Iron Palm for MMA

[Three Harmonies]

Just read Mr. Dugas' article on "Iron Palm for MMA" in the latest KFQ rag, and while it is a really good article on Iron Palm, I have a couple questions:
-Not sure what it has to do with MMA? You mention MMA in the opening paragraph, then the closing paragraph. Nothing in between. So I am not sure why the title reflects a focus on MMA?

- Why not shop this to one of the MMA rags?

- I know you do not fight MMA, but do you have any students who have tried this training?

- Devils advocate question: if iron palm training really made people strike harder, why is it we do not hear about any fighters training this method?

Thanks
Jake :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just read Mr. Dugas' article on "Iron Palm for MMA" in the latest KFQ rag, and while it is a really good article on Iron Palm, I have a couple questions:
-Not sure what it has to do with MMA? You mention MMA in the opening paragraph, then the closing paragraph. Nothing in between. So I am not sure why the title reflects a focus on MMA?

- Why not shop this to one of the MMA rags?

- I know you do not fight MMA, but do you have any students who have tried this training?

- Devils advocate question: if iron palm training really made people strike harder, why is it we do not hear about any fighters training this method?

Thanks
Jake :cool:

One of the reasons I started IP was how much sense it made for HNB with Bare hands sans gloves.

[MasterKiller]

One of the reasons I started IP was how much sense it made for HNB with Bare hands sans gloves.

When was the last time someone broke a hand in an MMA fight from punching when they were wearing 4-oz gloves?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When was the last time someone broke a hand in an MMA fight from punching when they were wearing 4-oz gloves?

Since I posted about bare knuckle, what's your point ;)

Yeah, even 4oz gloves already offer enough protection.

Then again, MMA punch like bunch of pansies !
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where can we read Dale's article by the way?

[MasterKiller]

Since I posted about bare knuckle, what's your point ;)

Yeah, even 4oz gloves already offer enough protection.

Then again, MMA punch like bunch of pansies !
:p

When was the last time you fought bareknuckle NHB?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When was the last time you fought bareknuckle NHB?

January 1999

Last MMA match had MMA gloves, that was a couple of years ago, why?

[MasterKiller]

January 1999

Last MMA match had MMA gloves, that was a couple of years ago, why?

When did you start Iron Palm? You said "One of the reasons I started IP was how much sense it made for HNB with Bare hands sans gloves" so I'm just trying to get some perspective. Were you doing Iron Palm before 1999?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When did you start Iron Palm? You said "One of the reasons I started IP was how much sense it made for HNB with Bare hands sans gloves" so I'm just trying to get some perspective. Were you doing Iron Palm before 1999?

Nope, only been doing it for the last 2 years, I started IP based on what I learned while doing NHB.
Never had a chance to apply it in competition, perhaps in the future, but I doubt it.
I was doing "typical" Karate conditoning and only had some minor bruises but I noticed that the open hand was ideal for GnP from the top position.

[GeneChing]

The issue is just arriving on the newsstands now. We hope to have the table of contents posted in our magazine section (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/index.php) by the end of the day (but if you haven't noticed, we've been having server problems all week :( time to get a new server...)

I'm sure Dale (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?u=8059) will chime in on this as soon as he sees it.

As for MMA people training Iron Palm, I know Grandmaster Alex Tao (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=132) coached at Cung Le (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50545)'s school for a very short period some years ago. It was short lived however - I think the language barrier made them part ways.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think that many MMA fighters would opt for a 2 year long program for IP, sport combat tends to look for the quickest routes to combat effectiveness and IP, while effective, is a long road.
I think that someone with IP going into MMA has an advantage in the striking game, I don't see someone already in MMA training devoting the time needed for IP.
If it was already part of a curriculum from the beginning, possibly.

[Three Harmonies]

I have never heard of any coach in any combat sport attributing anything to Iron Palm training.

Thanks
Jake :cool:

[Lucas]

Thats an awsome article on GM Tao.

[Dale Dugas]

I have taught a few students privately that wanted to learn the method to help them in NHB events where gloves were not involved.

I wanted to introduce a shortened version of IP that could be trained by anyone who is strapped for time but still gleam effects in the long run.

Way too many people wrap their hands and train with a hand that could break if used in an unwrapped phase.

I know its a long shot for most. But I wanted to get it out there that there is something that can help strengthen the hands as well as the GnP.

Jake, always good to hear pro and con about subjects.

[Vajramusti]

Gene says: (but if you haven't noticed, we've been having server problems all week time to get a new server...)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had problems with opening KFO a second time. have to shut down pc and try again and again. Sometimes I just give up.

joy chaudhuri

[ngokfei]

Jake it seems like KFM is trying to include the MMA into their magazine. Have you seen their new t-shirt line.;)

While the article contained the standard information on Iron Palm and its beginner training routine it would have been better to of demonstrated just how it would be useful.

