Straight Form (Wah Lum)

[Black Mantis]

Hey, does anybody have a good video showing Wah Lum''s straight form? And does anyone know where it originated? I like the strong hard techniques in it. Thanks in advance. -BM

[Corwyn]

I know the form it's on my next test actually. There used to be VERY bad version of it on utube, but I am not sure it's still up.

According to the handbook it is a Wah Lum Temple form that Si Jo Yuk Tung
got from the temple, but I don't know anything beyond that.

C

[shuaichiao]

I have a few versions of it on tape somewhere but i would have to dig around to find them. I can tell you one thing though. The name is supposed to be street form because the techniques where supposedly good for street fighting in Hong Kong. Apparently a lot of the early Wah Lum students couldn't understand the Chan's accents when they first started teaching in America so the name got mistakenly changed.

[Corwyn]

somehow I rather doubt that there is any truth to that:rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

Wow, serious senior moment. I started to post, got pulled away with something else, then came back and posted about a completely different form.

I checked to see if I have Straight Form on the computer and I don't see it but I might have it on an old tape. Right now my old camera (VHS-C) is broke and I can't play or capture my tapes but I'm sure I have it recorded somewhere.

I need to get all that stuff off the tapes and onto DVD.

[Tainan Mantis]

And does anyone know where it originated?

Most likely comes from MC Chan or his elder after going to HK.

Not part of the Lee Kwan Shan original series of forms.

The name Straight Form could be a shortened version of the 2nd hard technique, straight punch to the face.

The form does have that technique pop up several times.

The story about street fighting sounds highly unlikely.

Or, the name could have been added in the states, like some other WL forms eg
little mantis and big mantis lost their original names in the translation to English.

Kevin

www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

[yu shan]

I never really liked straight form, it always made me feel like I was doing a choy lee fut form and not mantis. In the same level, I think Little Mantis form has much more content. Is the original name for LM, Iron Door Bolt?

Anyone here train Big Mantis form? I understand BM is Wah Lums version of beng bu.

[Corwyn]

Most likely comes from MC Chan or his elder after going to HK.

Not part of the Lee Kwan Shan original series of forms.

The name Straight Form could be a shortened version of the 2nd hard technique, straight punch to the face.

The form does have that technique pop up several times.

The story about street fighting sounds highly unlikely.

Or, the name could have been added in the states, like some other WL forms eg
little mantis and big mantis lost their original names in the translation to English.

Kevin

www.plumflowermantisboxing.com


Kevin,

Loved to get some info on what is/was original to Lee Kwan Shan and where were you able to find the info.

Thanks in advance.

C

[ironfenix]

someone put up the list of lks original forms here a while back. Make a search.

jim - I train big mantis and can't see very much in common with Qi Xing BB, but the opening is similar to tai ji BB I think but that is about it. I will be going to florida next weekend. I will ask Shifu about it.

israel

[yu shan]

Hi Israel, hope all is well in South Texas. I will be in Tampa this weekend April 11th, are you going to be there? Who taught you big mantis? Where in Brandon is Shifu`s store?

I sent the list via pm to Corwyn, not sure if he has seen it yet.

[Yao Sing]

Straight Form has a very southern feel to it and even though it has common WL techniques it still feels a bit different. I've always liked this form myself but then I also play some CLF so I don't have a distate for the southern arts.

I'm also not a purist so I don't mind mixing the arts. It has some good apps plus I do my own thing half the time with all these set and moves anyhow.

ironfenix
I originally didn't see that much of a similarity between them but after digging into it more I can see a lot of similarity. There's also a couple of different versions of Big Mantis from what I've heard and hopefully someday I'll get a chance to see the video tape of one version that's in the possession of a mutual friend.

If you guys all get together for dinner or anything let me know and I'll try to hop down there.

[ironfenix]

Jim,
i am going up the weekend of the 17th-20th. Bad timing. Shifu's store is I think on kingsway in front of Earl Harris (i think) Taekwondo. There is a walgreens and a subway on the other corners of the street. Shifu taught me big mantis.

Hua lin - I also heard there were a couple of versions of Big Mantis. I still think it has similiarities to tai chi mantis bb.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uvHsXQNkMXw

thanks

[SoCo KungFu]

I train the big mantis form. I personally don't know Beng Bo however, but from what I've seen of the versions of the set, there are some techniques that appear in big mantis. Its just difficult to tell. From in Beng Bu a lot of them are done in a combination with other techniques. Where as in big mantis a lot of techniques (that I see cross-over) are done on one side, then the other, then moving into different techs. Did I make sense there?

If somebody could let me know how to post a vid I can try. I'm not very technologically savvy though. My vid recorder is the type that uses the mini tapes. What would I need to put them onto a computer and then to a host? I record all the forms I know so I can go back, cuz I forget a lot now that I'm not in FL anymore. I been meaning to put em all on the compy anyways in case something were to happen to my tapes.

I guess I will need to double check with my old mantis sifu to see what he says about it though. I don't think he would have a problem with it, its not like I haven't done the set at tournies anyways. But I would like to just as courtesy. I wouldn't want to flame any of that old FL mantis scene drama my sifu's way.

Its been a while since I had some criticism for my forms anyways.

