Kung Fu And Guitar

[FongSaiYuk]

I've noticed there are a few other guitarists on these boards. This really applies to any type of musician but I'm using guitar as an example since that is what I know. I was wondering what parallels you see between learning to be a guitarist and learning CMA (MA in general). I've been playing guitar for 14 years and my MA experience is only a few years so I'm obviously at different stages in each discipline. But I can already see similarities in both.
One thing I've noticed is the cyclical nature of both music and kung fu. You practice hard at something (which can become tedious), eventually it pays off and manifests itself and you feel wonderful about it. It's like a baby opening its eye's for the first time - a whole new world of possibilities. Other times you can enter a period where things become stale, you question your talent,motivation, etc. But then, often unexpectedly, something inspires you and feel rejuvenated all over again. The cycle seems to repeat over and over (hence the term "cycle" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). I hope this makes some sense because it's something I've always been aware of and kept track of.
I can think of many others but I'll just put this one out to start. After all, I'm supposed to be working /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
-FSY

PS. This is getting off topic, but feel free to post info. about your guitar playing too. (guitars,styles,etc.)

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Love the gitbox, play one all the time.

It is indeed comparitive to any other type of study.

remember how long it took you to build finger strength and dexterity? And how once you had that down, the rest came quite fluidly?

I find that Kung fu is like that. With the fundaments firmly in place, the rest starts to fit in. It's the fundaments that are seemingly the hardest part of the work.

Upkeep on fundaments is important in both guitar and kung fu. If you slack off on the basics, the intermediate and advanced knowledge will fail to work.
peace

Kung Lek

[FongSaiYuk]

"remember how long it took you to build finger strength and dexterity? And how once you had that down, the rest came quite fluidly?"

Yep. I reached a point when I had built up the attributes and my playing reached a new level. Then, when I began studying jazz guitar, I realized my attributes weren't as good as I had thought. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
This can again be applied to Kung Fu. You may think you've attained a certain level, but all of a sudden that level doesn't seem so great anymore. Constant evolution. -FSYY

[wisdom mind]

i have co-relations with my kf and my studio.

if ya dont know, im a producer that makes electronic music, so i have been putting a studio together for 4 years now. until last week, the system was incomplete, meaning i had all necessaery components to do the job, but no creative inside the studio due to tech issues. this is comparable to pak mei, you can know the movements, but if breathing is not proper, you gots nothing.

[Ky-Fi]

Yep, Im a guitar player/songwriter--been putting together my own bedroom studio for the last few years. I'm mostly into alternative rock, and I'm not that great a technical player--but there's definitely parallels between music and kung fu. I think the biggest parallel is that you have to play EVERY day for a number of years before it really comes easy and you can begin to really feel what you're doing. Also, in both music and kung fu, technical proficiency doesn't always equate with the depth of understanding or feeling of the art. I'm sure there's a lot of teenage metal rockers who are more skillful guitar players than Bob Dylan--but as far as the level of their art, there's no comparison. Also, in both music and martial arts, there's a lot of different facets of skill--some are skilled composers, some are skilled players, some are great teachers, some understand the history and theory deeply, some take things in unique creative directions,and some just have natural talent. Usually not everyone is equally skilled in all of these facets.
Although, I think one area where they're very different it that there is more of an objective standard present in kung fu (how well can you actually fight), whereas music is just so much more subjective.

[FongSaiYuk]

"Although, I think one area where they're very different it that there is more of an objective standard present in kung fu (how well can you actually fight), whereas music is just so much more subjective. "

True, music is very subjective. However, the goal of most improvising musicians is to be able to make music with a state of "no mind". Constantly flowing, changing, and adapting to the other people you're playing with (major parallels to MA there). It is an incredibly difficult thing to achieve and only the select few realize it on its highest level. Point is, you can practice by yourself till you're blue in the face, but until you get out and play (or spar) with other people it doesn't mean much. So in that regard it does come down to the end result - how well you can actually play. Did I make any sense?

[Ky-Fi]

FSY,

"However, the goal of most improvising musicians is to be able to make music with a state of "no mind". Constantly flowing, changing, and adapting to the other people you're playing with .."

