycake. And there is a major difference in showing spontaneous reaction using non-killing moves--and going all out to kill someone.

as stated clearly by you... we used force and resisiting opponent... ONCE AGAIN.. THAT DOES NOT MAKE FOR A REALISTIC SITUATION, using force or some force is still not the same thing, so your still getting a half as demonstration.....the issue is about demonstrating.... if you have someone whose really trying to hit you... and you think your gonna be able to apply your wing chun without the same intent back, then welcome to fantasy island.



__________________
Van Midthun

[yenhoi]

Somehow using a resisting opponent is worse then a completely choreographed sequence?

Wowsa!

:eek:

[Vajramusti]

a completely choreographed sequence?

-------------------------------------------------------------

((there is no prearranged choreography there. It is neither fighting nor a choreographed event.
It is moving chi sao from one line- measuring timing angles,finding open lines, positions, structural control,distance, balance, footwork,coordination and other important things that are worth mastering in a wing chun approach
to combat. Those principles are being demonstrated.Wing chun is not the only approach to combat. Short of all out combat without referees and rules-the rest is comparative simulations in varying approaches.
When I see other good people doing chi sao I try to learn rather than rushing to judgement. Same for interactions in systems other than wing chun.))

joy chaudhuri

[stonecrusher69]

I thought it was a good demo that showed good skill and control ....What I would do if I was doing a demo like that is after doing it with a student pick someone from the seminar or whatever and tell him or her to try to hit you from the roll and they can see for them self that it's not so easy as it looks.

[SAAMAG]

Edward, I don't think that showing the application of wing chun in a more realistic format is going to end in death. That's a ridiculous comment and implies that ANY wing chun movement or defense will immediatly destroy the opponent.

you should study your wing chun more then...


Honestly Edward...and I mean no ill will towards you personally...but seriously...go and fight someone full contact, and come back and talk to me. What you are implying in your statement is nonsense and quite frankly irresponsible to anyone studying under you. If you value your students safety, please don't make them think that their wing chun is going to kill someone as soon as they touch them. Flippy hands are no match for someone who is used to taking 800lb per square inch attacks.



When I trained with the Ebmas guys, we used real wing chun, meaning we used force and a resisting opponent. We trained to fight...not to play pattycake. And there is a major difference in showing spontaneous reaction using non-killing moves--and going all out to kill someone.

as stated clearly by you... we used force and resisiting opponent... ONCE AGAIN.. THAT DOES NOT MAKE FOR A REALISTIC SITUATION, using force or some force is still not the same thing, so your still getting a half as demonstration.....the issue is about demonstrating.... if you have someone whose really trying to hit you... and you think your gonna be able to apply your wing chun without the same intent back, then welcome to fantasy island.

You're right, it's not real fighting. Hell, the UFC is not real fighting. But who do you think will be more prepared for a real fight? Someone who is conditioned to give and receive hits or someone that does chi sao all day?

But I also find it odd that you feel you can't tone down your skills to just slightly below "killing mode" in order to practice with some realism. In fact it's total B.S. and you know it. If you can't adjust your skill level, then you've got no skill. That's real talk.

Take a look at Phil and Victor's classes...or hell even the guys in NY. Take a look at many other lines that apply their wing chun in a sparring fashion with gear. They still practice wing chun...but somehow don't kill each other. How is that possible? Hmmmm.

Anyway....I'm off the soap box now. What's needed to be said has been said. Hopefully those reading this will be able to see past the magnificent cloud of mysticism still being proliferated by many of the "masters".

[edward]

Honestly Edward...and I mean no ill will towards you personally...but seriously...go and fight someone full contact, and come back and talk to me. What you are implying in your statement is nonsense and quite frankly irresponsible to anyone studying under you. If you value your students safety, please don't make them think that their wing chun is going to kill someone as soon as they touch them. Flippy hands are no match for someone who is used to taking 800lb per square inch attacks.

I would respond to this.. but even if i broke this down to kindergarden level.. it still won't make any sense to you.....

You're right, it's not real fighting. Hell, the UFC is not real fighting. But who do you think will be more prepared for a real fight? Someone who is conditioned to give and receive hits or someone that does chi sao all day?

If you want to believe you train to take hits.. then by all means, keep going that path...




But I also find it odd that you feel you can't tone down your skills to just slightly below "killing mode" in order to practice with some realism. In fact it's total B.S. and you know it. If you can't adjust your skill level, then you've got no skill. That's real talk.

yeah, i'm sure that's what i said...



Take a look at Phil and Victor's classes...or hell even the guys in NY. Take a look at many other lines that apply their wing chun in a sparring fashion with gear. They still practice wing chun...but somehow don't kill each other. How is that possible? Hmmmm.

yeah, i've taken a look.. need i say more....


Anyway....I'm off the soap box now. What's needed to be said has been said. Hopefully those reading this will be able to see past the magnificent cloud of mysticism still being proliferated by many of the "masters".

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was a great demo and there is no denying the skill, it's just the same as most WC demos out there that's all.