[yu shan]

Yao

Better clarify... nothing wrong with CLF, an awesome style for sure. I just did not like the way straight form felt. I always liked little mantis. It must have been one of Chan Pui`s favorites, he did it a lot didnt he.

SoCo, I have a closet full of vhs I have to preserve, some of it is going bad.

[Yao Sing]

That's because of the southern feel it has to it, bit of a different flavor and power generation I think. The long moves probably feel odd to you

There are a couple of moves that I'm not real comfortable with but nobody said you have to like it all. It some have some of the typical WL deceptive moves where you appear to retreat but turn into an attack. I like that.

Little Mantis is a good form for sure but I'm not thrilled with the second half of the form repeating the first half, unless it's done on the other side like can be done with 7 Kicks. I feel like there's a hidden second half that's not available to the average student (read non-family member).

Although, mixing it with the second half of Say Lok seems to work well which is why it's done in competition and performances.

I have created a ling side for LM which I think should be the second half of the form (attacking in first half, defending in second half). At least then you get the counters for all the moves. :-)

[Yao Sing]

SoCo, I have a closet full of vhs I have to preserve, some of it is going bad.

Keep them away from magnets like speakers, TV's, computer monitors, etc.

[Black Mantis]

Hey, you guys seem to know a lot about this form. So far its one of my favorites. I guess I like it because I'm a big guy and can generate a lot of power from my waist. But here's my question: What is the windmill-looking technique trying to do? And for the closing (the part where you seem to be blocking upwards 4 times alternating hands) is that the defense for the "windmill?"

[Corwyn]

Hey, you guys seem to know a lot about this form. So far its one of my favorites. I guess I like it because I'm a big guy and can generate a lot of power from my waist. But here's my question: What is the windmill-looking technique trying to do? And for the closing (the part where you seem to be blocking upwards 4 times alternating hands) is that the defense for the "windmill?"

the windmill - explained to me - is a break out from a grab.
After pow choi, x block side wave the right hand is grabbed the fist pull in
the windmill is breaking the grab and the next 2 are striking down. then upper cut.

not sure about the scoops but I don't see it as blocks against the windmill as those are aimed at temple/ eye brow in a scraping knuckle kind of strikes like the middle of First Form (after rooster, toe kick, crescent kick) I'll have to ask.

[Yao Sing]

But here's my question: What is the windmill-looking technique trying to do?

There are a few possibilities here, from breaking a grab to throwing. Another app is breaking through the defense and striking.


And for the closing (the part where you seem to be blocking upwards 4 times alternating hands) is that the defense for the "windmill?"

That can also be used as a grab break as well as blocking defense. Something to keep in mind with moves like these two - you aren't locked into a specific number of times to repeat the move. In the form it might be done 2, 3 or 4 times but in practical usage it depends on how it's used and what's needed.

The problem I have with forms is they tend to lock people into one way of doing things when you should really be practicing the moves on their own and playing with variation and different usages.

Don't even think of asking Master Chan how many times to repeat these moves. :)

[Yao Sing]

Nobody found or posted a video yet? I hate when others can't join in the discussion but without at least seeing the form it really narrows down the conversation.

[Black Mantis]

You know, you guys are really opening my eyes to a few things. I never thought about using that technique as a defense, but it does make sense to me. Here is the hyperlink to straight form. The fellow doing it seems a bit rusty, but I guess it can serve as a good reference point.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ChannelID=70463535

[Yao Sing]

Ok, to set things straight here that's not you doing the forms right?

Now I realize this guy is a beginner and has a way to go cleaning this up but IMHO the sloppiness is partially a result of not practicing the individual techniques. I believe that's why they get lost in the forms.

Lot's of mistakes on both videos. Rushing through the form when you aren't ready to do it fast loses all the detail. These sets should be done one move at a time until you have a handle on the movement and what you're doing.

That's why drill are created based on the moves in the form. Each form should have a set of drills both single and 2-man to help put it all in perspective.

Well, that's my soapbox rant for this thread. Any specifics you want to discuss?

[mantid1]

video cameras, computers and the internet are great............untill you have students posting half assed forms on the net.....then they are not so great.

It doesnt matter if its WL, seven star, 8 step...this type of thing does nothing for a style.

No, its not my student but I feel for his instructor.....whoever it is.

[Yao Sing]

Well I was just hoping for a clip so others unfamiliar with Wah Lum can join the discussion. I never thought I'd regret it. :o

Whenever a WL thread gets started it's narrowed down to only those familiar with the style and that leaves out a large portion of the posters here. Just wanted to open it up for everyone.

Unfortunately the moves aren't done well enough to really get a good idea of what he's (supposed to be) doing.

I'm going to take a chance and say this guy is not learning from a certified WL instructor. It looks to me like someone with a year teaching in his backyard or students teaching students (my apologies if I'm wrong).

[Yao Sing]

mantid1
I don't think it's actually a bad thing having beginners post a clip but when you're beyond the initial form of a style I think you should look a bit better. I looked at both clips and he never should have gone on to Straight Form when First Form still needs a lot of work. But then that's just me and how I do things.

So what do the outsiders think? Are we too harsh on a noob?

[Black Mantis]

No, Yao, that's not me. I searched hard to try to find this form on the web and this was the ONLY clip I could find. I kind of feel bad for posting this kid's vid now. In retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have. Well its out there now.

