i was just thinking

[hskwarrior]

You know, i was thinking about some of the things said during our little discussions of whether hung sing and buk sing are the same.

well, Tam Sam had other hung sing people come in and instruct his students, and even explore their CLF even further.......this leads me to wonder just how much of CLF did people really grasp back then?

I mean, out of all the Hung Sing lineages, Lau Bun, Tam Sam, and Choy Yat Kiew of the Singapore Hung Sing line all come from the OLDEST lineages in the Hung Sing family tree. By this i mean, Yuen Hai, Lui Chun, and Lee Yan were all very SENIOR disciples of Jeung Yim long before Chan Ngau Sing came into the picture.

It seems by Tam Sams lineage and even Lau Buns, they knew how to use what they knew, but it wasn't truly set in concrete back then. so therefore they continued to explore its usage.

It would be nice to know what CLF was like back then from the people who actually lived it then. Thats why it was such a shame that Lun Chee passed before i could ever get to meet him in person. Although, Grand Elder Lun Chee did verbally record the history of Choy Lee Fut and its recording is kept very privately. I hope to one day get a chance to hear what he said. but since it was too controversial, he asked that it not get out to the public.

again, it would have been nice to ask Lun Chee about where CLF was at back then, and to see how much its evolved to this day.

[CLFNole]

As much as I respect Lun Chee even if you could have spoken with him he is still a few generations removed: Jeong Yim - Lui Chan - Tam Sam - Lun Chee, so as much insight as he would have had he still would not have been able to give you an idea of what things exactly looked like at the time of Jeong Yim. My guess is that during the span I mentioned above that change occurs just like anything else in the world things change and evolve over time.

Peace.

[nospam]

Well, let's consider this...CLF was formally established in 1836. Tam Sam learned from 3rd Generation disciple Lui Chan (who later followed Cheung Yim after the death of Loong Ji Choi) and also learned from Chan Koon Pak, so Tam Sam is also considered a 3rd Generation disciple. When Tam Sam was born, CLF was a mere 37 years of age. When Tam Sam became a disciple of Lui Chan, CLF was a mere 52 years old!

At the beginning, it is said Tam Sam didn’t trust the total effectiveness of CLF but this new style showed promise and he was accepted under Lui Chan. In a matter of years, he started to help instruct until his expulsion from Lui Chan’s school. The original CLF had 49 forms as handed down by Chen Heung.Tam Sam had learned 2 and was half way through one when expelled.

What was CLF like during Tam Sam’s day and age? It was new! CLF continued to be developed by various disciples. CLF fights with circular movements in attacking and defending. Power is generated from turning the whole body to whip the strikes out with blinding speed to overwhelm the opponent. The positive side of CLF was that it was easy to learn and very effective.

It seems to me CLF took two major turns during its early development, a focus on forms and a focus on fighting. It also seems to me a lot of time and energy was put forth in the development of forms, which can be interpreted to mean more disciples of CLF preferred forms than developing and refining the application in actual fighting. There are many reasons for why the amount of forms more then doubled in a relatively brief time period.

Tam Sam was a gung fu genius. He constantly tested what was taught and was driven by a sense of the practical. He took CLF methodologies and modified them, synthesizing not only CLF but other fighting approaches from many other styles of the time. Those CLF disciples that preferred fighting, fought. Insomuch as the other CLF disciples added more forms, these CLF disciples, as hskwarrior commented, continued to explore its usage in a different venue. Tam Sam not only refined the CLF he was taught, he developed new fighting strategies and concepts to the point where he was openly recognised as 'founder', unique and distinctive from all others - no matter how much people want to state otherwise.

So what was CLF like at the turn of the century? It had spread like wildfire and was continuing to be developed by many of its disciples in many different ways. Gung fu was also strongly influenced during this time by the events of the Republican Period (1912-1949). China went though much during the Japanese invasion and its civil war, after which gung fu became more accessible to the general public and encouraged to openly be taught and learned.

So as you can see, the history of CLF isn't as old and seperated by generations as some of us may think. Lun Chee learned from Tam Sam and was his top disciple. Today CLF is only 172 years old.

nospam
:cool:

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Tam Sam was a gung fu genius. Tam Sam not only refined the CLF he was taught, he developed new fighting strategies and concepts to the point where he was openly recognised as 'founder', unique and distinctive from all others - no matter how much people want to state otherwise.


