How do you explain internal vs external?

[SPJ]

I know this topic has been beaten to death oh so many times.

however, if a new student comes to you and ask you the Q?

what would be your answer?

:D

[SPJ]

I usually started with the theory of Yi, Qi and Li.

Chinese medicine and Chinese MA have this theory.

1. Yi or the will or intent;

we have to practice it by stationary posture first. to clear mind of all things.

after some time of practice. we start to practice moving slowly, focus on will and use a little or no force.

2. Qi breathing exercise

breathing exercise, meditation, and self hitting Pai Da gong. etc

there are soft and hard qi gong.

3. Li force or power

Jin practice. understanding the flow of the power/jin. how to generate, transfer, deliver/express etc.

how to receive, interact, divert/redirect etc.

internal and external are inseparable.

Yi and Qi practice are considered as internal cultivation.

Li practice is considered as external.

with the limits of our anatomy, we may produce only so much power from musculoskeletan structure.

however, internal cultivations are considered "unlimited", if we cultivate them more, they will help our external aspect.

--

I just open a big can of wurms.

:D;)

[MasterKiller]

I usually started with the theory of Yi, Qi and Li.

Chinese medicine and Chinese MA have this theory.

1. Yi or the will or intent;

we have to practice it by stationary posture first. to clear mind of all things.

after some time of practice. we start to practice moving slowly, focus on will and use a little or no force.

2. Qi breathing exercise

breathing exercise, meditation, and self hitting Pai Da gong. etc

there are soft and hard qi gong.

3. Li force or power

Jin practice. understanding the flow of the power/jin. how to generate, transfer, deliver/express etc.

how to receive, interact, divert/redirect etc.

internal and external are inseparable.

Yi and Qi practice are considered as internal cultivation.

Li practice is considered as external.

with the limits of our anatomy, we may produce only so much power from musculoskeletan structure.

however, internal cultivations are considered "unlimited", if we cultivate them more, they will help our external aspect.

--

I just open a big can of wurms.

:D;)
Yeah, but you just expressed the "Three Treasures," which are supposed to be inherent to all CMA systems.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

External refines the work of the muscle/structure/alignment process..

Internal adds to that the refinement and understanding/cultivation/application of bio-physical energies..

If we were speaking of autos, external would work on the bigger and better parts.. Internal would be very interested in the quality of fuel..

The best benefit is a balanced approach..

Be well..

[ChukaSifu2]

I don't know if this is what your looking for, but I simply express to my students that an External hit is nothing more than a thump or thud on the surface of your opponents body. Same when you are hit with an External hit, it is only surface contact.

Internal is when you cause damage to your opponents internal organs and such, same as when you get hit, it goes inside and can cause internal injuries.

Both of these only apply if you understand the ability to choose how to hit. Internal power(Inside) damage, External power(outside)damage,surface hits.

[ChukaSifu2]

Now for angles and power generated.

External, all muscle(crude).

Internal, Chi + Don Tien + Skeletal power.

[David Jamieson]

I don't.

It's a crap theory that shouldn't exist.

As a human, you are both and cannot escape either, ergo my statement above.

[Black Jack II]

It's a crap theory that shouldn't exist

I don't know if David is getting more middle of the road or something, but I agree more and more with some of his posts.

What the hell is happening or am I high?

[Lucas]

The way I look at it:

External = Beginner. You have just began your journey in martial arts. ALL movements begin crude, and basic. With limited knowledge of the inner workings of skeletal alignment, posture, minute coordination, etc.


Internal = Advanced student. You have been practicing long enough to have reached a point of understanding of the basics, and now are in the process of dealing with the smaller intricacies of the martial arts. Breathing, structure, power development beyond basic muscle contraction, etc...



IMO, they are inseperable, but you cannot "know" the "internal" aspects of a martial art until you have put in the time to reach a point where things become "visible" to your "eye". So to speak.

It is of my opinion that ALL highly experienced martial artists utilize internal martial arts. Otherwise, you would never get past the intermediate stages of your studies.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Internal:

Power generated by the core body through an expansion/contraction in an accordian like motion combined with open and close of the Kua. This drive the limbs which add thier power to the core's. All parts of the body move in unison to each other.

External:

Power is generated mostly by the Limbs. The core body just transfers from the lower limbs to the upper limbs, with minimal power added by the torso. There is a bit of twisting, but no expansion contraction.

Or it could be said this way,

External mostly transfers power from lower limbs to upper, but does not generate much power itself. Things move in a progressive step by step order, but not in unison.

Internal, core body generates a large percent of the power which is added to the power the limbs generate. There is a unique expansion contraction (like an accordion) NOT seen in external arts. Everything moves in unison.

[sanjuro_ronin]

External: Kick to the groin

Internal: Toe strike to the prostate

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

External is like someone chopping down a tree with a large Ax, or Chain saw.

Internal is like when a lighting bolt vaporizes the tree in a millisecond. :D

[David Jamieson]

it quickly falls into the muck and myre of vague anaolgy doesn't it?

lol, you know why? because it's crap!

people say "internal is like wind pushing you over and external is like a hand pushing you over" and so on. But, these are obvious differences and are simply one type of force or another. Neither is internal or external, they simply are.

the more it gets "studied" the more it becomes and even bigger crapfest than it was when it was first pondered or postulated.

Like religion! lol

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the more it gets "studied" the more it becomes and even bigger crapfest than it was when it was first pondered or postulated.

Reply]
No, the more you study it the more it becomes clear there are distinct bio mechanical differences. It also becomes clear what those differences are.