You make sense, and that's very true, but again, with music being such a subjective art form, being an "improvising musician" wouldn't neccesarily be everyone's idea of the highest level of the art. I think what you said might be true from a Jazz perspective (I don't know much about jazz), but I'm not sure other styles of music put so much emphasis on improvisation. I don't know if Beethoven or Tchaikovsky were great improvising musicians or not, but what everyone is going to remember them by is their timeless compositions. I'm sure those guys weren't virtuosos on every instrument that they composed for, but in their heads they could hear how various instruments should fit into the grand scheme of their works. I agree with you that a martial artist has to build up skills by practicing with other people, but sometimes those classical composers did practice alone till they were blue in the face, because other people would have just interfered with their vision. I agree there's a lot of parallels between the two art forms, but with music, pursuing your own unique artistic, aesthetic vision for it's own sake can be justified, but using that justification for your martial arts isn't going to count for much after you've just been beaten up /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

[Ky-Fi]

OK, just to argue with myself a bit, I said that "how well you can actually fight" is one aspect of how good a martial artist someone is, and I'm not sure that's really true. Is the world's greatest kung fu master at age 108 less of a martial artist just because a 25 year old could beat him up? I guess what makes a "martial artist" great, just as what makes a "musician" great, is a very dificult thing to define.

"Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd; without innovation it is a corpse." --Sir Winston Churchill

[taichibear]

There's a bunch of us guitar players here. I must agree, that the basics need to continually be stressed in music, as well as kung fu. When you let down your basic training, the rest suffers, and you never achieve what you are capable of.

Namasté

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[Sam Wiley]

Playing bass guitar for me is kind of a zen thing. I like disappearing into the music. And when you find a great groove, everything else fades away for a minute, and the purity of the moment reigns.

I remember when I went from 4 to 5 strings. It didn't seem like it would be that much of a change from 4 strings, but that one string opened up entire worlds of possibility. It's like taking on a new martial art, where new techniques suddenly abound.

I play guitar and keyboards as well, but nothing else is like bass. It's just my thing.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

[HuangKaiVun]

EVERYTHING in music is an improvisation, including the most celebrated works of the classical literature.

That's why they call those works "compositions", as in "made up". It's just a matter of whether they made it up on the spot or not.

Even when you're playing a piece that you and everyone else has played, you're still creating it FRESHLY at that moment.


BTW FongSaiYuk, I'm a jazz guitarist myself.

Though my main instrument is violin (Juilliard trained), I play solo (no accompaniment) /combo jazz guitar sort of in the old Joe Pass method.

I play on a 1995 Gibson "Tal Farlow" (Custom Shop) archtop through a Polytone MiniBrute amp and Fender Ampcan.

I'm working on the "Guitar Grimoire" and Giuliani's "120 Studies" for right hand.

[Braden]

Every time I pick up a bass, I go through the bassline to "forty-six and 2." It's just so good, it makes me too lazy to learn anything else. Although the best part on that album is in "Eulogy" where it falls down to just bass and drums... I've been hesitant to figure it out in fear that over-analyzing it would make it lose some of it's appeal.

I play guitar mostly, although I also sing and play piano alot. I'm too much of a wuss to claim I really play bass. My preferred guitar is my les paul. No other guitar sounds full enough. Gotta run it through lots of crazy boxes though. I've spent way more on boxes than on guitars and amps.

I think I'm going to buy a Mooger Fooger tone filter tomorrow. But I've been saving up in hopes that the shop in town gets a 16-second delay in. Mmm... 16-second delay... I could wreak so much havok with that.

[Ky-Fi]

16 second delay!? Man, you'd forget what notes you had originally played by the time the delayed signal came back :).
My guitar is a Yamaha SA-1100 semi-hollow body electric, but I also love effects, and my beloved E-bow :). I was in the guitar shop a couple months ago and played a Yamaha nylon string classical acoustic-electric--wow, those nylon strings sounds so rich coming through an amp--that's a guitar I'd like to have.

[FongSaiYuk]

HuangKaiVun,
That guitar you have is a nice one! My jazz guitar is a cheap Epiphone Joe Pass model. Definately a budget jazz box.
To me, improvising is the most exciting part of music. It doesn't matter what "style" you play - making the music alive is what counts. Same with MA. You can learn the movements, forms, etc. and repeat like them a robot. Or, you can make them part of you and express yourself through them. When you're able to adapt and flow with the situation you've reached a high level. I can feel it with music (sometimes;)) but I haven't reached that point with MA yet.
BTW - HuangKaiVun, did "virtuoso" (the first one) blow you away the first time you heard it?)

