hsing i beng chuan practice

[brucereiter]

here is some beng chuan practice from today. any constructive critique is welcome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZbMEBxWOr0


please add a clip of your hsing i practice.

[Samurai Jack]

First observation:

All that text, the opening, and then we get 2 seconds of a single Beng? Not that I should talk, I have no access to video recording equipment yet.

Second observation:

Your loose jacket obscures some of what you are doing, but it seems to me that your shoulders and hips are disconnected. To correct this, try tightening your abdomen as you step forward and Beng. Also reach into your fist a little more which will allow your joints to relax and elongate into the target while keeping the structure. In other words, you need to use your hips and shoulders more. Otherwise it looks good.

Now lets see you Beng with your left fist. :)

[brucereiter]

First observation:

All that text, the opening, and then we get 2 seconds of a single Beng? Not that I should talk, I have no access to video recording equipment yet.

Second observation:

Your loose jacket obscures some of what you are doing, but it seems to me that your shoulders and hips are disconnected. To correct this, try tightening your abdomen as you step forward and Beng. Also reach into your fist a little more which will allow your joints to relax and elongate into the target while keeping the structure. In other words, you need to use your hips and shoulders more. Otherwise it looks good.

Now lets see you Beng with your left fist. :)

that title did run long lol ... i have 36 or so videos out there if ya want to check out some other stuff i am practicing ...

thanks for your observations ... one thing am trying to understand is that connection ... my shoulders in that clip kept on moving a bit after my hips stopped.

you mean i have to beng with both hands? lol ... kidding, i just wanted to keep it very short with that clip.

here is a longer clip of linking form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1fpOAkhIEo

[Samurai Jack]

As far as the linking set goes, I'd advise you to slow down and really look at what you're doing. Deconstruct it, so to speak.

Make sure that there is not a single movement at any point in your form that is not engaging your hips in some way.

When you make the sharp jabbing movements trying to emit fajin, you are really just jabbing and poking.

Your Hsing-i should not be broken up where your hands move independantly from your body. I noticed this especially on your Lung Hsing Chuan on the transitions in your form. Your knee rises without being urged by the opposite leg. To do this correctly, you need to sink into the leg you are standing on by bending the standing knee. Also once again, I suggest tightening the abdomen strongly as the leg comes up. This will connect your shoulders and hips, and make that knee come up with great power.

EVERYTHING feet/hands, wrist/ankles, knees/elbows, hips/shoulders should be moving in unison. If one part stops, all parts stop. If one part moves, all parts move.

One of my teachers, George Xu once joked "If you move your eyebrow, it should come from the ground!"

Then again, he might not have been joking.

:)

[brucereiter]

thanks again for taking the time to post advice ...

[Samurai Jack]

Sure thing Bruce. I've always felt that helping each other out with our training is one of the few things on KFM that's actually worth commenting on.

Sadly, it's under-utilized on the forums, in large part, I think, because people tend to be sensitive about thier practice, and reluctant to be put under a microscope. With all of the trolls and such that tend to lurk, it's a vulnerable position to put yourself in. Thanks for having the humility to try and "step out of the box", taking the risk of putting yourself out there, and actually try to improve what you are doing.

It says a lot about the quality of your practice.

I look forward to your comments when I get up the nerve, and the equipment to show a bit of what I do.

[Toby]

Sure thing Bruce. I've always felt that helping each other out with our training is one of the few things on KFM that's actually worth commenting on.Isn't that what your teacher's for? Of course, it could help for people like Bruce who don't get to spend as much time with their teacher as they'd like.


Sadly, it's under-utilized on the forums, in large part, I think, because people tend to be sensitive about thier practice, and reluctant to be put under a microscope. With all of the trolls and such that tend to lurk, it's a vulnerable position to put yourself in. Thanks for having the humility to try and "step out of the box", taking the risk of putting yourself out there, and actually try to improve what you are doing.Personally, I've got nothing to gain from showing video of myself apart from either an ego check or boost. I get everything I need from my regular training, and I train for myself and myself alone. There's also the issue that some teachers might not approve of videos of their stuff being shown publicly. I doubt mine would approve, not that I really want to put up videos anyway. Conversely, I really enjoy seeing other people's videos, so I guess that makes me pretty selfish.

