Double punch

[Leto]

In many shaolin forms I see punching type techniques with both arms shooting out in opposite directions. Sometimes performed facing forward, sometimes turned to the side.

It's in qixingquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc&feature=related

in xiaohongquan and dahongquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y&feature=related

taizuchangquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY

it's found in many other forms as well.
Is this simply a method of generating power, or is there an application for both arms in these techniques? I'm sure it's not meant to be punching two people at once, at least not in most cases. Flinging off a hold in some way? pulling and punching at the same time?

[kfman5F]

Many traditional CMA were originated as battlefield arts, meaning fighting more than one opponent. These punches are meant for that and to generate power as well.

[MasterKiller]

Wrestling techniques, imo.

[Leto]

What type of wrestling technique? Breaking out of a bear hug, maybe? Escaping from a clinch where someone is trying to hold your arms to kick your legs and take you down?

[Shaolin]

Also stabilizes balance in your stance.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Also stabilizes balance in your stance.

The way I've always seen it, you usually perform these punches with a movement into a bow stance. The backwards punch keeps you from throwing your weight too far forward without sacrificing power, as a method of stabilizing your stance.

[Leto]

I can feel what you're talking about, in the forward stance. But what about the horse stance version, facing forward, both arms come from the center and shoot out to either side?

[NJM]

I can feel what you're talking about, in the forward stance. But what about the horse stance version, facing forward, both arms come from the center and shoot out to either side?

Aesthetics?

Also, several styles use moves like these in forms to help transition from one direction to the other.

It could also represent a gold block takedown.

[Leto]

Aren't there several people on this forum who actually practice the shaolin forms I posted, and would know for sure the applications? Maybe it's a secret only for "closed door" students?

NJM, what's a gold block takedown?

[Pk_StyLeZ]

I can feel what you're talking about, in the forward stance. But what about the horse stance version, facing forward, both arms come from the center and shoot out to either side?

the horse stance.....i can demonstrate it better i can explain it.......
it has several method..and one of the method can be used to attack two people.....

[Shaolin]

While a multiple attacker application is possible it's unlikely. Think about, you just so happen to have an aggressor on either side of you and you're going to project equal amounts of force into both. Let us also take into consideration each attacker would have to be within arms reach which means you allowed two opponents to surround you and get within striking distance. I'd like to believe our Shaolin forefathers who were brilliant enough to devise this complex system that has lasted 15 centuries would be wise enough not to allow multiple opponents to line themselves perfectly on either side of them.

I say again, I agree with you it is possible to use this concept against multiple attackers, but unlikely. It's mostly for power generation.

Example: Take a rubber band and a pencil. Put the pencil and your finger through the opening of the rubber band. Twist the pencil until the rubber band tightens to your finger. Let go of the pencil.

The unwinding momentum creates equal power on both ends of the pencil but only one side is used to strike, the other is counter balance.

Keep in mind this is only one example.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

While a multiple attacker application is possible it's unlikely. Think about, you just so happen to have an aggressor on either side of you and you're going to project equal amounts of force into both. Let us also take into consideration each attacker would have to be within arms reach which means you allowed two opponents to surround you and get within striking distance. I'd like to believe our Shaolin forefathers who were brilliant enough to devise this complex system that has lasted 15 centuries would be wise enough not to allow multiple opponents to line themselves perfectly on either side of them.

I say again, I agree with you it is possible to use this concept against multiple attackers, but unlikely. It's mostly for power generation.

Example: Take a rubber band and a pencil. Put the pencil and your finger through the opening of the rubber band. Twist the pencil until the rubber band tightens to your finger. Let go of the pencil.

The unwinding momentum creates equal power on both ends of the pencil but only one side is used to strike, the other is counter balance.

