Iron wire verison question

[sanjuro_ronin]

To the hung ga people out there.

I have seen a few different versions on the Iron Wire, but sequence wise, I noticed that there are at least 2 versions of the beginning sequence.

Now, after the salute, all the versions start off the same, fists at the side, come up and press out with the open hands, palms facing each other , then they close into fists and curl back and here is where I have seen 2 different sequences:
The more popular versions go into the 3 presses to the side with the hung ga distinct hand formation, the other version, Wing Lam's, goes into the "down to the waist, out to the sides, open the hands" and then into the 3 presses.
Which in the popular versions happens AFTER the 3 side presses.

Why?
and does it matter?

[TenTigers]

I am not sure if I quite understand what you're describing, if you post a vid, it might be easier, but I will put forth this: In the beginning, you are bringing the hei from the middle dan tien down to the lower dan tien, sinking the hei and rooting to the earth, before bringing it out to the extremeties into the large heavenly cycle. I was taught several different versions, and of course, I am still learning and developing. This is the method that I follow at present.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Wing Lam version ( yes, not HIS version, b ut the one he teaches):

http://www.wle.com/products/VHG23D.html

And the more "common" version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8zbZjhGdV0

I assume the difference is really not that crucial or important per say, just curious as to why.

[TenTigers]

many people have their own interpetations and there are many variations. If you do a search on youtube, you will see as many versions as there are snowflakes.
The Wire form is a very personal set. The more you practice it, the more things you feel internally, you will emphasize different things, the more it becomes soley your own. There is also what we call.signature moves, or "branding" which has become popular-especially with the advent of DVD's and distance learning. People come out of the woodwork and claim all sorts of lineages, and teachers. This way, a Sifu can always tell if a person learned it from the DVD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

many people have their own interpetations and there are many variations. If you do a search on youtube, you will see as many versions as there are snowflakes.
The Wire form is a very personal set. The more you practice it, the more things you feel internally, you will emphasize different things, the more it becomes soley your own. There is also what we call.signature moves, or "branding" which has become popular-especially with the advent of DVD's and distance learning. People come out of the woodwork and claim all sorts of lineages, and teachers. This way, a Sifu can always tell if a person learned it from the DVD.

Understood and I agree about the "personalization" part, which holds true to almost any form.
And I know that the sequences isn't really that crucial, outside lineage claims of course.
While the forms I have seen have certain "typical" differences, ie: breathing, sounds and tension moves, the sequence of the beginning tends to be the same, execept for the Wing Lam version.
Just a curiosity thing on my part, not being a part of any lineage or claiming to be.
I don't want to sound like I am making a statement over what is "correct" or "true".

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related

you seen this?.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related

you seen this?.

Yep, pretty awesome how open he is.

[Laukarbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related

you seen this?.

Diego,I met this gentleman when I was in HK.Ng sifu is second generation after wong fei hung..his teacher died 1991 and reached the age of 104 !
His teacher was a direkt student of WFH.
Ng Sifu only practises the 3 treasures of Hung Kuen,gung gee,fu hok and tit sin kuen.
He specialised on tit sin,hes 60 years old and hes strong as hell he gave me some very valuable pointers on my tit sin..without changing it...
Our tit sin is also different,actually its the purpose thats important and what u get out of the form...

[diego]

Diego,I met this gentleman when I was in HK.Ng sifu is second generation after wong fei hung..his teacher died 1991 and reached the age of 104 !
His teacher was a direkt student of WFH.
Ng Sifu only practises the 3 treasures of Hung Kuen,gung gee,fu hok and tit sin kuen.
He specialised on tit sin,hes 60 years old and hes strong as hell he gave me some very valuable pointers on my tit sin..without changing it...
Our tit sin is also different,actually its the purpose thats important and what u get out of the form...

Awesome:) If someone from another style wanted to learn the Iron Wire set of Hung Ga but wasn't too interested in spending ten years to learn Hung Ga Fighting technique, would it be realistic to master the Iron Wire?. I've been a smoker for a long time and would like to find that one chi gung that I could practise into old age...have you heard of any old timers taking up the Iron Wire without fight training?.

How was HK?.

[SoCo KungFu]

Awesome:) If someone from another style wanted to learn the Iron Wire set of Hung Ga but wasn't too interested in spending ten years to learn Hung Ga Fighting technique, would it be realistic to master the Iron Wire?. I've been a smoker for a long time and would like to find that one chi gung that I could practise into old age...have you heard of any old timers taking up the Iron Wire without fight training?.

How was HK?.

There's only about 953.48 videos on Iron Wire available. Iron Wire as a conditioning and chi gung, I can't think of anyone that it wouldn't be beneficial for....although I do know of one guy, luckily I wasn't in the ER at the time, but he had a vagal response on the crapper and went into cardiac arrest....so if your heart is good then ok, just don't strain and **** the **** of doom

I haven't really seen any of the vids available for it though to speak on the quality of production.

And if you don't want to go that route you can always try looking for a Hung Gar school and checking out when they may be having a seminar. Even if you just learn it from a vid and then go refine it with a seminar or two. Again yeah its a vid...but in all honesty its the age of technology and...fighter pilots learn crap from vids so yeah...just make sure after you learn it you get the real details from somebody..that's my take.

Honestly its got the chi gung factor that makes it all mystical but its not that advanced...none of those things really are, at least not like say IP. The hung gar school I learn from teaches it pretty early on after gung gee. Sifu said he'd rather teach it early so students would be conditioned well enough for tiger crane and 5 animal/elements and of course fighting. If it wasn't for gung gee being so "foundational" (is that a word) then he'd probably teach it right after Lau gar.

This type of training isn't unique....I know 2 other chi gungs that are similar in nature. Though iron wire does have the super patented hung gar, wong fei hung I AM A TIGER coolness:cool:
Just be sure you wear black when you do it...and feiyue....

[Golden Arms]

There's only about 953.48 videos on Iron Wire available. Iron Wire as a conditioning and chi gung, I can't think of anyone that it wouldn't be beneficial for....although I do know of one guy, luckily I wasn't in the ER at the time, but he had a vagal response on the crapper and went into cardiac arrest....so if your heart is good then ok, just don't strain and **** the **** of doom

I haven't really seen any of the vids available for it though to speak on the quality of production.

And if you don't want to go that route you can always try looking for a Hung Gar school and checking out when they may be having a seminar. Even if you just learn it from a vid and then go refine it with a seminar or two. Again yeah its a vid...but in all honesty its the age of technology and...fighter pilots learn crap from vids so yeah...just make sure after you learn it you get the real details from somebody..that's my take.

Honestly its got the chi gung factor that makes it all mystical but its not that advanced...none of those things really are, at least not like say IP. The hung gar school I learn from teaches it pretty early on after gung gee. Sifu said he'd rather teach it early so students would be conditioned well enough for tiger crane and 5 animal/elements and of course fighting. If it wasn't for gung gee being so "foundational" (is that a word) then he'd probably teach it right after Lau gar.

This type of training isn't unique....I know 2 other chi gungs that are similar in nature. Though iron wire does have the super patented hung gar, wong fei hung I AM A TIGER coolness:cool:
Just be sure you wear black when you do it...and feiyue....

I am going to respectfully disagree with almost all of this post. To each their own though.

[Laukarbo]

Diego,to answer ur question

Iron thread can be taught to non-hung gar practicioner allright..even non-martial artists.Also even if u learn it by yourself it wont harm you but u might just waste ur time and get nothing out of it so under guidance is what i recommend.
HK was good as ever...hehe and i found out that we have dried ****roaches in our dit dar..well it looked like it:D

[diego]

Diego,to answer ur question

Iron thread can be taught to non-hung gar practicioner allright..even non-martial artists.Also even if u learn it by yourself it wont harm you but u might just waste ur time and get nothing out of it so under guidance is what i recommend.
HK was good as ever...hehe and i found out that we have dried ****roaches in our dit dar..well it looked like it:D

eww, I lived in a place with ****roaches once when I was Vegetarian...I found half a roach in my Mashed Potatoes...I don't like killing animals but after that I have no problem stomping on slugs:D

[David Jamieson]

Isometric/Isotonic tension and regulated breathing develops the lik and the jin which takes all that previous training and further solidifies the strength and endurance in the practitioner.

performance of Iron thread is arduous and is long and tiring early in training when done properly.

