center of gravity

[norrin]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

[KPM]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

[couch]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

Chiro Keith!

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing. This, again, backs up why L5-S1/S1-S2 joints are always the chief complaint for back pain. In my world, the Kidney energy governs the lower back, so I generally just treat Urinary Bladder 23 (Back Transporting Point of Kidney) @ L2.

Back on topic, while the WC forms train wonderfully where to put your COG (SNT=Sitting, CK=Shifting/Moving, BJ=Bending), I personally think that by trying to hit a heavy bag, structure and COG is rocked and is then made to adjust. This, plus trying to hit a moving target (missing) messes with that COG.

So, for me, forms, heavy bag hitting, and missing all fix and stress the COG.

I hope to meet you one day, Keith. I think we'd have a lot to gab about!

Best,
Kenton

[norrin]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

i dont know if i really mean the kwa movement--->http://youtube.com/watch?v=PtBPZmRGC3M

this is not found in wing chun-but if you watch this clip. they are trying to use their COG to get their straight forard power into the opponent without loosing balance.
maybe i used the wrong word with COG, maybe dynamic rooting would be a better word for it.look at the big boy with the white shirt on
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wnb3DrnVfvQ

he is trying to "walk through his opponent" but he is leaning forward a bit-which is wrong. what we cant see is are they using power from their upper body or are they using the COG to build up a structure so that they can be relaxed in the upper body and just push the other guy with their COG or dynamic rooting?

do you guys know what i mean?
in WC we usually use the waist for pivoting and with the pivot comes the power in the strike but i see myself often "standing up" in a way while pivoting and punching instead of sinking down.
what does it feel like when you sink?
i mean do you feel any muscles in your body getting more tensed or more relaxed?
how does it feel if somebody is just pushing your frontside while your standing in siu lim tau stance-can you sink? and how does it feel if the pressure gets harder?

is anybody out there training this-the wing chun way?

[KPM]

i dont know if i really mean the kwa movement this is not found in wing chun-

---Sure it is! At least in some Wing Chun. But its not the same as you see in the clip you posted. That was "long bridge", while Wing Chun is "short bridge." Its like the difference between cracking a 10 foot whip and cracking a 3 foot whip.

but if you watch this clip. they are trying to use their COG to get their straight forard power into the opponent without loosing balance.

---That is still done with use of the Kwa.

maybe i used the wrong word with COG, maybe dynamic rooting would be a better word for it.look at the big boy with the white shirt on he is trying to "walk through his opponent" but he is leaning forward a bit-which is wrong.

---He is not leaning forward. The hips lead and the upper body follows. That's not a "lean." But he is over-exaggerating things. Whether as part of the development or because he doesn't truly understand how to use his Kwa I couldn't say without seeing more.

in WC we usually use the waist for pivoting and with the pivot comes the power in the strike

---The waist is used for much more than pivoting. The waist comes into action even when you don't move the feet. This is using the Kwa to express power as well.

but i see myself often "standing up" in a way while pivoting and punching instead of sinking down.

---That's a common technical mistake. I think it is more likely to happen when you are pivoting on the heel rather than on the K1 point.

what does it feel like when you sink?

---If feels like your entire structure is collapsing down and forward to a point approximately 1 foot in front of you that is the tip of a triangle formed by the angling of your knees.

i mean do you feel any muscles in your body getting more tensed or more relaxed?

---From the knees up should feel relatively relaxed. The calves will feel tensed because they are the main stabilizers supporting the weight.

how does it feel if somebody is just pushing your frontside while your standing in siu lim tau stance-can you sink?

---You better! Or you're going over backwards! :)

and how does it feel if the pressure gets harder?

---You redirect the force downward by sinking forwards towards the point I mentioned. When the force exceeds what you can handle, that's when you pivot to redirect it to the side. This will not work well if you are standing in the "Wing Chun Slouch", or if you have your weight centered on the heels rather than on the K1 point.

is anybody out there training this-the wing chun way?

---Of course! I train this way. Robert Chu's students train this way. Check out www.alanorr.com Look at some of the articles he has posted.

[KPM]

Hey Kenton!

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing.

---There are several factors in the walking gait cycle that smooth out the movement of the COG when in motion. Its interesting how these are used or not used when doing specific martial arts footwork.

Back on topic, while the WC forms train wonderfully where to put your COG (SNT=Sitting, CK=Shifting/Moving, BJ=Bending), I personally think that by trying to hit a heavy bag, structure and COG is rocked and is then made to adjust. This, plus trying to hit a moving target (missing) messes with that COG.
So, for me, forms, heavy bag hitting, and missing all fix and stress the COG.

---I agree! You have to put your structure under some stress to make sure it won't break down. Heavy bag hitting is part of that. So is heavy bag or wooden dummy "pressing." So is "pressing" an opponent during Chi Sao as Norrin showed in that clip. An exercise I like to do that I picked up from Alan Orr is playing "medicine ball catch." You and your partner stand opposite each other in the YGKYM stance. Using the Kwa, you launch the medicine ball to your partner using both hands like passing a basketball. You keep the elbows in and try to "arc" the ball as little as possible. You have to really use the Kwa to make it work. You can't do it with just the arms, and no step or pivot is allowed. The guy catching has to receive the ball with both hands and absorb the force downwards and not backwards. If his stance isn't good, he's going over backwards!

I hope to meet you one day, Keith. I think we'd have a lot to gab about!

---Sure thing! It would be a good time! :)

[couch]

An exercise I like to do that I picked up from Alan Orr is playing "medicine ball catch." You and your partner stand opposite each other in the YGKYM stance. Using the Kwa, you launch the medicine ball to your partner using both hands like passing a basketball. You keep the elbows in and try to "arc" the ball as little as possible. You have to really use the Kwa to make it work. You can't do it with just the arms, and no step or pivot is allowed. The guy catching has to receive the ball with both hands and absorb the force downwards and not backwards. If his stance isn't good, he's going over backwards!



I'm going to try this. What size ball do you use (weight)?

Although Chum Kiu is mostly translated as Seeking Bridge, I know that (because of limited Mandarin knowledge) that words can mean several things. I always explain it as Seeking AND Sinking Bridge.

I have a close friend who did Bak Mei kung-fu. They definitely have a "dragon back" or hunch and expel air to gain Ging or "springy/relaxed energy" when striking with a phoenix eye punch, etc. Where I see the similarity is in the dummy form with the Po Pai (holding the sign). But with WC, we don't want to telegraph as much or lose that structure, so bending is out of the question. This is why, I believe, the sink is an important factor when striking or kicking. While maybe the terminology of "sinking" is unique to MA, I don't think this has any real difference than my boxing coach telling me to "sit down" on my punches.

Best,
Kenton

P.S. I'm a K1'er as well!

[KPM]

I'm going to try this. What size ball do you use (weight)?

---15 lbs. If you can throw it with your arms you're too close. If you have to arc it up into the air you're too far apart.

Although Chum Kiu is mostly translated as Seeking Bridge, I know that (because of limited Mandarin knowledge) that words can mean several things. I always explain it as Seeking AND Sinking Bridge.

---Yep! Me too! :)

I have a close friend who did Bak Mei kung-fu. They definitely have a "dragon back" or hunch and expel air to gain Ging or "springy/relaxed energy" when striking with a phoenix eye punch, etc.

---You see Wing Chun guys do that too. Maybe some inappropriate cross-fertilization? Did you ever see the commercial video that Wong Shun Leung made decades ago called "The Science of In-fighting"? There was a guy on the video, not WSL himself, who stood in the "Wing Chun slouch" with his hips forward and his shoulders back and with his torso rounded or "hunched." I always wondered about that, because one would assume he was one of WSL's senior students if he was featured in the video.

But with WC, we don't want to telegraph as much or lose that structure, so bending is out of the question. This is why, I believe, the sink is an important factor when striking or kicking. While maybe the terminology of "sinking" is unique to MA, I don't think this has any real difference than my boxing coach telling me to "sit down" on my punches.

---I agree. Wing Chun should be looked at as being no different than any other athletic activity. A tennis player bends his/her knees and "sinks" when going for the ball, and has a squared off ready position. The same is true of a football lineman. Boxers definitely learn to sink. And NONE of these athletes spend any appreciable time with the majority of their weight back on their heels!


P.S. I'm a K1'er as well!

---:D Check out my webpage. I have a blog about the K1 pivot. IMHO it is the most sound way to move from a biomechanical standpoint.

[KPM]

---You see Wing Chun guys do that too. Maybe some inappropriate cross-fertilization? Did you ever see the commercial video that Wong Shun Leung made decades ago called "The Science of In-fighting"? There was a guy on the video, not WSL himself, who stood in the "Wing Chun slouch" with his hips forward and his shoulders back and with his torso rounded or "hunched." I always wondered about that, because one would assume he was one of WSL's senior students if he was featured in the video.

.

I just put up another blog on my website about the "Wing Chun Slouch." Check it out in the "IMHO" section.

[norrin]

are there any vids on youtube where i can see what exactly you mean by short bridge kwa. i dont think that in the vids of alan is that kind of COG or rooting that i mean. look at this man from germany do you think he has that COG or rooting-the way you do it? or his "kwa-usage"different like the one of the wong shun leung student you mentioned before?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM
greetings norrin

ps. thanks for your answers

[Sifu MASS]

Hi Guys,

Here is a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsgRXduHjYY) of Samuel Kwok doing chi sao with Lee Bower. Mr Bower is one of the strongest men in Europe. He has placed in the top 5 in many strong man contest. Master Kwok demonstrates how to control and neutralize the opponents strength. This he does by having a very good root, and an uncany understanding of how to control the opponents energy.

-Tony

[KPM]

Hi Norrin!

i dont think that in the vids of alan is that kind of COG or rooting that i mean.

---Maybe not.

look at this man from germany do you think he has that COG or rooting-the way you do it? or his "kwa-usage"different like the one of the wong shun leung student you mentioned before?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg

---I would say...yes! Phillip Bayer is very good. If you watch the footage where he is "pressing" his opponent during Chi Sao you can see him using his waist. As far as the guy in the WSL videotape....I was commenting on his Wing Chun slouch, not his use of the Kwa.


or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM

---Just from this video clip...I would say no. During Chi Sao he is using arms and good stepping, but he never seems to press from the hips. Which is interesting since both are WSL students!

[drleungjohn]

I just found this thread-nice work guys-you are doing fine w/o me and my 25 cents

[Hendrik]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

the true kungfu of Centering and dynamic rooting has to be cultivate after one attain the walking sleep state.

in general, what is present as COG power today has never left the domain of using force against force which is mention in the classical chinese internal art script.

btw in advance chinese internal art, the real balance and rooting is the balance and rooting of consciousness. and that mean, one needs to be able to quiet one's mind to get there. as it said -- comes accept....using silence to manage action. silence is the real cog. when the mind quiet the body become alive beyond imagination....





thus i have heard

[k gledhill]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

the COG should be like a pond , the opponents should be like a nor'easter , if it isnt make it so ;).... if its still make it splash while you deliver the quiet pond at all times ...

if you think of the cog as a cylindrical container inside your hips containing water , the chumkil drills should allow the spinning, stepping , sliding, facing to be done with maximal force without losing one drop during the fight . A lot of time we are fighting the cog throught the levers [arms/legs] presented . We attack the void created by those attempting to recover what we cant see...balance. If we adopt a constant attack we will take advantage of this simple thing as it happens....or we can po-pai the bucket over , why wait :D

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Norrin!

or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM

---Just from this video clip...I would say no. During Chi Sao he is using arms and good stepping, but he never seems to press from the hips. Which is interesting since both are WSL students!

When I chi saued with him WKL used the KWA to root (i.e. to absorb force) but not to press (i.e. to issue force). To press he used the arms but without any tension in his arms or shoulders - so in this method the kwa supports and stabalises the body but is not the prime mover. This difference is hard to put into words but very easy to show.

Both methods are good and both work if you want to uproot someone. I have started to work with the second method more recently after spending a while on the first.

[KPM]

When I chi saued with him WKL used the KWA to root (i.e. to absorb force) but not to press (i.e. to issue force). To press he used the arms but without any tension in his arms or shoulders - so in this method the kwa supports and stabalises the body but is not the prime mover. This difference is hard to put into words but very easy to show.

Both methods are good and both work if you want to uproot someone. I have started to work with the second method more recently after spending a while on the first.

Hi Nick!

That's a good way to put it.....stable Kwa to root and absorb, dynamic kwa to issue force.

[YungChun]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd
The COG or center of mass is aligned via the stances and mechanics in order to project that energy into the opponent's COG, generally, in order to disrupt and break his ability to do same. Like a high pressure water hose blowing them down (backward) or you could also absorb, redirect and draw them in forward.

The qwa in the conventional sense does seem to come out when using the biu ma stepping as opposed to the bik ma stepping.. The idea of short bridge qua is interesting, is there some reference to this in CMA in general?

[Grilo]

If you really want to find your own center of gravity, loose it first. Do everything in your power to fall over in every situation. I have trained a lot of non traditional martial arts, mostly Capoeira from Brazil. In their art center of gravity is key as about 50% of the art is on your hands or spinning. Wing Chun and other Kung fus' have similar training with the Plum Blossom Flowers. You do the movements on the plum blossoms to develop your COG. I suggest this or hand stands, cart wheels, frog stands, running on logs, and balancing, then falling. After finding your COG in non traditional methods apply it to Wing Chun with the advice in the rest of this thread. It is hard to talk about your COG if you have never been pushed over and dont know where it is. I agree with Kenton you need to hit something so that you know how your COG shifts in relation to the transfer of energy and the other movements of Wing Chun. Other things I have read suggest hitting a wall bag. If you do not have control of your stance or COG the force of your punch will be transfered back into you and you will fall over. Patience, Time, Practice and Repetition will all help you.

these are just my opinions on COG having had someone kick me while in a handstand makes you aware of your COG really quickly and how to transfer your COG after the hit into movements to counter attack.

[norrin]

for your comments.
do you think there is apossibility to train themuscles which are or could be moving the COG. do you think this guy has a good control over his COG
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMqzf2I8&feature=related
or is it truly a fake what he does. i think he is just using his body from his feet to his navel to transmit the power to his hands and when you push against him he is just changing the leg fom where he is taking the groundpath or what do you think.
i train this kind of powertransmitting--is it the right word-sorry for my english--:p
through pressing and pulling with my legs or/and waist against a unmovable target like a door or something but i am not sure if i am using the right muscles(internal instead of external-i mean am i just training my legs nad waist or the muscles which could make me able to move my COG without moving my body from one side to another or so. understand my question or :confused:???
greets bernd

[cjurakpt]

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing. This, again, backs up why L5-S1/S1-S2 joints are always the chief complaint for back pain. In my world, the Kidney energy governs the lower back, so I generally just treat Urinary Bladder 23 (Back Transporting Point of Kidney) @ L2.

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting here - that because the COG is located in front of S2 that people have more pain at L5/S1 & S1/S2 than other areas of the low back, or that they have the root of their dysfunction at L5/S1 & S1/S2 more so than in other areas when they complain of LBP?

first off, I wouldn't agree that the "chief complaint" for LBP is at LSJ or lower - sacroiliac pain is one common form of LBP, but I see just as many people c/o pain in mid/lower lumbar region (L3-5)

second, I would suggest that the "root" of much LBP has more to do with hip joint and pelvic floor restrictions than S2, although they do reflect up into that area often (to wit, the counterstrain technique for releasing S2 basically puts pelvic floor on slack); which certainly relates to ideas about usage of the kwa, specifically the degree of lymphatic congestion most people have at inguinal crease (due to lack of suppleness in the pelvis in general), leading to a congested hip joint and all the undesirable sequelae that follow; in fact, in your example, you mention that to deal with pain at L5 to S2 you treat L2 - which makes sense, because many people are hypomobile at L2, and tend to be hypermobile at LSJ (bearing in mind, the things that don't move are not the ones that hurt, it's the areas that move too much...)

however, fundamentally, I don't really see why the location of the COG at the level of S2 (and that is a very approximate location, because it's also anterior to it) has any direct impact per se on how, why or where specifically people get LBP, with the exception that when we were quadrupeds, our COG was much different, and being in quadruped removes a large number of biomechanical and physiological stresses that contribute to LBP...meaning that one could argue the very fact that we are bipeds is a precipitating factor for LB dysfunction...

[couch]

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting here - that because the COG is located in front of S2 that people have more pain at L5/S1 & S1/S2 than other areas of the low back, or that they have the root of their dysfunction at L5/S1 & S1/S2 more so than in other areas when they complain of LBP?

first off, I wouldn't agree that the "chief complaint" for LBP is at LSJ or lower - sacroiliac pain is one common form of LBP, but I see just as many people c/o pain in mid/lower lumbar region (L3-5)

second, I would suggest that the "root" of much LBP has more to do with hip joint and pelvic floor restrictions than S2, although they do reflect up into that area often (to wit, the counterstrain technique for releasing S2 basically puts pelvic floor on slack); which certainly relates to ideas about usage of the kwa, specifically the degree of lymphatic congestion most people have at inguinal crease (due to lack of suppleness in the pelvis in general), leading to a congested hip joint and all the undesirable sequelae that follow; in fact, in your example, you mention that to deal with pain at L5 to S2 you treat L2 - which makes sense, because many people are hypomobile at L2, and tend to be hypermobile at LSJ (bearing in mind, the things that don't move are not the ones that hurt, it's the areas that move too much...)

however, fundamentally, I don't really see why the location of the COG at the level of S2 (and that is a very approximate location, because it's also anterior to it) has any direct impact per se on how, why or where specifically people get LBP, with the exception that when we were quadrupeds, our COG was much different, and being in quadruped removes a large number of biomechanical and physiological stresses that contribute to LBP...meaning that one could argue the very fact that we are bipeds is a precipitating factor for LB dysfunction...

Well...

To an Oriental medicine man such as myself (or acupunk for short), it's just a Kidney Qi/Yin/Yang deficiency anyways. ShenShu all the way (UB23 located 1.5 anatomical inches from L2).

:cool:

PS What's your background?

[cjurakpt]

Well...