Your idea about breaking the form down into individual techniques and making drills from them is a great idea. What I've been doing for the last few weeks is concentrating on the parts of the form that don't "feel" right. Here is a list of what I've been doing and the corrections I've made:

1. The first arm grab to elbow break, back elbow, spin to low block---I shortened my back leg a little (for balance) and used more waist to spin into the low block. Then using my momentum and energy from the waist, I power into an uppercut

2. On the first turn after the side wave punch & low block--I step with my right leg, plant, then power into a cum choy (before I was not leading with my footwork and it just felt weak)

3. After the double gwa choy--I added more snap by using the momentum from the low block into the inverted punch. I kind of see this now as me retreating and then suddenly attacking. Almost like a sneak attack.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm a little excited here.

[Yao Sing]

Great to hear your digging into the form piece by piece and making corrections. Don't worry about posting the link to the clip, he put it up in public in the first place. I'm sure he's proud of what's he's doing. Not his fault, he doesn't know any better.

One of the things I initially liked about Wah Lum was the deceptive combos and moves. That comes up a few times in the forms, appear to retreat and spin into attack.

Keep working it and holler if you have questions. But keep in mind always go with what your Sifu tells you first and make sure he's ok with you getting info from outside sources. If he's a good teacher he won't mind but he's your teacher, not me or anyone else on the Internet.

[Black Mantis]

Thanks, Yao.

[Corwyn]

I have to say that you guys were WAY TOO nice on the critique of the video.
Sadly there was one other video up, I think it was utube, that was even worse if you can believe it. I tried to find it but I guess the kid took it down.


In the kids defense, I've seen this in my previous style as well as in other things -
Kids tend to fall into faster is better mentality and by nature tend to lack some of the patience required to pay attention to all the monotonious details :D

I see this with my son too - He learns the steps of a new form in like 5 minutes :p and assumes that remembering the steps in order EQUALS knowing the form
(you have to give him more slack though, he's only 13, at 18+ he should have outgrown that) Getting him to SLOW down and pay attention to all the little things is the hardest thing.

I can also understand why one would want to post a video and I think this should be encouraged, but I think it also needs to be controlled. Schools should make/have some kind of policy about reviewing things being put up on public display I think. (just my 2c)

I know that I am not anywhere near good enough to be a representative of my style, probably not even for 8 chain punch :p, but I've aged and with age comes a more realistic level of self criticism that the young in general lack.

I try to do every form 3 ways.
1) what I call Tai Chi speed - really slow and focusing on every move, stance and hand position.

2) slow but with FULL power. So every punch kick or block is done with tension and power.

3) full speed. While it will look like the video for a long time I thing doing things as fast as you can really does show you whether you KNOW the form or just able to remember what comes next.
When you can put all 3 together you've learned the form.

[masherdong]

I try to do every form 3 ways.
1) what I call Tai Chi speed - really slow and focusing on every move, stance and hand position.

2) slow but with FULL power. So every punch kick or block is done with tension and power.

3) full speed. While it will look like the video for a long time I thing doing things as fast as you can really does show you whether you KNOW the form or just able to remember what comes next.
When you can put all 3 together you've learned the form.

This is how I do all my forms. I find that this helps me to LEARN the form and I actually find things that relate to another technique or concept. I know what you are saying about students thinking faster is better. All I can say is that "Speed Kills", if you do not know what you are doing. My old kenpo and kajukenbo instructors used to tell me, "go as fast as you can, but as slow as you need to so that you dont break good form and structure." Good words to live by.

[SoCo KungFu]

So I was looking at the recorder....its got a cord for AV to a TV...though not quite sure where its supposed to plug to as it doesn't seem to have the right receptacle on the recorder. And it has a plug for the power cord...and another one that I dunno what its for..says DV....so how do I get my vids to the compy?

Maybe I need to take it to radioshack and see if they got the stuff...

[Yao Sing]

What exactly do you have? You need either a video capture card installed in the computer or an external capture device that connects (usually) by USB to comp and S-Video or RCA jacks to video source (camera, VCR, etc).

[SoCo KungFu]

What exactly do you have? You need either a video capture card installed in the computer or an external capture device that connects (usually) by USB to comp and S-Video or RCA jacks to video source (camera, VCR, etc).

Ummm...I hate technology.....

I have the recorder...a cord with the red/yellow/white for the TV...the recorder is one of the ones that say digital but its mini tapes...JVC mini DV (I think I bought it around '04 or '05..so not THAT old).

Like I said its got a receptacle for the AV and another that says DV with a lower case "i" and a circle next to it (whatever that means)...I'm trying to find the book...but I think I threw it out with the last move because I was like...I won't need this anymore...yeah I know...self face palm:(

[yu shan]

My Shifu told me there is some mantis in straight form. One is the "windmill" mentioned, this is Fanche. Shifu says fanche is both forms and techniques, but a better way of saying is method. My teacher explains it as movement and application as opposed to complete forms. There is attacking with fanche and retreating with fan che.