Old players always have some good advice to share.

in my opinion, results are evident from practice of this set inside of 90 days, but real fruition is something that continues throughout all the time you spend practicing. Its a great set in any iteration when done with mindfulness.

while it may be basic in appearance, there is a lot at play and it's what's under the surface that is very very important for the kungfu development.

This is indeed in my opinion one of the more advanced concepts in sil lum martial arts. It is not wrong to learn it at any time, but it is important to approach it with the correct intention in place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isometric/Isotonic tension and regulated breathing develops the lik and the jin which takes all that previous training and further solidifies the strength and endurance in the practitioner.

performance of Iron thread is arduous and is long and tiring early in training when done properly.

Old players always have some good advice to share.

in my opinion, results are evident from practice of this set inside of 90 days, but real fruition is something that continues throughout all the time you spend practicing. Its a great set in any iteration when done with mindfulness.

while it may be basic in appearance, there is a lot at play and it's what's under the surface that is very very important for the kungfu development.

This is indeed in my opinion one of the more advanced concepts in sil lum martial arts. It is not wrong to learn it at any time, but it is important to approach it with the correct intention in place.

Isokinetic is the term I believe - Constant tension through the full range of motion.

[David Jamieson]

...or simply, 'dynamic tension' is also applicable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

...or simply, 'dynamic tension' is also applicable.

Simply?
What's that? ;)

[SoCo KungFu]

I'm going to agree with most of the points brought up by David Jamieson. It's a great chi gung. My only qualm is with the double standard that goes with these types of things. The thing is this type of training is not unique to TCMA, its not even unique to MA in general.

I don't think anybody here ever had the idea that there wasn't more going on underneath the surface. I didn't think that needed to be said, if that was the impression I gave then that's my bad. But you know what, the same can be said for weight lifting.....and supplementation.......and medicine.....and dieting.....

And I don't think we need to have this so closed, apprehensive mentality towards these things anymore. We live in an age of information and self education. Heck if you can learn to be a nurse or an engineer online then you can learn a chi gung from a video. Its just in searching for quality of production and seeking adequate hands-on experience to follow-up (like say a nurse internship). And nobody says anything to a guy that regulates his dietary intake and supplementation while maintaining above average exercise loads.....why is this different? I'd say there's more at stake internally from screwing up in the "mainstream" fitness practices than in a chi gung.

Although for the sake of compromise, I will say this. That while I do think Iron Wire is more balanced than some of the other chi gung of this type I have done, its should be said that anyone doing this stuff should maintain a balance in their training. I had one experiece where I was gung ho about my "external" chi gung, and I neglected practicing my taiji and doing the wuji and such things to balance my training. I noticed that my skin became very dry and red, and more than that I became very "fire" in my emotional state. Very irritable and such.

But just like somebody that notices they are having an adverse reaction to a medicine I acknowledged the condition and made the correction. Not too much of a big deal really...

Its just funny we can be our own personal chemist but we can't be voodoo doctors....

And look at it this way, you got a boat load of experienced minds to pick on these types of things and getting pointers right here...like David Jamieson....so again why all the apprehension....just be educated about it

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, IW was a natural progression from Sanchin Training and was lucky enough to know people wiling to share it and the DVD's are ok, some better than others, for "reference material".

[diego]

Well for me vancouver's got a huge Chinatown so I think I'ma see if someone will teach me:).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well for me vancouver's got a huge Chinatown so I think I'ma see if someone will teach me:).

Good luck, whatever you do, don't beat up their students, they hate that, trust me.

[ginosifu]

There have been may people over the years that have asked to teach them Iron Wire thru DVD / Video. Learning the "Form" or pattern is easily done thru DVD, however the internal training without correct supervision can be dangerous. Serious side effects and injury are a possibility. Some of the sounds and compressions done inside the body affect blood vessels and organs. Plaque build up in your blod vessels might break off if a very hard compression or tension in that area occurs. Squeezing down and compressing on your organs can cause serious injury to them.

My advise to anyone is: If you want to learn the form.... go ahead and get a dvd. If you want internal power and training... seriously think about finding a good Sifu.

Ginosifu :p

[PM]

tit sin kyun is very difficult to learn even from a good sifu. learn tsk from dvd? absolutely impossible.

[SoCo KungFu]

however the internal training without correct supervision can be dangerous.

I'd like to know the medical evidence supporting this...not saying its not there...but I'm willing to bet there is nothing unique in opposition to any other exercise regimen one may undertake.


Serious side effects and injury are a possibility.

Such as? You know I've heard a lot of stuff from some people about how certain things in TCMA can make some do anything from going blind to turning into a nut job....but I've never seen anyone present any sort of clinical evidence to support some of the crazy things I've heard...and the stuff that is plausible can just as easily be explained by factors associated with any other physical activity.


Some of the sounds and compressions done inside the body affect blood vessels and organs. Plaque build up in your blod vessels might break off if a very hard compression or tension in that area occurs. Squeezing down and compressing on your organs can cause serious injury to them.

I really don't care to get into a discussion on atherosclerosis and even less taking into considerations of plaque rupture and all the other things that can happen...but...
Plaque rupture can be caused by a large number of things from high blood pressure to arterial dissection and aneurysm. And you know what? NONE of this is unique to practice of any chi gung....
These same complications can arise from any strenuous activity. Someone is just as likely to have such a problem from lifting weights, a good swim in the ocean, mowing the lawn...HAVING SEX:eek:

And yet there isn't half the cringe if someone decided to go get a membership at the local fitness club and do some weights and a bit of running on the tread...

And if we're that worried about plaque and CAD, then stop eating all that Gen. Tso's Chicken before ya go train...I mean...I know its good....the general knows his chicken...but sometimes the things we love just don't love us back


My advise to anyone is: If you want to learn the form.... go ahead and get a dvd. If you want internal power and training... seriously think about finding a good Sifu.

Personal instruction is always the surest key to success...but its not the only. And again I find it highly presumptuous that the typical mindframe of TCMA is that someone can study all they want about dieting/nutrition and exercise and basically turn their body into a walking lab experiment...and its safe (and if you're smart is it is)...but somehow people aren't smart enough to figure out a chi gung. And I'm still not convinced its any more dangerous than any other form of exercise if done incorrectly.


tit sin kyun is very difficult to learn even from a good sifu. learn tsk from dvd? absolutely impossible.

Same sentiment....in my opinion these such perspectives come from a long history of stylephobia and preservation of job security on part of the "masters." But people now days are much more educated on health than in all those years before. And if they aren't they have no excuse not to be....all the information they could want is only as far away as their keyboard and mouse...

...you know I used to listen to the same stuff from MA instructors and I took it almost as if the word of god...I didn't know any better. And I'm not knocking Chinese medical thought in the least...in fact I love the idea of TCM. But some of these things.....when I got into medicine (and no I'm not a Ph.d) I started to realize that a lot of this stuff is baloney. If I could think of a couple ways to sum up my opinions on this topic it would be...."ain't much to worry about" and "if this don't get you something else will."

Anyways I've said my piece...I didn't intend to hyjack the thread...I'm thinking hopefully ronin got his answers...I'm mostly just really bored since I'm waiting to heal after my surgery and I don't have anymore vicodin to keep me occupied with bugs and flowers and colors and walls and stuff....

[cjurakpt]

T Serious side effects and injury are a possibility. Some of the sounds and compressions done inside the body affect blood vessels and organs. Plaque build up in your blod vessels might break off if a very hard compression or tension in that area occurs. Squeezing down and compressing on your organs can cause serious injury to them.


what in your personal experience has ever confirmed the above 'warnings"? has anyone you known practiced Iron Wire "incorrectly" and ended up with the health problems you describe and that have been independently correlated by a qualified medical professional? what evidence substantiates the belief that certain sounds effect certain organs? how can you tell if they do or not beyond "feeling it"? provide some solid evidence that so-called plaque build up in blood vessels can break off due to tension or that anyone could possibly put themselves at risk of organ damage by "squeezing down" on them (I mean, most people do exactly that one or more times a day when they have a bowel movement - the concept is known as a Valsalva Maneuver; without valid evidence, it's all just fear-mongering and old wives tales

[cjurakpt]

Same sentiment....in my opinion these such perspectives come from a long history of stylephobia and preservation of job security on part of the "masters."
pretty much hit the nail on the head there - only the properly trained "old masters" know how to correctly teach this stuff and to boot, are the only ones who can "fix" students who have done it wrong (which is interesting considering that the vast majority of traditional CMA teachers were illiterate and uneducated - but somehow knew all about the precise physiological workings of the human organism...)