Keep in mind this is only one example.

this is true...i agree with what you saying....
but in the move i was talking about..when you are in the horse stance..and then punch both arms out.....well sometime in situations...you do get grabbed by both guys...which is common..if it is 3 on 1...a lot of the time..2 guys will grab u so the 3rd guy can pound on u...well thats when you get into horse stance..pull ur arm together..and punch out...to free ur self.....that is one of the application..it might not be the best..but it is possible to use it =)
of course it will take a lot of training for this technique to work...since u have to be somewhat strong to pull in and then punch out...but im sure if practice 1000 times a day...for 8 hrs a day(like they did back then)...u will be strong enough to do it.....might not be appliacable for mordern times...but im sure it was back then in the ancient times...

[Judge Pen]

My friend in CLF described the purpose for this type of technique as "hiding" the second arm so it can be thrown without telegraphing where is is coming from. If you punch out in a left bow stance and left arm at your opponent, the right arm is also extended at the same plane to the right. Looking at your line, however, the person you are striking will not be able to see the shoulder, arm or hand of the right arm. Now, its extended to gain momentum and power at multiple angleswithout having to be chambered and without your opponent knowing which angle it is coming from.

This might not be exactly what you are talking about, but I thought it was a good explantion for the two arm techniques that I see my friends doing in CLF.

[Shaolindynasty]

My friend in CLF described the purpose for this type of technique as "hiding" the second arm so it can be thrown without telegraphing where is is coming from.

"one hand lies, the other tells the truth"


. Now, its extended to gain momentum and power at multiple angleswithout having to be chambered and without your opponent knowing which angle it is coming from.


In Choy Lay Fut it is easier and more effective for us to "chamber" in this position for our swinging strikes than the typical hand on the hip(although we do this also).

Your friend is correct about the CLF theory he told you.


I'm interested in the shaolin explination of this technique. In DeYangs instructional video he said these techniques weren't punches, rather double blocks against mutiple opponents. He performs this technique slightly different than most of the others I have seen though.

[sha0lin1]

As my master explained it this technique can be used multiple ways. The first and most obvious is a double punch for two attackers, as in Xiao Hong Quan. The second is a single punch to the forward attacker and a sweeping block with the other arm as in Chao Yang Quan. In Tai Tzu Chang Quan there are no double punches the forward hand is a hook punch and the other is an elbow strike, at least in the variation my master teaches.

In our line drills we use this to learn to generate power from the waist by pushing off our back foot. We sit into Ma Bu while blocking forward and then we push into Gong Bu using our waist to generate power while punching forward with the rear hand and out to the side with the lead hand. We also do the drill that PK mentioned, Block into Ma Bu and then punch out to both sides.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

As my master explained it this technique can be used multiple ways. The first and most obvious is a double punch for two attackers, as in Xiao Hong Quan. The second is a single punch to the forward attacker and a sweeping block with the other arm as in Chao Yang Quan. In Tai Tzu Chang Quan there are no double punches the forward hand is a hook punch and the other is an elbow strike, at least in the variation my master teaches.

In our line drills we use this to learn to generate power from the waist by pushing off our back foot. We sit into Ma Bu while blocking forward and then we push into Gong Bu using our waist to generate power while punching forward with the rear hand and out to the side with the lead hand. We also do the drill that PK mentioned, Block into Ma Bu and then punch out to both sides.

isnt there double punch in chang quan......
after the jump kick slap foot tingy(er ti jao)...dont u land into mabu and turn into gung bu and use both fist and aim for the head or body..depending which way he teaches it now.....and then isnt there a move in chang quan when you are in gung bu..and one arm is punching down.and the other is punching up??(the move before the tai chi circle hand tingy).....i learn chang quan from ur xing ying too....