Example like to show some palm techniques utilizing MMA hand gear etc.

The only broken hands I've heard and seen in MMA/NHB was when a punch was thrown. Palm techniques seem to be very rare except in the clinch or guard.

Perhaps a focus on IRON FIST training would have been a better topic

[cjurakpt]

what would be interesting to do is to set up a study of 2 groups of MMA guys - one group does IP according to a standardized method (as much as is possible), the other doesn't; then compare them after a few years to see if the incidence of hand injuries was similar (they would all have to engage in bare knuckle fights at a similar frequency), and also if any of the IP groups opponents spontaneously coughed up their spleen a day or two after the fight...

of course, I am being a bit facetious, but my point is this: without any reliable way of gathering relatively objective evidence that supports taking extra time to train IP (which is time away from training other things), not to mention the extra cost involved (instruction, materials, herbs), I am hard pressed to substantiate why it would be favorable in an MMA context over other methods of hand conditioning, such as hitting a heavy bag or whatnot

I am not suggesting IP training doesn't actually have actual physiological effects (e.g. - increased blood flow, decreased pain threshold, increased bone / soft tissue density - nothing that doesn't jive with Wolff's Law regarding the behavior of tissue put under increased loading requirements, BTW), just whether or not it makes sense to apply to MMA

[Dale Dugas]

Why wrap your hands when you can hit people and break em?

Thats what a student told me.

Made sense to him to train this as its not only hand training but learning to connect better and passively train relaxation.

[cjurakpt]

Why wrap your hands when you can hit people and break em?

Thats what a student told me.
.

well, it is intriguing in one respect: it is arguable that most people who train IP don't have much opportunity to "use it" on a regular basis in the sense that an MMA guy would regularly have opportunities to hit people as hard as possible; in that respect, one could, instead of the old double-blind randomized schtick described above, anecdotally get fighter's feedback re: if they felt any difference in what it was like to hit people before and after doing IP training (anecdotal studies have significant validity as long as they are not taken for more than what they are) and if they found that they were doing more damage on their strikes vis a vis opponent response (or lack thereof, LOL)


Made sense to him to train this as its not only hand training but learning to connect better and passively train relaxation.
ok, but admittedly the connection / relaxation bit could be practiced in other contexts as well - what it demonstrates is that IP is, obviously, not going to "work" if you have a hand that's rock hard but a body that can't deliver it to its target and generate enough force at the same time - pretty much the same as any other effective method of striking, really; the only thing is, one would arguably want to consider how to segue the "traditional" exercises against inanimate objects to becoming functional in a sparring situation, since the context of delivery, and hence the biomechanics, are different

anyway, it would be interesting to hear about your student's experiences - if indeed it did confer an advantage, it would be wild to see MMA guys doing IP training as part of their overall routine...

[Three Harmonies]

Good points all!

Ngok-
Well I intended this thread to be aimed at Dale, the author, but now that you mention it, yes Gene seems to be trying to tie together MMA and CMA as much as possible this last year of issues or so. Nothing wrong with that IMO (though we need more MMA coverage like we need a hole in our heads! Have you seen how many rags cover MMA!?!?:eek:). But I was disappointed at the end result of the article where little, to nothing in it had anything to do with MMA. Not sure if the title was Dale's decision, or Gene's though.

Again, not **** talking Dale, I have mad respect, as I thought it was an excellent Iron Palm article. As a fellow writer, artist, and junior to Dale I posed a question. He answered, and I appreciate it.
Good conversation guys,
Jake :D

[Dale Dugas]

Jake,

Its all good brother. Like I said, pro and con, its good to hear both side of everything.


It was more focused on the training routine and not on MMA itself.

Thanks for the feedback!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats an awsome article on GM Tao.

Ditto, very cool article.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, it is intriguing in one respect: it is arguable that most people who train IP don't have much opportunity to "use it" on a regular basis in the sense that an MMA guy would regularly have opportunities to hit people as hard as possible; in that respect, one could, instead of the old double-blind randomized schtick described above, anecdotally get fighter's feedback re: if they felt any difference in what it was like to hit people before and after doing IP training (anecdotal studies have significant validity as long as they are not taken for more than what they are) and if they found that they were doing more damage on their strikes vis a vis opponent response (or lack thereof, LOL)

In terms of competition, I have not had a chance to use IP.
The sparring I do uses gloves, and I have always been "heavy handed" according to my sparring partners.
I did use it VS a motorcycle helmet last year, and I put a crack in it, I didn't think much to hold back on the strike.
Would I have been able to do that without IP?
I don't know, but I know that I probably would not have tried it.
I have demoed the back hand strike and, through 2 yellow pages books, I put a nice red welt on a students chest.
Again a strike I would not have tried before IP.
Woudl the results have been the same?
I don't think so.