OTOH, I'm willing to train with other people, so next time you're in town Bruce maybe our schedules will coincide. Our systems and approaches differ greatly.

[Samurai Jack]

Isn't that what your teacher's for? Of course, it could help for people like Bruce who don't get to spend as much time with their teacher as they'd like.

Agreed on both points. I'd also add, however, that different perspectives can provide insight into various subtleties that might otherwise go unnoticed. I'm sure we've all had the experience of having a senior student in class or a teacher at a seminar telling us to do something that improved our art, only to find that our main teacher had been making the same suggestion all along using terms or methods we didn't understand.

That's why I love seminars and private "teacherless" workouts with other students. I know for a fact that my martial arts would not be what they were without the outside influences I've saught in the past. I don't have first hand experience, but it seems like the online video method Bruce is using could yield a similar effect.

Just a thought.

[Toby]

What if the outside influence has characteristics that are incompatible with your own? I guess from my perspective what I learn is so different from what I see in others' practice that I don't think there would be anything for me to gain from outside my system/line of teachers. So while I can learn a lot from senior students (as per your example), I doubt I can learn much from the critique of others external to my line. OTOH the opportunity to apply what I've learned with others is something of value, which is why I was going to hook up with Bruce when he was in my town.

[Samurai Jack]

Cool. Now you've piqued my interest Toby...

What line of Hsing-i do you practice?

[Toby]

I'm not very good at lineage or history stuff, but I guess I'm 5th generation Song Shi Rong (sp?) shanxi style??

[brucereiter]

hi ya'all,


outside ideas for me cause questions and questions cause me to analyze what i am doing from another perspective. question = good ...

one danger to "outside influence" is you might just change what you are doing with each bit of advice you get and often the advice conflicts with other advice you get.
you must make informed change if you do make change.

purity of style is not a concern for me. for example i am now learning gao bagua. i will learn the system and i will keep the influence from my other martial arts away as i learn it but in the end it will be another branch of what i already know. my old material will affect it and my new material will affect my old material.

if what you do is "incompatible" with outside influence i still think it is important to have martial exchange with people who know nothing of your approach so you can see strong points and weak points of what you do.

joy, health, self defense these are the main reasons i practice.

for me the biggest advantage i have had in my training is to touch hands with hundreds of people from other systems/styles from all over the world. this has for sure changed how a view what i was taught.

this is something that most people do not get to do.

[Toby]

purity of style is not a concern for me. for example i am now learning gao bagua. i will learn the system and i will keep the influence from my other martial arts away as i learn it but in the end it will be another branch of what i already know. my old material will affect it and my new material will affect my old material.You've left your old school? Gao bagua isn't listed on their curriculum IIRC?

[brucereiter]

You've left your old school? Gao bagua isn't listed on their curriculum IIRC?

it was time.

[Samurai Jack]

Toby:

Now I'm curious about those differences!

You see, I learned most of my Hsing-i from various students of Hsu Hung Chi, which seems to be the most common Hsing-i lineage here in the U.S.

Anyhow, Vince Black studied your style, along with Hsu's, and one of his students was my original Hsing-i / Pa Kua teacher.

All these years, and I didn't even know you did Hsing-i! I wonder if we might not be distant martial cousins?

Bruce:

I also picked up some of your Gao stuff from the same guys, but I havn't kept any of it.

Man, I'm wishing I lived nearer you fellas.

[Toby]

All these years, and I didn't even know you did Hsing-i! I wonder if we might not be distant martial cousins?I was predominantly wing chun when I was really active here. Since I went to lurker mode I've done a lot more hsing i, so not long really. My lineage AFAIK goes Song Shi Rong -> Song Hu Chen -> teacher's teacher -> teacher -> me. I might be wrong, never really asked, not my business, don't care. I've never met my teacher's teacher, but he's supposedly pretty amazing and epitomises internal MA, in that it's in everything he does, not just MA practice. My teacher according to him has a lot to learn despite doing MA for 40-something years and IMA (in this line) for maybe 16-18. I'm nothing compared to him, so whether I'll ever reach my potential I don't know, but the journey is supremely enjoyable. I like pain.