Great post nospam!

Earlier today I spoke with my Sifu who said the same thing as you just did and wanted me to post why we are our Own Branch in the Choy Lay Fut style - as are Chan family and Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon the other Branches. The above quote of yours sums it up really well!

Nick
BSG

[TenTigers]

Nospam, out of curiosity, do you know of any exposure Tarm Sam may have had to Hop-Ga? I witnessed a Hop-Ga set recently and much of it looked to be identical to Buk Sing CLF. (more so than to other CLF families)

[nospam]

TenTigers - let is put it this way. Wong Yin Lum was one of the Ten Tigers of Guangdong and had set up shop there. It is said Wong's interpretation of the art involved tactics from his fights and association with the other Ten Tigers.

Tam Sam interacted with many masters of his day, and with Wongs reputation as a fighter and his exploits (supposedly ranked #1 within the ranks of the Tigers), it goes without a doubt that Tam Sam crossed hands with one of Wong's 2nd Generation disciples. It is very reasonable to say Hop Gar could have influenced Tam Sam in some fashion or form as it relates to fighting strategy.

Hop Gar is a very dynamic gung fu with a similar fighting philosophy in terms of aggression. As they say in Hop Gar,""When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you." Tam Sam held this belief and taught offense is the best defense!

nospam
:cool:

[stout]

Well, let's consider this...CLF was formally established in 1836. Tam Sam learned from 3rd Generation disciple Lui Chan (who later followed Cheung Yim after the death of Loong Ji Choi) and also learned from Chan Koon Pak, so Tam Sam is also considered a 3rd Generation disciple.

nice bit of history....

Do you mean that Tarm Sam himself learnt from koon Pak? Or was it his teacher. It seems that koon pak was living in very interesting times in CLF history.

[hskwarrior]

you know there's a Li Iu Ling website that claims Tam Sam also was a student of Chan Koon Pak. But this website also lists "Fung Bai Low" as a chan family set, when i know that it was created and developed by the founder of the Singapore Hung Sing Kwoon.

However, Lui Chun (not sure of lui chun), Yuen Hai, and Lee Yan were all Jeung Yim's senior disciples. but they are also listed at the same time as Loong Ji Choy's students too. Both Loong Ji Choy and Jeung Yim were in the same place at the same time, and had the same students. to me thats a little fishy. another thing.....why does loong Ji Choy's sets resemble the Hung Sing method more than it does the Chan Family?

but, Grand Elder Lun Chee started learning his CLF as a young man, and lived to be in his late 90's. CLF is only under 200 years old, and he himself was close to half CLF's age. So, yeah, i would have loved to hear directly from him what CLF was like, or what stage it was developed to at the time he started learning it.

It was he himself that said Fut San Hung Sing CLF wasn't called CLF.....but Fut Gar Zheng Jong. So i think he'd have a real good perspective of what the Hung Sing CLF was like back then. Hell, he even met Lau Bun's sifu Yuen Hai.

anyways, good post Naya.

frankie frank

[nospam]

Yes. As I said before, and to clarify...Tam Sam had also learned from Chan Koon Pak. The Jong (wooden dummy) was Chan Koon Pak's specialty and after Chan Koon Pak relocated to Guangdong, Tam Sam learned these training techniques along with other 3rd Generation CLF disciples.

Tam Sam lived in a very interesting and turbulent time. The Manchu’s, The Boxer Rebellion, The Nationalist Revolution, Japanese occupation of Guangdong, and The Civil War, which broke out a few years after the death of Tam Sam.

Then there was the time when the Republic of China promoted martial arts. Competitions were everywhere and it is said every province had set up a traditional Chinese martial arts school! We are all still reaping the benefits of these times.

Gung Hay Fat Choy!

nospam
:cool:

[CLFNole]

Frank:

Are there records that say when Liu Chan, Yuen Hai & Chan Ngau Sing followed Jeong Yim? I was always under the impression that becuase of the secrecy thing regarding the revolution that there were no records. Just curious if new information was discovered.