I did come into IP with a very solid delivery platform though.

[jackmcmanus21]

When was the last time someone broke a hand in an MMA fight from punching when they were wearing 4-oz gloves?

Hand breaks happen all the time in MMA

[GeneChing]

The article on Alex Tao is pretty old now, but a fav of mine. I risked my life for that one. Seriously.

As for the title, it was Dale's idea, and we went with it.

As for covering more MMA, we'd be remiss in our duty to not cover it. It's such a huge phenomena and has tremendous impact and implications upon our community. As for the new MMA shirts, well, we got to pay the bills here too, of course. Take a look and let us know what you think. Better still, just buy some (http://www.martialartsmart.net/mma-tshirts.html).

And as for the server, it's been a huge hassle and we apologize for its recent inconsistency. Our IT person has been working on it for weeks. We plan to move the forum soon. Truth be told, its the forum that's holding us up. It's a mammoth and mammoths are hard to move. I'll keep you updated, of course.

You'll find the table of contents for the new issue is online now here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=758).

[Lucas]

I risked my life for that one. Seriously.

Okay, now I have to ask. Can we have a story time?

[kfman5F]

Do you ever wonder why they wrap their hands before putting on the gloves? Same with boxers. Most of their hands are fragile, otherwise they wouldn't be wrapped. Iron palm training would toughen them up tremendously and hit harder. Probably most MMA fighters are not into traditional CMA and wouldn't be aware of such training.

[Lucas]

Not to mention there is a large mentality amongst many MMA fighters to out right denounce traditional methods. Generally stating that there is no back up scientifical evidence to prove methodology.

Whilst generally speaking, this element is just due to the fact that "modern scientists" dont spend a lot of time trying to defunk or prove traditional martial arts.

Generally the only studies done on things like this are by people seeking these methods. And as they say, "The proof is in the putting"

The traditionalists recieve the research data personally, by personally researching, through experimentation.

Similar to how many more traditional techniques are now finding room in the MMA arena. Many of these techniques and training methods that are just now being 'discovered' by MMA fighters, are just following suit.

In other words, the traditionalists originally found these techniques to be usable by the same methods the MMA guys are just now 'discovering' what works. By fighting.

Traditional arts are founded in actual combat. Combat that often times were grounded in life and death situations. NOT sport.

Its the same process, and the longer MMA is around, the more traditional methods you will see 'seep' their way into the sport.

Like I always say, " Its about MAKING the technique work" if you can MAKE it work, the success ratio goes up, then more people will try it out.

For instance. Notice all the high kicks are now becoming much more effective in MMA? A few years ago people would rip into you for even suggesting to throw them in a 'real fight'. Now people get KO all the time by them.

even those that are 'evolved' will continue to evolve.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The glove element takes away many of the IP benefits.
IP is a long and sometimes painful road, I don;t see many sport combat people with short "life spans" in the sport, devoting their very limited time to IP.
Not when they could be doing some "immediate gratification" work.

[Phil Redmond]

I know a pro boxer who has done IP and his sparring partners have asked him if he had anything in his gloves. All he had was his hands of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a pro boxer who has done IP and his sparring partners have asked him if he had anything in his gloves. All he had was his hands of course.

Lies I say !!!
Names !!
Address !!
Urine samples !!

:D

[1bad65]

Do you ever wonder why they wrap their hands before putting on the gloves? Same with boxers.

Maybe so they don't break them? :rolleyes:


Most of their hands are fragile, otherwise they wouldn't be wrapped.

No, it's because their hands are their livelyhood so they take every precaution to protect them.


What experience do you have in boxing or MMA?

[Three Harmonies]

Phil
Who is the boxer?

Lucas,
Interesting points. Not sure I agree 100% though. The high kick has always been in MMA and combat sports for instance, look at Muay Thai.
People "deBunk" certain things because a lot of methods such as IP take a lot of time, and frankly have never been proven to make anything better. If I had only two hours a day, I would hit the heavy bag instead of do IP practice.

Cheers
Jake

[MasterKiller]

Okay, now I have to ask. Can we have a story time?

They almost died riding the roller coaster trolley thing down the mountain to get to Wudan, iirc.

[1bad65]

Not to mention there is a large mentality amongst many MMA fighters to out right denounce traditional methods. Generally stating that there is no back up scientifical evidence to prove methodology.

Wrapping hands has been done for a long time by boxers. MMA guys picked it right up.

You just have to bear in mind that there is less room in 4oz MMA glove than a 12oz boxing glove so the wrapping is just a little different.