To an Oriental medicine man such as myself (or acupunk for short), it's just a Kidney Qi/Yin/Yang deficiency anyways. ShenShu all the way (UB23 located 1.5 anatomical inches from L2).
of course, one can work successfully from whatever paradigm in which one operates, but the bottom line is that there are "concrete" structural interrelationships in the body that exist and that influence each other regardless of the modality in question: for example, if pelvic floor is living in chronic excess tension on one side (for any number of reasons: direct trauma, organ prolapse, repetitive strain injury due to "poor" postural mechanics) it will exert an asymmetrical pull on the sacrum, leading to further biomechanical / physiological imbalances locally and globally; an orthopedic PT might go right to pelvic, and look to directly release trigger points in the pelvic floor musculature; TCM on the other hand, without looking at pelvic floor directly, will recognize a particular set of signs / symptoms and characterize it as a certain type of pattern, and then treat according to its own internally consistent paradigm by needling certain areas that will effect in some way what is going on at pelvic floor and rebalance the system, leading to to resolution, all the while not necessarily being concerned with the specifics of the biomechanics; in both cases, the actual change that would occur at pelvic floor is the same: decreased aberrant muscle tone; point is, you can treat something from a variety of different perspectives, but what actually happens / changes in the body to resolve a certain issue will be the same; as such, whereas you needle L2 because it fits into TCM 's paradigm in context of Kidney deficiency, an orthopedic PT might treat it manually because it's the least mobile / symmetrical segment: but in both cases the structural change are the same: decrease aberrant muscle tone locally, increase blood supply, more mobility, etc., and with all the benefits of this change moving through the system (of course, TCM will be infinitely more adept at systematically tracking those changes as they ripple through into other body systems, whereas an ortho PT would begin and end with the local structure, without giving much attention to the fact that someone's TCM Kidney related functions would improve as well)


PS What's your background?
PT by license, mostly osteopathic approach for manual / qigong for movement

still doesn't answer my question re: your statement about COG...

[Liddel]

From what ive read your center of gravity and the motors that drive it are forged in the whom.

Earths gravity makes you develope your sence for up and down etc.

Tests on rats in orbit have proved that had your mother spent most of her pregnancy in space and returned to earth to give birth your brain wouldnt be able to tell the difference between up and down.

Every person able to walk has some control over COG right ?
for the specific use of staying upright and walking. So IMO -

In a fighting / Kung Fu context, training in a system teaches you to apply your awareness and use of balance/COG for a specific use.

For my VT its a very important contributing factor for putting the theory of VT center line concept into practice/application.


How do i find and train my COG ?

IMO the awareness is taught in SLT CK and BJ. And the application is taught in chi sao all the way to sparring / fighting through actual use of the VT tool box.

The old saying - No horse no kung fu - might as well be - No COG no kung fu IMHO. Its something thats inherent in the training and not something i isolate to improve on...its always partnered in training with actions of VT for a specific use in fighting.

Thats my rant, short and as sweet as i can make it :p

DREW

[cjurakpt]

From what ive read your center of gravity and the motors that drive it are forged in the whom.

Earths gravity makes you develope your sence for up and down etc.

Tests on rats in orbit have proved that had your mother spent most of her pregnancy in space and returned to earth to give birth your brain wouldnt be able to tell the difference between up and down.

sort of; while the apparatus that contributes to this awareness is certainly developed, functional usage of it is developed during post partum development, especially during the first few years of life; otherwise, you would expect see large disparities in gravitational awareness between babies who were born "normally" (head down) and those who were breech at term (head up), and there is no difference in the presence of active functional head righting reflexes (basically the innate sense to keep your eyes level with the horizon line) between these two situations; but also, righting reflexes are just the start in terms of gravitational orientation: it is a on-going process that involves numerous other factors that come into play as one developes over the first several years of life;

basically, in the healthy individual, there are 3 main systems that maintain our COG w/in our base of support (BOS); in order of speed of response, the 1st is the proprioceptive system, which is the muscle's internal sense of their position in space and rate of change of that position; 2nd is the visual system which is slightly slower, but is fast enough to act as a relaible source, especially when proprioceptive sense is under utilized (which it is in most people - to wit, most people are ok standing on one foot or an unstable surface with their eyes open, but cannot at all with eyes closed); the 3rd is you inner ear / vestibular system, which is actually much slower than the first two, and has more to do with reflexive head-righting responses and adaptation to changes over a longer period of time (e.g. - being on dry land versus on a boat, hence the delay in getting one's sea legs)

on a side note, there are certainly ramifications when someone's vestibular system doesn't work well, even if the proprioceptive system and visual system are fine, resulting in serious balance disorders; furthermore, you can have a situation where all three are not working well, leading to a lot of the gross motor developmental delays we see going on with kids these days

why this is important for MA, especially in trapping range, is that typically it is the fastest sense, proprioception, that is trained, meaning that the way one responds to disruption of one's COG can be trained to be faster and more accurate because this system can become more aware if trained specifically (hence the use of the drill of trapping blindfolded, because it focuses all awareness on body sense, as opposed to the slightly out of sync combination of that and vision, which is always a tiny bit behind); but at the same time this can be used against someone by sending "decoy" messages, in terms of giving their proprioceptive system incorrect information as to where the force is coming from and the direction it is going (this is a big piece for push hands as well);

[drleungjohn]

Very Nicely said-especially the last paragraph!

[Liddel]

sort of; while the apparatus that contributes to this awareness is certainly developed, functional usage of it is developed during post partum development, especially during the first few years of life

Oh i agree, and that makes obvious sence to me.

I find the whole thing quite interesting and the context in which i was learning about it was related to man having to travel large distances in space. i.e trip to mars etc.

I saw a test in which baby mice were dropped upsidedown into a container of water, most earth born mice as they sunk orientated thier bodies, hitting the bottom of the container feet down. The Mice who's mothers had been in space for the majority of thier preganacy never turned in the water, hitting the bottom with thier backs.

It was a very interesting Doco :)
And your post cjurakpt was a mind opener for me too, nice.

What do you think about my POV of it in terms of training. Do we really train COG in isolation ?

Ive done drills where you stand very straight, someone pushes you really hard and you fall into your stance.....which i guess could be considered to be balance and COG/COM type training :rolleyes:

Thats about as isolated as i think i get off the top of my head......

DREW

[cjurakpt]

What do you think about my POV of it in terms of training. Do we really train COG in isolation ?
no, I agree with you, you can't "isolate" it, that makes no sense really; because while the COG may be one theoretical spot (that is shifting around anyway as we move), what you are really training is balance reactions, mostly from a proprioceptive perspective; balance reactions take place in 3 main ways: ankle strategy, hip strategy and stepping strategy; an ankle strategy involves recruiting the musculature at the ankle to correct for small perturbations in the COG when standing with a normal base of support (BOS), such in normal standing / walking; as such, this is a very energy efficient strategy, and also very time efficient, because the response is almost immediate and also less chance of overcorrection; however, if the COG is moving out of the BOS at too great a velocity or has already moved too far before the ankle musculature can work, then the lever arm for these muscles becomes too long and you resort to #2, hip strategy - which is what you see when people slide on ice and start leaning their torso one way or another to counterbalance what the hips are doing; this is of course more energy consumptive, less precise, more prone to overcorrection and hardly desirable in normal activity or MA; however, if you are already starting from a wide stance, you are actually using this to resist COG displacement; finally, #3 is to take a step when you can't use a hip strategy, which is fine if it's a controlled step, but if not can lead to a nice fall, of course; in MA, i think a lot of what we do is to try to get people to do #2 beyond the parameters of their establish stance, or #3, but taking advantage of them while they are in the midst of it and tripping / throwing them

BTW, this is all predicated on not using your arms / hands to grab onto something, which, even if you do with one finger, completely changes the entire muscle firing sequence when your COG is disturbed, from feet up to hands down, so if you are holding onto an opponent it becomes a combination of strategies

as far as training this, i think that again, you don't "train" COG in isolation - you train the postural system to respond to COG displacement more efficiently and consistently; so you could train a stepping strategy as you describe in terms of being in regular standing, getting pushed and landing in a stance, which is fine, but you would want to increase the degree of "interference" at some point, so trying that same drill while the person keeps coming, or holds you, or tries to sweep you while you have one foot in the air, that sort of thing, which is really just a step away from actual sparring anyway...

or you could train on floors slicked with oil while you avoid swinging sandbags (wait, I think I've seen that somewhere before...)

[cjurakpt]

I saw a test in which baby mice were dropped upsidedown into a container of water, most earth born mice as they sunk orientated thier bodies, hitting the bottom of the container feet down. The Mice who's mothers had been in space for the majority of thier preganacy never turned in the water, hitting the bottom with thier backs.

ok, so that is demonstrating a lack of head / body righting reactions, which is reflexivly mediated at least in part by the vestibular system (you might have seen the same thing if they just dropped the mic in the air as well - the water gives the mice more time to respond actually); the implication here is that regardless of in utero fetal position (regular or breech), the vestibular system develops and organizes appropriately as long as it has some sort of gravitational reference, as opposed to the mice where they had no reference point at all...interesting...

[cjurakpt]

ok, reading what some others have written, a few ideas re: absorption and re-issuing of power: in a general sense, I think it has to do with efficient transmission of forces (mostly ground reaction force - GRF) through the body structure, in terms of both relatively passive transfer via the connective tissue system (CTS) and balanced coordination via the neuromuscular system (NMS);

to address the issues of muscle first: if you don't fire muscles you can't move, stand up, do anything; so i disagree when people say that there was no muscle fore, muscle tension, etc. involved in a movement; what happens is that first, the muscle function is internally integrated - in other words, the firing patterns used by a given individual are so smooth and coordinated and not in conflict in terms of their agonist / antagonist force couples (e.g. - you don't simultaneously fire your biceps and triceps) that it seems like they aren't doing anything with muscular force; second, those firing patterns are in sync with the breathing apparatus (also muscular), and also ride along at the same time with the external forces traveling via the CTS;
as far as the CTS, it is an elastic matrix which compresses discontinuously and elongates continuously; in other words, when force comes into the CTS, acts like millions of tiny springs all oriented in different directions to absorb / store / dissipate forces without damage to the tissues; when it is stretched / or when it recoils back out, it sends the forces continuously through the matrix, meaning that the stored up discontinuous energy can exit along the same path - hence, IMHO, the feeling during push hands / chi sao that someone "dissolved" your attack / push, and then all of a sudden, out of "nowhere" they dumped it back onto you - the inherent nature of the CTS supports this sort of phenomenon, so when you learn how to harness it via the NMS acting in concert with it, you are taking advantage of the intrinsic physiology;

now, one can do this with both an opponent's force, bt also independently - so if you are standing alone, you can "kick start" this by using a deep breathe as an ignition: the respiratory diaphragm descends during inhalation, which "pushes" down the lower torso and legs into the floor; this generates a small GRF, which you then "allow" to thrust upwards, and if it's "correct", you get that feeling like a) you've just had your body filled up with something at the CTS level, and also you feel like the cranium is "floating" on top of the spine (my personal experience at least);

this, i believe is what the "peng" feeling in taiji is all about, specifically, the expressive aspect of this; conversely, I think that "sung" is the absorption aspect, but the two operate interdependently (certainly this principle applies to all arts, BTW, I'm just using taiji terms); the use of the kwa is certainly important here, because it's the place where the rootedness of the legs meets the lightness of the torso - a balance zone of sorts, and which is why if you don't have good awareness / suppleness in this zone, you are at a relative disadvantage to someone who does; so what someone said earlier about a stable kwa to absorb and a mobile one to issue power, yes, that's for sure, although within the stability there is movement and within the mobility there is stability...

to train this, one can work independently to increase innate awareness, or with a partner to increase variability; I don't think one has to necessarily follow the other, an in fact each can act a a reference to the other, giving more detailed feedback as one progresses (in other words, one learns about others by watching oneself, and learns about oneself via the reactions of others)

[Hendrik]

A different view,


http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g


enjoy



Perhaps in the ancient China, COG is not view as what it was thought today... or as in the internal classical said point K1 is not the root, waist is not a master. ... one hands dividing becomes thousand hand...

[Liddel]

this is all predicated on not using your arms / hands to grab onto something, which, even if you do with one finger, completely changes the entire muscle firing sequence when your COG is disturbed, from feet up to hands down, so if you are holding onto an opponent it becomes a combination of strategies.

Very true. When using formal VT kicking i was taught to use the opponents body to create space and to borrow balance for any of the eight kicks.
Using a bridge was a pre requisite for the kicks.

Without either creating space or disrupting the opponents balance kicks, were not meant to be used or were considered low percentage.

I say formal because ive adapted my own personal way for practical application of my kicks, not always relying on contact...

Each approach uses balance and my COG differently.

Thanks for the info Chris (is it?). Highly informative ;)

DREW

[KPM]

Hi Bernd!

do you think there is apossibility to train themuscles which are or could be moving the COG. do you think this guy has a good control over his COG
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMqzf2I8&feature=related

----Of course it is possible to train the muscles that move the center of gravity. You do that every day just by standing upright and moving around! :) As far as the video clip....his balance isn't being challenged, so its hard to say what kind of control he has.

or is it truly a fake what he does.

---I am skeptical of all such videos. Have you noticed that almost without exception they are demonstrating on one of their own students and not a volunteer from the audience? I'm not saying its a total sham. But I do think there is a high level of "suggestibility" involved on the part of the receiver.

i think he is just using his body from his feet to his navel to transmit the power to his hands and when you push against him he is just changing the leg fom where he is taking the groundpath or what do you think.

---That's how it supposed to work. As I said before...like snapping a whip. Whether or not that's what he is actually doing is hard to tell.

i train this kind of powertransmitting--is it the right word-sorry for my english--:p
through pressing and pulling with my legs or/and waist against a unmovable target like a door or something

---Sure. Try training it against a heavy bag or a wooden dummy. You should be able to stand in YGKYM in front of the dummy with both palms flat against the trunk, and then "hit" the dummy with your whole body without lifting your palms from the trunk. Do the same on the heavy bag....it shouldn't swing in an arc...rather it should "jump" upwards and back at about a 45 degree angle.

but i am not sure if i am using the right muscles(internal instead of external-i mean am i just training my legs nad waist or the muscles which could make me able to move my COG without moving my body from one side to another or so. understand my question or :confused:???

---You're thinking too much! :) Muscles and biomechanics are just that....no "internal" vs. "external." Try to move like I've described earlier in the thread. Try the medicine ball drill, and the "zero inch" strikes on the dummy and/or heavy bag. You'll figure it out!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Internal MA does not maintain a COG the way its being discussed. Why? The body is constantly in motion. When the body settles it is because the pressure causes the body to suction cup/spring but it should be in equilibrium all the time. The insides of an Internal practitioner is not the same as someone who does not condition the way they do. The end result is a totally different body. People think the body is either locked or floating. Yes and No. The floating has nothign to do with not pre-locking the body. It comes from the conditioning and the dynamics in movement. Example: KWA! Everyone is talking about the Kwa but the Kwa cannot Issue or Recieve shock force unless the Pelvic Griddle has been disolved. So, similar to a woman that during pregnancy this naturally opens, so does the training of Chinese boxing. This will be done thru the entire body. Little by little and piece by piece. Creating the internal natural "Orbiting" kung fu. So, does your training Close Off your body or Open you up? So, there is the so-called superficial floating concept that is often confused with the real floating that requires conditioning. You have heard it many times and by many names: Snake Body, Simming on Dry Land, Floating, Orbiting, Equilibrium etc... All the same end result but all follow a different process to get their and in use!

Hope this helps point of the difference between Locked Body, External Whip designer imposter & Internal method. The outside may look similar but the inside is different. Just some thoughts!


Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:eek:

[norrin]

thanks everybody for your comments->very helpful:)

Hello,


Internal MA does not maintain a COG the way its being discussed. Why? The body is constantly in motion. When the body settles it is because the pressure causes the body to suction cup/spring but it should be in equilibrium all the time. The insides of an Internal practitioner is not the same as someone who does not condition the way they do. The end result is a totally different body. People think the body is either locked or floating. Yes and No. The floating has nothign to do with not pre-locking the body. It comes from the conditioning and the dynamics in movement. Example: KWA! Everyone is talking about the Kwa but the Kwa cannot Issue or Recieve shock force unless the Pelvic Griddle has been disolved. So, similar to a woman that during pregnancy this naturally opens, so does the training of Chinese boxing. This will be done thru the entire body. Little by little and piece by piece. Creating the internal natural "Orbiting" kung fu. So, does your training Close Off your body or Open you up? So, there is the so-called superficial floating concept that is often confused with the real floating that requires conditioning. You have heard it many times and by many names: Snake Body, Simming on Dry Land, Floating, Orbiting, Equilibrium etc... All the same end result but all follow a different process to get their and in use!

Hope this helps point of the difference between Locked Body, External Whip designer imposter & Internal method. The outside may look similar but the inside is different. Just some thoughts!


Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:eek:

so what would you do to get the internal factor into wc?
imean the wc-moves are different then the taichi moves, so how can we zhan zuang or this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ8Cs0NINH8
what is our way to get the internalfactor in??? if not the discussed elements?:confused:
i mean if we look at mike sigman for example he is using some of the drills like pushing or hitting a sandbag the way here being discussed.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


so what would you do to get the internal factor into wc?

They are already built into the art. We just need to look at it in a different way and spend a few minutes every day working the stuff. Think about Som Bai Fut. If someone was doing Zhan Zhuang for 20 minutes a day with the internal conditioning going on then they could easily replace zhan zhuang and use SBF right? Altho WC snake is a bit different, Zhan Zhuang is great becaue its so simple and so is Som Bai Fut. You can Sink the Qi and condition the body with Zhan Zhuang or any other "soft" method and end up with something similar but keep in mind all arts have their signatures. JR

imean the wc-moves are different then the taichi moves, so how can we zhan zuang or this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ8Cs0NINH8

His lower back was not active. That is a signature to look for! JR

what is our way to get the internalfactor in??? if not the discussed elements?

First you need to find someone who has gone thru the process and then have them set you up a simple daily training program.Then, dont think to much about it and let the fun stuff happen gradually. Once you start cultivating this method you will see how its already built in. I have seen the Floating method attempted in some WC arts. The problem is I dont see any of the internal exercise going on. This is why some use a large frame and some use a small. You need to internal conditioning to make the YJKYM work otherwsie you will end up having to make the WC body larger or bigger to get the job done. JR

i mean if we look at mike sigman for example he is using some of the drills like pushing or hitting a sandbag the way here being discussed.