[Sam Wiley]

I play a Cort Curbow model 5-string. One of the best sounding basses I have ever set my hands on. Not to mention handsome. I play a Washburn Lyon Les Paul look-alike when I play guitar. I use a LabSeries L2 100 watt head with a Traynor cabinet, and too many effects to list.

Braden, are you talking about songs off of Tool's last album? ("forty six and two ahead of me...") I can never remember the names of the songs, especially since I still haven't gotten that cd back from a friend of mine yet. Every time I'm over at his house I forget to take it home, even though he reminds me four or five times to take it with me. Anyway, if you are, can you send the tab or sheet to me, or just an email with the notes written? I've been wanting to learn those songs for about four months, but can never remember to get the cd back from Terry. By the way, I say go for the delay. I wrote a piece a few years ago using chorus, delay and echo guitar effects, but played it with a bass, and the recording sounded like there was a drummer, a rhythm guitarist, and another bassist in there. It was cool. I also did something similar with a guitar that had a faulty tuner, playing arpeggiated chords through delay and reverb (if I remember correctly), and it ended up sounding like it was recorded in a cavern. The whole time, the tuner was unwinding little by little and the end of the song sounded kind of sad and sick at the same time. Delay is just cool.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

[Braden]

Yeah man, 16-second delay is NUTS! I don't even know if I could make it sound cool, I just want it for the nerd value. I love my E-Bow too. You can make wicked noises with it. One of my favorite things to do is: e-bow to guitar to stereo delay; clean signal to chorus to amp#1; delayed signal to harmonist (triple output:+octave,-octave,clean) to phaser to amp#2. Set the delay at something formidable... you start playing and you get first just that single thick note from the chorused e-bow, and then after a couple seconds when the delay kicks in, the harmonist+phaser makes this huge wall of sound that fills it out. Then if you slide up, the wall of sound will follow you after a few seconds of hesitation. VERY cool if you're into obscure noises. :) You can set the harmonist to what key you're playing in and make it raise or lower the added two channels by fifths or seconds or whatever too.

I saw the Ghandarvas play once and the guitarist had a six string e-bow. *drool*

Sam - you bet I'm talking about Aenima! One of my favorite albums. You know they've got a new one coming out? It had better be incredible. "Forty-six and 2" is the "stepping through my shadow/coming out the other side" one; song #5. "Eulogy" is song #2. I'd go for the delay if they got it in, I already have 3 delays though. :) I'm a delay nut. You're absolutely right about the delay filling out your sound, you can sound like a whole band if you do it right. I use alot of octaves droning with the key I'm playing in or it's fifth too, and alot of chorus/reverb/phase effects... so you can bet it's a big beefy sound I'm after.

I can tab out some of the songs if you want. Which ones are you interested in? The bass parts or the guitar parts?

[Sam Wiley]

OH YES! Those are definitely the songs! The main one I'm interested in is "Forty-Six and 2." I had a vision that reminds me of the lyrics to that song after a qigong session one time, and the song has become sort of meaningful. I definitely want the bass, because that's my main instrument, but if you can transcribe the guitar parts as well, I won't say no to them. Actually, any of the songs on the album are cool with me. I've been waiting for their new album for a while as well. A Perfect Circle only partially filled the void. It just wasn't the same. Well, that could be because it wasn't the same band, but either way....

Do they make an e-bow for bass? I heard a band called PubliCastration, where the guitarist used one (as well as the little musical mechanism from a music box, which is pretty wierd) and they are so cool. I tried his e-bow on my bass, and it just wouldn't pick up, and I've never seen one advertised in the musical catalogs I've seen. The delay setup you mentioned sounds like it would be pretty atmospheric. PubliCastration was like that.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

[Ky-Fi]

Sam, I don't know if they make a special E-bow for bass, but I just tried mine on my bass with some success. It's definitely easier on the top and bottom strings, though--it's hard to make it pick up on the middle strings.

Braden, if you're really into delay, you should check out a violinist named Ed Alleyne Johnson. I saw him open for New Model Army once and he's really cool. He plays sort of classical/folk electric violin, and he plays one riff, then samples and loops it, and then repeats this a few times until he's got like five or six pieces playing simultaneously and he solos over it all. It sounds like an orchestra playing, and it's just him live, with no pre-recorded stuff or accompanyment.I think his first album was called Electric Purple Violin, or something similar.