The evidence is that boxers hit each other a few hundred times in a bout and broken hands are a rarity. And thats not even counting the rounds they spend sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hand wrapping is an art form unto itself.
A good wrapper can make you hands like sledgehammers, you can drill full force with ALMOST no consequence.
Fractures in the hands tend to be the back of the hand from hitting an elbow, sometimes the fingers ( though that is rare).
Knuckle fractures happen when the wrapping was done half assed.
Remember, boxers wrap AND Tape.

[1bad65]

Hand wrapping is an art form unto itself.
A good wrapper can make you hands like sledgehammers, you can drill full force with ALMOST no consequence.
Fractures in the hands tend to be the back of the hand from hitting an elbow, sometimes the fingers ( though that is rare).
Knuckle fractures happen when the wrapping was done half assed.
Remember, boxers wrap AND Tape.

No one whose hands I've wrapped has ever broken a hand.

Yes, I use wrap (gauze) and tape. In Texas you cannot have any tape over the knuckles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one whose hands I've wrapped has ever broken a hand.

Yes, I use wrap (gauze) and tape. In Texas you cannot have any tape over the knuckles.

Do you use the "knuckle cushion" method, where you place a few "rolls" of the wrap over the knuckles ?

[1bad65]

Do you use the "knuckle cushion" method, where you place a few "rolls" of the wrap over the knuckles ?

Yes. Getting that cushion over the knuckles and then keeping it in place is the key part. I learned under my instructor, he taught me and then watched me the first few times. Now I do it on my own.

The last show I was at (last Sat) someone from another fight team had me wrap their fighter's hands.

[GeneChing]

All good things in all good time. For now, I'd like to direct your attention to our present online sweepstakes for an autographed Alex Tao DVD (http://www.kungfumagazine.net/index.html). I scheduled this contest about two weeks ago, so I'm delighted that it came up here and I can plug it. Timing is everything. ;)

And kudos to MK for his obscure, yet well-placed shot above. As we used to say in fencing 'bon touche, mon ami'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gotta ask you Gene, is Alex for real?

[Lucas]

All good things in all good time. For now, I'd like to direct your attention to our present online sweepstakes for an autographed Alex Tao DVD (http://www.kungfumagazine.net/index.html). I scheduled this contest about two weeks ago, so I'm delighted that it came up here and I can plug it. Timing is everything. ;)

And kudos to MK for his obscure, yet well-placed shot above. As we used to say in fencing 'bon touche, mon ami'.

I hope I win!

[Jimbo]

It was asked which pro boxer was known to have done iron palm training. Several years ago, I read an article on (then future) 140-pound champion Kostya Tzsyu (sp?) who mentioned he had trained IP. He is a Russian/Korean who fights (fought?) out of Australia. He mentioned that the IP was a factor in his K.O. record, but although he was known for his punching power, he himself felt he didn't hit particularly hard so much as he hit the right spots on his opponents. He fought many top boxers; Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, etc., are two that come to mind. I'm not sure if he fought Mayweather or not. I haven't followed boxing in years.

[Phil Redmond]

Lies I say !!!
Names !!
Address !!
Urine samples !!

:D
Urine samples?? ugh . . lol
I've mentioned him before on the Wing Chun forum. Hint. He's Keith Mazza's Wing Chun student.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Urine samples?? ugh . . lol
I've mentioned him before on the Wing Chun forum. Hint. He's Keith Mazza's Wing Chun student.

Rashad ? or how ever you spell it.

[shadowlin]

Just read Mr. Dugas' article on "Iron Palm for MMA" in the latest KFQ rag, and while it is a really good article on Iron Palm, I have a couple questions:
-Not sure what it has to do with MMA? You mention MMA in the opening paragraph, then the closing paragraph. Nothing in between. So I am not sure why the title reflects a focus on MMA?

- Why not shop this to one of the MMA rags?

- I know you do not fight MMA, but do you have any students who have tried this training?

- Devils advocate question: if iron palm training really made people strike harder, why is it we do not hear about any fighters training this method?

Thanks
Jake :cool:

because MMA isn't real fighting and ironpalm is not to be taken lightly. If a teacher finds out his ironpalm student is doing MMA, he ought to discipline him/her. It's far too dangerous and MMA bouts have many many rules.

[Dale Dugas]

you are kidding right?

Just because you train your hands does not mean you are the Deadly.

It means you can hit without gloves and not hurt yourself.

try and come back to reality here and not go off on strange martial fiction tangents.

[lkfmdc]

you are kidding right?



No, sadly, he is yet another one of those people who has buried his head in his butt and is living in Kung Fu Fantasy Land (KFFL)




Just because you train your hands does not mean you are the Deadly.

It means you can hit without gloves and not hurt yourself.



Spot on description of functional use, demystifying and direct to the point, too bad this statement, by an acknowledged expert in the field, will be ignored by the KFFL patrol