Tai Chi & Wing Chun

[MapoTofu]

Maybe you need a Tai Chi Master to explain Wing Chun (http://youtube.com/watch?v=S8Omt495kgI)! This is probably an issue that will push more buttons as we embrace newer forms of communication. Many of you put up video demonstrations and I would like your thoughts on this. Do you mind if someone edits your video to fit their argument? Is it Fair Use? Is this a constructive way to build a consensus, or prove a point?

I personally think everyone has the right to express their opinion about anything under the Sun, AS LONG as you fairly use other people's video works. What do you think is fair? I appreciate your time on this. There is an interesting question about Wing Chun and Tai Chi - who would have thought a Tai Chi has Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Pak Sau. Did anyone explore that part of Wing Chun History? :D

[anerlich]

There seems to be some sort of problem with that video, it won't load, though others in the series will. None of them actually included any of the footage of the video being critiqued/dissed, so I can't really see what you're on about with "fair use", etc. If criticising vids were illegal, the entire film critic industry would be looking for new careers.

The guy doesn't really know **** about WC, his points of contact with the hands are wrong for one thing and basically all the things he suggest are hardly revelatory.

London to a brick says he has some personal issue envy/jealousy with the guy whose vid he is dissing, and has chosen to expose the less attractive aspects of his personality to the world. Maybe they were both after the same girl in high school, who hopefully saw sense and dumped them both.

Basically, if you put it out there on Youtube, you are asking for criticism, cheap shots and ridicule.

IANAL, but I guess fair use is well enough defined to say where the legal boundaries are.

For better or worse, there are no laws against hatchet jobs, trying to make yourself look good by making others look bad, acting dishonourably or in poor taste, etc. etc.

Taking this to court would serve no purpose other than to expose all involved as morons.

Have you seen the Bullshido "WC sucks" (or equivalently titled) vid? That probably insults more people than this. Was that "fair use"?

While the time honoured traditions or denigrating fellow practitioners, what they learned and from whom, their character and intelligence, etc. is not restricted to TCMA, TCMA seems to waste far more time on it than just about anybody else.

Only a fool listens to the braying of the ass.

There are only so many ways to accomplish the same goal, so its hardly surprising that KF techniques from two systems share some commonality. I did taiji for about 5 years, and I see both taiji and WC in some BJJ techniques. But IMO such "revelations" don't prove anything or help anyone, they are just slightly interesting bits of trivia.

The only button I'll be pushing with this is "snooze".

[Liddel]

This is probably an issue that will push more buttons

I dont see it that way myself. The guy clearly isnt in the know.

Or to be diplomatic, what he's showing isnt representitive of what i do or how i do it. So it's for mugs IMO.

It doesn't push my buttons at all, why. Cause im happy with the VT i have regardless of what others say :cool:

On the other hand you have to think that its just a natural thing for a stylist to want answers to things they must face from other styles.

I think about how to deal with people that want to take me down (grapplers).
He obvioulsy has issues with VT, hence the need to address it....

One could look at it more like a 'props' IMHO.
LOL

[Matrix]

I personally think everyone has the right to express their opinion about anything under the Sun, AS LONG as you fairly use other people's video works. What do you think is fair? To some degree, the answer is in your question. Everyone has a different view on what is "fair".

As Andrew and DREW have already pointed out, the poster is clearly misinfomed on WC. I've seen some of his earlier videos. It's best, but maybe not easy, to ignore the criticism. Consider the source, and discount it from there.

Trying to "prove your point" only validates the attack. That which you resist, persists.

Peace,
Bill

[Hendrik]

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=S8Omt495kgI] There is an interesting question about Wing Chun and Tai Chi - who would have thought a Tai Chi has Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Pak Sau. Did anyone explore that part of Wing Chun History? :D


very superficial view. IMHO.

[mun hung]

He totally misinterpreted the video and it's meaning, because he clearly doesn't understand it. He knows squat about Wing Chun, and doesn't derserve this thread. Meaningless...