As for the young man putting up his attempt, my guess he is a solo practioner. And like others have mentioned, maybe a friend has shared his training with him. The friend is not going to make corrections, just shared the movements and went home. Now he has no one to make corrections and teach him the real way. True you could easily rip him a new a$$hole for his poor training, but maybe this is all he knows. I trust he has no Shifu, let us pray he does not. I have to agree with Mantid, video can be good and can certainly be bad as well.

I`m a dinosaur in the video world, God knows. But I have set a goal for myself this year to get my teacher training video of him and I. And hopefully with his blessings, post things up here. I have made a note to maybe post some visuals of fanche training.

Yao, you sound like you are on the right track.

[Yao Sing]

"Yao, you sound like you are on the right track."

That's why I'm where I am today. :D

I was going to bring up the fact that Fanche is Mantis but the overall feel of the set is southern to me so I left it at that. As you know WL typically has a mix of both in the same set. There are only a few completely Mantis sets, most are a mixed bag.

It's all good to me and they fit together well enough that the transitions are smooth and there's no dramatic power generation conflicts.

I've got to get my Wah Lum version of Sup Baat Sow taped and posted up for comments. I've also been migrating WASP to a Wah Lum version. Still have to get to work on fusing Big Mantis and 7 Star Bung Bo too. Serious lack of ambition lately. That should be fun though.

This might be blasphemy to some of you guys but I find it interesting and enlightening plus it suits me. Since I'm not passing on any lineage I'm free to go with what works for me.

[yu shan]

Sounds like you are giving your kung fu a lot of thought Yao. I have been thinking about brushing off the cob webs from big mantis, sort of a side project. Lack of ambition? Come on now Yao, there is too much kung fu to train to be going thru this! ;)

[Yao Sing]

Oh yeah, SoCo KungFu, you don't have what you need to capture video to your computer.

You'll need a capture device, usually connect to PC through USB and video source through RCA jacks.

[yu shan]

Corwyn

I train the forms with your 3 step process as well. Getting to step #3 is important, tanglang is suppose to be done fast. Another course is break the form down into small roads. Lets say 3 - 4 moves in stop and start over again, then you go to the next few moves. I like to do this with the class, we move down the floor and get a nice cardio workout. The of course there are the many drills and applications to go over. You can easily spend years on one form.

[Frogman]

Straight Form
Straight form is a great form that’s a lot of fun, and can be very aggressive when done correctly. It is also one of the first forms learned once you reach the intermediate level. I remember when I first learned it, it seemed like it was long enough to warrant a lunch break. Of course now a days it’s over so fast I have to wonder if I left something out. The windmills or swim for life as I like to call it is one of the hard techniques. Over the top striking straight down on the head. It can be used to deflect an on coming attack to break thru to your opponents inside, or as mentioned attacking the head or shoulder area. When used against me in the past during sparing I would just move straight in close to my opponent which will neutralize this attack. Watch out for the cum choy!!!

The dude in the video sadly is wearing the uniform??? That doesn’t mean he is an official student, but if so his Sifu might want to go over first form a few more times then try straight form again. Both are extremely sloppy and I agree with the fact he posted it, he has to live with it. At the same time many of the mistakes he’s making are common hopefully not all at once but the lack of rooting is the first thing I see. Trying to get to the next move before finishing the one he’s on, and just swinging his arms around showing no intent of what he thinks he’s trying to do. I’m sure his basics are no different. I have seen students that even when they try hard and practice a lot they just don’t get it… No doubt this can be found in any style. For his sake I hope he realizes it one day and can make the necessary corrections. Unfortunately he probably thinks it looks great.

Black Mantis, Are you a WL student?

[Black Mantis]

Yes I am. This is my first taste of martial arts and I must say I love it so far. Its funny how these forms and even the info seems to be like an onion. You learn something on the surface, but then you see someone else do that same form and it looks different. Then you see sifu do it and it looks different still. The dynamic tension, the "slow & low" to build strength, the "all out" for cardio, the "slow, but powerful". Wow its just so many different ways to do a form and I love taking it apart and making it my own. I give out of breath right before the eagle caw to ping choy, but my endurance is improving. This form does seem long to me, but I look forward to when i can get through the whole form with intent and power and speed and still be able to stand upright when I'm done with it (minus the gasping for air). LOL.

[Frogman]

Black Mantis,
That’s awesome. You sound very enthusiast, straight form has a lot of different parts that can be worked on tweaked then worked on some more. We did forms review in class the other night and when I did SF I thought ok I got this… Yea, still needs some tweaking, lol.

On a side note,
1. The first arm grab to elbow break, back elbow, spin to low block---I shortened my back leg a little (for balance) and used more waist to spin into the low block. Then using my momentum and energy from the waist, I power into an uppercut

Step behind elbow turn uppercut, no block. Your left fist rests on the hip then fires right after the spin this might explain why you feel the need to adjust your stance. Still, I have found that most of my balance issues have been due to changing the height of my stance during transition, or incorrect foot placement. A factor that is difficult to recognize when you do the form but any one watching should be able to see it. Have your Sifu or a Sihing check your form.
I’m lost on the double gwa choy, I have chow choy double elbow, gwa, low hook, turn heun choy, gwa again, low hook, turn low chop, kick, kick. If this is the sequence you’re speaking of….? I love this series and you can generate a lot of power by pushing from the feet.