There are only so many ways to issue force. Pressing or Nailing the tool into the target is one way. AKA Hammer Nail! There is also the Drop to Shock method. Its exactly the opposite of hammer nail as you dont press in. There are plenty of ways to power your tools but when it comes to your COG, you need to think about what is going on inside may not be what we think. Thats why, the COG is always active and not frozen in time. JR

Gotta run!

Back to LURK mode :)

[Hendrik]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6QiZQYPtI7c&feature=related




.....look out on a summer's day
with eyes that know the
darkness in my soul.
Shadows on the hills
sketch the trees and the daffodils

catch the breeze and the winter chills

in colors on the snowy linen land.
And now I understand what you tried to say to me

how you suffered for your sanity
how you tried to set them free.
They would not listen
they did not know how

perhaps they'll listen now..........



a good song.
Some have been sing it for decades... most dont hear it because majority didnt use thier ear instead using thier head.

[KPM]

Hope this helps point of the difference between Locked Body, External Whip designer imposter & Internal method. The outside may look similar but the inside is different. Just some thoughts!


Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:eek:

"External Whip designer imposter"? I never presented it as anything other than one way to look at the biomechanics of using the Kwa. So its not an "imposter" of anything. If you can explain how the "internal" method is different from a biomechanical perspective I'd love to hear it! Thanks!

[Jim Roselando]

KPM wrote:

"External Whip designer imposter"? I never presented it as anything other than one way to look at the biomechanics of using the Kwa. So its not an "imposter" of anything. If you can explain how the "internal" method is different from a biomechanical perspective I'd love to hear it! Thanks!


I explained the Internal Body and why this is the difference between champagne and champagne bottle with beer inside. Using one simple example such as Pelvic griddle relationship to Kwa. Is the griddle disolved? Is the belt line open? Has the sacrum open? etc etc etc.. Just these three things alone make a world of difference with issuing and recieving force and it is an example of the difference between the authentic version and imposter IMO. I will leave it up to you to discuss all the Bio stuff. ;)

Back to lurk!

Thanks

[Hendrik]

If you can explain how the "internal" method is different from a biomechanical perspective I'd love to hear it! Thanks!




for simply just one split of second, a split of a second, if you lost your consciousness or shen lost or freeze your biomechanical or all everything become nothing. ZERO.


Thus, all these so called internal art mimic-ing.. and biomechanical and all fancy scientific explanaition doesnt work under pressure for most.

Because they have no idea of chinese internal training core at the consciousness. NOT physical not that KWA or K1.... or place the elbow in the center line. ...


all these COG stuffs and biomechanical......etc to explain the chinese internal art sound great in class room or inside one's head; whatever and however the way one speculate on it. same with the inch punch....etc. the chinese internal art doesnt work this way.

and in the real life? all these scientific explainaition without the wholistic JIng, Qi, Shen core is only 0.0001% is applicable.

Just dont kidding ourself. If these stuffs work then Taiji practitioners dominate the world. in contradiction, how come in general Taiji practitioners cannot deriver?


just some thoughts

[KPM]

I explained the Internal Body and why this is the difference between champagne and champagne bottle with beer inside. Using one simple example such as Pelvic griddle relationship to Kwa. Is the griddle disolved? Is the belt line open? Has the sacrum open? etc etc etc.. Just these three things alone make a world of difference with issuing and recieving force and it is an example of the difference between the authentic version and imposter IMO. I will leave it up to you to discuss all the Bio stuff. ;)

Back to lurk!

Thanks


Hey Jim!

Sorry, but you didn't explain anything. What does it mean for the pelvic girdle to be "dissolved"? What does it mean for the belt line to be "open"? What does it mean for the sacrum to be "open"? How can the typical reader here on KFO make practical use of what you said?

[KPM]

Thus, all these so called internal art mimic-ing.. and biomechanical and all fancy scientific explanaition doesnt work under pressure for most.

----First...what I described was not intended to "mimic" internal arts. As I told Jim, it wasn't intended as an "imposter." It was simply a basic biomechanical explanation of something that works for me and was a way to see what was going on in some of the videos posted. Secondly...it DOES work. I can use it, Phillip Bayer was using it in the video, I've seen Alan Orr use it in his videos, etc. Now I'm not talking about making people fly through the air from a simple touch. I'm talking about using the waist to augment power output through the arms.

Because they have no idea of chinese internal training core at the consciousness. NOT physical not that KWA or K1.... or place the elbow in the center line. ...

---So...its not physical then? No muscles? No joints? No nerves? None of those count?


all these COG stuffs and biomechanical......etc to explain the chinese internal art sound great in class room or inside one's head; whatever and however the way one speculate on it. same with the inch punch....etc. the chinese internal art doesnt work this way.

---Maybe not. But I wasn't talking about Chinese Internal Art. I was talking about Wing Chun.


Just dont kidding ourself. If these stuffs work then Taiji practitioners dominate the world. in contradiction, how come in general Taiji practitioners cannot deriver?

---What? :confused: Now it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. If the stuff YOU are talking about works, then why don't we see the Taiji practitioners dominating the world????? Why don't the people that demo such stuff on video show it working against a resisting opponent rather than just their own willing and cooperative students????

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Jim!

Sorry, but you didn't explain anything. What does it mean for the pelvic girdle to be "dissolved"? What does it mean for the belt line to be "open"? What does it mean for the sacrum to be "open"? How can the typical reader here on KFO make practical use of what you said?

*

I believe I made the differences perfectly clear of the differences??? Maybe its hard to understand this as its not a Western concept. Your the Doctor tho. Cant you think of a couple of simple ideas of some practical use? Like less tension in the body, and greater range of soft, which = more range of strength & feeling to play with where as if your not opening the body up you are closing it off and that tends to restrict strength/feeling etc... With this mid section Kwa you also can receive and discharge a different type of force with a much smaller yjkym etc. etc.

I have to run. No time for small talk.

Back to lurking.

[Hendrik]

Thus, all these so called internal art mimic-ing.. and biomechanical and all fancy scientific explanaition doesnt work under pressure for most.

----First...what I described was not intended to "mimic" internal arts. As I told Jim, it wasn't intended as an "imposter." It was simply a basic biomechanical explanation of something that works for me and was a way to see what was going on in some of the videos posted. Secondly...it DOES work. I can use it, Phillip Bayer was using it in the video, I've seen Alan Orr use it in his videos, etc. Now I'm not talking about making people fly through the air from a simple touch. I'm talking about using the waist to augment power output through the arms.

Because they have no idea of chinese internal training core at the consciousness. NOT physical not that KWA or K1.... or place the elbow in the center line. ...

---So...its not physical then? No muscles? No joints? No nerves? None of those count?


all these COG stuffs and biomechanical......etc to explain the chinese internal art sound great in class room or inside one's head; whatever and however the way one speculate on it. same with the inch punch....etc. the chinese internal art doesnt work this way.

---Maybe not. But I wasn't talking about Chinese Internal Art. I was talking about Wing Chun.


Just dont kidding ourself. If these stuffs work then Taiji practitioners dominate the world. in contradiction, how come in general Taiji practitioners cannot deriver?

---What? :confused: Now it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. If the stuff YOU are talking about works, then why don't we see the Taiji practitioners dominating the world????? Why don't the people that demo such stuff on video show it working against a resisting opponent rather than just their own willing and cooperative students????



long story :(


seperate a human to be kidney, heart, lung.... legs....and study about different part individually is not going to know a human.


and

it is long hard way from black and white photo to Digital HDTV.

[Hendrik]

Hey Jim!

Sorry, but you didn't explain anything. What does it mean for the pelvic girdle to be "dissolved"? What does it mean for the belt line to be "open"? What does it mean for the sacrum to be "open"? How can the typical reader here on KFO make practical use of what you said?

*

I believe I made the differences perfectly clear of the differences??? Maybe its hard to understand this as its not a Western concept. Your the Doctor tho. Cant you think of a couple of simple ideas of some practical use? Like less tension in the body, and greater range of soft, which = more range of strength & feeling to play with where as if your not opening the body up you are closing it off and that tends to restrict strength/feeling etc... With this mid section Kwa you also can receive and discharge a different type of force with a much smaller yjkym etc. etc.

I have to run. No time for small talk.

Back to lurking.



How can one explain anything according to the others when the others doesnt have the terminology for it?

IE

Explain what is a cell phone to a person born and raise in the forest and have never expose totally to the high tech modern world?

This is not mean to be sacastic or insulting....etc. It is a fact we today have no clue about what happen in the pre 1850. we see world according to the western education we were raise. There is nothing wrong with western education.

The issue is we are creating problems due to unconciously thinking/speculating the world has to be derived according to the education which raise us. and that get us stuck.


Look at the history in general,
Concept of COG are Taiji Concept which was introduced to WCK in the early 50's to help explain things.( as for how effective is that, that depend case by case; but it sure doesnt fully cover the wholistic systemic view) and The concept of physics is introduce to Taiji in early 1900 in general.

Before that, as in the Taiji classic, it is orbiting, swing and resonance, energy flow, the eight medirians, the Yee lead the Qi, the Qi lead the physical....... Those are the terminology in China.

So, now if we take the COG in the western physics view, thinking it is the base of everything--- kwa.... waist...., well, what COG? read even the Taiji Classic. what is it there?

Now are we trying to us the Concept of COG as the ultimate? how can the result be good? we know, COG concept is a partial concept as the above. it is a tools to trying to explain things partiallly.


anyone want to speak about Kwa? ok, how deep your breathing sensation could go? genital area? heart area?...... how is your back conditioning? upper back, mid back, lower back? be real,


the clip shows above just show the whole body is scattering, no training in the back.... and so how far can these type of training lead one? how far can one goes when the back or the spine --- the link of the whole body is dead or rigid or un aware?

what kwa discussion? no alive spine is a dead corp, what use to discuss kwa? awake, dont be a dodo bird.


I might be sound insulting to some here. the fact is I am not trying to insult anyone. It is just a fact that we all got misleading to believe that partial is whole. and until we found out. we resist to believe that and keep thinking we are right and we know it all. that is the biggest issue.




Awake. Awake. what is the point to argue? using OUR way to forcefully understand what the chinese inventor of the art mean is just creating more problems and it never get solve.

Our generation has be in chaos and misleading. hopefully the next generation starts things right.

keep trying to use Newtonian physics view to explain Quantum physics is not only going no where but get people stuck in the long run. and that is exactly what happen here.



Best Regards

and back to the sleep mode.

[cjurakpt]

using OUR way to forcefully understand what the chinese inventor of the art mean is just creating more problems and it never get solve.
.
this is the fundamental problem underlying the perpetuation of ignorance surrounding the whole issue; it's this pervasive arrogance and looking down their collective noses on the part of so-called "internalists", who deride so-called "western" science as being fundamentally unable to encompass the totality of what Chinese "internal" arts encompass;

they fail to see that if you step back and really look at it, "internal" arts almost exclusively utilize descriptive metaphors to explain the various subjective processes experienced by practitioners, with vague terms like "opening" and "dissolving" abounding; now, in context, the use of these descriptors by the "founders" of these practices makes sense: without the technical apparatus available to directly observe the processes in question (e.g. - pelvic biomechanics at the level of connective tissue say, or the way in which the hypo-gastric plexus regulates the autonomic nervous system function of the abdominopelvic region to produce all kinds of interesting sensations and physiological events), they came up with culturally-dependent metaphors (the cauldron, blossoming lotus, coiling serpent, etc.) to create a framework by which the experiences in question could be alluded to; there was no rejection of "western" approach inherent in this either - it was simply what was available, end of story;

but what happens is that people who practice internal arts get all carried away by what they experience, and since they typically seem to fit a certain personality profile (iconoclastic, contrarian, anti-mainstream), they seize it as an opportunity to point out the great failing of "western" science to fit these experiences into its framework without destroying the essence of the art; in the certainty of their unassailable position, they totally miss the point, which is that contemporary anatomical / pyhsiological / biomechanical knowledge more then adequately describes all of these processes, but can do so in a way that maintains

the problem is that many "internalists" seek the extraordinary, the esoteric; to them, being able to talk about these things in a less cryptic manner spoils their illusion of extra-speciality; they get wrapped up in an elitist notion of the sacred and forget about the fact that what is the essence of true practice is that it is profoundly ordinary; and being as such, it ought to be able to described as such

of course, if "internal" practice can be described fully by the lingua franca, then what they do just ain't so special anymore, and one can't get away with tossing out terms like "qi" and "kwa" and appear to have some sort of secret, special knowledge that others don't; like talking about the "internal body" as if it were something "other" - total hogwash; what they are in essence saying is that "oh, yes, something really does change, but it's something that no amount of scientific testing will ever be able to detect"; well sorry, either something changes, or it doesn't; and if one aspect of the system changes, then all aspects change, and there would be some detectable evidence of that;

people need to stop creating golden ankle chains for themselves; in matters such as this, it is best to speak with clarity

[cjurakpt]

Sorry, but you didn't explain anything. What does it mean for the pelvic girdle to be "dissolved"? What does it mean for the belt line to be "open"? What does it mean for the sacrum to be "open"? How can the typical reader here on KFO make practical use of what you said?
exactly - these terms are vague and highly subjective; which is fine, as long as one admits that;




I believe I made the differences perfectly clear of the differences??? Maybe its hard to understand this as its not a Western concept.
the ultimate smokescreen cop-out;


Your the Doctor tho. Cant you think of a couple of simple ideas of some practical use? Like less tension in the body, and greater range of soft, which = more range of strength & feeling to play with where as if your not opening the body up you are closing it off and that tends to restrict strength/feeling etc... With this mid section Kwa you also can receive and discharge a different type of force with a much smaller yjkym etc. etc.

ok, now this is getting closer at least: talking about changes in resting muscle tension, that's a start; so, if we want to talk about the pelvic floor in particular, we can examine what happens when the pelvic floor musculature lives with asymmetrical tension, in terms of pulling on sacrum / coccyx; which can lead to asymmetry in the pelvis during gait and subsequent dysfunction in the hips, which can create more tension in inguinal crease inguinal crease; and we can also look at how then via decreased local lymphatic return as a result, you get increased local congestion and also how this might reflect back into the adominopelvic cavity, and impact hypogastric plexus (which can also be impacted by asymmetrical tension at sacral level as well) in terms of the effect on parasympathetic tone, creating more of an imbalance in autonomic function and relatively increasing sympathetic tone, resulting in increased resting tone and lower firing threshold of upper respiratory accessory musculature (SCM, scalenes, upper traps) and subsequent decreased function of respiratory diaphragm during inhalation phase (due to both thoracic restriction from irritated sympathetic chain and also dysfunction of diaphragm innervation from cervical segments C3-5 due to scalene hypertonus) and therefore less diaphragmatic descent leading to decreased pumping of abdominno pelvic viscera and more congestion back in the pelvis, etc. etc.; and of course, you can look at the reverse, in terms of how something like sitting / standing practice can impact this causal sequence in order to break it;

my point is that it is possible to describe interrelationships with "western" terms in a "holistic" manner, and it is possible to understand what happens during "internal" practice when the body gains increased capacity to achieve homeostasis; of course, if you don't have the knowledge to do so, then the standard response is that "western" concepts are inadequate; well, something may be inadequate, but it ain't the body of knowledge itself...

[cjurakpt]

The insides of an Internal practitioner is not the same as someone who does not condition the way they do. The end result is a totally different body.
this is the one I was looking for - this is just ridiculous: ok, if it's "totally" different", what do you mean by that? what specifically is "different"? BTW, I agree there is something "different", but unlike you I am happy to describe it in detail, and guess what, that makes it a lot less "mystical" sounding overall...again, it's this internal elitism that is just getting in the way of discussing things frankly;



People think the body is either locked or floating. Yes and No. The floating has nothign to do with not pre-locking the body. It comes from the conditioning and the dynamics in movement. Example: KWA! Everyone is talking about the Kwa but the Kwa cannot Issue or Recieve shock force unless the Pelvic Griddle has been disolved. So, similar to a woman that during pregnancy this naturally opens, so does the training of Chinese boxing. This will be done thru the entire body. Little by little and piece by piece. Creating the internal natural "Orbiting" kung fu. So, does your training Close Off your body or Open you up? So, there is the so-called superficial floating concept that is often confused with the real floating that requires conditioning. You have heard it many times and by many names: Snake Body, Simming on Dry Land, Floating, Orbiting, Equilibrium etc... All the same end result but all follow a different process to get their and in use!
more subjective metaphors for a range of processes that can be more than adequately described in a way that will make the practice much more accessible to people (and make people who talk like this much less special in the process); it serves only to create an artificial hierarchy which is really more about personal ego than anything else; e.g. "superficial" vs. "real" floating - hmmm, I'm guessing he's in the latter group, right? it would su(k for him if something that he took 10 years to figure out someone else got in one because they just have more natural ability, right? can't have that happen: so, you set up a situation where this is inherently impossible: no chance to get the "real" floating that quick, everyone has to go through the long version; I bet that if some wrestler shows up to his taiji class and pushes with him and tosses him off his line, the explanation would be that the guy is "only" using external power, and therefore didn't really throw him out, right? of course, this is why the sutra of Hui Neng bugs the hel! out of a lot of people, because it takes into account the possibility that natural talent can in fact be more powerful than years of hard work, LOL!