[cjurakpt]

BTW, to consider why Iron Wire / qigong in general works, from a physiological perspective:

1) deep breathing out to end-range of exhalation: empties out residual lung volume, allows for better oxygenation in general;

2) deep breathing in provides more compression to abdominal viscera, leading to increase movement of venous blood and lymphatic fluid out of the guts, allowing in more of the better oxygenated blood;

3) deep breathing helps to increase parasympathetic nervous system tone, which is the part of the autonomic nervous system that is in charge of "rest / digest" functions in the body;

4) deep breathing decreases sympathetic tone, which gets the body out of fight/flight response, decreasing the immune response, decreasing systemic inflammatory response in the tissues, allowing for better blood flow / metabolic waste product removal

5) deep breathing / slow muscle tension movements build up pressure in the arterial, venous, lymphatic systems; the various quick, explosive movements and vocalizations that follow such build-ups are done to generate negative pressure effect; so it's like clearing a stuck pipe by building up pressure and then reliving that pressure by opening up a small valve somewhere, effectively blowing out gunk from the system; this idea is based both on my personal experience doing this sort of thing, but also based on my experience doing it to other people via osteopathic manual therapy, which has a number of different "lymphatic pump" techniques that require the patient to breath in ways similar to those found in Wire / qigong and provide external manual pressure with rebounding off at specific times to "push" out stuff from the system such as infection or inflammation (sorry, no evidenced based stuff on this, I will freely admit that this is based on highly subjective clinical experience, so it is as much theoretical as anything - but people consistently report feeling much better after these sorts of things, so something appears to be working...)

[TenTigers]

I know of several people, one who has a permanant injury due to improper practice of TSK. No, it hasn't AFAIK been correlated by a medical proffessional, and I am not going to mention any names. AND..you don't have to believe me and go on doing whatever you want. It's your body, have at it.
Yes, the sounds are based upon specific releases of tension, as Chris pointed out. What people fail to recognize is that by placing improper tensions, whether it is at the wrong time, or wrong amount, can be disasterous. The internal organs (picture a piece of raw liver) are under alot of tension. The muscles contract, squeeze, and the packing methods add more pressure, similar to a pneumatic tire. Add into the equation, the twisting movements, and you are literally wringing out the body. Going into this with a lackadasical attitude can cause problems.
TSK is not Sanchin, but there are similarities, I will admit. BUT there is a huge difference between Kyokushin Sanchin, and Okinawan Goju-ryu Sanchin. The breathing, sounds, packing, releases, are very different. These are different still from Fukien Samjien Kuen. It is not a simple jump from Sanchin Kata to TSK. All the rules do NOT apply.
\again, take it for what you want. I am simply putting this out there. But I would instead of simply taking the words of forum posters, who may not even know the set, other than what they see on youtube for all we know. I would seek out a Hung-Ga Sifu, who has been teaching this set for a long time. Decades, not years.

[TenTigers]

oh, and BTW-excellent post, Chris.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know of several people, one who has a permanant injury due to improper practice of TSK. No, it hasn't AFAIK been correlated by a medical proffessional, and I am not going to mention any names. AND..you don't have to believe me and go on doing whatever you want. It's your body, have at it.
Yes, the sounds are based upon specific releases of tension, as Chris pointed out. What people fail to recognize is that by placing improper tensions, whether it is at the wrong time, or wrong amount, can be disasterous. The internal organs (picture a piece of raw liver) are under alot of tension. The muscles contract, squeeze, and the packing methods add more pressure, similar to a pneumatic tire. Add into the equation, the twisting movements, and you are literally wringing out the body. Going into this with a lackadasical attitude can cause problems.
TSK is not Sanchin, but there are similarities, I will admit. BUT there is a huge difference between Kyokushin Sanchin, and Okinawan Goju-ryu Sanchin. The breathing, sounds, packing, releases, are very different. These are different still from Fukien Samjien Kuen. It is not a simple jump from Sanchin Kata to TSK. All the rules do NOT apply.
\again, take it for what you want. I am simply putting this out there. But I would instead of simply taking the words of forum posters, who may not even know the set, other than what they see on youtube for all we know. I would seek out a Hung-Ga Sifu, who has been teaching this set for a long time. Decades, not years.

Excellent point in regards to Sanchin.
There have been some debates in regards to sanchin training for a long time.
The issue of blood pressure spikes, excessive tension, even hemmroids.
I mentioned the "valsava (sp?) effect", it can't be overstated in terms of health issues.
SOme moves in the IW involve holding you breath through the tension and releasing it at the end, issues can arise if holding your breathe under tension for over 8 seconds I think and in somes cases as low as 5 ( 3 seconds be recommended for powerlifters and olympic strength athletes working at maximal levels).
There are issues of "bowel problems" if the tension in the lower abdomen is "misplaced".

I think that the main health issues if incorrect IW and even Sanchin ( sanchin being much shorter has less risk involved when done incorrectly) is the holding of the breathe through tension over a prolonged period of time - people tend to believe that more is better instead of better being better.

IV tend to not have these issuse because there is no tension invloved, or so I am told.

I know that before I started looking into IW I did a LOT of studying about the effects of dynamic tension and such on the human body.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Valsava effect/manuver:

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/reprint/101/4/1230.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver

http://health.discovery.com/centers/sex/sexpedia/valsalva.html

http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/116/4/851

[Sifu at Large]

Personally, I have never really bought into the theories about TSK injuring the unwary practitioner. There are many benefits to the training of this set, and I do agree that learning a lot of the subtle nuances to the set would be near impossible to learn from a DVD, but the idea of mysterious injuries happening as a result of practicing seems a little bit too Superstitious to me.

It may just be that I was taught well and thus never encountered any of the problems people list, so this opinion may not be worth much...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally, I have never really bought into the theories about TSK injuring the unwary practitioner. There are many benefits to the training of this set, and I do agree that learning a lot of the subtle nuances to the set would be near impossible to learn from a DVD, but the idea of mysterious injuries happening as a result of practicing seems a little bit too Superstitious to me.

It may just be that I was taught well and thus never encountered any of the problems people list, so this opinion may not be worth much...

The medical issues of what I posted above are quite correct, outside those I don't know what other issues there could be.

[cjurakpt]

http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/116/4/851

this is a nice one in general, in terms of giving a good straightforward assessment of what happens during a valsalva in regular and congestive heart failure situation; it also demonstrates the relative safety of doing a valsalva, even with cardiac issues; which further calls into question the supposed problems that occur as the result of the breathing / tension and all that stuff during TSK

I think that what happened is this: 100+ years ago, some of the people who practiced TSk and the like died or stroked or fainted or whatever, not because they did it wrong, but because like any population, a certain percentage will have a predisposition for acute cardiac myopathy, or cerebral / aortic aneurysm, blood pressure dysfunction, etc..; so for these people, maybe doing TSk or similar types of training was inappropriate intrinsically, and for some it pushed them over the edge physiologically, and bang, they dead; given the relatively unsophisticated understanding of human physiology at the time, not to mention that most CMA teachers were illiterate / uneducated, they might have thought the training itself was to blame (it's not like they would autopsy a burst cerebral artery); but of course, they didn't want to look bad, so it wasn't that the TSK or similar was the problem, it was that the student did it "wrong" (clever, huh?); this saves face and also damage controls for angry relatives seeking retribution maybe? again, it's all conjecture, but I'm just saying that if you see some guy eat a poorly cooked pig and he dies, and you don't know what trichinosis is yet, you go for the next best available explanation...