[MasterKiller]

Internal:

Power generated by the core body through an expansion/contraction in an accordian like motion combined with open and close of the Kua. This drive the limbs which add thier power to the core's. All parts of the body move in unison to each other.

External:

Power is generated mostly by the Limbs. The core body just transfers from the lower limbs to the upper limbs, with minimal power added by the torso. There is a bit of twisting, but no expansion contraction.

Or it could be said this way,

External mostly transfers power from lower limbs to upper, but does not generate much power itself. Things move in a progressive step by step order, but not in unison.

Internal, core body generates a large percent of the power which is added to the power the limbs generate. There is a unique expansion contraction (like an accordion) NOT seen in external arts. Everything moves in unison.

Since when does External create power from the limbs?

External power is generated from the waist.

[David Jamieson]

the more it gets "studied" the more it becomes and even bigger crapfest than it was when it was first pondered or postulated.

Reply]
No, the more you study it the more it becomes clear there are distinct bio mechanical differences. It also becomes clear what those differences are.


pish posh bra. That's a load of hooey.

limbs are limbs, the body is a unit as a whole, it uses and converts and expels and evacuates and consumes etc etc.

you can increase mass, you can decrease mass, you can increase strength and power and you can increase force output with method and practice.

You have one body and it includes all the energies you use, the mind you use, it contains you as a person and your concious thought.

when your body is gone, that's it, you're done and all that's left is someone elses memories.

if we comprehend that, then there simply is no internal/external question and there never was.

[sanjuro_ronin]

External power = Beer belly
Internal power = Gas after Taco Bell

[mantis108]

First, I would ask him/her to do crunches and I would explain that he/she should try a couple dry couching as they are laying on the floor. I would ask them to remember the feeling of the abdominal muscles being activated. Then I would hit his/her belly when the do the crunches with the muscles activated.

Second, I would ask him/her to do a vocalization exercise as if singing in the opera. While he/she activated the vocal cord, I would gently squeeze, those activated muscles near the Adams apple. they will stop vocalizing or even gag once those muscles are grab.

Third, I would demonstrate a rear naked choke on him/her. He/she would feel the blood rushes and tap.

Four, I would ask him/her to put on the gloves, hit the heavy bag for 3 mins and then do a 5 mins round of kickboxing with medium strenght contact with me.

I would then ask then if he/she feels out of air, pain, panic and/or collapsing during all of the above demostrations? If the answer is yes to the all questions, then he/she understand what no Qi means in the martial sense.

Fifth, I would do a cool down sesssion with meditation with him/her. Then I would ask how him/her feels. If they feel great, relax and re-energized, then he/she knows what Qi means in the meditational sense.

So, there is my five-step Qi orientation plan. ;)

Now, shall we focus on training?

Mantis108

[Sicilian Tofu M]

External & Internal is just like Yin & Yang, you can't seperate them. The soft styles have external in it and theirs internal in the hard styles. All styles are at their best in or near the middle of the road.

[cjurakpt]

I would explain to them that, as regards CMA, the whole internal / external thing was something that came into vogue somewhere around the time of Sun Lu Tang, as a way for so-called "internal" stylists to try and convince people that instead of doing aerobic conditioning and resistance training, if you worked on increasing kinesthetic awareness and efficient transfer of ground reaction force through the connective tissue matrix in concert with balanced agonist / antagonist neuromuscular interrelationships, then you would be not only a better fighter, but more importantly live to a ripe old age (as long as you didn't get into fights, LOL); this was based on integration of martial training with Taoist "internal" practice, meaning specific cultivation designed to activate certain autonomic nervous system phenomenon via breathing, body postures, etc., all ostensibly in the name of longevity / immortality

in other words, philosophical nit-picking to explain why what some people did was better than what other people did without actually having to go and prove it necessarily; and I think you can all agree, that it's almost exclusively the "internal" people who go into the long-winded justifications as to how and why it's better than what those unrefined, crass, boorish, superficial, short-sighted, brutish, deluded "external" guys do, "only" using muscle power; then they prove this by performing feats of skill that require only your pre-disposition to believe them and almost complete compliance to set-up and execute...:rolleyes:

ultimately, when you step back for a moment and really think about it, the distinction is inherently artificial: the body is the body, depending on what you do with it you will get different results; and what we know is that a person can be a vicious and effective fighter without having ever done / heard about any of this stuff, and similarly can live a happy, healthy life to a ripe old age without any of it as well; the problem is that people get all "intellectual" about and start talking about how internal / external hit differently (superficial vs. deep; extremities vs. core), when none of these distinctions actually make sense or actually occur, or they resort to bizarre metaphors to describe the difference (external is like tying a cat to a tree and then chasing it around until it runs out of rope and bangs into the tree; internal is like taking the tree and chopping it into wood-chips, selling them to a farmer who uses them to fertilize a zucchini patch, and then feeding the zucchini to the cat; see?)

overall, it's a distraction, and serves only to satisfy our mind's neurotic need to categorize and organize in order to make "sense" out of the inherent chaos that is life;

the way to go about it, I believe, is to see clearly what one wants to do, and why, and go from there; if you want to increase awareness of one's own "inner" state, then there are many ways to do that - you can practice taiji, you can contemplate your navel, you can cultivate a garden, you could even (gasp) lift weights or box - it's not the what, it's the how: do you live your life paying attention to what you do / say / think, or do you just react habitually? you might be the greatest taiji player in the world who lectures his students about being in harmony with the taiji principles, and then go home and be an aszhole to your wife and kids - at least if you were a 'roid raging power lifter who was a schmu(k at the gym as well as at home, well, at least you aren't a phony...;)

use clarity; be simple; forget contrived distinctions - this is the key

[Steve Hamp]

I don't.