[brucereiter]

here is a longer clip of beng chuan practice from wednesday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

[Toby]

What's the intent in your timing? It appears at each step you:

(i) step front foot
(ii) strike
(iii) step back foot

in that order, starting and finishing marginally out of unison. Is that intentional? For me, hand and foot move together. If I were making two steps with one strike like you are in the clip, I'd be inclined to strike with the back foot so that they start and finish exactly in sync. I feel like I get a lot of power that way that I wouldn't get if the hand were striking alone.

My beng stepping is different to yours but sometimes I practice a freeform beng thing that's similar to yours where I do similar stepping but break it into two halves and each half has a strike. So a strike off a lead step with hand and foot starting and finishing together and a strike off the back foot with hand and foot starting and finishing together. An opening and closing step thing. I feel like I get more power off the back foot strike for sure, but the front foot one is OK. It is for when you're in a stance facing off and you need to move forward into the opponent and you'd rather use an opening movement (probably with the intention to follow up with a closing step to finish off with a heavier strike).

Also, what's the intent with the back hand as you strike? I like to use it to trap. So the front hand from a starting position (after a strike) moves vertically down in space relative to its starting position. Since your body is moving forward it appears to move backwards too in relation to your body. It stays in a fist with the wrist slightly ****ed and the hand ends up just in front of the quadricep on the lead leg if you were looking from the side (but still in line with the shoulder vertically). The application is if you were close to the opponent after a strike the front hand ****s slightly to hook the opponent's arm then moves down to force the opponent's arm out of the way to clear a path for the back hand to strike through.

I like your clips much, much more than others I've seen recently ;). Do you feel the hsing i fits in well with your tai chi and bagua? The smattering of bagua I've done recently has been very heavily influenced by my hsing i and I keep wanting to go back to hsing i shapes and mechanics.

[B-Rad]

I think you get the power from the push from the back foot moving forward, not the arrival. You'd want you back foot to push forward strong enough to arrive with the fist, but don't want to slow the strike down to co-ordinate with the back foot... the drive is more important than co-ordination, though as you approach maximum efficiency the co-ordination will come naturally. Does that make sense? I'm still a beginner level (and out of practice, lol) in xingyi quan too, so sorry if I don't explain myself perfectly. Just trying to think it out logically ;)

[Toby]

I definitely don't want the strike to land while a foot is in the air. You will struggle to strike with anywhere near as much power if both feet aren't anchored. I know what you mean by pushing off the back foot, I do that for sure. But I pretty much always time the strike with the foot landing. Even if I'm just standing mostly stationary and don't want to move forward I find myself shuffling the back foot in a bit in time with the strike. So yeah, for me I guess hand and foot coordination is important but I don't think of slowing the hand down to match the foot, but speeding the step up to match the hand ;). One of our idioms (not from hsing i but it applies as well) is hand and foot move together (also knee and elbow, hip and shoulder). We work on coordination and timing a lot. Power and drive come from the correct mechanics - no point trying to apply power when the structure is wrong.

[brucereiter]

What's the intent in your timing? It appears at each step you:

(i) step front foot
(ii) strike
(iii) step back foot

in that order, starting and finishing marginally out of unison. Is that intentional? For me, hand and foot move together. If I were making two steps with one strike like you are in the clip, I'd be inclined to strike with the back foot so that they start and finish exactly in sync. I feel like I get a lot of power that way that I wouldn't get if the hand were striking alone.
it is intentional, whether there is a better way or not maybe lol ...
to me it seems my front foot is landing at the same time as the strike. getting that timing down is one thing i have been trying to understand better.



My beng stepping is different to yours but sometimes I practice a freeform beng thing that's similar to yours where I do similar stepping but break it into two halves and each half has a strike. So a strike off a lead step with hand and foot starting and finishing together and a strike off the back foot with hand and foot starting and finishing together. An opening and closing step thing. I feel like I get more power off the back foot strike for sure, but the front foot one is OK. It is for when you're in a stance facing off and you need to move forward into the opponent and you'd rather use an opening movement (probably with the intention to follow up with a closing step to finish off with a heavier strike).

what is on the video is a evolution that is changing as my understanding develops.