BTW, if ANYONE locally on LI has ever had any adverse effects from TSK or the like that still persist, or knows of anyone who has (e.g. - Rik's friend with the "permanent" injury), I would, simply for the sake of my own and anyone else's edification, be willing to evaluate and treat them for free (or donation of whatever they see fit to give), provided it is within the scope of my license to do so, of course; I would be willing to bet that we could see a significant improvement in a very short period of time, provided there are not additional co-morbid issues confounding the matter;

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is a nice one in general, in terms of giving a good straightforward assessment of what happens during a valsalva in regular and congestive heart failure situation; it also demonstrates the relative safety of doing a valsalva, even with cardiac issues; which further calls into question the supposed problems that occur as the result of the breathing / tension and all that stuff during TSK

Safe for the most, but not for all, and that is the issue.
How many young, above average in health athletes have just dropped over and died?
More than most think.


I think that what happened is this: 100+ years ago, some of the people who practiced TSk and the like died or stroked or fainted or whatever, not because they did it wrong, but because like any population, a certain percentage will have a predisposition for acute cardiac myopathy, or cerebral / aortic aneurysm, blood pressure dysfunction, etc..; so for these people, maybe doing TSk or similar types of training was inappropriate intrinsically, and for some it pushed them over the edge physiologically, and bang, they dead; given the relatively unsophisticated understanding of human physiology at the time, not to mention that most CMA teachers were illiterate / uneducated, they might have thought the training itself was to blame (it's not like they would autopsy a burst cerebral artery); but of course, they didn't want to look bad, so it wasn't that the TSK or similar was the problem, it was that the student did it "wrong" (clever, huh?); this saves face and also damage controls for angry relatives seeking retribution maybe? again, it's all conjecture, but I'm just saying that if you see some guy eat a poorly cooked pig and he dies, and you don't know what trichinosis is yet, you go for the next best available explanation...

A valid theory, the issue is also one of economics, people have always thought that more is better, could be correct to think the training was the culbrit of they knew the student/master tended to overdue it.


BTW, if ANYONE locally on LI has ever had any adverse effects from TSK or the like that still persist, or knows of anyone who has (e.g. - Rik's friend with the "permanent" injury), I would, simply for the sake of my own and anyone else's edification, be willing to evaluate and treat them for free (or donation of whatever they see fit to give), provided it is within the scope of my license to do so, of course; I would be willing to bet that we could see a significant improvement in a very short period of time, provided there are not additional co-morbid issues confounding the matter;

Awesome offer, any takers?

[SoCo KungFu]

Safe for the most, but not for all, and that is the issue.
How many young, above average in health athletes have just dropped over and died?
More than most think.


This is true. But the same can be said for any form of exercise.

And are the risks associated with perfomance of TSK things which are disproportionately greater than in other forms of physical exertion?

My other question is...those that have received injury...what other factors were present in addition to TSK? What other factors could have lead to the injury? And in light of that, is it really fit to say the TSK was the cause of such injury? Correlative evidence is not necessarily proving of cause.

Or another way of looking at it...if to take your statement, "How many young, above average in health athletes have just dropped over and died?" Of those athletes, how many can be attributed to effects which can also be associated with performance of TSK? And of those which can, how many actually played practice of TSK? Now while I don't have numbers, I'm willing to bet in the whole scale that a relatively small amount actually did kung fu, let alone Hung Gar and/or knew TSK. And again even then other factors would have to ruled out as its not uncommon for MA, esp. practitioners of Hung Gar a strength demanding form of kung fu, to participate in other althletic practices such as weight lifting.

Oh and as another side note...that same "wringing out of your body" isn't just an Iron Wire thing. I remember in when I worked in a helicopter unit, we'd have to haul around these 130lbs ammo cans for the miniguns. Sometimes loading up to 20-25 cans. As much as you tried to maintain proper posture during lifts (and although its not that much weight, it wears you out after a while) it wasn't always possible especially as space fills and mobility impaired. Weird twisting movements happen. Sometimes people would get hurt if they weren't careful. I never had a problem with it. Though one day we were packing a 350lbs crate for deployment and I had what would generally be considered a safe posture in addition to the fact there were four people involved in the lift. And yet I still jacked the heck out of my back when the guy opposite me pulled unexpectedly and through me off. My point being that sometimes things just happen regardless of safety involved. But would my story stop all the people all over the world from doing dead lifts? Whose to say they are performing them correctly? And why does Iron Wire have a stigma that more conventional means do not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or another way of looking at it...if to take your statement, "How many young, above average in health athletes have just dropped over and died?" Of those athletes, how many can be attributed to effects which can also be associated with performance of TSK? And of those which can, how many actually played practice of TSK? Now while I don't have numbers, I'm willing to bet in the whole scale that a relatively small amount actually did kung fu, let alone Hung Gar and/or knew TSK. And again even then other factors would have to ruled out as its not uncommon for MA, esp. practitioners of Hung Gar a strength demanding form of kung fu, to participate in other althletic practices such as weight lifting.

Exertion is a ***** !
People may have congenitive issues that they are unaware of untill too late, remember Reggie Lewis of the Boston Celtics?
In strength training when you are pushing serious weight (95% or your max and up) it is not uncommon to hold your breath and strain against the weight in a very unhealthy way, and there are far more powerlifters and olympic lifters than IW guys, and yet the number of SERIOUS injuries from that type of exertion is pretty low, though it is high enough that many coaches caution against it.
As for non-serious injuries, there are many, including severe headaches, nose bleeds, bowel issues, blackouts and more.

[cjurakpt]

so, basically what we seem to be all getting at is this:
a) in a given population, there will always be a percentage of individuals who are unbeknownst to them have latent life threatening conditions (e.g. - undiagnosed cerebral or aortic aneurysm; inguinal / hiatal hernia) that could be triggered by certain types of exercises that involve valsalva-like activities; for these people, something like TSK could be inherently fatal, regardless of how they practice it

b) in the absence of predisposing factors, the likelihood of doing serious internal (organ) damage while doing TSK is probably negligible (if not impossible), and that in most cases injuries sustained from this practice are musculoskeletal (which can still suck!) or temporary irritations of the autonomic nervous system

c) despite the lack of verifiable causation of TSK being at the root of any serious injuries, old time TCMA teachers were historically quick to jump on the "this is too dangerous to learn on your own" bandwagon due to a) lack of education; b) economic self-interest;

d) despite the lack of data, modern day TCMA sifu follow the same dictum due to a) lack of education; b) mindless adherence to what they were told by their teachers; c) they are socially marginalized individuals to begin with and compensate for this deficit by portraying themselves as "in the know" about some esoteric secret practice that defies their immediate cultural context and so no one can really call them on it (I'm a big believer in "c" myself...)

'nuff said...

[ginosifu]

SoCo KungFu and Cjurakpt:

I do not have any scientific proof for any of the Kung Fu or Chi Gung I do.

However, my lineage of teachers are no joke and their reputation is solid. I pass on the knowledge as it was passed on to me. The same for my teacher and his teacher and so on and so on for a couple hundred years. The warnings they give must have some validty if after hundreds of years of developing and people sacrificing themselves to find out what works and what does not.

SoCo and Cjurakpt, just because you guys can not prove IW injurys with science does not make it wrong. If master after master state that there are inherint injurys from improper training, I would take there may be some truth to their claims. I persinally have seen people peeing blood from improper training.

If you assume that because weightlifters and bodybuilders (and sexual activity) grunt and compress and sqeeze their body parts, that it is the same as IW, it's not. Iron Wire has specific movements combined with sounds and compressions that target different areas and have different affects on the body.

I know you guys need proof. From that I can see that you do not train with Traditional Sifu.

Good Luck with your quest for IW Sanjuro Ronin

ginosifu :p

[SoCo KungFu]

cjurakpt you pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter. I think in B while yes they do suck, it is pretty much a risk of any exercise program anyways. I think in regards to TCMA, C is the culprit at hand.

