Shaolin from short double weapons

[Tainan Mantis]

I have be doing some research on the relationship of double weapons to Mantis Boxing and short strikes.

Just before I posted an article on the subject of double weapons in Mantis Boxing I noticed that Sal Canzonieri posted this quote'

"all shaolin material is first derived from movements of using a staff and THAT stuff comes from Double Sword movements that arose from Tang dynasty military martial art weapons drills (essentially what is called Tong Bei or Tong Bi today). "

In the Meir Shahar Shaolin book thread.

My article, called "Wang Lang and his Pair of Swords" is here http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

Has anyone else come across any relationship between the double sword or stick and ancient kung fu?

[shadowlin]

our double sword form is too complete and ornate to be as old as the Tang dynasty. sorry I cannot help you.
PM me if you find anything interesting.

[Shaolin]

Sal Canzonieri the comic book writer? First I'd question the individual and their knowledge on the subject. Personally, I've never hear of this historic theory that Shaolin martial arts stems from staff which "THAT stuff" stems from double swords (which double swords by the way). Clearly the writer unable to articulate him/herself in an intelligent manner, leading me to believe that the quote is controversial garbage and the person is just trying to start an argument. Or they've watched too much kung fu theater.

Either way, knowing where we come from is quite important because patterns in history DO repeat themselves. But, if I know a punch, and I practice it 10,000 times and I can deliver it with speed, power and accuracy every single time; does knowing the history of where the punch came from improve my punch? Not likely.
But that is my opinion. Peace and Love.

[sha0lin1]

[QUOTE=Shaolin;852204]Sal Canzonieri the comic book writer? First I'd question the individual and their knowledge on the subject. Personally, I've never hear of this historic theory that Shaolin martial arts stems from staff which "THAT stuff" stems from double swords (which double swords by the way). Clearly the writer unable to articulate him/herself in an intelligent manner, leading me to believe that the quote is controversial garbage and the person is just trying to start an argument. Or they've watched too much kung fu theater.

Well the book "Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts"
states that staff techniques were developed at Shaolin prior to the open hand techniques. I had never heard of this theory before either, so I asked my master and he said that yes, in fact it was thought that the staff techniques were developed first. I trust this book, it is well researched and cited and is probably the only in depth book on Shaolin Temple, in English anyway.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Either way, knowing where we come from is quite important because patterns in history DO repeat themselves. But, if I know a punch, and I practice it 10,000 times and I can deliver it with speed, power and accuracy every single time; does knowing the history of where the punch came from improve my punch? Not likely.
But that is my opinion. Peace and Love.

knowledge is power
so knowing where the punch came from will get you more power
haha
jk

good example u used. just wanted to comment

[Lucas]

What would being a comic book writer have to do with kungfu?

Skewed logic.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sal Canzonieri is a well known, and well respected Chinese martial arts researcher with numerous published articals.

He says what he says because Shaolin is based on Taoist Tong bei for the most part. He's also done the research and comparisons to now which end is up. The man is like a walking encyclopedia of martial arts facts and data. He was actually one of the first to disprove all the old legends. Prior to that we all thought these legends were factual history.

Considering that for most of his martial arts history he's been uncovering and comparing facts, finding truth and dispelling mystery, if he says something I would think it would carry quite a bit of weight, especially since other researchers in his field are coming to the same, or similar conclusions as he has.

[B-Rad]

Sal writes comics??

[David Jamieson]

Sal Canzonieri is a well known, and well respected Chinese martial arts researcher with numerous published articals.

He says what he says because Shaolin is based on Taoist Tong bei for the most part. He's also done the research and comparisons to now which end is up. The man is like a walking encyclopedia of martial arts facts and data. He was actually one of the first to disprove all the old legends. Prior to that we all thought these legends were factual history.

Considering that for most of his martial arts history he's been uncovering and comparing facts, finding truth and dispelling mystery, if he says something I would think it would carry quite a bit of weight, especially since other researchers in his field are coming to the same, or similar conclusions as he has.

You gotta speak for yourself RD. :D "all" of us didn't buy into a lot of the stories about Shaolin, in fact, many of us didn't buy much of any of it and still don't.

I just got the book today and haven't started to give it a read yet.
So I am going to reserve any commentary about teh work until i have absorbed it.

~ G
Is it possible the author would entertain some questions about his work if they were put forth here in the forums you think?

[Royal Dragon]

You gotta speak for yourself RD. "all" of us didn't buy into a lot of the stories about Shaolin, in fact, many of us didn't buy much of any of it and still don't.

Reply]
I bet you did 10-15 years ago. I don't think there were any alternative theories back then.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal writes comics??

No, I don't.

This negative person obviously looked my name up on google, having never heard of me or read my dozens of articles on Shaolin history, and saw that there is an poster art book out for my band that is credited to me as author.

I have researchers from China contacting me and looking to translate all my articles for publication there, so I think that my research is not fake.

In martial arts history books it is fairly common knowledge that Staff movements, especially from Shaolin, where converted from military drills using double swords and double knives.

Try it for yourself, it is easy to do.

I do all my practicing of sets this way for each set (without changing the movements):
empty hand, then staff, then double knives, and then double swords.

I've been doing CMA since 1975, I've attended many seminars over the decades of people showing this very same correlation.

It's not a big deal, its typical ancient military drill training.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have be doing some research on the relationship of double weapons to Mantis Boxing and short strikes.

Just before I posted an article on the subject of double weapons in Mantis Boxing I noticed that Sal Canzonieri posted this quote'

"all shaolin material is first derived from movements of using a staff and THAT stuff comes from Double Sword movements that arose from Tang dynasty military martial art weapons drills (essentially what is called Tong Bei or Tong Bi today). "

In the Meir Shahar Shaolin book thread.

My article, called "Wang Lang and his Pair of Swords" is here http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

Has anyone else come across any relationship between the double sword or stick and ancient kung fu?

Why do you see that in Mantis?
Well, what's the main style of the 18 masters that mantis is said to originate from?
Tai Zu Quan and Tong Bei Quan.

Both of these styles are ancient (Tang dynasty) military based styles, and as such they make great use of the double weapons. One is a offense and the other is defense simultaneously.

[Sal Canzonieri]

You gotta speak for yourself RD. :D "all" of us didn't buy into a lot of the stories about Shaolin, in fact, many of us didn't buy much of any of it and still don't.

I just got the book today and haven't started to give it a read yet.
So I am going to reserve any commentary about the work until i have absorbed it.

~ G
Is it possible the author would entertain some questions about his work if they were put forth here in the forums you think?

Everyone so far in various forums that has said this and used to argue against me has been very quiet after reading the book. Some have PMed me to say that they understand now.

It's a very well researched and enlightening book.