Being out of gas by the time you finish a form just means you were trying hard enough. In all it sounds like you’re on the right track and I’m glad you started this thread, I have not posted in years but this thread gave me something to think about.

Thanks,
Tommy

[Yao Sing]

He's talking about the move after the double elbows just before you turn with low block striking with Huen Choy. Then the Gwa, turn, chop block, Weong Chang Tui, Gwa May Tui. Sounds like you do single Gwa there instead of the double.

I'll reserve comment on the "grab to elbow break, back elbow, spin to low block".

[Citong Shifu]

You know, you guys are really opening my eyes to a few things. I never thought about using that technique as a defense, but it does make sense to me. Here is the hyperlink to straight form. The fellow doing it seems a bit rusty, but I guess it can serve as a good reference point.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ChannelID=70463535

Holly crap, what was that? Oh well, better luck next time...

[Black Mantis]

Frogman,
Step behind elbow turn uppercut, no block. Your left fist rests on the hip then fires right after the spin. . . I have chow choy double elbow, gwa, low hook, turn heun choy, gwa again, low hook, turn low chop, kick, kick.

I notice subtle differences in terms of how we learned the form. Instead of blocking, you uppercut (after the first back elbow) and you low hook instead of low block (in the sequence right before the huen choy). Small differences. We might have learned differently.

I would love to see serious version of this form. When I clean it up, maybe I'll post it on the site for you guys to critique.

[mantid1]

The two upper cuts sound like identical techniques out of Hung Ga forms.

I think the first one is called "fist punching the sky" and the second immedieate punch would be called "continuosly punching the sky" or "Lianhuan Tong Tian".

[Yao Sing]

Frogman,
Step behind elbow turn uppercut, no block. Your left fist rests on the hip then fires right after the spin. . . I have chow choy double elbow, gwa, low hook, turn heun choy, gwa again, low hook, turn low chop, kick, kick.

Hmm, maybe we misunderstood. Sounded like you had a block between the elbow and the Pow Choy (after the turn). Elbow, turn Pow Choy, Chow Choy. Not really all that critical in terms of usage.


I think the first one is called "fist punching the sky" and the second immedieate punch would be called "continuosly punching the sky" or "Lianhuan Tong Tian".

"fist punching the sky" (Di Tien Pow Choy) is the straight up punch found near the end of 16 Hands and at the end of Lok Low pt. 1. I don't think an uppercut would fit that description. I really wish we learned the names of these moves.

[Yao Sing]

If you do post a video of Straight Form I suggest you step (walk) through it and do each move clean and don't worry about impressing anyone with speed or power.

Impress us with clean, crisp moves instead.

[Black Mantis]

Will do. There is another sequence in SF that I love. It is the "long gwa choy" then uppercut then straight punch then high block to pek choy (all with the right arm as you quickly advance forward). What is the name of that "long gwa choy?" (as I so eloquently call it).

[Yao Sing]

Just a Gwa Choy as far as I know, no other name.

[mantid1]

Its called fist punches the sky in Hung ga. Not sure what wl would call it. But it is the same technique. The second technique in the hung ga is continuously punching the sky...I doubt that there are two punches straight up in a row like that.

It may not have a "poem" type of name in WL but it sounds like they are executed the same as mentioned above.

[yu shan]

Is there a correlation between WL and Hung ga? Also it was mentioned recently by a member the resemblance of WL`s "big mantis form" and Tai Ji Praying Mantis "beng bu". I heard from a friend that Chan Pui use to visit Chiu Chuk Kai. I wonder if Chan Pui picked up anything from CCK?

[yu shan]

Hmm, maybe I should change my member name from yu shan to thread killer.

[mantid1]

I have read that Chan wan Ching was a Hung Ga stylist before a wl practitioner. I think he also developed many of the forms (or at least was a big influence) for the wl taought in the states.

It would be my guess that is where the southern stuff comes from. I see some techniques that resemble choy li fut...but think the guys who make the clf conection are off base.

From what I have seen of the mok style it seems to resemble the appearance of Hung Ga. So, I think that is your southern connection. Really not so hard to figure out.

[ironfenix]

thread killer. LOL :p

[Black Mantis]

Is there a correlation between WL and Hung ga?

Just recently we were discussing the "iron finger" YEE used in some of the forms. It was explained to a group of us that when LKS moved to southern China, he incorporated some "Hung Gar-like" things into the forms because only southern forms were allowed in tournaments there.

[yu shan]

Never said it was hard to figure out, it is really plain as day. Just trying to make conversation.

Thread Killer

[mantid1]

I know you knew the hung ga connectin....just laying it out for others.

I didnt want it to look like you killed the thread:)

[Yao Sing]

So now it's Hung Gar in Wah Lum instead of CLF? Anyone care to lay out this connection?

I still haven't had the chance to see enough Mok Gar to make a determination but it makes sense that would be where the southern influence came from.

The problem is that LKS was a fighter by trade so anything he picked up that worked would get incorporated into his Kung Fu. I doubt he was concerned with style purity or lineage.

In fact he created his own style based on what he learned and used over the years so had no intention of carrying on any styles lineage. He did, however, pay tribute by stating where he got most of his stuff and incorporated it into the name of the style.