[LFJ]

there's also the mabu punching forward and backward in taizichangquan as well. that type of doulble punch is all over that form in different variations. :confused:

anyhow, consider:

application of danbian, single whip: a kick trap between the arms- whatever type of kick, front, side, round. the leg is caught in the crook of the front arm, the back arm holding it in and blocking the face. then the back hand pulls the leg/pantleg back, pulling them in, while the front arm sneaks a sack shot under the leg. :)

xiexing, slanting has a similar application, cuz it starts from the kick trap. but the leg is caught in the crook of the back arm this time. front arm blocking. the free front hand then grabs the back/side of the opponents head, the front foot hooks their base leg, you twist your body to gongbu, pulling their head down and pushing their leg up, spinning their body and tripping the base leg. down they go sanda style. you end up in the gongbu xiexing position. :cool:

[sha0lin1]

isnt there double punch in chang quan......
after the jump kick slap foot tingy(er ti jao)...dont u land into mabu and turn into gung bu and use both fist and aim for the head or body..depending which way he teaches it now.....and then isnt there a move in chang quan when you are in gung bu..and one arm is punching down.and the other is punching up??(the move before the tai chi circle hand tingy).....i learn chang quan from ur xing ying too....

Yes there are those, I was assuming that the poster was refering to the double punch that puches out from the side.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In many shaolin forms I see punching type techniques with both arms shooting out in opposite directions. Sometimes performed facing forward, sometimes turned to the side.

It's in qixingquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc&feature=related

in xiaohongquan and dahongquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y&feature=related

taizuchangquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY

it's found in many other forms as well.
Is this simply a method of generating power, or is there an application for both arms in these techniques? I'm sure it's not meant to be punching two people at once, at least not in most cases. Flinging off a hold in some way? pulling and punching at the same time?

It just a simple take down, you use both arms to knock someone over your front bow stance leg. You step behind them at a 45 degree angle while you shoot out your arms and they fall over your leg.
Nothing mysterious.
Try it.

[Leto]

Hmm. Thanks for all the responses.
There's lots to think about. If you are pushing someone over your leg, what is the other arm doing? Shouldn't they both be pushing the same direction? Is the second arm just for balance or aesthetic purposes? That's really why I ask about this type of technique. It has been pointed out to me, by folks unfamiliar with it, that this posture doesn't seem to be useful or efficient for fighting, and this is what prompted my question. I believe there must be a good explanation for it...I feel like it isn't a purely symbolic/aesthetic move, but I haven't personally used it in fighting. Perhaps it is open enough of a movement that it can represent several different principles/applications.

So far, we've had several good suggestions. None of them, to me, have been detailed enough descriptions that I can say "yes, that is definately it". You just need to try things out to really get it, I know. I understand if people don't want to reveal too much, the applications being the "secrets" that some people don't give away without being a trusted disciple.

[LFJ]

So far, we've had several good suggestions. None of them, to me, have been detailed enough descriptions that I can say "yes, that is definately it".

likely because every movement is altered in application, lots of times not directly resembling the movement of the form, and one movement may have at least three applications (ie. striking, throwing, & joint locking).

be wary, you shouldnt come to a point where you say "yes, that is definitely it". perhaps "yes, that is definitely one possibility". :)


I understand if people don't want to reveal too much, the applications being the "secrets" that some people don't give away without being a trusted disciple.

"secret" techniques are fantasy. many teachers, including monks, openly teach applications. the thing they keep inside the family is often times more so the correct way to do the forms, or entire sections of them. but whatever movements they teach you should come with application. otherwise, there's no use in teaching it. and if it were "secret" it would be part of the form they dont reveal.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm. Thanks for all the responses.
There's lots to think about. If you are pushing someone over your leg, what is the other arm doing? Shouldn't they both be pushing the same direction? Is the second arm just for balance or aesthetic purposes? That's really why I ask about this type of technique. It has been pointed out to me, by folks unfamiliar with it, that this posture doesn't seem to be useful or efficient for fighting, and this is what prompted my question. I believe there must be a good explanation for it...I feel like it isn't a purely symbolic/aesthetic move, but I haven't personally used it in fighting. Perhaps it is open enough of a movement that it can represent several different principles/applications.

So far, we've had several good suggestions. None of them, to me, have been detailed enough descriptions that I can say "yes, that is definately it". You just need to try things out to really get it, I know. I understand if people don't want to reveal too much, the applications being the "secrets" that some people don't give away without being a trusted disciple.