It's a crap theory that shouldn't exist.

As a human, you are both and cannot escape either, ergo my statement above.


I couldn't agree with this statement more. As I have been taught, both do both. You develop both internally and externally by training.

People have said that "external" styles will harden the exterior of ones body. While "internal" styles build up the internal.

Don't they all?? My Teacher said that the internal styles were taught (once upon a time) to the rich, the upper class, ect... and the external styles were taught to the masses.

There is no such thing as Internal and External. And I know people will post the fact that Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Pa Kua are the three "internal" styles. If that is the case (which I'm not disputing that) are they then any better than Shuai Chiao, Preying Mantis, Hung Ga, ect...??

Of course not. David, is abosolutly correct when he stated that "it's a bunch of crap". Just train, and search for more, keep learning, and stop "blindly" following a "teacher" as if he or she has ALL of the answers.

--Steve

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, lets ULTRA simplify this for those that are not getting it.

EXTERNAL: The majority of the power is limb Generated, Limb Focused, Limb derived. Core body only transfers power (Like when A Boxer twists his hips on the power strike)

INTERNAL is focused on generating power with the core body/ Torso with an expansion, contraction motion NOT seen in external movement. This is ADDED to the limb actions seen in the external movement.


Or even MORE simple:
INTERNAL is an added dimension of movement during power generation that is focused on the Core body expansion/ contraction action not seen in external motion.

External does not have this added core body focused power generation.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, lets ULTRA simplify this for those that are not getting it.

EXTERNAL: The majority of the power is limb Generated, Limb Focused, Limb derived. Core body only transfers power (Like when A Boxer twists his hips on the power strike)

INTERNAL is focused on generating power with the core body/ Torso with an expansion, contraction motion NOT seen in external movement. This is ADDED to the limb actions seen in the external movement.


Or even MORE simple:
INTERNAL is an added dimension of movement during power generation that is focused on the Core body expansion/ contraction action not seen in external motion.

External does not have this added core body focused power generation.

someone is feeding you a line. all too vague? expansion and contraction of the torso? what are you going on about. you cannot move your body in any direction whatsoever without muscular contraction and arterial expansion! :-)

[Sicilian Tofu M]

What does this fall under, when power starts at the feet, goes up the legs to the wast up the back through the shoulder and arm and out the fist, all parts adding to the power, EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

[David Jamieson]

it's the posterior chain. the linkage of our skeletal structure and the muscles that move it about is there whether we regard it as internal or external.

people who say things like you have said "power starting at the feet"

what exactly do you mean by that? you have capacitors in your feet that shoot energy up your body and out your hands in the form of blue balls of energy?

or are we talking about kinetic energy..which has well documented and studied understandings of what it is and what it isn't.

[Lucas]

What does this fall under, when power starts at the feet, goes up the legs to the wast up the back through the shoulder and arm and out the fist, all parts adding to the power, EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

A good punch?

[Rockwood]

Don't speak, hit. That should clarify things.

-JessO

[cjurakpt]

What does this fall under, when power starts at the feet, goes up the legs to the wast up the back through the shoulder and arm and out the fist, all parts adding to the power, EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

neither - it's called efficient biomechanics...

[Sicilian Tofu M]

it's the posterior chain. the linkage of our skeletal structure and the muscles that move it about is there whether we regard it as internal or external.

people who say things like you have said "power starting at the feet"

what exactly do you mean by that? you have capacitors in your feet that shoot energy up your body and out your hands in the form of blue balls of energy?

or are we talking about kinetic energy..which has well documented and studied understandings of what it is and what it isn't.

Power from going into your stance, aka footwork. Is it EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

[cjurakpt]

Ok, lets ULTRA simplify this for those that are not getting it.

EXTERNAL: The majority of the power is limb Generated, Limb Focused, Limb derived. Core body only transfers power (Like when A Boxer twists his hips on the power strike)

INTERNAL is focused on generating power with the core body/ Torso with an expansion, contraction motion NOT seen in external movement. This is ADDED to the limb actions seen in the external movement.


Or even MORE simple:
INTERNAL is an added dimension of movement during power generation that is focused on the Core body expansion/ contraction action not seen in external motion.

External does not have this added core body focused power generation.

Uechi Ryu, done well, has exactly that torso quality to it (being derived from southern mantis / dragon / bok mei / whatever) - but wait a bit: that's crotty, which can't possibly be considered internal...:rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What does this fall under, when power starts at the feet, goes up the legs to the wast up the back through the shoulder and arm and out the fist, all parts adding to the power, EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

Reply]
You are talking about a transmission of power, but not actuall generation of power by the torso through the expansion/contraction accordion like motion, so it is an external method. Also, since power *Starts* at the feet and moves up, that is external as well. In an internal method, power does not stat anywhere. ALL parts generate power simultaneously body wide, with the majority being produced by the expansion/contraction of the torso. Since your description did not include this it is external.


Uechi Ryu, done well, has exactly that torso quality to it (being derived from southern mantis / dragon / bok mei / whatever) - but wait a bit: that's crotty, which can't possibly be considered internal...

Reply]
Then it is an internal art same as South Mantis and Dragon is. Although those arts have a lot of tension, so they would be considered Hard internal arts compared to Taiji which would be a soft internal art.