[Vajramusti]

Agree with Peter. Not much to thread start up. Wing chun and taichi are two different TCMA approaches-different engines, structure and transmissions. Using the human body-things can look similar without being the same.

joy chaudhuri

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

IMO, I saw the video & what was represented does make sense. You don't use bong sau to jam a punch; which would be using force against force. Maybe it was in bad taste to use the guy's video as an example of what not to do. He should have done his own video showing the incorrect method instead of another's. Shouldn't matter if it's a TC guy or not. I thought it was universal in WC to not use force against force, or maybe that's just how I learned.

[mun hung]

IMO, I saw the video & what was represented does make sense. You don't use bong sau to jam a punch; which would be using force against force. Maybe it was in bad taste to use the guy's video as an example of what not to do. He should have done his own video showing the incorrect method instead of another's. Shouldn't matter if it's a TC guy or not. I thought it was universal in WC to not use force against force, or maybe that's just how I learned.

Actually....your typical lop sau drill teaches you how to jam with the bong sau.

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

That's not typical for me. Just like the tc guy said, when trying to jam an incoming force, you would be pushed back. Unless, of course, that you have the physical strength to resist, but what if you don't. Jamming indicates blocking IMO. In our lop kuen, it's more of a jeet concept. I want to intercept the punch with my bong, not jam, or stop the person from punching. I'll use my body and structure to deflect rather than just my arms.

[mun hung]

No strength is necessary in jamming a punch in the correct range before it is fully extended (in the opponents horse/chi sau distance). Only good structure. Nor is it force against force. It is the spiraling triangle that cuts and deflects force. Bong sau is not the "end-all" solution to everything, but can be applied many different ways from different angles, positions and ranges against all sorts of attacks. Many schools of thought on this.

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

I agree. That's the point I was trying to make. It's when you use the word 'jamming' that throws me off. I just wouldn't use that word when describing that action. I guess it's just semantics. I looked up the definition & it shows jamming as

1. To press, push, or thrust violently
2. To fill or block up by crowding
3. To make something unworkable, causing parts to become stuck, blocked
4. To put or place in position with a violent gesture


We're talking semantics but I still think we agree. Bong is used to intercept and deflect.

[Matrix]

Just like the tc guy said, when trying to jam an incoming force, you would be pushed back. That's because he has zero structure. I get the impression that he is doing a bad job to try and make his point, or maybe he's just misinformed. Either way, it's less than accurate IMO.


That's the point I was trying to make. It's when you use the word 'jamming' that throws me off. I just wouldn't use that word when describing that action. I guess it's just semantics. I looked up the definition & it shows jamming as .......The problem with words are that they are abstractions of a concept. When you use a broad-based generic definition to a specific case, you are likely to find these types of problems. You can "jam" without using direct force-on-force. To say that you "don't use bong sau to jam a punch" is not correct, IMO.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Bill

[MapoTofu]

Hey everybody,

The thread I created is gone. Even though some felt the content didn't deserve air-time, an interesting dialog was brewing about the bong sau and I was pleasantly surprised to learn something about cork-screwing(?) triangles, deflection and jamming. A telling sign that maturity prevails in this community, at least that time :D That would have been a very nice discussion to participate in.

I hope it was a db related fire and not mod-deleted. It would suck to be under such scrutiny

Chris (MaTo)

[Matrix]

Chris,

Sorry to see that thread go. I think you're correct that there was an interesting discussion going on the use of bong sau. I'd like to know why the thread was killed. :confused:

Cheers,
Bill

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

I agree. IMO, I think it was killed for political reasons. I thought the bong sau discussion was goin well.

[Matrix]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.... :D

[Ho-gai-sai-ya]

I didn't say that you can't use bong to jam, I said I wouldn't use it. Using angular momentum with my bong, for that split second, the punch is intercepted, and deflected with proper structure off of my center line. I use it to collect energy before facing again and sending it back. I like the term wedge, as opposed to jam. But I really prefer syrup. :D

[Matrix]

I didn't say that you can't use bong to jam, I said I wouldn't use it. Using angular momentum with my bong, for that split second, the punch is intercepted, and deflected with proper structure off of my center line. I use it to collect energy before facing again and sending it back. I like the term wedge, as opposed to jam. But I really prefer syrup. :D
OK, in that case we're in agreement. :cool:
Of course, I would also be happy to use Bong Sau as a more aggressive hand, but maybe that's just me. ;)
Bill