[Hendrik]

this is the fundamental problem underlying the perpetuation of ignorance surrounding the whole issue; it's this pervasive arrogance and looking down their collective noses on the part of so-called "internalists", who deride so-called "western" science as being fundamentally unable to encompass the totality of what Chinese "internal" arts encompass;

they fail to see that if you step back and really look at it, "internal" arts almost exclusively utilize descriptive metaphors to explain the various subjective processes experienced by practitioners, with vague terms like "opening" and "dissolving" abounding; now, in context, the use of these descriptors by the "founders" of these practices makes sense: without the technical apparatus available to directly observe the processes in question (e.g. - pelvic biomechanics at the level of connective tissue say, or the way in which the hypo-gastric plexus regulates the autonomic nervous system function of the abdominopelvic region to produce all kinds of interesting sensations and physiological events), they came up with culturally-dependent metaphors (the cauldron, blossoming lotus, coiling serpent, etc.) to create a framework by which the experiences in question could be alluded to; there was no rejection of "western" approach inherent in this either - it was simply what was available, end of story;

but what happens is that people who practice internal arts get all carried away by what they experience, and since they typically seem to fit a certain personality profile (iconoclastic, contrarian, anti-mainstream), they seize it as an opportunity to point out the great failing of "western" science to fit these experiences into its framework without destroying the essence of the art; in the certainty of their unassailable position, they totally miss the point, which is that contemporary anatomical / pyhsiological / biomechanical knowledge more then adequately describes all of these processes, but can do so in a way that maintains

the problem is that many "internalists" seek the extraordinary, the esoteric; to them, being able to talk about these things in a less cryptic manner spoils their illusion of extra-speciality; they get wrapped up in an elitist notion of the sacred and forget about the fact that what is the essence of true practice is that it is profoundly ordinary; and being as such, it ought to be able to described as such

of course, if "internal" practice can be described fully by the lingua franca, then what they do just ain't so special anymore, and one can't get away with tossing out terms like "qi" and "kwa" and appear to have some sort of secret, special knowledge that others don't; like talking about the "internal body" as if it were something "other" - total hogwash; what they are in essence saying is that "oh, yes, something really does change, but it's something that no amount of scientific testing will ever be able to detect"; well sorry, either something changes, or it doesn't; and if one aspect of the system changes, then all aspects change, and there would be some detectable evidence of that;

people need to stop creating golden ankle chains for themselves; in matters such as this, it is best to speak with clarity



Fair speculation.



The bottom line, does one know how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow?


if not one doesnt know internal and doesnt know the ancient Chinese martial arts with Nei Gong.

So, then all the speculation or trying to explain in the western way....etc doesnt means a thing.

not to mention,

even if one knows how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow and use that to lead the physical,
in the west, today, this is still a leading edge science research in universities on this subject. A few different model has been hypothesis but it is in an early state.

That is the reality.




So, are you at the point you know how to evoke your zhen Qi flow?

or are you in the point of evolve in the leading edge science research in the universities?


If you are in these two level, enlightent us here.



Peace

[unkokusai]

this is the fundamental problem underlying the perpetuation of ignorance surrounding the whole issue; it's this pervasive arrogance and looking down their collective noses on the part of so-called "internalists", who deride so-called "western" science as being fundamentally unable to encompass the totality of what Chinese "internal" arts encompass;

they fail to see that if you step back and really look at it, "internal" arts almost exclusively utilize descriptive metaphors to explain the various subjective processes experienced by practitioners, with vague terms like "opening" and "dissolving" abounding; now, in context, the use of these descriptors by the "founders" of these practices makes sense: without the technical apparatus available to directly observe the processes in question (e.g. - pelvic biomechanics at the level of connective tissue say, or the way in which the hypo-gastric plexus regulates the autonomic nervous system function of the abdominopelvic region to produce all kinds of interesting sensations and physiological events), they came up with culturally-dependent metaphors (the cauldron, blossoming lotus, coiling serpent, etc.) to create a framework by which the experiences in question could be alluded to; there was no rejection of "western" approach inherent in this either - it was simply what was available, end of story;

but what happens is that people who practice internal arts get all carried away by what they experience, and since they typically seem to fit a certain personality profile (iconoclastic, contrarian, anti-mainstream), they seize it as an opportunity to point out the great failing of "western" science to fit these experiences into its framework without destroying the essence of the art; in the certainty of their unassailable position, they totally miss the point, which is that contemporary anatomical / pyhsiological / biomechanical knowledge more then adequately describes all of these processes, but can do so in a way that maintains

the problem is that many "internalists" seek the extraordinary, the esoteric; to them, being able to talk about these things in a less cryptic manner spoils their illusion of extra-speciality; they get wrapped up in an elitist notion of the sacred and forget about the fact that what is the essence of true practice is that it is profoundly ordinary; and being as such, it ought to be able to described as such

of course, if "internal" practice can be described fully by the lingua franca, then what they do just ain't so special anymore, and one can't get away with tossing out terms like "qi" and "kwa" and appear to have some sort of secret, special knowledge that others don't; like talking about the "internal body" as if it were something "other" - total hogwash; what they are in essence saying is that "oh, yes, something really does change, but it's something that no amount of scientific testing will ever be able to detect"; well sorry, either something changes, or it doesn't; and if one aspect of the system changes, then all aspects change, and there would be some detectable evidence of that;

people need to stop creating golden ankle chains for themselves; in matters such as this, it is best to speak with clarity


That's a pretty good post!

[cjurakpt]

Fair speculation.
actually it's well-informed speculation


The bottom line, does one know how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow?
no ,it's not the "bottom line"; that's just a typical response of so-called "internalists" who want to get into some sort of esoteric pising contest about who has the higher level of "attainment"; interestingly, it always turns out that no matter what you say about this, it is always an indication of your lack thereof, according to the other person;


if not then all the speculation or trying to explain in the western way....etc doesnt means a thing.
again, subjective silliness: you are completely missing the point - my level of achievement doesn't validate or invalidate the methodology; although, think about it - it would seem odd for me to talk about what is "really going on" if I hadn't experienced it first through the "classical" methods - how would i know what is happening "inside" if i didn't? what I am doing is to take that subjective experience and explain it in context of the culturally relevant framework, instead of regurgitating vague terms that no one ultimately relates to directly


not to mention, even if one knows how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow and use that to lead the physical, it is still a leading edge science research in universities on this subject.
I don't even know what you mean by the bolded out statement - your English needs some work


That is the reality.
no, reality is things such as they are; which metaphors serve only to obscure


So, are you the point you know how to evoke your zhen Qi flow?
if I was or wasn't it doesn't matter; and i am not avoiding answering - it's just irrelevant to this topic - start another thread called "Describe your inner experience subjectively" and i'll be happy to post all day long on what I've "achieved", although that's probably boring - i mean who cares - unless you like drinking the dregs of someone else's meal; besides, the only way to know for sure would be if we had the opportunity to bask in each other's presence, right? I mean, the way to really ascertain someone's level is to push with them, or have them treat you; otherwise it's all talk; I mean, I could say "sure, I can evoke it" - no way to prove or disprove that, right? you need to get in touch directly...
anyway, stop trying to sideline the discussion - deal with my points on their own merits - refute them directly; be clear


or are you in the point of evolve in the leading edge science research in the universities?
again, your syntax is confusing; if you mean do I actively conduct institutionalized research, no I do not; doesn't mean I don't do my homework though...


If you are in these two level, enlightent us here.

again, you are trying to personalize this; I am going for the opposite: in other words, the relative attainment of a given ego-construct means nothing - I know what I have experienced / achieved, but so what? I can wax on and on about the dragon ascending in the field, where does that get us? nowhere; my entire point is that this stuff is not nearly as esoteric as people would like for it to be - it's really applied Ch'an is all, if you want to get traitional...unless of course you are a Taoist through and through - in that case, take you walking corpse and get out of here...;)

oh, BTW, I am happy to "prove" to you where I am "at", but that can only really be done face to face; are you near NY?


oh, one more point; even if I was able to circulate my "zhen qi" on command, so what? personally, to me, the point of cultivation is a bit more than ticking of some sort of esoteric checklist: if you can circulate you qi through the entire macroorbit and then go home and be an asZhole to your wife and kids, what's the point?

[cjurakpt]

That's a pretty good post!

oh, you're just a 'rassler - what the hel! do you know? ;)

[unkokusai]

oh, you're just a 'rassler - what the hel! do you know? ;)


You know, the internal organs of us rasslers are different than other people. I would explain how and why but you just wouldn't understand.

[cjurakpt]

You know, the internal organs of us rasslers are different than other people. I would explain how and why but you just wouldn't understand.

no, I agree: it's my understanding w/you all that the cranium communicates directly with the colorectal region :p

[unkokusai]

Its a very efficient system!

[KPM]

The bottom line, does one know how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow?

---No, the bottom line in any martial arts development is can you make it work in a real situation against a resisting opponent. That has little to do with Zhen Qi flow.


So, then all the speculation or trying to explain in the western way....etc doesnt means a thing.

---What speculation? If someone learns to do the "whip method" of power generation that I described it will help with their power output. I've done it. Others have done it. No speculation there. Again, I'm not claiming to be able to launch people flying into the air with just a touch. I'm claiming to have improved my power generation in Wing Chun using the method I described.



So, are you at the point you know how to evoke your zhen Qi flow?

---Are you at the point that you can use your Wing Chun against a resisting opponent effectively and efficiently? That's what I'm interested in. Not chinese metaphysics. And you never answered my question....why is it that all of the video footage showing the masters of chinese internal methods launching people into the air are never demonstrated against an actual resisting opponent? Why are they always shown against a cooperative student?

[KPM]

that's just a typical response of so-called "internalists" who want to get into some sort of esoteric pising contest about who has the higher level of "attainment"; interestingly, it always turns out that no matter what you say about this, it is always an indication of your lack thereof, according to the other person;

---Wow! You've got Hendrik pegged! Did you go back and read his numerous posts from the past? :D Good posts Chris!

[cjurakpt]

Wow! You've got Hendrik pegged! Did you go back and read his numerous posts from the past? :D Good posts Chris!

actually, I haven't read anything of his beyond the last few pages; unfortunately, I've met his type more times than I'd care to admit, both in the world of qigong and also in the world of osteopathic manual therapy which is rife w/the same silly one upmanship, except in that arena they base it on what you can / can't feel on someone (e.g. - you put your hands on someone, and announce that their "problem" is because their "cranialsacral rhythm" is blocked at a certain point; of course, all objective studies on the subject have shown that this is a totally subjective convention, but the people who announce it usually say it like it's the gospel truth, and so generate an orbit of adherents who want to believe it very desperately, but f course never manage to feel what the guru feels, and when they do, he's off "discovering" a new layer of profoundity...)

see, Hendrick thinks he's unique and special - ha! the guy's an amateur; I could produce a room full of energy healers who will tell you all about their own experiences with the etheric field, astral body, etc. who would eat him for lunch, pretty much telling him that his own qi experiences were simply low-level manifestations of the "true" universal energy and all that; so i don't sweat his gimmick, when you open it up to the range of what's out there, it's really nothing that out of the ordinary;

and he "out's" himself anyway - when I pose something concrete, he responds with personal challenges which is basically a reframing tactic - of course, if I am as insecure as he is, which is what his experience has probably shown him to be the case with most people in this arena, then I respond in kind, so now I'm playing his game, de facto validating his perspective; of course, if I invite him to touch hands and to verify in a valid manner, that also makes it too real...

[cjurakpt]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

see, I missed this before, skimming as I did - very nice! I would say it pretty much in the same way; you are basically describing a functional kinetic chain; the only thing I would add is that in their attempts to avoid locking the pelvis into a full anterior tilt (or hyperlordosis of the lumbar spine), I see a lot of people doing the opposite, which is posteriorly tilting the pelvis / flattening the lumbars; this is just as bad; what you want is to have the pelvis in a balanced neutral position, which allows unrestricted transfer of ground reaction force and neuromuscular power through the connective tissue matrix, which also releases stored force through elastic recoil; pretty much what you see when a skilled boxer unleashes his best right cross (which is, of course, inherently inferior to a true "internally" generated taiji strike, as demonstrated to its full effectiveness by...um...you know, that guy...well, ok, no one really...)

BTW, if these people persist, I'm going to start posting the classical taiji ten principles one by one and just break them down according to their anatomical / biomechanical / physiological "reality"...

[Hendrik]

for those who is interested to learn about the ancient practice ONLY.

Basic stuffs nothing special. it applied be it in ancient China or India.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxCfud7xaM&feature=related






It is a free will world. I am ok with whatever others think and speculate and thier choice for themselve. Everyone choose thier own karma.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[cjurakpt]

Basic stuffs nothing special.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxCfud7xaM&feature=related
nothing special indeed; she regurgitates the typical script that you hear from most of her ilk: a little "kundalini" and stories about what it was like "back then" in terms of who got to learn what sort of secrets when they were ready to, versus the deplorable situation these days where any Tom **** or Harry can learn the ancient mysteries (yeah, she really strikes me as someone who lived in a monastery for 30 years before she got to learn "the goods"), mixed in with some half-baked ideas about "energy fields" and "cellular memory" and the obligatory dismissal of the allopathic establishment with their "psycho-tropic drugs"; in other words, lots of generalizations, no specifics

and like most of her genre, she just really stands out as the epitome of a balanced human organism in prefect working order...


some follow the path some just love to argue on what one doesnt know.
oh, that is soooo typical - can't you come up with anything more original than that one? you are such a pompous boob, really - do you realize that at all? you are so busy looking down your nose at those people who just don't get in lock-step with your world view, you think you are so advanced and humble, but you really need to look in the mirror and see yourself for what you are; as my teacher (www.qigongtherapy.com) likes to say, just because one may be further up the side of the bowl than some of the other ants, don't forget that we all are still in the same toilet together...

what I find very amusing is how when ever some one critically challenges this sort of thing in a concerted manner, in other words using the intelligence we are possessed of, they are dismissed as operating out of a lack of "true" knowledge; and of course, there is never a direct answer to any questions posed; for example, I guess that Hendrick wasn't really interested in my offer to "prove" my level of understanding: I guess he was expecting a written description of my experiences with moving "zhen qi", instead of acknowledging that it is really only through direct heart-to-heart transmission that one can truly come to know if an individual is realized - I mean, he wouldn't have actually had to come to meet me, of course, since probably we are no where near each other geopgraphically, but his lack of acknowledgment that this would be the only way to discern someone's level for certain speaks volumes...what's more, if I had written back and told him about what I could do w/my "zhen qi", if it didn't fit his version of what it should be like, he would dismiss it / me, or even if it did fit his preconception of what it should be like, then he would just fall back on the old "well, if that really were the case, then you wouldn't be talking the way you are talking"; puh-leeze...

[cjurakpt]

see, here's my point: I am not saying that my perspective is inherently better than others, in terms of whether one should use it as a means of scrutinizing things like so-called internal practice and I am not criticizing the classical approaches per se: what I am doing is simply calling them by what they are, which are metaphorically based systems of describing physiological processes that occur / can be induced in the human body when one performs certain types of activities that encompass things like qigong practice; and if one wants to be metaphorical, that's cool, go ahead

what I am arguing against is the claim by "internalists" that the current level of understanding of so-called "western" anatomy / physiology / psychology / biomechanics, etc. is that is not capable of fully and completely describing these phenomena, and that by doing so it somehow lessens them; I contend that the knowledge is there, it just requires a bit more education in those areas than most so-called "internalists" have; so again, please, embrace the classical system - but don't pretend that it's the only way to successfully qualify what is going on; just remember, back then, the current level of understanding at of the human organism was limited because the technologies for examining it at a level of detail now possible did not exist: and don't think that if they had, those revered sages wouldn't have used it - that's the prejudice underlying the "classical" view, is that the framework those ancient Taoists used was as good as it could ever get, not that it was just the best that they happened to have at that particular point in time; and again, i do not claim that my perspective invalidates the classical one - in fact, I believe that it actually strengthens it, by saying "look guys - when you run your thing through the wringer of rigorous analysis, a lot of it holds water in terms of the fact that what your doing targets those structures/ processes in the body that push the system towards homeostasis"; of course, some "classicists" will say,"well, we already knew that, we didn't need that perspective to verify it"; to that I would say "stop being so smug - you personally may think that, but maybe there's someone else just as 'qualified' who may think very differently (and rightly so)";

what I am arguing against is someone using metaphor as if it were an objective descriptor: if you use imagery like the "dragon ascending to heaven"to describe a given proces, that's cool, but it's not a relatively objective description of what is going on in the body per se; so if someone comes along and describes that experience in terms of the autonomic nervous and connective tissue systems doing their thing, unless you understand how the ANS & CTS works, you can't dismiss that analysis as either flawed or less complete than the classical approach;

what I am arguing against is reframing the discussion in terms of "oh, but there's so much more going on on levels you can't begin to understand" and "if you really understood the Truth(™®©), you wouldn't be talking like that" schtick; if you do that - 30 blows for you!

the sign of a truly realized individual is that if someone comes along with a perspective that validly describes a practice from a different perspective, they examine it without prejudice on its own merits, and without pre-conditions such as how the person expounding it meets the standards of the "classical" system

that's about it (for now...)

[Hendrik]

what I am arguing against is the claim by "internalists" that the current level of understanding of so-called "western" anatomy / physiology / psychology / biomechanics, etc. is that is not capable of fully and completely describing these phenomena, ----------------------


why even wasting time to argue and people attacking with pages and pages post.... wasting of energy on off topic. IMHO.



just present and share with us

on

what is it and the process of how to evoke Zhen Qi, and then how to using the Yee lead the Qi and Qi lead the physical body.

under the term of your so-called "western" anatomy / physiology / psychology / biomechanics, etc. as you like.

I even invite you to use EEG and HRV to describe the details.


not to mention, the real issue most of the time is one has no clue on what it is. thus, one cannot describe the event but keep using different terms to speculate things which may sounds good but meaningless.



Enlightent us here on what you know and you state attain in depth in details . I am open for you to share with us. and it is excellent if you could.







just remember, back then, the current level of understanding at of the human organism was limited because the technologies for examining it at a level of detail now possible did not exist: ------------------


That is an assumption. it is up to you to assume. in reality the facture evidence is --- it is Not neccesary true.

IE you could have all the high tech EEG in the world to read brain wave but can one based on the data know the type/ level of consciousness one is in?

Best Regards

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Appreciate your posts. JR You wrote:

what I am arguing against is the claim by "internalists" that the current level of understanding of so-called "western" anatomy / physiology / psychology / biomechanics, etc. is that is not capable of fully and completely describing these phenomena,

..

OK! We have a Real Western Doctor involved in this thread. Why not have the Western Doctor explain the process and phenomena of the internal alchemy/qi?