Baiji is also an internal art too.

Internal has all the elements of external motion, with added core body power generation from the unique expansion/contraction action (often referred to as Coiling) that is NOT found in an external motion.

It is similar to an accordion expanding and contracting. You can see it best by watching the spine of the practitioner. You will visibly see it lengthen, or compress and shorten in a manor that sort of looks like hunching forward during the power issuing motion. Internal issues power during the expansion stroke as well.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Watch this masters spine. see how it lengthens and compresses in tune with his every move?

Se how one thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops everything stops?

See how power spontaneously generates from all sources instead of starting at the feet and moving up the chain?
THAT is internal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxByDCdC64

[SanHeChuan]

you forgot the video:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Power from going into your stance, aka footwork. Is it EXTERNAL or INTERNAL?

neither. it is the simple act of stopping and making yourself solid then launching your attack. It is not internal or external, it is simple physical principles. the more solid the structure, the more sound the structure the more fortified an dthe better for a base of attack.

nothing internal or external about it. It is structural strength by placement vs structural weakness by placement.

[David Jamieson]

Uechi Ryu, done well, has exactly that torso quality to it (being derived from southern mantis / dragon / bok mei / whatever) - but wait a bit: that's crotty, which can't possibly be considered internal...:rolleyes:

If we look at an example where the item in question is actually being applied, we can look at any number of m.o.q type boxers and see this expressed over and over again.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Not really. They move independently along a sequential chain rather then in total unison.

Also, if you look at them, thier core transfers power, but does very little to produce it. It's more of a stabilizing action.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really. They move independently along a sequential chain rather then in total unison.

Also, if you look at them, thier core transfers power, but does very little to produce it. It's more of a stabilizing action.

You should look into William CC Chen and his Taiji.

[David Jamieson]

Not really. They move independently along a sequential chain rather then in total unison.

Also, if you look at them, thier core transfers power, but does very little to produce it. It's more of a stabilizing action.

If yer talking about boxers, I totally 100% disagree with your observation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When it comes to displays of "internal" power I always look for the demos that show either a practial application (full contact) or a application on a punching bag or target of sorts, ( imagine how many of those I have seen), I then compare it to a "typical external" demo.

[David Jamieson]

When it comes to displays of "internal" power I always look for the demos that show either a practial application (full contact) or a application on a punching bag or target of sorts, ( imagine how many of those I have seen), I then compare it to a "typical external" demo.


without ability to practically apply, it doesn't matter what it is, it's useless. lol.

If it cannot be demonstrated it is crap. Often, the failure is in the ability to demonstrate effectively these 'concepts' on anything less than an arm-hanger waiting to be hit.

all that aside, almost any exercise is better than none, but the semantics around internal; vs external are crap and you won't find them in any other physical regimen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

without ability to practically apply, it doesn't matter what it is, it's useless. lol.

If it cannot be demonstrated it is crap. Often, the failure is in the ability to demonstrate effectively these 'concepts' on anything less than an arm-hanger waiting to be hit.

all that aside, almost any exercise is better than none, but the semantics around internal; vs external are crap and you won't find them in any other physical regimen.

And that is the crux of the matter, all the IMA practioners that I know or know of that use their IMA in a practical way, like CC Chen, all have a "scientific" view of what "internal" means, IF they even use the term "internal".

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The "classics" say that the body moves as a single unit.. power is generated in all places at the same time, exploding (or emerging unnoticed) from the DanTien in all directions.. the feet pressing into the ground with the same force applied by the hands..

They move independently along a sequential chain rather then in total unison.
Aside from the weakness of fragmented expression.. there is the issue of timing. Everything issuing at once is noticably faster than waiting for the "power" to travel a "sequential chain". It's like a spring, it expands applying force equally to all connections.. if you try to crush a beach-ball it doesn't rely on a sequential set of events to push back, it pushes equally in all directions.. "be the ball, Danny"..

Be Well..

[David Jamieson]

Greetings..

The "classics" say that the body moves as a single unit.. power is generated in all places at the same time, exploding (or emerging unnoticed) from the DanTien in all directions.. the feet pressing into the ground with the same force applied by the hands..

Aside from the weakness of fragmented expression.. there is the issue of timing. Everything issuing at once is noticably faster than waiting for the "power" to travel a "sequential chain". It's like a spring, it expands applying force equally to all connections.. if you try to crush a beach-ball it doesn't rely on a sequential set of events to push back, it pushes equally in all directions.. "be the ball, Danny"..

Be Well..

I think that is an overall gross behaviour of a pliable sphere though Bob when you talk about a ball and how it handles pressure.

We, are not spherical and do not exert force equally in all directions from our centre out. when stressed, we either collapse or push back specifically against or to redirect the force that is upon us.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

We, are not spherical and do not exert force equally in all directions from our centre out

Reply]
Actually, we can be taught to do this. After all the years you have been doing martial arts, how is it you are so behind the rest of us in this area?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We expand or contract at the points of connection, the result of "listening, sticking, adhering, and Peng".. if you push my left shoulder it retreats as my right shoulder advances.. add the arm hand to the right shoulder and your push on my left powers the return energy on the right.. Push the sphere on one side and that side retreats and stores energy inward, which pushes outward over the rest of the surface.. now, as you push another area, it is stronger and more likely to push back, thanks to your energy being "borrowed"..