Funny thing, we aren't the only ones having this conversation it seems...I stumbled across this today while at work. I'd be interested in what your opinion is on the topic...

http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1107

The work of Haykowsky et al. (2003) suggests that elevated vascular pressure is only dangerous to the delicate vascular walls of the brain if intracranial pressures remain low, and thus transmural pressure is high. Essentially, if the pressure surrounding the vessel increases and pushes back against the vessel wall, the blood pressure within the vessel will not be transmitted across to the cranial tissue, meaning that transmural pressure is low. The measure of the difference in pressures between vascular pressure and intracranial pressure should therefore be a better indicator of the stress the vessel walls are under and thus be a better indicator of the danger of cerebrovascular accident. Haykowsky et al, (2003) found that performing the Valsalva maneuver decreased the pressure differences across the cerebrovascular wall, theoretically decreasing the risk of aneurysm or hemorrhage. This finding corroborated the much earlier and ignored work of Hamilton et al. (1944). These studies strongly suggest that performing a heavy lift without the Valsalva maneuver places individuals at greater risk of CVA than performing the same lift with the Valsalva maneuver. This is directly contrary to the conventional wisdom.

The mechanism through which the Valsalva maneuver raises intracranial pressure is theorized as follows: (1)The Valsalva maneuver directly increases thoracic pressure by attempting to force air through the closed glottis. (2)This elevated thoracic pressure is transferred to the cerebrospinal fluid in much the same way that thoracic pressure increases abdominal pressure. Because the cerebrospinal fluid surrounding the spinal cord is continuous with fluid of the subdural space in the skull, intracranial pressure also rises. The rapid nature of fluid pressure transfer within this system means that arterial pressure and intracranial pressure rise at the same rate, yielding a balanced transmural pressure from the beginning to the end of the lift. Thus the lifter is protected throughout the entire lift so long as the Valsalva maneuver is performed.

Just thought it was interesting that a similar conversation was going on there...
Though the quoter didn't address the issue of the vagal response in a prolonged valsalva, more the issue of the initial BP spike. I'm sort of on the fence still simply because I haven't personally held a prolonged valsalva on a lift. But then I'm not in the powerlifter category, just lifting to supplement my MA. At first I thought it could be dependent on resistance. As more weight is added, the safer method is shorter valsalva. Though the speaker of this quote argues otherwise. In the same mind a lesser resistance, such as Iron Wire which is basically body weight as things such as wrist weights would be I would think negligible, would not pose the same risks with a prolonged valsalva?

All I can speak in my personal experience is from chi gung and diving. In diving valsalva is used frequently to adjust to the pressure. Neither in SCUBA nor in free diving (which do to constantly resurfacing for air and diving again) I valsalva many more times. Though I've personally never free dived (dove?) deeper than about 50 feet or so. But I've never personally experienced lightheaded, eye spots or any of the other symptoms of cerebral hypoxia. I'm sure it could happen, just that I've never encountered it...not that such means much...

That brings up another issue though of whether the underwater environment with its associated pressure changes play any role in the effects of valsalva. I've honestly never looked much into it since I've never personally had much of an issue with it nor other complications associated with diving. Although it is also arguable that the colder temperature would increase the susceptibility to the effects...

[cjurakpt]

I do not have any scientific proof for any of the Kung Fu or Chi Gung I do.
that's too bad; I have plenty of scientific "proof" for mine (of course, I also spent about 10 years researching it...)


However, my lineage of teachers are no joke and their reputation is solid.
according to who? the people who practice your particular system, no doubt...(ok, granted Chang Tung Cheng has quite a credible rep)


I pass on the knowledge as it was passed on to me. The same for my teacher and his teacher and so on and so on for a couple hundred years.
so basically it's you and a bunch of other people drinking the dregs of someone else's meal (go read some basic Ch'an texts if you don't get the allusion)


The warnings they give must have some validty if after hundreds of years of developing and people sacrificing themselves to find out what works and what does not.
LOL - the worst rationale ever: "if that's the way it's been done for this long, then it must be right"; if that's your basis for credibility, nothing I can say will be of any use changing your mind; trust me, no one sacrificed themselves to find out if something worked: people die for far less altruistic reasons (usually because they screwed up somewhere in their planning)


SoCo and Cjurakpt, just because you guys can not prove IW injurys with science does not make it wrong.
no, see, you can prove IW injuries with "science", but only if you can actually examine the people who were injured; have or anyone you know ever done that? and if so, did you or they know what to look for?


If master after master state that there are inherint injurys from improper training, I would take there may be some truth to their claims.
"some truth" - sure, there may be some truth - but how are you going to discern what is truth and what isn't?


I persinally have seen people peeing blood from improper training.
hematauria is not uncommon and actually not all that serious in many cases, not to mention self-limiting
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/blood_in_the_urine/article_em.htm


If you assume that because weightlifters and bodybuilders (and sexual activity) grunt and compress and sqeeze their body parts, that it is the same as IW, it's not. Iron Wire has specific movements combined with sounds and compressions that target different areas and have different affects on the body.
the specific moves may differ, but the underlying principles are the same in terms of putting the body under increased tension and pressure


I know you guys need proof.
actually, so did you at one point, it just appears that that your standards were not nearly as exacting or rigorous, and were probably informed by your emotional attachment to you lineage and art (big mistake according to Buddha, BTW); what's more, your livelihood appears to be based on this perspective as well, so that's yet another obstacle to clarity


From that I can see that you do not train with Traditional Sifu.
then you are blind, because I trained with several (including, hi, Chan Tai San...) and have been with a very "traditional" (although I have some real issues about the use of that word in terms of it being a poorly defined entity at best) sifu for the last 13 years (http://qigongtherapy.com/ - scroll down to the pic on the lower right - I'm the guy to his immediate left); and guess what: I articulate to him the same perspective as I do here all the time; and he constantly encourages me to keep questioning in the same manner (see, he's a traditional Taoist); so spare me the lame attempts to play the "traditional" card; you want to go "classical" on this stuff? ok, we can dance that, but TBH that's not really what interests me at this point at all

[cjurakpt]

cjurakpt I'd be interested in what your opinion is on the topic...
very cool - when I've had some time to digest it, I'll respond

[SoCo KungFu]

ginosifu I'm not calling into question reputation of your system nor its members. I'm simply questioning a commonly held belief in regards to an aspect of TCMA, a pivotal aspect at that to southern kung fu. A belief which I hold to be flawed. That is all.

As far as medical proof is concerned...I have to look at things with objective mind. Despite my attachment to TCMA, MA in general and the fact that I am truly a fan of TCM as well. Though I'm not trained in TCM, rather more western medical approach, though I'm just scratching the tip so to speak there as well...but that's the point of discussion.

The issue is that with things involved in TCM and along those lines TCMA...there is this desire on some part to be accepted by the western "mainstream" medical professional. This desire for validity isn't necessarily negative. But there is a double standard at play. If the ideals of TCM are to be held to validity by the "mainstream" then they must prove such validity by the accepted standards of research. However on the part of some members of TCMA, some with and some without true knowledge of TCM, there is a certain disdain (I can't think of the word I want right now...its late) for the idea that they must "prove" the validity of TCM and in line...aspects of TCMA. But the truth is...you have to have real verifiable evidence. The funny thing is, those that truly are in the know on TCM, are very open to the scrutiny of their art...and it is an art. Its the MA guys that have the hard time with it it seems.

And again I'm not saying injury cannot occur from something such as IW...I'm questioning whether it is truly any more dangerous than more widely used methods of physical training..or even physical activity at all. I don't think it is. In fact I'm leaning to it being more safe, due to the fact that the intensity is entire up to the one in practice as there is no weight involved. It is all up to how hard you so choose to tense throughout the postures. And...this is an important and....the injuries that do occur in practice of IW...are they any different than what to expect in other forms of training? More severe?

As to my sifu being traditional...I can only say this...
I do not claim to reflect the opinions of my sifu. I think on my own with my own experiences. I make mistakes...but sometimes....just sometimes I'm right too. My sifu however have always encouraged me to seek truth in not just my MA, but anything I choose to take on. They have always welcomed a difference in opinion, be it wrong or in some cases well founded. That is part of growing. And it took me a long time to get to this point. There was a time when if someone was considered sifu, I wouldn't think of questioning them about MA in general....let alone even something regarding their own kung fu. That's not to say I'm disrespectful...I'll always give you the benefit of a doubt. But lets just say, after training in some good places, some not so good places....in America and in Japan...I've found my place in caution. Before I would have never considered my experience enough to speak openly on such a topic. But I guess after getting up to my neck in BS, telling a couple First Sergeants where they could stick it and a few more MA what I thought of them. I'm finally able to speak my mind and now that I have that, don't expect me to shut up :)

As to my sifu...you've probably never heard of them.