[Braden]

Ky-Fi: Thanks! I absolutely love violin, so I'll be sure to check that out. New Model Army, eh? "I love the world" was my favorite song for a while, back in the day. ;)

[Sam Wiley]

Well, maybe I should go to a music store and try one there. There's probably a lot of factors, like pickups, string gauge (probably the main one), etc. I play mostly on the center strings (E, A, and D), though. So if it won't work on them period I guess I'm out of luck, at least until they develop one just for bass.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

Well, I found that MA was not good for the guitar playing. I'm not a good guitar player, but because of my kempo training, my knuckles got less supple. It's not good for the guitar playing,But great for hitting people, even on the hard bones ;-)

[HuangKaiVun]

Of course, "Virtuoso" is one of my favorite albums (even among Joe Pass albums).

I play guitar and violin the old-fashioned way: with minimal electronic support. Admittedly, I do use a guitar amplifier (no reverb, no pedals, no distortion, strictly clean channel).

Music - and kung fu - is beautiful enough as it is without having to "add stuff" to it.

[Kung Lek]

Hey fellow axemen.

I also found that learning to play on a standard acoustic guitar made ones playing stronger and clearer and when the move was made to an electrice guitar, ...man I could fly on an electric in comparison to acoustic.

Once again, this stresses the importance of fundamentals.

any of you players like the stylings of Stanley Jordan? He's a true guitar master. I think that if you look up guitar in the encyclopedia brittanica, there is a picture of Stanley Jordan right there at the entry! ha ha, awesome player.

Anyway, I like to play a good mix of stuff from blues to rock to jazz to fusion and funk. so long as it tickles my ear I will try to play it.

I like quite a bit of 60s and 70s folk music too.
oOOO, THAT MAKES ME FEEL OLD!

peace

Kung Lek

[FongSaiYuk]

Yep, learning to play the acoustic guitar greatly improves your clarity, dynamics, dexterity, etc. When you switch back to electric, (assuming your not playing Jazz with 14's on your guitar!) everything comes out easier. This of course is assuming that you treat the acoustic guitar like the completely different entitiy it is. Too many of today's players pick up an acoustic, put super light strings on and play it just like they play an electric.
I always thought of it like (bad analogy, sorry) the baseball player who's on deck warming up with the weight on the bat. When it comes off he's able to bring the bat around quicker. Similar sensation to when you switch from playing your acoustic to electric.

As to the person who said they bashed their knuckles and were unable to play guitar - I have never been one to condition my knuckles by punching hard objects. I truly believe there are many other less damaging and equally effective conditioning methods. I practiced an iron palm method for 1 year that had no effect on my playing. Actually my hands felt a little stronger!
--FSY

[Erasmus Lightstone]

Hi all,

I teach the guitar. I studied KF for 3 years but lost touch when I began to feel cheated. I plan to go back sometime this year. I'm also studying chiropractic(more hand movements). Glad to see that we all have similar passions

[HuangKaiVun]

Stanley Jordan is actually a jazz PIANIST who plays the piano two handed on the guitar.

As in kung fu, the ****genization of world culture has resulted in the standardization of jazz guitar methods and styles.

Modern players (with the exception of the Scofields, Martinos, Wilkinses, and Bensons) all sound uniformly alike due to study and recordings.

Back in the 1st half of the 20th century, guitar masters had no teachers. Each developed completely on his own, thus producing unique and individual styles.

I'm trying to develop my own style myself, though not for the sake of developing it.

As in kung fu, I'm seeking to maximize my inner potential - the mechanics of playing guitar is only a means to the end.

[FongSaiYuk]

"Modern players (with the exception of the Scofields, Martinos, Wilkinses, and Bensons) all sound uniformly alike due to study and recordings. "

Very true. In fact, I don't really listen to any new Jazz guitarists. I always find myself going back to Martino, Pass, Hall, etc... Eventually someone will come along and shake things up.
--FSY-

[Chris McKinley]

I started both the martial arts and the guitar at the same time 26 years ago. My students think I'm weird because I constantly make musical references when I teach Bagua and Kali. I played semi-pro and pro for a coupla years. My favorite analogy is regarding speed. In what seems a bit of a paradox, you cannot develop maximal physiological speed unless you start by slowing down. To get an Yngwie Malmsteen riff down, you first have to practice it as relaxed as possible in slow motion. If you don't do it slowly, you won't get the coordination. If you don't do it relaxed, you won't get the speed