See, western science is just starting to understand this stuff. Why? Better equipment otherwise they still would not believe in it or advocate it. Actually, they are not understanding the process better but are actually able to measure activity!!!!! Not that Western can figure it out or that internal cant be explained in good old fashioned English. So, I do agree with you. Those who I have met who float all can explain it simple! JR

*

this is the one I was looking for - this is just ridiculous: ok, if it's "totally" different", what do you mean by that? what specifically is "different"? BTW, I agree there is something "different", but unlike you I am happy to describe it in detail, and guess what, that makes it a lot less "mystical" sounding overall...again, it's this internal elitism that is just getting in the way of discussing things frankly;



Rediculous? Really? Is the kwa and the dissolved Kwa I described the same? One is floating and one isn't even if you leave it just loose. For me, this is totally different but maybe not for you. Can someone who has gone thru the process describe it? Certainly. I actually did clearly describe the differences from the start. Can someone who has not gone thru the process understand what is going on? It would be not so easy to imagine the alchemy/qi stuff but the conditioning is easy to understand IMO. When you try to complicate this stuff, you lose the beauty IMO. JR

*

it serves only to create an artificial hierarchy which is really more about personal ego than anything else; e.g. "superficial" vs. "real" floating - hmmm, I'm guessing he's in the latter group, right? it would su(k for him if something that he took 10 years to figure out someone else got in one because they just have more natural ability, right? can't have that happen: so, you set up a situation where this is inherently impossible: no chance to get the "real" floating that quick, everyone has to go through the long version;

ROFLOL hahahahahahahahaha Its not about ego its about Float or not Float. I am just posting the info and not saying who has what or not. I write superficial float because of my own experience with the method and training. I am just writing a little bit of my understanding of float or not. Maybe when someone reads this, and is not really floating, then they have a problem with their ego or concepts being bothered? Could be both especially if someone reads this and never heard of whats going on inside the body. Also, floating and internal MA IMO is much much much much simpler than most believe. MUCH. But, you can dance for 10 years and never figure it out as you need a guide with this stuff. Thats all! It just doens't magically occur by default of years training. The exact opposite could be happening. Your trunk may actually be closing off as years go on! Without adding this to the discussion we are leaving out a huge piece to chew on! No long version needed hahahaha. Naturally talented or not so talented is not as important as the daily simple training for a Couple years to attain this stuff.

I have to run but this is my last post. Just jumping in to add something to the discussion. I did not see one word mentioned about the insides of a floating structure so I felt it important to add some food for thought. Agree or not! Its all good!


Gotta run but thanks for the chit chat!

:cool:


Adios!

[KPM]

OK! We have a Real Western Doctor involved in this thread. Why not have the Western Doctor explain the process and phenomena of the internal alchemy/qi?

---That's a loaded question and you know it! But I think Chris has been doing a good job on the anat/physio side. :)


Is the kwa and the dissolved Kwa I described the same?

--We have no way of knowing that, since you haven't explained what you mean by "dissolved" or by "floating."

[KPM]

It is a free will world. I am ok with whatever others think and speculate and thier choice for themselve. Everyone choose thier own karma.



Best Regards
Hendrik


I certainly agree with you! In my understanding, karma is all about action and intent. It is the motivation or intent behind the action that makes it good or bad. Bernt started this thread by asking a quesiton about biomechanics and myself and several others responded with the intent of helping him out in his training. I offered one biomechanical model that I use in training. I never claimed it as "chinese internal martial art", and I never said I could come close to making people fly through the air with a simple touch.

Then Hendrik, you and Jim got involved. In my opinion IF your intent was to help the rest of us out and to educate us you would have used language like ...."that's a good starting point from a biomechanical perspective, but in my experience I think there is some more subtle things going on that you are not accounting for." You could have said something like...."your western explanation is good, but I feel like there are some things happening that western science just can't quite explain yet." You could have offered an attempt to describe what was meant by vague terms like "floating", "dissolved", "Zhen Qi", etc. You would have responded to questions and valid points that were made.

But instead the type of language we saw was the use of terms like "imposter", "speculate", and a negative attitude toward western explanations. You avoided answering questions and didn't address valid points that were made. So, to me and I'm sure others reading this, your intent did not seem to be to help and to educate. Your intent came across as wanting to tell us we were wrong and don't know what we were talking about and to show how much more you know compared to us.

I can't read your heart and mind, but maybe you both need to do as Chris suggested and take a good look in the mirror. What was really your intent? To educate or to denigrate? Did you generate good karma here or bad?

[Hendrik]

I certainly agree with you! In my understanding, karma is all about action and intent. It is the motivation or intent behind the action that makes it good or bad. Bernt started this thread by asking a quesiton about biomechanics and myself and several others responded with the intent of helping him out in his training. I offered one biomechanical model that I use in training. I never claimed it as "chinese internal martial art", and I never said I could come close to making people fly through the air with a simple touch.

Then Hendrik, you and Jim got involved. In my opinion IF your intent was to help the rest of us out and to educate us you would have used language like ...."that's a good starting point from a biomechanical perspective, but in my experience I think there is some more subtle things going on that you are not accounting for." You could have said something like...."your western explanation is good, but I feel like there are some things happening that western science just can't quite explain yet." You could have offered an attempt to describe what was meant by vague terms like "floating", "dissolved", "Zhen Qi", etc. You would have responded to questions and valid points that were made.

But instead the type of language we saw was the use of terms like "imposter", "speculate", and a negative attitude toward western explanations. You avoided answering questions and didn't address valid points that were made. So, to me and I'm sure others reading this, your intent did not seem to be to help and to educate. Your intent came across as wanting to tell us we were wrong and don't know what we were talking about and to show how much more you know compared to us.

I can't read your heart and mind, but maybe you both need to do as Chris suggested and take a good look in the mirror. What was really your intent? To educate or to denigrate? Did you generate good karma here or bad?





Ok, so you would like nice words, I love to give you nice words too. however, I cant give you that becaue it is technical discussion I am interested in here.


You like to hear,

"that's a good starting point from a biomechanical perspective," however, that could mislead people big time. Look at the statistic, how many books have been published using biomechanical and how good is the model fit and how much the reader could get out of it?



Not to mention, as for today, biomechanical is limited as I post in my post, "Partial" . Go back and read my post.

To be more exact, today, even with the model of Neural Network and biology computer; those are still not a satisfied model eventhough they got closer then the biomechanica.

and So, I am not going to give you nice sweet words because It mostly will mislead and I have been there before. sure the ego doesnt like it, however, we are here not to sweeten the ego but to discuss technical.




If you like share with us your experience since you train with the biomechal; how far you have gone and what is the gain and limitation, feel free and great. See, that is much better then speculation because that is true experience, it is respectable be it advance or begining, right or wrong. becaue that is real data point.

finally,

"floating", "dissolved", "Zhen Qi", are not vague term. they are similar to sweet, sour, bitter, until one taste them, how could one use any biomechanical term to make equavalent to them?

[KPM]

Ok, so you would like nice words, I love to give you nice words too. however, I cant give you that becaue it is technical discussion I am interested in here.


You like to hear,

"that's a good starting point from a biomechanical perspective," however, that could mislead people big time. Look at the statistic, how many books have been published using biomechanical and how good is the model fit and how much the reader could get out of it?



Not to mention, as for today, biomechanical is limited as I post in my post, "Partial" . Go back and read my post.

To be more exact, today, even with the model of Neural Network and biology computer; those are still not a satisfied model eventhough they got closer then the biomechanica.

and So, I am not going to give you nice sweet words because It mostly will mislead and I have been there before. sure the ego doesnt like it, however, we are here not to sweeten the ego but to discuss technical.




If you like share with us your experience since you train with the biomechal; how far you have gone and what is the gain and limitation, feel free and great. See, that is much better then speculation because that is true experience, it is respectable be it advance or begining, right or wrong. becaue that is real data point.

finally,

"floating", "dissolved", "Zhen Qi", are not vague term. they are similar to sweet, sour, bitter, until one taste them, how could one use any biomechanical term to make equavalent to them?


Sounds like my previous post fell on deaf ears. Hendrik, for someone that claims to be so advanced and spiritual, you sure can be clueless at times! Oh well! :cool:

[Jim Roselando]

KPM wrote:

OK! We have a Real Western Doctor involved in this thread. Why not have the Western Doctor explain the process and phenomena of the internal alchemy/qi? JR

---That's a loaded question and you know it! But I think Chris has been doing a good job on the anat/physio side.

Its a question? You can either answer it or not? Harvard and other institutions say they cant explain the phenom so you are right. It was a loaded question but I thought I would ask since Chris stated the western approach to anatomy can describe & understand the human organism clearly. Yes & No is the answer to that and you proved it Doc. ;) JR

*

Is the kwa and the dissolved Kwa I described the same? JR

--We have no way of knowing that, since you haven't explained what you mean by "dissolved" or by "floating."

Does a woman have the same pelvic area before and after giving birth? I explained it clearly IMO. This is nto a hard concept to grasp. Float or Not and its not just the Kwa area but that is the easiest to describe even if its kind a difficult to grasp. :eek: JR

Bon Voyage!

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

Its a question? You can either answer it or not? Harvard and other institutions say they cant explain the phenom so you are right. It was a loaded question but I thought I would ask since Chris stated the western approach to anatomy can describe & understand the human organism clearly. Yes & No is the answer to that and you proved it Doc. ;) JR

---Yes! You are absolutely right! "Yes & No" is the answer. But your posting seems not to acknowledge the "Yes" portion. It could very well be that an anat/physio/biomechanical explanation can only go so far. But....it does go as far as it can. Too denigrate and not acknowledge that is somewhat dishonest. One can easily say that science can take us only so far at the present time. But one cannot deny what science CAN tell us...which is what you and Hendrik seemed to be doing.


Does a woman have the same pelvic area before and after giving birth? I explained it clearly IMO.

---No. You did not. So it sounds like by "dissolved" you mean that the ligaments supporting the pelvis have weakened and stretched? That's what happens to a pregnant woman under the influence of hormones released near her due date. And a good percentage of them have sacroiliac pain and problems because of it. To imply that this is a good thing on a permanent basis is inaccurate. After giving birth when those hormone levels go down the ligaments shorten and strengthen again so that she DOES have the same pelvic area before and after giving birth. When that doesn't happen its a problem!

[cjurakpt]

why even wasting time to argue and people attacking with pages and pages post.... wasting of energy on off topic. IMHO.
off topic? the topic of this thread is "center of gravity"; a biiomechanical term; I am talking biomechanics; if anything is off topic its what you bring up;


just present and share with us on what is it and the process of how to evoke Zhen Qi, and then how to using the Yee lead the Qi and Qi lead the physical body.
just don't get it, do you? I am not interested in describing anything based on the metaphorical constructs you mention; I am not saying they are invalid, I'm not saying I couldn't, it's just not what I am trying to get across; why do you have such a hard time understanding that I am working from a different contextual paradigm, which I am trying to utilize to describe a set of internal subjective expereinces that traditionally have been described using metaphorical terminology?


under the term of your so-called "western" anatomy / physiology / psychology / biomechanics, etc. as you like. I even invite you to use EEG and HRV to describe the details.
I don't need to talk about EEG or HRV, because it's not part of what I am trying to communicate: it's not about "EEG shows a change in brainwave patterns during meditation"; we might see a change - but the question is, why? that's what I am interested in: if someone follows the "classical" principles, it means using the body a certain way; and when you use the body a certain way, certain anatomical structures get engaged and that activates certain physiological responses, which up until this point have been described by the "classical" terminology


not to mention, the real issue most of the time is one has no clue on what it is. thus, one cannot describe the event but keep using different terms to speculate things which may sounds good but meaningless.
if I talk about the relative position of the sacrum during certain things, and the effects it has on hypogastric plexus and the subsequent physiological events that occur as a result, and correlate that to an internal subjectiv experience of what is happening in the abdominopelvic region, that is not meaningless: it actually infuses a great deal of meaning into why one would feel that area "dissolve"


Enlightent us here on what you know and you state attain in depth in details . I am open for you to share with us. and it is excellent if you could.
sigh - you are so fixated on your own set of criteria as the only form of validation for whether someone "gets it" or not; you really are getting dull; but ok, I'll indulge you for a brief moment; you want to know where I am "at"? ok:

Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;
Following the Great Pivot, the dragon ascends to the ninth peak;
Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;
Meandering without goal, all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;
When all moves as one, can anything be said to move at all?
if you don't get it from that, then there's really nothing more I can help you with


just remember, back then, the current level of understanding at of the human organism was limited because the technologies for examining it at a level of detail now possible did not exist: ------------------
That is an assumption. it is up to you to assume. in reality the facture evidence is --- it is Not neccesary true.
are you joking? is it an assumption that in 14th century China they were not able to directly observe cellular metabolism? or had a clue about the micro-structure of connective tissue?


IE you could have all the high tech EEG in the world to read brain wave but can one based on the data know the type/ level of consciousness one is in?
you are trying to subvert the argument: I am not suggesting that one could know anything about the subjective experience of someone's consciousness based on an EEG study per se - again, your de facto citing of machinery as indicative of my polemic - where do i ever suggest that you need mechanical in vivo studies to describe things the way I am suggesting? I am not interested in reductionism, I am interested in integration, which I am arguing is possible using a different set of descriptors than what traditionally has been used

[cjurakpt]

OK! We have a Real Western Doctor involved in this thread. Why not have the Western Doctor explain the process and phenomena of the internal alchemy/qi?
first, there is no such thing as a "western" doctor; there are doctors of allopathic, osteopathic, chiropractic, TCM, etc; second, I am not a "doctor", I am a PT; third, I am not going to describe "qi" per se , because you can't, as it's not a disparate entity, it's a metaphorical descriptor - you can define it though, which I like to do as a descriptor of the net effect of functional processes in the body and the environment in which it exists; as such, things like heat, electricity, etc. are all aspects of this concept


See, western science is just starting to understand this stuff. Why? Better equipment otherwise they still would not believe in it or advocate it. Actually, they are not understanding the process better but are actually able to measure activity!!!!! Not that Western can figure it out or that internal cant be explained in good old fashioned English. So, I do agree with you. Those who I have met who float all can explain it simple!
it's not about equipment - it's about an integrated understanding of the structure and function of the body as such


Rediculous? Really? Is the kwa and the dissolved Kwa I described the same? One is floating and one isn't even if you leave it just loose. For me, this is totally different but maybe not for you.
you need to brush up on your reading comprehension: I did acknowledge that there is a difference - the question is, what is the difference? you never actually described what had changed beyond the subjective experience of change; for me, "totally different" implies a major structural reorganization as opposed to a primarily functional change


Can someone who has gone thru the process describe it? Certainly. I actually did clearly describe the differences from the start. Can someone who has not gone thru the process understand what is going on? It would be not so easy to imagine the alchemy/qi stuff but the conditioning is easy to understand IMO. When you try to complicate this stuff, you lose the beauty IMO. JR
you cannot describe it if you didn't go through it; I can describe it because I have gone through it; and because I have studied and lived the anatomy /physiol / biomech in my personal and professional life, I can also explain what the structural basis for that subjective experience is


Its not about ego its about Float or not Float. I am just posting the info and not saying who has what or not. I write superficial float because of my own experience with the method and training. I am just writing a little bit of my understanding of float or not. Maybe when someone reads this, and is not really floating, then they have a problem with their ego or concepts being bothered? Could be both especially if someone reads this and never heard of whats going on inside the body. Also, floating and internal MA IMO is much much much much simpler than most believe. MUCH. But, you can dance for 10 years and never figure it out as you need a guide with this stuff. Thats all! It just doens't magically occur by default of years training. The exact opposite could be happening. Your trunk may actually be closing off as years go on! Without adding this to the discussion we are leaving out a huge piece to chew on! No long version needed hahahaha. Naturally talented or not so talented is not as important as the daily simple training for a Couple years to attain this stuff.
ok, aside from the last statement vis a vis natural talent being less important (it can be very important, sorry to say, I've seen it the difference, more so when people lack it, actually), i actually agree with pretty much all that you say here; meaning that, exactly, it's not the "what", it's the "how" - practice by itself does not guarantee success: practice incorrectly and you will get exactly the results you've worked hard for - the body doesn't care, it's all about input and output; and yes, it is much "simpler" than most think: as I posted before, it took me 10 years before I could turn it "on" at will and get the "float", as you put it (personally, I like the term "resilience" to describe the experience, since I think it encompasses the functional aspects of both "sung" and "peng", which are respectively the receptive and expressive aspects of this phenomenon, IMO;), but once it happened, it was like "duh"; for me, the verification was in several areas, including how the quality of my movement changed (specifically the lower "gan" / root no longer dominating, but being balanced by the upper body "hing" / lightness), how well I could hang with my teacher when pushing: ~30% to 80% in a few months (the "secret" of how it all came together is kinda funny - practicing push hands with young kids, actually, LOL!); and i even agree about the superficial float in the sense you describe now, being that in the beginning you pull yourself up as opposed to allowing yourself to be buoyed up



I have to run but this is my last post. Just jumping in to add something to the discussion. I did not see one word mentioned about the insides of a floating structure
ok, so "inside" a "floating" pelvis there are a few things going on: first off, there needs to be balanced muscular tension in the pelvic floor, mainly to allow pelvic floor and respiratory diaphragm work in relative synchrony; also, this allows the sacrum to be maintained in a position of relative balance, with a slight bias towards nutation (anteriorization of sacral base), but this is not a fixed position; the hypogastric plexus is involved here, sitting right in front of sacrum, being stimulated as you move, giving one that feeling of calmness, fullness etc. indicative of a parasympathetic response; you also feel the "float" because when the lower extremity structure is aligned, the ground reaction force generated by downward pressing of the diaphragm system (including the pedal arches) moves upward unimpeded by structural inhibitors such as excess muscle or connective tissue tension; I could go on a bit, but this is my point: you can talk about the pelvis "dissolving", I want to understand what is causing that feeling and why from the above perspective, which is basically a relatively objective paradigm as opposed to a metaphorical one (which, again, is fine, but just not what I am interested in);

[cjurakpt]

I certainly agree with you! In my understanding, karma is all about action and intent. It is the motivation or intent behind the action that makes it good or bad. Bernt started this thread by asking a quesiton about biomechanics and myself and several others responded with the intent of helping him out in his training. I offered one biomechanical model that I use in training. I never claimed it as "chinese internal martial art", and I never said I could come close to making people fly through the air with a simple touch.

Then Hendrik, you and Jim got involved. In my opinion IF your intent was to help the rest of us out and to educate us you would have used language like ...."that's a good starting point from a biomechanical perspective, but in my experience I think there is some more subtle things going on that you are not accounting for." You could have said something like...."your western explanation is good, but I feel like there are some things happening that western science just can't quite explain yet." You could have offered an attempt to describe what was meant by vague terms like "floating", "dissolved", "Zhen Qi", etc. You would have responded to questions and valid points that were made.