If i take the spring out of a ball-point pen and compress it between my thumb and index finger, it applies the same return force to my thumb and index finger.. One of Taiji's missed opportunities in when students focus on hands and arms with less focus of feet and legs.. its like trying to get the spring to push in one direction.. If i put the spring on a table top and push down, there will be the same force registered at each end.. it pushes outward from its center (Peng)..

Be well..

[SoCo KungFu]

The funny thing is, and now I'm by no means really experienced in martial arts. I've only done kung fu for about 9 years. But the same principles I learned in Taiqi I also experienced all of them in various applications in the northern mantis and tan tui kungfu I started off in and later in some snake and also in the Hung Gar that I practice now. Heck, that same starting at the center and exerting force in all directions was in the Guillotine I tapped my partner with the other night in BJJ.

Whether the concepts of internal vs external were once separate ideals or not (and I'm inclined to believe not) they have both been around so long that pretty much any style still around has elements and developments of both (which I actually think are just same--good efficient body mechanics).

Ironically the only man I've personally ever met that I could say without a doubt fight with his Taiji (and not that it matters but he wasn't even my personal taiji teacher though he did teach me Hung Gar), broke a lot of the so called taiji rules that I had beat into my skull by my taiji instructor.

Needless to say my Hung Gar sifu changed a lot of the things I previously thought about fighting. About as much as my BJJ teacher I got now.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If we go by the premis that it was all once internal, then external could be described as undeveloped body mechanics....which is wide spread.

Your Taiji Teacher was not fighting with Taiji if he broke the rules of Taiji.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings..

We expand or contract at the points of connection, the result of "listening, sticking, adhering, and Peng".. if you push my left shoulder it retreats as my right shoulder advances.. add the arm hand to the right shoulder and your push on my left powers the return energy on the right.. Push the sphere on one side and that side retreats and stores energy inward, which pushes outward over the rest of the surface.. now, as you push another area, it is stronger and more likely to push back, thanks to your energy being "borrowed"..

If i take the spring out of a ball-point pen and compress it between my thumb and index finger, it applies the same return force to my thumb and index finger.. One of Taiji's missed opportunities in when students focus on hands and arms with less focus of feet and legs.. its like trying to get the spring to push in one direction.. If i put the spring on a table top and push down, there will be the same force registered at each end.. it pushes outward from its center (Peng)..

Be well..

My western boxing coach used to say the same thing.

[SoCo KungFu]

If we go by the premis that it was all once internal, then external could be described as undeveloped body mechanics....which is wide spread.

If this is the case then why are there still even external styles? Why didn't everyone just start doing Taiji and Baqua if they have something that all the external styles don't? Because it all just comes down to timing and coordination. And knowing when to use force and when to retreat. There's nothing special about any of that.


Your Taiji Teacher was not fighting with Taiji if he broke the rules of Taiji.

I'm more inclined to believe it was that he actually knew what it took to issue force in a real fight, something that unfortunately most taiji sifu have not a clue...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My western boxing coach used to say the same thing.

Reply]
Then his Boxing is internal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My western boxing coach used to say the same thing.

Reply]
Then his Boxing is internal.

Well, he did use to eat a lot of mexican food.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Taiji is much more than a "style".. it is a set of principles.. These principles will operate flawlessly in any situation.. if the "style" troubles you, forget it.. study the principles, they can be found in Kung Fu, or Karate, or Ping-Pong, or fishing..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

A fine example of External and internal MA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyztIcD8CX8

[SiMui]

Hey, check out Sifu Sharif's take on internal and external kung fu....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HCzVJrfs7A

[David Jamieson]

We, are not spherical and do not exert force equally in all directions from our centre out

Reply]
Actually, we can be taught to do this. After all the years you have been doing martial arts, how is it you are so behind the rest of us in this area?

lol, or maybe im ahead and you guys are stuck in some stream of words that goes nowhere has no evidence, has no proof and is merely a stop shield that is put up when contradictions are met. Such as you have done with "how is it you are so behind the rest of us in this area?"

Contractions and compressions and releases don't ahve anything to do with anything outside the normal function of our bones and muscles.

seriously, in my opinion, you guys who invest scads of time into this are robbing yourselves and getting caught up in a swirl of mud that will take you nowhere.

You know it, I know it and it's ok.

the terms were invented out of fear, conceit, jealousy, laziness and political difference. In truth, the human body is a holistic unit that functions in harmony within all its parts.

if it falls out of harmony, it's because you are treating it wrong, being lazy, feeding it wrong, exercising poorly and so on.

Anyway, in all the years I've trained, I've met plenty of so called internal martial artists. Many of them would not demonstrate with any sort of reality level being allowed and if that was the case, out the window with the tai chi and here come the regular grabs, jabs and haymakers.

lemme tell you something, when someone is hammering on your face while they sit on your chest, you will NOT be pondering on what power generated from the waist will do and you will not be wondering about how jin can be borrowed form the ground. You will simply act or you will continue to be beaten . lol

you wanna convince people of that crap, then do something convincing with it. So far, this is not the case.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi David: You are quite mistaken, "you wanna convince people of that crap, then do something convincing with it. So far, this is not the case. " The evidence is everywhere, you have simply reduced your perspective to a specific set of variables.. first, before "someone is hammering on your face while they sit on your chest", they will have to get to that position, that's the fallacy.. not just good Taiji, but any MA worth its salt will avoid that situation, generally.. I train with BJJ, Muay Thai, NHB types, etc.. and in a practical setting, skill-set vs. skill-set it's not untill i cross-hands with a highly skilled grappler that the issue is of much concern.. low or mid-range skill-set grapplers routinely leave way too many openings..