There is no "one" application, that would be silly.
Each movement can be used in many hundreds of ways, because in Shaolin, you are in a meditative state when attacked, you do not "think" and try to choose and pick what move to do when, you would be blanking out and losing time, and get clobbered by the time you decide.
Instead your body learns the movements, your mind learns why to do the movements that way. After practicing without "thinking" (Zen No Mind), your body and mind become one and you release the movement that is necessary at that time.

Without learning both proper body mechanics and theory as a foundation before you learn forms, you cannot ever use it for self defense.

Now, as far as this particular movement goes, you have to look at the set up movements that are happening right before this one, a set is made to flow, one movement begets another.

This movement is often done in response to both wrists being grabbed by someone when you have just executed "Cloud over Head - 7 Stars".
In Xiao Hong Quan, before you do this "single whip" movement (in Rou Quan the same exact movement is called "Er Lang (a god) Pierces the Mountain"), you first shift your body to one side, sink, and bring the backs of your fists up and facing each other, then you step to the left as you open up, your left leg does a twisty thing that is intertwining the opponent's supporting leg, at the same time your right arm is now pulling the person off balance and your left arm is knocking them over your left knee to trip them.

This is one main application that is most often taught first (back in the old days when I learned in the 1970s).

[David Jamieson]

pull it off in competitive fighting to show it's usefullness.

the time for theory is dead.

theoretical combat is dead.

action is the only thing that provides a measure of proof.

talk proves nothing.

if you cannot demonstrate it, then it is useless.

having said that, is there any footage of it being applied with effect?

thanks

[Leto]

There is no "one" application, that would be silly.
Each movement can be used in many hundreds of ways, because in Shaolin, you are in a meditative state when attacked, you do not "think" and try to choose and pick what move to do when, you would be blanking out and losing time, and get clobbered by the time you decide.
Instead your body learns the movements, your mind learns why to do the movements that way. After practicing without "thinking" (Zen No Mind), your body and mind become one and you release the movement that is necessary at that time.

Without learning both proper body mechanics and theory as a foundation before you learn forms, you cannot ever use it for self defense.

Now, as far as this particular movement goes, you have to look at the set up movements that are happening right before this one, a set is made to flow, one movement begets another.

This movement is often done in response to both wrists being grabbed by someone when you have just executed "Cloud over Head - 7 Stars".
In Xiao Hong Quan, before you do this "single whip" movement (in Rou Quan the same exact movement is called "Er Lang (a god) Pierces the Mountain"), you first shift your body to one side, sink, and bring the backs of your fists up and facing each other, then you step to the left as you open up, your left leg does a twisty thing that is intertwining the opponent's supporting leg, at the same time your right arm is now pulling the person off balance and your left arm is knocking them over your left knee to trip them.

This is one main application that is most often taught first (back in the old days when I learned in the 1970s).

I understand, and thanks for taking the time.

[LFJ]

"Er Lang (a god) Pierces the Mountain")

should be translated as "erlang carries the mountain". (chin.: erlang dan shan 二郎担山) "dan" means to carry, or shoulder. as in chengdan 承担, "to bear".

the legend of the chinese warrior deity erlang was said to be strong enough to carry two mountains on his shoulders while facing an opponent. the strength of carrying two mountains is to be simulated during training and courage in combat facing a larger opponent. hence the honorific title to the movement.

there is even a wushu style called "erlang boxing" (chin.: erlangquan 二郎拳) which has a lot of movements with the arms outstretched in opposite directions.
basic set (http://youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs)
basic applications (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AmtOraYA4p0&feature=related)


your application of the move is one of the possibilities though. the rear hand wraps and grabs the wrist of the opponent while the front foot hooks the opponents front leg. then the front arm does an elbow strike and fully extends the arms to push them back over your leg, while holding their wrist. from there, they are on the ground and you still have their arm, so you can kick to the ribs, drop and go for the armbar. but thats extra. :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

should be translated as "erlang carries the mountain". (chin.: erlang dan shan 二郎担山) "dan" means to carry, or shoulder. as in chengdan 承担, "to bear".

