Lama Pai Crescent Kick

[diego]

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=ciydu6cv.6purf78n&Uy=-f8raat&Ux=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWrGuWU2Nk

at 00:31 Tristan does the inside crescent kick I was shown in Kaido's kajukenbo-Hop Gar the same hand slaps the foot. Usually when I see this kick in other styles they use the oppossitte hand...using the same hand is technically harder.

Anyone else use this or have any information on why some styles choose one way over the other?.

[CLFLPstudent]

I have seen and done it both ways - same and opposite.

When doing multiple kicks ( Piin Teui into Seung Fung Teui) I usually do one on each hand - inside crescent opposite hand, jumping inside crescent on the same hand.

In the Lama Sup Ji I like to use the opposite hand just because you land in a poon sau/so choih and I find it more comfortable to slap my left hand, then do the poon sau as opposed to switch.

That being said I don't think there is any difference or reason which hand is used. Of course I could be completely wrong :D

-David

[lkfmdc]

just FYI......

The way it is done in that clip is NOT the way CTS taught that set

[jdhowland]

It may have to do with how the individual interprets the technique. The "paak" or pat with the hand does two things: it illustrates the point and time of contact to judge the quality of the kick and it indicates that one hand is holding and stabilizing a part of the enemy's body. As an example: hold your opponent's forearm while kicking his shoulder joint.

JD

[Lama Pai Sifu]

In that form, you are supposed to kick with the OPPOSITE hand, no question about it.

Also - a lot of jumping, running and skipping in that form that left my mouth agape. That is NOT how it was done by CTS and I have never taught it that way either.

It's really been significantly altered. Not so much in sequence, but the leaving out of a few techniques and 80% are done differently.

[yaoli]

In that form, you are supposed to kick with the OPPOSITE hand, no question about it.

Also - a lot of jumping, running and skipping in that form that left my mouth agape. That is NOT how it was done by CTS and I have never taught it that way either.

It's really been significantly altered. Not so much in sequence, but the leaving out of a few techniques and 80% are done differently.


the student has so much natural talent & potential and it would be a shame if he is being taught improperly.;)

[diego]

In that form, you are supposed to kick with the OPPOSITE hand, no question about it.

Also - a lot of jumping, running and skipping in that form that left my mouth agape. That is NOT how it was done by CTS and I have never taught it that way either.

It's really been significantly altered. Not so much in sequence, but the leaving out of a few techniques and 80% are done differently.

I remeber the thread when the altering of that form was mentioned, for my case though this is ****ing curious ****e:)...Kaido taught that kick in the 70's when Tristan was in diapers...where did this kick come from...we always do it like this....with your right hand grab the right side of his head and slam your right inside crescent kick heel into the left side of his face...use it after you hit his groin making him bend over...

[Satori Science]

just FYI......

The way it is done in that clip is NOT the way CTS taught that set


In that form, you are supposed to kick with the OPPOSITE hand, no question about it.

Also - a lot of jumping, running and skipping in that form that left my mouth agape. That is NOT how it was done by CTS and I have never taught it that way either.

It's really been significantly altered. Not so much in sequence, but the leaving out of a few techniques and 80% are done differently.

Not exactly sure what your point is, I though it was well preformed and the question was about the commonality of this kind of crescent kick in Tibetan arts. Do you perform every moment in your system exactly the way your Sifu did? Exactly the same? You haven't evolved at all since you learned your forms 20 years ago. Your Sifu taught forms right?

Please explain to me which one of these forms is the correct one, they are all Sil Lum 6 right....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcVDuxJqJWY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne5gbchYgGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lyMNVhUH4g

seems like most Sifu's change their forms a little and "evolve" them. Like the awesome vids Sifu Mike put up about Lama & Hop Ga

The criticism of Tristan seems fairly unfounded. I can say from experience that his kung fu is first rate for guys our age, he is a good friend.

Not trying to start trouble as I'll be in NYC studying Sun Style with my Shifu Ping Cheng all summer and training with my brothers Gus & Tristan and Sharif and Ben Hill aka MoShan....
I hoped to maintain a good relationship with you as Ping has good things to say about you and Sifu Mike. Your Lama looks quite a bit like the Bak Hok I learned on canal st. 4 years ago and so it interests me.

[lkfmdc]

Not exactly sure what your point is,



The point is, you can not use that youtube clip as indicative of what CTS taught. Really pretty simple




The criticism of Tristan seems fairly unfounded.



There wasn't any criticism of Tristan, just a plain statement of fact, what he did is not the way the form was taught by CTS. He could have done a perfect version of Bassai Dai (a shotokan set) and while we could laud his fine performance, we'd also say "that is not CTS material)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

on the contrary; I think Tristan is a very good martial athlete. I think he performs well. That is not the question which was brought up. It wasnt a matter of whether or not his kick was right or wrong, just about opposite hand or same hand. CTS did both types, but it is opposite in that form. No one is ragging on Tristan or anyone else here.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Dude, who cares? The hand is for spotting. It has no martial value...........