My mantis sifu (where I started my training in TCMA) is Eric Hunstad. He taught San Bao Pai kung fu. He himself trained under Sigung Thomas Turquotte. Who in his training studied under a number of people, more than I know.. I do know he trained directly under Daniel Pai and later P. Chan. Both Sigung Turquotte and Sifu Hunstad are licensed TCM as well. Again I do not speak for them...I speak for myself.

My Hung Gar sifu is here...http://www.hasayfu.com
I assure you he is very traditional. Traditional by the mean that everyday I trained we'd be sparring. Either with him or with students he had stay late to work with me (due to the long drive I had private class after normal hours). We'd do conditioning, sparring, and maybe 2 days a month forms. And I don't think you would try to call into question the men he trained under. Interestingly...one of the men just happens to be in your lineage tree as well. Now again...I do not speak for the opinions of my sifu. Nor can I say that he speaks for his. In the short time I've trained under him...there have been more than one occasion on which I have held opinions in conflict with either my sifu or my fellow classmates. Its nothing new...I think they expect it from me. I will say in regards to TSK, I'll give you one such occasion I do so...in this very thread I have stated that the exercise of TSK is not that advanced. In contrast the principle as cjurakpt also pointed out...the principle is common to physical training. Now on my sifu's site...he states the TSK is the most advanced form in Hung Gar. But I will also say that in his words to me, his goal is to have students practicing TSK by the third year of training. There was no distinction between new students or those with experience. By the third year they should have it. The rationale? Get the conditioning done early. Or else you technique wont mean a thing. I still think even that's being generous. In my opinion by about six months you ought to have enough conditioning and BASIC technique in line to begin minor competition. And as to his experience...well other than his years in Hung Gar...growing up in Harlem and serving in the army enough?

As for me...I'm working on more "mainstream" means on my conditioning. I've recently incorporated Crossfit (yeah I'm slow on the ball) to add more to that end as well as my current objectives in Gracie JJ. Which as I have found here, my cardio is ****. Its f'n hard to breath with someone on top of you driving their elbow into your throat. Oh snap you know what...BJJ just might be a constant valsalva :D Ok crappy joke...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ginosifu:

Thanks for your views and that of your teachers.

I have come to realizes that, the human body is uniform, it is what it is, always.
The exertion of a powerlifter or olympic lifter may be "different", but the process is the same, much like the way we build cardio, it is extremely sport/activity specific, but the process and underlining issues are the same.

I have done some research on the voice/tone thing too, I will see if I can post it also.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds and Internal Organs:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5993393-description.html

http://books.google.ca/books?id=7ElPZbyak8sC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=tone+resonance+internal+organs&source=web&ots=ZtgFaDnDw7&sig=qatS3_A0xiMeuwzOWpgcSxZ8pvs&hl=en

http://www.fitzmauricevoice.com/zeamiarticle.htm

More applicable:

http://pjentoft.com/Sound-and_toning.html

http://www.lightconnection.us/Archive/apr05_article1.htm

[Golden Arms]

I don't know of a way to state this that risks sounding impolite, so please take my word that I don't mean this in that fashion:

The questions you guys are asking, and the arguments you bring up, in some ways illustrate your level of understanding. If you practice this particular set and the framework for it, over a long time, and get into what all you can and are doing with it (although I cannot suppose all do it the same or to the same level, the potential is still there if you learn it correctly), you would not be bringing up the same questions or arguments.

This stuff is not the same as most Chi/Hei Gung, and I would encourage you to, if nothing else, at least consider that many things have at least a seed of truth to them. When you are doing some of this work, regularly, over several years, and can feel what you are doing, and where it can head, it is pretty easy to see how it could do many of the things mentioned, as well as several not mentioned.

For one, playing with any system of the body that for most people, is not under conscious control (the function or rate of the heart for instance), you get into a realm where you can throw things off balance, or put bad habits into muscle memory/nervous memory and then not have a good method for getting them back out.

It is good to question, and get outside the box, but it is pretty important to understand what is in the box in the first place.

To each their own though, I personally hesitate to talk as an authority on something I know of, but don't necessarily know to a deep level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your point is well made, though I am not sure if you are insinuating that one shouldn't ask questions.
Every facet of what we do physically should be questioned, that's how we improve.
If people didn't question and research physical activity, we would never progress.

Fact is, and I hope I am not sounding impolite, everything we do physically is in the realm of physical science.

[Golden Arms]

I agree that we should question. The rules of thumb I follow if possible are: "don't change anything unless you understand why it is the way it is" and "remember how you originally learned it, so that if you realize you changed it and didn't fully understand, you can go back".

In Hung Gar, there is not much I end up changing, at least in the way it is passed to me. The practice is generally a seed, and if you follow the guidelines, it grows correctly on its own. Like a tree, you can not control what shape it will take, but you can influence some of the factors, both for good or bad, and you can also kill the seed if you are not careful.

(Tangent)On the subject of science, science is not an exact science. On the grand and also the microcosmic scale, science cannot even currently explain what we are made of, why gravity works, how the universe exists, etc. Until fairly recently for example, the age of the earth was determined to be possibly older than that of the universe, but nobody could explain why. It is as sound a method as we have, but you also cannot accurately describe that which you do not have all the data on. Just because we perceive in 3 dimensions for example (possibly 4), does that mean our universe is made up of the same, and if not, are we just describing things as best we can with what senses we have?

Same thing applies in this discussion. "You can control something if you can feel it in your body" but also "you can barely control something you barely feel" and you can make decisions in your fledgling stages that make no sense when you know more, just like MA newbies often make decisions or observations about styles before they have the meat and potatoes of the style internalized.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree that we should question. The rules of thumb I follow if possible are: "don't change anything unless you understand why it is the way it is" and "remember how you originally learned it, so that if you realize you changed it and didn't fully understand, you can go back".

I don't recall anyone saying anythign about changing...


(Tangent)On the subject of science, science is not an exact science. On the grand and also the microcosmic scale, science cannot even currently explain what we are made of, why gravity works, how the universe exists, etc. Until fairly recently for example, the age of the earth was determined to be possibly older than that of the universe, but nobody could explain why. It is as sound a method as we have, but you also cannot accurately describe that which you do not have all the data on. Just because we perceive in 3 dimensions for example (possibly 4), does that mean our universe is made up of the same, and if not, are we just describing things as best we can with what senses we have?

You'd be surprised what science has proven, must stuff that adds validity to many of the standard kung fu practises, including IW, even if not for the same reasons the ancients thought.

[Golden Arms]

I am big on research, and not in any way against science. My point (which wasn't really directed at you SR) was more that if you are going to try and make assumptions or decisions on a subject, you may want to get to a pretty deep level of personal practice and familiarity with it before doing so. It is a natural course we all follow as we learn something, but being aware of it can save us from getting in our own way.

The change I was referring to, was comparing it to weight lifting, and other activities, when it only overlaps on a partial scale with them. It also potentially overlaps with activities contained in various meditative practices, reprogramming of various systems of the body, mindsets, etc. not counting the things I have yet to come across.

Again, the questions and views often illustrate where on the path the individuals are likely to be. Hopefully we can all keep at the practice, and be open to our views changing.