the legend of the chinese warrior deity erlang was said to be strong enough to carry two mountains on his shoulders while facing an opponent. the strength of carrying two mountains is to be simulated during training and courage in combat facing a larger opponent. hence the honorific title to the movement.

there is even a wushu style called "erlang boxing" (chin.: erlangquan 二郎拳) which has a lot of movements with the arms outstretched in opposite directions.
basic set (http://youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNnQ2JVMs)
basic applications (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AmtOraYA4p0&feature=related)


your application of the move is one of the possibilities though. the rear hand wraps and grabs the wrist of the opponent while the front foot hooks the opponents front leg. then the front arm does an elbow strike and fully extends the arms to push them back over your leg, while holding their wrist. from there, they are on the ground and you still have their arm, so you can kick to the ribs, drop and go for the armbar. but thats extra. :)

I know all about the "carry" character, I've seen in used in the more modern set desciption, true.

But, it is called "Pierces" or "Splits" the Mountain in the Chuan Pu I have for the Shaolin Rou Quan and the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and the Shaolin Da Xiao Hong Quan sets that feature this move. I've been translating Chinese for over 10 years.
Because the emphasis is on the stretching out of the arms to each direction first.

I know that he carries the mountain, but he also splits the mountain in the legend. I just reread it the other day.

[richard sloan]

There is no "one" application, that would be silly.
Each movement can be used in many hundreds of ways, because in Shaolin, you are in a meditative state when attacked

I felt like that should be emphasized...as far as I know most if not all shaolin techs in monastic lineages are from the standpoint of defense against aggression...from there it morphs into the concept of no attack/no defense, every block is a strike, etc.

[Fei Li]

To my knowledge, those double techniques in Chang Chuan serve not really as martial applications, but to develope a better awareness of the surrounding space.
So, when you punch in front you concentrate also in the backfist, extending your mind to
both directions. This can serve later on to get aware of attacks in your back.

[LFJ]

I know all about the "carry" character, I've seen in used in the more modern set desciption, true.

But, it is called "Pierces" or "Splits" the Mountain in the Chuan Pu I have for the Shaolin Rou Quan and the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and the Shaolin Da Xiao Hong Quan sets that feature this move. I've been translating Chinese for over 10 years.
Because the emphasis is on the stretching out of the arms to each direction first.

I know that he carries the mountain, but he also splits the mountain in the legend. I just reread it the other day.

那你会讲中文，太棒了！:cool: 释德扬大师总用这个“担”字，说“二郎担山”。不管是小洪拳或者是大洪拳或者是大通臂拳那个动作的名称不是 叫做“单鞭”就是叫做“二郎担山”。"split"或"pierce"翻译成中文是哪个字呢？穿？二郎劈山？至于少林武功来讲，我从来没听说过这个翻译。

[Sal Canzonieri]

那你会讲中文，太棒了！:cool: 释德扬大师总用这个“担”字，说“二郎担山”。不管是小洪拳或者是大洪拳或者是大通臂拳那个动作的名称不是 叫做“单鞭”就是叫做“二郎担山”。"split"或"pierce"翻译成中文是哪个字呢？穿？二郎劈山？至于少林武功来讲，我从来没听说过这个翻译。

Understood, I agree that it is "担" in most sets, but for sure in Shaolin Rou Quan I learned it as "zhang shan". And, Rou Quan is considered to be the older of the Shaolin material (which most of the more well known sets were Qing Dynasty in origin).

[LFJ]

i see. that would explain it. but i cant find that name online. is it 张?

[Sal Canzonieri]

i see. that would explain it. but i cant find that name online. is it 张?