The big question is how much did the next generation of WL change the style. It seems that CWC probably made most of the changes with MC picking up where he left off and adding what he collected from the WL elders on his yearly China trips.

[Black Mantis]

I have created a ling side for LM which I think should be the second half of the form (attacking in first half, defending in second half). At least then you get the counters for all the moves. :-)

What is ling? My guess is that it is kind of like using 2 man drills? Help me out on this one.

[Yao Sing]

Basically it's the defend side of the form making it a complete 2-man set. I'm sure one of the experts can give a clearer definition.

If you get a copy of the 2003 (?) anniversary show tape you can see the ling side I created for 1st Form (not an impressive display, we didn't get much practice). At least it highlights some possible applications.

The intent was to showcase some apps plus prove it could be done. My partner, Art, only wanted to do the first half since we didn't get much practice time and it was all new to him (and me, I only had it worked out in my head) but while we were practicing out in the hall I convinced him to do it all the way through. Like I said, not trying to showcase any skill.

[shuaichiao]

somehow I rather doubt that there is any truth to that:rolleyes:

Actually that is where the name came from.

[shuaichiao]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ChannelID=70463535


I hate ragging on peoples forms but when I did wah lum that was an intermediate form. How did someone that bad even get to learn that form?

[Frogman]

:confused:
Ok, the double gwa choy is right after the double elbow… I had been doing it wrong I was doing a single gwa much like the second gwa before the kicks. I was thinking you were talking about double gwa similar to the end of first form, or seven mantis fist, “Yee Long carries the sun and moon.” So I found out it’s like in LOG only with a step. As for the no block that I’m sure of, no block after the step behind elbow high. Which is different then LOG, step behind elbow low. Variations in the movement yea ok, but not the technique, that’s why I had to go do some homework before putting my foot any further in my mouth.
Looking at the first half of SF and some of the CLF I’ve seen they do look strikingly similar, particularly the sequence above. I can not say one way or another if there’s some connection, I have to agree with Yao Sing. LKS was a traveler and could have picked up techniques from all over China.
2003, I remember that show and have the video, good stuff. It looked to me like you were just having too much fun. :D
So Yao, Hua Lin no more?

Thread Killer LOL!!!

[Corwyn]

Actually that is where the name came from.

I just have to call BullShido :rolleyes:

I am freely admitting that I could be wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe this without SOME evidence. !

I mean REALLY - here is what you are saying. (the way I understand it)

You are claiming that a person who has trained for some 30+ years wat the time he came to the US, was picked as the Grand Master of a style and entrusted to carry on this system was basically so weak willed and indecisive that he allowed some beginner gweilo to alter the style ('cause really waht's the difference between changing the name of a form or changing the form?) that he is grand master of and responsible for because the beginner student couldn't bother to understand his accent!? REALLY?!

And what about all the Chinese practitioners of Wah Lum who were and are still alive in HK and China!? They didn't notice this change and didn't comment on it?
The way I understand Chinese culture is that something like this would be a TREMENDOUS loss of face to MC. MC would just let this go, make up some excuse to all the students and people in China and HK to cover this up (in other words LIE to cover it up)?

The Cantonese character for straight is 直 which is how it is written in the current handbook as well as in ones I've seen from the past.
the Cantonese character for street is 街 they look nothing alike and sound nothing alike.
Also one of the requirments for 8 level is to know Seven Poem Fist Form which is about a 1/3 of Straight form BUT you have to know it in Cantonese.
So MC changed the name of a beginner/intermediate form because americans cound't say/understand the cantonese name or his accesnt, but he requires that you know this in Cantonese!?. I guess by the time he got some students ready for this test he got some back bone:rolleyes:

Again, please don't take my remarks as too flippant, but I am just having a hard time accepting this. You may not like this style or MC, but this seems to me to border on the insulting.

[Black Mantis]

:confused:
As for the no block that I’m sure of, no block after the step behind elbow high.

Yeah, I was wrong about the block after the high elbow. It is an uppercut. I think I misinterpreted it when first learned the form. Thanks for the info.

Is there a "poem" associated with SF, 1st Form, LOG, LM, or 16 Hands?

[shuaichiao]

First neither straight or street was the original name. Street form was a nick name given to it in hong kong because it supposedly contained techniques good for street fighting.

Second the Chans English was bad back then and straight and street sound fairly similar with a Chinese accent so the students didn't realize they were changing the name and the Chans probably didn't realize that they were changing it either until after they had taught hundreds of students and most of their American assistant instructors were calling it straight form so that's how every one learned it.

Third in a more traditional system the mistake may have been corrected when it was figured out but the carriers of Wah Lum don't seem to care how the system gets passed down. I lost count of how many moves they changed in various forms because a handful of people couldn't do it right so they simplified the moves so every one could do it the same. Chan Pui has made up dozens of new forms since he's been in America so he can travel around and charge people money at seminars. Some are completely made up and others he took an existing form and changed a handful of moves and called it something new. He's never been worried about things getting changed.

When I first learned that form my sifu Nelson Chan, who happens to be Chan Pui's brother and the second most knowledgeable wah lum teacher in America, always called it street form but the two sifus he had helping out at his school keep calling it straight form. I asked him why and that's what he told me. I can't make you believe it but I haven't heard anybody else give any other explanations of where the name came from and I can't think of any reason why he would make something like that up, can you?