[cjurakpt]

The questions you guys are asking, and the arguments you bring up, in some ways illustrate your level of understanding. If you practice this particular set and the framework for it, over a long time, and get into what all you can and are doing with it (although I cannot suppose all do it the same or to the same level, the potential is still there if you learn it correctly), you would not be bringing up the same questions or arguments.
well, I spent about 10 yeas doing pretty in depth traditional Taoist practice, including Macro/micro orbit opening, classical yi jin jing, a good amount of monastary-based Ch'an work and even a bit of Zhuen Ti practice (bascially a combination of vajrayana and Pure Land) before I really started questioning things from a relatively more objective stand point; I have had some...interesting experiences that Ithink most people would have taken and ran with as proof positive of "mystical" energies and the like, experiences that in some ways fit the bill in terms of what the "classics" say would happen and other things that didn't fit into it at all; at the end of the day, m choice was to consider all this experience from one simple stand point: what is really going on? it was basically a choice between moving fully into a Taoist perspective or a Ch'an perspective; (Taoism is like "it's all good"; Ch'an is like "it's all BS", or something like that, LOL)



This stuff is not the same as most Chi/Hei Gung, and I would encourage you to, if nothing else, at least consider that many things have at least a seed of truth to them. When you are doing some of this work, regularly, over several years, and can feel what you are doing, and where it can head, it is pretty easy to see how it could do many of the things mentioned, as well as several not mentioned.
indeed; when Micro-orbit opened up, THAT was a fun few months; let's say I really got into the metaphor describing what my autonomic nervous system was going through...


For one, playing with any system of the body that for most people, is not under conscious control (the function or rate of the heart for instance), you get into a realm where you can throw things off balance, or put bad habits into muscle memory/nervous memory and then not have a good method for getting them back out.
I certainly agree about this; but again, the practice of "controling" the autonomic NS is nothing unique to qigong: yogic, sufi and other practices do this in various ways; if you try this sort of stuff and don't konow what you are doing, you can certainly have some untoward effects; my point is that, I think it's better to describe ths process concretely than it is to do so metaphorically, because then there is less of a chance you will flip out wondering what the heck happened when you feel your pelvic floor turn into a ball of bright white light and dissapear...


It is good to question, and get outside the box, but it is pretty important to understand what is in the box in the first place.
more importantly, understand the box: whereas these days we have a highly sophisticated and complex understanding of anatomy and physiology, back then, they didn't, so it was pretty much a set of metaphorical descriptors; if you don't know about the existence of the hypogastric plexus and how it relates to the parasympathetic nervous system, and what can happen to it when the cognitive mind gets out of the way of autonomic system's inherent drive to regulate homeostasis, then you do the next best thing, which is to describe the area as a cauldron in which you cook the magic pill of health...


To each their own though, I personally hesitate to talk as an authority on something I know of, but don't necessarily know to a deep level.
ok, but one can speak plainly regarding one's own level without appearing pedantic


(Tangent)On the subject of science, science is not an exact science. On the grand and also the microcosmic scale, science cannot even currently explain what we are made of, why gravity works, how the universe exists, etc. Until fairly recently for example, the age of the earth was determined to be possibly older than that of the universe, but nobody could explain why. It is as sound a method as we have, but you also cannot accurately describe that which you do not have all the data on. Just because we perceive in 3 dimensions for example (possibly 4), does that mean our universe is made up of the same, and if not, are we just describing things as best we can with what senses we have?
well, i'd suggest that science is exact, or at least exacting, it's just incomplete in terms of what it is currently able to describe; in other words, in terms of the rules it follows intrinsically: observe --> theory --> test theory --> adjust theory --> retest --> rinse, repeat and so on (of course, that's the abstract - in reality it doesn't always work out that nicely...); as far as not being able to explain what we are made of: um, how far down in scale do you need to go? I mean, in the last hundred years we have gone from largely clueless even on the macro level to understanding the make-up of "reality" on a sub-atomic level - and people are still going; as for how the universe exists, things like string theory, 'brane theory, etc., while problematic in various ways, are indicative of a range of thinking that is looking at higher numbers of dimensions beyond what we typically perceive in a relative systematic way; the point being is that science attempts to be descriptive based on as direct a degree of observation as possible



Same thing applies in this discussion. "You can control something if you can feel it in your body" but also "you can barely control something you barely feel" and you can make decisions in your fledgling stages that make no sense when you know more, just like MA newbies often make decisions or observations about styles before they have the meat and potatoes of the style internalized.
of course - which is why something like standing practice is useful: when i first started, I'd do 30 min to one hour at a time, and it would typially take about 20 min to start feeling "stuff" and when it would stop, there was no getting it back; now I can do it and "activate' the same thing immediately in standing, sitting or lying down, and ride that as long as I like;


I am big on research, and not in any way against science. My point (which wasn't really directed at you SR) was more that if you are going to try and make assumptions or decisions on a subject, you may want to get to a pretty deep level of personal practice and familiarity with it before doing so. It is a natural course we all follow as we learn something, but being aware of it can save us from getting in our own way.
agreed - I personally wouldn't be able to say any of what I say without having first had a subjective personal experience of it; it was only out of accepting it fully that my "great doubt" began to arise...


The change I was referring to, was comparing it to weight lifting, and other activities, when it only overlaps on a partial scale with them. It also potentially overlaps with activities contained in various meditative practices, reprogramming of various systems of the body, mindsets, etc. not counting the things I have yet to come across.
you can cretainly "reprogram" your body; my personal experience, by way of example, is when I have a cold, I am able to "kick start" a systemic lymphatic purge: it involves allowing the breath to spontaneously manifest (which can produce a wide range of autoregulated breathing patterns occuring in different ways); elevating core temp (sweats and blankets help) and self - oscillating the legs / feet / torso for varying periods of time, paying attention to the changes in the system that tell me to change the parameters (frequency, amplitude, duration) of the oscillations and also the location; typically when i do this, colds that would normally hang around for 4 to 5 days are gone in about 2 or 3; the most important thing to do in this process is to stay aware of what is happening, but non-judgementally, not dwelling on what had occured and not projecting on what will occur;


Again, the questions and views often illustrate where on the path the individuals are likely to be. Hopefully we can all keep at the practice, and be open to our views changing.
this is the hallmark definition of philosophical skepticism, to which I strongly subscribe: provide me with sound evidence that contradicts my currently held beliefs, and I will have no problem changing those beliefs

[Golden Arms]

Cjurakpt,

That was a great post. Sounds like you and I would get along in our approaches. I literally could not have written it as clearly as you did, let alone better.

On a side note, something that reading that has me thinking aloud. Does it always matter what is really happening? If an esoteric visualization of some sort produces the favorable conditions for the seeds of practice to grow strong, then does it matter if it was not what was really happening? I tend to see it as pretty genius that these people of days gone by figured this stuff out, especially considering their limited tools and ways of documenting things. The level of mindfulness that would have allowed this to take place is pretty impressive from my standpoint.

[SoCo KungFu]

So I was thinking today about the idea of sound resonance and its effects on the body. I did some searching and found some things I want to study over a bit. Specifically I have some questions in mind.

I believe that there is benefit to be had from the effects of sound and vibration on the body. With that thought in mind I would like to know however what the limits are on such.

1) If there is a beneficial effect, is there also a harmful? Unfortunately everything I've found so far is simply from the standpoint of proposing all the wonderful benefits of the practice. And mostly new-age medicine stuff.
--So is there a harmful effect?

2) If there is a harmful effect, what is the associated cause?

3) If there is a harmful effect, at what point is it reached?

4) Given these, what other ways may we in our daily lives be placed in position to receive such hazards?

From a personal example:
I used to be in a helicopter unit. Helicopters generate a great amount of noise and vibration.
From this scenario my answer to #1 would be yes.

2) The associated cause is the effects of the noise level (decibels) and the associated length of time in which exposure takes place.

3) A simple chart I just googled in like 2.2 seconds illustrating dB range is here:
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/disorders/noise.htm

Noise Levels

Both the amount of noise and the length of time you are exposed to the noise determine its ability to damage your hearing. Noise levels are measured in decibels (dB). The higher the decibel level, the louder the noise. Sounds louder than 80 decibels are considered potentially hazardous. The noise chart below gives an idea of average decibel levels for everyday sounds around you.
Painful

150 dB = rock music peak

140 dB = firearms, air raid siren, jet engine

130 dB = jackhammer

120 dB = jet plane take-off, amplified rock music at 4-6 ft., car stereo, band practice

Extremely Loud

110 dB = rock music, model airplane

106 dB = timpani and bass drum rolls

100 dB = snowmobile, chain saw, pneumatic drill

90 dB = lawnmower, shop tools, truck traffic, subway

Very Loud

80 dB = alarm clock, busy street

70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner

60 dB = conversation, dishwasher

Moderate

50 dB = moderate rainfall

40 dB = quiet room

Faint

30 dB = whisper, quiet library

4) So what ways do we encounter these hazards? The chart illustrates examples.