! I'm sorry, I spelled it wrong in pinyin (typing faster than I was thinking I guess), it is QIANG:
槍 trad / 枪 simplified

[Lucas]

power generation, though this is with large movements.

as in xiaohongquan and dahongquan, also try this:

when you are going to throw the arms out, experiment with keeping one arm in guard position. each arm can be singled out, depending on the situation. the power generation you recieve from extending both arms can still be found with a smaller motion on the arm keeping guard ready. depending on the direction you pivot, this one technique actually gives you the choice of 4 differnt punches. this being the rear hand can punch out instead of going to hide in back as well.

Of course this is just one angle.

another example:

you are in a 'bear hug' from either the front or the back. in the form you pull both arms to your rib cage, at this point you are possibly grabbed with trapped arms. breath in deeply. exhaling quickly and suddenly as well as dropping your weight can give you an opportunity to try and escape. (dont forget to say hi to his instep) remember you can pivot out either direction. so escentially, depending on the pivot you have an arm to wrap a man behind you, quite possibly resulting in a clinch type scenario (putting you on much more even ground), or an arm extending directly forward. where a man holding you from the front is now vulnerable in many areas.

These are two interpretations of that particular movement in xiaohongquan, dahongquan.

Also do not forget to let go of the form. In actual combat there is much adjustment that must be made depending on situational circumstances. for instance, these arm movements could be direct punching or hammer fists, as well as throws, escapes and i suppose multiple attackers. However I would vere away from the multiples scenario. Hopefully you can keep one of the 2 enemies between you and the other, no?

The best way to become familiar with what this movement has to offer is to put yourself in scenarios, and experiment.

[richard sloan]

Viking!


______________________________

[r.(shaolin)]

Although there are a few direct applications of some of these kind of movements, the main purpose of these symmetrical movements is the cultivation of internal energy and to develop the ability to project energy into a target (generally students who just hit sand bags, etc., to develop sudden penetrating force, end up with 'wooden' strength where they are just pushing the target). You will note that Tan Tui has 48+ repetitions of this kind of movement – depending on how you do this set.

I would point out as well, that in general, movements in Shaolin sets were developed with a concern and consideration for the health of the practitioner and for the development of internal energy. Repeating some movements thousands of times - albeit combat effect - can be harmful to the internal energy of the practitioner with dire physical consequences in the long run. These symmetrical movements mitigate some of negative effects of long term practice of more literal techniques. (The extensive use of 'double" weapons in Shaolin serve that same purpose) Unfortunately many sets being practiced today were developed in modern times by people, that had no knowledge of these principles nor of the negative consequences of what they created. This is why by viewing old traditional sets from only a combat perspective, one can misinterpret the movements or end up, unintentionally, modifying the way sets are practiced – with the resulting negative consequences.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Although there are a few direct applications of some of these kind of movements, the main purpose of these symmetrical movements is the cultivation of internal energy and to develop the ability to project energy into a target (generally students who just hit sand bags, etc., to develop sudden penetrating force, end up with 'wooden' strength where they are just pushing the target). You will note that Tan Tui has 48+ repetitions of this kind of movement – depending on how you do this set.

I would point out as well, that in general, movements in Shaolin sets were developed with a concern and consideration for the health of the practitioner and for the development of internal energy. Repeating some movements thousands of times - albeit combat effect - can be harmful to the internal energy of the practitioner with dire physical consequences in the long run. These symmetrical movements mitigate some of negative effects of long term practice of more literal techniques. (The extensive use of 'double" weapons in Shaolin serve that same purpose) Unfortunately many sets being practiced today were developed in modern times by people, that had no knowledge of these principles nor of the negative consequences of what they created. This is why by viewing old traditional sets from only a combat perspective, one can misinterpret the movements or end up, unintentionally, modifying the way sets are practiced – with the resulting negative consequences.

Thi is very true.

Real Shaolin sets are ultimately nei gong sets you practice while meditating and healing your body, mind, and spirit. Self defense is but one use of this "moving yoga" activity.