[Yao Sing]

"I lost count of how many moves they changed in various forms because a handful of people couldn't do it right so they simplified the moves so every one could do it the same. Chan Pui has made up dozens of new forms since he's been in America so he can travel around and charge people money at seminars."

While it's true that moves have been either removed or modified in the forms taught in Wah Lum I don't think the claim of making up forms since he's been here is correct.

Every year MC returns to China (used to be 2 trips each year now just 1) and during those trips it's my understanding that he was picking the brains and memory of his seniors. This would be the source of any new forms added to the system in recent years.

Now if Nelson states otherwise then who am I to argue but I know for a fact (been to China twice with him) that he meets up with these seniors while sending the students off somewhere else. It's entirely possible, and makes sense, that he would be gathering up what he can before these guys leave this world and it's lost forever.

It's my understanding that he was chosen to be the GM because he was the youngest and had the time to collect all this info from the seniors. LKS taught in Shajeng for awhile then left and is known to have taught in Vietnam eventually returning to Shajeng to teach again.

Because of this different people learned different things so the style was fragmented over the years. MC, in becoming the GM, was tasked with collecting as much as he could and assembling it in a comprehensive manner.

I was also told by MC that LKS actually had 2 schools in Shajeng and taught different material at each school. One was fight oriented while the other was geared towards performances and physical training. This further fragmented the material.

So to the outsiders this might look like he just pulls forms out of thin air, hence the accusations of just making up forms. Until MC speaks out publicly on the history of Wah Lum and his past experiences (a book someday?) it's mostly speculation.

All I know is all the claims of shady dealings and dishonesty by MC have no substance and have perfectly logical and realistic explanations. I've never caught him in any type of lie or half truth. Ask him directly and he'll give you an honest answer. Seems to me what happens is that nobody will directly ask then everyone goes off speculating.

He also has a good collection of manuscripts that he interprets so that's another possible source of new forms. So is the real name of Straight Form actually Street Form? I don't know, it could be but does it matter? Wah Lum has 6 forms that are just numbered instead of having a name. Apparently names aren't all that important to him.

Also on the made up forms issue, I've seen a few forms performed at the Wah Lum school in China and they definitely resemble the forms taught in the US. At most he's modified some (or all) of the forms which is perfectly legitimate for a GM to do although I personally would like to learn the originals.

[Yao Sing]

Sorry for the rant but my experience with Wah Lum and Master Chan doesn't fit with the accusations generally thrown about trying to put both in a bad light. I think most of the time there's a valid explanation without having to resort to claims of dishonesty and misconduct etc.


That's why I usually speak out with what I know even though I'm no longer associated with the organization. However, I could be wrong and he's just scamming everyone but I'll need to see more concrete evidence before I change my tune.

Changing the name of a form, either on purpose or by way of misunderstanding, is not a black mark against MC. Apparently he changed Bung Bo to Big Mantis, Iron Door Bolt to Little Open Gate, and Luan Jie has a different name in Wah Lum (although I don't know what it is).

What he is guilty of is not coming forth with historical information. I was hoping a book would come out filling in some of the gaps but so far nothing. Sooner or later someone will put out an interview with him shutting down all the negative speculation.

Origin of some of the forms with their original names would be a good question to ask in that interview.

[shuaichiao]

I'm not necessarily trying to put them in a bad light. I just don't think they are the most traditional style which some people are ok with but they constantly talk about tradition. As far as the forms go if a grand master wants to make up a form or change a form that's ok I guess but when they change forms just because a few people can't do it right I get a bit upset. Their translation of kung fu is hard work but if somebody has a problem with something they don't make them work hard at it they just change it to make it easy for them.

Another thing is when they changed cha fa to moi fa he went around teaching seminars on moi fa claiming it was something new. All he did was change the opening and closing bows so it followed the plum flower pattern on the ground. The body of the form didn't change at all. That would be fine if he said he was changing cha fa and this is how we do it now but he claimed it was a new form and 2/3 of the people who took the seminar thought they were paying to learn something new but instead learned a form they already knew. I won't even get into how the original name had meaning for what the form is supposed to teach and now it's just another generic plum flower form.

[Yao Sing]

I agree with you about making the forms easier, I'd prefer to learn the original moves and keep working until I get it right. At least give me the chance before substituting an easier way. I've had my own list complaints and that one of them.

I've seen Basic Stick as it was when it was brought here and it's twice as long and more complex. Unfortunately it's his decision what and how to teach them so you have to take what you can get.

As for the Moi Fa seminar I'm not familiar with that one so I can't comment but my beef with the seminars is that they're always geared to the low end to get the largest turnout. Plus they're only part of the form which isn't too bad except that the rest of the form is never offered at a later date. Also more advanced seminars are rarely offered.

I had an advantage there being a student of MC at the Temple I got to learn the rest of these seminar forms later on along with a few other advanced/instructor students.