But instead the type of language we saw was the use of terms like "imposter", "speculate", and a negative attitude toward western explanations. You avoided answering questions and didn't address valid points that were made. So, to me and I'm sure others reading this, your intent did not seem to be to help and to educate. Your intent came across as wanting to tell us we were wrong and don't know what we were talking about and to show how much more you know compared to us.

I can't read your heart and mind, but maybe you both need to do as Chris suggested and take a good look in the mirror. What was really your intent? To educate or to denigrate? Did you generate good karma here or bad?

pwned!!!


----

[cjurakpt]

Does a woman have the same pelvic area before and after giving birth? I explained it clearly IMO.

---No. You did not. So it sounds like by "dissolved" you mean that the ligaments supporting the pelvis have weakened and stretched? That's what happens to a pregnant woman under the influence of hormones released near her due date. And a good percentage of them have sacroiliac pain and problems because of it. To imply that this is a good thing on a permanent basis is inaccurate. After giving birth when those hormone levels go down the ligaments shorten and strengthen again so that she DOES have the same pelvic area before and after giving birth. When that doesn't happen its a problem!

my wife is an OB/GYN (she's also a French osteopath, was at one point in the process of getting certified as a yoga teacher, and has a background in crystal healing as well, just to head you off at the pass); she can tell you all about ho most women do not "open" naturally (episiotomy, anyone?), due to various factors from anatomical structure to lifestyle; in fact, studies now show that the long term complications (pain, genitourinary dysfuction) are actually greater with women who give birth "naturally" as compared to those having c-section; so the the idea that women naturally "open" is not in step with the unfortunate reality...of course, the question is what might they do to facilitate the whole process and so avoid any untoward sequelae...

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys!

Thanks for the chat! I wish there were western ways to describe the process of "everything" involved in this but there isn't. Can we describe the odd stuff? Sure! My training partner is a doctor and also does this stuff. I asked him last night to describe the Belt Line or Central Line (aka chong mei) and he said:

Jim, Your asking me to describe what is not really understood from our western science. It opens and lubes but how can I describe pelvic region as there is so much stuff connecting everything and some of this stuff is effecting deeper aspects than the muscles/joints.

Obviously he was talking more about the belt line and not chong mei. When you try to expalin everything thru Pre-Med sort of eye's, like both of you are trying to do, you tend to think you know every aspect of the human machine but really tend to make everything sound more difficult.

http://www.prs.org/occultanat.htm

*
MAN, THE GRAND SYMBOL OF THE MYSTERIES: Thoughts in Occult Anatomy

By Manly P. Hall

*

Its a really cool, and weird, book on the study of esoteric anatomy. Although not specific to qigong or other internal practice, this book will be something both of you would certainly enjoy. A total opposite understanding of anatomy is being presented from todays western training although connecting it to today. I would not recommend this book to those looking for qigong or meditation but you two guys and your Pre-Med explanations would certainly find this most enjoyable IMO.

For only 8 bucks you will get a big book loaded with odd info!


Gotta run!

[KPM]

Hi Jim!

When you try to expalin everything thru Pre-Med sort of eye's, like both of you are trying to do, you tend to think you know every aspect of the human machine but really tend to make everything sound more difficult.

---But we (or at least I) did not claim to explain "everything." I explained a rather simple biomechanical model for training as a way to increase the power output in Wing Chun techniques. I NEVER claimed it had anything to do with "internal" training. If you aren't willing to even consider a "Pre-Med" explanation as a starting point for further investigation how do you hope to EVER understand what is happening in anything other than chinese metaphysical terms? Any kind of "western" explanation has to start somewhere. Do you not want a "western" explanation of things?


Its a really cool, and weird, book on the study of esoteric anatomy. Although not specific to qigong or other internal practice, this book will be something both of you would certainly enjoy.

---Sounds interesting! The link is not working for me right now, so I'll check it out when I get home.

[Jim Roselando]

KPM:


---But we (or at least I) did not claim to explain "everything." I explained a rather simple biomechanical model for training as a way to increase the power output in Wing Chun techniques.

You were explaining the external version of whip. All I did was say this is not the real floating. JR

I NEVER claimed it had anything to do with "internal" training.

You were explaining the external version of whip. All I did was say this is not the real floating. JR

If you aren't willing to even consider a "Pre-Med" explanation as a starting point for further investigation how do you hope to EVER understand what is happening in anything other than chinese metaphysical terms? Any kind of "western" explanation has to start somewhere. Do you not want a "western" explanation of things?

Like I said, for 10 years I have had a doctor as a training partner. He has trained the internal. He knows for sure that what I am talking about is not a normal western medicine concept or description. How does he know that? Years of experience at both. So, do I want a western pre-med explantion? Only if the person explaining has good experience at both and since you guys are so passionate about your pre-med desired explanations i know 100% for sure there has not been much development in this stuff. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who has really done this stuff all explain these things a a scary similar way and that wont be found in your doctors books or webmd dot com.

If that link is not working then follow this:

www.prs.org

Go to: Books

Go to: Occult Anatomy


Bon Voyage!

Peace,

[Hendrik]

off topic? the topic of this thread is "center of gravity"; a biiomechanical term; I am talking biomechanics; if anything is off topic its what you bring up;


just don't get it, do you? I am not interested in describing anything based on the metaphorical constructs you mention; I am not saying they are invalid, I'm not saying I couldn't, it's just not what I am trying to get across; why do you have such a hard time understanding that I am working from a different contextual paradigm, which I am trying to utilize to describe a set of internal subjective expereinces that traditionally have been described using metaphorical terminology?


I don't need to talk about EEG or HRV, because it's not part of what I am trying to communicate: it's not about "EEG shows a change in brainwave patterns during meditation"; we might see a change - but the question is, why? that's what I am interested in: if someone follows the "classical" principles, it means using the body a certain way; and when you use the body a certain way, certain anatomical structures get engaged and that activates certain physiological responses, which up until this point have been described by the "classical" terminology


if I talk about the relative position of the sacrum during certain things, and the effects it has on hypogastric plexus and the subsequent physiological events that occur as a result, and correlate that to an internal subjectiv experience of what is happening in the abdominopelvic region, that is not meaningless: it actually infuses a great deal of meaning into why one would feel that area "dissolve"


sigh - you are so fixated on your own set of criteria as the only form of validation for whether someone "gets it" or not; you really are getting dull; but ok, I'll indulge you for a brief moment; you want to know where I am "at"? ok:

Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;
Following the Great Pivot, the dragon ascends to the ninth peak;
Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;
Meandering without goal, all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;
When all moves as one, can anything be said to move at all?
if you don't get it from that, then there's really nothing more I can help you with


are you joking? is it an assumption that in 14th century China they were not able to directly observe cellular metabolism? or had a clue about the micro-structure of connective tissue?


you are trying to subvert the argument: I am not suggesting that one could know anything about the subjective experience of someone's consciousness based on an EEG study per se - again, your de facto citing of machinery as indicative of my polemic - where do i ever suggest that you need mechanical in vivo studies to describe things the way I am suggesting? I am not interested in reductionism, I am interested in integration, which I am arguing is possible using a different set of descriptors than what traditionally has been used



great sharing about your view and yourself. Thanks.

[cjurakpt]

I wish there were western ways to describe the process of "everything" involved in this but there isn't. Can we describe the odd stuff? Sure!
why can "western" approach describe the "odd stuff" (whatever that means) as opposed to the process of "everything" (whatever that means as well); and incidentally, since when do you speak for the entirety of the body of knowledge that is "western"? maybe you can't describe it with "western" concepts, but that's about as far as you really can take it


My training partner is a doctor. I asked him to describe the Belt Line or Central Line (aka chong mei) and he said:
Your asking me to describe what is not really understood from our western science. It opens and lubes but how can I describe pelvic region as there is so much stuff connecting everything and some of this stuff is effecting deeper aspects than the muscles/joints.
oh, now I get it - because your doc friend couldn't describe these things from a "western" perspective, it can't be done at all; I see; well, we'll get to that in a bit...


Obviously he was talking more about the belt line and not chong mei. When you try to expalin everything thru Pre-Med sort of eye's, like both of you are trying to do, you tend to think you know every aspect of the human machine but really tend to make everything sound more difficult.
I'm sorry: what is "Pre-med"? I am unfamiliar with that term, so I really don't know what you mean when you say I see it out of that "sort" of eye; are you suggesting that the basis of my information is the same that a pre-med college student has? are you? really? (smiles, puts face in hand, shakes head)


Like I said, for 10 years I have had a doctor as a training partner. He has trained the internal. He knows for sure that what I am talking about is not a normal western medicine concept or description. How does he know that? Years of experience at both.
so again, what sort of MD is your friend? what is the range of his experience? and, incidentally, your sub-text suggestion that I should for some reason feel inadewuate as compared to an MD in terms of my body of knowledge of anat / phys is kinda funny, only because it's a bit played out; quite frankly, IMPE, I do a more thorough / comprehensive neuromusculoskeletal eval than most MD's out there, and about as comprehensive a general PE as most GP's as well; my pharmacology is generalist, but enough to integrate it into my own area of practice in terms of effects, contraindications, etc. remember, PT's are primary care providers in most states, so we do get people off the street that we have to screen for serious pathology when doing an initial, in order to know when a patients complaints are within our scope of practice and when to send them to their PCP or an ER; so I don't sweat that you think an MD has necessarily more info on things than I do in a lot of areas


So, do I want a western pre-med explantion? Only if the person explaining has good experience at both and since you guys are so passionate about your pre-med desired explanations i know 100% for sure there has not been much development in this stuff. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who has really done this stuff all explain these things a a scary similar way and that wont be found in your doctors books or webmd dot com.
you really like this trench you are digging in; ok, one more time: it's not about what is in textbooks, or on web.md per se; of course you will not get an anatomy book that will say "oh yeah, the TCM Belt Meridian corresponds to 'x'"; if you start from there, you are already doomed to failure; instead, it's about having a the "internal" experience, and then relating that experience to what is known currently in "western" anatomical / physiological / biomechanical body of knowledge; in other words, if I feel something happen inside when I do a certain movement, or posture or meditation or whatever, and then I feel certain things going on, I take that direct experience and correlate it to the anat/phys/biomech;

for example, the first taiji principle in our system: "heui ling / yuen ding" - empty the collar / suspend the top: I could write 10 pages on why this pithy proscription makes total sense from the perspective of biomechanics, postural neuromotor activity and autonomic nervous system function; I never have to get into "qi" or anything related to meridians to completely describe what is happening and to substantiate it; for example, when you "empty the collar"(by doig a slight chin tuck in conjunction with touching the tongue to the upper palate and letting the eyes gaze slightly downward), this action creates an instantaneous change along the sub-occipital line, specifically the suboccipital musculature (yes, I know, muscles are "inferior" structures from the perspective of TCM; even your doc friend characterizes them as relatively superficial w/his comment about things going on that are "deeper" than muscles joints - actually, they are quite the opposite, I think muscles are very "deep" - i mean, the respiratory diaphragm is "only" a muscle, but is in a sense the prime mover behind a great deal of visceral function - ever think of that? and in fact, it could be said that muscles are possessed of a very deep "intelligence", at least based on my interaction with them over the years); now,we know that the sub-occipitals have a relative higher ration of sensory fibers to contractile fibers than other spinal muscles; which suggests that they have more to do with monitoring the relationship of the cranium to the torso; also, when you "empty the collar", you feel changes in thoracic and lumbar and SI regions; so the implication is that by changing the relative position and resting tension of the sub-occipitals (and other muscles as well, such as the accessory respiratory - SCM, scalenes - which facilitates respiratory diaphragm, allowing deeper breathing, decreased SNS tone, increased "massaging" of abdominal viscera, and decreased congestion of pelvic floor / "kwa") you have a global effect on the way the postural system organizes neurologically and structurally (structure and function being interdependent as they are); part of the change, i believe, is that by decreasing excess tension in the thoracics (by aligning the spinal segments in gravity), you decrease the output of the sympathetic chain and create an environement of increase parasympathetic tone by changing the environement locally at occiput and sacrum (where you have loci of PSNS stuctures); finally, you create an environment whre ground reaction force can move up through the connective tissue matrix relatively unimpeded, and due to the tensegrity propoerties of this system, create a net effect of upward thrust, which you subjectively feel as if the head were "floating" on the top of the spine ("suspend the top")
so again, what you have is relatively objective correlation of the internal subjective experience; meaning that when explaining what is going on to someone, you can either use the "classical" terminology, or a more concrete approach; neither invalidates the other, in fact it supports the universality of the practice - which was my initial intention, which for some reason people seem to feel threatened by and interpret as my suggesting that the traditional descriptors are to be dismissed and forgotten; not at all - but they are not then obligatory either - that is my point;
now, you may say that this makes things "sound more difficult" - the implication seems to be that I am trying to complicate and obsfucate just to make myself sound smart or at best wasting my time chasing my own tail; well, sorry, the body is complex - what's interesting though, is that you don't actually need to know all the specific details to make it work well - it's like driving a car - all you need to know is a few simple things to make it work, without knowing much about the engine; meaning that, the 'classical" descriptors can be used successfully to produce the desired results; what i am doing is trying to look at what is actually going on in terms of the structure and function; if it's too hard for you to follow, that's ok, you don't have to - but if you don't understand it, then you certainly can't dismiss it, because you really have no capacity to judge it on its own merits (and BTW, feel free to show this to your doc friend, maybe he can "translate" it for you)

and again, my perspective is not "pre-med", nor are my descriptions; your attempts at diminishment are kinda sad; and BTW- what is your level of understanding in this area? you seem very happy to dismiss my perspective, deriding it both as superficial and at the same time too complicated (situationally convenient critiques that I am used to seeing from the "traditionalists"), and then defer to your doc friend's opinion - but you offer nothing in response in terms of counter argument: you don't say "well, I disagree about your point vis a vis the sacrum, because..."; instead you just cloak yourself in Chinese concepts and smugly reject the possibility that they are not as irreplaceable as you would like to think they are...so, based on that, you apparently know nothing about anatomy / physiology / biomechanics - so then, on what basis do you have to judge as to whether they are appropriate descriptors?

BTW, it's interesting how, when I do go into some "classical" concepts relating to your "floating" pelvis notion, you have decidedly little (well, ok, nothing) to say about it...


great sharing about your view and yourself.
well, you asked; and like your buddy Jim, apparently when I do address you in context of the "classical" terms, you evidently have nothing to say about it...

[Hendrik]

well, you asked; and like your buddy Jim, apparently when I do address you in context of the "classical" terms, you evidently have nothing to say about it...


sometimes not saying anything is already says everything.
if a person who makes claim on the following doesnt realized that; what to say?

-----------------
you want to know where I am "at"? ok:

Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;
Following the Great Pivot, the dragon ascends to the ninth peak;
Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;
Meandering without goal, all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;
When all moves as one, can anything be said to move at all?

if you don't get it from that, then there's really nothing more I can help you with

-------------------------




didnt this person making claim "the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart?"

if his kundalini actually has reach the Crown Chakra and then reside in the Heart Chakra for the greatest compassionate and unconditional love. what is needed to be said?



Dont
Anyone at that state will be able to read the level of everyone in this discussion via thier post or posts, pick up the signature of thier states of attainment?

Nothing could be hide, argue. Just Read it.
What to be said? everything is Nakedly transparent by evidents in front of one's eyes.





if one not even capable to evoke the Zhen Qi or the prana to start the Kundalini. Then, well, qouting

"Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;"

is just a repeating, a speculation of the mind based on one's accumulative knowledge or book reading/ repeating which is meaningless, and how can that get one to " all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;" ?




Not to mention, how is one going to even start the first step

"Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;" ?

If No Zhen Qi ignited what to be cultivate in the Cinnabar field?
What dragon? when Shen is not even Known or address.




All man who is in the journey of Dao has to learn to be very carefull and honest on his step isnt it?





Peace




BTW: Thanks and appreciate for your Sharing on you view on the Taiji point, I take that as very ingineous.

that is a good way to share.






Since you bring up Taiji. let see from these Taiji Grandmasters.

To see, To hear his own words :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AHM57xOBn80&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&feature=related

It will be great for someone to translate what the master is saying and let the world know is it muscular or other stuffs., what is the Nei Qi. and what is the second system cultivation... a different paradigm.

Is it Nei Qi, Zhen Qi or is it COG and biomechenic handling or everything or whatever ? hahaha what ever you believe is fine with me. free world. whether if one has the process to get to as advance as the clip also is fine with me. free world. what to argue? reality is reality.

and sure, everyone is free to invent thier own system, their own way of explanation....etc.. it is also fine with me. Free world. however, if one is talking chinese holistics martial art then one better know what is one talking about.
or at least seen and have learn what is a Chinese holistics martial art.

NOtice: I use the world holistic because it is not a partial art. it is an art include the Qing, Qi, and Shen. not a partial art of bone, sinews, and muscle.

[KPM]

You were explaining the external version of whip. All I did was say this is not the real floating.

----Actually you said...."Hope this helps point of the difference between Locked Body, External Whip designer imposter & Internal method." You called me or my description (unclear which?) an "imposter", implying that I was trying to pass it off as an "internal method." Again....I NEVER claimed it had anything to do with "internal" training.

You were explaining the external version of whip. All I did was say this is not the real floating. JR

---Please go back and read my post about intent. If your intent had been simply to help and educate the readers of this thread, I don't think you would have jumped so quickly at calling things "imposter." Nor would you have been so quick to denigrate a "western" explanation of biomechanics. If you were really interested in helping and not just showing up everyone else, you could have taken a very different approach. After all, just look at the direction that this thread has taken since you and Hendrik got involved. Its pretty much been sidetracked from a meaningful discussion about its original purpose.


Like I said, for 10 years I have had a doctor as a training partner. He has trained the internal. He knows for sure that what I am talking about is not a normal western medicine concept or description. How does he know that? Years of experience at both.

---No offense to your friend, but please realize that doctors come in many varieties and many levels of knowledge. You wouldn't expect a cardiologist or an endocrinologist to be able to provide the level of explanation of pelvic floor mechanics that Chris did. Its just not their area of specialty. So just because you know one MD that can't explain things very well from a western perspective doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot.