[hskwarrior]

I don't personally think there was any written lists of disciples no.

From what i understand, in 1970 when the Memorial For Chan Heung thing came out, they just happened to list and lump everyone under Chan Heung.

Certain websites have a list of who they think were students of so and so.

However, Yuen Hai was Lau Bun's Sifu, and whatever Yuen Hai told Lau Bun he passed down within our lineage.

Never had the name Loong Gee Choy been mentioned in our lineage what so ever. we have our lineage list and his name is nowhere to be found.

now, yes, there was a strong and still is a strong sense of secrecy in fut san and in southern china in those days. Secrecy was paramount. the hung sing kwoon and its disciples were constantly in the news and wanted for their connection to the hung mun. so if anyone was caught with actual literature it meant death usually

[hskwarrior]

as i said earlier, the fut san hung sing kwoon was so much in the news in their days that people were too scared to even talk about certain things.

but because the hung sing kwoon was in the spotlight, the government has its own records on the hung sing kwoon. and certain people in the Fut San Hung Sing kwoon now work for the government and is helping to do more research.

I for one will always be skeptical of new information, but in no way will i shut it down. Fut San Sing is my family lineage, and very little was known until it began to re-open its doors. forget that the government is involved for a second, we weren't part of the in flux of CLF people flocking to hung sing, we were there before it happened.

Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is up on their history, and they know who learned from who. They are not as silly as some may make them out to be.

they may do what ever for the all mighty dollar and the government pushes them to, but that doesn't mean they don't know the real deal either. you never know what goes on behind closed doors, and that goes hand in hand with the Secrecy idea.

[hskwarrior]

Are there records that say when Liu Chan, Yuen Hai & Chan Ngau Sing followed Jeong Yim.......

although there are no records.....does that negate the fact that the three mentioned were senior disciples of Jeung Yim? the very disciples of Jeung Yim wouldn't lie him, in my opinion of course, what would they have to gain from lying? so we have relied on word of mouth about our history. just because it wasn't written down doesn't mean its not true.

picture this, Dee-bo gets killed in the Hood, but it never makes the news, tv, or any type of media. Because it wasn't in print, did that mean he wasn't really killed? (its just a question, so please don't take it any other way Nollie)there are no images of jeung yim, but there is only two images existing of jeung yim's disciples. Tham Lup, and Chan Ngau Sing. does that mean jeung yim didn't exist?

nah, we all know the truth. clfnole, you know who's in your lineage. as do we.
and the name loong ji choy has never been mentioned in our lineage.

[hskwarrior]

oh, and actually, no written records dating from 1883, but we all know that Chan Ngau Sing joined at some point in 1883 or so, right now i could be off date.

we proved that Jeung Yim didn't die young just by counting backwards from when Chan Ngau Sing died.

Outside of fut san, there are many many rumors to what happened to jeung yim. some say he was ambushed. others say he was poisoned. was it all for the drama of it? IDK........you know what fut san had to say about how Jeung yim died? with a silly look on their face, they said "he just got sick and died"........not ambushed, not poisoned.......

so what i'm saying is that if we believe whats outside sources say, then we will still think he was killed.

the only new information that we learned was the he alson learned from lee yau san too. and in my opinion, this was plausible because lee yau san was in Sun Wui, and Jeung Yim is from Sun Wui too.

oh, the other new info was that an ancestral tablet found during the clean up of the Japanese invasion was found and it contained the Green Grass Monks name on it.

oh this too.....jeung yim was married to Chan Kay, and had two sons that died early on.

[deeperthantao]

Well said Naya

[htowndragon]

it says tam sam crossed hands with wong yan lum and it was a tie or something. and tam sam was influenced by hop gar.

[CLFNole]

Frank:

My question has nothing to do with whether or not Jeong Yim or Lung Gee Choy existed just you stated earlier than Chan Ngau Sing came much later than Yuen Hai and Liu Chan. Just wondering if that was just your opinion or was that documented somehow? From what it sounds like they could have been around at the same time as they are all considered senior disciples or maybe the most well known ones, who knows others might have been killed off and didn't teach.

[hskwarrior]

nah, sigung jew leong is to yuen hai, as doc fai wong is to chan ngau sing.