[yu shan]

If you guys dont mind, I would like to chime in. My experience with WL started with Shifu Art D`Agostino (Tampa school) and later handed off to Sean Cochran when he moved to Tampa and opened a school. IMO, both of these men where outstanding with there Wah Lum forms or any other kung fu form for that matter. Whenever I would visit the Temple for whatever reason I noticed the temple students doing forms differant than the way I was taught, and unfortunately at that time it was frustrating to me. Now years later I have learned that there are truly differant ways of playing the forms. Some masters know so many versions that they teach differant groups coming thru differant ways. Maybe a way of remembering and conservation of the form.

It is commendable of Chan Pui to meet with his elders to learn and collect as much about Hua Lin as he can. If he has a collection of manuscripts, very possible for all the forms that pop up along the way.

You guys all have great points for sure. Personally I did not like learning by seminars. I would and prefer to learn a form slowly, just give me a little and let me practice. Plus there is much more to forms than just doing the form, there is all of the content with in the form. But we wont go there.

Yao is a good source for Orlando temple training over the years. The Boston guys go way back to the early days.

Oh one more thing, I have had the pleasure to view "old" WL forms on video, man some of these forms are absolutely outrageous, does he not teach these anymore?

[yu shan]

Thread killer has struck again...

[shuaichiao]

Don't really think there was much left to say;)

[ironfenix]

Jim,
which forms were outrageous?

also iron door bolt is little open gate? I thought it was little mantis.

[ironfenix]

I still have much to learn master (thread) killer. I am still on the 35 chamber. :D

I heard CCK Pai An was called little open gate. To the moves resemble WL by any chance?

[TaichiMantis]

CCK pai an (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CCK+pai+an&search_type=)

From Robert Hui (mantis108):


Pai An (slap press) is a Praying Mantis system partnered drill. In CCK TCPM, this is known as Xiao Kai Men (little open gate). This version is shown with Da Kai Men (large open gate) as a connecting piece.

[Tainan Mantis]

I heard CCK Pai An was called little open gate. To the moves resemble WL by any chance?

Hi Isreal,
No relationship whatsoever.

CCK has little and greater open gate which are TJPM versions of Pai An.
Robert can give the most details on that.

WL Little Open Gate is form with not a single move from Pai An(but some good Mantis).

Kevin

[Oso]

SoCo, unless you're going to get into video transferring and editing in a seriousl manner you might save yourself some frustration and just take them someplace to be transferred to both digital files for posting and DVD for your personal collection.

that being said, I had some success with Dazzle products:


http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Dazzle/Dazzle+Video+Archiving/Dazzle+Video+Creator+Platinum.htm

they don't produce the unit I bought 5-6 years ago but that looks like it's current interation.

it's time consuming though


oh, for just general video and archiving/internet posting I am just using my Canon 7megapixal camera with a video option that can capture at 60 frames per second. the resolution isn't to great but it captures as .avi and immediately downloads to your computer as a postable file to youtube

all the clips on my page at youtube are from this camera:
http://www.youtube.com/user/xiongfa

there is some degradation in the transfer to youtube. when I take it straight to my dvd recorder the resolution is much better.

[Oso]

yu shan: I was wondering if Shifu would call that movement fanche. I saw some things I could relate to BBLH like 'pierce the ear/reach the sky' too.

[Tainan Mantis]

yu shan: I was wondering if Shifu would call that movement fanche. I saw some things I could relate to BBLH like 'pierce the ear/reach the sky' too.

Which movement?
Maybe this thread is too long.
I cant remember how we went from straight form to pai an and video transfer.
kevin

[Black Mantis]

For the closing in straight form (heel kick to lady horse stance w/grab to low chop), can anyone share the application of this series? I'm thinking a kick to the solar plexus or what ever is open, but then that's where I'm stuck. What are you grabbing. . .a foot? And are you chopping the knee? Help. . .please!

[Yao Sing]

Step back in Lady Horse avoiding a kick to the knee while palm blocking down with the left and, if lucky, grabbing ankle. Uncoil (for lack of a better description) from Lady Horse with knifehand to shin (hopefully hitting some nerves) then right foot stepping across into Lady Horse with right knifehand to throat (as taught to me).

Now my alternate app - instead of knifehand to shin you cup the calf and pull the leg taking opponent off balance then step across into Lady Horse with right knifehand to throat.

That last Lady Horse is in case you don't get a grab on the leg so when the leg drops down your right foot sweeps it taking opponent off balance then finishing with right knifehand to throat.

That's one of the things I like about Wah Lum. If you pay attention you'll find moves that come into play if the first move fails. In this case you didn't get the grab and leg pull so the next move, stepping back into Lady Horse, provides a similar result bringing the lead leg forward pulling opponent off balance.

[Black Mantis]

Thanks for the info. That makes sense. I have to admit, I've never thought about cupping the calf and pulling into the throat chop.

[Yao Sing]

Amazing what you find when you focus on the moves instead of the forms.

[Black Mantis]

You're right. Hey you might get a kick out of this. I used one of the techniques from Straight form during our self-defense class. I hadn't planned on it, but it just came out. My partner was attempting a front choke or shirt grab, but I saw it coming and immediately did the "double fanout block followed by a knee to the solar plexus". It was such an eyeopener because even though its not the exact technique from the form, I modified it for close range and it worked out perfectly. Funny thing is that we were actually going over another technique, but that one just came out of me w/o really thinking about it. Oh in case your wondering, the technique I modified was the move that comes after the double palm push in SF. -BM :D