Also, what's the intent with the back hand as you strike? I like to use it to trap. So the front hand from a starting position (after a strike) moves vertically down in space relative to its starting position. Since your body is moving forward it appears to move backwards too in relation to your body. It stays in a fist with the wrist slightly ****ed and the hand ends up just in front of the quadricep on the lead leg if you were looking from the side (but still in line with the shoulder vertically). The application is if you were close to the opponent after a strike the front hand ****s slightly to hook the opponent's arm then moves down to force the opponent's arm out of the way to clear a path for the back hand to strike through.

for me it is a trap or deflection ...



I like your clips much, much more than others I've seen recently ;). Do you feel the hsing i fits in well with your tai chi and bagua? The smattering of bagua I've done recently has been very heavily influenced by my hsing i and I keep wanting to go back to hsing i shapes and mechanics.
thanks ...

i think my hsing i, bagua and tai chi all go well together. when applying my stuff it is sometimes hard to say what this or that is since it will often have elements of all 3 arts. some people like to keep things "pure" i dont really care about that so much.

i would say tai chi chuan is my foundation and hsing i and bagua influence my tai chi chuan if that makes sense ...

[Baqualin]

it is intentional, whether there is a better way or not maybe lol ...
to me it seems my front foot is landing at the same time as the strike. getting that timing down is one thing i have been trying to understand better.



what is on the video is a evolution that is changing as my understanding develops.



for me it is a trap or deflection ...


thanks ...

i think my hsing i, bagua and tai chi all go well together. when applying my stuff it is sometimes hard to say what this or that is since it will often have elements of all 3 arts. some people like to keep things "pure" i dont really care about that so much.

i would say tai chi chuan is my foundation and hsing i and bagua influence my tai chi chuan if that makes sense ...

Hey Bruce,
I'm going to agree with all of the above....really good observations....remember from the spine....your punching between the front foot and back foot....your punch should hit the target exactly the same time the rear foot hits the ground....this will give you maximum power generation......the energy will come from the ground and up through the hips and spine....you will feel it when it's right.
Best to you as always,
BQ

[brucereiter]

Hey Bruce,
I'm going to agree with all of the above....really good observations....remember from the spine....your punching between the front foot and back foot....your punch should hit the target exactly the same time the rear foot hits the ground....this will give you maximum power generation......the energy will come from the ground and up through the hips and spine....you will feel it when it's right.
Best to you as always,
BQ

hello to ya ... hope all is good!

i showed it both ways. at the end of the clip the strike was with the rear foot ...

[Samurai Jack]

Bruce, it looks like your basic form is identical to mine, but your timing is very different. I'm agreeing with Toby's pointers, but without the ability to actually show you my form it's hard to discuss using just words. I'm going to ask my girlfriend if she might film me this weekend doing my Beng.

:D

[brucereiter]

Bruce, it looks like your basic form is identical to mine, but your timing is very different. I'm agreeing with Toby's pointers, but without the ability to actually show you my form it's hard to discuss using just words. I'm going to ask my girlfriend if she might film me this weekend doing my Beng.

:D

cool ... ... ...

[Buddy]

Hi Jack,
Vince briefly studied Tianjin Gao. Mostly he was Xu's student.
Bruce, are you with yusen? On the youtube page where your vid is Luo shows the wuxing. BTW I can't even got to "that other site" from home any more. Sad.

[brucereiter]

Bruce, are you with yusen? On the youtube page where your vid is Luo shows the wuxing. BTW I can't even got to "that other site" from home any more. Sad.

i am learning gao bagua from dave jones. my hsing i practice is from my old school with help from a few friends.

[Buddy]

I guess I'll see you over at the REAL Ef, but who did Mr. Jones learn from?

Buddy
PS Did you check out the Luo vid? I'm surprised it's up because it was just given to a few of us.

[brucereiter]

PS Did you check out the Luo vid? I'm surprised it's up because it was just given to a few of us.

yes i saved it ... nice one.