Ok so that's something in work with the ear but we all know that noise and vibrations can harm the ear. I'm wanting to know about other areas. Most of what I found is involving again the ears and also extremities...mainly the arms and hands in association with various power tools and equipment. Tomorrow at work I'm going to try and get my hands on the OSHA guide as well. What ways can it harm organs?

What levels are required? I've found a couple things but I need to look through them. I also found another study that showed certain frequency aided hormone secretion which actually increased physical output of the subjects....unfortunately though as much as I would like to go through it, I don't think I have the knowledge in endocrinology to understand half of what they are saying.

Like I said I really am interested in once these limits are established, what levels become harmful? And what ways do we encounter them? Things like Iron Wire? Construction equipment? Simple power tools? Sitting too close to the stereo? Oh I'd really like to see comparison of the effects of something like IW with something almost all of us do everyday, longer than we probably care to.....driving our cars!

[cjurakpt]

ginosifu I'm not calling into question reputation of your system nor its members. I'm simply questioning a commonly held belief in regards to an aspect of TCMA, a pivotal aspect at that to southern kung fu. A belief which I hold to be flawed. That is all.
exactly; well put


The issue is that with things involved in TCM and along those lines TCMA...there is this desire on some part to be accepted by the western "mainstream" medical professional. This desire for validity isn't necessarily negative. But there is a double standard at play. If the ideals of TCM are to be held to validity by the "mainstream" then they must prove such validity by the accepted standards of research. However on the part of some members of TCMA, some with and some without true knowledge of TCM, there is a certain disdain (I can't think of the word I want right now...its late) for the idea that they must "prove" the validity of TCM and in line...aspects of TCMA. But the truth is...you have to have real verifiable evidence. The funny thing is, those that truly are in the know on TCM, are very open to the scrutiny of their art...and it is an art. Its the MA guys that have the hard time with it it seems.
precisely: on the one hand, TCM wants to be legitamized by so-called western medicine; at the same time, there is still this attitude amongst some, especially when some aspect of TCM is called into doubt that "western" science, for all its sophistication, somehow inherently lacks the capacity to completely encompass TCm, because the former is inherently reductionist while the latter is inherently "holistic"; this is, of course, silly: allopathic medicine is neither reductionist nor holistic intrinsically, it's how you practice it; furthermore, it is entirely possible to describe qigong practice from a contemporary anatomical/physiological/biomechanical perspective: and to do so successfully does not diminish it, it strengthens it, and also helps prevent individuals w/no idea what is going on in either system from defrauding people by reverting to terms like "qi" and what not when they have no idea what that means in terms of classical Taoist perspective either, but figure that the general public doesn't have the capacity to call them on it;


As to my sifu being traditional...I can only say this...
I do not claim to reflect the opinions of my sifu. I think on my own with my own experiences. I make mistakes...but sometimes....just sometimes I'm right too. My sifu however have always encouraged me to seek truth in not just my MA, but anything I choose to take on. They have always welcomed a difference in opinion, be it wrong or in some cases well founded. That is part of growing. And it took me a long time to get to this point. There was a time when if someone was considered sifu, I wouldn't think of questioning them about MA in general....let alone even something regarding their own kung fu. That's not to say I'm disrespectful...I'll always give you the benefit of a doubt. But lets just say, after training in some good places, some not so good places....in America and in Japan...I've found my place in caution. Before I would have never considered my experience enough to speak openly on such a topic. But I guess after getting up to my neck in BS, telling a couple First Sergeants where they could stick it and a few more MA what I thought of them. I'm finally able to speak my mind and now that I have that, don't expect me to shut up :)
are you me? I hear you: at one point I didn't dare question anything any of my teachers said; w/my current sifu though, he always encouraged me as an individual; one day, after ~10+ years with him, I told him straight out, "I don't believe a single thing you've ever told me"; he smiled and was like, "good, now we are getting somewhere"; the sub-text is that, rather than believe what he told me in and of itself, I should take what he tells me, and go out and test it rigorously by any means at my disposal

[cjurakpt]

That was a great post. Sounds like you and I would get along in our approaches. I literally could not have written it as clearly as you did, let alone better.
I like to think that my writing tends to reflect the understanding of the person with whom I am corresponding, so intelligent posts make me have to try to rise to the same level...


On a side note, something that reading that has me thinking aloud. Does it always matter what is really happening?If an esoteric visualization of some sort produces the favorable conditions for the seeds of practice to grow strong, then does it matter if it was not what was really happening?
IMHO, absolutely; because, ultimately, i think that the experience itself should be either totally forgotten or at the very least remembered and pretty much ignored; I'll elaborate: if you have some sort of esoteric vision, while at the time it may be helpful for one's progress, over time it can actually impede it - a lot of people have these extraordinary experiences, and keep referencing it in several ways: for example, they use it as "proof" that they are esoterically inclined / adept / whatever; they go looking for that experience again, and either fail to get it and are disillusioned or they recreate it in a way that is not spontaneous like the original one may have bee; also, they may impede the generation of other spontaneous insight by searching for the old one;
worse, they can claim that anyone else on the "path" needs to have that exact experience or they are not doing the practice correctly; regardless, the point is that the experience is simply like the wrapping paper around the box that contains the gift: the gift being some change in one's inherent physiology and / or psychology that persists over time and aides one in further progress; e.g. - you "believe" that your root chakra opens up like a rainbow and as a result your pelvic floor looses a great deal of stored resting tension, so now you can sit longer and with less pain, meaning that you now have increased ability to experience stillness and as a result your heart chakra opens into a wonderful lotus flower and also your blood pressure keeps more regulated and then the celestial dragon flys up the back of your spine and you are also able to breathe more deeply and so your stomach dysfunction improves, etc.; to me, the whole rainbow / lotus / dragon bit gets flushed like soiled paper: that was all just a vehicle to get your cognitive mind to "allow" the autonomic nervous system to do what it really really wants to do: achieve and maintain homestasis - the important part is the change in physical capacity to sit and be still, the decreased BP, increase O2 sat., dec. stomach stuff; eventually, to me, it makes more sense to know it's my pelvic floor releasing, and being able to go ther directly and have / let it happen when needs be; now some may think this to be mundane and limited as oposed to all the wonderful other imagery, but quite frankly i find the profound ordinariness of it all to be much more interesting
so that's it; oh, and then to actually apply all that practice so that you don't then go home and be an SOB (albeit an enlightened one!) to your wife and kids, LOL


I tend to see it as pretty genius that these people of days gone by figured this stuff out, especially considering their limited tools and ways of documenting things. The level of mindfulness that would have allowed this to take place is pretty impressive from my standpoint.
my sense is that if you don't have TV, phones, computers and life in general moves much more slowly, you are much better adept at listening in general - remember, according to the Buddha, we are now in the Dharma-ending age, where enlightenment is very difficult and "reserved" for only a few (whereas in the Buddha's time, 1,000's of people would spontaneously awake after he spoke to a crowd for like 2 minutes...); and isn't genius something like 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice give n take going on here :)

In regards to the sound thing, modern science has shown us that sound does indeed effect our moods, even our health.
Not much of a gray area there.
The ability to effect our internal organs by the vibrational modulation of your voice, well...that's a tad tricky.
Impossible?
Nah, unlikely? probably for the vast majority.
Octive ranges aside, we can pretty much feel how our insides "vibrate" when we hum , or "oommm", when we "kiai" and such.
To what extent that effects our organs is still a huge gray area, simply because we are all very different with different water % at any given time, fat %, muscle %, etc.
Also, tension plays a huge part.
When we tense we basically tell out body to "prepare" for some event, usually a violent one, the body understands tension as a protection/defense mechanisim so the chances of our internal being stimulated while tension is in the body are even more limited than usual.
Hence many meditive practises that use chants and sounds stress relaxation.

In regards to the IW, certain breathing patterns make sense, the sound issues to stimulate the internal organs, that is still "up in the air" sort of speaking.