You could say--it's for targeting, or for accuracy, or even for iron palm if you want.

Who cares? The form looked good to me.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Dude, who cares? The hand is for spotting. It has no martial value...........

You could say--it's for targeting, or for accuracy, or even for iron palm if you want.

Who cares? The form looked good to me.

You are leaving out another component. It is not taugth as either or any of those things in the Lama style.

and "Who cares?" Obviously the people that are taking the time to write on this thread, you being one of them, or so it seems.

The fact that you say it has no martial value....says a lot. Maybe you should consult your buddies John T. or your other alter ego. And am I correct in saying that you are a Shaolin Do student???

[diego]

It may have to do with how the individual interprets the technique. The "paak" or pat with the hand does two things: it illustrates the point and time of contact to judge the quality of the kick and it indicates that one hand is holding and stabilizing a part of the enemy's body. As an example: hold your opponent's forearm while kicking his shoulder joint.

JD

Hello JD, paak geuk is that a tactic or the name for this type of crescent kick...what's Geuk?.:)

Has anyone seen the hand method Tristan and Kaido use for their tornado kicks?.

[perpetualstudnt]

I still think it would be a wonderful learning experience to see something taught by CTS performed by either Sifu David Ross or Sifu Michael Parrella at full speed and intensity. There have been multiple videos put up of Sifu Steven Ventura that were incredible. Loved watching every second, and would love to see more. I'm just not sure why your posting up vids of Ventura and not yourselves...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I still think it would be a wonderful learning experience to see something taught by CTS performed by either Sifu David Ross or Sifu Michael Parrella at full speed and intensity. There have been multiple videos put up of Sifu Steven Ventura that were incredible. Loved watching every second, and would love to see more. I'm just not sure why your posting up vids of Ventura and not yourselves...

Vids of Steven Ventura were from Demos that we just happened to have on tape. There are instructional videos out there of me doing a few forms. They don't suit you? That's too bad I guess.

If you want to see David Ross, I suggest you go visit him. Nothing to be 'not sure' about. If I had video of me doing a lama form at a demo, you'd see it on youtube. In most of the older demo's I usually demo'd CLF.

Why are you complaining about not being able to see either myself or David Ross - why do you even care? Don't like criticism? Dont' put your videos out there.

Frankly, it wouldn't matter what I showed you. You saw my students compete in the same division as you did at the 5 tigers tourny a few years ago. You saw differences then, right? Didn't make a difference to you, right? You're still training the same way? So what would you LIKE to see? What would it matter?

As far as 'wonderful learning experiences', it's probably best to stick to learning with your Instructor. :)

There is no secret that your instructor is not really on good terms with myself (although we recently chatted) or David...

Why are you trying to poke a stick at it...? If I showed you that the crescent kick is done with the other hand, what exactly would that mean to you???

Just stick to what your teacher shows you and don't worry about his classmates.

[lkfmdc]

Hey Mike! Do you know what one Klansman said to the other one?

"Same sheet, different day"

:rolleyes:

[diego]

so has anyone seen this kick in other styles?.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg

@ 3:10 Brendan Lai shows an application of this kick:) distract the eyes and trip!.

[Yao Sing]

Dude, who cares? The hand is for spotting. It has no martial value...........

You could say--it's for targeting, or for accuracy, or even for iron palm if you want.

Who cares? The form looked good to me.

Have you considered the hand pushing a head into the kick, as in left hand smacks the right side of opponents head while the crescent kick targets the left side?

Ever see a fighter try to hold his opponent's head still while he punches him in the face?

Is a stationary target easier to hit than a moving one?

Does a strike hit harder when the target can not move away from it in the other direction?

[cjurakpt]

It's really been significantly altered. Not so much in sequence, but the leaving out of a few techniques and 80% are done differently.
specifically, the footwork / body angles are significantly altered on the two diagonal roads with the open palm sequences (from 00:38 - 00:49), to the point where the move looses it's essence; and FYI, I remember those moves more so than most rest of the form, because CTS went to significant pains to break them down in detail, and was very in-your-face about getting them right (he seemed to really like the apps for them, so it was like a personal thing, I guess, LOL)


Do you perform every moment in your system exactly the way your Sifu did? Exactly the same? You haven't evolved at all since you learned your forms 20 years ago.
this is apples and oranges: there is a huge difference between evolution based on long term familiarity with and deep understanding of a system, and the reason given in this case (bold mine):


In the Lama Sup Ji I like to use the opposite hand just because you land in a poon sau/so choih and I find it more comfortable to slap my left hand, then do the poon sau as opposed to switch.
hardly seems like a comprehensive basis off of which to make a change of that nature, especially at an early point in one's martial career where one maybe ought really to not be so creative and be more in line with what one is specifically taught by one's teacher

[INDENT]
The criticism of Tristan seems fairly unfounded.
and if in fact anyone actually had criticised him at all, I suppose you would have a point :rolleyes:


Dude, who cares? The hand is for spotting. It has no martial value...........
wrong; there is a very specific application related to the hand being slapped by the kick


so has anyone seen this kick in other styles?.

an outside to inside crescent kick slapping the opposite hand? um...Tae kwon Do; Shotokan; probably a bunch others...