So, do I want a western pre-med explantion? Only if the person explaining has good experience at both and since you guys are so passionate about your pre-med desired explanations i know 100% for sure there has not been much development in this stuff.

---And I'm 100% sure that you're wrong about that. I'm not into Chi Gung or Internal development, but it sure sounds to me like Chris knows what he's talking about! It at least shows that he has some experience in the training. But I did notice that you and Hendrik were remarkably silent about Chris's foray into the Chinese metaphysics. :eek:

[KPM]

Since you bring up Taiji. let see from these Taiji Grandmasters.

To see, To hear his own words :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AHM57xOBn80&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&feature=related

It will be great for someone to translate what the master is saying and let the world know is it muscular or other stuffs., what is the Nei Qi. and what is the second system cultivation... a different paradigm.



---And I'll ask again, for what...the third time? Why are these kinds of demonstrations always against a cooperative student and not against a resisting opponent?

[cjurakpt]

oh Hendrick, Hendrick - you are so quaint! so erudite ! and, best of all, so PREDICTABLE!!!
man, you just walked right in to this whole thing so blindly: I mean, did I call it a mile away, or what (more on that in a moment)?

to recap:

initially, Hendi poses the question / challenge:

The bottom line, does one know how to evoke one's Zhen Qi flow? So, are you at the point you know how to evoke your zhen Qi flow? If you are...enlightent us here.

to which I demured (bold mine):

start another thread called "Describe your inner experience subjectively" and i'll be happy to post all day long on what I've "achieved", although that's probably boring - i mean who cares - unless you like drinking the dregs of someone else's meal; besides, the only way to know for sure would be if we had the opportunity to bask in each other's presence, right? I mean, the way to really ascertain someone's level is to push with them, or have them treat you; otherwise it's all talk; I mean, I could say "sure, I can evoke it" - no way to prove or disprove that, right? you need to get in touch directly... anyway, stop trying to sideline the discussion - deal with my points on their own merits - refute them directly; be clear
oh, one more point; even if I was able to circulate my "zhen qi" on command, so what? personally, to me, the point of cultivation is a bit more than ticking of some sort of esoteric checklist: if you can circulate you qi through the entire macroorbit and then go home and be an asZhole to your wife and kids, what's the point?


but he won't be put off, no he really wants to walk through the weeds together:

just present and share with us on what is it and the process of how to evoke Zhen Qi, and then how to using the Yee lead the Qi and Qi lead the physical body. Enlightent us here on what you know and you state attain in depth in details . I am open for you to share with us. and it is excellent if you could.

so, I figure, let me "indulge" him with something he can snag himself on:



Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;
Following the Great Pivot, the dragon ascends to the ninth peak;
Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;
Meandering without goal, all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;
When all moves as one, can anything be said to move at all?


anyway he seems to like it

great sharing about your view and yourself. Thanks

but he doesn't really respond: sensing a trap perhaps? not bad, maybe not as dumb as he looks; so I encourage him:

apparently when I do address you in context of the "classical" terms, you evidently have nothing to say about it...

and, bingo, he can't resist! in rare form, he goes to town, basically taking my little verse as proof positive of my lack of understanding - not only because of the content, but by the fact that I answered him at all; which is just the way I called it initially, LOL!:

so-called "internalists"...want to get into some sort of esoteric pising contest about who has the higher level of "attainment"; interestingly, it always turns out that no matter what you say about this, it is always an indication of your lack thereof, according to the other person;

so now, let's have a look-see at his "analysis"

sometimes not saying anything is already says everything.
oh, that he would have subscribed to that philosophy from the get go; but no such luck...


if a person who makes claim on the following doesnt realized that; what to say?
nothing to say, which is what I was saying from the get-go - there is nothing to say, because it's all just signifier and has nothing to do with what's going on - no dust, no mirror man;


didnt this person making claim "the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart?"
if his kundalini actually has reach the Crown Chakra and then reside in the Heart Chakra for the greatest compassionate and unconditional love.
my love is unconditional - I love to unconditionally point out the inconsistencies in what you post; and I do it with great compassion; oh, and BTW, compassion and unconditional love do not mean the automatic acceptance of anything someone has to say;


what is needed to be said?
again, nothing - which was why I had no interest in discussing it; but you kept scratching at the door, trying to draw me out; so i threw you a bone; literally; and you barked, oh how you barked!


Dont
Didn't


Anyone at that state will be able to read the level of everyone in this discussion via thier post or posts, pick up the signature of thier states of attainment?
Nothing could be hide, argue. Just Read it.
What to be said? everything is Nakedly transparent by evidents in front of one's eyes.
dude, unlike you, who hides behind someone else's description of the world and plays the wise sage, I am what I am, no hiding, totally exposed without concern; take what you will from it, that's cool


if one not even capable to evoke the Zhen Qi or the prana to start the Kundalini. Then, well, qouting
"Heaven and earth unite, and the thousand petaled lotus opens to reveal the true heart;"
is just a repeating, a speculation of the mind based on one's accumulative knowledge or book reading/ repeating which is meaningless,
of course it's all just repeating,because true transmission is heart to heart - just hold up the flower and watch someone smile, that's it - all the poetical imagery is inherently empty, just waiting for someone to fill it in with their opinion of the speaker, for good or for bad (and again, you basically trashed it, behaving just as I predicted you would, LOL) - because as soon as you do, you're in the weeds with everyone else, and the only reason to go there is if you are there to teach - (which I am not doing, especially as no one asked); dude, it's all just metaphor, it's not indicative of anything;


and how can that get one to " all the myriad phenomena return to the Source;" ?
Not to mention, how is one going to even start the first step
"Slumbering dragon arouses in the cinnabar field;" ?
If No Zhen Qi ignited what to be cultivate in the Cinnabar field?
What dragon? when Shen is not even Known or address.
again, you claim to have some knowledge of my personal experience, when in fact you have none; and just for "the record", when in fact my "progress" was evaluated some years ago, it was a somewhat more positive appraisal (not to mention a face to face one) and by someone a bit more reliable (http://tendirections.org/Master%20So-Yu.htm)than you

but the kicker, is that you really didn't get that is what I was pointing out, did you? what exactly did I write? let's examine the important parts:


you want to know where I am "at"? ok:
if you don't get it from that, then there's really nothing more I can help you with

in your zeal to point out my shortcomings, you missed the point entirely that was demonstrated, which is that "claims" of such nature are not indicative of anything, they are simple manifestations of the "I", meaning the ego-construct that needs to be fed, that needs the trappings of hierarchy to establish a context within which it can operate: the "I" that wants to say them as well as the "I" that wants to hear them; all empty, devoid of anything, the dregs of someone's leftovers;

you think you are in such an exalted state but you don't even realize that you've got mud all over your shoes;


All man who is in the journey of Dao has to learn to be very carefull and honest on his step isnt it?
well, even if you happen to misstep and end up in something "undersireable", just remember that there is Dao even in the pisz and in the dung...

anyway, in the words of the immortal Seinfeld "well, it's been really nice dating you for a while, good luck!"; you may now go back to your stone polishing...

[cjurakpt]

And I'll ask again, for what...the third time? Why are these kinds of demonstrations always against a cooperative student and not against a resisting opponent?
brother, now you're making far too much sense ;)

the reason is actually simple: when it's done against a non-compliant, resisting opponent with no psychological investment in his teacher being untouchable, it doesn't look nearly as one sided - in fact, it looks a lot like 2 guys pushing each other...http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm
(website of a good friend of mine with who I have had the pleasure of pushing, and PUSHING; oh, and get ready for the comments to follow about how what he is doing is not "real" taiji, LOL)

what really bugs me is this: inevitably, the clips showing this sort of thing have one across the board similarity - the demeanor of the guy demonstrating is pretty much always this smug attitude where they are chuckling in this self-congratulatory manner about how inherently superior what they do is, as they demonstrate how it so easily foils the attempts of those other poor deluded guys who rely on their inferior externally powered attacks...

[Hendrik]

oh Hendrick, Hendrick - you are so quaint! so erudite ! and, best of all, so PREDICTABLE!!!


...... in your zeal to point out my shortcomings,
you missed the point entirely that was demonstrated, which is that "claims" of such nature are not indicative of anything, they are simple manifestations of the "I", meaning the ego-construct that needs to be fed, that needs the trappings of hierarchy to establish a context within which it can operate: the "I" that wants to say them as well as the "I" that wants to hear them; all empty, devoid of anything, the dregs of someone's leftovers;

you think
you are in such an exalted state
but you don't even realize
that you've got mud all over
your shoes;


well, even if you happen to misstep and end up in something "undersireable", just remember that there is Dao even in the pisz and in the dung...







May the Buddha bless you with peace


peace

[cjurakpt]

May the Buddha bless you with peace


peace

sorry, going all warm and fuzzy after the challenge you issued has been stepped up to and met directly doesn't really cut it; if you were as disinterested and detached from all this as you claim, you wouldn't have posted in the first place (me, I'm totally mired in the mud, no denying that!)

[Hendrik]

Since you bring up Taiji. let see from these Taiji Grandmasters.

To see, To hear his own words :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AHM57xOBn80&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&feature=related

It will be great for someone to translate what the master is saying and let the world know is it muscular or other stuffs., what is the Nei Qi. and what is the second system cultivation... a different paradigm.



---And I'll ask again, for what...the third time? Why are these kinds of demonstrations always against a cooperative student and not against a resisting opponent?


If I were you I would ask what are these Grandmasters teaching in the clip and what mechanics they reveal.

As for your question, my suggestion is
Go Bai Si with those grandmaster in China and experience out for yourself and then share with us your experience.

That is the most convincing way to get the answer ---- experience itself. right?



Peace

[Hendrik]

sorry, going all warm and fuzzy after the challenge you issued has been stepped up to and met directly doesn't really cut it; if you were as disinterested and detached from all this as you claim, you wouldn't have posted in the first place (me, I'm totally mired in the mud, no denying that!)


OK,

How about lets switch to

HOPE THAT YOU FEEL RELEASE NOW.

peace


PS: is that better?

[cjurakpt]

OK,

How about lets switch to

HOPE THAT YOU FEEL RELEASE NOW.

peace


PS: is that better?

you just can't resist the urge to teach, can you, LOL?

[Hendrik]

you just can't resist the urge to teach, can you, LOL?



Everything in the world is speaking its own Dharma at all time. Focus on Oprah and she is teaching too. hahaha

[cjurakpt]

Everything in the world is speaking its own Dharma at all time.

when my dog barks, I don't take notes...

[Hendrik]

when my dog barks, I don't take notes...



Dog also has Buddha Nature and is the future Buddha. Before Tsunami comes those who listern to Dog's barks got lead to a safe place.

[Hendrik]

Back to the topic:


iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

-----------------------------------


The Question is is Chong Sum (the heart of weight) speak in the Taiji Grandmaster's clip above means COG?
anyone care to share?





another good one, how did they do it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2i3UysN-o&NR=1

[KPM]

As for your question, my suggestion is
Go Bai Si with those grandmaster in China and experience out for yourself and then share with us your experience.



Wow! Like Chris said, you are so predictable! I was just waiting for that answer!!! Anytime in the past anyone has asked you a question you didn't want to answer or couldn't answer....that was your response. :rolleyes:

[KPM]

The Question is is Chong Sum (the heart of weight) speak in the Taiji Grandmaster's clip above means COG?
anyone care to share?

---You first! :eek:


another good one, how did they do it?

[url]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2i3UysN-o&NR=1

---According to you, the only way anyone would know would be to Bai Shi to this man and experience it directly. So why even ask that question? And again....why is he demo'ing on cooperative partners rather than showing how he can use this in action?

[Hendrik]

Wow! Like Chris said, you are so predictable! I was just waiting for that answer!!! Anytime in the past anyone has asked you a question you didn't want to answer or couldn't answer....that was your response. :rolleyes:



You dont like the answer find your own answer which you like. That simple.

[KPM]

Here's another good one! Look what happens to this guy when he actually faces a resisting opponent! :eek:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UDiRA7Idmcs&feature=related

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=KPM;853455]The Question is is Chong Sum (the heart of weight) speak in the Taiji Grandmaster's clip above means COG?
anyone care to share?

---You first! :eek:


Yes and No.

Yes, It applied in a certain partial physical way.

No, it cant cover the holistic totallity.

If one is not capable of differentiate what is partial and what is holistic, one needs to go to Bai Shi and learn.


Now, your turn.






another good one, how did they do it?

[url]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2i3UysN-o&NR=1

---According to you, the only way anyone would know would be to Bai Shi to this man and experience it directly. So why even ask that question? And again....why is he demo'ing on cooperative partners rather than showing how he can use this in action?




If one is serious enough, one certainly will learn what the teacher in the clip is sharing.

If one have the level or the depth of Kung Fu then share if not then go and Bai Shi to learn what one dont know.

if one dont know what level one are in similar to a little kid has tons of question . then one parents needs to send one to a kinder garden as a start. That is a good starting point, isnt it?

and if one doesnt want to learn and keep questioning then ignore him to safe energy drain.

[Hendrik]

Here's another good one! Look what happens to this guy when he actually faces a resisting opponent! :eek:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UDiRA7Idmcs&feature=related




You are an MD right?


call Pennsylvania state Univ for this

http://u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2007.html



-----

.....there appeared to be morphologic changes, such as a large number of cells had multiple nuclei and also the total number of cells kept increasing,


which can not be explained by modern medical science. And even the cells were still alive; they may not bear the same features as original UT-7. This is a breakthrough in biological science; it shows by changing the primary energy structure of cells could change the characteristics of them.


This also provides a scientific explanation of energy rejuvenation.....

-------


The world is soooo vast, there are so many things need to be experience and learn. There are macroscopic, microscopic, humanistic..... to be learn....

holding a materialistic idea as the core of one's mind set and take that as a GOD's law that gorven the universal is just extreme.

[norrin]

@all thanks again for answering-if you did answer;). but my question was/is can someone show me exercises to create that kind of power(rooting,dynamic groundpath or whatever you wwant to call it). i am not interested in giving it names like chi-power or so. just can i learn it in lets say one or at least 3or 4 years? and how?
@hendrik if you want to know the answers your where asked, visit thisman in germany:
http://www.shayuquan.de/

he will tell you in half an hour about the way chi-power or what they call chi-power works. but i want to know the realdeal-means punching with my whole body in the punch-not loosing balance when pulled or pushed in any stadium of movement-and doing all this dynamic in movement not in a static stance. i want the exercises for it----- i think i almost have some but want more----. i want to be able to fight with that skill not to demonstrate in front of believers. and hendrik please check out u.g krishnamurti website to get clean of all that area51 based thougths which will lead you nowhere!! try to make it work or you will end up like peter asellers in the garden! remember this movie-he knows it all by TV;)
didnt mean to upset you by this ok?
greetings bernd



Back to the topic:


iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

-----------------------------------


The Question is is Chong Sum (the heart of weight) speak in the Taiji Grandmaster's clip above means COG?
anyone care to share?





another good one, how did they do it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2i3UysN-o&NR=1

[Hendrik]

but my question was/is can someone show me exercises to create that kind of power(rooting,dynamic groundpath or whatever you wwant to call it). -----


you need someone to coach you one to one to get there. and that person needs to be a master of the art. No easy way and No short cut.



i am not interested in giving it names like chi-power or so. just can i learn it in lets say one or at least 3or 4 years? and how? ----

again, learn it in 3 or 4 years is possible. Get a sifu who knows what he is doing. as for how deep you can attain that also depend on your training and the nature of your body. No one cookie cutter fit all.

[Hendrik]

@hendrik if you want to know the answers your where asked, visit thisman in germany:
http://www.shayuquan.de/

he will tell you in half an hour about the way chi-power or what they call chi-power works.

but i want to know the realdeal-means punching with my whole body in the punch-not loosing balance when pulled or pushed in any stadium of movement-and doing all this dynamic in movement not in a static stance.

i want the exercises for it----- i think i almost have some but want more----.

i want to be able to fight with that skill not to demonstrate in front of believers. and hendrik please check out u.g krishnamurti website to get clean of all that area51 based thougths which will lead you nowhere!!

try to make it work or you will end up like peter asellers in the garden! remember this movie-he knows it all by TV;)
didnt mean to upset you by this ok?
greetings bernd


Thank You.


Even the so called internal art or energy art needs to have solid based. In fact, one of it is the ability to quiet one's mind.

and it takes years or even decade to learn how to quiet one's mind for a general human beings. not to mention one needs a teacher to closely lead and watch over oneself. this is certainly not the Mc DoJo or instant fast food deal.

as my late sifu the Chan partiach Ven. Hsuan Hua said, " Cultivation is not taking Opium for high. " it is not a fashion and temperory high stuffs. or show off stuffs or punching to destroy stuff... it is solid work.

also, energy is about dynamic flow. that part most dont have a difficulties to grasp even thought most think they know. unless one experience it leading by a sifu, it is difficult to communicate this type of information because it involve transformation and transcending...


on the other side, placing "punching, fighting..." in you mind is not good. for those who looking forward to have a fight will manifest it. that is the law of attraction.
and also, who can guarentee the guy who you face might be an advance player then you no matter what you have learn? who to say you will win?

So, take a way those learning how to fight thoughts, attract good and peace not fighting.


Best Regards



PS

what do you mean by :

hendrik please check out u.g krishnamurti website to get clean of all that area51 based thougths which will lead you nowhere!!

[norrin]

PS

what do you mean by :

hendrik please check out u.g krishnamurti website to get clean of all that area51 based thougths which will lead you nowhere!![/QUOTE]

ug will give you another view on all these kundalini stuff, maybe:)

[KPM]

You are an MD right?

call Pennsylvania state Univ for this

http://u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2007.html

---What does that have to do with what's going on in either of those video clips? Interesting that when a clip is posted that is contrary to your own, you skirt the issue and redirect.


The world is soooo vast, there are so many things need to be experience and learn. There are macroscopic, microscopic, humanistic..... to be learn....

---We finally agree on something! But if you truly believe that, why are you so closed minded when it comes to considering anat/physio/biomechanical explanations?

holding a materialistic idea as the core of one's mind set and take that as a GOD's law that gorven the universal is just extreme.

---Holding a mind set that automatically EXCLUDES a materialistic explanation is equally as extreme!!! :eek:

[KPM]

Hi Bernt!