Contractions and compressions and releases don't ahve anything to do with anything outside the normal function of our bones and muscles.
You are correct.. except that you're not.. Take two evenly matched fighters of "external" training, then.. train one in the skills of Taiji utilizing that type of power expression.. the Taiji will add an advantage difficult to overcome..

if that was the case, out the window with the tai chi and here come the regular grabs, jabs and haymakers.
I'm sorry you've had such poor experiences, there are many of us that could change that perception.. but, you're right.. the vast majority of Taiji training is pathetically ignorant of real Taiji skills.. good, even great, Taiji skills don't "look" terribly different in a fight.. they "feel" completely different.. my BJJ coach says it's like trying to tie water in a knot.. good Taiji is as explosive as any MA in actual application, timing and spatial control trained to advantage..

One of my teachers starts application classes with everyone getting hit in the face and head with 12 oz. gloves pretty hard.. his theory, and i agree, is that most people lose their training when they struggle to not get hit.. we try to overcome this weakness by "knowing" it's very likely we'll get hit, and dealing with it.. being able to continue with the flow of the contest after being hit hard is an essential element of training.. Combat Taiji shares little in "appearance" with the "floaters" in the park, but.. the principles are Universal.. well, if the "teacher" knows them..

In closing, it is disheartning to see MA putting down Taiji because it's outside their realm of experience.. but, i do understand the perception, given the state of the Art, currently..

Be well..

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WOW a SCATHING and utterly ignorant reply from Kung Lek!!

The people like you who get all in a huff about this for no apparent reason have some sort of personal issues not realted to this topic if you get my drift.

the terms were invented out of fear, conceit, jealousy, laziness and political difference. In truth, the human body is a holistic unit that functions in harmony within all its parts

Reply]
Ahhh, we see what the issue is. YOU suck and have no idea what internal martial arts are.

Let me tell you something....come over here nice and close so you can hear.

Internal movement is a DISTINCT, quantifiable and easily identifiable set of movement principals that are NOT seen in external arts.

I can do it, demonstraight it and explain it as well as compare and contrast the similarities and differences to the external styles.

I work out with a good bunch of guys with great techniques. When we do basic drills and such they work just fine, but when I go internal on them they cannot effect me. Why? you ask? Because the internal principals allow me to maintain my structure and redirect thier energy around my center so the take downs lose thier effectiveness. This simple CANNOT be done with external methods because it requires core body controll that is unique to internal methods and just not seen in external styles.

If these body methods were seen in external styles, then there would be no differentiation between internal, and external.

It's not about whether or not you use muscles, it's about where the power generation is centered. In external, it's centered in the limbs (for the thousandth time), in INTERNAL, it's centered in the core body in a way that is NEVER seen in external styles.

And again to beat this into David's thick annoying skull.....the INTERNAL METHODS are distinct, quantifyable, teachable core body skills that are used in unison with every part of the body at once.

David, you are like a high school grad who never went to college who is telling a college grad that none of his college courses exist and what he learned there was no different than the highschool level you never went beyond....

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vhr5pOHb2o

Yep, that is some nice internal power generation from Max Chen.
:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Contractions and compressions and releases don't ahve anything to do with anything outside the normal function of our bones and muscles.
Similarly, while both are electricity.. AC and DC currents differ in measurable and identifiable ways.. a bit like internal/external..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpdGPx0i7BE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37g4drBXRxc

Simple explantion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some Chen Taiji:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6cyY0ZZvc

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nothing we do physically is outside the realm of physics as it is applied to biomechanics.
Nothing.

[SPJ]

Some Chen Taiji:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6cyY0ZZvc

kool.

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6cyY0ZZvc

the power is rooted on the feet,

however, the power is centered around dan tian and exploded outward as pointed out.

the will/intent is centered/concentrated on dan tian.

or the will/intent is guarding dan tian.

Yi Shou Dan Tian.

well, Yi and Qi are very difficult to explain.

I guess something has to be done to know, it is not easy to explain with words.

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

very good examples of tai chi principles.

1. you come and I welcome, you go and I send you home. (follow)

2. contact, link, stick and follow, zhan nian lian shui.

3. the power of the opponent is followed in the general direction(1 shun), neutralization (hua) and redirecting (walk or zhou).

----

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSLPDovllXM

One of the finest examples of Jing out there.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

sanjuro_ronin: Excellent clip of Max's work.. i have trained with the Chens, and yep, that was some good internal power.. the point being, that used appropriately, it is almost unobservable.. the internal aspect was most observable in the set-up.. classic uprooting and push, followed by a very well executed kick while the opponent was struggling with position correction.. nice work.

Be well..

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

very good examples of tai chi principles.

1. you come and I welcome, you go and I send you home. (follow)

2. contact, link, stick and follow, zhan nian lian shui.

3. the power of the opponent is followed in the general direction(1 shun), neutralization (hua) and redirecting (walk or zhou).

----

:)

yes some of the principles do exist in all styles.

I guess Tai Chi may pay more attention to the balance of one's self and that of the opponent.

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSLPDovllXM

One of the finest examples of Jing out there.

yes. not only the qi, and power/jin comes out or centered on dan tian.

it also demo total relaxation of all body parts song

and suddenly outburst and tightening fa.

storing or harnessing the power like pulling a bow.

releasing or expressing the power like shooting an arrow.

xu jin ru zhang gong.

fa jin si fang jian.

:)

I will be very tired just with a few fists, and elbows and shoulders.

I won't last long.

I am out of qi pretty soon.