[diego]

specifically, the footwork / body angles are significantly altered on the two diagonal roads with the open palm sequences (from 00:38 - 00:49), to the point where the move looses it's essence; and FYI, I remember those moves more so than most rest of the form, because CTS went to significant pains to break them down in detail, and was very in-your-face about getting them right (he seemed to really like the apps for them, so it was like a personal thing, I guess, LOL)


this is apples and oranges: there is a huge difference between evolution based on long term familiarity with and deep understanding of a system, and the reason given in this case (bold mine):

hardly seems like a comprehensive basis off of which to make a change of that nature, especially at an early point in one's martial career where one maybe ought really to not be so creative and be more in line with what one is specifically taught by one's teacher

[INDENT]
and if in fact anyone actually had criticised him at all, I suppose you would have a point :rolleyes:


wrong; there is a very specific application related to the hand being slapped by the kick



an outside to inside crescent kick slapping the opposite hand? um...Tae kwon Do; Shotokan; probably a bunch others...

lol, right heel slams into right palm...not opposite, right heel to left palm, that's too easy...;) kaido and tristan are the only peeps I seen do this...

[cjurakpt]

oh, I see - so apparently Tristan was talking about the first kick, the jumping inside crescent, in terms of hitting the left / opposite hand; that is correct - the one in question is the second one, where he hits the right hand with the right foot - that's the one that we are discussing; so in regards to the rationale for doing it, instead of personal preference, now there is just an unknown

[HOKPAIWES]

so has anyone seen this kick in other styles?.


Both methods are common in the systems of PakHokPai/HopGar, TaiChiChuan and ShaolinBlueDragon that I have trained in.

[diego]

Both methods are common in the systems of PakHokPai/HopGar, TaiChiChuan and ShaolinBlueDragon that I have trained in.

What's Shaolin Blue Dragon?.

[diego]

oh, I see - so apparently Tristan was talking about the first kick, the jumping inside crescent, in terms of hitting the left / opposite hand; that is correct - the one in question is the second one, where he hits the right hand with the right foot - that's the one that we are discussing; so in regards to the rationale for doing it, instead of personal preference, now there is just an unknown

you guys don't do that kick?.

[Lucas]

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=ciydu6cv.6purf78n&Uy=-f8raat&Ux=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWrGuWU2Nk

at 00:31 Tristan does the inside crescent kick I was shown in Kaido's kajukenbo-Hop Gar the same hand slaps the foot. Usually when I see this kick in other styles they use the oppossitte hand...using the same hand is technically harder.

Anyone else use this or have any information on why some styles choose one way over the other?.

My longfist teacher had us kick both hands (as in same hand then opposite hand, smack, smack)for line drills often. Both with inside and outside.

[Lucas]

The reason for kicking the hand with cresents in many forms (mainly concerning the inside) for many styles, was explained to me through my shaolin as;

holding the hair/head/ears and snapping an inside cesent. Of course this is just one interpretation of the reason for doing this. Though to me, I can see the reasoning, as inside cresents, even in rather close quarters, are rather fast and powerful kicks to throw to the head. From a CMA standpoint.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Allow me to clarify:

Chan Tai San taught both way to do that kick. I dont' know why everyone is making such a big deal of it. The only thing I said was that it was not done THAT way in THAT form.

I think you guys are beating this down a bit.

No one said that tristan's kick is wrong/incorrect. It is just not the kick that is supposed to be in that form, no big deal.


and WTF is Shaolin Blue Dragon??

[cjurakpt]

you guys don't do that kick?.

Chan Tai San taught both way to do that kick...No one said that tristan's kick is wrong/incorrect. It is just not the kick that is supposed to be in that form, no big deal.
what Mike said...


What's Shaolin Blue Dragon?.

and WTF is Shaolin Blue Dragon??
ok, so I'm not the only one who thought that when they read it...

[CLFLPstudent]

hardly seems like a comprehensive basis off of which to make a change of that nature, especially at an early point in one's martial career where one maybe ought really to not be so creative and be more in line with what one is specifically taught by one's teacher.