[Vajramusti]

It was a great demo and there is no denying the skill, it's just the same as most WC demos out there that's all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem...WC world is quite diverse.Dont care to quibble about what"same as most WC
demos may mean"

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was a great demo and there is no denying the skill, it's just the same as most WC demos out there that's all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem...WC world is quite diverse.Dont care to quibble about what"same as most WC
demos may mean"

joy chaudhuri

Unless of course you call something " the ultimate"...;)

[Vajramusti]

I didnt post that title and neither did A.Fong.

joy chaudhuri

---------------------------------------
PS to the list rather than a separate announcement...

my website has been revamped though some more articles are yet to be reloaded.
www.tempewingchun.com

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didnt post that title and neither did A.Fong.

joy chaudhuri

---------------------------------------
PS to the list rather than a separate announcement...

my website has been revamped though some more articles are yet to be reloaded.
www.tempewingchun.com

I think that Sifu Fong would be the last to call that demo or any demo "ultimate".
From what I hear he is a humble gentleman that knows his stuff.

[mun hung]

...or hell even the guys in NY.

Uh, which guys in N.Y. do you mean? If you mean any of Alan Lee's students, we pad up to do most of our drills because it is senseless getting hurt while practicing against real force. Especially when someone digs their elbow or knee into your shin. Ouch!

A chisau demo is a chisau demo. Nothing wrong with it. It's Wing Chun. And it's probably exactly what SiFu Fong wanted to demonstrate to the spectators.

Joy, how are you? Hope all is well.

Peter Koo

[SAAMAG]

...or hell even the guys in NY.

Uh, which guys in N.Y. do you mean? If you mean any of Alan Lee's students, we pad up to do most of our drills because it is senseless getting hurt while practicing against real force. Especially when someone digs their elbow or knee into your shin. Ouch!

A chisau demo is a chisau demo. Nothing wrong with it. It's Wing Chun. And it's probably exactly what SiFu Fong wanted to demonstrate to the spectators.

Joy, how are you? Hope all is well.

Peter Koo

Nothing wrong with padding up. My point was that a lot of the schools up in that area practice against force in a real time environment.

[Vajramusti]

That was a demo of moving chi sao per invitation at a multi style event.kung fu. Not a fight.

Internet chat threads easily end up zig zagging- forgetting the context.

Because one shows a chi sao clip does not mean that is all that they do.

Hi Peter- good to see your post. Feel free to stop by any time you are in this area again.

Hello to Marcus and Sifu Lee.

joy chaudhuri

[mun hung]

Nothing wrong with padding up. My point was that a lot of the schools up in that area practice against force in a real time environment.

I guess it's because NYC itself can sometimes become "a real time environment." :D

We currently work out in the South Bronx.

[SAAMAG]

I was up in NYC (manhattan) and I understand that the environment is much different. You see it on TV but until you "see it" and go down in the subways and feel it...you just don't realize.

I felt like anything could happen at any time...like I ALWAYS had to be on guard walking around town--depending on where I was at though. The only person that gave me **** though was this fat puertorican chick standing in front of me on the subway during high traffic. She didn't like the fact that I yawned "in her face". Go figure. I told her to mind her business and she started blabbing something I couldn't understand. Then her guy friend started to tell her to shutup.

But yea just about every place I've seen in NYC does some form of fight training or resistance training. That's why I mentioned it the way I did. You guys, Vic, and others. I just wish I could've spent more time up there to train some.

[mun hung]

I wish I could have the opportunity to travel to AZ again. I really enjoyed my last visit. Especially being asked to leave that one school. Time is so limited these days. Please PM me your number so that we can discuss ANYTHING else but Wing Chun. LOL.

Haven't been on this forum for quite some time, but it hasn't changed much. Wing Chun practitioners still love arguing over nothing and turning good discussions into rants! I actually miss it! LOL!

Van, yes it's a concrete jungle over here and so I will be offering my protective services to anyone visiting NYC. j/k On the serious tip, it's really not as bad as it used to be. It's actually 'The Safest Big City in the US" or so they say. If you should come to NY again - let me know. I know all the best Chinese restaurants around, plus a pretty hardcore school to visit. ;)

We just had a visitor the other night who was called "ch*nk" two separate times during a ten minute walk to the school from the subway. Yes, the South Bronx is interesting indeed.

Why the South Bronx, you ask? Lot's of space for cheap! ;)

[SAAMAG]

I haven't been back in a while either. But yea...same ol stuff and same players. But it's all in good fun. Martial artists are all fighters at least by heart...so a little debate never hurt anyone.

Intellectual debate is a lot safer than physical debate anyway, and though it's not as fun, you can at least go to work without looking like Ed Norton in fight club.

[mun hung]

I know. I know. I just went through some of the threads and found some of the old same, that's all. No harm. It's actually entertaining and a meaningful way of killing downtime in the office (much better than spider solitaire). At least there is a Wing Chun discussion board, right? It's all good. :)

BTW - The first rule in fight club is not to talk about fight club.

[KPM]

I think that Sifu Fong would be the last to call that demo or any demo "ultimate".
From what I hear he is a humble gentleman that knows his stuff.

I haven't just heard it, I've experienced it! What you say is true. :)