:D;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, Ajarn Chai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2MYViouHo

Notice the relaxed power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings..

sanjuro_ronin: Excellent clip of Max's work.. i have trained with the Chens, and yep, that was some good internal power.. the point being, that used appropriately, it is almost unobservable.. the internal aspect was most observable in the set-up.. classic uprooting and push, followed by a very well executed kick while the opponent was struggling with position correction.. nice work.

Be well..

Yes, his MT is coming along nicely :D

[Sicilian Tofu M]

So if internal power is core related, but still needs a root, power comes 1st from the ground even if the body moves all at the same time. If not, a internal stylest should be able have the same power floating in space. Hung gar is big on core movement and a strong root, but people concider it external, I think all styles have both just start at diffrent points and work to the other, including the hard/soft thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

An interesting view:

What is "Internal"?
"Internal" has a number of meanings. At a very basic level "Internal" refers to the particular way in which physical force is generated. This force is produced by skillful use of the whole body in harmony.

In Chen style this force is not only generated from the outer muscles but also from deeper muscle tissue (especially the muscles around the spine, hips and diaphragm) and from the energy that can be stored in the rubber-like elasticity of joint tendons/sinews. With correct alignment and movement this force can be built up in muscle/joint groups and transferred cumlatively around the body. It can be released in powerful or even explosive-like movements of considerable, focused force.

"Brute force", on the other hand, relies simply on outer muscle strength (and often only a few local muscles at that) and is considered "external".

Internal arts take longer to master because joints must be loosened up, seldom used muscles must be strengthened, very subtle body movement skills must be aquired, "involuntary" muscle group movements must gradually come under the control of the mind so that they can be "discharged" at will. The end result of course is greater force for same amount of exhertion.

This Internal/External dichotomy is in fact a sliding continuum and no martial art is purely one or the other. More experienced practicioners of the "External" martial arts will more than likely exhibit a greater use of internal force as the years go by. Conversely the Internal martial arts have some movements that make little use of internal energy and only after many years of dedicated training will the disciples of these Internal martial arts manifest useful internal energy.

Some historians suggest that "internal" refers to those martial arts that are taught privately and thus kept hidden - as was the case with Chen style TaiChi (known only to the families in Chen village until the early 1900s.)

There is also a suggestion (Japanese influence?) of an historic association of the Internal Arts with the ruling classes and care for the body; while the External Arts are associated with "commoners" and indifference to the body. The reason is somewhat pragmatic. Commoners needed to be trained quickly for war by their rulers. Also, the rulers didn't mind too much if these effective fighting systems actually damaged the commoners body's over time because their lives were often considered short and unimportant. The nobles and rulers, on the other hand, had plenty of spare time to learn and practise the more difficult Internal methods which were ultimately superior systems - at both martial art and bodily health levels. The External arts had the better "bang for the buck."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think you will all appreciate this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaXLi-hx-9Q&NR=1

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you will all appreciate this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaXLi-hx-9Q&NR=1

Why?
LOL !

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I thought it was humorous!

[cjurakpt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vhr5pOHb2o

Yep, that is some nice internal power generation from Max Chen.
:D


Greetings..

sanjuro_ronin: Excellent clip of Max's work.. i have trained with the Chens, and yep, that was some good internal power.. the point being, that used appropriately, it is almost unobservable.. the internal aspect was most observable in the set-up.. classic uprooting and push, followed by a very well executed kick while the opponent was struggling with position correction.. nice work.

Be well..

just to consider for a moment that the guy he fought was absolutely horrible, no structure, no footwork, no timing, no clue...

[Black Jack II]

Funny thing is, call it what you will, its all about hitting people hard, and if you can't do that under pressure, to make your power generation system function at some kind of core level when the adrenal glands kick in, than the whole deck of cards comes falling down on one lonely dwarf hooker.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think I'm the one in the huff here RD. lol

seriously though, 'internal/external' division is a load of crap.

holistic is what we are.

[rogue]

When I read the title of how do you explain internal vs external I had an answer but realized you guys were talking about something else.

[Lucas]

Now, Ajarn Chai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2MYViouHo

Notice the relaxed power.

Very nice

123

[Black Jack II]

That tai chi link was good Ronin but you can see that these students actually use more of a full body movement. You can see the full body movement link up in some of these short forms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XLbD_QbT6k

[Lucas]

That tai chi link was good Ronin but you can see that these students actually use more of a full body movement. You can actually see the full body movement link up in some of these short forms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XLbD_QbT6k

This method has also been proven to result in higher qi levels than average.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VIeVeZ3IcI&feature=related

as far as the hip moves.

--

:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I read the title of how do you explain internal vs external I had an answer but realized you guys were talking about something else.


Ohhhhhhhh........you mean they were talking about Tai Chi and Kung Fu????:eek:






:o................................ZIP............. ...............

[sanjuro_ronin]

My Qi is rising to near Taoist levels !

:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Internal and external are both inherent to Martial Arts.. the question is one of focus and balance.. most result for least effort..

Be well..

[Sicilian Tofu M]

What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAIgdR-FLrI&feature=related

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Sicilian Tofu M: Kudos.. It is absolutely great to see people taking a good look at the Connective Tissue System (CTS).. i've been studying it for years and find that it is a very critical component to understanding the whole process.. and, we're just beginning to research the CTS's amazing properties/connections.. There is so much more to it than the clip implies.. Rick Barrett's "Through the Western Gate" is a good read on the subject.. also, Lynne McTaggart's "The Field"..

Be well..