I think you think I am tristan - I am not. ( I hear an Eddie Murphy Honeymooners sketch here...)

I also think I am agreeing with you Chris, in that it should be the right kick/left hand here. You have seen me do the Sup Ji in Carle Place a few years ago while we practiced for Wong 06.

I was just trying to be 'diplomatic' so that a whole war didn't erupt over this thread :rolleyes:

-David

[lkfmdc]

1. CTS taught several ways to do crescent kicks/several different "crescent kicks" as well

2. They HAVE applications

3. The posted clip is not indicative of what CTS taught. It may be entertaining, well done, excite you, make women go weak in the knees, etc etc blah blah but seeing as I am the one who learned the set and then taught it to the rest of the hing-dai, believe me when I say that the set as taught by CTS is different

[HOKPAIWES]

Hard, Fast and Hard is the motto of Blue Dragon. Southeren Shaolin Blue Dragon ( Tao Dai Nam Ro Gen Shao Lin Gung Fu) was a womens school of Chinese kung fu, heavy into grappling and whipping strikes. The system is taught in 7 main kuens from beginner to advanced and focus on 4 principles of combat, Confrontation-Approch-Contact-Exchange. The 7 systems Dao Shou, Quan Te Yin, Lao Mie, Ning Po, Eagle Claw(Yo Ho Pai), Howler Monkey(Chow Dong) as well as the Dragon(Nien Po) make up the bread and butter of curriculum.

The 13 postures of Sun TaiChi, 8 palm changes of Bagua and 5 drills of Hsing Yi(chop-split-drill-crush-pound) were intermixed between the training for flavor. I some how managed to learn these extras though I never had a Hsing Yi class for example a day in my life. The old school Chinese must have had a great sense of humor to set this up this way, I can't do a formal Hsing Yi set to save my life, but I can hit you with it, lol.

The history that students are given to trace their art is after the burning of the Fukien temple members fled north where blue dragon was made part of the Tien Shan Pai until the boxer rebellion. The rise of the nationalist movement drove the Bon family to move from China to Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Phillipines and finally to California then settling in Oklahoma where the school was located until Master Pagoda Thay Doc Bon died in a car wreck around 1990.


I promise I'm not trying to hijack your thread Diego, just figured the question deserved a better answer than just saying it's a "martial art".

[TenTigers]

you sure you don't mean Tien Di Hui, and not Tien Shan P'ai? Is it the same Tien Shan P'ai as Willy Lin taught in Washington DC?
It seems to have alot of mixed dialects as well.
confusing.:confused:

[HOKPAIWES]

you sure you don't mean Tien Di Hui, and not Tien Shan P'ai? Is it the same Tien Shan P'ai as Willy Lin taught in Washington DC?
It seems to have alot of mixed dialects as well.
confusing.:confused:


Hi,

The history I was given is that the monks fled after the Fukien temple burning to form the five family systems of Shao Lin and the nuns fled to Tien Shan Pai and were considered to be part of it because it is there that the system was preserved. Tien Shan Pai was a mountain sect of Taoist and Buddhist practioners, Pai as in Pak Hok Pai means family or sect. Tien Shan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian_Shan ).

As for the dialects, I don't speak Chinese at all. I just remember the names of stuff.:)
Hey wasn't it the Lions Roar guys who burned down that temple?, interesting that I wind up in both systems. I bet they really used to hate each other.

[diego]

on the contrary; I think Tristan is a very good martial athlete. I think he performs well. That is not the question which was brought up. It wasnt a matter of whether or not his kick was right or wrong, just about opposite hand or same hand. CTS did both types, but it is opposite in that form. No one is ragging on Tristan or anyone else here.

How come youi usually only see the opposite hand type in martial art demo's?...kaido style always uses the same hand/foot:)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

How come youi usually only see the opposite hand type in martial art demo's?...kaido style always uses the same hand/foot:)

I think you are reading into this way too much. if kaido had a personal preference,...then that's the way he did it. It's not a secret technique, no matter which hand you use.

[diego]

I think you are reading into this way too much. if kaido had a personal preference,...then that's the way he did it. It's not a secret technique, no matter which hand you use.

reading too much...okay, kaido and tristan is the only place i seen it...it's harder than the standard method...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

reading too much...okay, kaido and tristan is the only place i seen it...it's harder than the standard method...

I told you though - CTS did do that kick (just not in that form) and I have seen it done by many other people. I'm just saying it's not as rare as you are suggesting, trust me.

[diego]

I told you though - CTS did do that kick (just not in that form) and I have seen it done by many other people. I'm just saying it's not as rare as you are suggesting, trust me.

Thanks Mike:)...Kaido uses this method for his tornado kick and the other specialty kick he does is the hook hand heel slash kick, can you tell me the chinese name for this crescent kick?.

cheers