---Glad you've stuck it out in this misdirected thread! :)

@all thanks again for answering-if you did answer;). but my question was/is can someone show me exercises to create that kind of power(rooting,dynamic groundpath or whatever you wwant to call it). i am not interested in giving it names like chi-power or so. just can i learn it in lets say one or at least 3or 4 years? and how?

---I've given you a simple biomechanical model to think about and to start incorporating into basic techniques. I've also suggest three different exercises to start developing it. Have you tried them out? Remember, I'm not the one that suggested this has anything to do with Chi or "internal" development. This is simply a basic model and method that I feel has helped me to develop some of the things you are asking about. And what I am suggesting is not unique to me, I've seen it in a lot of good Wing Chun people. And certainly you can learn it in less than 3 or 4 years. Its just biomechanics, not metaphysics or internal alchemy.

[Hendrik]

You are an MD right? call Pennsylvania state Univ for this ---H

http://u-energy.org/ScienceTest/DistanceHealing2007.html

---What does that have to do with what's going on in either of those video clips? ---k




It got everything todo with Qi, Energy, chinese Internal cultivation.

This is a western experiment result contribute by a Grandmaster who practice Internal cultivation such as Qi and Yee Chuan.











The world is soooo vast, there are so many things need to be experience and learn. There are macroscopic, microscopic, humanistic..... to be learn.... ---- H

---We finally agree on something! But if you truly believe that, why are you so closed minded when it comes to considering anat/physio/biomechanical explanations? ---K



----------------
.... which can not be explained by modern medical science. And even the cells were still alive; they may not bear the same features as original UT-7. This is a breakthrough in biological science; it shows by changing the primary energy structure of cells could change the characteristics of them. ---- Penn State

-----------------

The above is Penn State Univ's word not mine. It said -- which can not be explained by modern medical science.

So is it some one is close minded or it is some one who is not able to accept reality and making all kind of excuse and twisting?

Call Penn State if you dont like thier words. --- "which can not be explained by modern medical science."

How open minded are you to be able to accept the reality?

not to mention, the phenomenon of due to one is wearing RED sun glass ; one always think all others also see the world as RED.









holding a materialistic idea as the core of one's mind set and take that as a GOD's law that gorven the universal is just extreme. ---H

---Holding a mind set that automatically EXCLUDES a materialistic explanation is equally as extreme!!! :eek: ---K



You must be not understand the different between the word "just EXTREME" and EXCLUDES?




Best Regards

[Hendrik]

PS

what do you mean by :

hendrik please check out u.g krishnamurti website to get clean of all that area51 based thougths which will lead you nowhere!!

ug will give you another view on all these kundalini stuff, maybe:)[/QUOTE]


why do you think I bring up Kundalini, Energy..... or even painbody in today new age word?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4aUjLiLiriA

if one dont even know about one's painbody, what to talk about center? what to talk about gravity? which gravity? perhaps there is no gravity at all it is just a drama auto pilot by pain body.

certainly, it is not my interest to feed anyone's painbody. and I am not going to stop anyone who love to feed painbody and or running by painbody in auto-pilot mode too. Free Will world.

Best Regards
soo long

[norrin]

Hi Bernt!

---Glad you've stuck it out in this misdirected thread! :)

@all thanks again for answering-if you did answer;). but my question was/is can someone show me exercises to create that kind of power(rooting,dynamic groundpath or whatever you wwant to call it). i am not interested in giving it names like chi-power or so. just can i learn it in lets say one or at least 3or 4 years? and how?

---I've given you a simple biomechanical model to think about and to start incorporating into basic techniques. I've also suggest three different exercises to start developing it. Have you tried them out? Remember, I'm not the one that suggested this has anything to do with Chi or "internal" development. This is simply a basic model and method that I feel has helped me to develop some of the things you are asking about. And what I am suggesting is not unique to me, I've seen it in a lot of good Wing Chun people. And certainly you can learn it in less than 3 or 4 years. Its just biomechanics, not metaphysics or internal alchemy.

yes and thanks for that i am alway looking for new methods to get this in wing chun. now ishow you some things i more or less regurlaryly --ooops sh.. dont know how to write it but you know what i mean--do.
siu lim tau with the focus on changing the COG or rooting from foot/leg/side to the other just by pressing the leg into the floor. pulling or pushing against a resistent "enemy" like wooden dummy a wall or something->similar to tjis:
http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/images10/bruce_lee.gif

doing the chum kiu also trying to change the COG from one side to another which i find very difficult without bending for or backwards, hitting the wallbag-> i position my fist on the bag and try to punch with my waist and by pressing the leg into the floor, punching with a Resistance Band just like ross training but with the intention on using my waist and the legs instead of my arms and shoulders, and i am doing this but not like the lady i am trying to use my kwa also with this exercise--ironing clothes with the use of my kwa


what do you think am i crazy??

[KPM]

It got everything todo with Qi, Energy, chinese Internal cultivation.
This is a western experiment result contribute by a Grandmaster who practice Internal cultivation such as Qi and Yee Chuan.

---And, again....exactly what does that have to do with whether what is being shown in those video clips will work against a resisting opponent?????



The above is Penn State Univ's word not mine. It said -- which can not be explained by modern medical science.

So is it some one is close minded or it is some one who is not able to accept reality and making all kind of excuse and twisting?

---Hendrik....have you even read ANYTHING that I've posted? Have you tried to see ANYTHING that I've tried to say? You are arguing in circles! Have I ever once denied that there are things that cannot yet be adequately explained? What I have said (and more than once!) is that just because there are things we may not yet understand from a "western" perspective, there is no reason to totally reject EVERYTHING that we do attempt to explain with a western model. If you ever what to truly understand from anything other than a metaphysical/metaphorical perspective, then the explanation has to start somewhere! Why is that so hard for you to see? And yet you seem to be calling me "close minded"???? :(


not to mention, the phenomenon of due to one is wearing RED sun glass ; one always think all others also see the world as RED.

---Hendrik...please...for your sake....go take a good hard look in the mirror!!!!!




You must be not understand the different between the word "just EXTREME" and EXCLUDES?

---I understand it very well. Do you? You are the one that has closed your mind to or excluded the possibility of some things being explained from a western anat/physio/biomechanical perspective. I have NEVER said that that perspective has all of the answers. Only that when it can explain some things, we ought to be paying attention!

[KPM]

yes and thanks for that i am alway looking for new methods to get this in wing chun.

---Ok. Sure! Maybe someone else will chime in with some training methods to accomplish similar things. I'd love to hear what others do as well. I certainly don't have all the answers!

what do you think am i crazy??

---No. It sounds like you are on the right track. It may simply be a case of keeping up with the training and letting the skills develop.

[cjurakpt]

see, Hendrick is so totally absorbed in his own little world, that he doesn't even realize the fundamental point he is entirely missing: this thread's topic is "Center of Gravity"; now, this, as far as I am aware, is a "western" biomechanical term; meaning that the guy who started this thread was interested in utilizing his body in context of this concept; he never, not once, asked something like "hey, can anyone give some input as to the 'Chinese' perspective on this 'western' concept"? furthermore, since we are starting from a "western" construct, not only is the whole qi / yi / etc. stuff immaterial, it's actually irrelevant, because, if, as Hendrick maintains, you can't describe "Chinese" concepts from a "western" perspective, then obviously you can't do the opposite; or is that not the case? because it sure seems like Hendrick's got it in his little pin head that while "western" descriptors are inherently limited, the "Chinese" ones are not, that the system to which he subscribes has got it all

see, here's what cracks me up: regardless of what system you use to describe the human organism and it's experience of itself in the world / cosmos, it starts from one common thing: subjective experience; meaning that, if I do certain types of movements, breathing, quieting-the-mind, etc., I will have the same or highly similar reactions internally regardless of the system I practice: meaning that it can be qigong, yoga, sufi practice or Native American spiritual pursuits or Catholic Monk chanting / meditation; and all these different systems have their own way of describing the phenomena they encountered, based on their general cultural world view; are any of these wrong? are any of these incomplete? - depends on ones perspective - but each is equally as valid and each equally as capable of fully describing a given set of experiences;

because of this fact, my interest is this (I repeat again): when i practice certain things, such as standing, I feel subjectively things that go on inside my body; my goal is to describe these phenomena by means of applying current knowledge of "western"anat/phys/biomech; to date, I believe that I have been able to "explain" the majority of what I have experienced using this particular system; note, I am NOT trying to explain "qi" - "qi" is not to be explained, it is used as a way to explain those same experiences, just from a different perspective; which is valid, but just not of interest to me;

but Hendrick can't seem to understand this: he keeps re-booting back to his dull line of inquiry re: my describing my experiences using HIS TERMINOLOGY: and again, as i said before, that is of no interest to me inherently; so then, Hendrick tries to squirm around by saying things like "western" science can't explain everything; well, that's true - but, um, does that mean we shouldn't try? I mean, has Chinese thought explained everything? he seems to be implying that Chinese concepts can; which of course, they can't - because for all it's talk about higher consciousness and flowing of qi, TCM has never been as successful as allopathic medicine when it comes to things like trauma management and acute bacterial infection; certainly, there are things that TCM is better at treating, like chronic imbalances in the system (although in the "west" homeopathy, osteopathy and other similar systems do a pretty good job of it as well); but if a given system can't explain something, does that mean one should stop right there and not push any further? see when I hit the wall, so to speak, and am unable to easily explain something I experience with western concepts, well, then it's time to go and do more research and figure out what I am missing

the real question is, why is Hendrick a cultural elitist who thinks that the Chinese concepts of shen, qi, etc. are the only ones that have the potential to describe the human organism's totality of function? or is it that he thinks that there are other ways (e.g. - yogic), but he is just biased against western thought in particular? which, in order to be be so, would imply that he has total awareness of the body of knowledge, and doesn't base his conclusions on one dubious study at Penn State that is unable to explain one instance of asymmetrical cell proliferation (we could call this the "Jim's doctor friend" scenario - one example of lack of total comprehension = the generalized failure of an entire system- yeah, I like that)

of course, Hendricks's reply will be something off-topic and full of well-wishes for my continual prosperity and spiritual development :rolleyes:


Dog also has Buddha Nature and is the future Buddha. Before Tsunami comes those who listern to Dog's barks got lead to a safe place.
oh, and BTW Schmendrick, I think I here some yapping in the distance - you might want to start heading for higher ground...

[cjurakpt]

i am alway looking for new methods to get this in wing chun.

here is a link to a vid by my friend Sifu Mike Pekor in regards to training COG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnOMs09Z8po


BTW - U.G. Krishnamurti is one crazy, cranky mo fo - I tend to prefer J.Krish., but U.G. can sure be compelling at times...

[Jim Roselando]

KPM & Chris,


Both of you wrote some good stuff. Both of you wrote the Bio of this and that BUT the reality was that their was NO mention of the stuff I entered into the discussion before I entered it into the discussion. Now, here we are trying to debate about how well you understand what was a later addition to the discussion but it was not even a consideration to be talked about before someone else brought it in? This is kind of funny. Chris later says what we are talking about was something that he achieved the long way after 10 years of training but still didn't mention it once until I said their was the whip and external whip and why no cog. Now, the conversation is jumping all over the place and everyone knows everything hahahahaha. ;):p



:cool:

[cjurakpt]

Both of you wrote some good stuff.
to which you seem unable to respond directly


Both of you wrote the Bio of this and that BUT the reality was that their was NO mention of the stuff I entered into the discussion before I entered it into the discussion.
so, basically, you admit that it's your fault that the thread got derailed by your off-topic posts


Now, here we are trying to debate about how well you understand what was a later addition to the discussion but it was not even a consideration to be talked about before someone else brought it in? This is kind of funny.
no, it's annoying, because you can't seem to understand that there is no interest in your perspective vis a vis trying to reframe things in "classical" terms - the question was about COG - meaning that the context was a biomechanically based one, not a CHinese metaphysical one; what's funny is that you are so in love with your own world view that you think it's the only one out there that can appropriately address the original poster's question


Chris later says what we are talking about was something that he achieved the long way after 10 years of training but still didn't mention it once until I said their was the whip and external whip and why no cog.
so what? the temporal progression is not causal; in other words, it just happened to come up after, and what? I mentioned it in context of giving a perspective of my own experience - note, i never said that it would necessarily change how long it might take based on approach; and I never said that someone else might not get it much more quickly...


Now, the conversation is jumping all over the place and everyone knows everything hahahahaha. ;):p
with you evidently being the exception, since you seem unable to directly address the point-by-point responses I make to what you post;

instead of being a smug s(hmuck, why not address things on their own merits? for example, if you take issue with my contention that the "traditional" concepts like qi etc. are not required to describe training phenomenon, then demonstrate the flaw in my analysis of the first taiji principle that I posted a few pages ago (meaning that, if you think the way I applied the anat/phys/bio is wrong, point out the error - don't tell me the system is inherently flawed - i know you think that already, I don't care about that particular perspective at all)

[cjurakpt]

BTW - Hendrick and Jim: you will never get the last word on this; I will post on this thread refuting everything you write point by point until you either stop coming back with your incessant, ill-formed, non-sequitur blather, or until I die (or at least until my wife chases me off the computer...or Gene bans me :D)

[Hendrik]

BTW - Hendrick and Jim: you will never get the last word on this; I will post on this thread refuting everything you write point by point until you either stop coming back with your incessant, ill-formed, non-sequitur blather, or until I die (or at least until my wife chases me off the computer...or Gene bans me :D)


OK. you can have the last word.

peace

[cjurakpt]

OK. you can have the last word.

peace

Buddha bless you, brother

[Hendrik]

Buddha bless you, brother


May Buddha bless you too.

Contradict to some's believe about me on western science....etc

I have worked on a Neuron network model or Multi-Layers model to model the different "layer" of the "whole". reality is multi-dimensional and it needs a multi-dimensional model to model it.

See, Biomechanica is partial and could be very misleading due to it is not ALIVE enough and the Doer is not describe but only the tool is focus. without the Doer included in the system. that is partial. IMHO.


Thus, Neuron Network decenterized model could model the whole system closer. from the force vector to the consciousness layer. and all layers stack up to see the full multi-dimentional.

In reality, human is not a centralized system similar to a computer. Every Cell is by its own is an active computer. as model in the book by the energy Master Li Ji Xing who did the experiment with Penn State above.
Multi-dimensional , Neuron networking, parallel processing, wave resonance theory, quantum mechanics, is much closer.

to be just very honest, that is a fun project but what is the point to continous on and release it , and create more killing or fighting karma or feeding the fighting "pain-body"? the world is chaos enough, the globar warming, the war, the..... all the Pain-Body energy un manage-able.


Teaching This human so that he will win and make the other human to lost still sum up to human being's lost.


the reality is not that complex. however to heal oneself from the Pain Body or Karma or the habitual energy is much difficult similar to change the energy level of the electrons.

So, how to deal with the Pain Body is more important then how to deal with COG, IMHO. if one could handle one's Pain Body which is an energy flow/ votex then by default it is easier to handle the COG or distributive COG.

in contrary, even if one could handle one's own physical COG perfectly one still the slave of the Pain Body and one doesnt have handle on one's 'COG' of consciousness. In ancient China, the ability to handle the Pain Body is Mo Duk. or Martial virtue. as said in Dao De Ching, one doesnt take pride and celebrate on how many enemy one defeat.


Who cares for COG when one could resonance lively like an active wave? Dont the WCK kuen kuit said, Come accept, Goes return.... those are active resonance dynamic state, COG change at every instant.... what is the COG of a wave?


To be able to release one's pain body at heat is the real kungfu. and only one could handle the pain body with ease, one then could design the outcome and handle one's energy/body with ease.

Thus, as
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." until one knows how to handle one's pain body, one dont know what one is doing but a slave to the pain body or karma energy.


How sad it is to give the world the technology and make the world a better slave of the Pain body?

Only if the teaching of COG could contribute to peace and harmony then it worth to be study.



Best Regards

[KPM]

Both of you wrote some good stuff.

---Oh? One couldn't tell that be reading your responses, or lack thereof.

Both of you wrote the Bio of this and that BUT the reality was that their was NO mention of the stuff I entered into the discussion before I entered it into the discussion.

---That was because it was not relevant to the discussion. Bernt asked what was essentially a biomechanical question, and got a biomechanical answer.

Now, here we are trying to debate about how well you understand what was a later addition to the discussion but it was not even a consideration to be talked
about before someone else brought it in?

---No. We are debating how well YOU understand what you brought up. I never claimed to understand the "internal alchemy." But you don't seem to understand that biomechanical explanations CAN be relevant and useful.

This is kind of funny.

---Its kind of sad actually....how close-minded you and Hendrik have been and the fact that neither of you seem to be able to see that.

Chris later says what we are talking about was something that he achieved the long way after 10 years of training but still didn't mention it once until I said their was the whip and external whip and why no cog.

---Because its wasn't RELEVANT at the time!

Now, the conversation is jumping all over the place and everyone knows everything hahahahaha. ;):p

---Its only jumping all over the place since you and Hendrik took it off track!

[KPM]

here is a link to a vid by my friend Sifu Mike Pekor in regards to training COG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnOMs09Z8po

.

Thanks Chris! His first drill is very similar to one I do as part of my warm up.

[cjurakpt]

Thanks Chris! His first drill is very similar to one I do as part of my warm up.

no prob; Mike's a real mensch - if you check out his video Youtube page he's got a lot of interesting stuff - he and I "bonded" when I went to visit his school, and we were sitting around talking after class about some philosophical stuff, and he makes some point about being in the moment, and I was like, "oh yeah - Krishnamurti calls that 'choiceless awareness'", and he comes over and gives me a big hug, like he's found a kindred spirit - very mensch-like!

we also do that sort of thing in our system (although the mechanics are a bit different in the shoulders) - what do you guys call it?

[KPM]

we also do that sort of thing in our system (although the mechanics are a bit different in the shoulders) - what do you guys call it?

---I don't know of a formal name for it. I just call it "loose pivots." :) I start essentially like Mike does in the video, but maybe with less folding at the hip and more action from the legs. Then I progress to doing the loose arm swing with the pivoting action in the stance (Chor Ma). Then I bring the arms up into double Lan Sao and do the pivots that way. This part is right out of the Chum Kiu form. I try to capture that spiraling action from the loose arm swing within the double Lan Chor Ma. BTW...what is your system?