[Eric Olson]

Some Chen Taiji:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6cyY0ZZvc

Those were great!

EO

[cjurakpt]

What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAIgdR-FLrI&feature=related

suspect at best - the whole premise of the discourse appears to be based on the opinion of one guy (Glassey, DC; read article here (http://www.healtouch.com/csft/highway.html), it's pretty much the same thing that is discussed in the video), who, while taking his initial premise from what appears to be established research, goes off theorizing ad liberatum, without providing providing any evidence to back up why his ideas should be taken as such; so, while it sounds nice in principle, it is not based on any objective findings; which is fine, of course, but that is not made fully clear from what is discussed in the video and so should be taken with a large grain of salt (to his credit, Sifu Shariff does qualify his remarks at the beginning in terms of that he is simply repeating what he has been told, and is not himself propounding it as undisputed truth - so I am not getting on his case as he is simply discussing something that he has heard, just talking about the subject matter itself)

so for example, the proposal of why neuropeptides are found in CT is because the CSF carries it there is not supported in the mainstream research; the other thing to bear in mind is that Glassey's method is directly related to the "product" that he is selling: that is, his "unique" method of manual treatment is predicated on his personal theory, so there is at least some self-interest associated with it (this is not uncommon to see in the world of manual therapy - for example, Upledger, DO has his own pet theory about how CSF "works" which runs contrary to the "disinterested" body of CSF research, and his whole premise of treatment rests on this); again, it's not wrong per se if someone wants to do this, but it just should be put in context (and I am not saying that what Glassey teaches doesn't "work" - that's a whole other discussion - I'm just pointing out the context of the argument)

[Eric Olson]

Seems like a lot of theorizing without empirical evidence to back it up. That's not science, its theorizing.

EO

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Eric: Try Googling "Connective Tissue Tensegrity", the first 30-40 results will indicate the "science" behind the theories.. i think you'll be surprised..

Be well..

[Eric Olson]

Hi Bob-

I wasn't referring to tensegrity theories but rather the idea that the connective tissue is in communication with the CNS because of the presence of neuropeptides.

However that does bring up the question of whether "connective tissue tensegrity" is something that can be scientifically tested?

Can you imagine a test for it that could falsify the theory? That's the Karl Popper's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper) criteria for scientific testing: the ability for the theory to be falsified by the experiment.

(Weird, I just had deja vu, have we had this discussion before?)

EO

[cjurakpt]

Seems like a lot of theorizing without empirical evidence to back it up. That's not science, its theorizing.
exactly - and what happens with a lot of these pet theories, in fact what seems to be a key indicator, is that they seem to tie up all the loose ends - that is, they present the problem, solve it very neatly, but do not open up inquiries for further examination (kinda the opposite of what you mention below)


I wasn't referring to tensegrity theories but rather the idea that the connective tissue is in communication with the CNS because of the presence of neuropeptides.
yeah, it's really a bit of a leap to pose this - I mean, it may be plausible that neuropeptides migrate into the CT system, but why would they necessarily be carried along by CSF?


However that does bring up the question of whether "connective tissue tensegrity" is something that can be scientifically tested?
I believe that it has been demonstrated vis a vis how connective tissue works under various types of loads (my wife has done some work on this, looking at CT from the tensegrity perspective, so I am basing this on what I recall from her work); according to the theory, when CT is subjected to a compressive load, it transfers forces discontinuously, allowing the forces to be absorbed / dissipated, and when subjected to a distractive force, it aligns to allow the force to be continuously transfered - this is based on, if I recall, visualization of CT under these two circumstances and noticing how the fibers orient under these types of situations; of course I am summarizing, so I may have not communicated it correctly, and therefore may have forgotten some parameters - but I'll ask her when she gets home...


Can you imagine a test for it that could falsify the theory? That's the Karl Popper's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper) criteria for scientific testing: the ability for the theory to be falsified by the experiment.
now this is very interesting, if nothing else, from an epistemological perspective; in a way, it function not dissimilarly to a dialectic syncretism, such that you have a case of relative disorder (PS1) leading to some sort of organization via the TT / EE process, which decreases the relative disorder, but then opens up a new avenue of inquiry, increasing yet again the uncertainty in the system; not far off from Yin / Yang theory, or even deconstruction, if we consider the inherent phasic polarizational properties of the process itself;

as far as applying it to CT properties / function in context of tensegrity, I would have to think about how it might apply... maybe insertion of strain gauges to measure transfer of force or some such? dunno...

[Oso]

'zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzwzwhhu? beer? oh, wrong thread.



the division is indivisable.



I talked w/ a buddy of mine tonight who is a boxer, pro level in Mexico but came to the states and couldn't get a sponsor...so, he's just chilling playing some soccer and raising kids, super nice guy, I talked him into doing a clinic for us sometime.

we got a round to talking about hook punches and played a bit and this dude had some amazing internal power...you could just see the power gathering around his back foot on the ground, flowing up his leg to his spine and then issuing out of his fist in a bright flash of light....no...wait...that's what happened when he connected wit ma skull.

[Eric Olson]

I think internal=harmonious motion. Where it appears you aren't doing much of anything because you aren't internally opposing yourself. Carrying excess tension in the body and in movement is inefficient. (There is a mental component to this because a divided mind=a divided body. )

The "internal arts" (ie nei jia) just take this concept to a new level of refinement and formulate a systematic way to train for it.

But, there is no question that other arts, including boxing, work toward "harmonious motion", so the division between internal and external arts becomes somewhat arbitrary.

Cheers

EO